Re: built-in scripting languages.
Bryan Larsen wrote: [...] A scripting language should be chosen as the default. Yes, it'll be a hard choice, but there's also no 'wrong choice' (except for none). I've put a lot of work into http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage. Please comment here or on the discussion page. Yes this page is very good. One thing you might want to note also is that there is a nice C++ binding for Python in boost www.boost.org. Please don't infer from this that I am a big Python fan, most of my scripting to date has been with Perl, however I do see Python as being a language that could be more generally useful as a default. Harold, Sean and the rest of the OpenMoko team: please, please make a decision, and make it soon. There are several of us that are delaying development of OpenMoko applications in the hope that a scripting language will be chosen soon. Certainly this would be nice to know. Jamie Apologies for quoting so liberally from list e-mails, but I feel it was the right thing to do. thank you, Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
Jamie Allsop пишет: Yes this page is very good. One thing you might want to note also is that there is a nice C++ binding for Python in boost www.boost.org. Please don't infer from this that I am a big Python fan, most of my scripting to date has been with Perl, however I do see Python as being a language that could be more generally useful as a default. Once upon a time there was a nice idea to make Scheme the default scripting language for the GNU project. (And it even worked in Gimp :) Today I suddenly realized I had been wasting my time by not porting some Common Lisp implementation to OpenMoko. :) I was waiting for the hardware, but I could use an emulator! Am I correct? Will a working clisp or say, gambit scheme influence the choice of default scripting language? :) Sincerely yours, Dmitri ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
Is there a way to add a poll feature to the wiki? This would give a quantitative about the community's opinion... Cheers Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
What about: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Poll Seems strange not to have this extension in the wiki... Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
On Apr 18, 2007, at 1:44 AM, Dmitri Hrapof wrote: Jamie Allsop пишет: Yes this page is very good. One thing you might want to note also is that there is a nice C++ binding for Python in boost www.boost.org. Please don't infer from this that I am a big Python fan, most of my scripting to date has been with Perl, however I do see Python as being a language that could be more generally useful as a default. Once upon a time there was a nice idea to make Scheme the default scripting language for the GNU project. (And it even worked in Gimp :) Yes, unfortunately it was still Scheme. Today I suddenly realized I had been wasting my time by not porting some Common Lisp implementation to OpenMoko. :) Yes, you are. Get to work! :-) I was waiting for the hardware, but I could use an emulator! Am I correct? quite Will a working clisp or say, gambit scheme influence the choice of default scripting language? :) Unlikely, but I would use it. You don't want a scripting language, you want a language that makes it possible to build domain-specific languages. Jim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
PyGTK looks like the most likely contender to me -- not just because I wrote a book about it and I'm the author of almost everything Python-related in OE, but also because PyGTK is pretty mature and easy to extend (you probably have seen Zecke's work in wrapping the Moko classes did you?). The thing that worries me is the performance. The Neo1973 has a really slow CPU. I didn't test on a device yet, but I'm afraid running 'import gtk' alone will take roughly 30 seconds, if not more. We will probably have to jump through hoops to make _any_ scripting language to perform reasonably on the Neo1973 (first incarnation). Cheers, -- - Michael Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
On Apr 18, 2007, at 2:41 AM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: PyGTK looks like the most likely contender to me -- not just because I wrote a book about it and I'm the author of almost everything Python-related in OE, but also because PyGTK is pretty mature and easy to extend (you probably have seen Zecke's work in wrapping the Moko classes did you?). The thing that worries me is the performance. The Neo1973 has a really slow CPU. I didn't test on a device yet, but I'm afraid running 'import gtk' alone will take roughly 30 seconds, if not more. We will probably have to jump through hoops to make _any_ scripting language to perform reasonably on the Neo1973 (first incarnation). Well, python is known to be slow. There is plenty of CPU on the OpenMoko for something like Lua.. or lisp, or scheme might look into Chicken Scheme: http://www.call-with-current- continuation.org/index.html It runs on the Nokia 770: http://chicken.wiki.br/chicken%20on% 20handhelds, and the Zaurus, both of which have less CPU than the Neo1973. Chicken Scheme compiles to 'C'. Its fast, way faster than Python. http://curiousprogrammer.wordpress.com/2006/09/25/switching-scheme- implementations/ One of the more recent additions to Chicken is the 'Easy Foreign Function Interface'. This enables you to embed C or C++ code inside your Scheme code and it gets converted to Scheme automatically. The example given in the manual http://chicken.wiki.br/easyffi or http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/chicken.pdf uses Chicken Scheme to write a Qt application. The Qt classes get automatic wrappers generated using the object system (TinyClos). So the actual Scheme code looks like: (define a (apply make QApplication (receive (argc+argv (define hello (make QPushButton hello world! #f)) (resize hello 100 30) (setMainWidget a hello) (show hello) (exec a) (destroy hello) (destroy a) There is a GTK SWIG for Chicken: http://wiki.freaks-unidos.net/ chicken-gtk Someone should also look into putting Einstein http:// www.kallisys.com/newton/einstein/ the NewtonOS port on the Neo1973. It already runs on the Nokia 770 and the Zaurus. Jim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
I think maybe we need a new version of Godwin's law... any discussion about scripting languages should stop as soon as someone mentions Lisp (or Smalltalk.) But seriously... speed probably shouldn't be THE deciding factor in a built-in scripting language. It's the ability to get things done simply. I think that's why javascript / livewire made it's way into Navigator and Spyglass. They were just enough to get done what needed doing. I've never been the worlds biggest fan of AppleScript, but I like that Apple says it's there to stitch apps together. At PalmSource, some of the Ex-Be guys worked on a tool called the Binder (now known as OpenBinder (as in http://openbinder.org/)). I come from a CORBA background, so I was slightly less than impressed that the only language bindings it supported out of the box was C++. But, for a while there, PalmSource was pushing the idea of opening up all application objects to a regular interface and adding other language bindings. So... whatever the default scripting language, let's just make sure it has a way to get at the objects exposed by applications. That being said... I vote for Smalltalk. -Cheers -Matt H. On Apr 18, 2007, at 6:47 AM, Jim Thompson wrote: On Apr 18, 2007, at 2:41 AM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: PyGTK looks like the most likely contender to me -- not just because I wrote a book about it and I'm the author of almost everything Python-related in OE, but also because PyGTK is pretty mature and easy to extend (you probably have seen Zecke's work in wrapping the Moko classes did you?). The thing that worries me is the performance. The Neo1973 has a really slow CPU. I didn't test on a device yet, but I'm afraid running 'import gtk' alone will take roughly 30 seconds, if not more. We will probably have to jump through hoops to make _any_ scripting language to perform reasonably on the Neo1973 (first incarnation). Well, python is known to be slow. There is plenty of CPU on the OpenMoko for something like Lua.. or lisp, or scheme might look into Chicken Scheme: http://www.call-with-current- continuation.org/index.html It runs on the Nokia 770: http://chicken.wiki.br/chicken%20on% 20handhelds, and the Zaurus, both of which have less CPU than the Neo1973. Chicken Scheme compiles to 'C'. Its fast, way faster than Python. http://curiousprogrammer.wordpress.com/2006/09/25/switching-scheme- implementations/ One of the more recent additions to Chicken is the 'Easy Foreign Function Interface'. This enables you to embed C or C++ code inside your Scheme code and it gets converted to Scheme automatically. The example given in the manual http://chicken.wiki.br/easyffi or http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/chicken.pdf uses Chicken Scheme to write a Qt application. The Qt classes get automatic wrappers generated using the object system (TinyClos). So the actual Scheme code looks like: (define a (apply make QApplication (receive (argc+argv (define hello (make QPushButton hello world! #f)) (resize hello 100 30) (setMainWidget a hello) (show hello) (exec a) (destroy hello) (destroy a) There is a GTK SWIG for Chicken: http://wiki.freaks-unidos.net/ chicken-gtk Someone should also look into putting Einstein http:// www.kallisys.com/newton/einstein/ the NewtonOS port on the Neo1973. It already runs on the Nokia 770 and the Zaurus. Jim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
Am 18.04.2007 um 19:02 schrieb Matthew S. Hamrick: I think maybe we need a new version of Godwin's law... any discussion about scripting languages should stop as soon as someone mentions Lisp (or Smalltalk.) Well, as a Mac addict, I propose to consider AppleScript, Automator and F-Script :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
I would like to propose a number of bindings a preferred scripting language should have - Bluetooth bindings - Webservice bindings, 'lightweight' request/response access to networked services - Persistence bindings, optimized access to large datasets (sqlite?) On Tuesday 03 April 2007 21:54:26 Bryan Larsen wrote: A scripting language should be chosen as the default. Yes, it'll be a hard choice, but there's also no 'wrong choice' (except for none). I've put a lot of work into http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage. Please comment here or on the discussion page. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
On 4/3/07, Bryan Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] However, developers who choose one of these languages for their applications will not be able to see their applications included in the standard ROM nor available for use by those without an external microSD card. [...] I'm not sure why you need an external MicroSD card, but all Neo's come with a 512 MB MicroSD card. Sean mentioned that in the FOSDEM presentation. Also, see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_much.3F -Steven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
Steven ** wrote: I'm not sure why you need an external MicroSD card, but all Neo's come with a 512 MB MicroSD card. Sean mentioned that in the FOSDEM presentation. Also, see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_much.3F Sure, the developer's kit comes with a microSD card. I expect all developer's to have one. I'm worried about end users. I don't expect all user phones to come with a micro SD card. I also don't expect phones to come with firmware installed on the micro SD cards. I expect users to balk when installing small applications that take up precious megabytes of space because a large scripting language is a prerequisite. I expect users to want to reserve their microSD cards for large music and video files. Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages.
Steven ** wrote: On 4/3/07, Bryan Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] However, developers who choose one of these languages for their applications will not be able to see their applications included in the standard ROM nor available for use by those without an external microSD card. [...] I'm not sure why you need an external MicroSD card, but all Neo's come with a 512 MB MicroSD card. Sean mentioned that in the FOSDEM presentation. Also, see It would be very nice if 'core' applications fitted on the internal NAND flash. If they don't, then this essentially means that users can't easily change out their SD cards. Being utterly unable to power down your phone, and swap the cards over from your camera as you've forgotten the lead, to send a picture to someone, for example would be really annoying. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
My opinion -as an end user as programmer with medium experience- is that the phone should implement a stable version of a known widelly accepted scripting language and it should stick with it. That way the masses of users developers will have a stable point of reference. If they don't like it they can change it and use whatever they want (but they would have to include CLEAR step-to -step instructions for installation). -If perl version X1 is implemented it should stay -even if there is a newer better version of perl. All the programmers should have perl ver X1 as reference even if ver X2 is out and its better with lots of bug fixes. Sometimes there are incompabilities between different version of languages. **Most low-experienced programmers don't want to lose their creativity on thinking whether their program will work in newer/older language versions ** -If someone wants to program to version X2 he should state in his software that ver X2 is required and should be installed. End users will end up with 2 perl distributions but everyone would still be certain that if they use ver X1 it will work -and that is what the non-proffesional programmers might want. -Personnaly I prefer having a point of reference language version that I know that whatever I write will work-no matter what (even with bugs) ,than having a language which I can upgrade every month with critical patches other bug fixes. This is very important if you don't want unexperienced users coplaining about icopabillity problems. -If someone wants to write a very important application which depends on stabillity he can write it in whichever language or version he wants - Its important ,though,to include CLEAR installation instructions (with links to all needed stuff) for non advanced users. -If someone writes something in the suggested standard ver.X1 and want to use an add-on or a bug fix he should include it in his distibution package -or link it (if there are size/copyright issues). I think perl is a tested widelly supported language with lots of add-ons. Maybe language is better but I bet that most users are using perl atm. Summarizing: 1. Decide which version of a tested widelly accepted script-language will be used and will be pre-installed (I suggest perl). 2. Whoever want to use another version/language should include CLEAR instalation instruction (step-by-step) for the end-users. 3. Compabillity stability are keywords to getting the attention on the masses of end-users or wannabe programmers. !!! -General comment : Please if you want to comment things that are irrelevant to a subject topic (eg the GNU/Linux wars) ,please do so in a different topic. Thanks - It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Richard Franks wrote: On 1/22/07, Derek Pressnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a different (but related) track, I've always wanted to have a web browser that was capable of executing local cgi scripts without the need for client-side http server. Pah! Internet Explorer has had that for *ages*. Lynx also supports this (probably longer than IE ;)) --enable-cgi-links(define LYNXCGI_LINKS) Allows lynx to access a cgi script directly without the need for a http daemon. -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
2007/1/23, Jay Trister [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My opinion -as an end user as programmer with medium experience- is that the phone should implement a stable version of a known widelly accepted scripting language and it should stick with it. I'm affraid of using interpreted and dynamically typed languages in embedded environment, like cellphone. Especially when using GSM API -- it's much easier to omit bug in interpreted language on embedded device than compiled one. Cellphones we know have GUI so strictly bounded to phone we don't even mention it. One display check and you know what happens with connection. OpenMoko will (probably) bahave differently -- man can even not notice at all that call is active. So if your script calls somewhere then fails silently, you will pay a lot. Summarizing: 1. Decide which version of a tested widelly accepted script-language will be used and will be pre-installed (I suggest perl). Yeah, like times when we were stuck with buggy and poor Java 1.1 in browsers for over 6 years, then flash came and ruled market. 2. Whoever want to use another version/language should include CLEAR instalation instruction (step-by-step) for the end-users. Package dependency should care it. -- Tomek Z. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Quote : Yeah, like times when we were stuck with buggy and poor Java 1.1 in Quoting myself : 1. Decide which version of a tested widelly accepted script-language will be used and will be pre-installed (I suggest perl). Perl for example (you can suggest another lang) is used widelly. If the last stable version was ...unstable we would know it. I'm not suggesting getting the latest version of a scripting language. I'm suggesting of getting the testedstable version (even if its older). - Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Quote : Yeah, like times when we were stuck with buggy and poor Java 1.1 in Forgot to mention that I think that a Java implementation is more important than a scripting language. (had to say that again :-) ). - Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Sorry, I have to completely disagree with you. On Tue, 2007-01-23 at 11:21 +0100, Tomasz Zielinski wrote: I'm affraid of using interpreted and dynamically typed languages in embedded environment, like cellphone. Especially when using GSM API -- it's much easier to omit bug in interpreted language on embedded device than compiled one. Blatently untrue. Bugs are introduced by human error. High level languages means that humans do less work at the cost of lower performance and space. Less work means less opportunity to introduce bugs. In Perl,Python,Ruby,Lua you typically don't have to Check bounds, do type casting, pointer arithmetic etc etc. A simple look at any of mailing list for a decient C project shows that even mature C/C++ developers create these types of bugs all the time. It goes with the territory. Cellphones we know have GUI so strictly bounded to phone we don't even mention it. One display check and you know what happens with connection. OpenMoko will (probably) bahave differently -- man can even not notice at all that call is active. So if your script calls somewhere then fails silently, you will pay a lot. With all the love in the world, this is FUD. Regards, Red ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Fw: Re: built-in scripting languages
Bah, forgot to reply all. I think that's an excellent idea actually... A website where you can log into, set up preferences about the packages you have installed and build an image based on that. Is that ability already in existence? I mean, I am sure ipkg has the ability to update all of your currently installed packages, but it doesn't build an image for you to clean install on your system.. Right? Or am I out of touch again (it happens often I think lol). Or would anything be gained by clean installing a new image on your device? Is there anything which can't be upgraded or installed by ipkg? --Tim On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:59, Carlo E. Prelz wrote: I have a suggestion: a do-it-yourself main distribution packaging site from FIC, where you can choose selected alternative components, and receive as a result your own personalized 64MB. Then, naturally, I will have to see if it is acceptable for me not to use all those applications that require those scripting languages for which there is no space on my main memory. --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
There are already (I assume) at least two very powerful scripting languages on the OpenMoko. The first is sh in whatever variant they decide to include. I've used sh to write CGI scripts on a couple of deeply embedded web servers; you'd be surprised how much can be done with just boa+busybox. The other is javascript, which I assume will be included with the web browser. Javascript is a very powerful modern scripting language (it has closures and other cool stuff that python is only now getting). Javascript gets lots of bad press because the APIs that browsers provide are often awful and incompatible, but the core Javascript language is very nice. Since a javascript interpreter is going to be provided as part of the stock build, perhaps it would be nice to allow it to be used outside of its browser sandbox? The power of Perl Python lies not in the language itself; the power is the huge standard libraries as well as external libraries available. On an embedded platform, these cannot be necessarily counted on. Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Derek Pressnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 19:40]: Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. Technically speaking, Python is not that big. A huge non-optimized version in Debian Sarge, with all kinds of optional external stuff installed comes at 23MB. Optimizing Python2.5 so that it fits small devices is not exactly a problem. The question is more, how much space can we spare? Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 21:30]: * Derek Pressnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 19:40]: Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. Technically speaking, Python is not that big. A huge non-optimized Ok, without optimizing much, just packaging it up a little bit, I've managed to minimize python2.5 (supercomplete set) to less than 10MB. If anyone is interested, I can try to build an even smaller version of python that is useful. I'd second also the idea to make the embedded JavaScript available for scripting, which would be a nice language too. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 13:28, Andreas Kostyrka wrote: * Derek Pressnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 19:40]: Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. Technically speaking, Python is not that big. The question is more, how much space can we spare? I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ), easily embedable, dynamically typed, full-featured, multi-paradigm, and has been in real-world use for many years, has two books, actively maintained, and is very popular in a few niche areas such as games scripting. I'm not offering the suggestion because it is my favorite/pet language, but because I can see that it may be a very good fit in an embedded device. http://www.lua.org http://lua-users.org/wiki/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_programming_language ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ) 6M??? http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=luaaction=search show that it will take much less then 1M -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ) 6M??? http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=luaaction=search show that it will take much less then 1M Quite right: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ $ du -shc /usr/bin/lua* /usr/lib/*lua* /usr/include/lua* 200K/usr/bin/lua 148K/usr/bin/luac 180K/usr/lib/liblua.a 132K/usr/lib/liblua.so.5.0 112K/usr/lib/liblualib.a 76K /usr/lib/liblualib.so.5.0 12K /usr/include/lua.h 4.0K/usr/include/lualib.h 864Ktotal ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On 10:12:00 pm 2007-01-22 Corey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ) 6M??? http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=luaaction=search show that it will take much less then 1M Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one desires can be added. Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. IMHO default install should have the really minimal setup needed to run and not one app extra. -- Andraž ruskie Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Key id = F4C1F89C Key fingerprint = 6FF2 8F20 4C9D DB36 B5B6 F134 884D 72CC F4C1 F89C ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Andra?? 'ruskie' Levstik [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 22:52]: On 10:12:00 pm 2007-01-22 Corey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia poniedzia??ek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisa??: I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ) 6M??? http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=luaaction=search show that it will take much less then 1M Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one desires can be added. Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. IMHO default install should have the really minimal setup needed to run and not one app extra. The problem here is, that it might be useful to have a standard language so that the standard apps can use it for embedded scripting. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 14:49, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one desires can be added. It's true that you have the ability to add anything to the phone. There's another important consideration to remember: OpenMoko is a platform also; an inherent aspect of such a platform is that it always come shipped with X standard api's available for developers. This is why FIC had to select a group of components: gcc, glibc, xorg/kdrive, dbus and gtk, for instance. They may decide that a scripting language would also be a necessary or beneficial feature to include in the base/standard platform -- which, to answer your question, is why this is even being discussed. Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. Choice is good. And so is having a known/standard/default/static api and platform to build from; when I begin writting commercial and/or free software for the OpenMoko, I will design my software according the existing OpenMoko specs, and thereby circumvent the necessity of having to verify that my customers/end users have first installed the necessary scripting language, which would additionally circumvent the probability that your phone will end up with every scripting language known to man. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. Less than one meg of space would be potentially wasted, true enough in your case. Know that there is probably plenty of other software on the OpenMoko platform that you, yourself, will not be using. Also realize that though _you_ may not be directly using this hypothetical scripting language, it is more than likely that one or more of the standard apps that ship with the phone will be using it, and that other 3rd party software that you may or may not install may also be using it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. I want to agree with this, but I'd like to point out one small problem with it: if you have an app written in one of these languages, you have to install the whole interpreter anyway. And god forbid you should have two apps, both of which are written with the same interpreter, both of which install their own (possibly conflicting) version of it. So in order to agree with this, we nevertheless have to talk about the problem: how do we ensure that if an end-user wants to run an app written in python, and another written in ruby, and a third written in python, that they get exactly two interpreters installed on their Neo, and not three? There are a couple of ways to solve this problem, but the point is that if you just leave it open and let nobody solve it, you may wind up with an unpalatable result for the end-user. And the result for the end-user is important - if the Neo is only useful to geeks, it can't accomplish its stated goals. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 15:33, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Let me rephrase then. Have it defined as a standard-optional component that can be used. But isn't installed by default. Won't ipkg have dependency resolution etc? Yes, so the dependency aspect will likely be a non-issue; hopefully! So have official/unofficial packages that handle the major scripting languages. That way it's possible to have any scripting language used. Definitely an adequate situation, as far as I can see; and additionally appears to be the model that the OpenMoko folks have perhaps already decided upon, seeing how there is currently no mention of a scripting interpreter in the platform specification. The only potential downfall may be that everyone ends up with quite a few interpreters on their poor little phones... python, ruby, rhino, lua, perl, etc, etc.. ... which of course may just end up happening anyhow, even should there be a standard default scripting environment defined on the platform. At any rate, I sure fear the sort of language war that could develop if a particular scripting language was to be selected! As far as I'm personally concerned though, I'd end up using whatever that choice happened to be, but many others a likely to have a much less relaxed attitude on the matter. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Jan 22, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: So when you put your first python application on, ipkg will conclude you need python. When you put your second on, it will conclude you've alrady got python. Sure. So in that case it does make sense to talk about standard versions of each interpreter, and to not talk about a standard interpreter. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Ted Lemon [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 23:21]: On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Andra? 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. I want to agree with this, but I'd like to point out one small problem with it: if you have an app written in one of these languages, you have to install the whole interpreter anyway. And god forbid you should have two apps, both of which are written with the same interpreter, both of which install their own (possibly conflicting) version of it. conflicting versions of interpreters are quite seldom, at least in Python-land. (That's perhaps because python has some community processes that let's the developers know what will be enabled in the next version, new keywords/syntax need normally imports from __future__ *g*, e.g. taking a look at python 2.5 I can know what keywords/changes will be enabled by default in 2.6) So in order to agree with this, we nevertheless have to talk about the problem: how do we ensure that if an end-user wants to run an app written in python, and another written in ruby, and a third written in python, that they get exactly two interpreters installed on their Neo, and not three? Python usually is pretty well back-wards compatible. In Unix-practice one just distributes the scripts/modules and uses the python that is installed on the box. Guess the same thing applies more or less to Ruby, albeit it's not yet standard on that many distributions as Python. There are a couple of ways to solve this problem, but the point is that if you just leave it open and let nobody solve it, you may wind up with an unpalatable result for the end-user. And the result for the end-user is important - if the Neo is only useful to geeks, it can't accomplish its stated goals. ipkg install python = you get the standard python and that's it. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Ted Lemon writes: On Jan 22, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: So when you put your first python application on, ipkg will conclude you need python. When you put your second on, it will conclude you've alrady got python. Sure. So in that case it does make sense to talk about standard versions of each interpreter, and to not talk about a standard interpreter. Different, but equally valid questions. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On 1/22/07, Derek Pressnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a different (but related) track, I've always wanted to have a web browser that was capable of executing local cgi scripts without the need for client-side http server. Pah! Internet Explorer has had that for *ages*. But for non-windows, this might come a closer depending upon your need: http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/ As your server-side java classes can be shared with a client-side java app. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 16:07, Ben Burdette wrote: The only potential downfall may be that everyone ends up with quite a few interpreters on their poor little phones... python, ruby, rhino, lua, perl, etc, etc.. That's all well and good when everyone has SPACE for every scripting language known to man. But use 10mb here, 10mb there for scripting languages, and suddenly there's nothing left of my 64mb of flash. Totally. I'm all for allowing people to use whatever scripting language they want. But I'd like the peace of mind of knowing I can write a scripted app that will run on every OpenMoko phone out there, even if they have no memory expansion card. I concur 100% ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Tue, 2007-01-23 at 10:12 +0800, Ben Lau wrote: I also think that it should come with none of any scripting language beside shell script and Javascript (by web browser). Python/Perl is too huge. It's a balance. Size utilization against use. So, the questions I would ask if I were a proponent for having an installed high level language would be: 1) What useful software is there for this platform which has a specifical language as a dependancy. 2) What is the absolute minimum installation required to achive this functionality. The smaller your core and the more useful stuff it contributes the better chance you have of it being included by default. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
