Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
On Saturday 24 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am 23.05.2008 um 20:49 schrieb Lorn Potter: If anyone is in the position to change that, it's we. I don't like so sound to negative. I like most of the changes. But i think throwing the gtk apps away and replace them by the QTopia apps is stupid. I would rather like to see a transition to EFL for the gtk apps. Everything i have seen so far from qtopia apps looks bland and boring. Qtopia is easily changed/hacked on. The source code is provided for free. You would be amazed at what some of Qtopia's customers are doing with it. It's got styles/theming, has dynamic layouting, and easy translating even for LTR languages. I like to get surprised... :) I like the qtopia plattform, as a plattform. But i don't think it's the way to build the nerdiest phone ever. Especially after so much was done right before in a completely different way. Qtopia AFAIK has it's own pim storage api. How would non-qt apps use them? Qtopia pim data are stored in a sqlite database. It is not a secret, nor is it proprietary or locked down. So your application has a choice whether to use some library that can access sqlite (Qtopia has that of course), or use the commandline interface to sqlite. Well, that is a long time after embedded evolution data server was declared the way to go on openmoko. And just my 2 Eurocents. I think this was a good decision. And the gsm stuff? Does this mean we now use the qtpia gsm stack? letting gsmd die would probably one of the better ideas. But i rather like so see it replaced by something similar but working instead of a set of qt apis. What is wrong with Qtopia's gsm stack? For the most part, it works. It doesn't crash, and can send and receive sms messages. and best of all, it's already written and working. If someone wrote/'ported' a wap stack, it would even do mms. AFAIK it's a qt-API not a daemon, server whatever. I assume this means the dialer app becomes part of the phone framework? The dialer can be replaced. It is not part of the QtopiaPhoneModem library, it is part of the server. Same concerns as for the PIM stuff. This makes gui apps infrastructure. Qtopia is not one big binary. It has it's own libraries. The apps are separate from the libraries. Let's put it this way. Once I got the hardware, it took me less than week to have Qtopia up and sending/receiving sms's and making phone calls. I always wondered why no one took teyr code and put it into something like gsmd. *g* Because the gsm code in Qtopia is specific to Qt and Qtopia. -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
On Saturday 24 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just wanted to add that I think Qtopia is very interesting, and I'm really looking forward to trying it on my neo, and thank you to Trolltech for helping out with getting it on X11 and on the neo, and for putting up with all the criticism. No worries, mate! Thanks for that. Also, for the QT-naysayers: all the software is opensource, and you can easily get the GTK stack back in there in no-time (hell, currently it's easier to find the GTK images than the ASU images). So, what's the big trouble? Just my couple of eurocents, and hoping to get my efl+qt+gtk neo soon. Ivo Anjo -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Michael Shiloh wrote: * Switches the Window Manager from Matchbox to Enlightenment (E17) Nice. * Ported Qtopia to Xorg, so it is possible to run Qtopia, GTK, ELF, and Python applications all at the same time Really nice. * Replaced the GTK-based basic phone suite (dialer, contacts, SMS) with ones based on Qtopia Why that? The old apps wheren't so bad. They even started to work in the last versions. :-) I liked the style, i liked the architecture. I can not really believe that anyone would like to throw that all away. Not mentioning that we walk on somewhat beaten tracks there. We hat more or less the same technology there as Maemo (Nokia) and Ubuntu mobile. And GPE fitted well too. I hate the Qtopia stuff. It makes a good software for classic mobile handsets. But nothing innovative. Just another mobile phone gui like all the others we have seen so far. It probably works well. But it is plainly boring. :-/ Will a 'new-world' Neo look anything like what i am used to right now? Or what will it look like anyway? Can i test the new stuff on my neo1973? The last build i checked was all 'classic' stuff. Maybe i like it, after i used it... :) Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Hi Tilman I think they prefered to use an existent project, because they need something running and to concentrate their energy to hardware part. They want to concentrate to the project of hardware, not in GUI writing. According me is a good idea to reuse the software wrote by other people. In every case the software previously written in not trashed. It is released with open licences and it can be implemented by someone who hate too much Qtopia. Concorrence is always good for users :) Tilman Baumann wrote: Why that? The old apps wheren't so bad. They even started to work in the last versions. :-) I liked the style, i liked the architecture. I can not really believe that anyone would like to throw that all away. Not mentioning that we walk on somewhat beaten tracks there. We hat more or less the same technology there as Maemo (Nokia) and Ubuntu mobile. And GPE fitted well too. I hate the Qtopia stuff. It makes a good software for classic mobile handsets. But nothing innovative. Just another mobile phone gui like all the others we have seen so far. It probably works well. But it is plainly boring. :-/ Will a 'new-world' Neo look anything like what i am used to right now? Or what will it look like anyway? Can i test the new stuff on my neo1973? The last build i checked was all 'classic' stuff. Maybe i like it, after i used it... :) Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Michele Renda wrote: Hi Tilman I think they prefered to use an existent project, because they need something running and to concentrate their energy to hardware part. They want to concentrate to the project of hardware, not in GUI writing. Openmoko is a Software project. The software is the only thing that helps to make this 1990ies like piece of hardware cool. According me is a good idea to reuse the software wrote by other people. In every case the software previously written in not trashed. It is released with open licences and it can be implemented by someone who hate too much Qtopia. Hope so. The problem is that the community has little resources. Dividing these resources does not sound like a good idea. And i cant's see how it helpes to throw most of the good work away. (Ok, some was crap. But nothing beyond repair) I think this will piss of developers. And users. Openmoko turned into a nice mobile computing platform with a very technocratic view on things. This is a feature. I would say, _the_ feature. Concorrence is always good for users :) Not necessarily. I prefer innovation. Especially in a industrey that has not produced innovation and good software for decades. (At least not since apple came.) If anyone is in the position to change that, it's we. I don't like so sound to negative. I like most of the changes. But i think throwing the gtk apps away and replace them by the QTopia apps is stupid. I would rather like to see a transition to EFL for the gtk apps. Everything i have seen so far from qtopia apps looks bland and boring. I like the qtopia plattform, as a plattform. But i don't think it's the way to build the nerdiest phone ever. Especially after so much was done right before in a completely different way. Qtopia AFAIK has it's own pim storage api. How would non-qt apps use them? And the gsm stuff? Does this mean we now use the qtpia gsm stack? letting gsmd die would probably one of the better ideas. But i rather like so see it replaced by something similar but working instead of a set of qt apis. Is there any place where to look which back end functionalities will change? Like evolution data server, dbus apis, gsmd, PhoneKit and such... Well, we will see... I should better keep my mouth shut and wait until there are GTA01 builds. Regards Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Tilman Baumann wrote: Well, we will see... I should better keep my mouth shut and wait until there are GTA01 builds. As i'm just in the mood of speaking about the devil right now. I hope this will not end as Nokia N770 all over again. I bought my Neo under the promise that all future software will run on them. (of course not as fast and without wlan and so on...) Going back to work now. Maybe this will provide me a way to redirect my bad attitude into something productive... *g* Tilman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
On Friday 23 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michele Renda wrote: Hi Tilman I think they prefered to use an existent project, because they need something running and to concentrate their energy to hardware part. They want to concentrate to the project of hardware, not in GUI writing. Openmoko is a Software project. The software is the only thing that helps to make this 1990ies like piece of hardware cool. According me is a good idea to reuse the software wrote by other people. In every case the software previously written in not trashed. It is released with open licences and it can be implemented by someone who hate too much Qtopia. Hope so. The problem is that the community has little resources. Dividing these resources does not sound like a good idea. And i cant's see how it helpes to throw most of the good work away. (Ok, some was crap. But nothing beyond repair) I think this will piss of developers. And users. You can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time. Openmoko turned into a nice mobile computing platform with a very technocratic view on things. This is a feature. I would say, _the_ feature. and it still exists. Concorrence is always good for users :) Not necessarily. I prefer innovation. Especially in a industrey that has not produced innovation and good software for decades. (At least not since apple came.) Apple has had their share of junker software/hardware. If anyone is in the position to change that, it's we. I don't like so sound to negative. I like most of the changes. But i think throwing the gtk apps away and replace them by the QTopia apps is stupid. I would rather like to see a transition to EFL for the gtk apps. Everything i have seen so far from qtopia apps looks bland and boring. Qtopia is easily changed/hacked on. The source code is provided for free. You would be amazed at what some of Qtopia's customers are doing with it. It's got styles/theming, has dynamic layouting, and easy translating even for LTR languages. I like the qtopia plattform, as a plattform. But i don't think it's the way to build the nerdiest phone ever. Especially after so much was done right before in a completely different way. Qtopia AFAIK has it's own pim storage api. How would non-qt apps use them? Qtopia pim data are stored in a sqlite database. It is not a secret, nor is it proprietary or locked down. So your application has a choice whether to use some library that can access sqlite (Qtopia has that of course), or use the commandline interface to sqlite. And the gsm stuff? Does this mean we now use the qtpia gsm stack? letting gsmd die would probably one of the better ideas. But i rather like so see it replaced by something similar but working instead of a set of qt apis. What is wrong with Qtopia's gsm stack? For the most part, it works. It doesn't crash, and can send and receive sms messages. and best of all, it's already written and working. If someone wrote/'ported' a wap stack, it would even do mms. Let's put it this way. Once I got the hardware, it took me less than week to have Qtopia up and sending/receiving sms's and making phone calls. Is there any place where to look which back end functionalities will change? Like evolution data server, dbus apis, gsmd, PhoneKit and such... Well, we will see... I should better keep my mouth shut and wait until there are GTA01 builds. Regards Tilman -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Am 23.05.2008 um 20:49 schrieb Lorn Potter: If anyone is in the position to change that, it's we. I don't like so sound to negative. I like most of the changes. But i think throwing the gtk apps away and replace them by the QTopia apps is stupid. I would rather like to see a transition to EFL for the gtk apps. Everything i have seen so far from qtopia apps looks bland and boring. Qtopia is easily changed/hacked on. The source code is provided for free. You would be amazed at what some of Qtopia's customers are doing with it. It's got styles/theming, has dynamic layouting, and easy translating even for LTR languages. I like to get surprised... :) I like the qtopia plattform, as a plattform. But i don't think it's the way to build the nerdiest phone ever. Especially after so much was done right before in a completely different way. Qtopia AFAIK has it's own pim storage api. How would non-qt apps use them? Qtopia pim data are stored in a sqlite database. It is not a secret, nor is it proprietary or locked down. So your application has a choice whether to use some library that can access sqlite (Qtopia has that of course), or use the commandline interface to sqlite. Well, that is a long time after embedded evolution data server was declared the way to go on openmoko. And just my 2 Eurocents. I think this was a good decision. And the gsm stuff? Does this mean we now use the qtpia gsm stack? letting gsmd die would probably one of the better ideas. But i rather like so see it replaced by something similar but working instead of a set of qt apis. What is wrong with Qtopia's gsm stack? For the most part, it works. It doesn't crash, and can send and receive sms messages. and best of all, it's already written and working. If someone wrote/'ported' a wap stack, it would even do mms. AFAIK it's a qt-API not a daemon, server whatever. I assume this means the dialer app becomes part of the phone framework? Same concerns as for the PIM stuff. This makes gui apps infrastructure. Let's put it this way. Once I got the hardware, it took me less than week to have Qtopia up and sending/receiving sms's and making phone calls. I always wondered why no one took teyr code and put it into something like gsmd. *g* ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
I just wanted to add that I think Qtopia is very interesting, and I'm really looking forward to trying it on my neo, and thank you to Trolltech for helping out with getting it on X11 and on the neo, and for putting up with all the criticism. Also, for the QT-naysayers: all the software is opensource, and you can easily get the GTK stack back in there in no-time (hell, currently it's easier to find the GTK images than the ASU images). So, what's the big trouble? Just my couple of eurocents, and hoping to get my efl+qt+gtk neo soon. Ivo Anjo On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Lorn Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 23 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michele Renda wrote: Hi Tilman I think they prefered to use an existent project, because they need something running and to concentrate their energy to hardware part. They want to concentrate to the project of hardware, not in GUI writing. Openmoko is a Software project. The software is the only thing that helps to make this 1990ies like piece of hardware cool. According me is a good idea to reuse the software wrote by other people. In every case the software previously written in not trashed. It is released with open licences and it can be implemented by someone who hate too much Qtopia. Hope so. The problem is that the community has little resources. Dividing these resources does not sound like a good idea. And i cant's see how it helpes to throw most of the good work away. (Ok, some was crap. But nothing beyond repair) I think this will piss of developers. And users. You can please some of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time. Openmoko turned into a nice mobile computing platform with a very technocratic view on things. This is a feature. I would say, _the_ feature. and it still exists. Concorrence is always good for users :) Not necessarily. I prefer innovation. Especially in a industrey that has not produced innovation and good software for decades. (At least not since apple came.) Apple has had their share of junker software/hardware. If anyone is in the position to change that, it's we. I don't like so sound to negative. I like most of the changes. But i think throwing the gtk apps away and replace them by the QTopia apps is stupid. I would rather like to see a transition to EFL for the gtk apps. Everything i have seen so far from qtopia apps looks bland and boring. Qtopia is easily changed/hacked on. The source code is provided for free. You would be amazed at what some of Qtopia's customers are doing with it. It's got styles/theming, has dynamic layouting, and easy translating even for LTR languages. I like the qtopia plattform, as a plattform. But i don't think it's the way to build the nerdiest phone ever. Especially after so much was done right before in a completely different way. Qtopia AFAIK has it's own pim storage api. How would non-qt apps use them? Qtopia pim data are stored in a sqlite database. It is not a secret, nor is it proprietary or locked down. So your application has a choice whether to use some library that can access sqlite (Qtopia has that of course), or use the commandline interface to sqlite. And the gsm stuff? Does this mean we now use the qtpia gsm stack? letting gsmd die would probably one of the better ideas. But i rather like so see it replaced by something similar but working instead of a set of qt apis. What is wrong with Qtopia's gsm stack? For the most part, it works. It doesn't crash, and can send and receive sms messages. and best of all, it's already written and working. If someone wrote/'ported' a wap stack, it would even do mms. Let's put it this way. Once I got the hardware, it took me less than week to have Qtopia up and sending/receiving sms's and making phone calls. Is there any place where to look which back end functionalities will change? Like evolution data server, dbus apis, gsmd, PhoneKit and such... Well, we will see... I should better keep my mouth shut and wait until there are GTA01 builds. Regards Tilman -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
On Thursday 22 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had some further discussions with headquarters, and have edited my blog to try to explain the new software a little better. The important facts are that the new software: * Switches the Window Manager from Matchbox to Enlightenment (E17) * Ported Qtopia to Xorg, so it is possible to run Qtopia, GTK, ELF, and Python applications all at the same time Actually, Trolltech had done most of the 'porting' to X11 work already. * Replaced the GTK-based basic phone suite (dialer, contacts, SMS) with ones based on Qtopia I hope this better explains the situation. Regards, Michael (Full posting at http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/openmoko-software-up date/) -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:58:43 +1000 Lorn Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Thursday 22 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had some further discussions with headquarters, and have edited my blog to try to explain the new software a little better. The important facts are that the new software: * Switches the Window Manager from Matchbox to Enlightenment (E17) * Ported Qtopia to Xorg, so it is possible to run Qtopia, GTK, ELF, and Python applications all at the same time Actually, Trolltech had done most of the 'porting' to X11 work already. indeed - though it has needed much loving so it behaves normally or even optimally in x when you have a window manager... :) * Replaced the GTK-based basic phone suite (dialer, contacts, SMS) with ones based on Qtopia I hope this better explains the situation. Regards, Michael (Full posting at http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/openmoko-software-up date/) -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
On Wednesday 21 May 2008 21:45:37 Michael Shiloh wrote: * Ported Qtopia to Xorg, so it is possible to run Qtopia, GTK, ELF, and Python applications all at the same time Hmmm... Just wondering if anyone has seen this: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/05/13/introducing-qgtkstyle/ Basically Jens has written a Qt4 style which will use the current GTK+ theme to draw stuff. I think it might be useful on OpenMoko because it has the potential to give the Qtopia/X11 apps the same look feel as the GTK+ apps. Just a thought! Cheers, Tom ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Also spracht Michele Renda (Wed, 21 May 2008 22:51:47 +0200): A lot of people that are afraid that Nokia, as owner of Trolltech, can be against Openmoko freedom, but I think you are not stupid and you know what are you doing. Nokia makes money out of handsets, not software. Who knows? They may be watching OM very closely, hoping it will be the thing that finally allows them to use a more open platform, networks be damned ;-)n best, Lalo Martins -- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable. - http://lalomartins.info/ GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Yes, it is possible. But often Hardware producer are linked to carriers. I remember how phone producer try to disable VoIp function from their devices. And this is not nice. I don't know how Nokia will like an open phone. But we can not to know! Lalo Martins wrote: Nokia makes money out of handsets, not software. Who knows? They may be watching OM very closely, hoping it will be the thing that finally allows them to use a more open platform, networks be damned ;-)n best, Lalo Martins ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Lorn Potter wrote: On Thursday 22 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had some further discussions with headquarters, and have edited my blog to try to explain the new software a little better. The important facts are that the new software: * Switches the Window Manager from Matchbox to Enlightenment (E17) * Ported Qtopia to Xorg, so it is possible to run Qtopia, GTK, ELF, and Python applications all at the same time Actually, Trolltech had done most of the 'porting' to X11 work already. Hi Lorn, Thanks for the clarification upon my clarification. I will edit my blog to correctly credit this. Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Tom Cooksey wrote: On Wednesday 21 May 2008 21:45:37 Michael Shiloh wrote: * Ported Qtopia to Xorg, so it is possible to run Qtopia, GTK, ELF, and Python applications all at the same time Hmmm... Just wondering if anyone has seen this: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/05/13/introducing-qgtkstyle/ Yes, I've seen and loved this, thinking the same you've proposed btw in this case maybe it won't work as expected since I don't know really how qtopia apps are themed: are they using simply Qt themes? If they do, maybe, it will be possible using them with the old gtk Om theme! Anyway I don't know if the qgtkskyle wrapper has some performance issues on small devices like Freerunner... -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
Special Agent Michael Shiloh reported at 12:45 05/21/08: I have had some further discussions with headquarters, and have edited my blog to try to explain the new software a little better. The important facts are that the new software: * Ported Qtopia to Xorg, so it is possible to run Qtopia, GTK, ELF, and Python applications all at the same time * Replaced the GTK-based basic phone suite (dialer, contacts, SMS) with ones based on Qtopia Someone might want to edit or remove: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Why_Not_QT Matthew ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK
On Wed, 21 May 2008 22:51:47 +0200 Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hi Michael, I think you and your team are doing a courageous but good choose. I ask only that if in the future this choose will limit Openmoko openess, you will protect us! A lot of people that are afraid that Nokia, as owner of Trolltech, can be against Openmoko freedom, but I think you are not stupid and you know what are you doing. at WORST nokia can close off FUTURE qt/qtopia/qpe releases or make it a license we cannot stomach - we can still ship what they have today as it is available as GPL. if that were to ever happen we'd ship what they have before a license change or closing-off of the code and not upgrade. in the longer-term of course that software is dead weight, but it'd do for now until it gets replaced. i don't see a lot fear unless we are banking the WHOLE platform on it. as it stands we are delivering qt and qtopia/qpe as part of a set of applications. the platform is heterogeneous and has multiple toolkits available for use and developers may choose whichever suits them best. we dont limit you to the one choice that we made (beyond using x11 - but even then you are free to modify the core os, remove x11 and do your own entire ui yourself... if you want). Good luck! Michael Shiloh wrote: I have had some further discussions with headquarters, and have edited my blog to try to explain the new software a little better. The important facts are that the new software: * Switches the Window Manager from Matchbox to Enlightenment (E17) * Ported Qtopia to Xorg, so it is possible to run Qtopia, GTK, ELF, and Python applications all at the same time * Replaced the GTK-based basic phone suite (dialer, contacts, SMS) with ones based on Qtopia I hope this better explains the situation. Regards, Michael (Full posting at http://gettingstartedopenmoko.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/openmoko-software-update/) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
