Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
The problem was it wasn't his logic it was someone else's logic. That is the problem with these sort of organizational reworks- what is logical for some is a muddle for others. They probably need a way to rearrange ribbons to fit individual work flows. I guess I could be kind and say that you just use a different kind of logic. Like the elementary school teacher who says Johnny is not bad at math, he just uses a different kind of math. That kind of thinking was a part of the Great Society. But I'm no bleeding heart Liberal. When somebody screws up I think the best course is to give them the message and urge them back on the path of righteousness. MS has badly screwed up with the architecture of Office. We used to start training classes with a bird's eye view to give students a framework for what we were going to cover in class. So I know the problem from close observation and careful note taking. We kept having to edit the pages on the logic of the programs to add more and more illogical exceptions. Then we just gave up. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
MS has badly screwed up with the architecture of Office. We used to start training classes with a bird's eye view to give students a framework for what we were going to cover in class. So I know the problem from close observation and careful note taking. We kept having to edit the pages on the logic of the programs to add more and more illogical exceptions. Then we just gave up. You just need to turn off the switch labeled The way we've always done it. Maybe the 4 year-old from the I'm a PC commercial could lend a hand to help you work around your logic. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
Intuitive is just another word for, in with the new, same as the old. On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Fred Holmes f...@his.com wrote: At 05:14 PM 3/25/2009, Chris Dunford wrote: Do you have any data to confirm that the public thinks this, particularly of Office, which is what we're talking about? I'm always leery of any opinions ascribed to the public. I'll bet the sample is always very small and is not representative of the public. One size does not fit all. All applications need to be highly configurable, and the configuration process needs to be intuitive. g Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good (or always bad)
Intuitive is just another word for, in with the new, same as the old. Yes. Not long ago I was engaged in a blog comment war about climate change and one of the critics said, The global warming alarmists refuse to engage in the debate, that's how I know it's a hoax. Since climate scientists consistently respond at length and in detail to GW critics, the decoded meaning of that comment was, The global warming alarmists refuse to agree with me, that's how I know it's a hoax. I see this as the sort of same thing (less sinister, to be sure). Change isn't always good can be decoded as I spent months or even years memorizing where in this convoluted thing the commands I need are, so changing it is bad even if the changes make it easier to use in the long run (not to mention benefitting NEW users). Reviewing the posts here, you'll find that very few are saying that the new interface is bad per se; the comments really come down to annoyance at having to invest some time learning the new organization. And that is understandable--but, in my view, counterproductive in the long term. (For the sake of completeness: there are other comments about Office being bloated in general, etc., but that's a different issue. I'm talking about the changed user interface, which was the original topic.) Another way to put it is that Change isn't always good also means Change isn't always bad. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
My Dad, who is in his early 70's, is taking a course on basic computer use, which covers Windows XP and the previous version of office. The latest version of office is loaded upon his home computer,however and he can't find any of the functions he needs to do his word processing, and that's nothing more basic than cutting, pasting, and saving. He finds that it is hard to figure out how to get things done. I've used MS products on different platforms since DOS and before Windows 95. I find it confusing and I can't locate the functions and features I need to get work done. I'm thrilled that there aren't 8 toolbars with 200 tiny icons that are too small and too numerous to pick out functions, but the groupings of the functions on the new interface are like they were slapped together without thinking about how they are used to get work done. I could see people having trouble going from a non gui to a gui, like the original WordPerfect to the graphical versions of word processors. Here, however the graphical interface is already in place. There's nothing about the changes that makes it more usable or improves functionality and accomplishes the task quicker or better. If you give it to grade school kids and force them to use it for the next ten years they may figure it out, but that would be because that's what they were told to use, not because it is more intuitive. Just because it's not the old interface doesn't make it a better interface, it's just not the old interface. I don't know what the public thinks. I don't know what new users think. I find it needlessly painful and difficult to use. I think it's a disservice to make a product less useful and charge money for it. But, that's just our experience in our household. Date:Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:16:37 -0400 From:Chris Dunford ch...@covesoftware.com Subject: Re: Change isn't always good OK, so what you have is from your own experience only, and exclusively with people who used older versions. You don't have any data to back up your claim that the public thinks Office 2007 is confusing, bloated, and slow, which is what I wanted to know. One other point is that, from what you said, you have little or no experience with what new users, starting fresh with 2007, think. It's possible that the ribbon interface is far more intuitive and easier to use for them--your experience doesn't appear to provide that perspective. don't demand that everyone else just doesn't know what they like... or what works best for them. Looked over my messages, did not find any demand like that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
You don't say *which* version, so I must suspect it isn't Office 2007, because if it was, you'd see right on the Home tab to the left in big size Paste, Cut, Copy, etc. All right out in the open, not hidden away behind menus. I can't imagine what would be easier for novices. Of course, it's _your_ duty to keep telling him the shortcuts for these things. Shortcuts that haven't changed in 20 years. ctrl-x, ctrl-v, ctrl-s. I have no idea what can be done about a course that insists on covering outdated software. I know the interns we get from the local school system are still using versions about 3-5 years old - a very long time in computer years. On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 7:29 AM, rocky lee ghostwheel...@yahoo.com wrote: My Dad, who is in his early 70's, is taking a course on basic computer use, which covers Windows XP and the previous version of office. The latest version of office is loaded upon his home computer,however and he can't find any of the functions he needs to do his word processing, and that's nothing more basic than cutting, pasting, and saving. He finds that it is hard to figure out how to get things done. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good (or always bad)
The Global Warming alarmists etc. I used this as an analogy, not as a call for a new topic of discussion. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
you'd see right on the Home tab to the left in big size Paste, Cut, Copy, etc. All right out in the open, not hidden away behind menus. I can't imagine what would be easier for novices. Yes, Cut/Copy/Paste is a great example of something that is far more obvious in 2007 than in earlier versions yet is still judged hard to find. It isn't hard to find at all--it's the first button group in the first ribbon, and it's big. It's just not where it used to be. I think one poster said that MS should have included an option to use the old interface, and *that* strikes me as a very reasonable observation. They could have done that but frozen it, providing access to new features only via the new interface. That would have allowed for a smoother transition. But I honestly don't get what amounts to a you can't change anything, ever view of the user interface. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
You don't say *which* version, so I must suspect it isn't Office 2007, because if it was, you'd see right on the Home tab to the left in big size Paste, Cut, Copy, etc. All right out in the open, not hidden away behind menus. I can't imagine what would be easier for novices. Of course, it's _your_ duty to keep telling him the shortcuts for these things. Shortcuts that haven't changed in 20 years. ctrl-x, ctrl-v, ctrl-s. I find Tom's claim that the buttons aren't arranged in any kind of logical order to be lacking of any merit. Looking at the ribbon in Word I see: Home : Insert : Page layout : References : Mailings : Review (Home should be labeled as Format, but you see that first by default) With the exception of Home, all are clearly defined, functional headings, not generalized menus such as tools and edit. My complaint about earlier versions Office was that the toolbars were superfluous; everything could be accomplished by the menus and not every menu command had a corresponding button in the default settings (yes, I know you can customize that). The rather small toolbar buttons, with their 16-bit icons, were just faster for some functions, but you still had to go to the menu for many other commands. FWIW, I hated the dynamic menus in Office XP and 2003 that would only show you some of the commands and required a second click to see all of the menu commands for that heading. Just show me the damn commands! (Yes, I always turned that off.) The ribbon did away with this by combining both the menu and the toolbars and replaced it with larger buttons and better visual cues. I think that the quick bar should be populated out-of-the-box with all of the common commands: print, open, close, redo, undo, etc., but you can very easily add those buttons. The change in Word showing you style changes on the fly is a very good change, as is the ghost toolbar that comes up in the body next to highlighted text for formatting changes when you highlight text. You can also change the ribbon to be minimized and sorta regain menu-like functionality. Yes, you do need to get used to the new design, yes, it can be frustrating and I still find myself hunting, but anyone that uses it regularly for long periods of the day will adjust and Microsoft will be incorporating the ribbon design into most of their products (their money is where their mouth is). There are major design flaws, such as in Excel where you cannot prevent the updating of linked cells, no matter what you do, and the Trust Center, which is just bizarre. I also think that the page layout ribbon is inferior to the older menu command dialog. But, the visual content design elements that have been added, and the presentation of them in the ribbon, are very nice, IMO, and can be used to great effect by a skilled user (and used to a nauseating effect by a n00b). Change is good when there is a purpose to the change. There is a defined and worthy purpose here, but as everything else in the world, not everyone will like it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
At 09:23 AM 3/26/2009, Chris Dunford wrote: Yes, Cut/Copy/Paste is a great example of something that is far more obvious in 2007 than in earlier versions yet is still judged hard to find. It isn't hard to find at all--it's the first button group in the first ribbon, and it's big. It's just not where it used to be. Lots of things become hidden in plain sight. It happens all the time. Since I always use the keyboard shortcuts for these functions, and occasionally the menu, I have no idea what the toolbar (ribbon) button for cut, copy, paste look like. Most icons are not intuitive to me on first use. Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
At 09:33 AM 3/26/2009, Jeff Wright wrote: but anyone that uses it regularly for long periods of the day will adjust Many, most of us don't (use it regularly for long periods of the day). How do you accommodate those who don't? Hire secretaries to do everyone's word processing? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
Lots of things become hidden in plain sight. It happens all the time. Since I always use the keyboard shortcuts for these functions, and occasionally the menu, I have no idea what the toolbar (ribbon) button for cut, copy, paste look like. Most icons are not intuitive to me on first use. Look for the icons labeled Cut, Copy, and Paste. :) (But if you always use keyboard shortcuts, why do you care? They haven't changed in forever.) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
Wow! Thanks for the Bean! It looks like a good solution for me. I also have TextWrangler [BBEdit Lite], mostly for its powerful search features. I can search my entire computer from TextWrangler, and do a better, faster job than Find or Spotlight. I still use AppleWorks 6.2.9 in OS X, 10.5.6. That certainly shows the quality of Apple's programming, both OS and app, that a program that hasn't been updated since 2003. One of my main gripes with Microsoft Word, and Office, is that it's excessive, and excessively expensive. I use many more features of Word than most users have even know about, and that's still less than 60% of its features. A stripped down version of Office is all that most users need, but written better than MS Works. How many people create locked documents with form fields that save data in a separate file? How often do most users embed tables that contain calculations? I can do that in AppleWorks [not the form fields, though], but I don't have to deal with all of the tool bars that are enough to cover up the documents. I haven't used the ribbon in W'07, but I suspect that they haven't reduced the number of items that were in the toolbars, and haven't made them simpler or more user friendly, only easier to find--just my guess. I'd learn more about the Ribbon, but I don't want to install Silverlight to view the demo. I already have Flash and don't want to install any unnecessary redundant software. The demise of Appleworks is to me inexplicable. It's difficult to imagine that even if the application required a complete rewrite to be an ongoing product that it would have been significantly more costly or less profitable than the resources that went into Pages and Numbers. I still use Appleworks for most of my day to day productivity tasks on my current MacBook Pro - seven computers and four operating systems after I first used the program. I have discovered Bean ( www.bean-osx.com ) to be a handy word processor leveraging the text handling tools in OS X.4. I use MS Office entirely as reader applications to open .doc, .xls and the occasional and execrable Powerpoint document sent to me by clients - never to create content. With the advent of the .docx file format which can only be opened with OpenOffice on a Mac - not by any Microsoft program - my motivation for spending a dime with Microsoft has diminished to nil. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com wrote: You don't say *which* version, so I must suspect it isn't Office 2007, because if it was, you'd see right on the Home tab to the left in big size Paste, Cut, Copy, etc. All right out in the open, not hidden away behind menus. I can't imagine what would be easier for novices. Of course, it's _your_ duty to keep telling him the shortcuts for these things. Shortcuts that haven't changed in 20 years. ctrl-x, ctrl-v, ctrl-s. I find Tom's claim that the buttons aren't arranged in any kind of logical order to be lacking of any merit. Looking at the ribbon in Word I see: The problem was it wasn't his logic it was someone else's logic. That is the problem with these sort of organizational reworks- what is logical for some is a muddle for others. They probably need a way to rearrange ribbons to fit individual work flows. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Chris Dunford ch...@covesoftware.comwrote: you'd see right on the Home tab to the left in big size Paste, Cut, Copy, etc. All right out in the open, not hidden away behind menus. I can't imagine what would be easier for novices. Yes, Cut/Copy/Paste is a great example of something that is far more obvious in 2007 than in earlier versions yet is still judged hard to find. It isn't hard to find at all--it's the first button group in the first ribbon, and it's big. It's just not where it used to be. I think one poster said that MS should have included an option to use the old interface, and *that* strikes me as a very reasonable observation. They could have done that but frozen it, providing access to new features only via the new interface. That would have allowed for a smoother transition. But I honestly don't get what amounts to a you can't change anything, ever view of the user interface. I think a fixed baseline interface for the primary functions of a word processor would be appreciated. How often did they add new keys/features to a typewriter? -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Change isn't always good [was: Office 2007]
What MS forgot, was we spent years learning how to use their Word Processor and were quite happy with it. We did not ask them to change the menu system on it. They also forgot that they once had a very good word processor that was very logical and easy to use. They have steadily crapped it up. I dread each new release. Very sad because I used to be a big fan of MS Word and was always recommending it. No more. Word used to be an excellent program, except for the crashing and bugs in some versions. As long as you save and backup frequently, Word is an extremely powerful program--now and ten years ago. When they make changes that don't improve the interface or execution, it's pointless to update since the chage is to sell a new version, rather than to improve the program. Adobe has done the same. They added a lot of junk to Photoshop when they finally bought it instead of simply being the distributor. They changed Pagemaker so that it became almost unrecognizable. They dumped user-friendly FreeHand in favor of user-hostile Illustrator when they bought Macromedia. Apple has made the same kind of changes where their original software worked just fine. Pages is not a good replacement for basic AppleWorks. TextEdit is not longer a text editor; saving as *.txt isn't choice. New and improved in software often means changes that increase profit and reduce productivity, just as in advertising. I always read the fine print for products that are labeled new and improved. They usually have less contents andmore filler. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good [was: Office 2007]
Betty you are so right. When I was first into computers a new company started marketing a Bible for the computer. Called it Quick Verse. Company had integrity and sold a good product. When Windows came out helped you upgrade your program to a Windows version, and then improved and sold a new version and offered you some money off to upgrade. Slowly upgraded it and kept improving it, with customer input. They also developed some other software for churches that was useful. They had also developed a tax program called Tax Edge that was super good, and originally was a DOS based program then came out with Windows program. Very good program and well priced. When MS lost out on a bid to buy Intuit to add it's muscle to their coffers, Intuit bought out Parsons, and killed the tax program and slowly dismantled the company. Now I get flyers to buy the new and improved Quick Verse almost every year. It is not better (They might add a throwaway electronic book with it, public domain or similar) just repackaged every year to try and get you to purchase and upgrade and keep their money flow going. Our churches publishing company has found this out and is hawking a program to churches that is paid on a subscription status every year. Keeps the money flowing and makes the bookkeepers happy. Stewart At 10:38 AM 3/25/2009, you wrote: Word used to be an excellent program, except for the crashing and bugs in some versions. As long as you save and backup frequently, Word is an extremely powerful program--now and ten years ago. When they make changes that don't improve the interface or execution, it's pointless to update since the chage is to sell a new version, rather than to improve the program. Adobe has done the same. They added a lot of junk to Photoshop when they finally bought it instead of simply being the distributor. They changed Pagemaker so that it became almost unrecognizable. They dumped user-friendly FreeHand in favor of user-hostile Illustrator when they bought Macromedia. Apple has made the same kind of changes where their original software worked just fine. Pages is not a good replacement for basic AppleWorks. TextEdit is not longer a text editor; saving as *.txt isn't choice. New and improved in software often means changes that increase profit and reduce productivity, just as in advertising. I always read the fine print for products that are labeled new and improved. They usually have less contents andmore filler. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
The demise of Appleworks is to me inexplicable. It's difficult to imagine that even if the application required a complete rewrite to be an ongoing product that it would have been significantly more costly or less profitable than the resources that went into Pages and Numbers. I still use Appleworks for most of my day to day productivity tasks on my current MacBook Pro - seven computers and four operating systems after I first used the program. I have discovered Bean ( www.bean-osx.com ) to be a handy word processor leveraging the text handling tools in OS X.4. I use MS Office entirely as reader applications to open .doc, .xls and the occasional and execrable Powerpoint document sent to me by clients - never to create content. With the advent of the .docx file format which can only be opened with OpenOffice on a Mac - not by any Microsoft program - my motivation for spending a dime with Microsoft has diminished to nil. At 11:38 AM -0400 3/25/09, b_s-wilk wrote: Apple has made the same kind of changes where their original software worked just fine. Pages is not a good replacement for basic AppleWorks. TextEdit is not longer a text editor; saving as *.txt isn't choice. -- E. Riley Casey Silver Spring MD 301-608-2180 ph 301-608-0789 fx 301-440-2923 shoe phone Entertainment Sound Production ( http://www.ESPsound.com ) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
I know from an interview I heard with one of the developers on MS office that almost all the features MS would get requests for were already in the product. One of the reasons for developing the ribbon was to increase the chances of users getting more out of office. Those here notwithstanding, most reviews were positive towards the change.Change isn't always good, but it isn't always bad either. On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:35 PM, E. Riley Casey rileyca...@espsound.comwrote: The demise of Appleworks is to me inexplicable. It's difficult to imagine that even if the application required a complete rewrite to be an ongoing product that it would have been significantly more costly or less profitable than the resources that went into Pages and Numbers. I still use Appleworks for most of my day to day productivity tasks on my current MacBook Pro - seven computers and four operating systems after I first used the program. I have discovered Bean ( www.bean-osx.com ) to be a handy word processor leveraging the text handling tools in OS X.4. I use MS Office entirely as reader applications to open .doc, .xls and the occasional and execrable Powerpoint document sent to me by clients - never to create content. With the advent of the .docx file format which can only be opened with OpenOffice on a Mac - not by any Microsoft program - my motivation for spending a dime with Microsoft has diminished to nil. At 11:38 AM -0400 3/25/09, b_s-wilk wrote: Apple has made the same kind of changes where their original software worked just fine. Pages is not a good replacement for basic AppleWorks. TextEdit is not longer a text editor; saving as *.txt isn't choice. -- E. Riley Casey Silver Spring MD 301-608-2180 ph 301-608-0789 fx 301-440-2923 shoe phone Entertainment Sound Production ( http://www.ESPsound.com ) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
Step back a get a little perspective. If it walks like a duck, smells like a duck and quacks like a duck ... it's a DUCK ! MS is consistent in it's mediocrity and the public's opinion is also notably consistent. Office 07, Vista, Explorer. Needlessly confusing, bloated, slow... Think about it ... MS hasn't done anything notably good or innovative for years ... why should Office be any different. Now that there are viable alternatives to their products, you watch and see if their economic fortunes and deep pockets don't take the huge hit they deserve. Best thing they could do would be to get rid of raging bull Balmer. db mike wrote: I know from an interview I heard with one of the developers on MS office that almost all the features MS would get requests for were already in the product. One of the reasons for developing the ribbon was to increase the chances of users getting more out of office. Those here notwithstanding, most reviews were positive towards the change.Change isn't always good, but it isn't always bad either. On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:35 PM, E. Riley Casey rileyca...@espsound.comwrote: The demise of Appleworks is to me inexplicable. It's difficult to imagine that even if the application required a complete rewrite to be an ongoing product that it would have been significantly more costly or less profitable than the resources that went into Pages and Numbers. I still use Appleworks for most of my day to day productivity tasks on my current MacBook Pro - seven computers and four operating systems after I first used the program. I have discovered Bean ( www.bean-osx.com ) to be a handy word processor leveraging the text handling tools in OS X.4. I use MS Office entirely as reader applications to open .doc, .xls and the occasional and execrable Powerpoint document sent to me by clients - never to create content. With the advent of the .docx file format which can only be opened with OpenOffice on a Mac - not by any Microsoft program - my motivation for spending a dime with Microsoft has diminished to nil. At 11:38 AM -0400 3/25/09, b_s-wilk wrote: Apple has made the same kind of changes where their original software worked just fine. Pages is not a good replacement for basic AppleWorks. TextEdit is not longer a text editor; saving as *.txt isn't choice. -- E. Riley Casey Silver Spring MD 301-608-2180 ph 301-608-0789 fx 301-440-2923 shoe phone Entertainment Sound Production ( http://www.ESPsound.com ) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 3:54 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: I know from an interview I heard with one of the developers on MS office that almost all the features MS would get requests for were already in the product. One of the reasons for developing the ribbon was to increase the chances of users getting more out of office. Those here notwithstanding, most reviews were positive towards the change.Change isn't always good, but it isn't always bad either. I wonder if it would have been possible to layer the ribbon interface over the classic interface so that it could work either way. I'm sort of picking up M$ Office a fresh after about five years using Open Office. The only real reason for me to switch was that switching files back and forth between OO and M$ was munging up page layouts for work. I've used M$ Office on and off for years so I'm starting from my twenty yard line instead of the goal line. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
MS is consistent in it's mediocrity and the public's opinion is also notably consistent. Office 07, Vista, Explorer. Needlessly confusing, bloated, slow... Do you have any data to confirm that the public thinks this, particularly of Office, which is what we're talking about? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
Most of the organizations I have relations with ( University of Washington, Law offices, Design firms, etc ) either don't want to upgrade from Office 2003 or having upgraded, turned around and downgraded if they are allowed to. Although I live in Seattle, I live or work in the real world ... not the MS bubble. Time is money and MS's newer products are real time wasters for people wanting to get things done. I can't say I have ever heard anyone who prefers MS's latest offerings over their earlier ones other than the security aspects.Many people put up with them ... but that's about it. But everything and everyone has its die hard advocates. Sounds like you are one. If MS's new toys work better for you... that's a good thing ... but don't demand that everyone else just doesn't know what they like... or what works best for them. Consensus isn't hard to spot... and MS's sinking profits won't be either... db Chris Dunford wrote: MS is consistent in it's mediocrity and the public's opinion is also notably consistent. Office 07, Vista, Explorer. Needlessly confusing, bloated, slow... Do you have any data to confirm that the public thinks this, particularly of Office, which is what we're talking about? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
I can't say I have ever heard anyone who prefers MS's latest offerings over their earlier ones other than the security aspects.Many people put up with them ... but that's about it. OK, so what you have is from your own experience only, and exclusively with people who used older versions. You don't have any data to back up your claim that the public thinks Office 2007 is confusing, bloated, and slow, which is what I wanted to know. One other point is that, from what you said, you have little or no experience with what new users, starting fresh with 2007, think. It's possible that the ribbon interface is far more intuitive and easier to use for them--your experience doesn't appear to provide that perspective. don't demand that everyone else just doesn't know what they like... or what works best for them. Looked over my messages, did not find any demand like that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Change isn't always good
At 05:14 PM 3/25/2009, Chris Dunford wrote: Do you have any data to confirm that the public thinks this, particularly of Office, which is what we're talking about? I'm always leery of any opinions ascribed to the public. I'll bet the sample is always very small and is not representative of the public. One size does not fit all. All applications need to be highly configurable, and the configuration process needs to be intuitive. g Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
