Re: Building a new totally free phone
by violence. With this in mind, I do wonder why the OsmocomBB work isn't appropriate as a base for your work? Can you explain this a bit more why it isn't? For two reasons: Is it just that they are quite a long way from producing a complete firmware for a phone? That's one reason. The other is a personal/moral one. The leader of that project is Harald Welte, and I have strong reasons to suspect that many of its other major contributors are also members of that elite clique of people who are sitting on copies of the Closedmoko hoardware and not sharing. I'm not going to contribute to a project led by such people. I think it's a pity not to work with such people. They are still working to increase user freedom, albeit with more respect for NDAs than they perhaps deserve (as Joerg mentioned, ability to continue to get good employment doing free software likely plays a role, which is a pretty good reason). But anyway, I'll cheerlead and celebrate (and hopefully find a way to help) any work towards a fully free phone, and your focus on producing a handset is great. Nick ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
joerg Reisenweber jo...@openmoko.org wrote: I invite you to visit me at my home If you meant it seriously, you might as well give your address or GPS coords (by unicast if you prefer) - but I highly doubt that you meant it seriously. trying to force me to hand to you Hand to me? What me? There is no me - I could be dead tomorrow and absolutely *nothing* will change. I have never, ever, ever asked any of you Openmoko bastards to give anything to me. Instead I have merely voiced the demand that the materials be released freely to all Humanity - with a capital 'H' - and yes, I have indeed contemplated being the one to sacrifice my life in order for the remaining 7 billion people on Earth to gain free unrestricted access to a working turnkey GSM firmware package in the form of COFF objects with full symbolic information - a format which any embedded software engineer worth his or her salt should have no problem working with. [FYI, there is a patch to GNU Binutils which enables objcopy and objdump to read TI's COFF. The support isn't perfect, but it can easily be improved if need be - and I also invite you to grep for my name in the binutils ChangeLog files.] the MOST SECRIT SOURCES that everybody [...] had access to since ~2011. The reference to ~2011 makes me suspect that you are talking about the TSM30 version - it was indeed late 2011 when this code (first released in 2004 apparently) became widely available once again - and the latter happened because *I* had sent it to Cryptome on a CD-R. And you know as well as I do (or would know at least, if you ever actually *looked* at the modem code you're sitting on) that the TSM30 version is drastically different from what you got from TI as Om-Inc: different RTOS (Nucleus vs. SOS), different code structure, different flash file system, totally different hardware (ABB, RF and probably a different Calypso variant), almost everything is different. Heck, the TSM30 code isn't even TI, it's Purple Labs, a company that bit the dust. OTOH, if you are talking about something *other* than the TSM30 code, something that everybody passing the idiot test supposedly has access to, why don't you try being transparent once for a change, and actually post a URL? everybody passing the idiot test Like anyone else, I have my own strengths and weaknesses. What I'm good at is designing and writing embedded software, and some hardware too. I've been doing it professionally since ~2000 (and as a hobby long before that), and I make enough money doing it to support not one, but two full households on my sole income - so I guess I probably do it pretty well. I do it on the hobby side of my life too, so you can look at any of my projects and judge for yourselves. Like this one, for example: http://ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG/OpenWAN/ I'm sending this email through the Internet connection served by that SDSL modem designed and built by me: hardware, firmware and the logic in the FPGA - not to mention all the reverse engineering that was needed to get to this point. But I have my weaknesses too. I am NOT good with people, and I am NOT good with finding information that is passed around in a hush-hush manner. I don't do *anything* hush-hush: if I have or find something that may potentially be of value to others, I announce it publicly and openly, on the relevant mailing list. I absolutely do not understand how someone can be like you. I absolutely do not understand how ANY human being (or so-called human being) can be as cruel and callous as the three of you (JR, HW and PF). It's one thing to be slow with releasing things on occasion. I've been slow with releasing my software many a time, mostly because of my handicaps with modern technologies and my heavy use of seriously ancient gear - as well as my fear and distrust of any servers or online services other than my own. But it's an *entirely* different thing when you are holding something that someone else is very willing to DIE for, something that you could easily share with the whole world at absolutely zero cost, risk, loss or other detriment to you, and yet you STILL refuse to share. It absolutely baffles and boggles my mind that there are such cruel people living on this planet, and *especially* in the so-called community of so-called freedom and openness. And because it is so totally incomprehensible to my mind how someone can be like you, and be able to live with yourself while watching someone else's life wither away because of your selfishness, I find myself at a complete loss as to how one should interact with people like you. And I even promise I won't call the police or any other officials. It doesn't matter whether you call them or not - I am still the most wanted criminal in their eyes. Your country is a police state, no different from the way it was in WW II and just before, and I have no desire to go anywhere near it. Unless, of course, I were to enter it in the same manner in which both of
Re: Building a new totally free phone
Your free phone idea appeals to me enormously, Michael. And I, (unlike I suspect some others on the list) very much like your framing of the issues, too. I fully support the idea that if a law makes private conversation illegal, it is a bad law, and regulatory blocks on GSM that forbid inspectable and modifiable cannot but be such. However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings, if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home PC in a few days, you're still screwed. A truly free phone is a worthy and very important thing for other reasons, but could such a thing be strongly secure too? Or is the only solution there to rely on something like ZRTP in voip, and give up wishing that GSM could provide security? I've always been somewhat vague about how modems and their processors interact with other parts of a system. Am I correct in thinking that once the first firmware part of your project was complete, one could flash load that the GTA02 modem, and have a (far more 'smart' and Linux-y than you're ultimately planning) free openmoko phone? Or would the modem firmware have to be programmed differently for the GTA02 compared to your feature phone? While I am more interested in a feature phone than a 'smart' phone, I would be very happy to have a really free modem firmware on my GTA02 in the meantime. It's interesting to think of the meanings of 'free' in your message. Because one of the nice things of free software traditionally has been the ability to say it's free software, so I can do what I like with it, and you can't invoke state violence against me for doing so, due to a careful 'respect' of the copyrights of people who don't want their stuff to be free. While regulatory reigimes seemingly make this impossible anyway with GSM, I don't relish the idea of essentially giving more power to other people to wield the law against the project or its' users. But I understand that writing a firmware from scratch for something like the Calypso would be a massive amount of work, and I would rather have a reusable and inspectable firmware that breaks copyright law, than none at all, particularly for something as directly dangerous to one's security as a phone. With this in mind, I do wonder why the OsmocomBB work isn't appropriate as a base for your work? Can you explain this a bit more why it isn't? Is it just that they are quite a long way from producing a complete firmware for a phone? And because it is so totally incomprehensible to my mind how someone can be like you, and be able to live with yourself while watching someone else's life wither away because of your selfishness, I find myself at a complete loss as to how one should interact with people like you. I do think you need to be more careful, kind, and forgiving of perceived differences, when speaking to others in the community. We're all in a similar position here, working towards helping people communicate freely. Sure, people have different things they will compromise in order to try to effect this, but ultimately I find it hard to believe that anybody in the openmoko community isn't here in large part because of their wish to see people able to freely communicate. It's fine and healthy to not always agree with others about what compromises are appropriate, and to argue to try to figure out what the best course of action is, but it is unjust to assume malice, and saying what I've quoted above (regardless of how true it may feel) is likely to just turn people off to you. We need all the solidarity we can muster, and we need to celebrate the work people are doing, and try to respect them, and their differences. Even - nay, especially - if there are major differences that you can't understand. I look forward very much to hearing your progress with your project. If there's something I as an enthusiastic but comparitively ignorant volunteer can do to help, let me know! Nick ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
Nick, you raised very good questions. I believe, that we don't need GSM at all. I don't use it for two years now. When we use GSM we use carrier services. Can we be sure that carrier does not track us, don't record our calls etc? For instance, in my country secret service has direct access to the carrier's switches, and can follow calls of any person in real time. They also can write a paper and request this or that person's locations from the carrier. We don't use gmail, because we know they are watching us, then why do we use carriers? The way to be secure is to use trusted service providers, and carriers are too big to be trusted. However we can use own SIP or XMPP servers, we can create small community servers where we trust our service providers. And use them for chat/talk. Should I mention that we use encryption, in both cases - server to server, and client to server. Here we have connectivity problem. Okay, everybody has a wifi at home (or may have). But what if you would like to call someone from the forest? Here what we can do: get an Internet only tariff, use it for making calls/chat etc. But our location still can be tracked if the carrier requires you to identiy yourself when buying a sim card. Here we can do nothing except may be mass exchange of sim cards with random people. Like make an action, when 1000 people goes to get a card, and then they all exchange cards with people they don't even know and won't see most probably in the future. This also has another plus: why pay for each sms? We can chat in internet as long as we wish. --- sent with alpine https://spyurk.am/u/norayr http://norayr.arnet.am/weblog On Fri, 23 Aug 2013, Nick wrote: Your free phone idea appeals to me enormously, Michael. And I, (unlike I suspect some others on the list) very much like your framing of the issues, too. I fully support the idea that if a law makes private conversation illegal, it is a bad law, and regulatory blocks on GSM that forbid inspectable and modifiable cannot but be such. However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings, if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home PC in a few days, you're still screwed. A truly free phone is a worthy and very important thing for other reasons, but could such a thing be strongly secure too? Or is the only solution there to rely on something like ZRTP in voip, and give up wishing that GSM could provide security? I've always been somewhat vague about how modems and their processors interact with other parts of a system. Am I correct in thinking that once the first firmware part of your project was complete, one could flash load that the GTA02 modem, and have a (far more 'smart' and Linux-y than you're ultimately planning) free openmoko phone? Or would the modem firmware have to be programmed differently for the GTA02 compared to your feature phone? While I am more interested in a feature phone than a 'smart' phone, I would be very happy to have a really free modem firmware on my GTA02 in the meantime. It's interesting to think of the meanings of 'free' in your message. Because one of the nice things of free software traditionally has been the ability to say it's free software, so I can do what I like with it, and you can't invoke state violence against me for doing so, due to a careful 'respect' of the copyrights of people who don't want their stuff to be free. While regulatory reigimes seemingly make this impossible anyway with GSM, I don't relish the idea of essentially giving more power to other people to wield the law against the project or its' users. But I understand that writing a firmware from scratch for something like the Calypso would be a massive amount of work, and I would rather have a reusable and inspectable firmware that breaks copyright law, than none at all, particularly for something as directly dangerous to one's security as a phone. With this in mind, I do wonder why the OsmocomBB work isn't appropriate as a base for your work? Can you explain this a bit more why it isn't? Is it just that they are quite a long way from producing a complete firmware for a phone? And because it is so totally incomprehensible to my mind how someone can be like you, and be able to live with yourself while watching someone else's life wither away because of your selfishness, I find myself at a complete loss as to how one should interact with people like you. I do think you need to be more careful, kind, and forgiving of perceived differences, when speaking to others in the community. We're all in a similar position here, working towards helping people communicate freely. Sure, people have different things they will compromise in order to try to effect this, but ultimately I find
Re: Building a new totally free phone
However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? IMHO the need for the GSM stack being open sourced is largely overestimated. Security experts say that the question is how to secure communication over an unsecure communication medium. Depending on which level you want to work, you can try to make GSM more secure because it is communicating over an inherently unsecure/open medium (electro-magnetical wave broadcast). Or you can just use what others have built into a black box (i.e. a modem with some AT commands). They promise that it is secure enough. But if you want to be really secure, just wrap the potentially unsecure channel and encrypt the data sent over it. BTW: all the recent nsa/prism things have shown that it is not sufficient to make a fully transparent (aka open sourced) terminal - if it is easy enough to tap the network nodes. Or the servers you are communicating with. I.e. securing yourself is best done if you put yourself into eremitage... So in my view, spending additional work to get an open sourced GSM or even UMTS firmware stack is a nice excercise for embedded and real time communication protocol engineering, but does not make anything more safe or secure than using a black box module, because it just tries to increase security of one small hop instead of end-to-end. In other words: security measures must be done on the highest layers of the OSI reference model, not on the lowest ones. And that is the area of the application processor and OS. And of course documented schematics help to understand if there are potential backdoors to circumvent the OS or not. So we need a device where you have control over the OS, but not necessarily over the inner workings of all peripherals. -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
Security experts have moved on from that line of thinking long ago I think. The problem with it is that a GSM/3G/LTE modem is not just a communications channel. It is a generic processor running software. Probably buggy, insecure, proprietary software. Same goes for GPS, WiFi, Ethernet and other external-facing firmware. Depending on the architecture of your device and the simplicity and security of the interface between your modem and your, attackers may be able to turn their probably relatively-easy-to-aquire modem beachhead into full control and monitoring of the whole system. This is the reason the Replicant folks strongly recommend against Qualcomm devices, where the CPU is controlled by the modem. Based on the talks I saw at OHM2013, the SIM card may be a similar threat. The good news is that some SIM cards are insecure enough that you (and remote attackers) can calculate the Ki, remove the SIM and use the Ki instead. OHM2013 also taught me that the carrier networks are full of juicy insecure Linux based systems, so you don't just have to worry about carrier collaboration with nation-state adversaries. Yes, we need better protocols but we also need libre embedded software and carriers who run libre software and have some ethics. -- bye, pabs ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
Am 23.08.2013 14:41, schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? IMHO the need for the GSM stack being open sourced is largely overestimated. Security experts say that the question is how to secure communication over an unsecure communication medium. Depending on which level you want to work, you can try to make GSM more secure because it is communicating over an inherently unsecure/open medium (electro-magnetical wave broadcast). Or you can just use what others have built into a black box (i.e. a modem with some AT commands). They promise that it is secure enough. But if you want to be really secure, just wrap the potentially unsecure channel and encrypt the data sent over it. BTW: all the recent nsa/prism things have shown that it is not sufficient to make a fully transparent (aka open sourced) terminal - if it is easy enough to tap the network nodes. Or the servers you are communicating with. I.e. securing yourself is best done if you put yourself into eremitage... So in my view, spending additional work to get an open sourced GSM or even UMTS firmware stack is a nice excercise for embedded and real time communication protocol engineering, but does not make anything more safe or secure than using a black box module, because it just tries to increase security of one small hop instead of end-to-end. In other words: security measures must be done on the highest layers of the OSI reference model, not on the lowest ones. And that is the area of the application processor and OS. And of course documented schematics help to understand if there are potential backdoors to circumvent the OS or not. So we need a device where you have control over the OS, but not necessarily over the inner workings of all peripherals. -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I think so, too. At first, everyone is complaining about NSA/PRISM and Orwell. And then, same poeple discuss this topic on Facefuck and other social media sites, there they have to make an total data strip. It does not make sense! So, the better way is to create an phone with an free and save OS, reliable hard- and software, without spyware infected apps. I think, this can make the Moko interessting for bussiness use! One major problem for companies is, the data security (contacts, dates, ...). Most spyware apps send the data from infected phones via internet connection to the criminals/ competitors. Reaching this potential market can acquire customers, those are willing and able to pay more for an smartphone. The idea of getting an communication over GSM/ UMTS without the ability of being observed by the secret services can not be realized, because they have not to crack Your phone, they can get an link into Your communication at the next router in Your carriers network (the provider are forced by law to make this possible). So do not waste time in this idea, there are other issues to solve: - ability to use the Moko in sunlight (!) = other display (other case is required!) - reliability of hard- and software - other display, so then change to Multitouch (I do not need it really, but needed for creater market acceptance and increasing number of users) - greatest issue: marketing! (actually there is a real chance to place the Moko- idea in peoples mind: [1] so apple and co. are loosing there cool image bit by bit) - maybe, HDMI-output - working cam, not usable right now :-( (still pin striped picture) - better support for data sync (adressbook, dates, ...), not only with Google (everyone using this, should not discuss about security!) - maybe: LTE - ..[to be continued].. [1] http://www.cinema.de/film/apple-stories,5693840.html -- Regards Sebastian Reinhardt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
Nick openmoko-commun...@njw.me.uk wrote: Your free phone idea appeals to me enormously, Michael. Yay, one more supporter! However, can GSM really be a base for secure communication anyway? I see that after your post, the thread on the mailing list veered off into a discussion of security. But that diversion totally misses the point: it isn't so much about secure communication as it is about the Four Freedoms of software: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html When it comes to the matters of free software philosophy, I am very much like RMS. I have a major problem with carrying a device in my pocket containing firmware for which I lack the source - not because it is a security threat, but because it's morally wrong. The only difference between me and RMS/FSF is on the matter of legalities. While I define free software in terms of exactly the same 4 freedoms as the FSF, RMS and the conventional free sw camp add an additional condition that these 4 freedoms be exercised legally - whereas I add no such extra clause: whether it's legally free or illegally free, it's still free software to me. There also are some practical considerations that affect only feature phones and not smartphones. I have yet to encounter a phone UI design that doesn't suck, and I hope that most people on this list will agree with me that being able to customize the UI to one's preferences is an essential freedom that a geeky, empowered phone user should have - and I mean *really* customize the UI, not just twiddle menu settings, but being able to study, modify or even totally rewrite the UI code. Smartphones have a separate application processor to run the UI, so you can indeed play with the UI on Linux to your heart's content while keeping the modem as a black box. But this approach does not work for a feature phone where the UI and the modem are tightly integrated into a single whole. Exercising full freedom over the UI code in a feature phone requires having a complete and rebuildable source for the firmware suite as a whole. (Having the GSM stack pieces as binary objects to be linked with the UI source would work too, but then one gets tied to a proprietary compiler toolchain, etc. In any case we already have full source for the GSM stack thanks to the TSM30 and LoCosto leaks, so it's a solved problem now.) Now look at the situation from the perspective of a user who does NOT want his or her phone to be anything other than a plain phone. For such a user, a non-smart feature phone ought to be ideal, but if the user also wants the freedom to fully own the UI design, s/he currently has to pay for an otherwise completely unnecessary application processor. And when I say pay for, I'm *not* referring to the purchase price of the device - I would gladly pay a lot more for my ideal Free Dumb Phone than the most expensive GTA04 or Ubuntu Edge or whatever. Instead I mean pay for in terms of carrying extra weight, extra power consumption, extra system complexity otherwise unneeded, many additional points of failure, etc. *That* is what I seek to rectify with my Free Dumb Phone project, aside from the moral issue. Freedom is a right that all phone users should enjoy, not a privilege that's limited to just Linux smartphones to the exclusion of non-smart feature phones. I've heard that the encryption used is really crappy, and while some things like MITM forced reregistration to disable encryption and ease surveillance could be countered by appropriate phone settings, if the best encryption algorithm available can be cracked by a home PC in a few days, you're still screwed. The GSM encryption is a red herring - it makes absolutely no difference whether it's there or not. Imagine if the GSM encryption were perfect and unbreakable - what would change? Nothing. The over-the-air encryption is only between the mobile station and the network. In a public phone network, where you can dial the phone number of any stranger and hear each other's voices if the other party answers, encryption can't be end-to-end. The network has to be able to decrypt with one end's key and re-encrypt with a different key for the other end, so the network itself has (and must have) access to the cleartext form of your digitized voice. If I am the world's most wanted criminal and enemy #1 of all major governments, and they want to spy on my phone conversations, they aren't going to bother with cracking GSM over-the-air encryption, they'll just put in a lawful intercept at the switch. The only way to render all lawful intercept mechanisms ineffective is to use end-to-end encryption. That won't work when calling strangers, or calling the transit line to check bus/train schedules etc, but it's a very feasible mechanism for private and secure communication mechanism among family members, friends etc. Here in USA we have one advantage over the EU etc lands where most people on this list seem to be located: CSD (circuit-switched
Re: Building a new totally free phone
On Fri 23 August 2013 21:07:14 Michael Spacefalcon wrote: I would be very happy to have a really free modem firmware on my GTA02 in the meantime. Then maybe you should try talking some sense into Joerg etc - maybe they'll listen to you more than they are willing to listen to me. I wonder how a single brain can produce that much nonsense and be that dull. You seem a smart guy otherwise, so I really don't grok how you can be so weird in this single issue. I told you everybody who been interested - except you - got access to the sources you're so terribly _not_ wanting (I wonder what now. Do you need them or not? And if you do, then for what since you already got the full radio stack which OM never had, and you're not interested in the AT interpreter of GTA0x modem but rather in any UI which obviously OM also never had). Everybody except you since I don't give access to stuff that's under NDA to a guy who's calling OM a bunch of rogue idiots and threatening to shoot me. Also you clearly say you're not asking for me handing that stuff to you (verbatim, see your prev mail) , you want me to PUBLISH it under my full name and stating loud that I don't give a flying F about the NDA contracts I'm under, thus ruining my professional career just to meet your idea of how industry and FOSS and community and the world at large works or should or ought work. Grow up, dude! You're biting the hand that feeds you, like a rabid dog. Won't happen (again, recall glamo?). You're seriously blaming OM and its employees for not violating the agreements they had to sign (and believe me, we tried hard to avoid signing any such agreements, since OM was planned to be as open as feasible), to make the whole project possible? I honestly wonder what kind of mater is inside your skull. YOU are not even worth this lengthy answer, and nobody else got the problem YOU have with OM calypso firmware sources, since everybody else asking kindly had access to all the stuff since 2011, and nobody found it worth doing much leaking about it. Since in some regard, the calypso firmware *is* OSS, it's just not FOSS. Get that! Wrap your head around it. And stop throwing darts at my picture at your wall, you honestly need to find a new and better reason for living. Good bye! /j [ps: trying hard to not elaborate on a guy like you talking about morally correct behaviour, and about the paradox you're exposing there in just 2 sentences] -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Building a new totally free phone
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote: Please allow me to address a question to the community as a whole: if you can produce a free phone then why aren't you? Do it! What are you *waiting* for? Well, as you've asked the community as a whole, without restrictive language to exclude any particular factions of the community (e.g., the illegal faction, which I'm heading), I'll take the liberty of posting my answer. I am in fact working on building a new phone - as in new physical hw. However, the type of phone I'm seeking to build is quite different from what Canonical tried to fund, and from what most of this community seems to be interested in. I personally will never be happy with a smartphone *of any kind* as my everyday phone - instead the kind of phone I want is the kind we all had in the 1990s - a plain or dumb or feature phone. And that is the type of phone I'm working on building - a plain old-fashioned candybar phone without any smarts, and no application processor to run Linux or any other smartphone OS - only the traditional ARM7 baseband processor running traditional RTOS- based GSM phone firmware. But the plain/dumb/feature phone which I'm working on building will have one key difference from the ones you can buy for $20 on ebay: it will be 100% free as in freedom, in terms of both hardware and firmware. In the case of hardware it means publishing full, *unredacted* schematics and PCB EDA files, and choosing only those components for which full documentation is available. As for the firmware, yes, it will be an RTOS phone, no Linux or the like, no application processor, but the full C source for that RTOS-based firmware can still be published. And because such a totally free phone can never, ever, ever be produced legally, I am doing it as an explicitly-illegal project, under the aegis of the international community of outlaws, criminals and lawbreakers - i.e., my brothers and sisters. Of course a project of this magnitude won't happen overnight. But I handle it the same way I've handled all other projects which appear totally insurmountable at first: I divide the problem into bite-sized chunks, and work on the initial stages without worrying too much about what difficulties may lie in the later stages - I'll deal with those when the time comes. The FreeCalypso phone project has the following rough roadmap: 1. Build the FreeCalypso software/firmware first. In May-June of this year I have found some new and exciting TI firmware source leaks (archived on my mini-Wikileaks at ftp.ifctf.org) which will hopefully make it unnecessary for me to sacrifice my life in a gunfire exchange with the German or Russian police after kidnapping a moko-hoarder: these new leaks appear to be much closer to TI's mainline than the famous PurpleLabs TSM30 source, and I'm quite confident that by using these new leaks I can recreate something very close to what Om-Inc and its former employees/contractors have wrongfully withheld from Humanity - but in full source form. (The LoCosto leak in particular, which I'm backporting from LoCosto to Calypso, has the GSM stack in full source form, unlike what Om-Inc purportedly got, and it appears to be from the same time frame as Om's version - much newer than the TSM30 one.) I am working on this sw/fw part right now, using the Pirelli DP-L10 feature phone and the GTA02 GSM modem as my two bring-up/test platforms. In fact, the Pirelli phone fits me almost perfectly in terms of hardware features, and I have thought long and hard about just settling on it as my hw platform. But there are a few problems with this existing platform which have ultimately swayed me to my current plan of biting the bullet and building my own phone hw instead: a) No schematics could be found for this phone. (The OsmocomBB folks are also hacking on Compal/Motorola phones for which there are full schematics, but their hardware features are insufficient for me: I would really miss the tri-band support, the loudspeaker and the USB charging capability.) Schematics can be reconstructed by PCB reverse engineering given enough determination, but it would be hard to justify the effort given the other two problems: b) This particular phone has a bunch of extra chips beyond the essential Calypso chipset, and for most of these extra chips no docs can be found. While they support functionality which I can easily live without (camera and WiFi), their presence would tremendously complicate any attempt to reconstruct the full schematics, and may throw up issues when the time comes to implement thorough power management: how do we ensure that these undocumented and unsupported chips are fully powered down? c) The biggest show-stopper of all: the supply of these phones on the surplus market appears to have been exhausted. I've managed to grab a few before they disappeared, so I've got enough for my sw/fw
Re: Building a new totally free phone
ROTFL -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
On Fri 23 August 2013 01:58:04 Michael Spacefalcon wrote: [blablabla] I have found some new and exciting TI firmware source leaks (archived on my mini-Wikileaks at ftp.ifctf.org) which will hopefully make it unnecessary for me to sacrifice my life in a gunfire exchange with the German or Russian police after kidnapping a moko-hoarder: these new leaks appear to be much closer to TI's mainline than the famous PurpleLabs TSM30 source, and I'm quite confident that by using these new leaks I can recreate something very close to what Om-Inc and its former employees/contractors have wrongfully withheld from Humanity I invite you to visit me at my home trying to force me to hand to you the MOST SECRIT SOURCES that everybody passing the idiot test had access to since ~2011. And I even promise I won't call the police or any other officials. Rather I will do nothing but listening and laughing when I hear you screaming for helf, from the bottom of our manure tank you for sure inevitably will manage to find and drop in. good luck! /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Building a new totally free phone
On Fri 23 August 2013 01:58:04 Michael Spacefalcon wrote: [yaggediyagediblabblablub...] In the case of hardware it means publishing full, *unredacted* schematics and PCB EDA files, Yeah that *evil* redacting! Oh, did you ever hear about that funny story? Somebody noticed that the GTA01 schematics were redacted by a true idiot who didn't notice that the huge black blob covering parts of the schematics was easily removed by simply editing the pdf, or even simpler by highlighting the area. PS, maybe that idiot been me :-o we all love you, no really, we mean it! /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Fwd: MFS Talk. Tues, 20 Mar. OpenPheonux (GTA04): Return of the free phone by Michael Dorrington
I have added a link to the Events page: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/Events/ Am 19.03.2012 um 08:49 schrieb Michael Dorrington: On 14/03/12 10:42, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi Michael, thanks for this support! Am 14.03.2012 um 10:11 schrieb Michael Dorrington: I am doing a talk about the GTA04 at Manchester Free Software, see details below. I'd really appreciate suggestions, ideas, tips, etc. on what to include. I think you can start with the materials from the FOSDEM presentation: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-February/066383.html Thanks. Please could I have advice on things to show in the talk that currently work on the GTA04A4 and any config needed to get them working. I've been trying various things out but have run out of time before the talk now. Regards, Mike. -- FSF member #9429 http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=9429 http://www.fsf.org/about The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is a nonprofit with a worldwide mission to promote computer user freedom and to defend the rights of all free software users. ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Fwd: MFS Talk. Tues, 20 Mar. OpenPheonux (GTA04): Return of the free phone by Michael Dorrington
Thanks. Will you attend with GTA04 project? :-) Dne 19.3.2012 09:03, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller napsal(a): I have added a link to the Events page: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/Events/ Am 19.03.2012 um 08:49 schrieb Michael Dorrington: On 14/03/12 10:42, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi Michael, thanks for this support! Am 14.03.2012 um 10:11 schrieb Michael Dorrington: I am doing a talk about the GTA04 at Manchester Free Software, see details below. I'd really appreciate suggestions, ideas, tips, etc. on what to include. I think you can start with the materials from the FOSDEM presentation: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-February/066383.html Thanks. Please could I have advice on things to show in the talk that currently work on the GTA04A4 and any config needed to get them working. I've been trying various things out but have run out of time before the talk now. Regards, Mike. -- FSF member #9429 http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=9429 http://www.fsf.org/about The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is a nonprofit with a worldwide mission to promote computer user freedom and to defend the rights of all free software users. ___ Gta04-owner mailing list gta04-ow...@goldelico.com http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo/gta04-owner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
I just want a free phone
Hi there, I read some discussions about the accessories to GTA02. In my humble opinion the community should not expect the OpenMoko Inc to provide all the accessories, as soon as the phone is released, especially for the non-consumer version yet. For now i would be happy to get the phone itself, and would bare with the inconvienience of searching for accessories in ebay, or anywhere else. I hope the communyti will start building and documenting whatever accesories are available. It might take some time, but the FreeRunner will popup in the local phone shops after a while, and then I would expect to have a full range of compatible accesories avalable locally. Regards, Breakable ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: I just want a free phone
On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Breakable [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi there, I read some discussions about the accessories to GTA02. In my humble opinion the community should not expect the OpenMoko Inc to provide all the accessories, as soon as the phone is released, especially for the non-consumer version yet. For now i would be happy to get the phone itself, and would bare with the inconvienience of searching for accessories in ebay, or anywhere else. I hope the communyti will start building and documenting whatever accesories are available. It might take some time, but the FreeRunner will popup in the local phone shops after a while, and then I would expect to have a full range of compatible accesories avalable locally. Regards, Breakable +1 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: I just want a free phone
Thank you Breakable. We struggle long and hard with this question. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Breakable Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 7:20 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: I just want a free phone Hi there, I read some discussions about the accessories to GTA02. In my humble opinion the community should not expect the OpenMoko Inc to provide all the accessories, as soon as the phone is released, especially for the non-consumer version yet. For now i would be happy to get the phone itself, and would bare with the inconvienience of searching for accessories in ebay, or anywhere else. I hope the communyti will start building and documenting whatever accesories are available. It might take some time, but the FreeRunner will popup in the local phone shops after a while, and then I would expect to have a full range of compatible accesories avalable locally. Regards, Breakable ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
El lun, 16-07-2007 a las 13:10 -0400, Ian Darwin escribió: Calling it the free(d) phone to consumers (as opposed to developers) is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will. Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know. I like the spanish term: libre (like in ubuntu cd-box). The libre phone. signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje está firmada digitalmente ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
On Jul 20, 2007, at 2:31 AM, Santiago Crespo wrote: I like the spanish term: libre (like in ubuntu cd-box). It's not a bad word, but unfortunately when I hear it I get an image of a guy wearing army fatigues and carrying an automatic weapon. To some extent I think choosing a branding that will work in every country is a hopeless task. I mean, Coke and McDonald's seem to have done it, but I don't know of a lot of others... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Am Montag, 16. Juli 2007 22:14 schrieb Ken Young: How 'bout For those who prefer JTAG to Bluetooth. or It's not just a phone, it's a hobby. or Get one before the phone companies figure out what they are. OpenMoko - and you even own the ghost in the machine. :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
On 7/16/07, Visti Andresen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps a different name different locations ;o) The Phone for The Matrix tm. The One Phone for Mddle-earth. The Next Generation Phone for Star Trek tm conventions. The True Phone for religious occasions. Ok, that's not a bad idea. maybe for some sort of adsense, or target-specific advertisment (fantasy newspapers? forum banners?) The Phone with the only force (wheel of time) The diy phone (steampunk scene) The ZAT'NI'KATEL'PHONE (stargate) and so on. not bad as idea. -- My corner of the web: http://ramsesoriginal.wordpress.com My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
The Open Phone Our Phone The Human Phone (ok, sounds a bit like Ubuntu) Free your Phone (wich obviously is not the same as The free phone. It sounds good, and is already used in the youtube ads) More then a Phone Phone++ The Phone from people to people The Freedom Phone Teh ub3rz h4ck70r7 Ph0n3!!11oneeleven btw not only in North America The free phone could be missleading, because everywhere operators did that strategy. But only in english this could be misleading, because in other languages free (si in beer) is not the same as free (es in freedom). for example german kostenlos/gratis frei, italian gratuito libero (even if libero is(was?)a phone carrier), ... p.s. i hate the way gmail handles this list. couldn't we have the respond-to adress set to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- My corner of the web: http://ramsesoriginal.wordpress.com My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
ti, 2007-07-17 kello 09:59 +0200, ramsesoriginal kirjoitti: p.s. i hate the way gmail handles this list. couldn't we have the respond-to adress set to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hate gmail and complain to them all you want, please don't imply the list should be broken because of that. I shan't continue on the subject, but thought it necessary to note the opposing opinion's presence in this context. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
On 13:25:09 2007-07-17 Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/17/07, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ti, 2007-07-17 kello 09:59 +0200, ramsesoriginal kirjoitti: p.s. i hate the way gmail handles this list. couldn't we have the respond-to adress set to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hate gmail and complain to them all you want, please don't imply the list should be broken because of that. I shan't continue on the subject, but thought it necessary to note the opposing opinion's presence in this context. it's nothing to do with gmail. the reply-to field has not been set on the openmoko mail server, so replies to messages default to the sender. this is fine in most cases, but not on mailing lists There's as list-reply header set which any sane mail client should be able to use... My webmail using hastymail even has a Reply To Mailing List button -- Andraž ruskie Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Key id = F4C1F89C Key fingerprint = 6FF2 8F20 4C9D DB36 B5B6 F134 884D 72CC F4C1 F89C ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
p.s. i hate the way gmail handles this list. couldn't we have the respond-to adress set to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Having the list server change the reply-to header is wrong. Please read http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful I don't use Gmail, but a quick google search tells me that the shortcut a will reply-to-all, which would be the correct way to respond to messages on-list. -jim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Giles Jones wrote: On 16 Jul 2007, at 19:49, Ryan Prior wrote: I like the tagline Your phone, your way. The idea is that we are putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different things to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in with the spirit of freedom. Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the software being there and working. Good planing is needed in the development stage as well as at the point where you sell the product :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I like the MyPhone and Your Phone ideas the best so far. Of course, MyPhone is already taken as a current phone product. One idea would be to leave the word phone off all together, since that is kind of redundant. Make the tag name be something that's defines itself, like Google did. Regardless of the final tag name, I can see the end of the OpenMoko commercialSean Moss Pultz sort of off center camera with a stark white background (a la Apple commercials).Sean answers his Neo then extends his arm with the face of the Neo filling the camera and says, It's for you. Cheers./lost+found/.Cassj~ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Like it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 09:59 +0200, ramsesoriginal wrote: The Open Phone Our Phone Just oPhone I've always dislike the I and My stuff. digger ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
oPhone sounds great too... but not this oPhone: http://soapbox.msn.com/video.aspx?vid=79996a20-e2de-4757-8d22-dfc5a44acfc7 -- Luit On 7/17/07, digger vermont [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 09:59 +0200, ramsesoriginal wrote: The Open Phone Our Phone Just oPhone I've always dislike the I and My stuff. digger ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
Digger Vermont [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : Just oPhone I've always dislike the I and My stuff. Not even sure it should be branded as just a phone. Always preferred the communicator label myself :) --- G O Jones ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Great video! the OFone, which way is up on this thing? I'd rather not go with oPhone, it sounds derivative of the iPhone. Like the openmoko phone is a cheap wannabe iPhone. I don't people to have that impression. What about a nice industrial-style alphanumeric designation - like the 'FIC A1'. Or OM1. Or FS1, whatever. Kind of like how BMW names their cars. You could come up with a feature specific naming scheme, then you'd never need to worry about what to name the phone. Another consideration might be to come up with a name that is search engine friendly. The Open Phone would get a lot of non openmoko hits I bet. Luit van Drongelen wrote: oPhone sounds great too... but not this oPhone: http://soapbox.msn.com/video.aspx?vid=79996a20-e2de-4757-8d22-dfc5a44acfc7 -- Luit On 7/17/07, digger vermont [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 09:59 +0200, ramsesoriginal wrote: The Open Phone Our Phone Just oPhone I've always dislike the I and My stuff. digger ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Ben Burdette wrote: Great video! the OFone, which way is up on this thing? I'd rather not go with oPhone, it sounds derivative of the iPhone. Like the openmoko phone is a cheap wannabe iPhone. I don't people to have that impression. What about a nice industrial-style alphanumeric designation - like the 'FIC A1'. Or OM1. Or FS1, whatever. Well, you know, we're pretty far off the topic I started here. The phone being sold now *is* called the FIC Neo1973, period. We were talking about how to advertise the phone, when it's ready. Which it isn't. I only mentioned it so that nobody got too far along with advertising based on the free phone. I did not mean to get everybody excited trying out their new name for the phone. Let's all get back to writing code now, so we'll have something to advertise someday. *whew* Ian ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
Robin Paulson writes: it's nothing to do with gmail. the reply-to field has not been set on the openmoko mail server, so replies to messages default to the sender. this is fine in most cases, but not on mailing lists This has been discussed to death in the past, with no consensus on what proper behavior is. It seems pretty clear that the list admin is in the don't munge reply-to camp, so the list isn't going to start doing it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
On Tuesday 17 July 2007 16:54:45 Ian Darwin wrote: What about a nice industrial-style alphanumeric designation - like the 'FIC A1'. Or OM1. Or FS1, whatever. Well, you know, we're pretty far off the topic I started here. The phone being sold now *is* called the FIC Neo1973, period. IMHO it's a bad idea to call GTA02 Neo1973 as well. That's going to cause all sorts of confusion for sure. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
On Jul 17, 2007, at 12:59 AM, ramsesoriginal wrote: Teh ub3rz h4ck70r7 Ph0n3!!11oneeleven Perfect. :') Honestly, I don't think this is something that one needs to worry about. What's going to happen if OpenMoko really becomes usable is that various vendors will adopt it in markets that will take it, because it's cheaper and (assuming we do our job right) nicer than the alternatives. And then you will see the Motorola OpenRAZR, the Samsung tFree, and like that, and hopefully FIC will find itself a real player in the high-end phone category as well. So take delivery of your phone, and do something cool with it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
I completely agree. My idea is to make two advertisment campains: one on maisntream media: maybe tv, maybe radio, flyre, poster, newspapers, wathever. This ads would be something like: The free phone, OpenMoko. The only one with The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator and so on. Don't even THINK of using based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx or With powerful ssh acess Calling it the free(d) phone to consumers (as opposed to developers) is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will. Why? Because (at least in North America) the major carriers have spent years, and billions of dollars, totally subverting the meaning of the phrase free phone to mean we give you the cheapest phone we can find and don't charge you for this piece of junk when you lock into a two- or three-year plan at some exorbitant rate that obviously includes the cost of the phone amortized. Seriously, ask consumers what a free phone means. at least 11 out of 10 will give you the definition above, at least the parts they understand. A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the free as in beer vs free as in speech argument. The phrase free phone already means the opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on. Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Ian Darwin wrote: Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know. How about The Freedom Phone. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Mike wrote: How about The Freedom Phone. Makes me think of American flags and jingoistic phrases. Probably a non-starter in the US... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Ian Darwin wrote: The phrase free phone already means the opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on. Ugh, Ian's right. That phrase has been violently co-opted by the carriers. Much as I like The free(d) phone, I don't think we can use that anywhere outside the geek community. I suspect that few, if any, of us are going to be able to figure out how to advertise this phone to a non-geek. Hopefully FIC has some traditional marketing fu up their sleeve... -- Dirk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite conclusion! I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US. On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike wrote: How about The Freedom Phone. Makes me think of American flags and jingoistic phrases. Probably a non-starter in the US... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Pius A. Uzamere II wrote: I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite conclusion! I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US. The set of people who would want a Freedom Phone probably does not have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source phone. Freedom, at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted than than free phone... But let us not venture into unpleasant political territory. -- Dirk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
On Monday 16 July 2007 19:19:49 Mike wrote: Ian Darwin wrote: Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know. How about The Freedom Phone. How about centering around liberty instead of free (which has way too many connotations) and freedom (which is clearer, but I doubt it will work in Europe after the freedom fries stuff)? pgpRPRqFEPWbr.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
On 16/07/07, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I completely agree. My idea is to make two advertisment campains: one on maisntream media: maybe tv, maybe radio, flyre, poster, newspapers, wathever. This ads would be something like: The free phone, OpenMoko. The only one with The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator and so on. Don't even THINK of using based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx or With powerful ssh acess Calling it the free(d) phone to consumers (as opposed to developers) is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will. Why? Because (at least in North America) the major carriers have spent years, and billions of dollars, totally subverting the meaning of the phrase free phone to mean we give you the cheapest phone we can find and don't charge you for this piece of junk when you lock into a two- or three-year plan at some exorbitant rate that obviously includes the cost of the phone amortized. Seriously, ask consumers what a free phone means. at least 11 out of 10 will give you the definition above, at least the parts they understand. A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the free as in beer vs free as in speech argument. The phrase free phone already means the opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on. Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know. The you're in control-phone? :P Anyway, it would be weird calling it *the* free phone anyway, as I assume the Neo won't be the only OpenMoko-powered phone. -- Vincent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
We definitely don't want to get into politics here. :D All I'll say is that the people who want an open source phone will get it as soon as they hear that the phone will run their own apps. It's the non-technical people to whom we'll need to make a case. On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pius A. Uzamere II wrote: I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite conclusion! I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US. The set of people who would want a Freedom Phone probably does not have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source phone. Freedom, at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted than than free phone... But let us not venture into unpleasant political territory. -- Dirk ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:20:24 -0700 Dirk Bergstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike wrote: How about The Freedom Phone. Makes me think of American flags and jingoistic phrases. Probably a non-starter in the US... Yes Freedom has a slightly bitter taste these days... How about The Liberated Phone, or dos it taste too Cuban? Perhaps a different name different locations ;o) The Phone for The Matrix tm. The One Phone for Mddle-earth. The Next Generation Phone for Star Trek tm conventions. The True Phone for religious occasions. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Fwd: Not the free phone
Damn... hit reply, needed reply-to all ;-) -- Forwarded message -- From: Marc-Olivier Barre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jul 16, 2007 7:54 PM Subject: Re: Not the free phone To: Dirk Bergstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pius A. Uzamere II wrote: I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite conclusion! I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US. The set of people who would want a Freedom Phone probably does not have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source phone. Freedom, at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted than than free phone... ok, why not something totaly different from free, freedom and open? __ Marc-Olivier Barre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Not the free phone
Dirk Bergstrom wrote: Ian Darwin wrote: The phrase free phone already means the opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on. Ugh, Ian's right. That phrase has been violently co-opted by the carriers. Much as I like The free(d) phone, I don't think we can use that anywhere outside the geek community. Furthermore, unless you are in a free WiFi area and using a VOIP provider, you're still paying for service. Most of service plans cost the same whether you provide your own equipment or not... therefore equating the cost of service over the lifetime of the phone to the cost of the phone is not a valid comparison. However, something like It's your phone, use it your way is likely the better avenue. - John ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: Not the free phone
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 19:56 +0200, Marc-Olivier Barre wrote: On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pius A. Uzamere II wrote: I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite conclusion! I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US. The set of people who would want a Freedom Phone probably does not have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source phone. Freedom, at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted than than free phone... ok, why not something totaly different from free, freedom and open? Well, since Apple has gone iThis and iThat with everything and dropped their use of PowerThis and PowerThat, why not co-opt that? How would you like a PowerPhone? -- Daniel Bartholomew signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
How about Your Own Phone, or maybe just Your Phone, meaning that you really own it? Regarding reply-to munging -- don't want to revisit this ancient debate, but -- please don't :-) Best Regards Kent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Everybody here emphasises on this OSS concept, but I think like Marc-Olivier, that we do not need to speak about OSS at all. This phone will update its software automatically, bugs will not live more than 3 days, it's skins will be customizable, every piece of software you do not use will be removable to gain memory for your mp3, etc.. etc... Where is the OSS concept for a end user here ? *You* know that bugs will be quickly corrected because you are a developper, not everybody. We do not care if it's open, we care about the features other phones do not have. Let's find something without free in it. Exercice left to the reader :) On 7/16/07, Marc-Olivier Barre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Damn... hit reply, needed reply-to all ;-) -- Forwarded message -- From: Marc-Olivier Barre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Jul 16, 2007 7:54 PM Subject: Re: Not the free phone To: Dirk Bergstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pius A. Uzamere II wrote: I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite conclusion! I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US. The set of people who would want a Freedom Phone probably does not have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source phone. Freedom, at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted than than free phone... ok, why not something totaly different from free, freedom and open? __ Marc-Olivier Barre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone? On 7/16/07, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I completely agree. My idea is to make two advertisment campains: one on maisntream media: maybe tv, maybe radio, flyre, poster, newspapers, wathever. This ads would be something like: The free phone, OpenMoko. The only one with The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator and so on. Don't even THINK of using based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx or With powerful ssh acess Calling it the free(d) phone to consumers (as opposed to developers) is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will. Why? Because (at least in North America) the major carriers have spent years, and billions of dollars, totally subverting the meaning of the phrase free phone to mean we give you the cheapest phone we can find and don't charge you for this piece of junk when you lock into a two- or three-year plan at some exorbitant rate that obviously includes the cost of the phone amortized. Seriously, ask consumers what a free phone means. at least 11 out of 10 will give you the definition above, at least the parts they understand. A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the free as in beer vs free as in speech argument. The phrase free phone already means the opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on. Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: Not the free phone
Hi, As on date, when you own a phone, even though it is 'your' phone, it is branded as company X or Y phone. If you go to country F, you see people using mostly only phones from company N, because it is owned in country F. If you go to country S, you see people using mostly only phones from company E, because it is owned in country S. [1] But, OpenMoko is beyond all those boundaries. It gives you the ability to call it really your own phone. So, why not call it as MyPhone, and brand it as My Phone in the native language of every country. Examples: US, UK: MyPhone China: 我电话 (wǒ diàn huà) India (Tamil): என்தொலைபேசி Regards, SK [1] Based on observation. No statistics. -- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
On 7/16/07, Shawn Rutledge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone? First thing I thought about when I saw youPhone was youTube... it seems a bit to obvious, sorry. __ Marc-Olivier Barre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
I like the tagline Your phone, your way. The idea is that we are putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different things to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in with the spirit of freedom. On 7/16/07, Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ian Darwin wrote: Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know. How about The Freedom Phone. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
On Monday 16 July 2007 20:24:18 Shawn Rutledge wrote: How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone? u is often short for the Greek letter \mu (in Latex notation) which in turn is used as a sign for micro in many places. That may confuse people as it might mean microphone then? pgpPDRRoFs3Pl.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
On 16 Jul 2007, at 19:49, Ryan Prior wrote: I like the tagline Your phone, your way. The idea is that we are putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different things to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in with the spirit of freedom. Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the software being there and working. Good planing is needed in the development stage as well as at the point where you sell the product :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
That is absolutely true! No amount of marketing to non-techies will help until we have a solid software stack which includes UI responsiveness and a tested user interface. The idea is not to start a ad campaign immediately -- the idea is to be ready when the time for advertising comes! Speaking of which, does anybody from FIC's marketing division read this list? If not, perhaps we could invite somebody? On 7/16/07, Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 16 Jul 2007, at 19:49, Ryan Prior wrote: I like the tagline Your phone, your way. The idea is that we are putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different things to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in with the spirit of freedom. Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the software being there and working. Good planing is needed in the development stage as well as at the point where you sell the product :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: Not the free phone
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:28, Daniel Bartholomew wrote: Well, since Apple has gone iThis and iThat with everything and dropped their use of PowerThis and PowerThat, why not co-opt that? How would you like a PowerPhone? -- Daniel Bartholomew Well, in a similar vein (throwing in my own silly thoughts..) Why not call it the UPhone... UPhone.. Make it what you want it to be... UPhone.. Its your phone, do what you want with it.. UPhone.. What do U want on it? Lol.. Ok, very silly. --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
OK.. Great minds think alike... Or maybe not. /grin On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:11, Shawn Rutledge wrote: How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone? On 7/16/07, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I completely agree. My idea is to make two advertisment campains: one on maisntream media: maybe tv, maybe radio, flyre, poster, newspapers, wathever. This ads would be something like: The free phone, OpenMoko. The only one with The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator and so on. Don't even THINK of using based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx or With powerful ssh acess Calling it the free(d) phone to consumers (as opposed to developers) is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will. Why? Because (at least in North America) the major carriers have spent years, and billions of dollars, totally subverting the meaning of the phrase free phone to mean we give you the cheapest phone we can find and don't charge you for this piece of junk when you lock into a two- or three-year plan at some exorbitant rate that obviously includes the cost of the phone amortized. Seriously, ask consumers what a free phone means. at least 11 out of 10 will give you the definition above, at least the parts they understand. A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the free as in beer vs free as in speech argument. The phrase free phone already means the opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on. Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts
I thought of that too but don't see it as a problem. Still seems like a euphonious name to me. On 7/16/07, Marc-Olivier Barre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/16/07, Shawn Rutledge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone? First thing I thought about when I saw youPhone was youTube... it seems a bit to obvious, sorry. __ Marc-Olivier Barre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts - unleash
Unleash your phone. Original Message Shawn Rutledge on Mon-16-Jul 07 8:24PM A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the free as in beer vs free as in speech argument. The phrase free phone already means the opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on. Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Not the free phone
How 'bout For those who prefer JTAG to Bluetooth. or It's not just a phone, it's a hobby. or Get one before the phone companies figure out what they are. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts - unleash
On 7/16/07, Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unleash your phone. Neo 1973 : phone - and more OpenMoko : not just a phone -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Norway ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: Not the free phone
ok, why not something totaly different from free, freedom and open? I'd call it the tuxphone. br ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Giles Jones wrote: Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the software being there and working. Oh, finally. Thanks, Giles. I'd have to say that academic is an understatement: if you actually sold one to someone who wasn't capable of building and installing a Linux system on the device, and wasn't aware that the software was incomplete and unstable, you'd be doing them a serious disservice if you created the impression that this was a phone on which they'd be able to rely on a day-to-day basis. I have no idea who folks are hoping to market this phone to in this fashion. If you're going after the open source community, you can count on selling dozens; maybe even scores. But there's no way that this device can be marketed to _real_ end-users until the software is in a substantially more solid state. On average, folks who buy cell phones are not likely to buy one based on the notion that one provides more liberty--they'll have no idea what you're talking about, and if you attempt to explain it, they'll _still_ have no idea what you're talking about. In fact, you're going to have to work harder to sell an unlocked phone to folks (at least in the States, where such things are pretty rare) at all--it's actually _less_ convenient for them, in that they're going to have to go through a run-around with some carrier or other to get service. Even the Your phone, your way message is quite misleading. I haven't attempted to get a naked SIM card from, say, ATT, but I bet they're not especially well set-up to handle requests like that. It's even possible that they might refuse to do it at all: carriers have requirements for the devices which use their networks, and they might well insist that you obtain _some_ phone from them to surround your SIM card with. _Now_ your big marketing challenge becomes explaining to my grandma why she needs to get a _different_ phone in order to use _this_ phone. All of this freedom talk is both off the mark, as well as beside the point, in my opinion. The best thing people can do to make this all a reality is to help out with the software development, if they're able to. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts - unleash
On 16 Jul 2007, at 22:13, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: On 7/16/07, Eric Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unleash your phone. Neo 1973 : phone - and more OpenMoko : not just a phone Neo 1973 - The phone you truly own. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: Not the free phone
Sven wrote: I'd call it the tuxphone. Why? Do you need to be wearing a tuxedo to use it...? (Yes, _I_ know, and _you_ know, but trust me, Sean will be spending the next year answering exactly that sort of question.) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: Not the free phone
On 7/17/07, David Lefty Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sven wrote: I'd call it the tuxphone. Why? Do you need to be wearing a tuxedo to use it...? (Yes, _I_ know, and _you_ know, but trust me, Sean will be spending the next year answering exactly that sort of question.) and the tuxphone already exists - check out http://hbmobile.org (the home brew mobile phone club). they are attempting to build a range of mobile phones and name check openmoko as a suitable OS ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Giles Jones wrote: On 16 Jul 2007, at 19:49, Ryan Prior wrote: I like the tagline Your phone, your way. The idea is that we are putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different things to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in with the spirit of freedom. Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the software being there and working. Good planing is needed in the development stage as well as at the point where you sell the product :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I like the MyPhone and Your Phone ideas the best so far. Of course, MyPhone is already taken as a current phone product. One idea would be to leave the word phone off all together, since that is kind of redundant. Make the tag name be something that's defines itself, like Google did. Regardless of the final tag name, I can see the end of the OpenMoko commercialSean Moss Pultz sort of off center camera with a stark white background (a la Apple commercials).Sean answers his Neo then extends his arm with the face of the Neo filling the camera and says, It's for you. Cheers./lost+found/.Cassj~ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Not the free phone
Let's make it work first. On 7/16/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Giles Jones wrote: On 16 Jul 2007, at 19:49, Ryan Prior wrote: I like the tagline Your phone, your way. The idea is that we are putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different things to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in with the spirit of freedom. Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the software being there and working. Good planing is needed in the development stage as well as at the point where you sell the product :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I like the MyPhone and Your Phone ideas the best so far. Of course, MyPhone is already taken as a current phone product. One idea would be to leave the word phone off all together, since that is kind of redundant. Make the tag name be something that's defines itself, like Google did. Regardless of the final tag name, I can see the end of the OpenMoko commercialSean Moss Pultz sort of off center camera with a stark white background (a la Apple commercials).Sean answers his Neo then extends his arm with the face of the Neo filling the camera and says, It's for you. Cheers./lost+found/.Cassj~ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
