Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

Hi,

it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that people would
prefer to use
on their future OpenMoko device.

A not so scientific survey can be found at:
http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html

   Best regards
 Anton Persson
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Survey about the Touchscreen

[Ken Young]

Denis Galvo wrote:

> Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget

I could not possibly disagree more strongly.

Ken Young



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Survey about the Touchscreen

[Ken Young]

Denis Galvao wrote:
>>On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote:
>>> Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget
>>
>> I could not possibly disagree more strongly.
>
>So, give me a reason where you will need that.

As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is
relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to
the Openmoko phones.   Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven
forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign
to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone,
especially when a soft keyboard is needed.   So reducing the
resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage.
In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on
a machine you intend to run a web browser on.   Right now,
when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses
them is the display.   It would be a shame if OM dropped the
one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what
is found on other smartphones.

Ken Young


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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

Naturally the iPhone UI is exciting... But I think that the UI possibilities
is an important
reason to choose the one over the other. Like; resistive displays allow you
to use
a stylus, which might be good when you have a small display but high
resolution. On the
other hand, a capacitive display can be made harder and are therefore not so
easily broken,
the capacitive display also enables you to use your fingers in a more
natural way, not
just one finger, but many... This means better and more precise interaction
with your device.

Maybe we need a wiki-page where people can add the pro's and con's of the
different options?

Best regards
  Anton Persson

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Vikas Saurabh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone
> might get excited with iPhone's UI.
>
> What we would have to remember:
> * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all
> the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun
> of high reso is gone
> * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but
> is often manageable with fingers as well
>
> --Vikas
>
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that people
> would
> > prefer to use
> > on their future OpenMoko device.
> >
> > A not so scientific survey can be found at:
> > http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html
> >
> >Best regards
> >  Anton Persson
> >
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Tilman Baumann]

Vikas Saurabh wrote:
> I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone
> might get excited with iPhone's UI.
> 
> What we would have to remember:
> * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all
> the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun
> of high reso is gone
> * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but
> is often manageable with fingers as well
>
Agree.
Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res 
screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad.

I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same 
quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is 
pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes 
pretty much failed)



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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Vikas Saurabh]

I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone
might get excited with iPhone's UI.

What we would have to remember:
* capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all
the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun
of high reso is gone
* otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but
is often manageable with fingers as well

--Vikas

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that people would
> prefer to use
> on their future OpenMoko device.
>
> A not so scientific survey can be found at:
> http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html
>
>Best regards
>  Anton Persson
>
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>

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

Then a capacitive screen would do wonders for motivating the development
of proper finger-input on the keypad... ;-D

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Tilman Baumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Vikas Saurabh wrote:
> > I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone
> > might get excited with iPhone's UI.
> >
> > What we would have to remember:
> > * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all
> > the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun
> > of high reso is gone
> > * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but
> > is often manageable with fingers as well
> >
> Agree.
> Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res
> screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad.
>
> I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same
> quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is
> pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes
> pretty much failed)
>
>
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Michele Renda]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

> for the same screen as currently used or at least the same
> quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is 
> pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes 
> pretty much failed)


Same for me:

1. Bigger screen (With this resolution we can permit)
2. Same resolution ( I like it a lot :)
3. Current touch technology


Regards
Michele Renda

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Lech Karol Pawłaszek]

Michele Renda wrote:
[...]
> Same for me:
> 
> 1. Bigger screen (With this resolution we can permit)
> 2. Same resolution ( I like it a lot :)
> 3. Current touch technology

And borderless screen. I like everything I have except that there are
sections unavailable on the screen because there is this plastic border.

I suppose it would be possible to make "borderless case" so my point be
invalid... however I haven't seen any other case except the official one.

Kind regards,

-- 
Lech Karol Pawłaszek 
"You will never see me fall from grace" [KoRn]

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Al Iasid]

IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not nearly as
convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi res
or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is
finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most "intimate" personal device.
There should be no intermediary in the user interface.

Aliasid

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Lech Karol Pawłaszek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Michele Renda wrote:
> [...]
> > Same for me:
> >
> > 1. Bigger screen (With this resolution we can permit)
> > 2. Same resolution ( I like it a lot :)
> > 3. Current touch technology
>
> And borderless screen. I like everything I have except that there are
> sections unavailable on the screen because there is this plastic border.
>
> I suppose it would be possible to make "borderless case" so my point be
> invalid... however I haven't seen any other case except the official one.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> --
> Lech Karol Pawłaszek 
> "You will never see me fall from grace" [KoRn]
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Marcel]

Am Friday 21 November 2008 14:58:47 schrieb Lech Karol Pawłaszek:
> And borderless screen. I like everything I have except that there are
> sections unavailable on the screen because there is this plastic border.
>
> I suppose it would be possible to make "borderless case" so my point be
> invalid... however I haven't seen any other case except the official one.

That would be awsum, sadly I neither have the skills to do so nor the 
machines. :(

-Marcel

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

If you make a borderless case the risk is bigger for scratches and other
damaging
things to happen to the display... In that case a hard surface would be
preferable.

 Best regards,
  Anton

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Lech Karol Pawłaszek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Michele Renda wrote:
> [...]
> > Same for me:
> >
> > 1. Bigger screen (With this resolution we can permit)
> > 2. Same resolution ( I like it a lot :)
> > 3. Current touch technology
>
> And borderless screen. I like everything I have except that there are
> sections unavailable on the screen because there is this plastic border.
>
> I suppose it would be possible to make "borderless case" so my point be
> invalid... however I haven't seen any other case except the official one.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> --
> Lech Karol Pawłaszek 
> "You will never see me fall from grace" [KoRn]
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[DJDAS]

Al Iasid ha scritto:
> IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not 
> nearly as convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I 
> don't min hi res or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as 
> the interface is finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most 
> "intimate" personal device. There should be no intermediary in the 
> user interface.
>
> Aliasid
+++
definitely agree :)


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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Yorick Moko]

nothing a good screenprotector can't prevent

2008/11/21 Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> If you make a borderless case the risk is bigger for scratches and other
> damaging
> things to happen to the display... In that case a hard surface would be
> preferable.
>
>  Best regards,
>   Anton
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Lally Singh]

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Yorick Moko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> nothing a good screenprotector can't prevent
>
> 2008/11/21 Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> If you make a borderless case the risk is bigger for scratches and other
>> damaging
>> things to happen to the display... In that case a hard surface would be
>> preferable.

You can have a stylus for the capacitive screens:
http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php

Donno if you can get it finer than that.

Personally, the stylus is a pain 90% of the time.  The last bit it's
very useful, but IMHO not worth the pain the rest of the time.

A 480x640 screen can show a lot of information, even if it's navigated
by finger-only.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Denis Galvão]

My two reais.

My choince is a capacitive screen, and we must consider the user  
finger interaction when developing applications.

Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget, what we  
NEED is an easy way to handle the phone, carry a stylus should not be  
a good idea, is a step backwards.

The final product is a button less phone. You only need the screen for  
all operations. Dot period.

--
Denis
Brazil

On 21/11/2008, at 10:55, Anton Persson wrote:

> Hi,
>
> it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that  
> people would prefer to use
> on their future OpenMoko device.
>
> A not so scientific survey can be found at:
> http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html
>
>Best regards
>  Anton Persson
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Gothnet]

Larger screen.

More real estate for a keyboard, basically, the current ones are just on the
boundary of unusable with a finger and anything bigger would take up too
much space; you need a comfortable amount of space for the application and
the on screen input.
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/Survey-about-the-Touchscreen-tp1561613p1561964.html
Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

I agree that you don't need a stylus for all operations, and I don't
usually need one with the current touch screen, so I don't see why opt
for a less capable one (like the iPhone one).

Rui

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 12:29:35PM -0200, Denis Galvão wrote:
> My two reais.
> 
> My choince is a capacitive screen, and we must consider the user  
> finger interaction when developing applications.
> 
> Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget, what we  
> NEED is an easy way to handle the phone, carry a stylus should not be  
> a good idea, is a step backwards.
> 
> The final product is a button less phone. You only need the screen for  
> all operations. Dot period.
> 
> --
> Denis
> Brazil
> 
> On 21/11/2008, at 10:55, Anton Persson wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that  
> > people would prefer to use
> > on their future OpenMoko device.
> >
> > A not so scientific survey can be found at:
> > http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html
> >
> >Best regards
> >  Anton Persson
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> 
> 
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| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with
a capacitive screen, if you really need that. What other arguments are there
for a resistive screen?

Best regards,
   Anton

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I agree that you don't need a stylus for all operations, and I don't
> usually need one with the current touch screen, so I don't see why opt
> for a less capable one (like the iPhone one).
>
> Rui
>
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 12:29:35PM -0200, Denis Galvão wrote:
> > My two reais.
> >
> > My choince is a capacitive screen, and we must consider the user
> > finger interaction when developing applications.
> >
> > Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget, what we
> > NEED is an easy way to handle the phone, carry a stylus should not be
> > a good idea, is a step backwards.
> >
> > The final product is a button less phone. You only need the screen for
> > all operations. Dot period.
> >
> > --
> > Denis
> > Brazil
> >
> > On 21/11/2008, at 10:55, Anton Persson wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that
> > > people would prefer to use
> > > on their future OpenMoko device.
> > >
> > > A not so scientific survey can be found at:
> > > http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html
> > >
> > >Best regards
> > >  Anton Persson
> > > ___
> > > Openmoko community mailing list
> > > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
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> Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174
> + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
> + Whatever you do will be insignificant,
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> + So let's do it...?
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Tilman Baumann]

Anton Persson wrote:
> Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with
> a capacitive screen, if you really need that. What other arguments are there
> for a resistive screen?

This stylus is not much smaller than a finger tip.

I will not say that capacitive is bad, but it is certainly a much bigger 
  challenge for gui development. I'm not sure we are ready for this...

And I'm not convinced that a iphone like system is the right platform 
for a really versatile smartphone.
I'm convinced that people will start to see the iphone UI as a 
limitation when the novelty factor waers off.
We should take the best from the iphone (good productive finger 
controlled apps) but we should not totally commit to this.
And I'm not sure that multi touch is really so important and the low res 
touch sensitivity of the iphone started to anoy me really fast.
Text input on a iphone is better than T9, but not really good.

We need a bigger screen that's for sure.

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Yorick Moko]

maybe it's just me,
but the pictures on http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php seem to
indicate that this is one big mother fucker of a stylus, i mean, the
diameter of the stylusis is almost as big as the surface of the tip of
you fingers you use to click... (keep in mind you use an area with a
much smaller diameter than your finger diameter when operating the TS
with your fingers)

same type of TS, AT LEAST as big, preferably bigger and no borders is
how I would like it to be

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with
> a capacitive screen, if you really need that. What other arguments are there
> for a resistive screen?
>
> Best regards,
>Anton
>

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

Novelty-factor? Have you ever used an iPhone for a longer period? I know
several
people who own one now ,  and they would _NEVER_ turn back to anything like
a
stylus controlled device, again. I really would _LOVE_ an iPhone, if it came
with
Free Software...

But the "novelty factor"-argument has been used before... Like when the
cell-phone
started to be more generally available.. "It's just a novelty for the guys
at Wall Street."..
Yeah right... How many of you have cut of the land-line and gone 100%
mobile? I have,
and there's no looking back. Sure, there was benefits like a lower price per
minute, but
that's all gone now, almost.. It's certainly not worth the difference any
more, and the cell
has so many more pro's than the landline...

It's the same with the resistive vs capacitive approach, as I see it. There
is only one
pro with the resistive one, and that's an extremely low pro.. Especially if
there is indeed
a stylus, albeit with a rather big tip. For the argument that you can use a
smaller display
if you use a stylus, yeah that's true.. But the OpenMoko looks very poor
with such a small
display and a HUGE area of NOTHING around it, which could have been used for
display
purposes instead.

   Best regards
 Anton Persson

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Tilman Baumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Anton Persson wrote:
> > Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with
> > a capacitive screen, if you really need that. What other arguments are
> there
> > for a resistive screen?
>
> This stylus is not much smaller than a finger tip.
>
> I will not say that capacitive is bad, but it is certainly a much bigger
>  challenge for gui development. I'm not sure we are ready for this...
>
> And I'm not convinced that a iphone like system is the right platform
> for a really versatile smartphone.
> I'm convinced that people will start to see the iphone UI as a
> limitation when the novelty factor waers off.
> We should take the best from the iphone (good productive finger
> controlled apps) but we should not totally commit to this.
> And I'm not sure that multi touch is really so important and the low res
> touch sensitivity of the iphone started to anoy me really fast.
> Text input on a iphone is better than T9, but not really good.
>
> We need a bigger screen that's for sure.
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

Me too, high-res is all good.. But high-res does NOT preclude the use of
a capacitive display.. So that's no argument for the classic type...

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Ken Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Denis Galvo wrote:
>
> > Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget
>
> I could not possibly disagree more strongly.
>
> Ken Young
>
>
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Damien Thébault]

2008/11/21 Al Iasid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not nearly as
> convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi res
> or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is
> finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most "intimate" personal device.
> There should be no intermediary in the user interface.

I don't really care about using my fingernails, they are always available, but
I don't like to use a stylus since I have to find it in the first place.
(maybe if the stylus was hidden in the case it would be a little better, but
this uses space and it takes more time than fingernails)

The primary isses I have with the actual touchscreen is the UI reactivity,
I don't know if it's because the touchscreen is slow or because the software is.

I agree that a borderless phone would be more practical touchscreen-wise.
If this implies using a hard screen, implying capacitive, then why not.

Regards,
-- 
Damien Thebault

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 04:51:07PM +0100, Damien Thébault wrote:
> 2008/11/21 Al Iasid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not nearly as
> > convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi res
> > or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is
> > finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most "intimate" personal device.
> > There should be no intermediary in the user interface.
> 
> I don't really care about using my fingernails, they are always available, but
> I don't like to use a stylus since I have to find it in the first place.
> (maybe if the stylus was hidden in the case it would be a little better, but
> this uses space and it takes more time than fingernails)
> 
> The primary isses I have with the actual touchscreen is the UI reactivity,
> I don't know if it's because the touchscreen is slow or because the software 
> is.
> 
> I agree that a borderless phone would be more practical touchscreen-wise.
> If this implies using a hard screen, implying capacitive, then why not.


If you try out sketch, you see that it's responsive enough and detailed
enough for making a written signature :)

-- 
Grudnuk demand sustenance!
Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

To just view the current standings in the poll:
http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpresult/509337-120694

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]>wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 04:51:07PM +0100, Damien Thébault wrote:
> > 2008/11/21 Al Iasid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not
> nearly as
> > > convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi
> res
> > > or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is
> > > finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most "intimate" personal device.
> > > There should be no intermediary in the user interface.
> >
> > I don't really care about using my fingernails, they are always
> available, but
> > I don't like to use a stylus since I have to find it in the first place.
> > (maybe if the stylus was hidden in the case it would be a little better,
> but
> > this uses space and it takes more time than fingernails)
> >
> > The primary isses I have with the actual touchscreen is the UI
> reactivity,
> > I don't know if it's because the touchscreen is slow or because the
> software is.
> >
> > I agree that a borderless phone would be more practical touchscreen-wise.
> > If this implies using a hard screen, implying capacitive, then why not.
>
>
> If you try out sketch, you see that it's responsive enough and detailed
> enough for making a written signature :)
>
> --
> Grudnuk demand sustenance!
> Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174
> + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
> + Whatever you do will be insignificant,
> | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
> + So let's do it...?
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Tilman Baumann]

I just want to point out that I will not vote because the vote is bullshit.

The type of the screen is not the only thing. Size and resolution 
matters too.

And even more important. Price and availability.

What you want is totally unimportant. The question is which compromises 
are you ready to make?
This is nothing that can be figured out by some stupid two options poll. 
What goes is eventually a question that can only be answered by looking 
at sold units in retrospect.
What you all want is unimportant, because you can not honestly say that 
it will bias your buying decision in a way you would admit now.

I would like openmoko to do bold steps.
But they should also be careful.


Tilman Baumann wrote:
> Vikas Saurabh wrote:
>> I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone
>> might get excited with iPhone's UI.
>>
>> What we would have to remember:
>> * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all
>> the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun
>> of high reso is gone
>> * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but
>> is often manageable with fingers as well
>>
> Agree.
> Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res 
> screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad.
> 
> I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same 
> quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is 
> pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes 
> pretty much failed)
> 
> 
> 


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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

I don't care about the poll. I care about a rich user experience, and
what the iPhone has of best is not due to the touchscreen (with the
exception of physical area and no huge border)

:)


On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 05:13:50PM +0100, Anton Persson wrote:
> To just view the current standings in the poll:
> http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpresult/509337-120694
> 
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]>wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 04:51:07PM +0100, Damien Thébault wrote:
> > > 2008/11/21 Al Iasid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > IMHO having to dig out a stylus (pen) or use my fingernail is not
> > nearly as
> > > > convenient or enjoyable as a finger-friendly interface. I don't min hi
> > res
> > > > or low res - or big or small screen size - as long as the interface is
> > > > finger-friendly. The cell phone is our most "intimate" personal device.
> > > > There should be no intermediary in the user interface.
> > >
> > > I don't really care about using my fingernails, they are always
> > available, but
> > > I don't like to use a stylus since I have to find it in the first place.
> > > (maybe if the stylus was hidden in the case it would be a little better,
> > but
> > > this uses space and it takes more time than fingernails)
> > >
> > > The primary isses I have with the actual touchscreen is the UI
> > reactivity,
> > > I don't know if it's because the touchscreen is slow or because the
> > software is.
> > >
> > > I agree that a borderless phone would be more practical touchscreen-wise.
> > > If this implies using a hard screen, implying capacitive, then why not.
> >
> >
> > If you try out sketch, you see that it's responsive enough and detailed
> > enough for making a written signature :)


-- 

Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Clemens Kirchgatterer]

"Anton Persson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Novelty-factor? Have you ever used an iPhone for a longer period? I
> know several
> people who own one now ,  and they would _NEVER_ turn back to
> anything like a
> stylus controlled device, again. I really would _LOVE_ an iPhone, if
> it came with
> Free Software...

my experience is different. i didn't try iPhone myself, though. (i
refuse to use anything from a company like apple,) but i know two people
with iPhones and both would not buy one again. biggest problem for them
is that it is a bad phone (bad audio quality) and they lose calls
sometimes because it just does not ring. (never heard of any phone doing
that! ;-) ) second problem is the low resolution. dunno about the
touch, though.

just my 2 cents ...
clemens

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Denis Galvão]

On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote:
>> Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget
>
> I could not possibly disagree more strongly.

So, give me a reason where you will need that.

Denis.

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Stefan Monnier]

> And I'm not sure that multi touch is really so important and the low res 

I do not know if it's important, but being restricted to events of the
form mouse-1-down, mouse-1-up, and mouse-move is problematic in
my experience.

So if we can't have multi-touch sensitivity, we need some other source
of input.  It could be buttons on the sides (e.g. I could imagine
a phone where you use one hand for the touchscreen while the other hand
holds the phone and can squeeze it to generate a "modifier" kind of
event).  For usability, I think it's important that this other source of
input be usable at the same time as the touchscreen is used to move the
cursor (so you can get similar effects as the 2-finger scroll, for
exemples, or the mouse-3 context menus) so it probably would have to be
activated by the other hand.


Stefan


PS: I'm not even considering single-handed use.


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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Stefan Monnier]

> Me too, high-res is all good.. But high-res does NOT preclude the use of

Actually, the high-res is one of the highlights of the FR for me.  So,
while I don't need 280dpi, I wouldn't settle for less than 200dpi for
a gadget I hold so close to my eyes.


Stefan


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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 01:16:36PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> I do not know if it's important, but being restricted to events of the
> form mouse-1-down, mouse-1-up, and mouse-move is problematic in
> my experience.

Apple has handled that quite nicely for a long time with one button
mice. But I do agree a modifier button would be desireable (like the
option key is -- or was a long time ago -- on the Macintosh).

Rui

-- 
Grudnuk demand sustenance!
Today is Setting Orange, the 33rd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Lech Karol Pawłaszek]

Clemens Kirchgatterer wrote:
[...]
> my experience is different. i didn't try iPhone myself, though. (i
> refuse to use anything from a company like apple,) but i know two people

Well. I have used iPhone for a while. It is indeed quite nice. Easy to
learn and fun to use.

> with iPhones and both would not buy one again. biggest problem for them
> is that it is a bad phone (bad audio quality) and they lose calls
> sometimes because it just does not ring. (never heard of any phone doing
> that! ;-) ) second problem is the low resolution. dunno about the
> touch, though.

"it just does not ring". Don't show Freerunner to your friends (yet)! ;-)

I liked iPhone's UI. The first perceptible difference from Freerunner is
that Apple's product works. Freerunner still lacks major functionality
(like ringing and so). OTOH I believe that having finger controllable
applications (iPhone style) on stylus capable touchscreen is a way to
go. Freerunner is a small computer - sometimes I need precise pointer.

Kind regards,

-- 
Lech Karol Pawłaszek 
"You will never see me fall from grace" [KoRn]

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

OK, let's compare the number of sold units... How many iPhone 2G and 3G have
been sold? I figure it's quite a lot...

Of course you have to consider what compromises you have to make. What have
apple surrendered when they selected the capacitive screen instead of the
resistive? What have they gained? ... That's the things that we have
discussed... Does a capacitive display restrict the resolution? No.

One thing I would like to have answered is, how good can you make
multi-touch support with a resistive display?

Best regards
   Anton

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Tilman Baumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I just want to point out that I will not vote because the vote is bullshit.
>
> The type of the screen is not the only thing. Size and resolution
> matters too.
>
> And even more important. Price and availability.
>
> What you want is totally unimportant. The question is which compromises
> are you ready to make?
> This is nothing that can be figured out by some stupid two options poll.
> What goes is eventually a question that can only be answered by looking
> at sold units in retrospect.
> What you all want is unimportant, because you can not honestly say that
> it will bias your buying decision in a way you would admit now.
>
> I would like openmoko to do bold steps.
> But they should also be careful.
>
>
> Tilman Baumann wrote:
> > Vikas Saurabh wrote:
> >> I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone
> >> might get excited with iPhone's UI.
> >>
> >> What we would have to remember:
> >> * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all
> >> the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun
> >> of high reso is gone
> >> * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but
> >> is often manageable with fingers as well
> >>
> > Agree.
> > Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res
> > screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad.
> >
> > I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same
> > quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is
> > pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes
> > pretty much failed)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus.
> Please print this mail only on recycled paper.
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Thorben Krueger]

+1 indeed, the screen is about the only thing that truly blows
people's minds away atm...

2008/11/21 Ken Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Denis Galvao wrote:
>>>On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote:
 Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget
>>>
>>> I could not possibly disagree more strongly.
>>
>>So, give me a reason where you will need that.
>
> As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is
> relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to
> the Openmoko phones.   Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven
> forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign
> to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone,
> especially when a soft keyboard is needed.   So reducing the
> resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage.
> In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on
> a machine you intend to run a web browser on.   Right now,
> when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses
> them is the display.   It would be a shame if OM dropped the
> one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what
> is found on other smartphones.
>
> Ken Young
>
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

You mean, the only thing that truly blows them away is the resolution
of the screen... Which you can have with any type of modern LCD panel,
can you not?

 /Anton

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Thorben Krueger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> +1 indeed, the screen is about the only thing that truly blows
> people's minds away atm...
>
> 2008/11/21 Ken Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Denis Galvao wrote:
> >>>On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote:
>  Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget
> >>>
> >>> I could not possibly disagree more strongly.
> >>
> >>So, give me a reason where you will need that.
> >
> > As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is
> > relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to
> > the Openmoko phones.   Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven
> > forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign
> > to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone,
> > especially when a soft keyboard is needed.   So reducing the
> > resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage.
> > In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on
> > a machine you intend to run a web browser on.   Right now,
> > when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses
> > them is the display.   It would be a shame if OM dropped the
> > one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what
> > is found on other smartphones.
> >
> > Ken Young
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Thorben Krueger]

sorry for being imprecise. I was referring to the amazing resolution
considering the size of the display. The freerunner got 300 dpi IIRC.
For comparison, the iphone only seems to have 160.

I usually demo the crispness (if you will) of my neo's screen using
top on the terminal at the smallest readable fontsize to great effect
:)

2008/11/21 Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> You mean, the only thing that truly blows them away is the resolution
> of the screen... Which you can have with any type of modern LCD panel,
> can you not?
>
>  /Anton
>
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Thorben Krueger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> +1 indeed, the screen is about the only thing that truly blows
>> people's minds away atm...
>>
>> 2008/11/21 Ken Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> > Denis Galvao wrote:
>> >>>On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote:
>>  Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget
>> >>>
>> >>> I could not possibly disagree more strongly.
>> >>
>> >>So, give me a reason where you will need that.
>> >
>> > As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is
>> > relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to
>> > the Openmoko phones.   Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven
>> > forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign
>> > to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone,
>> > especially when a soft keyboard is needed.   So reducing the
>> > resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage.
>> > In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on
>> > a machine you intend to run a web browser on.   Right now,
>> > when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses
>> > them is the display.   It would be a shame if OM dropped the
>> > one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what
>> > is found on other smartphones.
>> >
>> > Ken Young
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > community@lists.openmoko.org
>> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>> >
>>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Leonti Bielski]

Big resolution means better image quality.
We can run qvga apps on our vga screen, don't we? But how can we run
vga apps on qvga screen?
VGA screen is a step forward, QVGA is a step backward. For me it's clear.

Leonti

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:08 AM, Thorben Krueger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> sorry for being imprecise. I was referring to the amazing resolution
> considering the size of the display. The freerunner got 300 dpi IIRC.
> For comparison, the iphone only seems to have 160.
>
> I usually demo the crispness (if you will) of my neo's screen using
> top on the terminal at the smallest readable fontsize to great effect
> :)
>
> 2008/11/21 Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> You mean, the only thing that truly blows them away is the resolution
>> of the screen... Which you can have with any type of modern LCD panel,
>> can you not?
>>
>>  /Anton
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Thorben Krueger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> +1 indeed, the screen is about the only thing that truly blows
>>> people's minds away atm...
>>>
>>> 2008/11/21 Ken Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>> > Denis Galvao wrote:
>>> >>>On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote:
>>>  Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I could not possibly disagree more strongly.
>>> >>
>>> >>So, give me a reason where you will need that.
>>> >
>>> > As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is
>>> > relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to
>>> > the Openmoko phones.   Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven
>>> > forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign
>>> > to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone,
>>> > especially when a soft keyboard is needed.   So reducing the
>>> > resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage.
>>> > In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on
>>> > a machine you intend to run a web browser on.   Right now,
>>> > when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses
>>> > them is the display.   It would be a shame if OM dropped the
>>> > one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what
>>> > is found on other smartphones.
>>> >
>>> > Ken Young
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > Openmoko community mailing list
>>> > community@lists.openmoko.org
>>> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>> >
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Leonti Bielski]

Why do we need capacitive display?
We still are not going to solve hanging up during the call - because
capacitive screen does it too - the only way to avoid that is by doing
it in software.
Someone said - it will be a good motivation to make programs more
finger-friendly. What I like about Freerunner is that I can find some
program, compile it and use it straight on Freerunner. With the
capacitive screen we can forget about most gtk, fltk apps, just
because they need stylus to be used. Do we really want to have a
system that is based on linux, but looks like every other phone
platform?
Now imagine we have calc sheet application on the phone. Whis the
resolution of FR we can see really a lot, and what is important we can
manipulate cells in it. Can you do it with your finger? (with the
capacitive touchscreen you can't even use your fingernail).
What I mean is that  the ability to use other objects to manipulate
the screen is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

Leonti

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Simon Matthews]

On Fri, 2008-11-21 at 13:16 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> So if we can't have multi-touch sensitivity, we need some other source
> of input.  It could be buttons on the sides (e.g. I could imagine
> a phone where you use one hand for the touchscreen while the other hand
> holds the phone and can squeeze it to generate a "modifier" kind of
> event).  For usability, I think it's important that this other source of
> input be usable at the same time as the touchscreen is used to move the
> cursor (so you can get similar effects as the 2-finger scroll, for
> exemples, or the mouse-3 context menus) so it probably would have to be
> activated by the other hand.

I agree, a scroll wheel and an extra button on the side of the
Freerunner, something like the old Sony Clie PDAs would be great, or
maybe a tiny trackball/scrollball like the one on the Apple mouse would
be useful.

I would love the capacitive multitouch screen but not at the expense of
input resolution.

Simon


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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

Hi,

I think this is the best argument for the need of a precision stylus yet.

However, as I see it, if you make this argument it means that you want
a phone that works just like your desktop computer, but which you can
carry along easily.. Maybe an EeePC is better suited?

The current OpenMoko compromise is not suitable for running a spreadsheet
application or a word processor. If you want those applications then you
need to have some sort of keyboard. When the Ilume keyboard is active
you only have perhaps 60% left of the screen. That means your application
only have _half_ a VGA display. This practically eliminates the pro that
people
here have been bringing up, the full VGA display. Then add the fact that
using the Ilume keyboard with a spreadsheet is, well, daunting. I can't
imagine the pain
I would feel if I had to go through that ordeal.

So yes, the current situation makes it easy to _run_ ye old' X applications
we all love on the desktop... But _using_ them in this setup.. I don't think
so.

If you think I'm wrong, could you please tell me in which situations you
really
could use application X or Y on your OpenMoko? And I mean in a situation
where you would not have easy access to your EeePC in your back-pack.

On the other hand, if you add a multi touch capable LCD panel, then you
would
enable software developers like myself to develop a whole range of new
applications that are _not_ possible on a desktop or on the current
OpenMoko...
Applications that you will never see on the current OpenMoko.

(I'm still not ruling out the possibility of a multi touch enabled resistive
screen,
but I never heard of such a thing...)

Best regards
   Anton Persson

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Leonti Bielski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Why do we need capacitive display?
> We still are not going to solve hanging up during the call - because
> capacitive screen does it too - the only way to avoid that is by doing
> it in software.
> Someone said - it will be a good motivation to make programs more
> finger-friendly. What I like about Freerunner is that I can find some
> program, compile it and use it straight on Freerunner. With the
> capacitive screen we can forget about most gtk, fltk apps, just
> because they need stylus to be used. Do we really want to have a
> system that is based on linux, but looks like every other phone
> platform?
> Now imagine we have calc sheet application on the phone. Whis the
> resolution of FR we can see really a lot, and what is important we can
> manipulate cells in it. Can you do it with your finger? (with the
> capacitive touchscreen you can't even use your fingernail).
> What I mean is that  the ability to use other objects to manipulate
> the screen is an advantage, not a disadvantage.
>
> Leonti
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

I agree, VGA is a step forward.

But I don't think _anyone_ on this list would say that lower resolution is
better.

I wonder, why are people bringing up the resolution as a discussion topic
when everyone agrees on it?

Best regards
   Anton

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Leonti Bielski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Big resolution means better image quality.
> We can run qvga apps on our vga screen, don't we? But how can we run
> vga apps on qvga screen?
> VGA screen is a step forward, QVGA is a step backward. For me it's clear.
>
> Leonti
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:08 AM, Thorben Krueger
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > sorry for being imprecise. I was referring to the amazing resolution
> > considering the size of the display. The freerunner got 300 dpi IIRC.
> > For comparison, the iphone only seems to have 160.
> >
> > I usually demo the crispness (if you will) of my neo's screen using
> > top on the terminal at the smallest readable fontsize to great effect
> > :)
> >
> > 2008/11/21 Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> You mean, the only thing that truly blows them away is the resolution
> >> of the screen... Which you can have with any type of modern LCD panel,
> >> can you not?
> >>
> >>  /Anton
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Thorben Krueger <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> +1 indeed, the screen is about the only thing that truly blows
> >>> people's minds away atm...
> >>>
> >>> 2008/11/21 Ken Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >>> > Denis Galvao wrote:
> >>> >>>On 21/11/2008, at 13:20, Ken Young wrote:
> >>>  Really, we don't need a hi res screen on a day by day gadget
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I could not possibly disagree more strongly.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>So, give me a reason where you will need that.
> >>> >
> >>> > As long as we have at least a VGA resolution screen, it is
> >>> > relatively easy for us to port linux desktop applications to
> >>> > the Openmoko phones.   Once we drop down to HVGA, or (heaven
> >>> > forbid!) QVGA, there will need to be extensive UI redesign
> >>> > to get most apps. from the desktop world to run on an OM phone,
> >>> > especially when a soft keyboard is needed.   So reducing the
> >>> > resolution will greatly reduce the code base we can leverage.
> >>> > In addition, I don't think you can ever had too many pixels on
> >>> > a machine you intend to run a web browser on.   Right now,
> >>> > when I show someone my Freerunner, the only thing that impresses
> >>> > them is the display.   It would be a shame if OM dropped the
> >>> > one part of its hardware that is actually superior to what
> >>> > is found on other smartphones.
> >>> >
> >>> > Ken Young
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > ___
> >>> > Openmoko community mailing list
> >>> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> >>> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> ___
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> >>> community@lists.openmoko.org
> >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> community@lists.openmoko.org
> >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Stroller]

On 21 Nov 2008, at 16:41, Tilman Baumann wrote:
>
> I just want to point out that I will not vote because the vote is  
> bullshit.

+1

I when I finished reading this list yesterday it had only 3 replies,  
and thought about replying.

Unless your email address ends in @openmoko.com, please keep "surveys"  
and "votes" off this list!

They seem to generate a very high number of posts lacking in  
thoughtfulness - as opposed to, say, those a thread titled "capacitive  
screens vs touchscreens" might - and it is naive to consider what kind  
of hardware an individual user would prefer in isolation of all the  
other compromises that would be required to accommodate the decision.

> And even more important. Price and availability.
>
> What you want is totally unimportant. The question is which  
> compromises
> are you ready to make?
> This is nothing that can be figured out by some stupid two options  
> poll.
> ...
>
> I would like openmoko to do bold steps.
> But they should also be careful.

Introduction of a multi-touch screen would only fragment the userbase.  
10,000 Freerunner owners would be bitching that they can't run  
$new.app because it requires the new screen type; owners of the new  
device would be bitching that existing apps don't use the cool new  
interface.

Hardware decisions are best made by those who actually have an insight  
into ALL the variables of the planned hardware. The whims of you & I  
are simply irrelevant if Openmoko / FIC are unable to purchase multi- 
touch screens. In case you're not aware, hardware decisions have  
already been constrained by an unavailability of parts in such small  
quantities as those used in Openmoko devices - you might have to buy  
100,000 or 1,000,000 units before the vendor will talk to you.

Besides that, GTA03 is no longer subject to change - isn't it stupid  
to be making plans (especially when you're not in a position to do so)  
for GTA04 or 05, when the hardware available by that time might be  
quite different from what is on the market now?

Thanks for cluttering up my inbox with this irrelevancy.

Stroller.

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Stroller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> > I would like openmoko to do bold steps.
> > But they should also be careful.
>
> Introduction of a multi-touch screen would only fragment the userbase.
> 10,000 Freerunner owners would be bitching that they can't run
> $new.app because it requires the new screen type; owners of the new
> device would be bitching that existing apps don't use the cool new

interface.
>

Well, that might be true.. But the case might also be that the userbase
will shrink if nothing is done. That depends on what people want from
their hardware. The lack of a new type of user interface which some of
us believe is far superior on a hand held device will at least make me
think twice before buying a new OpenMoko.. I bought the GTA02 since
I found what OpenMoko was doing a great thing and I wanted to support
that good effort.. But if the hardware is always a couple or more
generations behind the leading pack then it's not much use, then I'm just
trying to help
a hopeless cause. The phone is a hardware disabled toy.

I certainly don't speak for everyone, since there are plenty of voices for
the
current solution as seen in this thread, but I think the user base will
shrink
steadily while the use of multi touch gets more and more users on the big
platforms. It's the future as I see it, and either we place us in the
future, or
we place us in the past... With a platform as the OpenMoko we have that
choice.


> Hardware decisions are best made by those who actually have an insight
> into ALL the variables of the planned hardware. The whims of you & I
> are simply irrelevant if Openmoko / FIC are unable to purchase multi-
> touch screens. In case you're not aware, hardware decisions have
> already been constrained by an unavailability of parts in such small
> quantities as those used in Openmoko devices - you might have to buy
> 100,000 or 1,000,000 units before the vendor will talk to you.
>

Yes, that's makes it a catch 22, because if you don't put together a
hardware solution that is good enough, then the amount of people
buying it will be small... And if you can't sell enough then you can't
buy the good parts.. If that makes you aim low, then why bother at
all?


>
> Besides that, GTA03 is no longer subject to change - isn't it stupid
> to be making plans (especially when you're not in a position to do so)
> for GTA04 or 05, when the hardware available by that time might be
> quite different from what is on the market now?
>
>
I know that the GTA03 is probably all decided hardware wise... But I think
this might be a good discussion anyway. And the market is big, apple has
shown
that... And note that Apple doesn't have it's reputation since they make
poor
hardware decisions, but the opposite. There's still a future out there
tomorrow
and if we want to we can be part of it too.

 Best regards
   Anton
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[robert lazarski]

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And note that Apple doesn't have it's reputation since they make
> poor
> hardware decisions, but the opposite.

Converesely, one could argue that apple has very mediocre hardware and
its strength is both UI and things just work. Not that use apple for
anything. More clutter ;-( .

- R

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

He, actually you're right.. I withdraw that remark.. It's OK hardware,
but with an excellent aesthetic design, and an innovative UI. A UI that
would
not have been possible if the multi-touch hardware was not in place.

/Anton

On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, robert lazarski
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > And note that Apple doesn't have it's reputation since they make
> > poor
> > hardware decisions, but the opposite.
>
> Converesely, one could argue that apple has very mediocre hardware and
> its strength is both UI and things just work. Not that use apple for
> anything. More clutter ;-( .
>
> - R
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Al Johnson]

On Saturday 22 November 2008, Anton Persson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think this is the best argument for the need of a precision stylus yet.
>
> However, as I see it, if you make this argument it means that you want
> a phone that works just like your desktop computer, but which you can
> carry along easily.. Maybe an EeePC is better suited?

I have an Aspire One, but it's too big to carry all the time. I'm looking for 
something to replace my old and dying Psion 5. I had high hopes when EPOC32 
became Symbian that a suitable smartphone would appear, but one of the first 
things they did was to remove the office type apps.

> The current OpenMoko compromise is not suitable for running a spreadsheet
> application or a word processor.

For you maybe, but Abiword and Gnumeric are working fine for me.

> If you want those applications then you 
> need to have some sort of keyboard. When the Ilume keyboard is active
> you only have perhaps 60% left of the screen. That means your application
> only have _half_ a VGA display. This practically eliminates the pro that
> people here have been bringing up, the full VGA display.

The Psion's only half-VGA and it works fine there. The Psion does make better 
use of the screen space, but that's an application issue.

> Then add the fact that 
> using the Ilume keyboard with a spreadsheet is, well, daunting. I can't
> imagine the pain I would feel if I had to go through that ordeal.

For you maybe, but it's fine for me in light use. If I need to do anything 
heavier there's always the Bluetooth keyboard.

> So yes, the current situation makes it easy to _run_ ye old' X applications
> we all love on the desktop... But _using_ them in this setup.. I don't
> think so.
>
> If you think I'm wrong, could you please tell me in which situations you
> really
> could use application X or Y on your OpenMoko? And I mean in a situation
> where you would not have easy access to your EeePC in your back-pack.

Exactly the same situations where I use them on the Psion, probably more 
because I would carry it in situations where even the Psion is too big. When 
I first got the Psion I found myself using it in many more situations than I 
had expected, simply because it was there and it worked.

> On the other hand, if you add a multi touch capable LCD panel, then you
> would
> enable software developers like myself to develop a whole range of new
> applications that are _not_ possible on a desktop or on the current
> OpenMoko...
> Applications that you will never see on the current OpenMoko.
>
> (I'm still not ruling out the possibility of a multi touch enabled
> resistive screen,
> but I never heard of such a thing...)

I've never seen a commercial one, but I don't think it presents too many 
technical hurdles. unfortunately Openmoko aren't big enough to push a 
manufacturer to make such a thing, unlike Apple.

> Best regards
>Anton Persson
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Leonti Bielski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Why do we need capacitive display?
> > We still are not going to solve hanging up during the call - because
> > capacitive screen does it too - the only way to avoid that is by doing
> > it in software.
> > Someone said - it will be a good motivation to make programs more
> > finger-friendly. What I like about Freerunner is that I can find some
> > program, compile it and use it straight on Freerunner. With the
> > capacitive screen we can forget about most gtk, fltk apps, just
> > because they need stylus to be used. Do we really want to have a
> > system that is based on linux, but looks like every other phone
> > platform?
> > Now imagine we have calc sheet application on the phone. Whis the
> > resolution of FR we can see really a lot, and what is important we can
> > manipulate cells in it. Can you do it with your finger? (with the
> > capacitive touchscreen you can't even use your fingernail).
> > What I mean is that  the ability to use other objects to manipulate
> > the screen is an advantage, not a disadvantage.
> >
> > Leonti
> >
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

>
>
> > The current OpenMoko compromise is not suitable for running a spreadsheet
> > application or a word processor.
>
> For you maybe, but Abiword and Gnumeric are working fine for me.
>

True, that's my own opinion. I think the display is too small and the input
method
is too hard. But I must confess; I generally don't use anything other than
Emacs
and Eclipse for anything close to word processing and one of the things with
emacs is that you really need a keyboard with it.. :-P


>
> > If you want those applications then you
> > need to have some sort of keyboard. When the Ilume keyboard is active
> > you only have perhaps 60% left of the screen. That means your application
> > only have _half_ a VGA display. This practically eliminates the pro that
> > people here have been bringing up, the full VGA display.
>
> The Psion's only half-VGA and it works fine there. The Psion does make
> better
> use of the screen space, but that's an application issue.
>

Which means that you would still be happy if you had a slightly bigger
display
and a slightly thicker stylus, right? Maybe even happier if you could use
both
your thumbs to push buttons on the on-screen keyboard. (For shift/alt keys
etc. But of course, that could be solved by adding a couple of more real
buttons..)


> >
> > If you think I'm wrong, could you please tell me in which situations you
> > really
> > could use application X or Y on your OpenMoko? And I mean in a situation
> > where you would not have easy access to your EeePC in your back-pack.
>
> Exactly the same situations where I use them on the Psion, probably more
> because I would carry it in situations where even the Psion is too big.
> When
> I first got the Psion I found myself using it in many more situations than
> I

had expected, simply because it was there and it worked.


OK, that's a convincing example to me.  But I'm not convinced that a
capacitive
screen+stylus would prevent you from doing the same things. The iPhone has
a bigger display but is in total smaller than the OpenMoko, and correct me
(again) if I'm wrong, but aren't there some sort of word-processor for the
iPhone too?


>
> > On the other hand, if you add a multi touch capable LCD panel, then you
> > would
> > enable software developers like myself to develop a whole range of new
> > applications that are _not_ possible on a desktop or on the current
> > OpenMoko...
> > Applications that you will never see on the current OpenMoko.
> >
> > (I'm still not ruling out the possibility of a multi touch enabled
> > resistive screen,
> > but I never heard of such a thing...)
>
> I've never seen a commercial one, but I don't think it presents too many
> technical hurdles. unfortunately Openmoko aren't big enough to push a
> manufacturer to make such a thing, unlike Apple.
>

True, which means we will probably never see a resistive multi touch enabled
screen on an OpenMoko...

Best regards
  Anton
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Al Johnson]

On Saturday 22 November 2008, Anton Persson wrote:
> > > If you want those applications then you
> > > need to have some sort of keyboard. When the Ilume keyboard is active
> > > you only have perhaps 60% left of the screen. That means your
> > > application only have _half_ a VGA display. This practically eliminates
> > > the pro that people here have been bringing up, the full VGA display.
> >
> > The Psion's only half-VGA and it works fine there. The Psion does make
> > better
> > use of the screen space, but that's an application issue.
>
> Which means that you would still be happy if you had a slightly bigger
> display and a slightly thicker stylus, right?

Probably not. I found the lack of precision on the iPhone intensely irritating 
when I tried it. I also found that my touches were often not registered, 
probably because I am used to tiny fingertip or fingernail touches that work 
well on resistive screens. The G1 seemed to behave similarly. I could 
probably relearn my touchscreen use, but the loss of precision would be a 
constant background irritant and will preclude the use of small target areas 
that the high pixel density makes possible. Perhaps it's due to years of 
Psion use, but I'm almost as accurate with a fingernail as I am with a 
stylus.

> Maybe even happier if you could use both
> your thumbs to push buttons on the on-screen keyboard. (For shift/alt keys
> etc. But of course, that could be solved by adding a couple of more real
> buttons..)

That would be good, but would be multipointer not simply multitouch. The 
iPhone can't do it if the guitar-type apps are anyting to go by. Now MPX is 
in mailline xorg we could support that, but I don't know that there's any 
touchscreen hardware available that can track multiple fingers independently. 
I don't think it's a technical problem to make one, but that's a conversation 
we've already had.

> > > If you think I'm wrong, could you please tell me in which situations
> > > you really
> > > could use application X or Y on your OpenMoko? And I mean in a
> > > situation where you would not have easy access to your EeePC in your
> > > back-pack.
> >
> > Exactly the same situations where I use them on the Psion, probably more
> > because I would carry it in situations where even the Psion is too big.
> > When
> > I first got the Psion I found myself using it in many more situations
> > than I
>
> had expected, simply because it was there and it worked.
>
>
> OK, that's a convincing example to me.  But I'm not convinced that a
> capacitive
> screen+stylus would prevent you from doing the same things. The iPhone has
> a bigger display but is in total smaller than the OpenMoko, and correct me
> (again) if I'm wrong, but aren't there some sort of word-processor for the
> iPhone too?

The problem for me is the mismatch between the high DPI of the screen and the 
precision of the touch detection. The capacitive touchscreen would prevent us 
from making full use of the display capabilities.

>From a pure usability point of view changing from resistive to capacitive has 
upsides and downsides.
+ More robust
+ Multitouch possible
- Reduced precision
- Requires relearning for habituated resistive screen users.
>From my experience so far the downsides outweigh the upsides, but extended use 
may change my mind.

> > > On the other hand, if you add a multi touch capable LCD panel, then you
> > > would
> > > enable software developers like myself to develop a whole range of new
> > > applications that are _not_ possible on a desktop or on the current
> > > OpenMoko...
> > > Applications that you will never see on the current OpenMoko.
> > >
> > > (I'm still not ruling out the possibility of a multi touch enabled
> > > resistive screen,
> > > but I never heard of such a thing...)
> >
> > I've never seen a commercial one, but I don't think it presents too many
> > technical hurdles. unfortunately Openmoko aren't big enough to push a
> > manufacturer to make such a thing, unlike Apple.
>
> True, which means we will probably never see a resistive multi touch
> enabled screen on an OpenMoko...
>
> Best regards
>   Anton

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Dale Maggee]

Sometimes I wish this was Slashdot:
"Score: 5, Insightful"

:)

Stroller wrote:
> On 21 Nov 2008, at 16:41, Tilman Baumann wrote:
>   
>> I just want to point out that I will not vote because the vote is  
>> bullshit.
>> 
>
> +1
>
> I when I finished reading this list yesterday it had only 3 replies,  
> and thought about replying.
>
> Unless your email address ends in @openmoko.com, please keep "surveys"  
> and "votes" off this list!
>
> They seem to generate a very high number of posts lacking in  
> thoughtfulness - as opposed to, say, those a thread titled "capacitive  
> screens vs touchscreens" might - and it is naive to consider what kind  
> of hardware an individual user would prefer in isolation of all the  
> other compromises that would be required to accommodate the decision.
>
>   
>> And even more important. Price and availability.
>>
>> What you want is totally unimportant. The question is which  
>> compromises
>> are you ready to make?
>> This is nothing that can be figured out by some stupid two options  
>> poll.
>> ...
>>
>> I would like openmoko to do bold steps.
>> But they should also be careful.
>> 
>
> Introduction of a multi-touch screen would only fragment the userbase.  
> 10,000 Freerunner owners would be bitching that they can't run  
> $new.app because it requires the new screen type; owners of the new  
> device would be bitching that existing apps don't use the cool new  
> interface.
>
> Hardware decisions are best made by those who actually have an insight  
> into ALL the variables of the planned hardware. The whims of you & I  
> are simply irrelevant if Openmoko / FIC are unable to purchase multi- 
> touch screens. In case you're not aware, hardware decisions have  
> already been constrained by an unavailability of parts in such small  
> quantities as those used in Openmoko devices - you might have to buy  
> 100,000 or 1,000,000 units before the vendor will talk to you.
>
> Besides that, GTA03 is no longer subject to change - isn't it stupid  
> to be making plans (especially when you're not in a position to do so)  
> for GTA04 or 05, when the hardware available by that time might be  
> quite different from what is on the market now?
>
> Thanks for cluttering up my inbox with this irrelevancy.
>
> Stroller.
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Michael Frandsen]

On Fri, 2008-11-21 at 17:41 +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote:

> I just want to point out that I will not vote because the vote is bullshit.
> 
> The type of the screen is not the only thing. Size and resolution 
> matters too.
> 
> And even more important. Price and availability.
> 
> What you want is totally unimportant. The question is which compromises 
> are you ready to make?
> This is nothing that can be figured out by some stupid two options poll. 
> What goes is eventually a question that can only be answered by looking 
> at sold units in retrospect.
> What you all want is unimportant, because you can not honestly say that 
> it will bias your buying decision in a way you would admit now.
> 
> I would like openmoko to do bold steps.
> But they should also be careful.
> 
> 
> Tilman Baumann wrote:
> > Vikas Saurabh wrote:
> >> I think we need to decide upon this without the bias of UIone
> >> might get excited with iPhone's UI.
> >>
> >> What we would have to remember:
> >> * capacitive screen would always require a touch of finger (hence all
> >> the UI elements need to take enough space on screen) so the whole fun
> >> of high reso is gone
> >> * otoh, pressure based screen need a little more pressure to react but
> >> is often manageable with fingers as well
> >>
> > Agree.
> > Either a really big capacitive screen with no boarders or a small hi res 
> > screen as currently (I like it) with either a stylus or a keypad.
> > 
> > I would vote for the same screen as currently used or at least the same 
> > quality but bigger and a keypad. Finger use for the current screen is 
> > pretty much a failure. (not impossible but as far as text input goes 
> > pretty much failed)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

I admit I voted for capacitive screen without consider all the aspect.
My primary reason was more protected screen and force finger friendly
(which more or less not exist now, more a software issue).

I have a pda I use mostly for car navigation the bigger screen is nice
there. I also use it for connect to internet, use it as voip phone, when
possible, using wifi. It does not have build in gps what was main reason
why I bought my neo (and better portability).

I like the size on neo maybe a little slimmer and I dont want it to be
bigger because then it would be more trouble some to bring with me all
over. My pda is to big I can just squeeze it into my jacket inside
pocket but I have often accidentally activated it often with drain
battery.

My pda have the normal 5 navigation buttons + 4 application buttons
below screen. I never use the navigation buttons only the 4 application
button mostly because I can program them to whatever to activate things
even other programs use the full screen and no hide function.

I like the size and resolution of current neo and the fact that it can
be used for stylus in case programs not finger friendly even it be rare.
Maybe the edge could be smaller so a finger easily can press all the way
to the edge. I can see the benefit for a few buttons to assist a GUI
that need a bigger screen area. If I just needed a small linux computer
to run desktop like applications then I wanted a full keyboard but then
whole benefit of small size and very easy portability is gone then.
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[arne anka]

> Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with
> a capacitive screen

afaik, you can not. a capacitive screen requires fingers and does not work  
with styli.

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Neil Jerram]

2008/11/22 Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> He, actually you're right.. I withdraw that remark.. It's OK hardware,
> but with an excellent aesthetic design, and an innovative UI. A UI that
> would
> not have been possible if the multi-touch hardware was not in place.
>
> /Anton
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, robert lazarski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> > And note that Apple doesn't have it's reputation since they make
>> > poor
>> > hardware decisions, but the opposite.
>>
>> Converesely, one could argue that apple has very mediocre hardware and
>> its strength is both UI and things just work. Not that use apple for
>> anything. More clutter ;-( .

So what this illustrates is that arguing in isolation a question like
what kind of touchscreen to use doesn't make sense.  It only makes
sense in the context of what overall product or goal you're trying to
achieve.  Apple are good at that - but then it's vastly easier for
them because their vision is of a single monoculture everywhere, and
they have no interest in encouraging other options.  It's much more
difficult for Openmoko, because their very point is not to dictate the
final product.

   Neil

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Anton Persson]

afaik you CAN indeed... follow this link:
http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php

On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 1:52 PM, arne anka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with
> > a capacitive screen
>
> afaik, you can not. a capacitive screen requires fingers and does not work
> with styli.
>
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[arne anka]

> afaik you CAN indeed... follow this link:
> http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php

well, that's not what "stylus" means and nothing sensible (why using a  
thing that effectively mimics a finger into the big fat top), but ok.

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[kenneth marken]

On Sunday 23 November 2008 16:59:18 Anton Persson wrote:
> afaik you CAN indeed... follow this link:
> http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php
>
> On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 1:52 PM, arne anka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Less capable in which way? We just saw that you CAN use a stylus with
> > > a capacitive screen
> >
> > afaik, you can not. a capacitive screen requires fingers and does not
> > work with styli.
> >

the trick is basically to find a material that have the same properties as 
human flesh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_screen#Capacitive

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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Steve Mosher]

Neil,

We could not have said it better. In my view the surveys serve a 
good, albeit limited, purpose. They get ideas out in the open and expose 
potential shortcoming of various design decisions. In the end, design 
decisions are complex system dependent choices, choices made under 
constraint. Very rarely does anyone know or appreciate all of the 
constraints, especially when it comes to constraints such as cost,
schedule, reliability, sourcing, etc. In some cases, under certain 
design philosophies the decision process is simplified somewhat by a 
mantra such as "design to cost" wherein cost drives every decision. Been 
there; done that. We could also optimize designs for time to market. The 
path we are taking, as you note, is designing for openness. What does 
that mean? and how do we measure it? The designs are invitations to 
innovation, where the insanely great product is built outside our walls.
So one way to measure it is by the work the community does. Did they 
accept the invitation to innovate? and perhaps more importantly how far 
away from our vision did they wander? The farther the better. That 
approach strikes many as odd, but we view the open design as a 
decentralization of power, the hallmark of which is diversity, not 
homogeneity.  So for example, we might ask WRT touch screens, does this 
design choice limit innovation or promote it. That's a tough one. 
Thanks for "getting" what we are after in our approach.

Neil Jerram wrote:
> 2008/11/22 Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> He, actually you're right.. I withdraw that remark.. It's OK hardware,
>> but with an excellent aesthetic design, and an innovative UI. A UI that
>> would
>> not have been possible if the multi-touch hardware was not in place.
>>
>> /Anton
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 12:35 PM, robert lazarski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> wrote:
 And note that Apple doesn't have it's reputation since they make
 poor
 hardware decisions, but the opposite.
>>> Converesely, one could argue that apple has very mediocre hardware and
>>> its strength is both UI and things just work. Not that use apple for
>>> anything. More clutter ;-( .
> 
> So what this illustrates is that arguing in isolation a question like
> what kind of touchscreen to use doesn't make sense.  It only makes
> sense in the context of what overall product or goal you're trying to
> achieve.  Apple are good at that - but then it's vastly easier for
> them because their vision is of a single monoculture everywhere, and
> they have no interest in encouraging other options.  It's much more
> difficult for Openmoko, because their very point is not to dictate the
> final product.
> 
>Neil
> 
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Re: Survey about the Touchscreen

[Robin Paulson]

2008/11/22 Anton Persson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> it would be interesting to know which type of touch-screen that people would
> prefer to use
> on their future OpenMoko device.
>
> A not so scientific survey can be found at:
> http://www.733kru.org/~pltxtra/OpenMoko/survey.html

is it possible to source a screen that has both capacitive and
pressure interfaces?

this way we (may) get best of both worlds

or, is there any reason why one would clash with the other?

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