Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Several weeks ago Sean wrote: I totally agree with your points. Please keep in mind that this was our first design. And that we are using an ID design that simply wasn't made for what this project has become. It was originally designed for a completely different usage scenario. I just came across this mail and thought of something: "not necessarily bad". The Java language and runtime was originally designed for a completely different usage scenario. The Oak language (renamed to Java in 1995) was designed to write the code in set-top TV boxes. Yet it went on to almost totally conquer the large corporation enterprise server market. Reuse can work well... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Well, if that is correct, I think I'll win an award for biggest foot in mouth. Still, 492 + (500 * (1 - defect%)) isn't a very large number. I guess only time will tell. mathew davis wrote: That is very exciting news. I look forward to more from Sean sortly. How did you find that article? On 6/15/07, Thomas Gstädtner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Some (pretty good) news: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/15/#20070615-gta01-factory-trip 2007/6/15, Gabriel Ambuehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Thursday 14 June 2007 23:45:29 Jonathon Suggs wrote: > > Well as far as we know (no *official* word) the models (GTA-01) that > you > > have actually are vaporware as far as we are concerned since they are > > not going to be mass producing them in favor of rolling out the > GTA-02's. > > Which assuming GTA-02 doesn't take much longer, would be a bad thing > why? > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
That is very exciting news. I look forward to more from Sean sortly. How did you find that article? On 6/15/07, Thomas Gstädtner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Some (pretty good) news: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/15/#20070615-gta01-factory-trip 2007/6/15, Gabriel Ambuehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Thursday 14 June 2007 23:45:29 Jonathon Suggs wrote: > > Well as far as we know (no *official* word) the models (GTA-01) that > you > > have actually are vaporware as far as we are concerned since they are > > not going to be mass producing them in favor of rolling out the > GTA-02's. > > Which assuming GTA-02 doesn't take much longer, would be a bad thing > why? > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Some (pretty good) news: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/15/#20070615-gta01-factory-trip 2007/6/15, Gabriel Ambuehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Thursday 14 June 2007 23:45:29 Jonathon Suggs wrote: > Well as far as we know (no *official* word) the models (GTA-01) that you > have actually are vaporware as far as we are concerned since they are > not going to be mass producing them in favor of rolling out the GTA-02's. Which assuming GTA-02 doesn't take much longer, would be a bad thing why? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
On Thursday 14 June 2007 23:45:29 Jonathon Suggs wrote: > Well as far as we know (no *official* word) the models (GTA-01) that you > have actually are vaporware as far as we are concerned since they are > not going to be mass producing them in favor of rolling out the GTA-02's. Which assuming GTA-02 doesn't take much longer, would be a bad thing why? pgp2FXhrprjMx.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
I understand your concern. I have at the moment 2 Neo1973 pre-production handsets in my hand. So if this is vaporware they are *really* going the extra mile to make it look convincing. Is there anything I can do to put your mind at ease? Will photos of opening it help, so you can see it really is not just a bunch of plastic? Call him from one of the handsets :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
I was the manager of software architecture for Gibson Audio. And among other things, was responsible for overseeing the software development for the Wurlitzer Digital Jukebox. Despite winning awards at CES as an innovative new product, management couldn't find the sweet spot in terms of manufacturing cost, market size and retail price. The last I heard, the Wurli was put out to pasture last year, so we'll never see it on store shelves. Gibson has taken down the Gibson Audio site, but there are still a few reviews from online magazines and the like: http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2011 http://www.stuffmagazine.com/gear/product.aspx?id=184 http://www.shows.soundstagelive.com/shows/avtour2005/sep09b/gibson_1.jpg http://www.shows.soundstagelive.com/shows/avtour2005/sep09b/gibson_2.jpg The last link is a picture of the custom remote control we developed for the device. If you look at the previous pictures, it might seem that there's an integrated LCD on the main unit. But.. that's not the case... it's just where the remote docks. For the benefit of list members, I'll share a few words of wisdom about product design. 1. For the purposes of building a custom mobile application, WinCE is not a completely bad operating system; but the tools really suck. 2. Get your WiFi chip vendors to prove they actually have drivers for your operating system and CPU. Better yet, get the source code for the drivers! 3. It takes three times as long if you outsource your software development to Elbonia. 4. If you outsource your software development, don't outsource your QA. In fact, doing "Test First" or "Test Driven Development" is a really, really good idea. This way you have an unequivocal tool to demonstrate you're getting what you ask for. 5. Consider DECT instead of WiFi. It doesn't have the same bandwidth, but power consumption and interference robustness seems to be a little better, and... 6. When you test your WiFi enabled device, ensure there's a microwave oven near where you're testing. (i.e. - don't forget to test your device in something approaching real-world conditions.) -Cheers -Matt H. On Jun 14, 2007, at 1:10 PM, Robin Paulson wrote: > On Wednesday 13 June 2007 16:26, Matthew S. Hamrick wrote: >> Gibson Musical Instruments, where we were designing what was >> effectively a custom PDA (don't ask.) guitar tuner? i have to admit, this caught my eye too and set me wondering. i know you said don't ask, butwhat? i'm intrigued ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Matthew S. Hamrick * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://hbmobile.org/users/msh/ 0xEAF9791E B075 933B B620 1374 4202 8A6E 8A9B 6141 EAF9 791E ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Well as far as we know (no *official* word) the models (GTA-01) that you have actually are vaporware as far as we are concerned since they are not going to be mass producing them in favor of rolling out the GTA-02's. Ole Tange wrote: I understand your concern. I have at the moment 2 Neo1973 pre-production handsets in my hand. So if this is vaporware they are *really* going the extra mile to make it look convincing. Is there anything I can do to put your mind at ease? Will photos of opening it help, so you can see it really is not just a bunch of plastic? /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
On 6/13/07, Duncan Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: denis wrote: > That is something I would like to know as well. The statement ist not > really clear and seems to be very misterious. I don't know. > In all honesty, has there ever been a really clear statement about this device? I'm beginning to feel (as was eluded to in others' posts months ago) that this is vaporware, and that we are just being strung along. Flame me all you want, but until I have something in my hot little hand how can I possibly be led to believe anything else at this point? I understand your concern. I have at the moment 2 Neo1973 pre-production handsets in my hand. So if this is vaporware they are *really* going the extra mile to make it look convincing. Is there anything I can do to put your mind at ease? Will photos of opening it help, so you can see it really is not just a bunch of plastic? /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
> On Wednesday 13 June 2007 16:26, Matthew S. Hamrick wrote: >> Gibson Musical Instruments, where we were designing what was >> effectively a custom PDA (don't ask.) guitar tuner? i have to admit, this caught my eye too and set me wondering. i know you said don't ask, butwhat? i'm intrigued ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
On Thursday 14 June 2007 13:21:36 Jim Thompson wrote: > parts on them... and the software is mostly done too! > > This is the only worrisome thing to me. Nobody has seen the software. Uhm the SVN is public and people actively run the software in qemu? pgpcczpM28B9b.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
On Thursday 14 June 2007 12:21, Jim Thompson wrote: > Attila Csipa wrote: snip... > >> And wait, and wait. And it never shows up. Then you get back on the > >> phone and eventually you find another parts distributor. Since then, > >> I've started taking delivery dates with a pretty large grain of salt. > > > > I have a story about an embedded automation device where in the end > > heavily modded Buffalo and Linksys wireless routers were used. Not bc > > they were all that well suited for the task, but because they were pretty > > available and had most of the parts already on them. People do funny > > things to meet deadlines :) > > parts on them... and the software is mostly done too! > > This is the only worrisome thing to me. Nobody has seen the software. Many people have seen the software, and some have even contributed apps. You could even try it yourself. Mokomakefile provides a relatively easy way to get the build environment, make the whole OpenMoko root image from the latest SVN sources, and run it in a qemu virtual machine customised to emulate the neo1973. just follow the instructions. > jim > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Attila Csipa wrote: On Wednesday 13 June 2007 16:26, Matthew S. Hamrick wrote: Gibson Musical Instruments, where we were designing what was effectively a custom PDA (don't ask.) guitar tuner? There were several delays, And wait, and wait. And it never shows up. Then you get back on the phone and eventually you find another parts distributor. Since then, I've started taking delivery dates with a pretty large grain of salt. I have a story about an embedded automation device where in the end heavily modded Buffalo and Linksys wireless routers were used. Not bc they were all that well suited for the task, but because they were pretty available and had most of the parts already on them. People do funny things to meet deadlines :) parts on them... and the software is mostly done too! This is the only worrisome thing to me. Nobody has seen the software. jim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
On Wednesday 13 June 2007 16:26, Matthew S. Hamrick wrote: > Gibson Musical Instruments, where we were designing what was > effectively a custom PDA (don't ask.) There were several delays, > And wait, and wait. And it never shows up. Then you get back on the > phone and eventually you find another parts distributor. Since then, > I've started taking delivery dates with a pretty large grain of salt. I have a story about an embedded automation device where in the end heavily modded Buffalo and Linksys wireless routers were used. Not bc they were all that well suited for the task, but because they were pretty available and had most of the parts already on them. People do funny things to meet deadlines :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia środa, 13 czerwca 2007, Werner Almesberger napisał: Shawn Rutledge wrote: What is your favorite hardware and software for doing this? We use our own debug board. You need a special flexible cable to connect to JTAG (*), and our board has the corresponding connector. Debug board has also space to solder standard 20 pin ATM JTAG header and after that can be used with other devices then Neo1973. My friend used it to debug his own AT91 based project. Heck, they could probably make money selling the debug board separately. Any embedded software developer probably has a ton of jerry rigged MAX232 level shifter dongles, USB<->232 dongles and USB<->JTAG dongles. This all in one design is sweet. cheers, Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
I agree. Different needs should be addressed in different products, not everything put into one device. I understand people wanting an OpenMoko keyboard phone. I don't have any real use for buttons on a touchscreen phone, though. (Other than for gaming.) Ortwin On 6/11/07, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sean Moss-Pultz writes: > >On Jun 11, 2007, at 6:36 AM, Miguel A. Torres wrote: >> >> * Integrated keyboard and directional pads are not mere luxuries, >> but necessities. They allow for safe one hand operation while >> reducing touchscreen stress. Touchscreens are fragile (get >> scratched easily, develop calibration issues over time, etc) and >> direct finger use requires constant cleaning. While some people regard an integrated keyboard as a necessity, there are also those of us who prefer no keyboard. One of the main reasons I never replaced my Samsung I-300 with a Treo is that you can't get a Treo without a keyboard. It's certainly good to consider those users who regard a keyboard as a necessity. Please don't forget the people who don't agree, though! >> Treo is an excellent design in terms of usability. It's been >> designed with real people in mind. For example, it provides >> hardware volume buttons and a switch to turn the phone mute. More buttons, on the other hand, I agree with -- particularly buttons that can be used as hardware volume control (notice that's not quite the same thing as hardware volume control buttons! On my Samsung, those same buttons work very nicely as scroll buttons when reading documents). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
On 6/13/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's all on the wiki. I beleive there is a page describing how to download and set up the debugger. It's standard gdb (for ARM of course) with the appropriate software (drivers?) for the Neo/USB interface card. I think the USB port shows up as a serial port. Come to think of it there may be no need for drivers. Yes I found this http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board so it makes more sense now. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Dnia środa, 13 czerwca 2007, Werner Almesberger napisał: > Shawn Rutledge wrote: > > What is your favorite hardware and software for doing this? > > We use our own debug board. You need a special flexible cable to > connect to JTAG (*), and our board has the corresponding connector. Debug board has also space to solder standard 20 pin ATM JTAG header and after that can be used with other devices then Neo1973. My friend used it to debug his own AT91 based project. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant Don't mud-wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty and the pig loves it ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
JTAG is basically a way to inspect and/or set each and every register on the processor, not only the registers you're familiar with from a programmer's point of view, but also registers that might hold the state of input and output pins, etc. Also since you can control each register and single step the processor, you can use JTAG to peek and poke to every address or register that the processor can access on other chips, e.g. RAM. This is slow, of course, but is very powerful. It's all on the wiki. I beleive there is a page describing how to download and set up the debugger. It's standard gdb (for ARM of course) with the appropriate software (drivers?) for the Neo/USB interface card. I think the USB port shows up as a serial port. Come to think of it there may be no need for drivers. Hopefully this will give you some pointers. If you want to become really popular, take notes as you go along, and then post them on the wiki as the start of a JTAG howto. Would be very useful. Michael On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Shawn Rutledge wrote: Would you post more details about this please? I have used JTAG for programming Atmel micros but am not yet very familiar with how it is used for "system exploration" when there are multiple devices on the bus. What is your favorite hardware and software for doing this? On 6/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Good points, Joe and Rod. To add to this, consider that this device has a JTAG port, and that you can buy the necessary interface card and cable for $150, and that the debugger is open source. So even with though the hardware was not promised to be open, we have tremendous visibility into it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Shawn Rutledge wrote: > used for "system exploration" when there are multiple devices on the > bus. We only have the Samsung MCU in the JTAG chain. > What is your favorite hardware and software for doing this? We use our own debug board. You need a special flexible cable to connect to JTAG (*), and our board has the corresponding connector. (*) In a phone, there isn't nearly enough space for one of the JTAG connectors you have on eval boards and the like. You could probably roll you own, though, and use some other JTAG adapter, e.g., the cute little Amontec JTAGkey. On the software side, we use OpenOCD. - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Would you post more details about this please? I have used JTAG for programming Atmel micros but am not yet very familiar with how it is used for "system exploration" when there are multiple devices on the bus. What is your favorite hardware and software for doing this? On 6/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Good points, Joe and Rod. To add to this, consider that this device has a JTAG port, and that you can buy the necessary interface card and cable for $150, and that the debugger is open source. So even with though the hardware was not promised to be open, we have tremendous visibility into it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Duncan... Let me just add to what Sudharshan said... There is a stunning amount of variability in the mobile device supply chain. I used to work for Gibson Musical Instruments, where we were designing what was effectively a custom PDA (don't ask.) There were several delays, including about 9 months where we were waiting for parts to arrive at the factory. You get on the phone and you send over a PO number and you get a contract for delivery of a certain part and then you wait. And wait, and wait. And it never shows up. Then you get back on the phone and eventually you find another parts distributor. Since then, I've started taking delivery dates with a pretty large grain of salt. BTW, I've seen prototypes of the Neo 1973, and it has a lot of parts under the hood. If you guess that one in twenty parts could be problematical, there's plenty of opportunity for delay. At some point I'll have to tell you my story about the Nokia 770 I eventually got. -Cheers -Matt H. On Jun 13, 2007, at 6:26 AM, Duncan Hudson wrote: denis wrote: That is something I would like to know as well. The statement ist not really clear and seems to be very misterious. I don't know. In all honesty, has there ever been a really clear statement about this device? I'm beginning to feel (as was eluded to in others' posts months ago) that this is vaporware, and that we are just being strung along.Flame me all you want, but until I have something in my hot little hand how can I possibly be led to believe anything else at this point? Dunc ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
On Wed, 2007-06-13 at 09:26 -0400, Duncan Hudson wrote: > In all honesty, has there ever been a really clear statement about this > device? I'm beginning to feel (as was eluded to in others' posts months > ago) that this is vaporware, and that we are just being strung along. > Flame me all you want, but until I have something in my hot little hand > how can I possibly be led to believe anything else at this point? > > Dunc Hi Dunc, Maybe this will change your mind, http://rene.rebe.name/photos/?p=/Computex/2007/img_2208.jpg Sure, the neo may get delayed, but it will definitely see the light of the day. I am basing my assertions on the fact, that actual devices have been created and circulated among people. I guess its pretty normal for things to get delayes. So fear not :D Just my 2 cents. Reggies Sudharshan S ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: R: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
On 13/06/07, Michele Manzato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: John Seghers Wrote: > Jonathon Suggs wrote > > There will always be complainers, that is just life...ignore them. > > It is, indeed, the complainers that I was commenting on. The one > that I quoted was complaining that stuff was being hidden from us > because FIC is working on new specs and hasn't shared them yet. Alright, here's the complainer. You know, complaints make projects grow (or fail) as much as compliments do. Both are useful, or needed. By the way I'm happy to read that you know what FIC is at. I don't. Indeed there's something going on in the backstage and we are intentionally keep out of it. I'm not saying that FIC hasn't the right to do so, they are a commercial company so their first targets must be market and sales. But this policy is going to impact the software part of it, which is meant to be open and to which we'd like to contribute to. Some months ago Sean suggested a few more fancy Openmoko-based devices. Well, fine, but how will this affect the evolution of the OpenMoko software stack? Are we really likely to make sensible suggestions (or sensible discussions) if we don't know the big picture? Sean is promising more focus and resources, but on which targets? That are the problems. I'm really looking forward to the next month and the coming back of the Openmoko leader. Until then, we're just a bunch of friends fancying around a wannabe phone. Nicely put. -Pete --- sorry about pm... Br Michele ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Will Openmoko ever see the light of day? Was Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
denis wrote: That is something I would like to know as well. The statement ist not really clear and seems to be very misterious. I don't know. In all honesty, has there ever been a really clear statement about this device? I'm beginning to feel (as was eluded to in others' posts months ago) that this is vaporware, and that we are just being strung along. Flame me all you want, but until I have something in my hot little hand how can I possibly be led to believe anything else at this point? Dunc ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
R: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
John Seghers Wrote: > Jonathon Suggs wrote > > There will always be complainers, that is just life...ignore them. > > It is, indeed, the complainers that I was commenting on. The one > that I quoted was complaining that stuff was being hidden from us > because FIC is working on new specs and hasn't shared them yet. Alright, here's the complainer. You know, complaints make projects grow (or fail) as much as compliments do. Both are useful, or needed. By the way I'm happy to read that you know what FIC is at. I don't. Indeed there's something going on in the backstage and we are intentionally keep out of it. I'm not saying that FIC hasn't the right to do so, they are a commercial company so their first targets must be market and sales. But this policy is going to impact the software part of it, which is meant to be open and to which we'd like to contribute to. Some months ago Sean suggested a few more fancy Openmoko-based devices. Well, fine, but how will this affect the evolution of the OpenMoko software stack? Are we really likely to make sensible suggestions (or sensible discussions) if we don't know the big picture? Sean is promising more focus and resources, but on which targets? That are the problems. I'm really looking forward to the next month and the coming back of the Openmoko leader. Until then, we're just a bunch of friends fancying around a wannabe phone. Br Michele ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, Joe Friedrichsen wrote: On 6/12/07, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OpenMoko (the registered organisation, separate from FIC the company who is creating the first piece of hardware designed for the OpenMoko software) never promised open hardware. They promised open software (the OpenMoko software, which is being developed *completely* in the open), and they gave some dates that they *expected* (not promised) FIC (the hardware company) to be ready to sell some hardware (the Neo1973) that the OpenMoko software runs on. Yes, most of the hardware designs and schematics aren't distributed, but there are shadows of scraps here and there thanks to Werner ( http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/usb-pullup/new.spice ). The Neo appears to be a well-assembled collection of chips and parts not designed or fabbed by FIC. They took some Legos and made a remarkable product. It's like a capstone design project on steriods. Given that this phone is meant to be opened and tinkered with, I imagine that schematics could be drafted without too much strain. The phone could then be //conceivably// reproduced. However, I don't know at this point how valuable open hardware would to an individual be since silicon and copper aren't that easily modified or produced at home. Quality surface-mount soldering and RF noise are just a few of the smaller hurldes to jump over. Software has the advantage for now :-) Those simple text files are just too easy to change! Until we get our own fab-labs, Joe Good points, Joe and Rod. To add to this, consider that this device has a JTAG port, and that you can buy the necessary interface card and cable for $150, and that the debugger is open source. So even with though the hardware was not promised to be open, we have tremendous visibility into it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Joe Friedrichsen wrote: > Given that this phone is meant to be opened and tinkered with I'm not sure that that is actually the case. (Sean, please correct me if I am wrong in the following - I will be pleasantly surprised if you are able to do so). Yes, the OpenMoko software is meant to be fully open and tinkered with. No doubt about that at all. I haven't read anything in the OpenMoko "manifesto" (i.e. Sean's public slides on what OpenMoko is all about) about the project having a specific goal of designing the hardware to be open and tinkered with in general. Yes, there are instances where it seems that hardware design decisions have been made to allow access to standard interfaces like SPI, Serial, JTAG, for the knowledgeable community hardware developer to use (concidentally, those same interfaces are the ones that the original device hardware designers need access to anyway, so it could easily be just a happy by-product of good engineering), but that's very different from a phone that is "meant to be opened and tinkered with" in a general mass-market sense of that term (which may not be what you intended - I'm just making the distinction clear rather than disagreeing with you specifically). All I'm saying is that it is very clear that OpenMoko (the software) is meant to be fully open, and we should complain loudly if we see anything about the software which is not open (both in the code itself, and the development processes which create and maintain that code). It is not clear at all that the same holds for the hardware (and the processes required to design, manufacture, market and sell that hardware). We should be pleasantly surprised if *any* of that is open, cause that is not what was promised by the OpenMoko concept. We certainly (in my opinion) do *not* have the right to complain when something related to the development of the hardware by FIC (as opposed to the development of the OpenMoko software) is not open. Open hardware development was never promised - only open software development was promised. You can bet that in the future there will probably be totally closed hardware designs which run the totally open OpenMoko software. -- Rod ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Michele Manzato wrote: Don't get me wrong, I can guess (some of) the reasons behind the plain words. But then I wonder whether there is really any transparency in the development of Neo/OpenMoko? I can sympathize with you to an extent. I fully support the concept and goal of OpenMoko. If I didn't, then I would have to say that I like one distro but not another. On the other hand, I also feel a bit frustrated at the more-than-intermittent silence and side-stepping updates that do get to the list. However, I don't think the problem lies with FIC, or at least entirely with FIC. My frustration comes from my expectations not being met, so then I start to look at my expectations. Are they reasonable? Are they justified? The folks at FIC haven't outlined how much information they will share, nor how often they will share it. And so when hearing 'OpenMoko is a libre OS for a phone, and the Neo will be the first to run it,' I projected my ideas of a FLOSS project onto FIC. That is not necessarily the case, though. Given that launching new hardware is incredibly difficult, and predicting its development time line is even more difficult, I was surprised to read concrete dates at all. I'm more familiar with after-the-fact milestone-based updates: * "We've just finished the latest revision and we're waiting for a few new prototype units." * "The new units are here, but they're buggy. We're chasing the bugs down." * "The bugs have been dealt with, we're ordering some new units." and so on. Perhaps this is a learning experience for everyone. FIC can ease some of the tension in the community by outlining what they intend to be 'open' in their processes. What they will share, how much, and how often. They can also relieve some of the pressure on themselves by not forecasting specifics. And the community can give FIC the benefit of the doubt. The software is real, it is open, and it is available now. Real working units exist and are being used. The community can also allow FIC to change its behavior. I suspect that FIC was excited at the beginning and shared information prematurely and that we took that as par for the course. So now that they have learned a bit about launching a new product and interacting with 'the bazaar', I imagine that that FIC will adapt as they see fit. Please allow them to grow :-) It wouldn't help them in any way to alienate the developer community, but I don't think they are actively trying to do that. Their recent inaction could speak to growing complacency on their part, but I don't suspect that either. I only see misleading expectations, partly from FIC's opening strategy and the assumed definition of 'open' in regards to product development. See you on the pre-order list, Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
Joe Friedrichsen wrote: > Yes, most of the hardware designs and schematics aren't distributed, Actually, I hope that we can release at least schematics of the debug board and the immediate surroundings of the MCU. There seems to be a lot of red tape surrounding all this, though :-( > but there are shadows of scraps here and there thanks to Werner ( > http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/usb-pullup/new.spice ). Oh, that one. Don't worry, that never made it into hardware. What we currently have (in GTA02) is the circuit depicted in gates.fig In general, developers/werner/ is my personal junkyard, and I'm a messy person. So please don't jump to conclusions when sifting through it. - Werner -- _ / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /_http://www.almesberger.net// ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
On 6/12/07, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OpenMoko (the registered organisation, separate from FIC the company who is creating the first piece of hardware designed for the OpenMoko software) never promised open hardware. They promised open software (the OpenMoko software, which is being developed *completely* in the open), and they gave some dates that they *expected* (not promised) FIC (the hardware company) to be ready to sell some hardware (the Neo1973) that the OpenMoko software runs on. Yes, most of the hardware designs and schematics aren't distributed, but there are shadows of scraps here and there thanks to Werner ( http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/usb-pullup/new.spice ). The Neo appears to be a well-assembled collection of chips and parts not designed or fabbed by FIC. They took some Legos and made a remarkable product. It's like a capstone design project on steriods. Given that this phone is meant to be opened and tinkered with, I imagine that schematics could be drafted without too much strain. The phone could then be //conceivably// reproduced. However, I don't know at this point how valuable open hardware would to an individual be since silicon and copper aren't that easily modified or produced at home. Quality surface-mount soldering and RF noise are just a few of the smaller hurldes to jump over. Software has the advantage for now :-) Those simple text files are just too easy to change! Until we get our own fab-labs, Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
OpenMoko != Neo1973 (Was: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics))
kenneth marken wrote: > but the neo seems to be designed from day one to be made from virtually > of the shelf parts. FIC is just the hired factory (like how apple do for > their stuff or microsoft does for the xbox's), they hold no copyright or > patent on the neo iirc. so if FIC comes up short, one can take the parts > and find some other factory willing to have a go at it. FIC owns the hardware design. They are not just a hired factory. You can be sure that they very much *do* hold copyright and perhaps patents on the hardware design. And that has *nothing* to do with the openness of OpenMoko. OpenMoko is a software distribution, not a hardware design. OpenMoko (the registered organisation, separate from FIC the company who is creating the first piece of hardware designed for the OpenMoko software) never promised open hardware. They promised open software (the OpenMoko software, which is being developed *completely* in the open), and they gave some dates that they *expected* (not promised) FIC (the hardware company) to be ready to sell some hardware (the Neo1973) that the OpenMoko software runs on. People on this list should remember that "OpenMoko" is a piece of software which has been freely available and developed in the open for months now, not an FIC hardware device (which may or may not be delivered by the hardware company on a particular date). When there are multiple devices available from multiple manufacturers, this will all be much clearer. But in the meantime, please keep the distinction between OpenMoko (a piece of software) and the Neo1973 (just one of the hardware platforms on which OpenMoko can run) clear. If you want to complain about Neo1973 delays, then call them Neo1973 delays, not OpenMoko delays. If you want to complain that FIC doesn't share the hardware circuit diagrams with you, then tough - they never promised to, and I expect they never will. If you want complain about OpenMoko, then get your terminology correct first, cause OpenMoko exists today in an SVN repository that anyone can download and contribute to. If you think you can get an openmoko-compatible hardware platform to market quicker than FIC can, then please do so (either by reverse-engineering an existing closed phone, or creating your own open phone). See if you can beat FIC to the punch! OpenMoko is about the software, not which hardware platform happens to appear first. -- Rod (not employed by FIC or OpenMoko) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Milan Votava writes: You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Better to work on a machine in spite of the manufacturer rather than with the manufacturer? I don't follow. The day FIC wants me to sign an NDA or claims ownership of my code, I'll agree with the "slaves of capitalists" comment. I don't see any prospect of that happening. im guessing its something like: better to have a device out there in the hands of people that you can free, then a device with high hopes that never shows up in many hands. or whatever... to me it sounds like a donkey chasing a carrot on a stick. the stick will always be just out of reach. unlike the PC market, where commodity parts are everywhere, and if you dont like what dell, HP and other sell preassembled you can do your own, the mobile market is about locked down devices that, after its made, cant change no matter what. hell, my guess is that by the time xda-developers.org is done, HTC have a new and better device out that people will flock to. one that the xda firmware cant work on, or at best will have some nasty flaws. and so the cycle starts again. at best one is squeezing a couple of extra years out of a obsolete device. but the neo seems to be designed from day one to be made from virtually of the shelf parts. FIC is just the hired factory (like how apple do for their stuff or microsoft does for the xbox's), they hold no copyright or patent on the neo iirc. so if FIC comes up short, one can take the parts and find some other factory willing to have a go at it. until we get home assembly kits for mobiles, thats the second best option. hell, it got a usb port that can run in host mode. can someone point me to a windows smartphone that have a similar option? it means that with the right drivers one can plug virtually any usb device into the neo and have it work. sounds to me like it can be molded into doing a lot of things. maybe if one could get it to charge of a solar cell it can act as a mobile modem for usb connected sensor ecquipment or similar. but in the end i dont care what hardware it runs on as long as it has a code core thats open to anyone to modify after their liking. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Milan Votava writes: > >1/ 99% of this thread is about an unrealistic things to be >implemented on a non existent (underpowered) device. Who in the World >cares about things being discussed in this thread? People wants to >use their pones, to make calls, send sms/mms/emails. I'm being tired >to read over and over about these obscure requirements and ideas >posted here. Animations like on an iPod? Buy an iPod! I care. I don't really care if nobody else does. I really don't care what "people" want. What *I* want is the potential that PalmOS had at one time, for me to be able to not just make phone calls, but also to develop and install what I want. Being able to listen to music without buying a second device will be nice, but it's not really the point. >2/ I believe we are going to be a victims of a huge manipulation. >There is a company like FIC. There are some adventures like Sean who >are looking for their fortune. What's the way? To offer to companies >like FIC a product like Neo with reduced costs. Why the costs are >reduced? It's simple. There is bunch of people around the globe >waiting to spare their time to help. You just have to pretend to be >one of them I think my eyes are wider open than you think they are. Yes, FIC gets what you're suggesting out of the deal. But I get what I asked for in the first paragraph of my response. I understand that, and I regard it as a fair trade (for myself, anyway). The idea that somehow I'm better off working on reverse-engineering a phone so the company doesn't get any benefit... escapes me. I've done enough reverse-engineering, thanks. I'd prefer to never do it again. >3/ As you can see, the 'openness' of this project is at least in >question. As time goes by, there is more blah blah then some concrete >information. There are some vague information about GTA1/GTA2 but >overall, the entropy is going to 0. Yes, I'd like more details on exactly where the problems are. But this is so far ahead of what I've seen from any other compnay, I'm not terribly worried. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Milan Votava writes: >You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). > >Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make >machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Better to work on a machine in spite of the manufacturer rather than with the manufacturer? I don't follow. The day FIC wants me to sign an NDA or claims ownership of my code, I'll agree with the "slaves of capitalists" comment. I don't see any prospect of that happening. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
On 6/13/07, Milan Votava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (sorry for my english) I'm subscribed for this this thread for about 6m now. I don't want to be rude but: why so long? you must be interested or you would have long since left 1/ 99% of this thread is about an unrealistic things to be why are they unrealistic? think big implemented on a non existent (underpowered) device. Who in the World non-existent? lots of hardware units around - sun has one, they think it's useful/important. developers have them. it's a step. we've seen hardware revs already. there will be more. openmoko isn't limited to neo, it will expand cares about things being discussed in this thread? People wants to me. lots of others use their pones, to make calls, send sms/mms/emails. I'm being tired to read over and over about these obscure requirements and ideas couldn't give a monkey's how obscure it it. you want to do what mainstream does, fine. i want to do this stuff. i like doing it in itself, and it's useful to me as well. freedom to tinker posted here. Animations like on an iPod? Buy an iPod! no. too expensive. too closed. unreliable. apple and their users are smug gits. can do better 2/ I believe we are going to be a victims of a huge manipulation. maybe. i'm after a product. if i have to jump through hoops, that's fine as long as i think the steps are worthwhile There is a company like FIC. There are some adventures like Sean who are looking for their fortune. What's the way? To offer to companies like FIC a product like Neo with reduced costs. Why the costs are reduced? It's simple. There is bunch of people around the globe waiting to spare their time to help. You just have to pretend to be one of them how are they pretending? they've been a lot more open than most phone manufacturers? they're smart - give a little, take a little. sharing 3/ As you can see, the 'openness' of this project is at least in some of it, possibly. do not judge all of it on recent happenings. i'm confident sean will give more details when they pass the current roadblock question. As time goes by, there is more blah blah then some concrete information. There are some vague information about GTA1/GTA2 but overall, the entropy is going to 0. not vague. we know the new proc, the accelerometer details, wireless chipset and some other stuff. more will come out, i would expect it to be incremental. see the bigger picture ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2007 01:42 schrieb Robin Paulson: > > are we duplicating work? familiar is 6+ years old, i'm sure they must > have some good ideas that can be used? maybe we can make openmoko a > fork from their project? > Robin, please read down to the bottom of the status page. All modern GUI environments (openmoko,gpe,opie and qtopia/opie2) are supported. Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
damn, wrong address, sorry oleg. repost. twice can someone at openmoko fix the auto-generated reply-to fields on this mailing-list? every time this gets me On 6/13/07, Oleg Gusev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: HTC phones are commodity hardware that anybody can buy right here and right now. Linux on HTC Universal supports WIFI and UMTS _today_ ( http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/UniversalStatus ) Unfortunately many people prefer to whine about the features of future unreleased devices, instead of writing some productivity software useful for the end-users ;-) two words: microsoft tax impressive specs though as a sidenote, the familiar project which they are using on these devices probably overlaps with openmoko. http://familiar.handhelds.org/ are we duplicating work? familiar is 6+ years old, i'm sure they must have some good ideas that can be used? maybe we can make openmoko a fork from their project? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
(sorry for my english) I'm subscribed for this this thread for about 6m now. I don't want to be rude but: 1/ 99% of this thread is about an unrealistic things to be implemented on a non existent (underpowered) device. Who in the World cares about things being discussed in this thread? People wants to use their pones, to make calls, send sms/mms/emails. I'm being tired to read over and over about these obscure requirements and ideas posted here. Animations like on an iPod? Buy an iPod! 2/ I believe we are going to be a victims of a huge manipulation. There is a company like FIC. There are some adventures like Sean who are looking for their fortune. What's the way? To offer to companies like FIC a product like Neo with reduced costs. Why the costs are reduced? It's simple. There is bunch of people around the globe waiting to spare their time to help. You just have to pretend to be one of them 3/ As you can see, the 'openness' of this project is at least in question. As time goes by, there is more blah blah then some concrete information. There are some vague information about GTA1/GTA2 but overall, the entropy is going to 0. Milan At 01:02 13.6.2007, Andrew Becherer wrote: My mother told me to never feed the trolls but when I see an obvious misrepresentation of the opensource and free software movements I have to pipe up for posterity and the google cache. Not to knock the work of people like cr2 (who based on a Google query is an awesome resource for Linux on proprietary handsets) but xda-developers.com is an entirely different ball of wax than OpenMoko. I once had the opportunity to meet with Peter Brown (the executive director of the Free Software Foundation). Peter told me that one of the greatest things about Richard Stallman is his role as a reference point for all of us involved in opensource and free software. We can each measure how "free" we are based on where we place ourselves as compared to RMS. He is THE free software benchmark. That said Richard Stallman stated his only objection to the Neo1973 and OpenMoko was the closed source GPS code. The Neo1973 and OpenMoko are just about as free as a phone can be and it is my understanding that the GPS code can be replaced with free software thereby making it a "free" phone! Let's compare this to the xda-developers site. Currently on the front page of xda-developers is the following news item: "For years and years, xda-developers has offered access to a collection of ROM images for 'our' phones. These images, often released by mobile carriers or device resellers, contained a version of the Microsoft Windows Mobile OS (or one of its predecessors) as well as customization added by one or more OEMs in the chain." FIC with its Neo1973 hardware and OpenMoko with free software are creating a truly open platform. Trading in hacked up images of proprietary software distributed against the terms of the licensing agreements isn't the type of freedom of which I would want a point. Should the Neo and OpenMoko come to pass they will be a true alternative to proprietary phones. FIC and the all developers who participate in the development of OpenMoko should be applauded and remarks such as yours should be ignored. -- Andrew Becherer Undergraduate, Computing and Software Systems University of Washington, Tacoma ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2007 00:31 schrieb Steven **: > > Seems like xda-developers.com is focused on reverse engineering cell > phones. Specifically because the company that made those phones wouldn't > give them the information. And that's better than FIC how? > HTC phones are commodity hardware that anybody can buy right here and right now. Linux on HTC Universal supports WIFI and UMTS _today_ ( http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/UniversalStatus ) Unfortunately many people prefer to whine about the features of future unreleased devices, instead of writing some productivity software useful for the end-users ;-) Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
(correction) Because is clear who is a foe and who is a friend Sorry, you are already too blinded to understand... At 00:31 13.6.2007, Steven ** wrote: Seems like xda-developers.com is focused on reverse engineering cell phones. Specifically because the company that made those phones wouldn't give them the information. And that's better than FIC how? FIC is giving us the information! How is that bad? -Steven On 6/12/07, Milan Votava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Becose is clear who is a foe and who is a friend Sorry you are to blinded to understand... At 00:31 13.6.2007, Steven ** wrote: Seems like xda-developers.com is focused on reverse engineering cell phones. Specifically because the company that made those phones wouldn't give them the information. And that's better than FIC how? FIC is giving us the information! How is that bad? -Steven On 6/12/07, Milan Votava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Seems like xda-developers.com is focused on reverse engineering cell phones. Specifically because the company that made those phones wouldn't give them the information. And that's better than FIC how? FIC is giving us the information! How is that bad? -Steven On 6/12/07, Milan Votava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
You are all going to become slaves of capitalists (Sean on behalf of FIC). Better to support guys from xda-developers.com (like cr2) to make machines like HTC Universal a real free phones Milan At 22:51 12.6.2007, you wrote: Jonathon Suggs wrote > However, suggesting that people > shouldn't be expressing their interests about features no matter how > niche/picky/whatever is just plain wrong. I specifically said, in my summary paragraph: >>By all means give them feedback, tell them your desires, etc. But please >>don't complain at them when they let you know that the GTA02 isn't the end >>of the line. That they're working on follow-up models. That they didn't >>put your must-have feature in the next rev. Nothing in my comments suggested that people shouldn't give them suggestions. Just don't expect them all to make it into the phone or complain when they don't. > > There will always be complainers, that is just life...ignore them. It is, indeed, the complainers that I was commenting on. The one that I quoted was complaining that stuff was being hidden from us because FIC is working on new specs and hasn't shared them yet. > However, my > frustration (if you want to call it that) is the missed delivery date. > They set a concrete date, missed it, and then just told us "soon." I > don't think that is very professional. Missed dates are not exceptional in this industry... - John ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
Jonathon Suggs wrote > However, suggesting that people > shouldn't be expressing their interests about features no matter how > niche/picky/whatever is just plain wrong. I specifically said, in my summary paragraph: >>By all means give them feedback, tell them your desires, etc. But please >>don't complain at them when they let you know that the GTA02 isn't the end >>of the line. That they're working on follow-up models. That they didn't >>put your must-have feature in the next rev. Nothing in my comments suggested that people shouldn't give them suggestions. Just don't expect them all to make it into the phone or complain when they don't. > > There will always be complainers, that is just life...ignore them. It is, indeed, the complainers that I was commenting on. The one that I quoted was complaining that stuff was being hidden from us because FIC is working on new specs and hasn't shared them yet. > However, my > frustration (if you want to call it that) is the missed delivery date. > They set a concrete date, missed it, and then just told us "soon." I > don't think that is very professional. Missed dates are not exceptional in this industry... - John ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
First, the mailing list is to be used for ideas and communication. You are absolutely correct that FIC will have to make the final decisions about what is and isn't included. However, suggesting that people shouldn't be expressing their interests about features no matter how niche/picky/whatever is just plain wrong. FIC will hopefully use some of the ideas (and mailing list reaction to those ideas) as a mini focus group to determine what features users will really want/use. There will always be complainers, that is just life...ignore them. Overall, I thought your post was full of fluff (and somewhat out of left field). On the other hand I was someone who posted my disappointment with the amount of communication that has been given back to us lately. Do they have to keep us in the loop? Absolutely not, most companies aren't even near this open about future products. However, my frustration (if you want to call it that) is the missed delivery date. They set a concrete date, missed it, and then just told us "soon." I don't think that is very professional. I was going to put my disclaimer about how I am 100% for FIC and OpenMoko, but its on my original post so don't think that I am trying to bash Sean and the gang. I'm just disappointed at how the last three months have progressed. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
I agree definitely with the parts that I excerpted below from what John said, and would further like to point out what I personally see as one of the major strengths of this project: To show the world and other device makers that there can be a market for open mobile devices/phones. Of course this phone isn't going to be perfect or meet everyone's needs, but a successful neo means a better chance for OTHER open devices on which to run openmoko/software of one's choosing, beyond the revisions made to the neo. One of the things I've seen while lurking on the list is the propensity for people to want Neo to be *exactly* what they want for their particular niche market/use. Whether or not it has a camera. Whether the accelerometers in GTA02 are accurate enough for inertial nav. Etc... . . . This project is a unique collaboration between a manufacturer and open source. Let them do what they need to do to make the manufacturing decisions for their company. And thank them for the access they are giving within an industry that is extremely closed. By all means give them feedback, tell them your desires, etc. But please don't complain at them when they let you know that the GTA02 isn't the end of the line. That they're working on follow-up models. That they didn't put your must-have feature in the next rev. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Openness (was RE: Concern for usability and ergonomics)
> Michele Manzato wrote: > > Don't get me wrong, I can guess (some of) the reasons behind the plain > words. But then I wonder whether there is really any transparency in the > development of Neo/OpenMoko? One of the things I've seen while lurking on the list is the propensity for people to want Neo to be *exactly* what they want for their particular niche market/use. Whether or not it has a camera. Whether the accelerometers in GTA02 are accurate enough for inertial nav. Etc... When you design hardware by (large) committee, you don't get good results. Case in point is the Space Shuttle. Its design is a very non-optimal compromise between NASA's requirements for a manned medium-lift reusable shuttle and the US Department of Defense's requirements. NASA would probably have used a lifting body design had the DOD not required the ability to divert a planned Edwards landing to White Sands or one of the other secondary landing spots *after* reentry. And that's only one of the many, many compromises that made the shuttle more expensive and less capable than it could have been even with 1970's technology. Openness and transparency does not equate to everyone having a say in what the final feature set of the hardware is. It does not mean everyone on this list gets a vote. Nor does it mean that we get minutes of every meeting about new designs or even frequent status reports. What it does mean, to me, is that when they decide the feature set for the -03, -04, etc. handsets, that we know once they have crunched the features and cost and form factor to a point where they think they have something to plan for. It means this project where we have access to the entire phone stack, and are able to modify the software to tailor the phone to our niche markets. It means not having to get permission from the manufacturer to build an app for the phone (Hello Apple!). It means having a direct line of communication to the people actually building the thing for technical answers. I've been writing games on cell phones for four years. I'm now creating a lower level of software to be integrated at the OEM layer. I've seen just how hard (or impossible) it is to get this kind of support from the rest of the industry. This project is a unique collaboration between a manufacturer and open source. Let them do what they need to do to make the manufacturing decisions for their company. And thank them for the access they are giving within an industry that is extremely closed. By all means give them feedback, tell them your desires, etc. But please don't complain at them when they let you know that the GTA02 isn't the end of the line. That they're working on follow-up models. That they didn't put your must-have feature in the next rev. - John ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: R: Concern for usability and ergonomics
On 12/06/07, Michele Manzato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well I don't like this statement at all. Don't get me wrong, I can guess (some of) the reasons behind the plain words. But then I wonder whether there is really any transparency in the development of Neo/OpenMoko? What does it mean, being silent and talking in riddles seemingly for our own benefit? What about the collaborative FOSS effort, community involvement, etc? Br Michele I agree entirely regarding transparency etc. but there are two distinct problems here. FIC's responsibility to their employees and FIC's commitment to Neo/Openmoko. Re-allocation in large companies can be tricky and stressful for everyone involved if not handled properly. I imagine Sean is working hard to get everything he feels he needs to really pick up the pace on the Neo hardware. That said, given that we accept the Neo hardware is not vapourware, the community has plenty to be getting on with in terms of Openmoko. Lets keep faith in the passion that Sean has shown so far and keep providing encouragement for the core team. -Pete Good things come to those who wait :) -Messaggio originale- Da: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Per conto di Sean Moss-Pultz Inviato: lunedì 11 giugno 2007 19.01 A: Miguel A. Torres Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oggetto: Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics > [snip] > > Believe me when I say that we are working on new stuff that will > address these issues. I have been quiet for the past few months > because of some major internal re-allocations and new events. > Within about a month we should be more or less finished and > emerge with far more focus and resources. > > Until then, please accept my sincere apology for not being able > to keep up with all your comments and questions. Internally all > my time and energy is being used now. > > -Sean > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
R: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Well I don't like this statement at all. Don't get me wrong, I can guess (some of) the reasons behind the plain words. But then I wonder whether there is really any transparency in the development of Neo/OpenMoko? What does it mean, being silent and talking in riddles seemingly for our own benefit? What about the collaborative FOSS effort, community involvement, etc? Br Michele -Messaggio originale- Da: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Per conto di Sean Moss-Pultz Inviato: lunedì 11 giugno 2007 19.01 A: Miguel A. Torres Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oggetto: Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics > [snip] > > Believe me when I say that we are working on new stuff that will > address these issues. I have been quiet for the past few months > because of some major internal re-allocations and new events. > Within about a month we should be more or less finished and > emerge with far more focus and resources. > > Until then, please accept my sincere apology for not being able > to keep up with all your comments and questions. Internally all > my time and energy is being used now. > > -Sean > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
On Monday 11 June 2007 19:00:42 Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: > I totally agree with your points. Please keep in mind that this was > our first design. And that we are using an ID design that simply > wasn't made for what this project has become. It was originally > designed for a completely different usage scenario. Will you be able to give basic information (like form factor) on those new devices at the time GTA-01 will ship? That would certainly be hopeful for many of us... pgpdDPGPuP0r4.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
2007/6/11, Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Believe me when I say that we are working on new stuff that will address these issues. I have been quiet for the past few months because of some major internal re-allocations and new events. Within about a month we should be more or less finished and emerge with far more focus and resources. It looks for me the GTA01 and GTA02 line will be discontinued soon and we will meet GTA02 hardware in new case, with some hardware buttons (green/red phone, two function keys and 5-way joystick) and stylus holder. Just my guess, of course. -- Tomek Z. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Krzysztof Kajkowski schrieb: > 2007/6/11, Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> Believe me when I say that we are working on new stuff that will >> address these issues. I have been quiet for the past few months >> because of some major internal re-allocations and new events. Within >> about a month we should be more or less finished and emerge with far >> more focus and resources. >> >> Until then, please accept my sincere apology for not being able to >> keep up with all your comments and questions. Internally all my time >> and energy is being used now. > > So, I guess this means there will be no release of GTA-01 (at least in > one month) or the amount of devices will be reduced... Is it correct? > > cayco > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > That is something I would like to know as well. The statement ist not really clear and seems to be very misterious. I don't know. Regards, Denis ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
2007/6/11, Sean Moss-Pultz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Believe me when I say that we are working on new stuff that will address these issues. I have been quiet for the past few months because of some major internal re-allocations and new events. Within about a month we should be more or less finished and emerge with far more focus and resources. Until then, please accept my sincere apology for not being able to keep up with all your comments and questions. Internally all my time and energy is being used now. So, I guess this means there will be no release of GTA-01 (at least in one month) or the amount of devices will be reduced... Is it correct? cayco ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
Sean Moss-Pultz writes: > >On Jun 11, 2007, at 6:36 AM, Miguel A. Torres wrote: >> >> * Integrated keyboard and directional pads are not mere luxuries, >> but necessities. They allow for safe one hand operation while >> reducing touchscreen stress. Touchscreens are fragile (get >> scratched easily, develop calibration issues over time, etc) and >> direct finger use requires constant cleaning. While some people regard an integrated keyboard as a necessity, there are also those of us who prefer no keyboard. One of the main reasons I never replaced my Samsung I-300 with a Treo is that you can't get a Treo without a keyboard. It's certainly good to consider those users who regard a keyboard as a necessity. Please don't forget the people who don't agree, though! >> Treo is an excellent design in terms of usability. It's been >> designed with real people in mind. For example, it provides >> hardware volume buttons and a switch to turn the phone mute. More buttons, on the other hand, I agree with -- particularly buttons that can be used as hardware volume control (notice that's not quite the same thing as hardware volume control buttons! On my Samsung, those same buttons work very nicely as scroll buttons when reading documents). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Concern for usability and ergonomics
[I'm CC'ing the community list because there's lots of points here that go well beyond hardware.] On Jun 11, 2007, at 6:36 AM, Miguel A. Torres wrote: Hi, Like many of you, I'm following the project with great enthusiasm. This will surely demonstrate companies in the sector that open source is not only a possibility, but probably the only real path to follow in the long term. While the philosophy of the project is wonderful, the actual product that will reach customers - the neo1973 - is less than impressive. Not because of hardware specs, GTA-02 seems impressive already by packing almost everything except for a camera (which I personally believe should be included). My concern goes for the most basic aspect of any consumer product: usability and ergonomics. I'm absolutely astonished on how this fundamental aspect has been largely overlooked by everyone. For example, the phone main interface is a touchscreen, yet the case of the phone wasn't designed to hold a stylus. While I'm aware that at this stage the phone is largely intended for development only, I think it is time to re-consider this important aspect of the project. I can assure you two things. 1) We cannot change this now with GTA02. 2) We have more hardware in the works that will definitely address these concerns. We all share them. More concisely: * Integrated keyboard and directional pads are not mere luxuries, but necessities. They allow for safe one hand operation while reducing touchscreen stress. Touchscreens are fragile (get scratched easily, develop calibration issues over time, etc) and direct finger use requires constant cleaning. * To think globally. Asian languages use ideograms so it's reasonable that asian users find limited use for an integrated keyboard, but western users are the opposite. All administrative and technical commands (say, C++ code, Internet URLs, etc.) are written in latin characters and benefit greatly from easy typing. * It is possible to include all in the same package. Palm's Treo line has been including full keyboard, directional pad and touchscreen in a very compact package for years. * Over all, the philosophy should be to give the user options, allowing freedom to choice. Treo is an excellent design in terms of usability. It's been designed with real people in mind. For example, it provides hardware volume buttons and a switch to turn the phone mute. I totally agree with your points. Please keep in mind that this was our first design. And that we are using an ID design that simply wasn't made for what this project has become. It was originally designed for a completely different usage scenario. Believe me when I say that we are working on new stuff that will address these issues. I have been quiet for the past few months because of some major internal re-allocations and new events. Within about a month we should be more or less finished and emerge with far more focus and resources. Until then, please accept my sincere apology for not being able to keep up with all your comments and questions. Internally all my time and energy is being used now. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
