Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021, 00:22 Sylvain BAYA,  wrote:

> Dear Community,
> Hope you are doing well!
>
> Le ven. 5 févr. 2021 14:44, Owen DeLong  a écrit :
> >
>
> Dear Owen,
> Thanks for your email, brother.
>
> >
> > Originally, the space was used for some rather specialized connectivity
> > services.
> >
>
> :-) ...any evidence ?
>
> Good new ! we know, now, that no one
> can get Internet number resources
> (INRs) at AfriNIC in justifying its needs
> as to engage in leasing such precious
> resources...
>
> ...what we still not know is *if* their new
> justification of utilization of INRs was
> explaining that they were going to start
> a leasing activity with *our* INRs.


This can only be answered by AFRINIC who have the capacity to check how the
space that was originally meant for a different purpose ended up being used
for leasing which for long this community has shed light too.

Dont expect answers from a conflicted Owen.

Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Hi Widjane,

 

Responding below in-line …

 

 

 

El 12/2/21 18:06, "Wijdane Goubi"  escribió:

 

Hello Jordi,
 
So the thing is that, since all of the 5 RIRs have transfer policies 
(regardless whether they are intraRIR or interRIR), and since no one has ever 
applied space 

 

[Jordi] This is not correct. In the PDWG I’ve presented several times stats 
about the transfers that have been happening since a few years.

 

for transfer in the history of RIR, then by the very definition of the transfer 
policy, the change of purpose is allowed. If in some region there is some old 
and 

 

[Jordi] This is an agreement of the community (in some RIR communities): 
Policies don’t allow you to change the “usage” (for example you want to use 
more of the 50% of the space out of the region), however, instead of returning 
it, because others need it (at least when speaking about IPv4), we allow it to 
be transferred HOWEVER the new resource-holder MUST pre-qualify to receive the 
space following the existing policies (in the destination RIR). I will agree 
that in a ideal world, instead of transfers, we will just be honest, return the 
space that we no longer use to the RIR, so it can be allocated to others that 
demonstrate the justified-need. However, that will not solve the unbalance 
between different regions, and the transfers resolve that. Some regions have 
more legacy or more IPv6 deployment, which means that they are happy to (get 
some money) and transfer it to other regions.

 

obsolete policy text that forbids change of purpose for usage, then those 
should be considered invalid because they are directly contradicting the newer 

 

[Jordi] I disagree here. It is not about obsolete policies, it is about 
different cultural and business visions, tied to different timings. In the end, 
my experience shows that most of the RIR policies tend to converge, may be not 
with a 100% same wording or intent, but very close. Again, I will probably 
prefer that those usage changes are less restrictive, but it is very difficult 
to make a policy that has the right balance for all the community participants, 
especially in that specific topic and even more in regions that have a smaller 
Internet footprint vs others more advanced: it is completely understandable, 
because you may think that the resources that you will need in that region may 
go away (even if that’s not the case as IPv6 deployment in other regions is 
progressing faster).

 

policy text (transfer policy). Also, while a proper policy update is preferred 
in those situations, it is not necessary, since the later policy text always 
wins over the old one, as the newer one represents better the current community 
needs and wishes.

 

[Jordi] No, they are different policies: we still need a “justified need 
policy” and a transfer policy. Otherwise, you could transfer the space to 
someone that only want it to stockpile and do business, and this is not the 
purpose, because that will be really bad for the global Internet. So justified 
need policies try to avoid that as much as possible.


 
Besides, change of purpose for usage is allowed in the current AFRINIC policy 
text. There is not even an obsolete old policy text in AFRINIC’s CPM that 
prevents LIR making their assignment for a different purpose, it only mentions 
the sub-allocation, which is a totally different thing. So basically, change of 
purpose for usage is always allowed in the AFRINIC region.

 

[Jordi] I read the CPM differently. In the case of IPv4, for example, section 
5.4.6.2 states that the AFRINIC resources are for this service region and only 
can be  used outside for connectivity back to the region. Before the existence 
of that policy, it could be unclear if you can use the resources outside, but 
not since it was ratified.


 
In fact, the design of IP address policy did have the change of purpose in 
mind, that is the very reason why we have two distinct definitions of  
"allocation" and "assignment", LIR gets allocation, then makes assignment for 
each specific user case, while the allocation is for general purpose, and you 
need to make the assignment inside the allocation for each user case to the end 
users. The Allocation stays with LIR, while the Assignment comes and goes as 
the user case existed or not. If change of purpose is not allowed, then there 
is absolutely no reason to distinguish them. AFRINIC should make assignment to 
each LIR then evaluate every time the user case changes which is quite 
impossible and impractical. As an example, if I made /23 for one web hosting 
customer and then the customer leaves, I will need to go through an entire 
application process again just because the same server goes to a VPN customer, 
and this doesn’t happen anywhere in the world, and currently not with AFRINIC. 
Allowing LIR to freely manage its space usage within the allocation is the very 
core design of IP address policy.

 

[Jordi] Nothing to object here, but sti

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Wijdane Goubi]

Hello Jordi,

So the thing is that, since all of the 5 RIRs have transfer policies
(regardless whether they are intraRIR or interRIR), and since no one has
ever applied space for transfer in the history of RIR, then by the very
definition of the transfer policy, the change of purpose is allowed. If in
some region there is some old and obsolete policy text that forbids change
of purpose for usage, then those should be considered invalid because they
are directly contradicting the newer policy text (transfer policy). Also,
while a proper policy update is preferred in those situations, it is not
necessary, since the later policy text always wins over the old one, as the
newer one represents better the current community needs and wishes.

Besides, change of purpose for usage is allowed in the current AFRINIC
policy text. There is not even an obsolete old policy text in AFRINIC’s CPM
that prevents LIR making their assignment for a different purpose, it only
mentions the sub-allocation, which is a totally different thing. So
basically, change of purpose for usage is always allowed in the AFRINIC
region.

In fact, the design of IP address policy did have the change of purpose in
mind, that is the very reason why we have two distinct definitions of
"allocation" and "assignment", LIR gets allocation, then makes assignment
for each specific user case, while the allocation is for general purpose,
and you need to make the assignment inside the allocation for each user
case to the end users. The Allocation stays with LIR, while the Assignment
comes and goes as the user case existed or not. If change of purpose is not
allowed, then there is absolutely no reason to distinguish them. AFRINIC
should make assignment to each LIR then evaluate every time the user case
changes which is quite impossible and impractical. As an example, if I made
/23 for one web hosting customer and then the customer leaves, I will need
to go through an entire application process again just because the same
server goes to a VPN customer, and this doesn’t happen anywhere in the
world, and currently not with AFRINIC. *Allowing LIR to freely manage its
space usage within the allocation is the very core design of IP address
policy.*

Moreover, this is the exact reason why RSA is so badly written and
shouldn't contain any resource management clause. The lawyers do not
understand the very concept of Allocation and Assignment, let alone
distinguishing between them. Therefore, allowing lawyers texts to manage
community resources is not only illegitimate, but also lacks of needed
technical understanding of addressing to properly write it, that is why we
now have an RSA which is full of invalid IP management clauses and
contradiction to the policy itself, which needs to be fixed at some point
of time. Not to mention that allowing lawyers to manage the resources
defies the very foundation of the bottom up process.



Le jeu. 11 févr. 2021 à 20:34, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> a écrit :

> Hi Widjane,
>
>
>
> I agree with you in some of the points, but not in all them.
>
>
>
>1. Policies among the RIRs aren’t exactly the same. They tend to
>converge with the time, but not always are 100% the same.
>2. In fact, in some RIRs, right now, if you asked for resources and
>provided documents about what will be the usage and you change usage,
>you’re under lack of compliance. Note that we aren’t talking about business
>grow. For example, a very simple on, let’s suppose you got resources for an
>organization (assigned resources) and now you want to provide Internet
>services to others, that will be against policies, in all the RIRs. Another
>example, if you got resources in some RIRs you can’t use them to provide
>services outside of that region (at all, example AFRINIC, or depending on
>the % example LACNIC, it depends on the RIR).
>3. I can agree with your that this is not right in many situations and
>policy should allow it. However, there are technical issues about allowing
>that freely, not just policy issues (and sometimes the policy issues, in
>fact, happen because technical issues).
>4. AFRINIC is the only RIR, at the time being, that has not adopted
>(ratified and even less implemented) a policy proposal for Inter-RIR
>transfers. However, even in most of the RIRs, the allowed transfers are
>only for IPv4.
>5. I will love that we could make policy changes in a more dynamic
>way, but specially in AFRINIC, it is being too slow.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> El 11/2/21 20:01, "Wijdane Goubi"  escribió:
>
>
>
> Dear community,
>
> Technically speaking, if a change of the nature is not allowed (as claimed
> by some) this doesn’t make any technical sense at all as there are
> consensus among several RIRs to allow inter RIR transfer and also allows
> intra RIR transfers.
>
> The logic adopted that the change 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message 
, 
Wijdane Goubi  wrote:

>Whereas, at or around 08:29:50, Leslie from ARIN explains the scope of
>their policy, they only audit in fraud cases and only deregister in case of
>fraud.

And typically, not even then!!

References:

https://seclists.org/nanog/2019/Aug/461
https://seclists.org/nanog/2020/Jan/611

(I could say a LOT more things about these two cases, but I will let
the facts and my prior research on these cases speak for themselves.
Then you can all judge for yourselves whether or not you think that
ARIN has been a good steward of the IP number resources that have been
placed into its care.)


Regards,
rfg


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

Hi Wijdane,

To be honest, I could careless about the global consensus of how IPv4
address space is used and what Andrea Cima said about RIPE because AFRINIC
is not RIPE.  IANA allocated to AFRINIC and AFRINIC allocated to LIR's
within its region based on need with a justied purpose.

AFRINIC has its own rules and if address space was obtained to number
infrastructure in AFRICA but its instead being traded aka leased for profit
outside AFRICA, that is a different case altogether as it tantamount to
fraud and violations of terms of the RSA.

It's also worth noting that todate, AFRINIC does not have an Inter-RIR
transfer policy because the community in this part of the world has yet to
agree on one.

*./noah*
neo - network engineering and operations


On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:02 PM Wijdane Goubi 
wrote:

> Dear community,
>
> Technically speaking, if a change of the nature is not allowed (as claimed
> by some) this doesn’t make any technical sense at all as there are
> consensus among several RIRs to allow inter RIR transfer and also allows
> intra RIR transfers.
>
> The logic adopted that the change of nature is not permitted doesn’t sit
> well with the established sections of the policies adopted and used. In
> fact, the logic will bar and limit the ability for an organization to grow
> and expend its services.
>
> This imposition will also burden the member to go through unnecessary
> bureaucratic demands and expectations whereas the matter could easily be
> resolved. The policy and understanding of business nature needs to be as
> dynamic as the internet is!
>
> The internet grows and evolves from one form to another, so should the
> policy.
> In fact, RIR never bothers or care with how the space is being used for.
>
> A post from years ago (
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2017/007222.html ), from both
> ARIN and RIPE explained that once the space is issued, their only concern
> is to ensure accurate registration.
>
> The video and the section where both ARIN and RIPE NCC are speaking can be
> found on the following link:
> https://youtu.be/XBv44KAgFVQlist=PLLJRUWAm1GCZAGzqiCzX2CRU7oqLDC9e5
>
> At or around 08:27:50, Andrea Cima from RIPE NCC explains that their
> reviews are called “ARC”, and it is to keep in touch and keep the data up
> to data, registry data, that is the contact details and so on.
> Investigation, that is the part of the “fraud”.
>
> Whereas, at or around 08:29:50, Leslie from ARIN explains the scope of
> their policy, they only audit in fraud cases and only deregister in case of
> fraud.
>
> Neither the RIPE NCC or ARIN does a re-evaluation of the resources and
> questions on how the LIRs are currently using their resources.
>
> There is a global consensus on how spaces are being used currently—as long
> as the allocation process was justified and registration is actual, RIR
> does not care about its current usage.
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>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Hi Widjane,

 

I agree with you in some of the points, but not in all them.

 
Policies among the RIRs aren’t exactly the same. They tend to converge with the 
time, but not always are 100% the same.
In fact, in some RIRs, right now, if you asked for resources and provided 
documents about what will be the usage and you change usage, you’re under lack 
of compliance. Note that we aren’t talking about business grow. For example, a 
very simple on, let’s suppose you got resources for an organization (assigned 
resources) and now you want to provide Internet services to others, that will 
be against policies, in all the RIRs. Another example, if you got resources in 
some RIRs you can’t use them to provide services outside of that region (at 
all, example AFRINIC, or depending on the % example LACNIC, it depends on the 
RIR).
I can agree with your that this is not right in many situations and policy 
should allow it. However, there are technical issues about allowing that 
freely, not just policy issues (and sometimes the policy issues, in fact, 
happen because technical issues).
AFRINIC is the only RIR, at the time being, that has not adopted (ratified and 
even less implemented) a policy proposal for Inter-RIR transfers. However, even 
in most of the RIRs, the allowed transfers are only for IPv4.
I will love that we could make policy changes in a more dynamic way, but 
specially in AFRINIC, it is being too slow.
 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 11/2/21 20:01, "Wijdane Goubi"  escribió:

 

Dear community,

Technically speaking, if a change of the nature is not allowed (as claimed by 
some) this doesn’t make any technical sense at all as there are consensus among 
several RIRs to allow inter RIR transfer and also allows intra RIR transfers. 

The logic adopted that the change of nature is not permitted doesn’t sit well 
with the established sections of the policies adopted and used. In fact, the 
logic will bar and limit the ability for an organization to grow and expend its 
services. 

This imposition will also burden the member to go through unnecessary 
bureaucratic demands and expectations whereas the matter could easily be 
resolved. The policy and understanding of business nature needs to be as 
dynamic as the internet is!

The internet grows and evolves from one form to another, so should the policy. 
In fact, RIR never bothers or care with how the space is being used for.

A post from years ago (https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2017/007222.html 
), from both ARIN and RIPE explained that once the space is issued, their only 
concern is to ensure accurate registration.

The video and the section where both ARIN and RIPE NCC are speaking can be 
found on the following link: 
https://youtu.be/XBv44KAgFVQlist=PLLJRUWAm1GCZAGzqiCzX2CRU7oqLDC9e5 

At or around 08:27:50, Andrea Cima from RIPE NCC explains that their reviews 
are called “ARC”, and it is to keep in touch and keep the data up to data, 
registry data, that is the contact details and so on. Investigation, that is 
the part of the “fraud”.

Whereas, at or around 08:29:50, Leslie from ARIN explains the scope of their 
policy, they only audit in fraud cases and only deregister in case of fraud.

Neither the RIPE NCC or ARIN does a re-evaluation of the resources and 
questions on how the LIRs are currently using their resources.

There is a global consensus on how spaces are being used currently—as long as 
the allocation process was justified and registration is actual, RIR does not 
care about its current usage.

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Wijdane Goubi]

Dear community,

Technically speaking, if a change of the nature is not allowed (as claimed
by some) this doesn’t make any technical sense at all as there are
consensus among several RIRs to allow inter RIR transfer and also allows
intra RIR transfers.

The logic adopted that the change of nature is not permitted doesn’t sit
well with the established sections of the policies adopted and used. In
fact, the logic will bar and limit the ability for an organization to grow
and expend its services.

This imposition will also burden the member to go through unnecessary
bureaucratic demands and expectations whereas the matter could easily be
resolved. The policy and understanding of business nature needs to be as
dynamic as the internet is!

The internet grows and evolves from one form to another, so should the
policy.
In fact, RIR never bothers or care with how the space is being used for.

A post from years ago (
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2017/007222.html ), from both ARIN
and RIPE explained that once the space is issued, their only concern is to
ensure accurate registration.

The video and the section where both ARIN and RIPE NCC are speaking can be
found on the following link:
https://youtu.be/XBv44KAgFVQlist=PLLJRUWAm1GCZAGzqiCzX2CRU7oqLDC9e5

At or around 08:27:50, Andrea Cima from RIPE NCC explains that their
reviews are called “ARC”, and it is to keep in touch and keep the data up
to data, registry data, that is the contact details and so on.
Investigation, that is the part of the “fraud”.

Whereas, at or around 08:29:50, Leslie from ARIN explains the scope of
their policy, they only audit in fraud cases and only deregister in case of
fraud.

Neither the RIPE NCC or ARIN does a re-evaluation of the resources and
questions on how the LIRs are currently using their resources.

There is a global consensus on how spaces are being used currently—as long
as the allocation process was justified and registration is actual, RIR
does not care about its current usage.
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

In my opinion, the right way to have this is:

 
Bylaws, almost as they are now. They refer already to the resources, PDP and 
the RSA.
RSA. Handles well the relation of any member with AFRINIC. However, this is 
only covering “full members” in the sense that they are getting any resources 
from AFRINIC *and* then they get the full set of services. For example, it 
handles in a very generic way the recovery of resources from members that 
violate PDP, stop paying fees, etc.
PDP (CPM). It tells AFRINIC what are the policies that they should apply to 
provide resources and services and under what conditions the services and 
resources are provided. The PDP is the most important document, the other two 
are just “frameworks”.
 

Note that I’m not saying that any of those documents is 100% correct, they all 
have mistakes, typos, things to improve, etc.

 

What we are missing:
A kind of RSA for legacy holders. If they decide to pay for the full set of 
services, they will sign the RSA. Note that this is not changing what we have 
already today. A legacy holder that got originally only IPv4 resources, and now 
as for an ASN or IPv6, they will need to sign the RSA already. However, a 
legacy holder that only has the original set of IPv4 resources allocated 
pre-RIR, still need some of the registration services, so we need a “slightly 
reduced fee” and a specific service agreement. May be “LSA” Legacy Services 
Agreement.
Maybe, to be able to do a)  in “better” conditions, the CPM should have a new 
section stating what are the policies that apply to the Legacy holders and what 
services they get. I think it is a simple section stating what sections of the 
existing CPM apply and what other not. I’m not saying it is easy to agree on 
this … this is PDP work. Note that a) could be written in such way that even if 
this new CPM section is still not available, once available, it will be 
enforceable. I know is difficult, but because they don’t get the full set of 
services, if we play well, this, together with the need for IPv6, ASN, etc., 
could push the legacy to join the regular membership, accept all the policies 
and sign the RSA instead of the LSA.
 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 11/2/21 18:46, "Paul Wollner"  escribió:

 

Hi Noah

 

Thanks for your prompt reply. I will say the same goes for the bylaw, they are 
both lawyer-made documents which should not govern the usage of community 
resource. Or else lawyers can do whatever they want to, then what is the point 
of having a community and CPM?

 

Using bylaw to justify the action of using RSA to manage IP resource is not 
only invalid (as RSA is a document written by lawyers)but also very ridiculous. 
These documents shouldn’t contain anything about resource management in the 
very first place because this can be used as an evidence of AFRINIC not 
following up its own “bottom up process” - which consequently violates its 
legitimacy of existence.

 

The only valid way of resource management is through PDP, by making changes to 
the CPM - both PDP and CPM are above any jurisdiction and any legal documents 
such as bylaw and RSA.

 

As for the bylaw and RSA, they should simply refer all resource management 
clauses to the CPM and delete all resource management clauses. The versions 
current are very poorly written and need to be redone.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 19:09:15 +0200 Noah  wrote 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Before we dwell into the RSA, please read the AFRINIC Bylaws and specifically 
article 3.4 sections (i) and (iii).

 

The constitution is clear on what the objectives of AFRINIC are among others. 
The RSA and ratified policies regulate the said management of Internet number 
resources.

 

Noah

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021, 19:54 Paul Wollner,  wrote:

Hello Everyone,

 

It is vital to note that the RSA is not the document to regulate the resource 
usage. If this is the case then, the entire bottom up policy will be obsolete! 
The RSA can easily be amended by AFRINIC which allows and permit an arbitrary 
form of changes being made neglecting the proper PDP flow. This form of 
suggestion and idea is dangerous as it allows AFRINIC absolute control.

 

We need to be mindful with what we say especially if we tend to argue for the 
sake of bashing certain individuals as this have the tendency to endanger the 
very basis that AFRINIC exists on, which is the bottom up policy.

 

The fact remains that the RSA is a mere contractual document which establishes 
the relationship between the Parties which are party to the document. In 
essence, any issues on ground of technicality is amendable and can be made 
right with proper resolution of the Parties and it is not the end of the world.

 

The above also encompass the mere technicalities including the change of 
nature. So long as the change of nature does not violate any written laws and 
are not used for crime, it should be permitted and AFRINIC should not be 
allowed to ar

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Paul Wollner]

Hi Noah



Thanks for your prompt reply. I will say the same goes for the bylaw, they are 
both lawyer-made documents which should not govern the usage of community 
resource. Or else lawyers can do whatever they want to, then what is the point 
of having a community and CPM?



Using bylaw to justify the action of using RSA to manage IP resource is not 
only invalid (as RSA is a document written by lawyers)but also very ridiculous. 
These documents shouldn’t contain anything about resource management in the 
very first place because this can be used as an evidence of AFRINIC not 
following up its own “bottom up process” - which consequently violates its 
legitimacy of existence.



The only valid way of resource management is through PDP, by making changes to 
the CPM - both PDP and CPM are above any jurisdiction and any legal documents 
such as bylaw and RSA.



As for the bylaw and RSA, they should simply refer all resource management 
clauses to the CPM and delete all resource management clauses. The versions 
current are very poorly written and need to be redone.



Paul









 On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 19:09:15 +0200 Noah  wrote 


Hi Paul,



Before we dwell into the RSA, please read the AFRINIC Bylaws and specifically 
article 3.4 sections (i) and (iii).



The constitution is clear on what the objectives of AFRINIC are among others. 
The RSA and ratified policies regulate the said management of Internet number 
resources.



Noah

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021, 19:54 Paul Wollner, 
 wrote:

Hello Everyone,



It is vital to note that the RSA is not the document to regulate the resource 
usage. If this is the case then, the entire bottom up policy will be obsolete! 
The RSA can easily be amended by AFRINIC which allows and permit an arbitrary 
form of changes being made neglecting the proper PDP flow. This form of 
suggestion and idea is dangerous as it allows AFRINIC absolute control.



We need to be mindful with what we say especially if we tend to argue for the 
sake of bashing certain individuals as this have the tendency to endanger the 
very basis that AFRINIC exists on, which is the bottom up policy.



The fact remains that the RSA is a mere contractual document which establishes 
the relationship between the Parties which are party to the document. In 
essence, any issues on ground of technicality is amendable and can be made 
right with proper resolution of the Parties and it is not the end of the world.



The above also encompass the mere technicalities including the change of 
nature. So long as the change of nature does not violate any written laws and 
are not used for crime, it should be permitted and AFRINIC should not be 
allowed to arbitrarily govern this, this will allow too much power upon them 
and, unfortunately, these recent weeks we can see clearly that at times the 
decisions that were made by AFRINIC are not the best.



Imagine changing the nature of one’s business and just by that your entire 
allocation is being revoked for that very reason. It doesn’t make any practical 
sense.



Regards

Paul









 On Tue, 09 Feb 2021 23:21:39 +0200 Noah  wrote 





On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 4:47 PM Owen DeLong  wrote:

Originally, the space was used for some rather specialized connectivity 
services. Due to changes in the market and the legal environment, those 
services became less lucrative and the organization pivoted. 



Hardly any organization that has been in this business for more than 10 years 
is using every address they have for the exact purpose for which it was 
approved. 



None the less, delegating addresses to customers for their legitimate use as 
unique internet addresses remains the primary purpose of any IR whether it be 
regional, national, or local. 



There exists no requirement in policy that such delegations involve 
connectivity services. In fact, no RIR provides connectivity services to any of 
the organizations it issues addresses to. 



Certainly, if such a requirement were intended, it could have been written into 
the policy. 



Owen





Hi Owen,



Firstly, thank you so much for making more explicit the evidence which has been 
discussed here by the community since 2014.



IPv4 Addresses must be used for the purpose they were requested for and leasing 
is not allowed. 



I also find your point about RIR not providing connectivity services to 
organizations it issues addresses to, inappropriate because you know very well 
the mandate, role and the responsibilities of entities in the current Internet 
number registry hierarchy.



Noah 



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

Hi Paul,

Before we dwell into the RSA, please read the AFRINIC Bylaws and
specifically article 3.4 sections (i) and (iii).

The constitution is clear on what the objectives of AFRINIC are among
others. The RSA and ratified policies regulate the said management of
Internet number resources.

Noah

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021, 19:54 Paul Wollner, 
wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> It is vital to note that the RSA is not the document to regulate the
> resource usage. If this is the case then, the entire bottom up policy will
> be obsolete! The RSA can easily be amended by AFRINIC which allows and
> permit an arbitrary form of changes being made neglecting the proper PDP
> flow. This form of suggestion and idea is dangerous as it allows AFRINIC
> absolute control.
>
> We need to be mindful with what we say especially if we tend to argue for
> the sake of bashing certain individuals as this have the tendency to
> endanger the very basis that AFRINIC exists on, which is the bottom up
> policy.
>
> The fact remains that the RSA is a mere contractual document which
> establishes the relationship between the Parties which are party to the
> document. In essence, any issues on ground of technicality is amendable and
> can be made right with proper resolution of the Parties and it is not the
> end of the world.
>
> The above also encompass the mere technicalities including the change of
> nature. So long as the change of nature does not violate any written laws
> and are not used for crime, it should be permitted and AFRINIC should not
> be allowed to arbitrarily govern this, this will allow too much power upon
> them and, unfortunately, these recent weeks we can see clearly that at
> times the decisions that were made by AFRINIC are not the best.
>
> Imagine changing the nature of one’s business and just by that your entire
> allocation is being revoked for that very reason. It doesn’t make any
> practical sense.
>
> Regards
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Tue, 09 Feb 2021 23:21:39 +0200 *Noah  >* wrote 
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 4:47 PM Owen DeLong  wrote:
>
> Originally, the space was used for some rather specialized connectivity
> services. Due to changes in the market and the legal environment, those
> services became less lucrative and the organization pivoted.
>
> Hardly any organization that has been in this business for more than 10
> years is using every address they have for the exact purpose for which it
> was approved.
>
> None the less, delegating addresses to customers for their legitimate use
> as unique internet addresses remains the primary purpose of any IR whether
> it be regional, national, or local.
>
> There exists no requirement in policy that such delegations involve
> connectivity services. In fact, no RIR provides connectivity services to
> any of the organizations it issues addresses to.
>
> Certainly, if such a requirement were intended, it could have been written
> into the policy.
>
> Owen
>
>
> Hi Owen,
>
>
> Firstly, thank you so much for making more explicit the evidence which has
> been discussed here by the community since 2014.
>
>
> IPv4 Addresses must be used for the purpose they were requested for and 
> *leasing
> is not allowed*.
>
>
> I also find your point about RIR not providing connectivity services to
> organizations it issues addresses to, inappropriate because you know very
> well the mandate, role and the responsibilities of entities in the current
> Internet number registry hierarchy.
>
>
> Noah
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Paul Wollner]

Hello Everyone,



It is vital to note that the RSA is not the document to regulate the resource 
usage. If this is the case then, the entire bottom up policy will be obsolete! 
The RSA can easily be amended by AFRINIC which allows and permit an arbitrary 
form of changes being made neglecting the proper PDP flow. This form of 
suggestion and idea is dangerous as it allows AFRINIC absolute control.



We need to be mindful with what we say especially if we tend to argue for the 
sake of bashing certain individuals as this have the tendency to endanger the 
very basis that AFRINIC exists on, which is the bottom up policy.



The fact remains that the RSA is a mere contractual document which establishes 
the relationship between the Parties which are party to the document. In 
essence, any issues on ground of technicality is amendable and can be made 
right with proper resolution of the Parties and it is not the end of the world.



The above also encompass the mere technicalities including the change of 
nature. So long as the change of nature does not violate any written laws and 
are not used for crime, it should be permitted and AFRINIC should not be 
allowed to arbitrarily govern this, this will allow too much power upon them 
and, unfortunately, these recent weeks we can see clearly that at times the 
decisions that were made by AFRINIC are not the best.



Imagine changing the nature of one’s business and just by that your entire 
allocation is being revoked for that very reason. It doesn’t make any practical 
sense.



Regards

Paul









 On Tue, 09 Feb 2021 23:21:39 +0200 Noah  wrote 





On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 4:47 PM Owen DeLong  wrote:

Originally, the space was used for some rather specialized connectivity 
services. Due to changes in the market and the legal environment, those 
services became less lucrative and the organization pivoted. 



Hardly any organization that has been in this business for more than 10 years 
is using every address they have for the exact purpose for which it was 
approved. 



None the less, delegating addresses to customers for their legitimate use as 
unique internet addresses remains the primary purpose of any IR whether it be 
regional, national, or local. 



There exists no requirement in policy that such delegations involve 
connectivity services. In fact, no RIR provides connectivity services to any of 
the organizations it issues addresses to. 



Certainly, if such a requirement were intended, it could have been written into 
the policy. 



Owen





Hi Owen,



Firstly, thank you so much for making more explicit the evidence which has been 
discussed here by the community since 2014.



IPv4 Addresses must be used for the purpose they were requested for and leasing 
is not allowed. 



I also find your point about RIR not providing connectivity services to 
organizations it issues addresses to, inappropriate because you know very well 
the mandate, role and the responsibilities of entities in the current Internet 
number registry hierarchy.



Noah 



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021, 14:56 AFRINIC Communication,  wrote:

> Dear Frank,
>
> AFRINIC  has not approved any application for IP space for the purpose of
> leasing despite having received such requests.
>

Has AFRINIC endeavoured to check if IPv4 address space that it allocated to
its members for purposes of numbering infrastructure in AFRICA is not being
leased instead?

Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 4:47 PM Owen DeLong  wrote:

> Originally, the space was used for some rather specialized connectivity
> services. Due to changes in the market and the legal environment, those
> services became less lucrative and the organization pivoted.
>
> Hardly any organization that has been in this business for more than 10
> years is using every address they have for the exact purpose for which it
> was approved.
>
> None the less, delegating addresses to customers for their legitimate use
> as unique internet addresses remains the primary purpose of any IR whether
> it be regional, national, or local.
>
> There exists no requirement in policy that such delegations involve
> connectivity services. In fact, no RIR provides connectivity services to
> any of the organizations it issues addresses to.
>
> Certainly, if such a requirement were intended, it could have been written
> into the policy.
>
> Owen
>

Hi Owen,


Firstly, thank you so much for making more explicit the evidence which has
been discussed here by the community since 2014.


IPv4 Addresses must be used for the purpose they were requested for
and *leasing
is not allowed*.


I also find your point about RIR not providing connectivity services to
organizations it issues addresses to, inappropriate because you know very
well the mandate, role and the responsibilities of entities in the current
Internet number registry hierarchy.


Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Frank Habicht]

Hi,

On 05/02/2021 16:43, Owen DeLong wrote:
> Originally, the space was used for some rather specialized connectivity
> services. Due to changes in the market and the legal environment, those
> services became less lucrative and the organization pivoted. 
> 
> Hardly any organization that has been in this business for more than 10
> years is using every address they have for the exact purpose for which
> it was approved. 

True.
And i just stumbled upon many sections in
https://afrinic.net/membership/agreements?lang=en#rsa
where this is not permitted [1]
So I view this as you advocating a "flexible" interpretation...

> None the less, delegating addresses to customers for their legitimate
> use as unique internet addresses remains the primary purpose of any IR
> whether it be regional, national, or local. 

here comes the danger of mixing LIR and non-LIR ...

> There exists no requirement in policy that such delegations involve
> connectivity services.

For LIR: [1]

> In fact, no RIR provides connectivity services to
> any of the organizations it issues addresses to. 

I think noone was talking about RIRs [2]

> Certainly, if such a requirement were intended, it could have been
> written into the policy. 

... and here I see a more strict interpretation
  ^^

Frank

[1]
The Applicant hereby irrevocably:
(i) Commits itself to using the services solely for the purpose for
which it was requested.

[2]
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003901.html

> FWIW, an LIR in Afrinic documentation means: “Any Network Operator
> that provides Internet services to distinct end-users and end-sites.”
> In the same context, LIRs are allocated IPv4 space of type Provider
> Aggregatable “Allocated PA”.
Yes.
(that's your paragraph I responded to)

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Owen DeLong]

Originally, the space was used for some rather specialized connectivity 
services. Due to changes in the market and the legal environment, those 
services became less lucrative and the organization pivoted. 

Hardly any organization that has been in this business for more than 10 years 
is using every address they have for the exact purpose for which it was 
approved. 

None the less, delegating addresses to customers for their legitimate use as 
unique internet addresses remains the primary purpose of any IR whether it be 
regional, national, or local. 

There exists no requirement in policy that such delegations involve 
connectivity services. In fact, no RIR provides connectivity services to any of 
the organizations it issues addresses to. 

Certainly, if such a requirement were intended, it could have been written into 
the policy. 

Owen


> On Feb 5, 2021, at 04:39, Arnaud AMELINA  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> AfriNIC staff: has any LIR applied for IP space for the purpose of
>> *leasing* and received IP address space?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Frank
>> 
>> __
> 
> 
> Question très importante, et espérons une réponse adéquat de la part du STAFF 
> d'AFRINIC. 
> 
> Cordialement 
> 
> Very important question, hope an adequate response from AFRINIC STAFF. 
> 
> Regards 
> 
> --
> Arnaud 
> 
>> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Arnaud AMELINA]

>
> AfriNIC staff: has any LIR applied for IP space for the purpose of
> *leasing* and received IP address space?
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
>
> __
>

Question très importante, et espérons une réponse adéquat de la part du
STAFF d'AFRINIC.

Cordialement

Very important question, hope an adequate response from AFRINIC STAFF.

Regards

--
Arnaud


>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Frank Habicht]

Owen???

On 05/02/2021 14:53, AFRINIC Communication wrote:
> Dear Frank,
> 
> AFRINIC  has not approved any application for IP space for the
> purpose of leasing despite having received such requests.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ashil
> 
>> On 05/02/2021 03:56, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>> Yes. It does not specify the type of internet services. Are you
>>> arguing that the leasing of address blocks is not an internet
>>> service?


Thanks Ashil!

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[AFRINIC Communication]

Dear Frank,

AFRINIC  has not approved any application for IP space for the purpose of 
leasing despite having received such requests.

Regards,

Ashil

> On 5 Feb 2021, at 09:07, Frank Habicht  wrote:
> 
> Hi Owen,
> 
> On 05/02/2021 03:56, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 2, 2021, at 4:29 AM, Noah >> > wrote:
> 
>>> FWIW, an LIR in Afrinic documentation means: “*Any Network Operator
>>> that provides Internet services to distinct end-users and end-sites.*”
>>> In the same context, LIRs are allocated  IPv4 space of type Provider
>>> Aggregatable “Allocated PA”.
>> 
>> Yes. It does not specify the type of internet services. Are you arguing
>> that the leasing of address blocks is not an internet service?
> 
> My initial 'gut' response was "YES" - leasing is not a service as
> intended. But: I didn't check the scripture, IANAL, and I don't want to
> get into *that* discussion.
> 
> But I have just one question:
> 
> Is *leasing* the kind of use, for which the IP space was applied for and
> justified?
> 
> 
> AfriNIC staff: has any LIR applied for IP space for the purpose of
> *leasing* and received IP address space?
> 
> Thanks,
> Frank
> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Frank Habicht]

Hi Owen,

On 05/02/2021 03:56, Owen DeLong wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 2, 2021, at 4:29 AM, Noah > > wrote:

>> FWIW, an LIR in Afrinic documentation means: “*Any Network Operator
>> that provides Internet services to distinct end-users and end-sites.*”
>> In the same context, LIRs are allocated  IPv4 space of type Provider
>> Aggregatable “Allocated PA”.
> 
> Yes. It does not specify the type of internet services. Are you arguing
> that the leasing of address blocks is not an internet service?

My initial 'gut' response was "YES" - leasing is not a service as
intended. But: I didn't check the scripture, IANAL, and I don't want to
get into *that* discussion.

But I have just one question:

Is *leasing* the kind of use, for which the IP space was applied for and
justified?


AfriNIC staff: has any LIR applied for IP space for the purpose of
*leasing* and received IP address space?

Thanks,
Frank

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Owen DeLong]

> On Feb 2, 2021, at 4:29 AM, Noah  wrote:
> 
> Owen,
> 
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 8:48 PM Owen DeLong  > wrote:
>> What is more baffling is that its a lot of space and guess what, the members 
>> doesn't seem to have a known ASN.
> 
> Please point me to the section of the CPM which requires a member holding 
> IPv4 number resources to have an ASN.
> 
> The CPM does not impose that a member holding IPv4 should have an ASN since 
> there are valid scenarios for not having an ASN.

Then I am confused by your above quoted statement that it is “baffling...that 
the members[sic] doesn’t seem to have a known ASN”.

If you recognize that there are valid scenarios for having space and no ASN, 
how is this baffling?

> FWIW, an LIR in Afrinic documentation means: “Any Network Operator that 
> provides Internet services to distinct end-users and end-sites.” In the same 
> context, LIRs are allocated  IPv4 space of type Provider Aggregatable 
> “Allocated PA”.

Yes. It does not specify the type of internet services. Are you arguing that 
the leasing of address blocks is not an internet service? I think there are 
many lessees on the internet that would differ with you about that. There are 
many types of internet services that are not necessarily “internet connectivity 
services”. Surely if the intent were to specify only internet connectivity 
services, then the documentation would say specifically that, no?

> While an LIR may not have the need to run BGP and express unique routing 
> policy distinct from the ones of its providers, there is a requirement to 
> operate a network and offer internet services which use the IP addresses 
> assigned to the end-users. Such a scenario is easily traceable and provable.

There is? Please show me where this requirement is codified. Please show me 
where the requirement to operate a network is tied to the offering of internet 
services.

> This is not the case here, where an LIR does not run a network to serve the 
> users to whom IP addresses are assigned to. We’ve seen LoA's and hijacking 
> and misappropriation of the ASNs by those trying to use these "assignments". 
> The evidence is publicly available.

No, sir, you have not. You have seen LOAs for a valid leasing of address space. 
You have seen erroneous origination from an ASN by one customer on one 
occasion. Hijacking is a deliberate act, not an erroneous misconfiguration.

> Maybe the conversation to have is about the type of network and services this 
> LIR is operating and offering, to determine if they need an ASN or not.

The failure here is yours. Your failure to recognize that there are internet 
services which are possible outside of the offering of internet connection 
services and that such services are not prohibited by current policy. If you 
wish to mandate that IP addresses may only be used in providing internet 
connectivity services, then feel free to submit a proposal to do so, but as the 
current CPM reads, no such requirement exists and it is inappropriate for you 
to hold others accountable to the assumptions you read into the policy which 
are not, in fact, contained in the wording of the policy.

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Owen DeLong]

> On Feb 4, 2021, at 9:24 AM, Noah  wrote:
> 
> Owen,
> 
> On Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 20:48 Owen DeLong,  > wrote:
> 
> If you believe that Larus has committed number resource fraud, then present 
> your evidence to AfriNIC and let them investigate.
> 
> The evidences continue to be shown and discussed on this list and others 
> since 2014. 

You keep saying that, but I’ve seen lots and lots of allegations with no actual 
evidence that they committed resource fraud.

> I assume AFRINIC and all other interested parties are listening and can see 
> data from previous and recent public discussions and determine what they have 
> to do.

If you can provide specific pointers to actual evidence, I’m happy to review 
them, but a blanket reference to 6+ years of multiple mailing lists isn’t 
proof, it’s a wild goose chase and I have no intention of engaging in such a 
futile exercise.

> The Internet community shall continue to play its part by ringing the bell, 
> providing data and discussing what is happening.

Data is good. Allegations are not. If you have data, then by all means, let’s 
see it. So far, you sound like Trump… Lots of allegations and precious few 
facts to back them up.

> We are all custodians of these public resources.

Yes and as such, we owe them a duty to factual reporting of abuse and fraud and 
should refrain from baseless accusations.

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

Owen,

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 20:48 Owen DeLong,  wrote:

>
> If you believe that Larus has committed number resource fraud, then
> present your evidence to AfriNIC and let them investigate.
>

The evidences continue to be shown and discussed on this list and others
since 2014.

I assume AFRINIC and all other interested parties are listening and can see
data from previous and recent public discussions and determine what they
have to do.

The Internet community shall continue to play its part by ringing the bell,
providing data and discussing what is happening.

We are all custodians of these public resources.

Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

Owen,

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 8:48 PM Owen DeLong  wrote:

> What is more baffling is that its a lot of space and guess what, the
> members doesn't seem to have a known ASN.
>
>
> Please point me to the section of the CPM which requires a member holding
> IPv4 number resources to have an ASN.
>

The CPM does not impose that a member holding IPv4 should have an ASN since
there are valid scenarios for not having an ASN.


FWIW, an LIR in Afrinic documentation means: “*Any Network Operator that
provides Internet services to distinct end-users and end-sites.*” In the
same context, LIRs are allocated  IPv4 space of type Provider Aggregatable
“Allocated PA”.


While an LIR may not have the need to run BGP and express unique routing
policy distinct from the ones of its providers, there is a requirement to
operate a network and offer internet services which use the IP addresses
assigned to the end-users. Such a scenario is easily traceable and provable.


This is not the case here, where an LIR does not run a network to serve the
users to whom IP addresses are assigned to. We’ve seen LoA's and hijacking
and misappropriation of the ASNs by those trying to use these
"assignments". The evidence is publicly available.


Maybe the conversation to have is about the type of network and services
this LIR is operating and offering, to determine if they need an ASN or not.


Cheers,

Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Owen DeLong]

Normally, I wouldn’t do this as I consider it impolite to post someone’s 
private message without their consent. However, I consider Mr. Cohen’s 
complaint that he’s unable to say this publicly to be his tacit approval to my 
posting it. Below please find an email I received from Mr. Cohen and my 
response.

> On Jan 11, 2021, at 9:37 AM, Elad Cohen  wrote:
> 
> You are a very big hero Owen to write lies in Afrinic community-discuss when 
> I cannot reply to you in the mailing lists due to the complaints of you and 
> your friends.

Clearly you have replied to me and I have made no complaint against you to list 
administrators.

> Let me remind to you and to everyone that you admit to receive money from a 
> business competitor of mine and you also wrote that "there is nothing to see 
> here" (in community-discuss mailing list) regarding complaints towards your 
> employer that received /11's for "free", your employer also want to receive 
> my legacy netblocks for "free" from Afrinic?

I never denied that I received money from Larus. If Larus is your competitor, 
then so be it. To the best of my knowledge, Larus runs a legitimate operation 
in compliance with policies as written.

To date, Larus has never been more than a client of my consulting services, 
never my employer, so your referring to (I presume Larus) above as my employer 
is a typical example of your rather loose association with factual reality.

To the best of my knowledge, Larus is not currently pursuing any additional 
allocations or assignments from AfriNIC at this time. Further, to the best of 
my knowledge, they never received space from AfriNIC for free and have always 
been a paying member operating under an RSA for their resources. Can you make 
the same claim?

Finally, whether resource registration rights were obtained directly from a 
previous registry for free, obtained from an RIR with appropriate fees paid, or 
obtained through a legitimate transfer, they should still all be subject to the 
same policies and administrative process. As such, I’m having trouble 
understanding how your constant reference to having paid (presumably some third 
party) for the resources becomes AfriNIC’s problem or responsibility or in any 
way is material to your argument here.

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Owen DeLong]

Could the list administrators please take appropriate action regarding this 
unsolicited commercial advertisement which I believe violates the list ToU/CoC?

Much appreciated.

Owen


> On Jan 4, 2021, at 6:24 AM, Ron via Community-Discuss 
>  wrote:
> 
> Request to all AFRINIC members whose resources are confiscated by AFRINIC and 
> to those who are having legal issues with AFRINIC.
> Our experienced legal team can help you recover all your resources.
> Litigation is our expertise and we give 100% guarantee on our cases.
> No recovery of resources = NO FEE.
> No advance payment or retainer fee.
> ___
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> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Owen DeLong]

> There are many reasons to be "conservative" about the world's dwindling
> supply of IPv4 addresses.  Like petrochemicals extracted from the earth,
> the stuff may flow freely and abundantly now, even to the point where
> we all feel free to squander what remains, but someday our profligate
> human nature will, I'm sure, come back to haunt us, and we will wake up
> with a hell of a hangover.

Like the transition from fossil fuels towards electricity as a primary means
of energy transfer and storage (and the related transition to renewable
sources of energy for production of electricity), there is an in-progress
transition from scarce and dysfunctional IPv4 to abundant and slightly
less dysfunctional IPv6. While some level of conservation is warranted
in both cases (In the case of fossil fuels more due to the damaging
nature of their use than due to the shortage of supply), the simple reality
is that limiting consumption is not necessarily conservation. It might just
be a form of rationing.

> Ardent proponents of IPv6 will no doubt disagree with this view, but I do
> believe that their views are still influenced more by hope than by current
> day-to-day reality on the ground.  The proof of IPv4's ongoing importance
> is visible everwhere, for those that would but look for it.  Speaking from
> my own direct experience, of which I have a great deal, 99 spammers out
> of 100 still to this day rely exclusively on IPv4 for the simple and
> obvious reason that this maximizes their connectivity to the places they
> wish to spam.

In fact, I receive far more than 1% (nearly 45%) of my SPAM over IPv6 these 
days.
I don’t know to what extent that represents which spammers (not something
I’ve really even tried to research), but I have to believe that it very likely
represents more than 1% of spammers. (though it is technically possible
that 45% of my SPAM comes from the very effective 1% of spammers
while the other 55% is distributed among 99% of far less effective spammers
still using IPv4 exclusively). In the latter case, it would certainly seem to
discredit the argument that IPv4-only is the most effective way to spam.

> And by the way, yes, I do believe that I slipped a digit when I was trying
> to calculate the total value of all of the IPv4 address space that was
> gifted to AFRINIC by the other RIRs at the time of its inception, and
> that a more accurate assesment of the total current open market value of
> these assets likely exceeds $2.5 billion USD.  And rather humorously, the
> various RIRs, including but not limited to AFRINIC have somehow persuaded,
> and continue to persuade their respective financial auditors to simply
> close their eyes and look the other way whenever the subject of these most
> valuable assets comes up.  You can see this for yourself in past AFRINIC
> auditor-generated financial statments, e.g. the one I looked at from 2015.
> Nowhere are these most valuable assets of AFRINIC or the other RIRs ever
> even considered to be assets... a most astonishing example of what would
> appear on the face of it to be gross professional malpractice on the part
> of the auditors, the size of which dwarfs even the national budgets of
> several entire non-trivial countries.

The address space was not gifted or even transferred. The authority of
registration is what was transferred. The RIR system operates by guaranteeing
uniqueness of registration by providing exclusivity through mechanisms which
intend to ensure that each address is tied to a specific RIR which has the
exclusive and sole authority and responsibility for maintaining the registration
data for that particular address.

The RIRs do not own address space and neither do the registrants. Address
space is merely integers. Claiming to own 5 is facially absurd as is claiming
ownership of any other integer.

What is traded when people talk about buying/selling IP addresses is not the
addresses themselves, but the right to update the registration database in the
RIRs.

The true beauty of the system is that the RIRs are not magical. They are not
legal authorities. Their authority is held in check by the fact that the value 
of
the registry system is limited by the willingness of ISPs to treat that data as
an authoritative set of rights to use the numbers for a particular purpose. 
Namely
uniquely addressing systems on a collectively administered set of interconnected
networks commonly referred to as “the Internet”.

If an ISP chooses to disregard the RIRs and start issuing random numbers
to their customers and announcing them to those willing to peer with them,
the only thing that stops that ISP is not a legal challenge, but the fact that
the set of networks willing to peer with them will shrink to meaningless and
the fact that the networks that remain willing to peer with them will at least
have those announcements ignored/blocked by the vast majority of their peers.

It is failure to understand these details of how the RIR system works and

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Owen DeLong]

> Since we dont have purview if these litigations, we can only imagine the 
> amount of fraud that has been going on under the carpet.
> 
> By the way, Cohen was wonderibg why you dont also talk about some other 
> AFRINIC net blocks that my good friend Owen once claimed that there is 
> nothing to see there even though most of them are being originated in the USA.

I must ask, Noah, why you are connecting Cohen with the address blocks you are 
questioning from before?

There was truly nothing to see there and your original complaint was _NOT_ 
about the address blocks, but about an error which caused your ASN to 
erroneously appear as an originator of the BGP advertisements in question. As 
soon as that problem was called to the attention of the resource holder, the 
announcements were stopped posthaste and that should have been the end of it.

Instead of contacting the resource holder directly using the available whois 
information, however, you chose to make a public spectacle on this mailing list 
and when it was pointed out that this was the result of a simple error made by 
a 3rd party two-steps removed, you still wanted spectacle instead of 
resolution. Nonetheless, you got resolution in addition to some of the 
spectacle you desired. It appears you are still unsatisfied with the amount of 
spectacle you were able to achieve and you now try to conflate that issue with 
Mr. Cohen’s situation even though there is no connection whatsoever (at least 
to the best of my knowledge) between Mr. Cohen and Larus.

> What is more baffling is that its a lot of space and guess what, the members 
> doesn't seem to have a known ASN.

Please point me to the section of the CPM which requires a member holding IPv4 
number resources to have an ASN.
If you can’t do that, then please explain what you are on about here because it 
makes little sense to me.

> To paraphrase Cohen;  What is that all about?

If you believe that Larus has committed number resource fraud, then present 
your evidence to AfriNIC and let them investigate.
If you believe that Larus has violated AfriNIC number resource policy or their 
RSA, then present your evidence to AfriNIC and let them investigate.

If you have no evidence, then perhaps you could consider ending this trolling 
of the community trying to stir up trouble where you have no evidence of 
wrongdoing.

Perhaps we need to expand the CoC to prohibit acts of blatant demagoguery 
intended to foment negative attitudes towards members of the community.

> Frankly, the fact that Mr. Cohen has not already been shown the door
> entirely, with respect to the mailing lists *and* with respect to the
> WHOIS data base is beyond my poor ability to fathom.
> 
> AFRINIC has its own internal processes, and its a matter of time. Eddy has 
> periodically updated the community to your dissatisfaction.
> 
> More than you, the community anxiously awaits the end of this which must also 
> ensure that folks are held accountable because only a fool would think all 
> this just happened by itself.

I find it very amusing, Noah, that you are able in the same email to criticize 
the conduct of Mr. Cohen and RFG while failing to recognize that you are doing 
essentially the same thing in bringing up a long-settled issue over a 
configuration error trying to make more of it than it was.

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Owen DeLong]

> On Oct 26, 2020, at 12:30 , Elad Cohen  wrote:
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> AfriNIC are trying to impose all of their adopted policies on any legacy 
> resource and on any legacy resource holder, even ones that didn't sign any 
> RSA. In the legal case that I initiated.

This is appropriate. The RSA is a useful document spelling out the rights and 
responsibilities of AfriNIC customers who are entitled to services from AfriNIC.

If you didn’t sign an RSA, then you’re not a customer and anything AfriNIC does 
for you is essentially a gracious favor, not something you are entitled to.

The lack of an RSA does not entitle you to violate the policies set by the 
community for the administration of number resource registrations.

> AfriNIC, including the CEO of AfriNIC are hiding it from the community. 
> AFRINIC CEO is hiding it in his latest report as well when he linked in it to 
> the "Legacy Resource Holders" (https://afrinic.net/membership/legacy-resource 
> ) while in the legal case 
> AfriNIC are secretly and hiddenly trying to impose all the adopted policies 
> (that are contractual in RSA) on any legacy resource holder that didn't sign 
> an RSA.

There’s nothing secret or hidden about it, this is the expected result. The 
policies are mentioned in the RSA, but they are not limited to the RSA. They 
are the policies set by the community for how AfriNIC is expected to administer 
the registration of number resources that are under AfriNIC administration as 
part of a cooperating regional internet registry system.

If you didn’t sign any sort of agreement with AfriNIC, then I question where 
you think you obtained any sort of entitlement to AfriNIC services whatsoever, 
let alone entitlement to those services while not complying with the policies 
by which they are expected to be administered.

> If AfriNIC will win the legal case - it will mean legacy netblocks are no 
> longer legacy, and that there are obligations between legacy resource holders 
> to AfriNIC and that if AfriNIC decide so then they can take legacy netblocks 
> and they can delete them and they will be able to legally decide whatever 
> they will want regarding any legacy netblock.

No sir, you are mistaken here. There has never been any such thing as legacy 
net blocks. There are only legacy registrations. For the sake of continuity and 
sane operation of the internet, holders of legacy registrations have generally 
been allowed to preserve their reservations without contractual obligation on 
the part of the RIRs. This also means that said resource holders have no 
obligation to the RIR, but since you’re depending on the RIR doing you a favor 
to maintain your registration, it seems to me that there’s no obligation on 
their part to maintain your registration if you refuse to comply with the 
policies set by the community for managing that registration.

> I also would like to mention one more thing, regarding the statement of 
> AfriNIC CEO to the community on 31th of Janaury 2020: 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-January/003458.html
>  
> 
> Regarding the sentence: "We are also ensuring that the current holder/contact 
> of the resources are provided with the opportunity of proving their 
> ownership" - AfriNIC CEO lied to the community here because my email replies 
> to AfriNIC were completely ignored (the reason known to me now is because 
> there was an "email forwarder" set and the replies came from my main email 
> address, with the correspondence of AfriNIC, just like with any "email 
> forwarding" functionality). While on other occasions AfriNIC didn't ignore 
> email messages coming from recipients after "email forwarding”.

There’s just no way to parse that into any sort of actionable information.

> AfriNIC deleted my netblocks that I purchased legally after they lied to the 
> community according to the above sentence, and after they received more than 
> 30+ email notification over a period of years to their "notify:" 
> hostmas...@afrinic.net email address regarding 
> them.

When you say that you purchased these net blocks legally, you’re going to have 
to clarify what you mean here. Purchased from whom? What process did you go 
through to transfer the registration rights to those net blocks with the 
respective RIR? Did you sign a contract with the RIR obligating said RIR to 
provide you services? Did you pay fees to said RIR in the process? If not, then 
what makes you think you are entitled to some form of service from said RIR? 
What contract obligates them to do anything for you?

> Just one more point, nobody in the community is asking regarding all the 
> non-legacy netblocks that were spread over for "free", including /11's ... 
> when there was also a data loss ... only the legacy netblocks of me which I 
> purchased lega

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Arnaud AMELINA]

I would just offer community consultation..
If you think AFRINIC is misbehaving, prove the legitimacy of your rights to
use the delegated ressources or your control over the legacy resources and
the community will help address your case.

It should be as simple as that.

Regards

!!! *Happy and Wonderful New Year  To All *!!!

--
Arnaud

Le lun. 4 janv. 2021 à 14:27, Ron via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> a écrit :

> Request to all AFRINIC members whose resources are confiscated by AFRINIC
> and to those who are having legal issues with AFRINIC.
> Our experienced legal team can help you recover all your resources.
> Litigation is our expertise and we give 100% guarantee on our cases.
> No recovery of resources = NO FEE.
> No advance payment or retainer fee.
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Ron via Community-Discuss]

Request to all AFRINIC members whose resources are confiscated by AFRINIC and 
to those who are having legal issues with AFRINIC.
Our experienced legal team can help you recover all your resources.
Litigation is our expertise and we give 100% guarantee on our cases.
No recovery of resources = NO FEE.
No advance payment or retainer fee.___
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Nick Nora via Community-Discuss]

Elad you are played by Ronald aka Steve Linford. Afrinic community is wisely 
social engineered and is under heavy influence of Spamhaus.org 
You need to keep your cool while dealing with Ronald aka Steve Linford.
Afrinic has no clue what is going on its mailing lists.
All the post of Ronald and his side kick Noah are to attack their enemies.
Ronald = Spamhaus = Steve Linford.
Steve Linford has picked this platform to attack and destroy his enemies 
because he has no other way to do it.
Those who do not know what is spamhaus.org or Steve linford or Ronald then read 
further.
Steve Linford and Elad Cohen have history and now their spat has reached 
Afrinic from Nanog.
Court case between Netstyle vs Afrinic is result of social engineering and 
tactics used by Steve linford aka Ronald.
Reason why Spamhaus.org or Stephen John Linford will not go to police against 
its enemies because police looking for him in few countries.
Has anyone ever seen Mafia boss going to police station to file complaint?
That is why Linford pick these platform to attack his enemies.
If anyone think Spamhaus.org is legit then they are naive. Try to reach them 
and you will not be able to reach. Spamhaus has formed complex structure to 
launder money via offshore entities to Europe. 
Request to everyone if Spamhaus.org is attacking your business then find him in 
France and Spain and use legal ways.
Do not do anything illegal or let them provoke you to do mistakes. 
Steve Linford has many properties in Europe all are bought by money laundering. 
Start with these two addresses and you will find more connections.

Linford Peters
Calle del Viol 31
07157 Andratx Illes Balears, 
Spain

85 Avenue du Rond Point
06480 La Colle-sur-Loup
France

File police complaint and report his crime to tax and revenue department in 
Spain and France. In complaint ask tax and revenue department to investigate 
the source of money Steve Linford used to buy these properties. 

Steve Linford and his long time partner Geraldine myra peters are compared to 
Bonnie and Clyde.
https://www.companydirectorcheck.com/geraldine-myra-peters
He has recently changed spamhaus.org address from Switzerland to Andorra for 
some reason.
Warning: Do not forget that you are dealing with white collar criminal Steve 
Linford and he is doing this blackmailing and extortion for years so please be 
careful.

Elad now let me address your concerns.
Afrinic is not mafia like Spamhaus. Afrinic is answerable to its members and 
for its action.

Question is how resources were given? 
If you have bought resources and you have proofs then you do not have to worry 
because without verification resources cannot be transferred.
Resource allocation and once resources are allocated then it is very complex to 
claim them by RIR. 
Read court cases in Europe and USA for IPv4 resources. 
Immediately file police complaint and let police investigate if you have done 
anything illegal.
Inform court that you have filed police complaint and let court  summon police 
to submit their investigation report.
Only valid agreement between you and Afrinic is signed RSA. Mailing list or 
spam generated by Steve Linford aka Ronald is of no use.
Ask Afrinic to prove your resources bought by you were illegally allocated and 
if they were illegally allocated then who was responsible.
In any case you own and should not be blamed for Afrinic internal issues. You 
can also demand court damages based on the future value of ipv4 say USD40 per 
ip in 4 years. Afrinic has around 6 million in their bank account and they have 
to declare bankrupt if you win case.
Ask Afrinic how many people are involved in making decision for any resources 
allocation bigger than /19.
Ipv4 resource allocation is not one person job in Afrinic.
You have not robbed Afrinic and not stolen the resources and if they were 
allocated to you then they are yours. 
Don't know how many ipv4 resource you have but ask court to check Cloud 
Innovations Ltd resources and ask Afrinic to explain.
I suspect after few years there will another court case between Afrinic and 
cloud innovations.
Without approval from hostmaster to CEO no network bigger than /19 can be 
allocated.
So prove the right thing and you are all set.
Everyone thank you for reading and stay safe.

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message  Noah  wrote:

>Here is the deal and I beg to be corrected by folks to that end.
>
>>{... stuff about AFRINIC legal ownership snipped...}

I am not qualified to comment on any of this, as I have not read the
relevant documents, nor am I an attorney.  I can only repeat what
I already said about the ownership, which was the impression I was
given by other knowledgable sources.  (It may have been just plain
wrong.)

>> (I tried once to calculate the total current market value of all of the
>> IPv4 address space that AFRINIC had been gifted with at its inception.
>> The final esitimate I arrived at was something in excess of a quarter
>> of a billion dollars, USD.  But I think that I may have left out a extra
>> zero someplace, because a single AFRINIC member currently owns over $150
>> million USD worth of non-legacy AFRINIC IPv4 address space.)
>
>The very reason we must be conservative about how we manage those small
>ammounts of limited numbers IANA allocated to the region so as to advance
>internet infrastructure here.

There are many reasons to be "conservative" about the world's dwindling
supply of IPv4 addresses.  Like petrochemicals extracted from the earth,
the stuff may flow freely and abundantly now, even to the point where
we all feel free to squander what remains, but someday our profligate
human nature will, I'm sure, come back to haunt us, and we will wake up
with a hell of a hangover.

Ardent proponents of IPv6 will no doubt disagree with this view, but I do
believe that their views are still influenced more by hope than by current
day-to-day reality on the ground.  The proof of IPv4's ongoing importance
is visible everwhere, for those that would but look for it.  Speaking from
my own direct experience, of which I have a great deal, 99 spammers out
of 100 still to this day rely exclusively on IPv4 for the simple and
obvious reason that this maximizes their connectivity to the places they
wish to spam.  Also, Mr. Cohen, Mr. Uerlings, Mr. Byaruhanga and an
assortment of other Internet miscreants and ne'er-do-wells, who shall
for the time being remain nameless, have not gone to the extraordinary
lengths they have all gone to in order to gather unto themselves, by hook
or by crook, large hunks of IPv4 space just for their health.  For many
purposes, IPv4 is still the only game in town.

And by the way, yes, I do believe that I slipped a digit when I was trying
to calculate the total value of all of the IPv4 address space that was
gifted to AFRINIC by the other RIRs at the time of its inception, and
that a more accurate assesment of the total current open market value of
these assets likely exceeds $2.5 billion USD.  And rather humorously, the
various RIRs, including but not limited to AFRINIC have somehow persuaded,
and continue to persuade their respective financial auditors to simply
close their eyes and look the other way whenever the subject of these most
valuable assets comes up.  You can see this for yourself in past AFRINIC
auditor-generated financial statments, e.g. the one I looked at from 2015.
Nowhere are these most valuable assets of AFRINIC or the other RIRs ever
even considered to be assets... a most astonishing example of what would
appear on the face of it to be gross professional malpractice on the part
of the auditors, the size of which dwarfs even the national budgets of
several entire non-trivial countries.

Arguably, it is this sort of "fantasy accounting" that is at the heart of
many issues, both the AFRINIC thefts, which went on for years without any
of the accountants even noticing, and also the self-evident problem of
the well-connected in each region being granted valuable IPv4 allocations.=
..
sometimes huge ones... all via an entirely opaque process, while other
deserving candidates for that same space must go begging in the streets
for even small IPv4 allocations.

This sort of quiet and behind the scenes favoritism would have been both
fine and unremarkable in the old Soviet Union, but if we consider
ourselves to be capitalists, then this system cannot be viewed as anything
other than a quasi-governmental invitation to graft and influence peddling=
.
(And despite the selective blindness of the audittors, there is a LOT of
money at stake.)

But I digress.

>> Perhaps.  The whole matter is shrouded in what I feel is unfortunate
>> and actually ridiculous secrecy.  It seems that neither the AFRINIC
>> board, nor Eddy, nor the Governance Counsel... whose purpose apart
>> from the Board is still an utter mystery to me... nor even Mr. Cohen
>> himself feel in the least bit obliged to let anyone else in on the
>> Big Secret.
>
>I wont comment much here since the issue is before court and I have limit=
ed
>knowledge of the proceedings but I trust that the CEO and his team are
>working this.

Very nearly everyone has "limited knowledge of the proceedings'.  That
was my point.  One would think that the goals and purposes of one side
or the other in this epic conflict

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 3:26 PM Ronald F. Guilmette 
wrote:

> In message  aw0wv8q_z_yypfb...@mail.gmail.com>
> Noah  wrote:
>
> >> Mr. Cohen has declared war on AFRINIC.  He is currently pursuing that
> war,
> >> with no signs of retreating or giving up.
> >
> >AFRINIC is an institution and not someone's property even though some of
> >these folks think AFRINIC should just be a bookkeeper hence their
> arrogance.
>
> Not to quibble with you,


No biggy...


> but actually, as I understand it, the charter
> of AFRINIC says that the whole of AFRINIC, including but not limited to
> the vast and valuable set of -all- IP addresses that it has assigned
> to various members since its inception, as well as, of course, its
> current remaining free pool, are in fact the legal property of the
> AFRINIC board.
>

Here is the deal and I beg to be corrected by folks to that end.

The company is limited by guarantee. Resource members elect directors
across different regions that AFRINIC servers across AFRICA and its those
elected directors who are then registered as guarantors (registered
members) on behalf of the resource members. Therefore, the members are the
main shareholders and if you will in business terms, the real investors as
per the constitutions which we refer to as the bylaws. Like any other
entity there must be governance and the board of directors role is exactly
that and the members have elected different director over the years to take
care of AFRINIC Ltd fudiciary duties.



>
> Perhaps I have been misinformed about this.  If so I would be happy to
> be educated on this point.
>
>
I hope I tried above.


> (I tried once to calculate the total current market value of all of the
> IPv4 address space that AFRINIC had been gifted with at its inception.
> The final esitimate I arrived at was something in excess of a quarter
> of a billion dollars, USD.  But I think that I may have left out a extra
> zero someplace, because a single AFRINIC member currently owns over $150
> million USD worth of non-legacy AFRINIC IPv4 address space.)
>

The very reason we must be conservative about how we manage those small
ammounts of limited numbers IANA allocated to the region so as to advance
internet infrastructure here.


>
> >> The institution that is AFRINIC is being besieged, via lawsuit, by
> >> Mr. Cohen.  And on what basis?  For what crime?  We still have no
> >> idea what this is even all about, or what Mr. Cohen's actual claims are.
> >>
> >
> >Didn't he claim that he bought some IPs from some members in our region. I
> >assume those must be some of the IP's that have since been recovered by
> >AFRINIC based on your dossier.  Perhaps the recovery is his motivation for
> >the pupported lawsuit.
>
> Perhaps.  The whole matter is shrouded in what I feel is unfortunate
> and actually ridiculous secrecy.  It seems that neither the AFRINIC
> board, nor Eddy, nor the Governance Counsel... whose purpose apart
> from the Board is still an utter mystery to me... nor even Mr. Cohen
> himself feel in the least bit obliged to let anyone else in on the
> Big Secret.
>

I wont comment much here since the issue is before court and I have limited
knowledge of the proceedings but I trust that the CEO and his team are
working this.


>
> (I am being neither rude nor insulting to repeat these widely known
> facts here.  The status of both Mauritius and Seychelles as safe
> havens for all manner of crooked international dealings is something
> that anyone with a web browser can easily verify for himself or herself.)
>

In your humble opinion ofcourse :-) since I havent done my homework to that
effect.


>
> >AFRINIC doesn't have a policy for buying and selling IPs as Cohen claims
> >but until recently the community enacted an Intra-RIR policy to allow IPv4
> >transfers within the region with AFRINIC continuing to handle the
> >management of these resource transfers based in need-basis.
>
> Legacy blocks are special.  They were assigned before AFRINIC or the
> RIR system even existed, and they are thus not legally subject to its
> decisions or edicts.
>
> Mr. Cohen seems to be of the opinion that any -abandoned- legacy
> blocks thus have a legal status similar to abandoned sea vessels under
> international maritime law, i.e. as we here would say it "finders
> keepers".  Just as one might claim an abandoned sandwich sitting alone
> on a park bench, he believes that AFRINIC has no legal authority to
> prevent him from enjoying the various free meals he thinks he has
> found, or perhaps purchased, from other Intetrnet sharks who have
> also been on the lookout for free meals.
>
> I personally disagree with this view, and believe that it has no basis
> in law, anywhere.
>

The only way to fix this historical mistake especially for the AFRINIC
region is for us to ensure that legacy space looses the legacy status after
all the holders enjoy RIR services to the cost of resource members.


>
> >> I could and should perhaps also
> >> have me

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message 
Noah  wrote:

>> Mr. Cohen has declared war on AFRINIC.  He is currently pursuing that war,
>> with no signs of retreating or giving up.
>
>AFRINIC is an institution and not someone's property even though some of
>these folks think AFRINIC should just be a bookkeeper hence their arrogance.

Not to quibble with you, but actually, as I understand it, the charter
of AFRINIC says that the whole of AFRINIC, including but not limited to
the vast and valuable set of -all- IP addresses that it has assigned
to various members since its inception, as well as, of course, its
current remaining free pool, are in fact the legal property of the
AFRINIC board.

Perhaps I have been misinformed about this.  If so I would be happy to
be educated on this point.

(I tried once to calculate the total current market value of all of the
IPv4 address space that AFRINIC had been gifted with at its inception.
The final esitimate I arrived at was something in excess of a quarter
of a billion dollars, USD.  But I think that I may have left out a extra
zero someplace, because a single AFRINIC member currently owns over $150
million USD worth of non-legacy AFRINIC IPv4 address space.)

>> The institution that is AFRINIC is being besieged, via lawsuit, by
>> Mr. Cohen.  And on what basis?  For what crime?  We still have no
>> idea what this is even all about, or what Mr. Cohen's actual claims are.
>>
>
>Didn't he claim that he bought some IPs from some members in our region. I
>assume those must be some of the IP's that have since been recovered by
>AFRINIC based on your dossier.  Perhaps the recovery is his motivation for
>the pupported lawsuit.

Perhaps.  The whole matter is shrouded in what I feel is unfortunate
and actually ridiculous secrecy.  It seems that neither the AFRINIC
board, nor Eddy, nor the Governance Counsel... whose purpose apart
from the Board is still an utter mystery to me... nor even Mr. Cohen
himself feel in the least bit obliged to let anyone else in on the
Big Secret.

This kind of thing could only happen in... I'm sorry to have to say it,
but I have to... a backwards third-world country such as Mauritius,
where apparently it is the norm, rather than the exception, that all
matters under litigation are treated as secret.  Here in the United
States and in innumerable other civilized countries, court proceedings
and court filings are generally open to the public.  But not so in
Mauritius!  Nor, I gather in the Seychelles.  It would appear that
the governments in both places have a greater committment to protecting
crooked dealing and crooked dealers than they do to transparency,
open government, the public's right to know, or the rule of law.

This should actually come as a surprise to no one.  Both Mauritius and
Seychelles have well-earned international reputations as places for
crooks to hide their activities and assets, and neither national
government seems at all eager to dispense with the local revenue
streams that such trade, criminal though it may be, can and does
generate.

(I am being neither rude nor insulting to repeat these widely known
facts here.  The status of both Mauritius and Seychelles as safe
havens for all manner of crooked international dealings is something
that anyone with a web browser can easily verify for himself or herself.)

>AFRINIC doesn't have a policy for buying and selling IPs as Cohen claims
>but until recently the community enacted an Intra-RIR policy to allow IPv4
>transfers within the region with AFRINIC continuing to handle the
>management of these resource transfers based in need-basis.

Legacy blocks are special.  They were assigned before AFRINIC or the
RIR system even existed, and they are thus not legally subject to its
decisions or edicts.

Mr. Cohen seems to be of the opinion that any -abandoned- legacy
blocks thus have a legal status similar to abandoned sea vessels under
international maritime law, i.e. as we here would say it "finders
keepers".  Just as one might claim an abandoned sandwich sitting alone
on a park bench, he believes that AFRINIC has no legal authority to
prevent him from enjoying the various free meals he thinks he has
found, or perhaps purchased, from other Intetrnet sharks who have
also been on the lookout for free meals.

I personally disagree with this view, and believe that it has no basis
in law, anywhere.

>> I could and should perhaps also
>> have mentioned the case of the City of Cape Town's /16 block, and/or
>> the fact that Mr. Cohen, in -another- show of force and stupidity...
>
>  equally as brazen and ill-considered as his present vicious and baseless
>> legal attack on AFRINIC... also hired legal council in South Africa in a
>> vain and short-lived attempt to browbeat, harass, and extort the City
>> of Cape Town into giving him -their- rightful property (165.25.0.0/16).
>
>Since we dont have purview if these litigations, we can only imagine the
>amount of fraud that has been going on under the carpet.

To be clear, I have *

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

On Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 03:49 Ronald F. Guilmette, 
wrote:

> In message <05751329-1002-4a8c-9cb0-318882cb9...@me.com>,
> Noah,  wrote:
>
> >Let us have a civilized discourse for we are a polite community.
> >That is all am saying.
>
> Where were you during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870?
>

You cant surely ask posterity about the 19th century bro.

But history tells that my forefathers did well to defend themselves from
being dominated by some of those very folk.


> Mr. Cohen has declared war on AFRINIC.  He is currently pursuing that war,
> with no signs of retreating or giving up.
>

AFRINIC is an institution and not someone's property even though some of
these folks think AFRINIC should just be a bookkeeper hence their arrogance.

The RIR system is self organized and will stand tall.


> The institution that is AFRINIC is being besieged, via lawsuit, by
> Mr. Cohen.  And on what basis?  For what crime?  We still have no
> idea what this is even all about, or what Mr. Cohen's actual claims are.
>

Didn't he claim that he bought some IPs from some members in our region. I
assume those must be some of the IP's that have since been recovered by
AFRINIC based on your dossier.  Perhaps the recovery is his motivation for
the pupported lawsuit.

AFRINIC doesn't have a policy for buying and selling IPs as Cohen claims
but until recently the community enacted an Intra-RIR policy to allow IPv4
transfers within the region with AFRINIC continuing to handle the
management of these resource transfers based in need-basis.



> I could and should perhaps also
> have mentioned the case of the City of Cape Town's /16 block, and/or
> the fact that Mr. Cohen, in -another- show of force and stupidity...

equally as brazen and ill-considered as his present vicious and baseless
> legal attack on AFRINIC... also hired legal council in South Africa in a
> vain and short-lived attempt to browbeat, harass, and extort the City
> of Cape Town into giving him -their- rightful property (165.25.0.0/16).
>

Since we dont have purview if these litigations, we can only imagine the
amount of fraud that has been going on under the carpet.

By the way, Cohen was wonderibg why you dont also talk about some other
AFRINIC net blocks that my good friend Owen once claimed that there is
nothing to see there even though most of them are being originated in the
USA.

What is more baffling is that its a lot of space and guess what, the
members doesn't seem to have a known ASN.

To paraphrase Cohen;  What is that all about?



> Frankly, the fact that Mr. Cohen has not already been shown the door
> entirely, with respect to the mailing lists *and* with respect to the
> WHOIS data base is beyond my poor ability to fathom.
>

AFRINIC has its own internal processes, and its a matter of time. Eddy has
periodically updated the community to your dissatisfaction.

More than you, the community anxiously awaits the end of this which must
also ensure that folks are held accountable because only a fool would think
all this just happened by itself.

Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <05751329-1002-4a8c-9cb0-318882cb9...@me.com>, 
Noah,  wrote:

>Let us have a civilized discourse for we are a polite community. 
>That is all am saying.

Where were you during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870?

They could have used this bit of sage wisdom right around that time!
:-)

But seriously, I suspect that few on this mailing list have been involved
in actual litigation.  I have been, so I can speak to the nature of such
conflicts based on personal first-hand experience.

As my former attorney once told me, lawsuits are really just a somewhat
more civilized version of outright war.  Over time, I came to understand
that he was entirely right about that.  A lawsuit is a war by other means.

Mr. Cohen has declared war on AFRINIC.  He is currently pursuing that war,
with no signs of retreating or giving up.

Under these circumstances, matters relating to ordinary etiquette and
politness that are appropriate, expected, and essential at other times
and in other contexts are simply inapplicable.  No British soldier in
the trenches of World War I asked any German soldier if he had had his
morning tea before bayoneting him through the belly.

The institution that is AFRINIC is being besieged, via lawsuit, by
Mr. Cohen.  And on what basis?  For what crime?  We still have no
idea what this is even all about, or what Mr. Cohen's actual claims are.

Meanwhile, Mr.Cohen's past actions speak louder than anything that any
of us here might say or write.  I mentioned the five legacy /16 blocks
in the APNIC region that he had squatted on, inclding even a block
belonging to the Australian government.  I could and should perhaps also
have mentioned the case of the City of Cape Town's /16 block, and/or
the fact that Mr. Cohen, in -another- show of force and stupidity...
equally as brazen and ill-considered as his present vicious and baseless
legal attack on AFRINIC... also hired legal council in South Africa in a
vain and short-lived attempt to browbeat, harass, and extort the City
of Cape Town into giving him -their- rightful property (165.25.0.0/16).

I could go on and list a litany of other and additional depraved actions
on the part of Mr. Cohen, but I need not do so in order to make my
point, which is just that none of Mr. Cohen's actions, to date, comport
even in the slightest way with the norms and conventions of a "polite
community".  He has, by his actions, even more than his words, shown
himself to be about as polite as your typical horn-headed Viking marauder.

So now, given that, should we all now sit down to a polite cup of tea
with Mr. Cohen, even as he wages war against AFRINIC and its community
via the proxy of his hired mercinary barristers in the courts of Mauritius?
Is this wisdom or folly?  Civility or lunacy?

Frankly, the fact that Mr. Cohen has not already been shown the door
entirely, with respect to the mailing lists *and* with respect to the
WHOIS data base is beyond my poor ability to fathom.

If Mr. Cohen feels that he has some point to make, e.g. in his wild and
unsupported allegations of misdeeds by the present AFRINIC management,
then let him make those exact points in the forum that he himself has
chosen, i.e. in the law courts of Mauritius.  He has, I assume, retained
capable counsel to make his case and his points there.  Here however,
the community does not owe him a hearing, fair or otherwise, even while
he is waging an ongoing litigation war against AFRINIC, its management,
and its ordinarily respectful and polite community.

It is actually quite absurd to see Mr. Cohen here attempting, lamely,
to browbeat Eddy into giving him exactly the property that he is already
in court fighting over... as if this would make any difference to the
inevitable outcome.  I can only guess that perhaps it is starting to dawn
on him that he hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of getting what he
wants from the courts, so he is already switching to Plan B, which
apparently consists of just browbeating Eddy on the mailing lists.

Would someone else like to try to explain to Mr. Cohen that this isn't
going to work either, or shall I?


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Barry Macharia via Community-Discuss]

True 
They keep it civil or COC be evoked straight up   
regards 
Barry 

> On 30 Oct 2020, at 21:15, Tom Ochang  wrote:
> 
> 
> Noah, you have spoken well. 
> 
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 19:01 Noah,  wrote:
>> Elad
>> 
>> The Code of Conduct is there to stop such defamation. Since its been 
>> invoked, its a call to both you and Roland to calm down.
>> 
>> The reasons I am calling your back and forth exchange crap is because am on 
>> other lists where I have seen you both go on each other just like you were 
>> attempting to do here and its not new to some of us.
>> 
>> Let us have a civilized discourse for we are a polite community. 
>> 
>> That is all am saying.
>> 
>> Noah
>> 
>>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 20:47 Elad Cohen,  wrote:
>>> Noah,
>>> 
>>> All I'm doing is to respond to an organized defamation campaign against me.
>>> 
>>> I take it as an offence when you reference my response as "crap" after my 
>>> blood was spilled here in community-discuss mailing list for almost a year, 
>>> without you raising your voice when my blood was spilled here for such long 
>>> time. To the point that I needed to start a legal case against AfriNIC 
>>> because my blood was spilled here.
>>> 
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Elad
>>> From: Noah 
>>> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 7:36 PM
>>> To: Ali Hussein 
>>> Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC ; AFRINIC 
>>> Communication 
>>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders 
>>> in AfriNIC
>>>  
>>> Ali
>>> 
>>> This two have been going on each other for a while now and for those on 
>>> other lists like NANOG etc we have read enough of their crap esp when they 
>>> go personal and its just that we didnt expect to see the same crap on the 
>>> AFRINIC lists.
>>> 
>>> So its good that AFRINIC invoked the CoC which can come in handy.
>>> 
>>> Better they stick to issues if they both want further engagement with this 
>>> polite and hospitable community.
>>> 
>>> Noah
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 15:58 Ali Hussein,  wrote:
>>> Great to see Afrinic finally taking action to curb this behavior. 
>>> 
>>> Ali Hussein
>>> Digital Transformation 
>>> 
>>> +254 0713 601113 
>>> 
>>> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>>> Skype: abu-jomo
>>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>>> 
>>> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a 
>>> habit."  ~ Aristotle
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>>> On 30 Oct 2020, at 2:33 PM, AFRINIC Communication  
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dear Mr Cohen,
>>>> 
>>>> AFRINIC in its role to enforce the code of conduct on the community 
>>>> mailing list is issuing you your first written warning for the offensive 
>>>> behavior displayed against another member of the community list, namely 
>>>> Mr. Ronlad F. Guilmette on the thread titled “Notice to all the legacy 
>>>> netblocks holders in AfriNIC” 
>>>> 
>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html
>>>> 
>>>> You went on to continue with such behaviour after the AFRINIC 
>>>> communications team reminded the list of the code of conduct by sending 
>>>> out the following email 
>>>> 
>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html
>>>> 
>>>> In light of above, your behaviour has been deemed as offensive, 
>>>> discriminatory, and intimidating as it included personal attacks.This is 
>>>> in direct violation with Sections II and III of AFRINIC’s Code of Conduct. 
>>>> https://afrinic.net/code
>>>> 
>>>> You are hereby reminded to abide by the AFRINIC Code of Conduct  when 
>>>> interacting with the AFRINIC community at all times.
>>>> 
>>>> For more information please refer to the following blog. 
>>>> https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct
>>>> 
>>>> Please refrain from acting inappropriately o

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Tom Ochang]

Noah, you have spoken well.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 19:01 Noah,  wrote:

> Elad
>
> The Code of Conduct is there to stop such defamation. Since its been
> invoked, its a call to both you and Roland to calm down.
>
> The reasons I am calling your back and forth exchange crap is because am
> on other lists where I have seen you both go on each other just like you
> were attempting to do here and its not new to some of us.
>
> Let us have a civilized discourse for we are a polite community.
>
> That is all am saying.
>
> Noah
>
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 20:47 Elad Cohen,  wrote:
>
>> Noah,
>>
>> All I'm doing is to respond to an organized defamation campaign against
>> me.
>>
>> I take it as an offence when you reference my response as "crap" after my
>> blood was spilled here in community-discuss mailing list for almost a year,
>> without you raising your voice when my blood was spilled here for such long
>> time. To the point that I needed to start a legal case against AfriNIC
>> because my blood was spilled here.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Elad
>> --
>> *From:* Noah 
>> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2020 7:36 PM
>> *To:* Ali Hussein 
>> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC ;
>> AFRINIC Communication 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks
>> holders in AfriNIC
>>
>> Ali
>>
>> This two have been going on each other for a while now and for those on
>> other lists like NANOG etc we have read enough of their crap esp when they
>> go personal and its just that we didnt expect to see the same crap on the
>> AFRINIC lists.
>>
>> So its good that AFRINIC invoked the CoC which can come in handy.
>>
>> Better they stick to issues if they both want further engagement with
>> this polite and hospitable community.
>>
>> Noah
>>
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 15:58 Ali Hussein,  wrote:
>>
>> Great to see Afrinic finally taking action to curb this behavior.
>>
>> *Ali Hussein*
>> *Digital Transformation *
>>
>> +254 0713 601113
>>
>> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>>
>> Skype: abu-jomo
>>
>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>>
>> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
>> habit."  ~ Aristotle
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 30 Oct 2020, at 2:33 PM, AFRINIC Communication 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Dear Mr Cohen,
>>
>> AFRINIC in its role to enforce the code of conduct on the community
>> mailing list is issuing you your first written warning for the offensive
>> behavior displayed against another member of the community list, namely Mr.
>> Ronlad F. Guilmette on the thread titled “Notice to all the legacy
>> netblocks holders in AfriNIC”
>>
>>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
>>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
>>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html
>>
>> You went on to continue with such behaviour after the AFRINIC
>> communications team reminded the list of the code of conduct by sending out
>> the following email
>>
>>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html
>>
>> In light of above, your behaviour has been deemed as offensive,
>> discriminatory, and intimidating as it included personal attacks.This is in
>> direct violation with Sections II and III of AFRINIC’s Code of Conduct.
>> https://afrinic.net/code
>>
>> You are hereby reminded to abide by the AFRINIC Code of Conduct  when
>> interacting with the AFRINIC community at all times.
>>
>> For more information please refer to the following blog.
>> https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct
>>
>> Please refrain from acting inappropriately on AFRINIC mailing lists again.
>>
>> AFRINIC Communications Team
>>
>> ……
>>
>> Cher Monsieur Cohen,
>>
>> AFRINIC dans le cadre de son action pour faire respecter le code de
>> conduite sur la liste de diffusion communautaire vous adresse un premier
>> avertissement écrit pour le comportement offensant  à l'encontre d'un autre
>> membre de la liste communautaire, à savoir M. Ronlad F. Guilmette sur le
>> fil intitulé "Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC".
>>
>>
>> https://lists.afrinic

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Elad Cohen]

Noah,

The Code of Conduct didn't apply to me for almost a year, even AfriNIC CEO 
himself defamed me here in this mailing list according to my link with his 
quote.

While in the legal case, AfriNIC CEO didn't show anything to back up his 
defamation towards me, on the contrary - in the legal case AfriNIC is 
intentionally hiding information from the community, such as enforcing the 
"adopted policies" over any legacy netblock (that didn't sign RSA).

Why AfriNIC CEO is playing such game? Who is he protecting in AfriNIC?

"Let us have a civilized discourse for we are a polite community." - So why did 
you let Ronald Guilmette to spread his lies for such long time ? the only thing 
he does anywhere is to spread racism, hate, defamation and doubt with very bad 
intentions.

Not a single word from Ronald Guilmette regarding all the /11's and /16's that 
were spread for "free" by AfriNIC to a single entity, quoting Ronald's friend 
Owen DeLong (which is receiving money from that single entity, according to his 
own words): "Nothing to see here".

Kind Regards,
Elad

From: Noah 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 7:58 PM
To: Elad Cohen 
Cc: Ali Hussein ; General Discussions of AFRINIC 
; AFRINIC Communication 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC

Elad

The Code of Conduct is there to stop such defamation. Since its been invoked, 
its a call to both you and Roland to calm down.

The reasons I am calling your back and forth exchange crap is because am on 
other lists where I have seen you both go on each other just like you were 
attempting to do here and its not new to some of us.

Let us have a civilized discourse for we are a polite community.

That is all am saying.

Noah

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 20:47 Elad Cohen, 
mailto:e...@netstyle.io>> wrote:
Noah,

All I'm doing is to respond to an organized defamation campaign against me.

I take it as an offence when you reference my response as "crap" after my blood 
was spilled here in community-discuss mailing list for almost a year, without 
you raising your voice when my blood was spilled here for such long time. To 
the point that I needed to start a legal case against AfriNIC because my blood 
was spilled here.

Kind Regards,
Elad

From: Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>>
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 7:36 PM
To: Ali Hussein mailto:a...@hussein.me.ke>>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC 
mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>>; AFRINIC 
Communication mailto:co...@afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC

Ali

This two have been going on each other for a while now and for those on other 
lists like NANOG etc we have read enough of their crap esp when they go 
personal and its just that we didnt expect to see the same crap on the AFRINIC 
lists.

So its good that AFRINIC invoked the CoC which can come in handy.

Better they stick to issues if they both want further engagement with this 
polite and hospitable community.

Noah

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 15:58 Ali Hussein, 
mailto:a...@hussein.me.ke>> wrote:
Great to see Afrinic finally taking action to curb this behavior.

Ali Hussein
Digital Transformation

+254 0713 601113


Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a 
habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

On 30 Oct 2020, at 2:33 PM, AFRINIC Communication 
mailto:co...@afrinic.net>> wrote:


Dear Mr Cohen,

AFRINIC in its role to enforce the code of conduct on the community mailing 
list is issuing you your first written warning for the offensive behavior 
displayed against another member of the community list, namely Mr. Ronlad F. 
Guilmette on the thread titled “Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC”

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html

You went on to continue with such behaviour after the AFRINIC communications 
team reminded the list of the code of conduct by sending out the following email

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html

In light of above, your behaviour has been deemed as offensive, discriminatory, 
and intimidating as it included personal attacks.This is in direct violation 
with Sections II and III of AFRINIC’s Code of Conduct. https://afrinic.net/code

You are hereby reminded to abide by the AFRINIC Code of Conduct  when 
interacting with the AFRINIC community at all times.

For more information please refer to the following blog. 
https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-condu

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

Elad

The Code of Conduct is there to stop such defamation. Since its been
invoked, its a call to both you and Roland to calm down.

The reasons I am calling your back and forth exchange crap is because am on
other lists where I have seen you both go on each other just like you were
attempting to do here and its not new to some of us.

Let us have a civilized discourse for we are a polite community.

That is all am saying.

Noah

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 20:47 Elad Cohen,  wrote:

> Noah,
>
> All I'm doing is to respond to an organized defamation campaign against me.
>
> I take it as an offence when you reference my response as "crap" after my
> blood was spilled here in community-discuss mailing list for almost a year,
> without you raising your voice when my blood was spilled here for such long
> time. To the point that I needed to start a legal case against AfriNIC
> because my blood was spilled here.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Elad
> --
> *From:* Noah 
> *Sent:* Friday, October 30, 2020 7:36 PM
> *To:* Ali Hussein 
> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC ;
> AFRINIC Communication 
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks
> holders in AfriNIC
>
> Ali
>
> This two have been going on each other for a while now and for those on
> other lists like NANOG etc we have read enough of their crap esp when they
> go personal and its just that we didnt expect to see the same crap on the
> AFRINIC lists.
>
> So its good that AFRINIC invoked the CoC which can come in handy.
>
> Better they stick to issues if they both want further engagement with this
> polite and hospitable community.
>
> Noah
>
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 15:58 Ali Hussein,  wrote:
>
> Great to see Afrinic finally taking action to curb this behavior.
>
> *Ali Hussein*
> *Digital Transformation *
>
> +254 0713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>
> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
> habit."  ~ Aristotle
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 30 Oct 2020, at 2:33 PM, AFRINIC Communication 
> wrote:
>
> 
> Dear Mr Cohen,
>
> AFRINIC in its role to enforce the code of conduct on the community
> mailing list is issuing you your first written warning for the offensive
> behavior displayed against another member of the community list, namely Mr.
> Ronlad F. Guilmette on the thread titled “Notice to all the legacy
> netblocks holders in AfriNIC”
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html
>
> You went on to continue with such behaviour after the AFRINIC
> communications team reminded the list of the code of conduct by sending out
> the following email
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html
>
> In light of above, your behaviour has been deemed as offensive,
> discriminatory, and intimidating as it included personal attacks.This is in
> direct violation with Sections II and III of AFRINIC’s Code of Conduct.
> https://afrinic.net/code
>
> You are hereby reminded to abide by the AFRINIC Code of Conduct  when
> interacting with the AFRINIC community at all times.
>
> For more information please refer to the following blog.
> https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct
>
> Please refrain from acting inappropriately on AFRINIC mailing lists again.
>
> AFRINIC Communications Team
>
> ……
>
> Cher Monsieur Cohen,
>
> AFRINIC dans le cadre de son action pour faire respecter le code de
> conduite sur la liste de diffusion communautaire vous adresse un premier
> avertissement écrit pour le comportement offensant  à l'encontre d'un autre
> membre de la liste communautaire, à savoir M. Ronlad F. Guilmette sur le
> fil intitulé "Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC".
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html
>
> Vous avez continué avec ce comportement même après que l'équipe de
> communication AFRINIC ait fait un rappel sur le code de conduite en
> envoyant le courriel suivant:
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html
>
> À la lumière de ce qui précède, votre comportement a été perç

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Elad Cohen]

Noah,

All I'm doing is to respond to an organized defamation campaign against me.

I take it as an offence when you reference my response as "crap" after my blood 
was spilled here in community-discuss mailing list for almost a year, without 
you raising your voice when my blood was spilled here for such long time. To 
the point that I needed to start a legal case against AfriNIC because my blood 
was spilled here.

Kind Regards,
Elad

From: Noah 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 7:36 PM
To: Ali Hussein 
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC ; AFRINIC 
Communication 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC

Ali

This two have been going on each other for a while now and for those on other 
lists like NANOG etc we have read enough of their crap esp when they go 
personal and its just that we didnt expect to see the same crap on the AFRINIC 
lists.

So its good that AFRINIC invoked the CoC which can come in handy.

Better they stick to issues if they both want further engagement with this 
polite and hospitable community.

Noah

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 15:58 Ali Hussein, 
mailto:a...@hussein.me.ke>> wrote:
Great to see Afrinic finally taking action to curb this behavior.

Ali Hussein
Digital Transformation

+254 0713 601113


Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a 
habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

On 30 Oct 2020, at 2:33 PM, AFRINIC Communication 
mailto:co...@afrinic.net>> wrote:


Dear Mr Cohen,

AFRINIC in its role to enforce the code of conduct on the community mailing 
list is issuing you your first written warning for the offensive behavior 
displayed against another member of the community list, namely Mr. Ronlad F. 
Guilmette on the thread titled “Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC”

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html

You went on to continue with such behaviour after the AFRINIC communications 
team reminded the list of the code of conduct by sending out the following email

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html

In light of above, your behaviour has been deemed as offensive, discriminatory, 
and intimidating as it included personal attacks.This is in direct violation 
with Sections II and III of AFRINIC’s Code of Conduct. https://afrinic.net/code

You are hereby reminded to abide by the AFRINIC Code of Conduct  when 
interacting with the AFRINIC community at all times.

For more information please refer to the following blog. 
https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct

Please refrain from acting inappropriately on AFRINIC mailing lists again.

AFRINIC Communications Team

……

Cher Monsieur Cohen,

AFRINIC dans le cadre de son action pour faire respecter le code de conduite 
sur la liste de diffusion communautaire vous adresse un premier avertissement 
écrit pour le comportement offensant  à l'encontre d'un autre membre de la 
liste communautaire, à savoir M. Ronlad F. Guilmette sur le fil intitulé 
"Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC".

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html

Vous avez continué avec ce comportement même après que l'équipe de 
communication AFRINIC ait fait un rappel sur le code de conduite en envoyant le 
courriel suivant:

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html

À la lumière de ce qui précède, votre comportement a été perçu comme étant  
offensant, discriminatoire et intimidant car il inclut des attaques 
personnelles. Ceci est en violation directe avec les sections II et III du code 
de conduite de l'AFRINIC : https://afrinic.net/code

Il vous est rappelé de respecter le code de conduite AFRINIC  lorsque vous 
interagissez avec la communauté AFRINIC à tout moment.

Pour plus d'informations, veuillez vous référer au blog suivant. 
https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct

Veuillez vous abstenir d'agir à nouveau de manière inappropriée sur les listes 
de diffusion AFRINIC.

L’Equipe de Communications d’AFRINIC





On 27 Oct 2020, at 17:57, Elad Cohen 
mailto:e...@netstyle.io>> wrote:

"I have other things to attend to." - like cleaning pores?

From: Ronald F. Guilmette 
mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:03 PM
To: community-discuss@afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Noah]

Ali

This two have been going on each other for a while now and for those on
other lists like NANOG etc we have read enough of their crap esp when they
go personal and its just that we didnt expect to see the same crap on the
AFRINIC lists.

So its good that AFRINIC invoked the CoC which can come in handy.

Better they stick to issues if they both want further engagement with this
polite and hospitable community.

Noah

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 15:58 Ali Hussein,  wrote:

> Great to see Afrinic finally taking action to curb this behavior.
>
> *Ali Hussein*
> *Digital Transformation *
>
> +254 0713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>
> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
> habit."  ~ Aristotle
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 30 Oct 2020, at 2:33 PM, AFRINIC Communication 
> wrote:
>
> 
> Dear Mr Cohen,
>
> AFRINIC in its role to enforce the code of conduct on the community
> mailing list is issuing you your first written warning for the offensive
> behavior displayed against another member of the community list, namely Mr.
> Ronlad F. Guilmette on the thread titled “Notice to all the legacy
> netblocks holders in AfriNIC”
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html
>
> You went on to continue with such behaviour after the AFRINIC
> communications team reminded the list of the code of conduct by sending out
> the following email
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html
>
> In light of above, your behaviour has been deemed as offensive,
> discriminatory, and intimidating as it included personal attacks.This is in
> direct violation with Sections II and III of AFRINIC’s Code of Conduct.
> https://afrinic.net/code
>
> You are hereby reminded to abide by the AFRINIC Code of Conduct  when
> interacting with the AFRINIC community at all times.
>
> For more information please refer to the following blog.
> https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct
>
> Please refrain from acting inappropriately on AFRINIC mailing lists again.
>
> AFRINIC Communications Team
>
> ……
>
> Cher Monsieur Cohen,
>
> AFRINIC dans le cadre de son action pour faire respecter le code de
> conduite sur la liste de diffusion communautaire vous adresse un premier
> avertissement écrit pour le comportement offensant  à l'encontre d'un autre
> membre de la liste communautaire, à savoir M. Ronlad F. Guilmette sur le
> fil intitulé "Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC".
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html
>
> Vous avez continué avec ce comportement même après que l'équipe de
> communication AFRINIC ait fait un rappel sur le code de conduite en
> envoyant le courriel suivant:
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html
>
> À la lumière de ce qui précède, votre comportement a été perçu comme étant
>  offensant, discriminatoire et intimidant car il inclut des attaques
> personnelles. Ceci est en violation directe avec les sections II et III du
> code de conduite de l'AFRINIC : https://afrinic.net/code
>
> Il vous est rappelé de respecter le code de conduite AFRINIC  lorsque vous
> interagissez avec la communauté AFRINIC à tout moment.
>
> Pour plus d'informations, veuillez vous référer au blog suivant.
> https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct
>
> Veuillez vous abstenir d'agir à nouveau de manière inappropriée sur les
> listes de diffusion AFRINIC.
>
> L’Equipe de Communications d’AFRINIC
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27 Oct 2020, at 17:57, Elad Cohen  wrote:
>
> "I have other things to attend to." - like cleaning pores?
> --
> *From:* Ronald F. Guilmette 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:03 PM
> *To:* community-discuss@afrinic.net 
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks
> holders in AfriNIC
>
> In message <995eca50-e1da-49ea-acc0-54eda4091...@afrinic.net>,
> AFRINIC Communication  wrote:
>
> >The Regional Internet Registry (RIR) system is a successful model of
> >industry self-regulation...
>
> I would be happy to debate the tr

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Elad Cohen]

Ali, AfriNIC, all

All I did was to respond to Ronald Guilmette after he defamed me for very very 
long time in that same mailing list, without any request for him to stop by 
anyone.

I'm asking for AfriNIC Code of Conduct to apply also to the messages of AfriNIC 
CEO that lied to the community on 31th of January 2020 
(https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-January/003458.html)
 and based on his lies I was defamed in a news report.

"We are also ensuring that the current holder/contact of the resources are 
provided with the opportunity of proving their ownership."

All my related replies to AfriNIC were intentionally ignored. While this is not 
what written to the AfriNIC community by AfriNIC CEO, and based on that lying 
sentence I was defamed in a news report. And also AfriNIC dragged everything to 
a legal case after lying to the whole AfriNIC community (in the above link).

No word from AfriNIC (or AfriNIC CEO) about all the non-legacy netblocks that 
were provided for "free" by AfriNIC and then there was a data loss incident...

For example:
https://bgp.he.net/AS35916#_prefixes

What is going on here ???

Because important people in the industry such as Owen DeLong are on the payroll 
of "Cloud Innovation Ltd" then no one is speaking about all the non-legacy 
netblocks that this single entity received ? (such as /11's and /16's like 
candies)

Owen DeLong specifically wrote here in Community-Discuss when he was asked 
about netblocks "Cloud Innovation Ltd" the following sentence: (and he also 
confirmed receiving money from "Cloud Innovation Ltd")

"Nothing to see here"

---

So with all the enormous non-legacy netblocks that AfriNIC gave for "free" 
there is "nothing to see" ? (with the words of Owen DeLong) but with my legacy 
resources that I purchased legaly with money and didn't receive anything for 
"free" - AfriNIC is dragging it all to a colloquial legal case after 
intentionally ignoring all my replies to them?

AfriNIC LIR members need to start waking up, this is your RIR.

Kind Regards,
Elad

From: Ali Hussein 
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 2:52 PM
To: AFRINIC Communication 
Cc: Elad Cohen ; community-discuss@afrinic.net 

Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC

Great to see Afrinic finally taking action to curb this behavior.

Ali Hussein
Digital Transformation

+254 0713 601113


Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a 
habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

On 30 Oct 2020, at 2:33 PM, AFRINIC Communication  wrote:


Dear Mr Cohen,

AFRINIC in its role to enforce the code of conduct on the community mailing 
list is issuing you your first written warning for the offensive behavior 
displayed against another member of the community list, namely Mr. Ronlad F. 
Guilmette on the thread titled “Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC”

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html

You went on to continue with such behaviour after the AFRINIC communications 
team reminded the list of the code of conduct by sending out the following email

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html

In light of above, your behaviour has been deemed as offensive, discriminatory, 
and intimidating as it included personal attacks.This is in direct violation 
with Sections II and III of AFRINIC’s Code of Conduct. https://afrinic.net/code

You are hereby reminded to abide by the AFRINIC Code of Conduct  when 
interacting with the AFRINIC community at all times.

For more information please refer to the following blog. 
https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct

Please refrain from acting inappropriately on AFRINIC mailing lists again.

AFRINIC Communications Team

……

Cher Monsieur Cohen,

AFRINIC dans le cadre de son action pour faire respecter le code de conduite 
sur la liste de diffusion communautaire vous adresse un premier avertissement 
écrit pour le comportement offensant  à l'encontre d'un autre membre de la 
liste communautaire, à savoir M. Ronlad F. Guilmette sur le fil intitulé 
"Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC".

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html

Vous avez continué avec ce comportement même après que l'équipe de 
communication AFRINIC ait fait un rappe

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Ali Hussein]

Great to see Afrinic finally taking action to curb this behavior. 

Ali Hussein
Digital Transformation 

+254 0713 601113 

Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a 
habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

> On 30 Oct 2020, at 2:33 PM, AFRINIC Communication  wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Mr Cohen,
> 
> AFRINIC in its role to enforce the code of conduct on the community mailing 
> list is issuing you your first written warning for the offensive behavior 
> displayed against another member of the community list, namely Mr. Ronlad F. 
> Guilmette on the thread titled “Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
> AfriNIC” 
> 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html
> 
> You went on to continue with such behaviour after the AFRINIC communications 
> team reminded the list of the code of conduct by sending out the following 
> email 
> 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html
> 
> In light of above, your behaviour has been deemed as offensive, 
> discriminatory, and intimidating as it included personal attacks.This is in 
> direct violation with Sections II and III of AFRINIC’s Code of Conduct. 
> https://afrinic.net/code
> 
> You are hereby reminded to abide by the AFRINIC Code of Conduct  when 
> interacting with the AFRINIC community at all times.
> 
> For more information please refer to the following blog. 
> https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct
> 
> Please refrain from acting inappropriately on AFRINIC mailing lists again.
> 
> AFRINIC Communications Team
> 
> ……
> 
> Cher Monsieur Cohen,
> 
> AFRINIC dans le cadre de son action pour faire respecter le code de conduite 
> sur la liste de diffusion communautaire vous adresse un premier avertissement 
> écrit pour le comportement offensant  à l'encontre d'un autre membre de la 
> liste communautaire, à savoir M. Ronlad F. Guilmette sur le fil intitulé 
> "Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC". 
> 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html
> 
> Vous avez continué avec ce comportement même après que l'équipe de 
> communication AFRINIC ait fait un rappel sur le code de conduite en envoyant 
> le courriel suivant: 
> 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html
> 
> À la lumière de ce qui précède, votre comportement a été perçu comme étant  
> offensant, discriminatoire et intimidant car il inclut des attaques 
> personnelles. Ceci est en violation directe avec les sections II et III du 
> code de conduite de l'AFRINIC : https://afrinic.net/code
> 
> Il vous est rappelé de respecter le code de conduite AFRINIC  lorsque vous 
> interagissez avec la communauté AFRINIC à tout moment. 
> 
> Pour plus d'informations, veuillez vous référer au blog suivant. 
> https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct
> 
> Veuillez vous abstenir d'agir à nouveau de manière inappropriée sur les 
> listes de diffusion AFRINIC.
> 
> L’Equipe de Communications d’AFRINIC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 27 Oct 2020, at 17:57, Elad Cohen  wrote:
>> 
>> "I have other things to attend to." - like cleaning pores?
>> From: Ronald F. Guilmette 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:03 PM
>> To: community-discuss@afrinic.net 
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders 
>> in AfriNIC
>>  
>> In message <995eca50-e1da-49ea-acc0-54eda4091...@afrinic.net>, 
>> AFRINIC Communication  wrote:
>> 
>> >The Regional Internet Registry (RIR) system is a successful model of
>> >industry self-regulation...
>> 
>> I would be happy to debate the truth or falsehood of that proposition
>> with you at some appropriate moment.  (Not just now.  I have other
>> things to attend to.)
>> 
>> It is likely true that the RIR system has served, like the Pax Americana
>> of the late 20th century and the Pax Romana before it, to prevent all-out
>> violent confrontations between otherwise opposing factions.  But this
>> is not the only possible definition of the word "successful", and there
>> have been glaring and ev

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[AFRINIC Communication]

Dear Mr Cohen,

AFRINIC in its role to enforce the code of conduct on the community mailing 
list is issuing you your first written warning for the offensive behavior 
displayed against another member of the community list, namely Mr. Ronlad F. 
Guilmette on the thread titled “Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC” 

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html

You went on to continue with such behaviour after the AFRINIC communications 
team reminded the list of the code of conduct by sending out the following 
email 

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html

In light of above, your behaviour has been deemed as offensive, discriminatory, 
and intimidating as it included personal attacks.This is in direct violation 
with Sections II and III of AFRINIC’s Code of Conduct. https://afrinic.net/code

You are hereby reminded to abide by the AFRINIC Code of Conduct  when 
interacting with the AFRINIC community at all times.

For more information please refer to the following blog. 
https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct

Please refrain from acting inappropriately on AFRINIC mailing lists again.

AFRINIC Communications Team

……

Cher Monsieur Cohen,

AFRINIC dans le cadre de son action pour faire respecter le code de conduite 
sur la liste de diffusion communautaire vous adresse un premier avertissement 
écrit pour le comportement offensant  à l'encontre d'un autre membre de la 
liste communautaire, à savoir M. Ronlad F. Guilmette sur le fil intitulé 
"Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC". 

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003713.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003715.html
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003718.html

Vous avez continué avec ce comportement même après que l'équipe de 
communication AFRINIC ait fait un rappel sur le code de conduite en envoyant le 
courriel suivant: 

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2020-October/003723.html

À la lumière de ce qui précède, votre comportement a été perçu comme étant  
offensant, discriminatoire et intimidant car il inclut des attaques 
personnelles. Ceci est en violation directe avec les sections II et III du code 
de conduite de l'AFRINIC : https://afrinic.net/code

Il vous est rappelé de respecter le code de conduite AFRINIC  lorsque vous 
interagissez avec la communauté AFRINIC à tout moment. 

Pour plus d'informations, veuillez vous référer au blog suivant. 
https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct

Veuillez vous abstenir d'agir à nouveau de manière inappropriée sur les listes 
de diffusion AFRINIC.

L’Equipe de Communications d’AFRINIC





> On 27 Oct 2020, at 17:57, Elad Cohen  wrote:
> 
> "I have other things to attend to." - like cleaning pores?
> From: Ronald F. Guilmette 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:03 PM
> To: community-discuss@afrinic.net 
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders 
> in AfriNIC
>  
> In message <995eca50-e1da-49ea-acc0-54eda4091...@afrinic.net>, 
> AFRINIC Communication  wrote:
> 
> >The Regional Internet Registry (RIR) system is a successful model of
> >industry self-regulation...
> 
> I would be happy to debate the truth or falsehood of that proposition
> with you at some appropriate moment.  (Not just now.  I have other
> things to attend to.)
> 
> It is likely true that the RIR system has served, like the Pax Americana
> of the late 20th century and the Pax Romana before it, to prevent all-out
> violent confrontations between otherwise opposing factions.  But this
> is not the only possible definition of the word "successful", and there
> have been glaring and evident problems... in the AFRINIC region, in the
> ARIN region, in the RIPE region, and elsewhere.  To simply and unilaterally
> declare that "This model of governance is good.  End of discusssion." is
> not entirely persuasive in the present context.
> 
> And although the industry may view this model as having been fantastically
> successful at keeping various governments largely or entirely at bay and
> largely or entirely out of the Internet regulation business (which even
> I would agree is a profoundly Good Thing) the industry, such as it is,
> is going to have to come to terms someday with that fact that secrecy
> and the shrouding of every detail underneath a gigantic blanket of
> NDAs neither promotes good governance nor is compatible with the ever
> increasing dependency of society as a whole on this utility we c

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Elad Cohen]

"I have other things to attend to." - like cleaning pores?

From: Ronald F. Guilmette 
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:03 PM
To: community-discuss@afrinic.net 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC

In message <995eca50-e1da-49ea-acc0-54eda4091...@afrinic.net>,
AFRINIC Communication  wrote:

>The Regional Internet Registry (RIR) system is a successful model of
>industry self-regulation...

I would be happy to debate the truth or falsehood of that proposition
with you at some appropriate moment.  (Not just now.  I have other
things to attend to.)

It is likely true that the RIR system has served, like the Pax Americana
of the late 20th century and the Pax Romana before it, to prevent all-out
violent confrontations between otherwise opposing factions.  But this
is not the only possible definition of the word "successful", and there
have been glaring and evident problems... in the AFRINIC region, in the
ARIN region, in the RIPE region, and elsewhere.  To simply and unilaterally
declare that "This model of governance is good.  End of discusssion." is
not entirely persuasive in the present context.

And although the industry may view this model as having been fantastically
successful at keeping various governments largely or entirely at bay and
largely or entirely out of the Internet regulation business (which even
I would agree is a profoundly Good Thing) the industry, such as it is,
is going to have to come to terms someday with that fact that secrecy
and the shrouding of every detail underneath a gigantic blanket of
NDAs neither promotes good governance nor is compatible with the ever
increasing dependency of society as a whole on this utility we call the
Internet, a utility whose underlying business arrangement have, by design,
been keep almost entirely opaque to the outside world.

The present pandemic has only increased the dependency of society on the
Internet, and thus it has also increased the need for more transparency
into these private business arragements, in the public interest.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <995eca50-e1da-49ea-acc0-54eda4091...@afrinic.net>, 
AFRINIC Communication  wrote:

>The Regional Internet Registry (RIR) system is a successful model of
>industry self-regulation...

I would be happy to debate the truth or falsehood of that proposition
with you at some appropriate moment.  (Not just now.  I have other
things to attend to.)

It is likely true that the RIR system has served, like the Pax Americana
of the late 20th century and the Pax Romana before it, to prevent all-out
violent confrontations between otherwise opposing factions.  But this
is not the only possible definition of the word "successful", and there
have been glaring and evident problems... in the AFRINIC region, in the
ARIN region, in the RIPE region, and elsewhere.  To simply and unilaterally
declare that "This model of governance is good.  End of discusssion." is
not entirely persuasive in the present context.

And although the industry may view this model as having been fantastically
successful at keeping various governments largely or entirely at bay and
largely or entirely out of the Internet regulation business (which even
I would agree is a profoundly Good Thing) the industry, such as it is,
is going to have to come to terms someday with that fact that secrecy
and the shrouding of every detail underneath a gigantic blanket of
NDAs neither promotes good governance nor is compatible with the ever
increasing dependency of society as a whole on this utility we call the
Internet, a utility whose underlying business arrangement have, by design,
been keep almost entirely opaque to the outside world.

The present pandemic has only increased the dependency of society on the
Internet, and thus it has also increased the need for more transparency
into these private business arragements, in the public interest.


Regards,
rfg

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Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[AFRINIC Communication]

us ? (to hurt and to 
> damage me because of business competition, because he is an employee of 
> business competitor GeoEdge)
> So I also figured who you are... because someone commented to you in Nanog, 
> the commentor called you antisemitic (someone which is not related to me) and 
> he also used the word "pores" in relation to you, and then he received a 
> reply (from one of your "Ops-Trust" mob friends) that the he obviously knows 
> you... Ronald, your identity is in old scriptures, do you know what is 
> written about you there ? that you are the most evil creature that ever 
> walked upon earth. That you don't stop lying and decepting and that you are 
> directly connected to the ancient snake.
> 
> I never saw you Ronald and never saw a picture of you, but I will bet by 100% 
> that you match one-by-one to the following characteristics that are written 
> in old scriptures regarding the most evil creature that ever walked on earth 
> and that lies and deception are combined in it according old scriptures:
> You are blond.
> You are bald.
> One eye of you is bigger than the other.
> One arm of you is bigger than the other.
> You have leprosy in your forehead.
> Your right ear is blocked and the left ear is opened. (it is written in old 
> scriptures: that when a person is coming to you to tell good things about 
> people you give him the blocked right ear, and when a person is coming to you 
> to tell bad things about people you give him the opened left ear).
> 
> Now, Ronald, after I figured who you are, will you deny it ? will you send us 
> pictures of you and health report to deny it ?
> 
> You are the lawless one, Ronald Guilmette.
> 
> 
> -
> 
> Let me also repeat for all the "Legacy Resource Holders" - AfriNIC in the 
> legal case are trying to take control hiddenly and secretly on all the legacy 
> netblocks, meaning to force all of AfriNIC policies on any legacy netblock 
> and on any legacy netblock holder, even when RSA is not signed. In 
> contradiction to to the content in AfriNIC own "Legacy Resource Holders" 
> webpage:
> https://afrinic.net/membership/legacy-resource 
> <https://afrinic.net/membership/legacy-resource>
> 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Elad
> From: Ronald F. Guilmette 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:42 AM
> To: community-discuss@afrinic.net 
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders 
> in AfriNIC
>  
> Elad Cohen is the Donald Trump of the Middle East.  He is a pathological
> liar, a con man, and a thief.
> 
> Much evidence exists to support this viewpoint, and somewhat less than
> all of that evidence has yet been seen by the public generally, and/or
> by the AFRINIC community specifically.  (I am informed and believe
> however that current AFRINIC management is already well and truly aware
> of much of this additional evidence.  All of it shall quite certainly
> be made public in due course.)
> 
> Even in lieu of that additional evidence, it should already be plain
> and clear to all that Mr. Cohen has made, and continues to make, the
> most outrageous and unbelievable claims, backed up by exactly -zero-
> hard evidence whatsoever.  He claims to have *somehow* purchased
> enormously vast gobs of valuable IPv4 legacy address space, from some
> unidentified party, while stedfastly refusing to name the party in
> question, or to produce a single shread of documentary evidence
> supporting his utterly outlandish claims.
> 
> This is a game that we here in the U.S. are already quite familiar with.
> 
> Critics of Mr. Trump's almost unbroken stream of ludicrous and outlandish
> claims, about his wealth, about the true source of his bank loans, and
> about numerous other of his superfically ridiculous claims have been
> begging Mr. Trump for over four long years now to produce his tax returns
> for public inspection, just as all other Presidents and presidential
> candidates have done here in the U.S. for that past 60+ years now.  To
> date, those many requests have never been honored.  Rather, Mr. Trump
> is always finding some new lame excuse for keeping his dirty little
> secrets secret.  And those excuses change from day to day.
> 
> So it is also with our Mr. Cohen.  Ask him to produce even a single shred
> of evidence to support his claims to rightfully own several millions of
> dollars worth of legacy AFRINIC IPv4 address space and he evades, delays,
> and gives excuses.  I suspect that at any moment Mr. Cohen may likewise
> claim to be the rightful owner of the gold fillings in my own teeth while
> likewise producing zero evidence to support that equally absurd claim.
> 
> Furthermore, Mr. Cohen evidentally isn

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Ashil]

yee of 
> business competitor GeoEdge)
> So I also figured who you are... because someone commented to you in Nanog, 
> the commentor called you antisemitic (someone which is not related to me) and 
> he also used the word "pores" in relation to you, and then he received a 
> reply (from one of your "Ops-Trust" mob friends) that the he obviously knows 
> you... Ronald, your identity is in old scriptures, do you know what is 
> written about you there ? that you are the most evil creature that ever 
> walked upon earth. That you don't stop lying and decepting and that you are 
> directly connected to the ancient snake.
> 
> I never saw you Ronald and never saw a picture of you, but I will bet by 100% 
> that you match one-by-one to the following characteristics that are written 
> in old scriptures regarding the most evil creature that ever walked on earth 
> and that lies and deception are combined in it according old scriptures:
> You are blond.
> You are bald.
> One eye of you is bigger than the other.
> One arm of you is bigger than the other.
> You have leprosy in your forehead.
> Your right ear is blocked and the left ear is opened. (it is written in old 
> scriptures: that when a person is coming to you to tell good things about 
> people you give him the blocked right ear, and when a person is coming to you 
> to tell bad things about people you give him the opened left ear).
> 
> Now, Ronald, after I figured who you are, will you deny it ? will you send us 
> pictures of you and health report to deny it ?
> 
> You are the lawless one, Ronald Guilmette.
> 
> 
> -
> 
> Let me also repeat for all the "Legacy Resource Holders" - AfriNIC in the 
> legal case are trying to take control hiddenly and secretly on all the legacy 
> netblocks, meaning to force all of AfriNIC policies on any legacy netblock 
> and on any legacy netblock holder, even when RSA is not signed. In 
> contradiction to to the content in AfriNIC own "Legacy Resource Holders" 
> webpage:
> https://afrinic.net/membership/legacy-resource 
> <https://afrinic.net/membership/legacy-resource>
> 
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Elad
> From: Ronald F. Guilmette 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:42 AM
> To: community-discuss@afrinic.net 
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders 
> in AfriNIC
>  
> Elad Cohen is the Donald Trump of the Middle East.  He is a pathological
> liar, a con man, and a thief.
> 
> Much evidence exists to support this viewpoint, and somewhat less than
> all of that evidence has yet been seen by the public generally, and/or
> by the AFRINIC community specifically.  (I am informed and believe
> however that current AFRINIC management is already well and truly aware
> of much of this additional evidence.  All of it shall quite certainly
> be made public in due course.)
> 
> Even in lieu of that additional evidence, it should already be plain
> and clear to all that Mr. Cohen has made, and continues to make, the
> most outrageous and unbelievable claims, backed up by exactly -zero-
> hard evidence whatsoever.  He claims to have *somehow* purchased
> enormously vast gobs of valuable IPv4 legacy address space, from some
> unidentified party, while stedfastly refusing to name the party in
> question, or to produce a single shread of documentary evidence
> supporting his utterly outlandish claims.
> 
> This is a game that we here in the U.S. are already quite familiar with.
> 
> Critics of Mr. Trump's almost unbroken stream of ludicrous and outlandish
> claims, about his wealth, about the true source of his bank loans, and
> about numerous other of his superfically ridiculous claims have been
> begging Mr. Trump for over four long years now to produce his tax returns
> for public inspection, just as all other Presidents and presidential
> candidates have done here in the U.S. for that past 60+ years now.  To
> date, those many requests have never been honored.  Rather, Mr. Trump
> is always finding some new lame excuse for keeping his dirty little
> secrets secret.  And those excuses change from day to day.
> 
> So it is also with our Mr. Cohen.  Ask him to produce even a single shred
> of evidence to support his claims to rightfully own several millions of
> dollars worth of legacy AFRINIC IPv4 address space and he evades, delays,
> and gives excuses.  I suspect that at any moment Mr. Cohen may likewise
> claim to be the rightful owner of the gold fillings in my own teeth while
> likewise producing zero evidence to support that equally absurd claim.
> 
> Furthermore, Mr. Cohen evidentally isn't even man enough to post here a
> copy of the legal complaint that he has allege

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Elad Cohen]

 "authorized"
route.  The reason for this, in at least some cases, is that not only
has AFRINIC management utterly failed to un-do the fradulent WHOIS data
base entries that were already known about and publicly reported on LAST
YEAR, but also and even worse, AFRINIC management has failed to prevent
Mr. Cohen from -continuing- to make fresh fradulent entries in the AFRINIC
data base, even into the current calendar year, for example, this one:

route:  155.159.0.0/16
descr:  Route-object
origin: AS18013
mnt-by: MNT-SCS
changed:info@afri.holdings 20200126
source: AFRINIC

I look forward to the day, if ever, when AFRINIC will decide to stop
allowing itself to be used by Mr. Cohen like a woman of the streets.

To say that this lack of care is shameful would be an understatement.

Coconut, there is something called laws and order, it is so a Coconut person 
cannot go ahead and shame and spread lies and make provocations and then 
destructive actions will be based on it (without any justice), in our world 
actions are taken based on evidences and proofs, to remind you - I wasn't sued 
not by a single entity, I was the one that initiated lawsuits and I will win in 
them all. Also anyone that repeated after your words will be sued as well, 
including their companies, you know exactly who you are.


Ronald, I'll end with a personal note, you remember how I figured who the 
spamhaus member was flamed everything inside spamhaus ? (to hurt and to damage 
me because of business competition, because he is an employee of business 
competitor GeoEdge)
So I also figured who you are... because someone commented to you in Nanog, the 
commentor called you antisemitic (someone which is not related to me) and he 
also used the word "pores" in relation to you, and then he received a reply 
(from one of your "Ops-Trust" mob friends) that the he obviously knows you... 
Ronald, your identity is in old scriptures, do you know what is written about 
you there ? that you are the most evil creature that ever walked upon earth. 
That you don't stop lying and decepting and that you are directly connected to 
the ancient snake.

I never saw you Ronald and never saw a picture of you, but I will bet by 100% 
that you match one-by-one to the following characteristics that are written in 
old scriptures regarding the most evil creature that ever walked on earth and 
that lies and deception are combined in it according old scriptures:

  *   You are blond.
  *   You are bald.
  *   One eye of you is bigger than the other.
  *   One arm of you is bigger than the other.
  *   You have leprosy in your forehead.
  *   Your right ear is blocked and the left ear is opened. (it is written in 
old scriptures: that when a person is coming to you to tell good things about 
people you give him the blocked right ear, and when a person is coming to you 
to tell bad things about people you give him the opened left ear).

Now, Ronald, after I figured who you are, will you deny it ? will you send us 
pictures of you and health report to deny it ?

You are the lawless one, Ronald Guilmette.


-

Let me also repeat for all the "Legacy Resource Holders" - AfriNIC in the legal 
case are trying to take control hiddenly and secretly on all the legacy 
netblocks, meaning to force all of AfriNIC policies on any legacy netblock and 
on any legacy netblock holder, even when RSA is not signed. In contradiction to 
to the content in AfriNIC own "Legacy Resource Holders" webpage:
https://afrinic.net/membership/legacy-resource


Kind Regards,
Elad

From: Ronald F. Guilmette 
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:42 AM
To: community-discuss@afrinic.net 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in 
AfriNIC

Elad Cohen is the Donald Trump of the Middle East.  He is a pathological
liar, a con man, and a thief.

Much evidence exists to support this viewpoint, and somewhat less than
all of that evidence has yet been seen by the public generally, and/or
by the AFRINIC community specifically.  (I am informed and believe
however that current AFRINIC management is already well and truly aware
of much of this additional evidence.  All of it shall quite certainly
be made public in due course.)

Even in lieu of that additional evidence, it should already be plain
and clear to all that Mr. Cohen has made, and continues to make, the
most outrageous and unbelievable claims, backed up by exactly -zero-
hard evidence whatsoever.  He claims to have *somehow* purchased
enormously vast gobs of valuable IPv4 legacy address space, from some
unidentified party, while stedfastly refusing to name the party in
question, or to produce a single shread of documentary evidence
supporting his utterly outlandish claims.

This is a game that we here in the U.S. are already quite familiar with.

Critics of Mr. Trump's alm

Re: [Community-Discuss] Notice to all the legacy netblocks holders in AfriNIC

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

Elad Cohen is the Donald Trump of the Middle East.  He is a pathological
liar, a con man, and a thief.

Much evidence exists to support this viewpoint, and somewhat less than
all of that evidence has yet been seen by the public generally, and/or
by the AFRINIC community specifically.  (I am informed and believe
however that current AFRINIC management is already well and truly aware
of much of this additional evidence.  All of it shall quite certainly
be made public in due course.)

Even in lieu of that additional evidence, it should already be plain
and clear to all that Mr. Cohen has made, and continues to make, the
most outrageous and unbelievable claims, backed up by exactly -zero-
hard evidence whatsoever.  He claims to have *somehow* purchased
enormously vast gobs of valuable IPv4 legacy address space, from some
unidentified party, while stedfastly refusing to name the party in
question, or to produce a single shread of documentary evidence
supporting his utterly outlandish claims.

This is a game that we here in the U.S. are already quite familiar with.

Critics of Mr. Trump's almost unbroken stream of ludicrous and outlandish
claims, about his wealth, about the true source of his bank loans, and
about numerous other of his superfically ridiculous claims have been
begging Mr. Trump for over four long years now to produce his tax returns
for public inspection, just as all other Presidents and presidential
candidates have done here in the U.S. for that past 60+ years now.  To
date, those many requests have never been honored.  Rather, Mr. Trump
is always finding some new lame excuse for keeping his dirty little
secrets secret.  And those excuses change from day to day.

So it is also with our Mr. Cohen.  Ask him to produce even a single shred
of evidence to support his claims to rightfully own several millions of
dollars worth of legacy AFRINIC IPv4 address space and he evades, delays,
and gives excuses.  I suspect that at any moment Mr. Cohen may likewise
claim to be the rightful owner of the gold fillings in my own teeth while
likewise producing zero evidence to support that equally absurd claim.

Furthermore, Mr. Cohen evidentally isn't even man enough to post here a
copy of the legal complaint that he has allegedly filed against AFRINIC.
He posts here, trying to persuade the AFRINIC community that AFRINIC
management has done something wrong by simply taking back what he and
his cohorts have stolen, and yet at this moment he is simultaneously
pursuing a legal attack against AFRINIC, and thus also against the very
same community that he is trying to persuade.  It may be too obvious to
even need saying, but I'll say it anyway:  Mr. Cohen has a funny way of
trying to gain allies for his personal financially-motivated jihad.

What we *do* know about Mr. Cohen, and what there *is* hard documentary
evidence to prove, is that he provided to various parties a number of
clearly forged LOA documents as he was attempting to obtain routing
for various parts of his stolen empire.  The evidence is so clear and
compelling that Mr. Cohen hasn't even bothered to try to dispute it.

But then again, why would he?  Anyone who spends at least two minutes
looking at the documents in question can readily see the obvious, i.e.
that the signatures and the "official" stamps on those documents are
the results of a quick-and-dirty cut-and-paste job in PhotoShop.  As I
have previously noted elsewhere, these forgeries are so inept and silly
that no self-respecting forger would even try to use such documents, or
try to pass them off as genuine.

Mr. Cohen does not wish to talk about those blatantly forged documents.
Nor does Mr. Cohen wish to talk about the five abandoned legacy /16 blocks
in the APNIC region that I caught him red-handed squatting on last year,
i.e. the 168.198.0.0/16, 139.44.0.0/16, 143.136.0.0/16, 143.253.0.0/16,
and 146.51.0.0/16 blocks, the first of which being the rightful property
of none other than the Australian national government.  And of course,
Mr. Cohen does not which to talk about his pending lawsuit against AFRINIC,
nor does he wish to post here a copy of his legal filing in that case
so that members of this community could know, first-hand and precisely,
what he is even suing AFRINIC for.  (For all anyone here knows, Mr. Cohen
may be suing AFRINIC merely over some unfortunate dog bite incident.)

Just like our Mr. Trump, Mr. Cohen is also long on retoric and grievances
and short on specifics and evidence.  At the drop of a hat, and at every
opportunity he bleats that he is the unfortunate and guiltless victim
of some unseen secret cabal, which apparently now includes AFRINIC,
all of whom are conspiring together to deter him from his mission of
gathering unearned wealth unto himself, presumably so that he can
ascend to his rightful place among the upper echelons of wealthy society
in Israel.  And as with our Mr. Trump, it is apparetly of no concern
whatsoever to Mr. Cohen who he has to step on or w