Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Mike Silber]

I think we are in violent agreement my brother :-)

> On 5 Aug 2021, at 10:51, Sylvain Baya  wrote:
> 
> {excuse the late response, please!}
> Dear AfriNIC's Community, 
> 
> Le lundi 2 août 2021, Mike Silber  > a écrit :
> Hi Sylvain
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> Thanks for your email, brother.

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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

Mike, that’s fair, but that framework is also set up such that icann performs 
its functions related to the ASO entirely under policies and dirrctives issued 
to it by the NRO/ASO (although formally ratified by the ICANN board), and 
that’s why I used the term puppet. 

Owen

> On Aug 2, 2021, at 01:42, Mike Silber  wrote:
> 
> Hi Noah
> 
> Without getting into the content of your mail and without endorsing the 
> specific language chosen by Owen: The RIRs are independent and ICANN does not 
> in any way direct or control the RIRs.
> 
> The RIRs chose to operate within the ICANN framework, however can move the 
> NRO / ASO out of ICANN at any time (including moving the contract out of PTI 
> as well).
> 
> So I would not characterise ICANN as “puppet” of the NRO - but rather a 
> framework within which an independent NRO choses to operate. That may be a 
> distinction without a difference - so I am not offended by Owen’s choice of 
> words.
> 
> Mike
> 
>> On 2 Aug 2021, at 10:23, Noah  wrote:
>> 
>> Owen,
>> 
>> I have some questions for you...
>> 
>>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:43 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss, 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> While people often mistake ICANN for some form of authority, the reality is 
>>> that for number
>>> resources, ICANN is a puppet at the end of the strings pulled by the NRO 
>>> (which acts in the
>>> role of ICANN ASO).
>> 
>> 
>> Your association with LARUS has really got you off the rails.
>> 
>> No wonder Larus has created the so called purported organization called the 
>> *Number Resource Alliance* aka NRA  whose website is  https://www.nra.help/
>> 
>> Since you claim that ICANN is a puppet of the NRO, and not an authority, is 
>> that why your LARUS which is linked to Cloud Innovation Ltd created this so 
>> called *NRA* organisation.
>> 
>> Are IPv4 brokers now forming their own system?  Against ICANN and the NRO? 
>> 
>> I ask because your sentiments that ICANN is a puppet are really wanting.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Noah
>> 
>>  
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> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Lamiaa Chnayti]

1- I’m not claiming to be a community member. I am a community member,
whether you like it or not..

2- Again, what stability? I’m just taking part of a discussion. If you
really perceive my words and opinion as something that can bring down a
whole community, then I must say I am impressed. (But hey seriously, I once
again assure you that I am just expressing my thoughts. I honestly don’t
understand why people get offended when they’re  free to disagree and move
on.)

3- Africa is better off without Afrinic’s problems.

Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 17:37, Mirriam  a écrit :

>
> No it isn't! What is obvious is you claiming to be here as a community
> member but working so hard to bring down the stability of the same
> community you claim to belong to.
>
> Africa is Afrinic and Afrinic is Africa.
>
> A person (Afrinic) who has children (African Internet Ecosystem) will
> never Perish.
>
> “No matter how beautiful and well crafted a coffin might look, it will not
> make anyone wish for death”. ~African Proverb
>
> Mirriam
>
> On Monday, August 2, 2021, 6:17:35 PM GMT+3, Lamiaa Chnayti <
> lamiaachna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Oh well Mirriam, I think it’s pretty obvious isn’t it? But I’ll consider
> this a genuine question from you, so here you go:
>
> As an AFRICAN citizen I’ve always been here to discuss the future of the
> AFRICAN Internet, just like everyone else.. I’ve always been fine with
> Afrinic, but based on all the recent problems, for everyone’s  sake, I
> believe that things should be taken care of by another RIR.
>
> I mean, let’s not kid ourselves, since Ernest’s scandal, Afrinic’s
> incapability became too blinding to not notice. And what is normal is for
> me to be here for the community as someone from Africa myself - not for
> AFRINIC limited the company (which some people want so badly to make it the
> new norm)
>
> Best regards,
> Lamiaa
>
> Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 15:04, Mirriam  a écrit :
>
>
>
> On Monday, August 2, 2021, 4:49:26 PM GMT+3, Lamiaa Chnayti <
> lamiaachna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>  >>So yes, Africa has always and will always have my support, but not
> AFRINIC..
>
>
> If that is the case, what are you doing on the AFRNIC mailing lists?
>
>
> Mirriam
>
>
>
>
> Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 14:07, Omo Oaiya  a écrit :
>
>
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Anthony Ubah  wrote:
>
> +1 @Mike
>
> Agression and name calling has gradually become the order of the day.
>
>
> I am not supporting any breach of the CoC, but high time!
>
> The days of passive Africans and sellouts who stand by and let external
> parties purloin resources intended for the continent for whatever
> trumped-up reason belong in our past.
>
> Some of us struggle to keep up and so don't comment as much.  Keep up the
> tempo Noah!
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
> --
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>
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>
> --
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Mirriam via Community-Discuss]

 
No it isn't! What is obvious is you claiming to be here as a community member 
but working so hard to bring down the stability of the same community you claim 
to belong to.

Africa is Afrinic and Afrinic is Africa.

A person (Afrinic) who has children (African Internet Ecosystem) will never 
Perish.

“No matter how beautiful and well crafted a coffin might look, it will not make 
anyone wish for death”. ~African Proverb
Mirriam

On Monday, August 2, 2021, 6:17:35 PM GMT+3, Lamiaa Chnayti 
 wrote:  
 
 Oh well Mirriam, I think it’s pretty obvious isn’t it? But I’ll consider this 
a genuine question from you, so here you go:
As an AFRICAN citizen I’ve always been here to discuss the future of the 
AFRICAN Internet, just like everyone else.. I’ve always been fine with Afrinic, 
but based on all the recent problems, for everyone’s  sake, I believe that 
things should be taken care of by another RIR. 
I mean, let’s not kid ourselves, since Ernest’s scandal, Afrinic’s incapability 
became too blinding to not notice. And what is normal is for me to be here for 
the community as someone from Africa myself - not for AFRINIC limited the 
company (which some people want so badly to make it the new norm)
Best regards,Lamiaa
Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 15:04, Mirriam  a écrit :

 

On Monday, August 2, 2021, 4:49:26 PM GMT+3, Lamiaa Chnayti 
 wrote:  
 
  >>So yes, Africa has always and will always have my support, but not AFRINIC..


If that is the case, what are you doing on the AFRNIC mailing lists?

Mirriam




Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 14:07, Omo Oaiya  a écrit :


On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Anthony Ubah  wrote:

+1 @Mike
Agression and name calling has gradually become the order of the day.

I am not supporting any breach of the CoC, but high time!  

The days of passive Africans and sellouts who stand by and let external parties 
purloin resources intended for the continent for whatever trumped-up reason 
belong in our past. 

Some of us struggle to keep up and so don't comment as much.  Keep up the tempo 
Noah!___
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Lamiaa Chnayti]

Aww thanks Frank, that’s very nice of you. But don’t
be sad, I’m not going anywhere. I’m actually very glad to see that this
community still has nice people !

Best regards,
Lamiaa


Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 15:17, Frank Habicht  a écrit :

> On 02/08/2021 16:48, Lamiaa Chnayti wrote:
> > So yes, Africa
> > has always and will always have my support, but not AFRINIC..
>
> Sad to see you go, but well - it is what it is.
>
> Frank
>
>
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>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Lamiaa Chnayti]

Oh well Mirriam, I think it’s pretty obvious isn’t it? But I’ll consider
this a genuine question from you, so here you go:

As an AFRICAN citizen I’ve always been here to discuss the future of the
AFRICAN Internet, just like everyone else.. I’ve always been fine with
Afrinic, but based on all the recent problems, for everyone’s  sake, I
believe that things should be taken care of by another RIR.

I mean, let’s not kid ourselves, since Ernest’s scandal, Afrinic’s
incapability became too blinding to not notice. And what is normal is for
me to be here for the community as someone from Africa myself - not for
AFRINIC limited the company (which some people want so badly to make it the
new norm)

Best regards,
Lamiaa

Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 15:04, Mirriam  a écrit :

>
>
> On Monday, August 2, 2021, 4:49:26 PM GMT+3, Lamiaa Chnayti <
> lamiaachna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>  >>So yes, Africa has always and will always have my support, but not
> AFRINIC..
>
>
> If that is the case, what are you doing on the AFRNIC mailing lists?
>
>
> Mirriam
>
>
>
>
> Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 14:07, Omo Oaiya  a écrit :
>
>
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Anthony Ubah  wrote:
>
> +1 @Mike
>
> Agression and name calling has gradually become the order of the day.
>
>
> I am not supporting any breach of the CoC, but high time!
>
> The days of passive Africans and sellouts who stand by and let external
> parties purloin resources intended for the continent for whatever
> trumped-up reason belong in our past.
>
> Some of us struggle to keep up and so don't comment as much.  Keep up the
> tempo Noah!
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
> --
> Lamiaa CHNAYTI
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Frank Habicht]

On 02/08/2021 16:48, Lamiaa Chnayti wrote:
> So yes, Africa
> has always and will always have my support, but not AFRINIC..

Sad to see you go, but well - it is what it is.

Frank


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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Ibeanusi Elvis]

Like Lamiaa pointed out the goal still evidently remains the same but the
method at which we aim to achieve it is and might be different but securing
the continent is a top priority.

In addition, let’s stop this naming callings that has been happening on
this thread and on other threads and focus on having an educated and
learned conversation without violating the CoD.

Thanks,
Elvis.

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 22:58 Mike Silber  wrote:

> Please leave me out of it
>
> Noah and I are able to have a civilised conversation and a respectful
> disagreement, without third parties trying to stoke some imagined grievance.
>
>
> On 2 Aug 2021, at 13:11, Anthony Ubah  wrote:
>
> +1 @Mike
>
> Agression and name calling has gradually become the order of the day.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021, 4:44 AM Mike Silber  wrote:
>
>> Hi Noah
>>
>> Without getting into the content of your mail and without endorsing the
>> specific language chosen by Owen: The RIRs are independent and ICANN does
>> not in any way direct or control the RIRs.
>>
>> The RIRs chose to operate within the ICANN framework, however can move
>> the NRO / ASO out of ICANN at any time (including moving the contract out
>> of PTI as well).
>>
>> So I would not characterise ICANN as “puppet” of the NRO - but rather a
>> framework within which an independent NRO choses to operate. That may be a
>> distinction without a difference - so I am not offended by Owen’s choice of
>> words.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On 2 Aug 2021, at 10:23, Noah  wrote:
>>
>> Owen,
>>
>> I have some questions for you...
>>
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:43 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss, <
>> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> While people often mistake ICANN for some form of authority, the reality
>>> is that for number
>>> resources, ICANN is a puppet at the end of the strings pulled by the NRO
>>> (which acts in the
>>> role of ICANN ASO).
>>>
>>
>> Your association with LARUS has really got you off the rails.
>>
>> No wonder Larus has created the so called purported organization called
>> the *Number Resource Alliance* aka NRA  whose website is
>> https://www.nra.help/
>>
>> Since you claim that ICANN is a puppet of the NRO, and not an authority,
>> is that why your LARUS which is linked to Cloud Innovation Ltd created this
>> so called *NRA* organisation.
>>
>> Are IPv4 brokers now forming their own system?  Against ICANN and the
>> NRO?
>>
>> I ask because your sentiments that ICANN is a puppet are really wanting.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Noah
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Mike Silber]

Hi Sylvain

I respectfully disagree.

ICANN is a convenience through which the RIR’s operate.

The rest of the NRO recognised AfriNIC and could have done so without ICANN 
involvement - had they so chosen. 

As it is - the NRO fulfils the role of ASO within ICANN and it could terminate 
the ASO / NRO nexus at any time with little to no impact. 

Did you miss this in RFC 7020:

The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) *is a role, not an
  organization*.  For the Internet Numbers Registry System, the IANA
  role manages the top of the IP address and AS number allocation
  hierarchies.  The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and
  Numbers (ICANN) *currently fulfills the IANA role" in accordance
  with the IETF-ICANN "Memorandum of Understanding Concerning
  Technical Work of the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority", which
  was signed and ratified in March 2000

It is the RIRs who chose ICANN and not the other way around.

Mike

> On 2 Aug 2021, at 14:49, Sylvain Baya  wrote:
> 
> Dear AfriNIC's Community, 
> 
> Le lundi 2 août 2021, Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>> a écrit :
> Hi Mike
> 
> 
> Hi Noah, 
> 
> Thanks for your email, brother!
> 
> ...it's time to learn about the RIR system's history.
> 
>  
> Thank you for your reply and opinion on the matter.
> 
> I am personally offended by Owens choice of words against ICANN.
> 
> The existence of an RIR is only possible through ICANN ICP-2  and for him to 
> refer to ICANN as a puppet is offending.
> 
> AFRINIC would not have existed without the ICANN structures.
> 
> 
> Exact!
> 
> For those who need an anchor to start with,  
> please look at RFC7020:
> 
> The Internet Numbers Registry System
> >
> 
> Shalom,
> --sb.
>  
> 

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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Lamiaa Chnayti]

Without any hesitation, our continent always comes first. Unfortunately, if
some other members weren’t so obsessed with diverting the scenario due to
their personal motives and conflicts, you should clearly see that the goal
remains the same, and the only difference is the way to achieve it.

The mailing list is now bombarded with useless threads, but as I’ve
mentioned elsewhere, Africa and its Internet deserve better than what
AFRINIC’s poor decisions and management are putting them through.

I am sure that Africa isn’t short of highly qualified and competent firms
that can benefit our Internet better than AFRINIC. So yes, Africa has
always and will always have my support, but not AFRINIC..

Best regards,
Lamiaa

Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 14:07, Omo Oaiya  a écrit :

>
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Anthony Ubah  wrote:
>
>> +1 @Mike
>>
>> Agression and name calling has gradually become the order of the day.
>>
>
> I am not supporting any breach of the CoC, but high time!
>
> The days of passive Africans and sellouts who stand by and let external
> parties purloin resources intended for the continent for whatever
> trumped-up reason belong in our past.
>
> Some of us struggle to keep up and so don't comment as much.  Keep up the
> tempo Noah!
> ___
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Omo Oaiya]

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Anthony Ubah  wrote:

> +1 @Mike
>
> Agression and name calling has gradually become the order of the day.
>

I am not supporting any breach of the CoC, but high time!

The days of passive Africans and sellouts who stand by and let external
parties purloin resources intended for the continent for whatever
trumped-up reason belong in our past.

Some of us struggle to keep up and so don't comment as much.  Keep up the
tempo Noah!
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Anthony Ubah]

+1 @Mike

Agression and name calling has gradually become the order of the day.


On Mon, Aug 2, 2021, 4:44 AM Mike Silber  wrote:

> Hi Noah
>
> Without getting into the content of your mail and without endorsing the
> specific language chosen by Owen: The RIRs are independent and ICANN does
> not in any way direct or control the RIRs.
>
> The RIRs chose to operate within the ICANN framework, however can move the
> NRO / ASO out of ICANN at any time (including moving the contract out of
> PTI as well).
>
> So I would not characterise ICANN as “puppet” of the NRO - but rather a
> framework within which an independent NRO choses to operate. That may be a
> distinction without a difference - so I am not offended by Owen’s choice of
> words.
>
> Mike
>
> On 2 Aug 2021, at 10:23, Noah  wrote:
>
> Owen,
>
> I have some questions for you...
>
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:43 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss, <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> While people often mistake ICANN for some form of authority, the reality
>> is that for number
>> resources, ICANN is a puppet at the end of the strings pulled by the NRO
>> (which acts in the
>> role of ICANN ASO).
>>
>
> Your association with LARUS has really got you off the rails.
>
> No wonder Larus has created the so called purported organization called
> the *Number Resource Alliance* aka NRA  whose website is
> https://www.nra.help/
>
> Since you claim that ICANN is a puppet of the NRO, and not an authority,
> is that why your LARUS which is linked to Cloud Innovation Ltd created this
> so called *NRA* organisation.
>
> Are IPv4 brokers now forming their own system?  Against ICANN and the NRO?
>
> I ask because your sentiments that ICANN is a puppet are really wanting.
>
> Cheers,
> Noah
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Noah]

Hi Mike

Thank you for your reply and opinion on the matter.

I am personally offended by Owens choice of words against ICANN.

The existence of an RIR is only possible through ICANN ICP-2  and for him
to refer to ICANN as a puppet is offending.

AFRINIC would not have existed without the ICANN structures.

Noah

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, 11:42 Mike Silber,  wrote:

> Hi Noah
>
> Without getting into the content of your mail and without endorsing the
> specific language chosen by Owen: The RIRs are independent and ICANN does
> not in any way direct or control the RIRs.
>
> The RIRs chose to operate within the ICANN framework, however can move the
> NRO / ASO out of ICANN at any time (including moving the contract out of
> PTI as well).
>
> So I would not characterise ICANN as “puppet” of the NRO - but rather a
> framework within which an independent NRO choses to operate. That may be a
> distinction without a difference - so I am not offended by Owen’s choice of
> words.
>
> Mike
>
> On 2 Aug 2021, at 10:23, Noah  wrote:
>
> Owen,
>
> I have some questions for you...
>
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:43 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss, <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> While people often mistake ICANN for some form of authority, the reality
>> is that for number
>> resources, ICANN is a puppet at the end of the strings pulled by the NRO
>> (which acts in the
>> role of ICANN ASO).
>>
>
> Your association with LARUS has really got you off the rails.
>
> No wonder Larus has created the so called purported organization called
> the *Number Resource Alliance* aka NRA  whose website is
> https://www.nra.help/
>
> Since you claim that ICANN is a puppet of the NRO, and not an authority,
> is that why your LARUS which is linked to Cloud Innovation Ltd created this
> so called *NRA* organisation.
>
> Are IPv4 brokers now forming their own system?  Against ICANN and the NRO?
>
> I ask because your sentiments that ICANN is a puppet are really wanting.
>
> Cheers,
> Noah
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Mike Silber]

Hi Noah

Without getting into the content of your mail and without endorsing the 
specific language chosen by Owen: The RIRs are independent and ICANN does not 
in any way direct or control the RIRs.

The RIRs chose to operate within the ICANN framework, however can move the NRO 
/ ASO out of ICANN at any time (including moving the contract out of PTI as 
well).

So I would not characterise ICANN as “puppet” of the NRO - but rather a 
framework within which an independent NRO choses to operate. That may be a 
distinction without a difference - so I am not offended by Owen’s choice of 
words.

Mike

> On 2 Aug 2021, at 10:23, Noah  wrote:
> 
> Owen,
> 
> I have some questions for you...
> 
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:43 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss, 
> mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>> wrote:
> 
> While people often mistake ICANN for some form of authority, the reality is 
> that for number
> resources, ICANN is a puppet at the end of the strings pulled by the NRO 
> (which acts in the
> role of ICANN ASO).
> 
> Your association with LARUS has really got you off the rails.
> 
> No wonder Larus has created the so called purported organization called the 
> *Number Resource Alliance* aka NRA  whose website is  https://www.nra.help/ 
> 
> 
> Since you claim that ICANN is a puppet of the NRO, and not an authority, is 
> that why your LARUS which is linked to Cloud Innovation Ltd created this so 
> called *NRA* organisation.
> 
> Are IPv4 brokers now forming their own system?  Against ICANN and the NRO? 
> 
> I ask because your sentiments that ICANN is a puppet are really wanting.
> 
> Cheers,
> Noah
> 
>  
> ___
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Re: [Community-Discuss] ICANN ( NRO ) vs LARUS (NRA)

[Arnaud AMELINA]

@Noah +100. Yeah we need his sentiments on that. Please answer,
Owen, now we can understand you resignation from ARIN's AC, hu
interesting things Waiting for your reaction on that.

Le lun. 2 août 2021 à 08:26, Noah  a écrit :

> Owen,
>
> I have some questions for you...
>
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:43 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss, <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> While people often mistake ICANN for some form of authority, the reality
>> is that for number
>> resources, ICANN is a puppet at the end of the strings pulled by the NRO
>> (which acts in the
>> role of ICANN ASO).
>>
>
> Your association with LARUS has really got you off the rails.
>
> No wonder Larus has created the so called purported organization called
> the *Number Resource Alliance* aka NRA  whose website is
> https://www.nra.help/
>
> Since you claim that ICANN is a puppet of the NRO, and not an authority,
> is that why your LARUS which is linked to Cloud Innovation Ltd created this
> so called *NRA* organisation.
>
> Are IPv4 brokers now forming their own system?  Against ICANN and the NRO?
>
> I ask because your sentiments that ICANN is a puppet are really wanting.
>
> Cheers,
> Noah
>
>
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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