Re: [CGUYS] Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits.
1% pay... Google's link was on the first page...Bing was 77. On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Alvin Auerbach alvin.auerb...@verizon.netwrote: Google: 2nd hit was what I wanted. I checked the first 100 hits from Bing, and found nothing. I did a find on each Bing page for 1% None of the first 100 Bing hits had that term. I then stopped checking. Search term: 1% own Google's second hit: World's richest 1% own 40% of all wealth, UN report discovers ... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] More DTV weirdness...
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:34 PM, Richard P.richs...@gmail.com wrote: Last time I called WUSA about the poor reception problems, I asked the receptionist for engineering and they put me through. The receptionist usually doesn't have time to filter outside calls. Television broadcasters are notorious for being fairly unresponsive to viewers. The industry really doesn't view itself as serving the viewer, but rather the advertiser. Back in the day, radio stations had always been much closer to their listening audience than TV stations were to their viewers. That has changed a lot as radio has gone through a lot of consolidation, with local influence on the wane as programming more often than not is determined from afar. A TV viewer might be able to get an engineer on the phone, but it can be difficult these days what with all the problems that viewers are experiencing in the changeover to digital. There are surely many calls coming in to broadcasters about issues surrounding this transition. Indeed, most of the Washington area TV broadcasters, via their websites, and at times by means of slugging a scrolling message banner on the TV screen, provide a phone number at the FCC for viewers who have questions about reception. The stations themselves really do not want to have to deal with it, especially since the industry really didn't have much of a hand in the actual decision to move from analog to digital in the first place. Steve Richard P. On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 6:22 PM, phartz...@gmail.comphartz...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Richard P.richs...@gmail.com wrote: You might want to try calling and talking directly to one of their engineers. Letters just go to public affairs. You don't thnik that you have to go through public affairs to get to an engineer? I've been associated with the broadcasting industry long enough to know better than that. Unless one already has a direct line to engineering, you are going to have to go through a filter. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Gmail issue
Seems like a travel vault would be an automatic first target for hacking by passport and identity forgers... and that Lonely Planet would not have the type and quality of IT staff or expertise to stay ahead of them... But they don't run it themselves and you can't find it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Privacy [was: Gmail issue]
No setup is absolutely 100% reliable, but I have yet to lose email with AOL (which does offer free IMAP access), Google or Yahoo. I have however had email and other files disappear from supposedly securely backed up providers. I do have to wonder just those folks with multiple gigs of photo or movie files will do in the near future for backup. I do store things online, to share, and for easy retrieval. But to make that my ONLY location--that's asking for big trouble... Actually if you download your mail from Gmail automatically via IMAP, you can have a locally available copy of all your mail. I don't like IMAP except for my iPod Touch. It's a pain to clean up more than location for email. Every account I've ever had crashed at one time or another, including GMail, so if I do my backups it's my fault when it crashes. At least I'll have a few other copies safely tucked away. Email is the least of the data problems. Just how important are all those personal files anyway that it really matters if they disappear? One concern, is privacy. Anything you delete from an online server is still on their backup servers. Some of it can be subpoenaed to be used against you. I guess I'd rather keep private things private and not broadcast it all to the world or have it available for someone else after I deleted it. The only way to share sensitive data without it being seen or stolen is with encrypted P2P or sneakernet. Interesting Science Friday interview on NPR this week, http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200907312, Who Owns Your Digital Data? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits.
1% own is a really bad search, so let's not blame the search engine. First, it uses the % sign, which is often an operator. But worse, it's too short to get a meaningful response. That Google was able to get it on your first page probably has to do with you having browsed a story about it recently. Especially if you have Google Desktop installed. A much better search would be one percent own wealth, where pretty much any engine - Bing included - will put meaningful results on page one. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Alvin Auerbachalvin.auerb...@verizon.net wrote: Google: 2nd hit was what I wanted. I checked the first 100 hits from Bing, and found nothing. I did a find on each Bing page for 1% None of the first 100 Bing hits had that term. I then stopped checking. Search term: 1% own Google's second hit: World's richest 1% own 40% of all wealth, UN report discovers ... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Advertising for cell phones
Parents who have enough money to spend thousands on their kids electronics are probably spending ungodly hours at work in the first place to be able to afford it. Kids of successful parents typically feel ignored, or worse, don't realize what they've missed. Not a choice I would make personally. - Original Message From: Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:21:21 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Advertising for cell phones These days a $1,600 computer for a nine year old is par for the course, along with the cellphone, the game machine. the digital camera and Lord knows what else. And we wonder why so many seem to need special ed to know the difference betewwn work and play? Even then, there are levels of magnitude in kid-dom. My kids having been using computers since they were 2. I feel it's important for them to have that skill. They get my hand-built hand-me-downs. I bought an 4-year old Xbox from a cousin for $75. My son used his allowance to buy a used Gamecube the other day. It's probably 5 or 6 years old, but he loves playing Mario Bros Smash. They have limits on playing time. No gaming during the week while school's in and bad grades will make the games disappear altogether. TV is heavily controlled. Good behavior is rewarded. Bad behavior, not so much. My daughter has a 2 Gig Sansa Clip, that she got for Xmas and has a $50, bottom-of-the-line digital camera to encourage her creative side, which is quite creative. She uses it all the time, making stop-motion movies with it. I might give my son my old 1 Gig Sansa. They don't have cell phones, PSPs, Nintendo DSi's, a Wii nor an iPhone nor any of the other gold plated gadgets that all their friends seem to have. They read quite a bit, play outside and play with Legos, too. My daughter writes poetry, makes films, draws prodigiously and my son, well, he's not too creative, but he loves playing sports. I believe that everything can be done in moderation without them becoming complete slackers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wish m luck...
Yes Brian, I have two physical drives. I am booting from C: Now you made things interesting, go to he bios setup (scared...) ad see if I can select D: as the boot drive. Most likely I will be able too because my MB is not old... Mind you I have a Pentium4 an 3 giga memory... Many thanks Marcio -Original Message- From: Brian Jones wjone...@carolina.rr.com Sent: Jul 27, 2009 3:51 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Wish m luck... You already have 2 physical drives? (as opposed to logical drives.. C: and D: are logical drive identifiers.. they can be on the same physical drive) If you do, go into your BIOS setup and see if you can select the other one as your boot drive. This is the cheapest and easiest way to dual boot, and eliminate any problems with an additional layer of software. Most computers since 2005 can do this, and many since 1999 also can do this. - Brian - Original Message - From: Marcio m...@ix.netcom.com Brian Time off to sudy this dual boot... I already have a boot C: and a Data D:... I am no sure if I can put a third HD and have he option to boot frm it... Computers are fun...up to a pont... Marcio * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Jul 31, 2009, at 4:41 PM, mike wrote: Too true. Marketshare in itself does not imply security or lack of. But logic does seem to dictate that those who go after the insecure OS's go after the one with larger marketshare since they don't seem to go after the one with smaller marketshare which has been proven to be no more secure. As has been said time and time again, OS X is security by obscurity, not by design. But the end result for the user is more security just the same. 1) Why go for the unlikely explanation and tortuous logic when there is a direct and simple explanation? People find potential problems in all operating systems and manufacturers issue patches all the time. Potential is not actual. If you can't tell the difference you are living in fantasy land. Meanwhile, Windows gets compromised all the time and there are hundreds of real exploits in the wild. As I mentioned earlier, the I Love You virus was huge and it was written by a student taking his first programming course. It takes not genius to do this. Windows is exploited a lot because it is so easy. 2) You do your cause no credit by spouting untruths. Much of the Mac OS is open source UNIX. Apple's browser, Safari, is open-source WebKit. Apache is open source. MySQL is open source. Etc. Etc. Macs come loaded with open source software. It is not security by obscurity it is security by good engineering. I was just reading in Politico about the con/neocon birthers and I could not help making the connection with the false debating tactics and obfuscations the WFBs spread in this List. Politico called it no- nothing evasion and seeking shelter... behind rhetorical figments. I could not have said it better. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 3GS encryption useless
On Jul 31, 2009, at 7:18 PM, mike wrote: Next day, six weeks...whatever... I accept your resignation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 3GS encryption useless
You must have missed the part where apple was notified of this security issue weeks ago...I know you wouldn't choose to ignore facts like that. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:01 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Jul 31, 2009, at 7:18 PM, mike wrote: Next day, six weeks...whatever... I accept your resignation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Google Warning...
On Aug 1, 2009, at 12:15 AM, betty wrote: My Dad got his first computer when he was in his 70s, a Quadra 605, moved on to a PM 6100, now has an indigo CRT iMac that's fading a bit--used them for a home business. He told me he wants a MacBook or MB Pro with WiFi. Likes his Macs a lot; says they're easy, not scary, and don't crash. He's 91 and buying a new car tomorrow. An old age * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Wish m luck...
I gethered enough courage and went to the bios...Yes, they have a Boot section with the names of my two physical drives and I chose which one I boot first. But on the Main, thi is what I got: Primary IDE drive Master (not detected) Primary IDE drive Slave (not detected) Secondary IDE drive Master (the DVD_RW) Secondary IDE drive slave (not detected) Don´t leave me alone... How can I chose in a simple way which drive to boot? Why the drives are not detected?... Thanks Marcio -Original Message- From: Marcio m...@ix.netcom.com Sent: Aug 1, 2009 11:31 AM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Wish m luck... Yes Brian, I have two physical drives. I am booting from C: Now you made things interesting, go to he bios setup (scared...) ad see if I can select D: as the boot drive. Most likely I will be able too because my MB is not old... Mind you I have a Pentium4 an 3 giga memory... Many thanks Marcio -Original Message- From: Brian Jones wjone...@carolina.rr.com Sent: Jul 27, 2009 3:51 PM To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Wish m luck... You already have 2 physical drives? (as opposed to logical drives.. C: and D: are logical drive identifiers.. they can be on the same physical drive) If you do, go into your BIOS setup and see if you can select the other one as your boot drive. This is the cheapest and easiest way to dual boot, and eliminate any problems with an additional layer of software. Most computers since 2005 can do this, and many since 1999 also can do this. - Brian - Original Message - From: Marcio m...@ix.netcom.com Brian Time off to sudy this dual boot... I already have a boot C: and a Data D:... I am no sure if I can put a third HD and have he option to boot frm it... Computers are fun...up to a pont... Marcio * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Gmail issue
On Jul 31, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Art Clemons wrote: Actually if you download your mail from Gmail automatically via IMAP, you can have a locally available copy of all your mail. In fact if Gmail is set to allow you to work offline, you also can have a locally available copy of all your email via your browser hopefully set to access Google via https. Ditto for Apple Mail, Thunderbird, and many others. My main concern is that email storage be in a robust format that does not put everything in one huge file. These formats are especially sweet to use in conjunction with Time Machine backup. You never have to worry about lost mail. The only seriously wrong email client is Microsoft's Outlook/Entourage which persists in using PST. Just a stupid way to do it. Bad engineering. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
Right...that's why OS X gets taken out every time first time at the pwn to own. I know actual results and facts and stuff confudle you, but keep trying. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:00 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Jul 31, 2009, at 4:41 PM, mike wrote: Too true. Marketshare in itself does not imply security or lack of. But logic does seem to dictate that those who go after the insecure OS's go after the one with larger marketshare since they don't seem to go after the one with smaller marketshare which has been proven to be no more secure. As has been said time and time again, OS X is security by obscurity, not by design. But the end result for the user is more security just the same. 1) Why go for the unlikely explanation and tortuous logic when there is a direct and simple explanation? People find potential problems in all operating systems and manufacturers issue patches all the time. Potential is not actual. If you can't tell the difference you are living in fantasy land. Meanwhile, Windows gets compromised all the time and there are hundreds of real exploits in the wild. As I mentioned earlier, the I Love You virus was huge and it was written by a student taking his first programming course. It takes not genius to do this. Windows is exploited a lot because it is so easy. 2) You do your cause no credit by spouting untruths. Much of the Mac OS is open source UNIX. Apple's browser, Safari, is open-source WebKit. Apache is open source. MySQL is open source. Etc. Etc. Macs come loaded with open source software. It is not security by obscurity it is security by good engineering. I was just reading in Politico about the con/neocon birthers and I could not help making the connection with the false debating tactics and obfuscations the WFBs spread in this List. Politico called it no-nothing evasion and seeking shelter... behind rhetorical figments. I could not have said it better. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Advertising for cell phones
Specifically to the topic...what happened to highly subsidized android phones? They cost as much or more then other PDA phones. I'm hoping and wishing the hero goes to verizon, but I can see the trend that it will run at least 200 if not 300 considering it's quality compared to the mytouch 200 dollar android phone on tmobile. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 7:27 AM, Paul Meyer paulj...@yahoo.com wrote: Parents who have enough money to spend thousands on their kids electronics are probably spending ungodly hours at work in the first place to be able to afford it. Kids of successful parents typically feel ignored, or worse, don't realize what they've missed. Not a choice I would make personally. - Original Message From: Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:21:21 PM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Advertising for cell phones These days a $1,600 computer for a nine year old is par for the course, along with the cellphone, the game machine. the digital camera and Lord knows what else. And we wonder why so many seem to need special ed to know the difference betewwn work and play? Even then, there are levels of magnitude in kid-dom. My kids having been using computers since they were 2. I feel it's important for them to have that skill. They get my hand-built hand-me-downs. I bought an 4-year old Xbox from a cousin for $75. My son used his allowance to buy a used Gamecube the other day. It's probably 5 or 6 years old, but he loves playing Mario Bros Smash. They have limits on playing time. No gaming during the week while school's in and bad grades will make the games disappear altogether. TV is heavily controlled. Good behavior is rewarded. Bad behavior, not so much. My daughter has a 2 Gig Sansa Clip, that she got for Xmas and has a $50, bottom-of-the-line digital camera to encourage her creative side, which is quite creative. She uses it all the time, making stop-motion movies with it. I might give my son my old 1 Gig Sansa. They don't have cell phones, PSPs, Nintendo DSi's, a Wii nor an iPhone nor any of the other gold plated gadgets that all their friends seem to have. They read quite a bit, play outside and play with Legos, too. My daughter writes poetry, makes films, draws prodigiously and my son, well, he's not too creative, but he loves playing sports. I believe that everything can be done in moderation without them becoming complete slackers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Google Warning...
On Aug 1, 2009, at 12:15 AM, betty wrote: My Dad got his first computer when he was in his 70s, a Quadra 605, moved on to a PM 6100, now has an indigo CRT iMac that's fading a bit--used them for a home business. He told me he wants a MacBook or MB Pro with WiFi. Likes his Macs a lot; says they're easy, not scary, and don't crash. He's 91 and buying a new car tomorrow. An old age like this is what we all wish for. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Privacy [was: Gmail issue]
On Aug 1, 2009, at 7:11 AM, betty wrote: I don't like IMAP except for my iPod Touch. It's a pain to clean up more than location for email. I don't understand. I use IMAP from multiple locations and even leave the client running all the time on multiple computers. It all synchs up just fine. I keep my rules on one computer and it sorts my incoming emails into folders I can see from any location. The only glitch is that there are usually a few unsorted emails in my inbox that don't get sorted until the rules get applied from that one computer. I wish I could run rules on the server, but that is not really a serious problem. What do you mean by pain to clean up? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, mike wrote: Right...that's why OS X gets taken out every time first time at the pwn to own. I know actual results and facts and stuff confudle you, but keep trying. PSYCH 101: The most wretched and oppressed are often the ones who cling tightest to the belief that this is the way the world is supposed to be. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
On Jul 31, 2009, at 8:39 AM, Business Her Way wrote: http://daringfireball.net/2009/07/microsofts_long_slow_decline John Gruber is a keen observer. M$ can't seem to gets its brain around the concept of quality. On reflection I'm thinking the Laptop Hunters ads may be a M$ suicide note. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Privacy [was: Gmail issue]
I was thinking the same thing..I thought that's what IMAP was. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:27 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Aug 1, 2009, at 7:11 AM, betty wrote: I don't like IMAP except for my iPod Touch. It's a pain to clean up more than location for email. I don't understand. I use IMAP from multiple locations and even leave the client running all the time on multiple computers. It all synchs up just fine. I keep my rules on one computer and it sorts my incoming emails into folders I can see from any location. The only glitch is that there are usually a few unsorted emails in my inbox that don't get sorted until the rules get applied from that one computer. I wish I could run rules on the server, but that is not really a serious problem. What do you mean by pain to clean up? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
On Jul 31, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: In addition, Apple outsources the bulk of its production to China. You can do your own political calculations with that. The Macintosh is a Communist plot. I think I have heard that one before. And M$ has no dealings wit these Reds. Sure... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Gmail issue
On Jul 31, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Jeff Wright wrote: I always wonder what people do to corrupt their pst files. I have about 100 people archiving their email into network based psts in Outlook, some multi GB, and have near zero corruption issues. The reason you see so few M$ problems is that your staff are bringing in MacBooks to get their real work done and run most of their email via GMail. When they hear you coming the quickly but their Macs away. Just like Stalag 13. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...MORE
I think yer in the wrong class...phych 101 is down the hall. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:37 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:10 AM, mike wrote: Right...that's why OS X gets taken out every time first time at the pwn to own. I know actual results and facts and stuff confudle you, but keep trying. PSYCH 101: The most wretched and oppressed are often the ones who cling tightest to the belief that this is the way the world is supposed to be. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
Funny how all the mac fan boi press are keen observers. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:42 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Jul 31, 2009, at 8:39 AM, Business Her Way wrote: John Gruber is a keen observer. M$ can't seem to gets its brain around the concept of quality. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
Tony, I tried your suggestion, one percent own wealth Google said: No results found for one percent own wealth., Results for one percent own wealth (without quotes): Then all ten hits on the page were germane. - Bing said: We did not find any results for one percent own wealth. Try one of these related suggestions One Percent Motorcycle Club One Percent Realty The One Percent Doctrine HBO Jamie Johnson One Percent Movie 1 Percent One Percent Pipes Other resources that may help you: Get additional search tips by visiting Web Search Help. If you cannot find a page that you know exists, send the address to us. - Bing had NO meaningful results! - On Aug 1, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Tony B wrote: 1% own is a really bad search, so let's not blame the search engine. First, it uses the % sign, which is often an operator. But worse, it's too short to get a meaningful response. That Google was able to get it on your first page probably has to do with you having browsed a story about it recently. Especially if you have Google Desktop installed. A much better search would be one percent own wealth, where pretty much any engine - Bing included - will put meaningful results on page one. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Alvin Auerbachalvin.auerb...@verizon.net wrote: Google: 2nd hit was what I wanted. I checked the first 100 hits from Bing, and found nothing. I did a find on each Bing page for 1% None of the first 100 Bing hits had that term. I then stopped checking. Search term: 1% own Google's second hit: World's richest 1% own 40% of all wealth, UN report discovers ... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
MS hasn't thrown anyone out windows lately either. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Jul 31, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Roy A. Ackerman, Ph.D., E.A. wrote: In addition, Apple outsources the bulk of its production to China. You can do your own political calculations with that. The Macintosh is a Communist plot. I think I have heard that one before. And M$ has no dealings wit these Reds. Sure... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
M$ management in a panic starts fire sale... http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_30/b4140051491507.htm Microsoft has long enjoyed Olympian profit margins, using its monopoly power to maintain prices on its software even in tough times. But now, amid a terrible downturn and rising competition, CEO Steven A. Ballmer is shifting to a scrappier approach. He is cutting prices on a variety of fronts, from flagship Windows and Office products to newfangled Internet services. Microsoft has so many promotions for Office that its effective price is $100, down from $150, and even lower in such countries as Brazil and India... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
I never use bing, but I couldn't resist on this one. I searched for one percent own wealth and all of the first 15 links given were germane. All of them. http://www.bing.com/search?q=one+percent+own+wealthgo=form=QBLHqs=n Perhaps we need to start a site 'let me bing that for you' since some can't seem to use it. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Alvin Auerbach alvin.auerb...@verizon.netwrote: Tony, I tried your suggestion, one percent own wealth Google said: No results found for one percent own wealth., Results for one percent own wealth (without quotes): Then all ten hits on the page were germane. - Bing said: We did not find any results for one percent own wealth. Try one of these related suggestions One Percent Motorcycle Club One Percent Realty The One Percent Doctrine HBO Jamie Johnson One Percent Movie 1 Percent One Percent Pipes Other resources that may help you: Get additional search tips by visiting Web Search Help. If you cannot find a page that you know exists, send the address to us. - Bing had NO meaningful results! - On Aug 1, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Tony B wrote: 1% own is a really bad search, so let's not blame the search engine. First, it uses the % sign, which is often an operator. But worse, it's too short to get a meaningful response. That Google was able to get it on your first page probably has to do with you having browsed a story about it recently. Especially if you have Google Desktop installed. A much better search would be one percent own wealth, where pretty much any engine - Bing included - will put meaningful results on page one. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Alvin Auerbachalvin.auerb...@verizon.net wrote: Google: 2nd hit was what I wanted. I checked the first 100 hits from Bing, and found nothing. I did a find on each Bing page for 1% None of the first 100 Bing hits had that term. I then stopped checking. Search term: 1% own Google's second hit: World's richest 1% own 40% of all wealth, UN report discovers ... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
On Aug 1, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Alvin Auerbach wrote: Bing had NO meaningful results! Did it not say... Other resources that may help you: Google That would be a terrible oversight. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ... NOT
Oh, so that's why Apple lowers prices, panic.. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:32 AM, TPiwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: M$ management in a panic starts fire sale... http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_30/b4140051491507.htm Microsoft has long enjoyed Olympian profit margins, using its monopoly power to maintain prices on its software even in tough times. But now, amid a terrible downturn and rising competition, CEO Steven A. Ballmer is shifting to a scrappier approach. He is cutting prices on a variety of fronts, from flagship Windows and Office products to newfangled Internet services. Microsoft has so many promotions for Office that its effective price is $100, down from $150, and even lower in such countries as Brazil and India... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
Google said: No results found for one percent own wealth., Results for one percent own wealth (without quotes): Then all ten hits on the page were germane. - Bing said: We did not find any results for one percent own wealth. Your search shouldn't have been quoted. The quotes meant that you were searching for pages containing the literal phrase one percent own wealth, of which there apparently are none. Only use quotes when you're searching for a specific, exact phrase. Google found results because it removed the quotes and tried again. Bing didn't do that. What Google did is certainly helpful, and Bing should do it too. But that doesn't change the fact that the original search was incorrect... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
Tony did not suggest: one percent own wealth. He suggested: one percent own wealth. So that's what I used as a search term. Note that Google, on its own, tried the search without the quotes when it didn't get results with the quotes, whereas Bing did not do that, or even suggest that. On Aug 1, 2009, at 12:37 PM, mike wrote: I never use bing, but I couldn't resist on this one. I searched for one percent own wealth and all of the first 15 links given were germane. All of them. http://www.bing.com/search?q=one+percent+own+wealthgo=form=QBLHqs=n Perhaps we need to start a site 'let me bing that for you' since some can't seem to use it. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Alvin Auerbach alvin.auerb...@verizon.netwrote: Tony, I tried your suggestion, one percent own wealth Google said: No results found for one percent own wealth., Results for one percent own wealth (without quotes): Then all ten hits on the page were germane. - Bing said: We did not find any results for one percent own wealth. Try one of these related suggestions One Percent Motorcycle Club One Percent Realty The One Percent Doctrine HBO Jamie Johnson One Percent Movie 1 Percent One Percent Pipes Other resources that may help you: Get additional search tips by visiting Web Search Help. If you cannot find a page that you know exists, send the address to us. - Bing had NO meaningful results! - On Aug 1, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Tony B wrote: 1% own is a really bad search, so let's not blame the search engine. First, it uses the % sign, which is often an operator. But worse, it's too short to get a meaningful response. That Google was able to get it on your first page probably has to do with you having browsed a story about it recently. Especially if you have Google Desktop installed. A much better search would be one percent own wealth, where pretty much any engine - Bing included - will put meaningful results on page one. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Alvin Auerbachalvin.auerb...@verizon.net wrote: Google: 2nd hit was what I wanted. I checked the first 100 hits from Bing, and found nothing. I did a find on each Bing page for 1% None of the first 100 Bing hits had that term. I then stopped checking. Search term: 1% own Google's second hit: World's richest 1% own 40% of all wealth, UN report discovers ... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
But that doesn't change the fact that the original search was incorrect... The test is not to see which person can parse his search in the most efficient manner for the search engine. The test is to see which search engine can respond in the most efficient manner for the person, even if the person does not parse his search in the most efficient manner. This reminds me of a story from long ago, told to me by my mother: The boss wants to test which of two people is best for him to hire. He tells each of them to go to the grocery store next door to see if they have onions. The first person reports back, Yes, they have onions. The second person reports back, Yes, they have onions, and they're $1.00 a pound; and they have 5 lb. bags for $4.00. The second person gets hired, instead of the first person. Google gets used, instead of Bing. On Aug 1, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Chris Dunford wrote: Google said: No results found for one percent own wealth., Results for one percent own wealth (without quotes): Then all ten hits on the page were germane. - Bing said: We did not find any results for one percent own wealth. Your search shouldn't have been quoted. The quotes meant that you were searching for pages containing the literal phrase one percent own wealth, of which there apparently are none. Only use quotes when you're searching for a specific, exact phrase. Google found results because it removed the quotes and tried again. Bing didn't do that. What Google did is certainly helpful, and Bing should do it too. But that doesn't change the fact that the original search was incorrect... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
Well, we all knew today's searches are personalized, didn't we? Long gone are the days of one index with an identical set of results for all of us. I thought it would go without saying you wouldn't include the quotes. :) Agreed the engine should have known to try it with and without quotes. A human would have. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Alvin Auerbachalvin.auerb...@verizon.net wrote: Tony did not suggest: one percent own wealth. He suggested: one percent own wealth. So that's what I used as a search term. Note that Google, on its own, tried the search without the quotes when it didn't get results with the quotes, whereas Bing did not do that, or even suggest that. On Aug 1, 2009, at 12:37 PM, mike wrote: I never use bing, but I couldn't resist on this one. I searched for one percent own wealth and all of the first 15 links given were germane. All of them. http://www.bing.com/search?q=one+percent+own+wealthgo=form=QBLHqs=n Perhaps we need to start a site 'let me bing that for you' since some can't seem to use it. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Alvin Auerbach alvin.auerb...@verizon.netwrote: Tony, I tried your suggestion, one percent own wealth Google said: No results found for one percent own wealth., Results for one percent own wealth (without quotes): Then all ten hits on the page were germane. - Bing said: We did not find any results for one percent own wealth. Try one of these related suggestions One Percent Motorcycle Club One Percent Realty The One Percent Doctrine HBO Jamie Johnson One Percent Movie 1 Percent One Percent Pipes Other resources that may help you: Get additional search tips by visiting Web Search Help. If you cannot find a page that you know exists, send the address to us. - Bing had NO meaningful results! - On Aug 1, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Tony B wrote: 1% own is a really bad search, so let's not blame the search engine. First, it uses the % sign, which is often an operator. But worse, it's too short to get a meaningful response. That Google was able to get it on your first page probably has to do with you having browsed a story about it recently. Especially if you have Google Desktop installed. A much better search would be one percent own wealth, where pretty much any engine - Bing included - will put meaningful results on page one. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 12:29 AM, Alvin Auerbachalvin.auerb...@verizon.net wrote: Google: 2nd hit was what I wanted. I checked the first 100 hits from Bing, and found nothing. I did a find on each Bing page for 1% None of the first 100 Bing hits had that term. I then stopped checking. Search term: 1% own Google's second hit: World's richest 1% own 40% of all wealth, UN report discovers ... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
The test is not to see which person can parse his search in the most efficient manner for the search engine. Well, I don't think the decision to quote or not relates to phrasing a search in the most efficient manner for the search engine. This is some pretty basic stuff; it's not some arcane syntax for some particular search engine. I don't know of any search that wouldn't interpret that as find me all pages containing the exact phrase 'one percent own wealth'. The only question is, what should the search engine do when it fails? In my own experience, if I search for an exact phrase, and there are no hits, and Google tries again without the quotes, the results rarely have what I was looking for, since it doesn't actually exist. It worked in this case, but that's because the unquoted version was what he really wanted. But most of the time, it won't. So try again without quotes is not, in my opinion, nearly as useful as it would seem. None of this, of course, to say that Bing shouldn't have tried it without quotes. I already said that it probably should have. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
On Aug 1, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Alvin Auerbach wrote: The first person reports back, Yes, they have onions. The second person reports back, Yes, they have onions, and they're $1.00 a pound; and they have 5 lb. bags for $4.00. Bing's advertising implies that Bing comes back with a delicious plate of Blooming Onions. On Aug 1, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Alvin Auerbach wrote: The test is to see which search engine can respond in the most efficient manner for the person, even if the person does not parse his search in the most efficient manner. Would it even occur to M$ that the customer expects them to be at their service and not the other way around? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Google Warning...
WoW! Impressive... db betty wrote: I'm finding it very difficult to teach these seniors not to be afraid of the machines, and yet balance that with the security issues that they will find on their home computers. You are experience first hand the difference between getting Windows vs Macintosh. The Macs are far more resistant to this kind of pollution. They would be easier to lock down too, but that is generally unnecessary. My Dad got his first computer when he was in his 70s, a Quadra 605, moved on to a PM 6100, now has an indigo CRT iMac that's fading a bit--used them for a home business. He told me he wants a MacBook or MB Pro with WiFi. Likes his Macs a lot; says they're easy, not scary, and don't crash. He's 91 and buying a new car tomorrow. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
Quoting Alvin Auerbach alvin.auerb...@verizon.net: Tony, I tried your suggestion, one percent own wealth Tried the original search on Yahoo! It *suggested* these as search terms: top 1% own 1% ownership richest 1% own top 1% own 90% 1% owns Now if you go with the original, you get useless results. If you pick one of the suggested terms, the results are much ore on target. Gotta go with Tony on this one. It's not a good search term. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Privacy [was: Gmail issue]
The only drawbacks to IMAP are: * that there is a very short lag when clicking on a folder etc. for the sync to occur * this syncing consumes some bandwidth * you are keeping a copy of all your mail on the server so you may have to pay for that space there ... or your employer or whoever owns the server may put limits on the space you can use. Other than that I think IMAP it is really nifty. Some people basically do the same thing by only using webmail ... not such a bad thing with the new AJAX technology But I still personally prefer using a local email client such as Thunderbird with IMAP accounts ... instead of POP. My two bits... db TPiwowar wrote: On Aug 1, 2009, at 7:11 AM, betty wrote: I don't like IMAP except for my iPod Touch. It's a pain to clean up more than location for email. I don't understand. I use IMAP from multiple locations and even leave the client running all the time on multiple computers. It all synchs up just fine. I keep my rules on one computer and it sorts my incoming emails into folders I can see from any location. The only glitch is that there are usually a few unsorted emails in my inbox that don't get sorted until the rules get applied from that one computer. I wish I could run rules on the server, but that is not really a serious problem. What do you mean by pain to clean up? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Tony's Search [Was Google: 2nd hit. Bing: Not in 100 hits}
On Aug 1, 2009, at 4:29 PM, Reid Katan wrote: Gotta go with Tony on this one. It's not a good search term. Or as M$ would say... 00x2351000 rg=A601749071084-2 vq=h609124650458-12 za=73q4r98072186 qw=5123451564415 Press CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue... * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
http://daringfireball.net/2009/07/microsofts_long_slow_decline John Gruber is a keen observer. M$ can't seem to gets its brain around the concept of quality. Gruber is an MFB. All he is doing is confirming your biases. Would you consider a hard-right neocon analysis of the Democrats well thought out? On reflection I'm thinking the Laptop Hunters ads may be a M$ suicide note. I believe the words you are looking for regarding your new Mac prices is thank you. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Gmail issue
Ditto for Apple Mail, Thunderbird, and many others. My main concern is that email storage be in a robust format that does not put everything in one huge file. These formats are especially sweet to use in conjunction with Time Machine backup. You never have to worry about lost mail. The only seriously wrong email client is Microsoft's Outlook/Entourage which persists in using PST. Just a stupid way to do it. Bad engineering. It's just like those SQL databases! All that data in one file! Horrors! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
On Aug 1, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Gruber is an MFB. All he is doing is confirming your biases. Gruber is not a MFB. He often takes Apple to task. You seem to think that mere knowledge of Macs makes someone a fan boi. I see that in your mind only a know-nothing can be relied on to see Macs objectively. You attack on Gruber just shows how far out from reality you are. As I wrote earlier, when I was reading about the birthers it was déjà vu. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Finally an FCC that earns its keep
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/01/ AR2009080101074.html Right about now, Apple probably wishes it had never rejected Google Voice and related apps from the iPhone. Or maybe it was ATT who rejected the apps. Nobody really knows. But the FCC launched an investigation last night to find out, sending letters to all three companies (Apple, ATT, and Google) asking them to explain exactly what happened. The iPhone needs to be smashed open, and the FCC is swinging the hammer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Gubmint computer grab
Glenn claims you better not visit cars.gov (Cash for Clunkers) website, or the feds will own your computer. I am unable to reproduce his claims. (5 mins) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWs12ccbOiE * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
Gruber is not a MFB. He often takes Apple to task. You seem to think that mere knowledge of Macs makes someone a fan boi. Sure, Tom, sure, whatever you say. When sturdy and dependable right-wingers, like Buchannan and Limbaugh, criticized Bush during his presidency, they weren't being Republicans. I see that in your mind only a know-nothing can be relied on to see Macs objectively. That's a good start. Considering with which the fanatical zealotry that Appleistas typically defend their platform, I'm surprised that you can't see the wisdom in that. I'll bet you expect Yankees fans to be objective about baseball too. You attack on Gruber just shows how far out from reality you are. As I wrote earlier, when I was reading about the birthers it was déjà vu. Is this all you've got? Demagoguery? Tarring with dumb, broad brushes? Projecting your own cheap, rhetorical tricks on everyone else? I know better by now than to expect you to actually argue from a position of facts and knowledge. You are, if nothing else, the true master of irony. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Well-thought analysis of MSFT ...
On Aug 1, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Jeff Wright wrote: Gruber is an MFB. All he is doing is confirming your biases. Then Tom wrote: You attack on Gruber just shows how far out from reality you are. Seriously? This is an attack? Really? Just how tender are your sensibilities? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Linus Torvalds: Microsoft hatred is a disease
I would call it Windows Derangement Syndrome. http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/linus-torvalds-microsoft-hatre d-is-a-disease.ars The quoted article is quite interesting. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
