subject:"\[CGUYS\] Revealed Truth"

That base is not nearly as broad as that of The Nation,
many whose supporters are not wealthy.

Thank you. Why am I not surprised that I was being mislead? Maybe the 
cons/neocons predilection for enhanced interrogarion comes from their 
knowledge that they would otherwise never tell the truth.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread mike

So the choice is to read one mag who supports enhanced interrogation, or one
that thought Joe was a great guy when he was killing as many as 20,000
Russians a month?

On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 That base is not nearly as broad as that of The Nation,
 many whose supporters are not wealthy.

 Thank you. Why am I not surprised that I was being mislead? Maybe the
 cons/neocons predilection for enhanced interrogarion comes from their
 knowledge that they would otherwise never tell the truth.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

So the choice is to read one mag who supports enhanced interrogation, or one
that thought Joe was a great guy when he was killing as many as 20,000
Russians a month?

Those evil Ruskies are out to get us! OMG there's one under your bed!!


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

How do you budget for finding a new energy source? Would we have  
electric light bulbs if Edison would have been on a budget? I know he  
probably funded it himself, but after the first 100 tries he'd cut  
himself off we'd be sitting in the dark. And I think fusion research  
is about a million times more advanced then the light bulb.

Success with fusion would certainly have a big payoff and would be a 
world changer, yet the costs and risks are not something any private 
corporation could absorb. 

Fusion is also not something that we would want any private corporation 
to own. Whoever controls fusion has a very good chance of controlling the 
world.

Think of those massive profits that Exxon/OPEC/etc are racking up. Now 
think what would happen if energy became essentially limitless and cost 
essentially zero. What is that worth? What is it worth to some to make 
sure it never happens?


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread Jeff Wright

 Thank you. Why am I not surprised that I was being mislead? 

Gosh, I didn't memorize their founding date and they possibly made a profit
4 out of 144 years.  

Go on Tom, put on The Who's Won't Get Fooled Again and crank it up.
You've clearly earned it.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread mike

Think of those massive profits Al Gore has been racking up..and all those
watermelons who back him...GE stands to make a lot of that cash the Big O is
printing for our own little Weimar.

On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:


 Think of those massive profits that Exxon/OPEC/etc are racking up. Now
 think what would happen if energy became essentially limitless and cost
 essentially zero. What is that worth? What is it worth to some to make
 sure it never happens?


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread mike

We'll start with Soros and Buffetweird how the super rich are
lefties

On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz1b__MdtHY
 Long, but worth watching all the way through

 At the end Bill Black starts calling it a fundamental moral crisis.
 That has a ring of truth to it. No excuses like we live in an imperfect
 world here.

 This suggests an easy solution for paying for current financial bailouts.
 Arrest several hundred multi-billionaires and strip them of their
 ill-gotten assets, just like is currently being done with Madoff. That
 should net a few $trillion in spare change. Without enforcement of moral
 hazard these crooks will just keep doing what they have been doing.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

	Wow, I agree with Jeff W on something. Good scientists are the only  
truly objective people I've ever met. They are skeptical of  
everything and everyone.


Jeff M


On May 16, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:


Objective commentators


There is no such thing.  What you describe are people whose stated
conclusions match yours beliefs.

See confirmation bias.  Also see partisan ideologue.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread David K Watson


So the choice is to read one mag who supports enhanced
interrogation, or one that thought Joe was a great guy
when he was killing as many as 20,000 Russians a month?


I think that you have been confusing The Nation with The New
Republic.  The New Republic was was generally quite pro-soviet
until the cold war started, but I do not think that the same can be
said for The Nation.  Also, The New Republic's founding was
1917, closer to the 100 years you claimed for The Nation.

Just to play devil's advocate (because I think that you are
providing absurd alternatives), let's say that you are right, and
rephrase your question.  Should you choose a publication
that made a mistake 60 years ago, or one that has been
wrong much more recently?


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

	What? As an American, where is it my, or our job to protect Russians  
by performing torture on others who aren't attacking the USA?
	Sorry, but my feelings are that torture is torture. Try and rename  
it and rationalize it all you want. It still, with our history of  
wars and trials, a war crime for all who participated. I was just  
following orders, is a BS argument. As humans we are all born with  
this amazing thing, choice. The military is bound by legal orders.  
When torture is concerned that's been pretty much a no brainer.  
Ignoring established military conduct and USA law shows a complete  
contempt or disregard for USA laws and morals and the idea of right  
and wrong.
	If someone brings up 9/11, remember that old saying, 2 wrongs don't  
make a right.


Jeff M


On May 16, 2009, at 11:22 AM, mike wrote:

So the choice is to read one mag who supports enhanced  
interrogation, or one

that thought Joe was a great guy when he was killing as many as 20,000
Russians a month?

On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:


That base is not nearly as broad as that of The Nation,
many whose supporters are not wealthy.


Thank you. Why am I not surprised that I was being mislead? Maybe the
cons/neocons predilection for enhanced interrogarion comes from their
knowledge that they would otherwise never tell the truth.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread Rev. Stewart Marshall


Yes but two wrights made an airplane.

Lets bring this back to technology.

As area that most people will agree Americans tend to excel in and 
over rely on.


Stewart


At 06:19 PM 5/16/2009, you wrote:

If someone brings up 9/11, remember that old saying, 2 wrongs don't
make a right.

Jeff M


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread Matthew Taylor

The problem is the legal reasoning that says it was not torture is  
quite sound - the key being that as I understand it we did nothing  
that we do not do to our own servicemen in the resistance portion of  
SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) training.  If the  
assumption is that we are not torturing our own servicemen, then doing  
the same to others might be extremely poor judgement in the  
circumstances, might be held to be wrong for a variety of reasons, but  
it still would not be torture.


Matthew

On May 16, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Jeff Miles wrote:

	What? As an American, where is it my, or our job to protect  
Russians by performing torture on others who aren't attacking the USA?
	Sorry, but my feelings are that torture is torture. Try and rename  
it and rationalize it all you want. It still, with our history of  
wars and trials, a war crime for all who participated. I was just  
following orders, is a BS argument. As humans we are all born with  
this amazing thing, choice. The military is bound by legal orders.  
When torture is concerned that's been pretty much a no brainer.  
Ignoring established military conduct and USA law shows a complete  
contempt or disregard for USA laws and morals and the idea of right  
and wrong.
	If someone brings up 9/11, remember that old saying, 2 wrongs don't  
make a right.


Jeff M





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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

As area that most people will agree Americans tend to excel in and 
over rely on.

I hate to be disagreeable, but this is no longer something we excel at. 
While propaganda from the greedy corporations that stole our Internet 
will try to lull you into a false feeling of excellence, these days I 
don't think we even make the top ten.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread Jeff Wright

 This suggests an easy solution for paying for current financial
 bailouts.
 Arrest several hundred multi-billionaires and strip them of their
 ill-gotten assets, just like is currently being done with Madoff. That
 should net a few $trillion in spare change. Without enforcement of
 moral
 hazard these crooks will just keep doing what they have been doing.

Or, you know, let the companies that should have failed, fail.  Presto!  No
moral hazard.

Nah, better to man the barricades and fan the flames of class warfare.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

	Wow, a true convert and believer in the neocon shell game. Where's  
the truth?


Jeff M


On May 16, 2009, at 1:39 PM, mike wrote:

Think of those massive profits Al Gore has been racking up..and all  
those
watermelons who back him...GE stands to make a lot of that cash the  
Big O is

printing for our own little Weimar.

On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:



Think of those massive profits that Exxon/OPEC/etc are racking up.  
Now
think what would happen if energy became essentially limitless and  
cost
essentially zero. What is that worth? What is it worth to some to  
make

sure it never happens?


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

	Interesting. I never thought of Buffet as a lefty, but rather a  
realist.
	This is something that turns me away from politics. If you don't  
believe my way you're either a neocon or a lefty. Whatever happened  
to independent thinkers? I believe many are out there, but one party  
or the other doesn't want you to believe it.


Jeff M


On May 16, 2009, at 1:46 PM, mike wrote:


We'll start with Soros and Buffetweird how the super rich are
lefties

On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz1b__MdtHY
Long, but worth watching all the way through


At the end Bill Black starts calling it a fundamental moral crisis.
That has a ring of truth to it. No excuses like we live in an  
imperfect

world here.

This suggests an easy solution for paying for current financial  
bailouts.

Arrest several hundred multi-billionaires and strip them of their
ill-gotten assets, just like is currently being done with Madoff.  
That
should net a few $trillion in spare change. Without enforcement of  
moral

hazard these crooks will just keep doing what they have been doing.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

	Yes, I've heard this argument, and it's stupid. Because we torture  
our own servicemen and call it training doesn't change what it is.  
However, it is a good game. I wonder how many other definitions we  
can change to suit our legal needs?


Jeff M


On May 16, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote:

The problem is the legal reasoning that says it was not torture is  
quite sound - the key being that as I understand it we did nothing  
that we do not do to our own servicemen in the resistance portion  
of SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) training.  If  
the assumption is that we are not torturing our own servicemen,  
then doing the same to others might be extremely poor judgement in  
the circumstances, might be held to be wrong for a variety of  
reasons, but it still would not be torture.


Matthew

On May 16, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Jeff Miles wrote:

	What? As an American, where is it my, or our job to protect  
Russians by performing torture on others who aren't attacking the  
USA?
	Sorry, but my feelings are that torture is torture. Try and  
rename it and rationalize it all you want. It still, with our  
history of wars and trials, a war crime for all who participated.  
I was just following orders, is a BS argument. As humans we are  
all born with this amazing thing, choice. The military is bound by  
legal orders. When torture is concerned that's been pretty much  
a no brainer. Ignoring established military conduct and USA law  
shows a complete contempt or disregard for USA laws and morals and  
the idea of right and wrong.
	If someone brings up 9/11, remember that old saying, 2 wrongs  
don't make a right.


Jeff M





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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread Matthew Taylor

The law in an ass, and always has been as it is an imperfect creation  
of an imperfect institution put in pl;ace by imperfect beings.   
Nevertheless, the law determines what is legal.  Either you argue that  
every POTUS, ever chairman of the Joint Cheifs, and much of the senior  
command staff are criminals because they approved and implemented SERE  
and SERE = torture, or you can not argue that identical practices are  
criminal torture.  There are many places where the common usage  
definition of a term does not match the legal definition, but in  
matters of law it is the legal definition that is controlling.


Matthew


On May 16, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Jeff Miles wrote:

	Yes, I've heard this argument, and it's stupid. Because we torture  
our own servicemen and call it training doesn't change what it is.  
However, it is a good game. I wonder how many other definitions we  
can change to suit our legal needs?


Jeff M


On May 16, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote:

The problem is the legal reasoning that says it was not torture is  
quite sound - the key being that as I understand it we did nothing  
that we do not do to our own servicemen in the resistance portion  
of SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) training.  If  
the assumption is that we are not torturing our own servicemen,  
then doing the same to others might be extremely poor judgement in  
the circumstances, might be held to be wrong for a variety of  
reasons, but it still would not be torture.


Matthew




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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-16 Thread b_s-wilk


That base is not nearly as broad as that of The Nation,
many whose supporters are not wealthy.


Thank you. Why am I not surprised that I was being mislead? Maybe the 
cons/neocons predilection for enhanced interrogarion comes from their 
knowledge that they would otherwise never tell the truth.



Interesting editorial in Barron's [the arrogant, pompous, masters of the 
universe 'entertainment' investment mag] last week is on true 
capitalism, vs. rampant greed. Financial suicide is a bad business 
model. Greed is a bad business model. Creating value and making 
customers happy works much better.



MONDAY, MAY 11, 2009
EDITORIAL COMMENTARY
Time for Empathetic Capitalism
By SHLOMO MAITAL
True capitalism is based on generosity, not greed.

...When capitalists build businesses that create enormous value for 
people far beyond the cost of the resources they use, they prosper. But 
they can only do this if they have empathy for other people and their 
needs, as Henry Ford did, and if they seek with energy and creativity to 
provide what people want and need.


Capitalists thrive only when their profit margin generates a customer's 
margin. That is when the capitalist's reward for producing roughly 
matches the value of the customer's satisfaction beyond the price paid. 
In these difficult times we should try genuine capitalism, as Adam Smith 
explained it in The Theory of Moral Sentiments...


http://tinyurl.com/or8frb



The same issue rates Barron's 500 top companies this year, with 
MasterCard at #1, RIM #6, Western Digital #7, Oracle #8, Apple #9, 
Google #14, Qualcomm #15, http://tinyurl.com/o2hvvv.


Betty


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

	And so legally you twist the definition because certain members of  
the military agreed to have it done to them with their training. What  
contract did the prisoners at Guantanamo(sp) sign? And what about the  
law against any contract under duress? The argument is BS.


Jeff M


On May 16, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote:

The law in an ass, and always has been as it is an imperfect  
creation of an imperfect institution put in pl;ace by imperfect  
beings.  Nevertheless, the law determines what is legal.  Either  
you argue that every POTUS, ever chairman of the Joint Cheifs, and  
much of the senior command staff are criminals because they  
approved and implemented SERE and SERE = torture, or you can not  
argue that identical practices are criminal torture.  There are  
many places where the common usage definition of a term does not  
match the legal definition, but in matters of law it is the legal  
definition that is controlling.


Matthew


On May 16, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Jeff Miles wrote:

	Yes, I've heard this argument, and it's stupid. Because we  
torture our own servicemen and call it training doesn't change  
what it is. However, it is a good game. I wonder how many other  
definitions we can change to suit our legal needs?


Jeff M


On May 16, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Matthew Taylor wrote:

The problem is the legal reasoning that says it was not torture  
is quite sound - the key being that as I understand it we did  
nothing that we do not do to our own servicemen in the resistance  
portion of SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape)  
training.  If the assumption is that we are not torturing our own  
servicemen, then doing the same to others might be extremely poor  
judgement in the circumstances, might be held to be wrong for a  
variety of reasons, but it still would not be torture.


Matthew




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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-15 Thread Jeff Wright

 So we must wait for the crumbs to fall from the rich man's table? Mr.
 Moneybags you are a real sweetheart.

You must be waiting for the nice ladies down at the DMV to come up with the
next technological breakthrough.

Sure, I don't have a problem with the wealthy being an integral part of our
economy.  I'm grateful when my .org is supported by the selfless donations
of wealthy patrons in the DC area.  We couldn't open our doors without their
philanthropy, which can be said of almost all non-profits.  

The Nation magazine has been completely dependent on a wealthy benefactor
since it started publishing 100 years ago.  It has yet to make one dime of
profit on its own and would have gone out of business decades ago otherwise.

So, the next time you root through your stack of yellowing issues of
Jurassic-era thinkers for your next demagogic spew, thank the rich for your
Bizarro-world beliefs.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-15 Thread Tom Piwowar

Why aren't these  
people under arrest who where charged with over seeing this kind of  
stuff and chose to ignore it? Or weren't smart enough to see it even  
when they were told it was going on?

Because they were too busy executing their insider trades.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-15 Thread mike

And now they are too busy being promoted.

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 Why aren't these
 people under arrest who where charged with over seeing this kind of
 stuff and chose to ignore it? Or weren't smart enough to see it even
 when they were told it was going on?

 Because they were too busy executing their insider trades.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-15 Thread Tom Piwowar

He was a moral absolutist.  However much we try and move his message 
into the secular realm he first and foremost was always speaking of 
the spiritual realm.  We live in a corrupt society (in more ways than 
one) and we will never see perfection here.

Always speaking of the spiritual realm. That's not the Jesus I know. If 
that were true I don't see why He would have bothered taking His road 
show to Earth. However, I can see how it would be a convenient position 
for the business office to take. We spout the Lord's Prayer, but believe 
it starts off with a bunch of bull, empty words designed to extract 
oblations from the easily deceived. But the real bucks must come from 
what is implied by we live in a corrupt society. That lets you look the 
other way as all sorts of atrocities are perpetrated while accepting 
considerations from evil doers in exchange for dispensation. Nice work if 
you can get it, Elmer.

So do you have a better way?  Let us all know.  By the way the 
opposite of Free Market is Socialism (on the scale)  Are we talking 
about degrees here?

Only for those who live in a 2-dimensional world with resting places 
located at only the two extremes. Objective commentators have described 
the Bush policy on anti-trust as the most extreme interpretation of the 
law ever observed. We've had to rely on foreigh courts to enforce 
principles of US law.

The type of government we have is never proscribed in scriptures.  It 
is what we choose.  It is what we make it..

There is a difference between a government run by mullas and one informed 
by the Scriptures. Again I see you failing to recognize that there are 
choices other than the 2 extremes.

Jesus did advocate fairness and justice.  Those need to be exercised by all.

That only has meaning if backed by action. We live in a corrupt society 
does not cut it. Fixing the corrupt practices of the past and resolving 
to act justly in the future should be commended. Condemning those who 
seek to act justly is shocking.

Monopolies need to be combated, comprehensive broadband supported, 
network neutrality nurtured, the RIAA cartel vanquished, etc, etc.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 That's what happens when governments abdicate their responsibility to
 govern. The so-called free market is full of such outrageous
 examples.
 Another one is the US nonexistent broadband policy.

Please, enlighten us as to how a guvmint backed monopoly is a free market.

Are you sure you know what a free market is?


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 Even when the politican appoints respected scientists and technologists
 to fill science and technology posts?
 
 Maybe you are stuck in the past? The cons/neocons are no longer running
 the show.

Oh, that's right, I forgot that the *right* people are in charge now.

No, no one will ever use that power you so happily give them for something
you oppose.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 But ah, the money to be made in Miami SUPPRESSING solar water heating
 was and is, HUGE and continuous; and concentrated solely in the hands
 of The Florida Power and Light Company.

IOW, the market was interfered with by a guvmint backed monopoly.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 The market didn't work at all. MS's monopoly prevented the market from
 working. Without competition, IE was everywhere. When competition was
 allowed, through lawsuits and legislation--not the free market--MSIE
 finally had to compete with other better browsers, and was found to be
 inferior.

Seriously?  When competition was allowed?  Wow, the mental contortions you 
people go though to make your points.

I'm sure you will be able to show us just how MS made competition with them 
illegal.

 Propaganda and consolidation of media prevented accurate news and
 information about solar. While US investment in basic scientific
 research ['60s/'70s] resulted in solar applications for NASA, the
 nuclear and fossil fuel industries were spending millions to lie about
 solar energy. Photovoltaics, invented in the US, are now produced in
 Japan, Germany, France. The effective federal program to fund solar
 research and applications in the late 70s was ended once Reagan [owned
 by nuclear power industry] and Bush [petroleum] took office in 1980.
 Solar subsidies were discontinued, space research budget moved to star
 wars and nukes and oil subsidies went up.
 
 So much for the fantasy about the free market. It doesn't exist.
 Never
 did.

In a world where solar can't survive without direct guvmint subsidies, I agree 
with that statement.

You'd think that something so wonderful could operate in the energy market 
without constant federal support.

 Without politicians who care and understand enough to fund scientific
 research and applications, we might not have the Internet. No
 corporation would fund something like ARPANET, with no prospect of
 profit, or even that it would work at all.

Stopped clock and all.  And without a profit-driven market to recognize what 
such a resource could be, we, the public, would never have had an Internet.  
It would still be the realm of academia and military otherwise.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 I never understood how a project that is breaking new ground, doing
 something that has never been done before, can be held to an
 arbitrary schedule and budget. Has anyone ever done an analysis of
 the Manhattan project for schedule and budget? I guess you can say
 they met their schedule, as they finished the bombs before the war
 ended. But did they have a budget? Probably not.

Seriously?  You're comparing a crash program for atomic weapons while we're
at war to this?

The article made the points very well I thought:  giving an award to a
program $600,000,000 over budget and 8 years behind schedule is a bit much
to take, as is depending on politicians to advance science.  Oh sure,
they'll advance *some* science, usually the ones with the best connected
lobbyists and bidders or with the best photo ops.

Tom must be talking about Team Blue science.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)

I guess we can count on Jeff's whimpering politics for two full terms.
And whining at Tom on behalf of M$, regardless.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
 Even when the politican appoints respected scientists and 
 technologists to fill science and technology posts?
 
 Maybe you are stuck in the past? The cons/neocons are no longer 
 running the show.

Oh, that's right, I forgot that the *right* people are in charge now.

No, no one will ever use that power you so happily give them for
something you oppose.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 I guess we can count on Jeff's whimpering politics for two full terms.
 And whining at Tom on behalf of M$, regardless.

I guess we can count on Mark for missing the point.

Yet again.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)

Yet again.  Huh?; you had five posts this morning that all missed the
point - time and again. 

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
 I guess we can count on Jeff's whimpering politics for two full terms.
 And whining at Tom on behalf of M$, regardless.

I guess we can count on Mark for missing the point.

Yet again.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

You'd think that something so wonderful could operate in the energy market 
without constant federal support.

You are happy when the government leases public land for coal, oil and 
gas extraction and gets paid little of nothing for it, but when it acts 
to promote a more balanced energy policy you act outraged. (I worked on 
the National Energy Plan for close to 10 years so I do know something 
about this.)

Stopped clock and all.  And without a profit-driven market to recognize 
what such a resource could be, we, the public, would never have had an 
Internet.  It would still be the realm of academia and military otherwise.

That is simply untrue propaganda. You have no facts to back this up. You 
are of course defending another massive government give away to greedy 
corporations -- corporate welfare. The public funded the development and 
took all the risks. When it became very apparent that it was a success 
the greedy rushed in and took things over for free. The greedy bellyache 
about collecting every last cent for their intellectual property, but 
would be outraged if asked to pay for what they appropriated.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

Are you sure you know what a free market is?

A marketing term used to promote anarchy and rule by the rich. Free 
Market is what made Bernie Madoff a billionare.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

Trouble is, same people are in charge of the 'free market' that were when
Madoff made off...

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 7:06 AM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 Are you sure you know what a free market is?

 A marketing term used to promote anarchy and rule by the rich. Free
 Market is what made Bernie Madoff a billionare.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

Like we got other whining the last two.  Maybe someday people will realize
it's not really right/left and hasn't been for a long time.

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) 
mark.sny...@ngc.com wrote:

 I guess we can count on Jeff's whimpering politics for two full terms.
 And whining at Tom on behalf of M$, regardless.

 Thank you,

 Mark Snyder
 -Original Message-
  Even when the politican appoints respected scientists and
  technologists to fill science and technology posts?
 
  Maybe you are stuck in the past? The cons/neocons are no longer
  running the show.

 Oh, that's right, I forgot that the *right* people are in charge now.

 No, no one will ever use that power you so happily give them for
 something you oppose.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

There is always a fine line.  The exact opposite of what you complain 
about gave us Gazprom and the Russian Government.


Unfortunately there will never be a perfect system no matter who 
whines the loudest or who complains the loudest.  There are always flaws.


It is a balancing act at best. Sometimes it swings one way and the 
other time it swings the other way.


Want everyone to have phone service no matter what the cost.  You 
give a monopoly to one phone company to make sure everyone pays the 
same price no matter what it costs.


Want everyone to have low long distance service and choice in 
provider?  Dismantle the monopoly and let local rates rise to reflect 
local costs.


Under one you have fair market cost but some folks subsidize the 
other to make phone service ubiquitous to the masses.  Under the 
other you start pricing people out of the market, but you can call 
cross country really cheap.


It is a tough game to balance as there are never really easy answers.

Stewart


At 09:06 AM 5/13/2009, you wrote:

Are you sure you know what a free market is?

A marketing term used to promote anarchy and rule by the rich. Free
Market is what made Bernie Madoff a billionare.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 A marketing term used to promote anarchy and rule by the rich. Free
 Market is what made Bernie Madoff a billionare.

OK, so you don't know what it is.  That factoid is a real time saver for me.

*pssst* He got rich off of fraud.  I tell you this so you don't go on
being confused and embarrass yourself at cocktail parties.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 You are happy when the government leases public land for coal, oil and
 gas extraction and gets paid little of nothing for it, but when it acts
 to promote a more balanced energy policy you act outraged. (I worked on
 the National Energy Plan for close to 10 years so I do know something
 about this.)

No really, I get it.  The current adminsitration will give us all free
ponies and happy, butterfly-filled sunshine everyday.

There's no way that the next adminstration will turn the ponies into
hoardes of mind-controlled carnivores and the sunshine into giant,
frikkin' laser beams.

 That is simply untrue propaganda. You have no facts to back this up.

You're right.  the past 15 years was just a massive  hallucination.  My bad.

 You
 are of course defending another massive government give away to greedy
 corporations -- corporate welfare. The public funded the development and
 took all the risks.

We're not talking about the Bush/Obama bailouts now.  All those juicy
profits the guvmint wasted by not developing a consumer-oriented
Internet.  Oh!  The pain!

 When it became very apparent that it was a success
 the greedy rushed in and took things over for free. The greedy bellyache
 about collecting every last cent for their intellectual property, but
 would be outraged if asked to pay for what they appropriated.

Blah, blah, blah, partisan blinkers, yadda, yadda, yadda.  Call when
you have a point to make.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)

Jeff, please continue patting yourself on the back while I back away 
s-l-o-w-l-y.  

I never mentioned scientists or politicians and your off-the-point responses 
are getting creepy.  Were the meds so hard to continue?


Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
 Yet again.  Huh?; you had five posts this morning that all missed 
 the point - time and again.

If you don't understand Mark, just say so.  There's no shame in that.

I'll put it to you another way:  If you want science, go to scientists.  If you 
want politics, go to politicians.

Don't go to your auto mechanic and expect organic produce.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread b_s-wilk


Seriously?  You're comparing a crash program for atomic weapons while we're
at war to this?

The article made the points very well I thought:  giving an award to a
program $600,000,000 over budget and 8 years behind schedule is a bit much
to take, as is depending on politicians to advance science.  Oh sure,
they'll advance *some* science, usually the ones with the best connected
lobbyists and bidders or with the best photo ops.


For-profit companies don't invest much in pure research any more; most 
can't afford it, especially with the economy tanking and the US 
manufacturing base shrinking. It's difficult to estimate how much a 
project will cost when it's started from scratch with untested 
technology. The NIF is an experimental facility for fusion research. If 
it's successful, then energy companies will profit hugely from research 
that they either can't afford, or are too short-sighted to fund.


The free market hardly exists for primary research; never did. Private 
companies benefit from government investment and subsidies, and if we're 
lucky, they'll pass that cost savings to their customers. You complain 
about government intervention when many of your favorite products and 
services are the result of government grants. One of the few private 
labs doing primary research, Bell Labs [Alcatel-Lucent], ended all basic 
science projects in 2008.


OK, let's end ALL corporate subsidies. What products and services will 
benefit and which will suffer?



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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

Under one you have fair market cost but some folks subsidize the 
other to make phone service ubiquitous to the masses.  Under the 
other you start pricing people out of the market, but you can call 
cross country really cheap.


Correction: you start pricing people out of the market, but *some 
people* can call cross country really cheap.

It is a tough game to balance as there are never really easy answers.

Well Rev., which would Jesus choose?

Matthew 25:40


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 The NIF is an experimental
 facility for fusion research. If it's successful, then energy companies will
 profit hugely from research that they either can't afford, or are too
 short-sighted to fund.

I understand that.  It's also a project that is:

600% over budget;
8 years behind schedule;
and won an award for that.

I only included that article as an example of the folly of looking to
the govt. as a mechanism for science, as was so loudly crowed here.
Sure, you'll get science, and whole lot of waste and politicizing of
science too.

But, I get it, it's Team Blue time; when all is good and righteous.

And let's be clear about something:  there is a role for govt in
funding scientific research.  I just don't have on the partisan
blinkers and make silly pronouncements about science coming back
now that the right people are in charge.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth


I am not sure they had long distance calling back then.

I do remember him saying render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's 
and unto God that which is God's. .


Stewart

At 12:14 PM 5/13/2009, you wrote:

Under one you have fair market cost but some folks subsidize the
other to make phone service ubiquitous to the masses.  Under the
other you start pricing people out of the market, but you can call
cross country really cheap.


Correction: you start pricing people out of the market, but *some
people* can call cross country really cheap.

It is a tough game to balance as there are never really easy answers.

Well Rev., which would Jesus choose?

Matthew 25:40


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Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

 The free market hardly exists for primary research; never did.

Primary research?  Define please.  Private philanthropists donate
their money to universities for research all the time.  They like
having things named after them, such as the Smithsonian Institute and
Carnegie-Mellon.  There's also this little thing called the Gates
Foundation.  Howard Hughes Medical Institute parcels out several
hundred million dollars in private money annually for medical
research.  Other examples:

-$500 million pledged for stem cell research:
http://www.californiahealthline.org/Articles/2008/2/29/Private-Donations-for-Stem-Cell-Grants-Exceed-Expectations.aspx?topic=Stem%20Cell%20Research
-$150 million for physics research:
http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/News/In_The_Media/Mike_Lazaridis_Donates_Additional_$50_Million_to_Perimeter_Institute/
-£24 million for climate research:
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndInformationOffice/newsAndEvents/archives/2008/Grantham.htm

 You complain about
 government intervention when many of your favorite products and services
 are the result of government grants. One of the few private labs doing
 primary research, Bell Labs [Alcatel-Lucent], ended all basic science
 projects in 2008.

No, only when people conflate market shortcomings with govt. meddling.
 I'll repeat what I've said before:  I'd rather take my chances
without guvmint-backed monopolies.  For all we know, we'd have more
and better favorite things (and sooner) with competition driving
telecom research over the decades, instead of comfy monopoly status.

 OK, let's end ALL corporate subsidies.

Works for me.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

Private philanthropists donate their money to universities for research 
all the time.

So we must wait for the crumbs to fall from the rich man's table? Mr. 
Moneybags you are a real sweetheart.

No, only when people conflate market shortcomings with govt. meddling.

Interesting choice of words. outrages become mere shortcomings. 

Oops, I'm sorry we had a small market shortcoming and you will all now 
die. Thank you for your past business. We value you as a former deceased 
customer. Your memory is very important to us.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

I do remember him saying render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's 
and unto God that which is God's. .

I hope you got further than that in your study of Scripture.

I think free market falls more within the sphere of the money changers 
than either Caesar or God. I don't recall Jesus having much good to say 
about money changers. I would strongly disagree with those who equate 
free market with God.

Do you really propose that Jesus would side with the money changers?


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

I only included that article as an example of the folly of looking to
the govt. as a mechanism for science, as was so loudly crowed here.
Sure, you'll get science, and whole lot of waste and politicizing of
science too.

I think yours is an accurate representation of how Bush ran things. 

I also see the current administration forthrightly stating that this is 
not the way things will work in the future. They have taken concrete 
actions to demonstrate that, like putting renown scientists and engineers 
in charge of science and technology. They have also announced that 
stimulus money would not be forthcoming to organizations who had misspent 
such funds in the past -- they have already published a list of who was 
being excluded. True to their word.

When the government is in the hands of the cons/neocons it does not 
function well. These misguided/evil people hate the government and they 
hate the people. They corrupt the government and turn it into a delivery 
mechanism for furthering private greed. Its putting the fox in charge of 
the hen house.

Your example is not a reason to condemn government, it is an indictment 
of the cons/neocons.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

You didn't even watch the clip of Dr. Tyson did you?  Don't let facts get in
your way!  You might actually stop thinking about just getting your agendas
out no matter what.

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 I only included that article as an example of the folly of looking to
 the govt. as a mechanism for science, as was so loudly crowed here.
 Sure, you'll get science, and whole lot of waste and politicizing of
 science too.

 I think yours is an accurate representation of how Bush ran things.

 I also see the current administration forthrightly stating that this is
 not the way things will work in the future. They have taken concrete
 actions to demonstrate that, like putting renown scientists and engineers
 in charge of science and technology. They have also announced that
 stimulus money would not be forthcoming to organizations who had misspent
 such funds in the past -- they have already published a list of who was
 being excluded. True to their word.

 When the government is in the hands of the cons/neocons it does not
 function well. These misguided/evil people hate the government and they
 hate the people. They corrupt the government and turn it into a delivery
 mechanism for furthering private greed. Its putting the fox in charge of
 the hen house.

 Your example is not a reason to condemn government, it is an indictment
 of the cons/neocons.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth


Tom the problem is you make blanket statements that can either way.

free Market can be both good and bad.  It can serve the purposes of both.

Jesus never advocated one method or the other.

If you want to get in depth on the Money Changers we can but it is 
not so clear cut.  You need to know your history before you make 
false assumptions.


Jesus neither advocated socialism nor free market economy.

What he did advocate was that everyone is to be treated fairly (not 
equally) and justly.  If it is not accomplishing that than it needs 
to be changed. (Think Family Systems)


The early church attempted socialism and it was an abject 
failure.  Because of mans inclination to self service and selfishness 
it did not work.


So remember when you point one finger at someone else you are 
pointing three back at you!.


Stewart


At 01:42 PM 5/13/2009, you wrote:

I do remember him saying render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's
and unto God that which is God's. .

I hope you got further than that in your study of Scripture.

I think free market falls more within the sphere of the money changers
than either Caesar or God. I don't recall Jesus having much good to say
about money changers. I would strongly disagree with those who equate
free market with God.

Do you really propose that Jesus would side with the money changers?


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Robert Carroll


Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
I do remember him saying render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and 
unto God that which is God's. .


Unfortunately for the rest of us, I don't think he mentioned which was 
which ...



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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

Jesus never advocated one method or the other.

Was Jesus a moral relativist too? I didn't know that.

free Market can be both good and bad.  It can serve the purposes of both.

Good for the rich and bad for the rest of us, but the rich can afford to 
buy indulgences to set things right with God at a very affordable price.

Jesus neither advocated socialism nor free market economy.

Who said anything about Socialism? Not letting the rich rip off the rest 
of the population is not Socialism.

So remember when you point one finger at someone else you are 
pointing three back at you!.

The corrupt rich are very big on telling the abused to turn the other 
cheek.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth


He did but we often forget.  He comes first everything else comes last.

Stewart


At 05:51 PM 5/13/2009, you wrote:

Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
I do remember him saying render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's 
and unto God that which is God's. .
Unfortunately for the rest of us, I don't think he mentioned which 
was which ...


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth


At 08:22 PM 5/13/2009, you wrote:

Was Jesus a moral relativist too? I didn't know that.


He was a moral absolutist.  However much we try and move his message 
into the secular realm he first and foremost was always speaking of 
the spiritual realm.  We live in a corrupt society (in more ways than 
one) and we will never see perfection here.



Good for the rich and bad for the rest of us, but the rich can afford to

Who said anything about Socialism? Not letting the rich rip off the rest
of the population is not Socialism.

So do you have a better way?  Let us all know.  By the way the 
opposite of Free Market is Socialism (on the scale)  Are we talking 
about degrees here?


By the way Jesus did tell a few parables that could be used to 
justify a free market economy, but again that is not why he told them.


The type of government we have is never proscribed in scriptures.  It 
is what we choose.  It is what we make it..


You want me to sell indulgences?  I can do so, but they are worth 
nothing more than the paper they are written on.  (Ask Martin Luther)


Who said I want the rich to rip off any one?  What did I say (you 
left out a couple of things I said.)  Jesus did advocate fairness and 
justice.  Those need to be exercised by all.



The corrupt rich are very big on telling the abused to turn the other cheek.


Don't include me in that list.

In my family all three boys got college degrees.  I went on to get a 
masters, yet I have half the income both of my brothers have.  So I 
think I am part of the great unwashed poor.


Stewart

Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Jeff Miles

	Excuse my interruption, but didn't he get rich off of not only  
fraud, but people who where in the know and charged with stopping  
this kind of thing and did know and did nothing? And did nothing for 9 
+years. It seems to me like it was similar to telling a compulsive  
thief to not take the money and then give him the keys to the bank  
and trust him to protect it.


Jeff M


On May 13, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:


A marketing term used to promote anarchy and rule by the rich. Free
Market is what made Bernie Madoff a billionare.


OK, so you don't know what it is.  That factoid is a real time  
saver for me.


*pssst* He got rich off of fraud.  I tell you this so you don't go on
being confused and embarrass yourself at cocktail parties.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Robert Carroll


Reverend,

I respect you  your religion.  Not being a Christian myself, I have 
trouble understanding your reply.  Can you elucidate?


I know this is a computer -- whatever -- so if my question is out of 
line I apologize, and no response is necessary from you.



Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

He did but we often forget.  He comes first everything else comes last.

Stewart


At 05:51 PM 5/13/2009, you wrote:

Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
I do remember him saying render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's 
and unto God that which is God's. .
Unfortunately for the rest of us, I don't think he mentioned which 
was which ...





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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

9 years?  Longer then that.  He started in the early 90's.  By the way, a
lot of the same people who were charged with knowing about this sort of
thing are still there.

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:52 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net wrote:

Excuse my interruption, but didn't he get rich off of not only
 fraud, but people who where in the know and charged with stopping this kind
 of thing and did know and did nothing? And did nothing for 9+years. It seems
 to me like it was similar to telling a compulsive thief to not take the
 money and then give him the keys to the bank and trust him to protect it.

 Jeff M



 On May 13, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:

  A marketing term used to promote anarchy and rule by the rich. Free
 Market is what made Bernie Madoff a billionare.


 OK, so you don't know what it is.  That factoid is a real time saver for
 me.

 *pssst* He got rich off of fraud.  I tell you this so you don't go on
 being confused and embarrass yourself at cocktail parties.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Jeff Miles

	How do you budget for finding a new energy source? Would we have  
electric light bulbs if Edison would have been on a budget? I know he  
probably funded it himself, but after the first 100 tries he'd cut  
himself off we'd be sitting in the dark. And I think fusion research  
is about a million times more advanced then the light bulb.


Jeff M


On May 13, 2009, at 10:26 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:


The NIF is an experimental
facility for fusion research. If it's successful, then energy  
companies will

profit hugely from research that they either can't afford, or are too
short-sighted to fund.


I understand that.  It's also a project that is:

600% over budget;
8 years behind schedule;
and won an award for that.

I only included that article as an example of the folly of looking to
the govt. as a mechanism for science, as was so loudly crowed here.
Sure, you'll get science, and whole lot of waste and politicizing of
science too.

But, I get it, it's Team Blue time; when all is good and righteous.

And let's be clear about something:  there is a role for govt in
funding scientific research.  I just don't have on the partisan
blinkers and make silly pronouncements about science coming back
now that the right people are in charge.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Jeff Miles

	I did say 9+years. I wasn't sure how long he'd been ripping a lot of  
us off. But anyway, that was kind of my point. Why aren't these  
people under arrest who where charged with over seeing this kind of  
stuff and chose to ignore it? Or weren't smart enough to see it even  
when they were told it was going on?
	Just to keep this on list topic, this is the problem I see with  
Microsoft. They're huge and powerful and can afford to keep the  
competition either down, or buy them. I think Madoff did a lot of  
buying.


Jeff M


On May 13, 2009, at 7:14 PM, mike wrote:

9 years?  Longer then that.  He started in the early 90's.  By the  
way, a
lot of the same people who were charged with knowing about this  
sort of

thing are still there.

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:52 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net  
wrote:



   Excuse my interruption, but didn't he get rich off of not only
fraud, but people who where in the know and charged with stopping  
this kind
of thing and did know and did nothing? And did nothing for 9 
+years. It seems
to me like it was similar to telling a compulsive thief to not  
take the
money and then give him the keys to the bank and trust him to  
protect it.


Jeff M



On May 13, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:

 A marketing term used to promote anarchy and rule by the rich. Free

Market is what made Bernie Madoff a billionare.



OK, so you don't know what it is.  That factoid is a real time  
saver for

me.

*pssst* He got rich off of fraud.  I tell you this so you don't  
go on

being confused and embarrass yourself at cocktail parties.


 
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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Eric S. Sande

Why aren't these people under arrest who where charged with 
over seeing this kind of stuff and chose to ignore it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz1b__MdtHY

Long, but worth watching all the way through.






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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-13 Thread Steve at Verizon

Correction. The problem was that Madoff never bought a damn thing. All 
he did was shovel money from new investors to previous investors, the 
definition of a Ponzi scheme.


Jeff Miles wrote:
I did say 9+years. I wasn't sure how long he'd been ripping a lot 
of us off. But anyway, that was kind of my point. Why aren't these 
people under arrest who where charged with over seeing this kind of 
stuff and chose to ignore it? Or weren't smart enough to see it even 
when they were told it was going on?
Just to keep this on list topic, this is the problem I see with 
Microsoft. They're huge and powerful and can afford to keep the 
competition either down, or buy them. I think Madoff did a lot of buying.


Jeff M


On May 13, 2009, at 7:14 PM, mike wrote:

9 years?  Longer then that.  He started in the early 90's.  By the 
way, a

lot of the same people who were charged with knowing about this sort of
thing are still there.

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:52 PM, Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net 
wrote:



   Excuse my interruption, but didn't he get rich off of not only
fraud, but people who where in the know and charged with stopping 
this kind
of thing and did know and did nothing? And did nothing for 9+years. 
It seems

to me like it was similar to telling a compulsive thief to not take the
money and then give him the keys to the bank and trust him to 
protect it.


Jeff M



On May 13, 2009, at 8:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:

 A marketing term used to promote anarchy and rule by the rich. Free

Market is what made Bernie Madoff a billionare.



OK, so you don't know what it is.  That factoid is a real time 
saver for

me.

*pssst* He got rich off of fraud.  I tell you this so you don't go on
being confused and embarrass yourself at cocktail parties.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-11 Thread mike

He bought it!

On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Matthew Taylor taylorsmatt...@gmail.comwrote:

 You bought that one?

 On May 10, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote:

  As BHO recently announced, Science is back.



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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

You bought that one?
 As BHO recently announced, Science is back.

Well I was it was gone for 8 years and now I see it again. Doesn't that 
count as back? As the little kids say Back Obama.

Today BHO is announcing that the government is back into enforcing the 
antitrust laws. In the previous 8 years not a single action was brought 
by the government on this basis. Americans had to depend on the EU to 
protect us from the worst ravages of the predatory monopolists. So law 
and order are back too.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-11 Thread mike

You should read up on those lawsuits in the EU...really ridiculous stuff.
Kinda hard to claim IE has an monopoly when their marketshare is on a
spiral...DOWN.

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 You bought that one?
  As BHO recently announced, Science is back.

 Well I was it was gone for 8 years and now I see it again. Doesn't that
 count as back? As the little kids say Back Obama.

 Today BHO is announcing that the government is back into enforcing the
 antitrust laws. In the previous 8 years not a single action was brought
 by the government on this basis. Americans had to depend on the EU to
 protect us from the worst ravages of the predatory monopolists. So law
 and order are back too.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-11 Thread mike

http://fora.tv/2009/02/04/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson_The_Pluto_Files#chapter_18

Good response to the 'death of science' question from a self described left
wing member of the liberal party.

The whole show is good, regarding pluto and it's planetary status, Dr. Tyson
is very entertaining.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-11 Thread Jeff Wright

 In the previous 8 years not a single action was brought
 by the government on this basis.

That's a feature, not a bug.  Oh, you mean that's a bad thing?

Who knows, maybe they'll finally nail Apple for it's abuse of
anti-trust laws regarding OS X and iTunes.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-11 Thread b_s-wilk

That EU lawsuit against Microsoft started in the last century when IE 
was pushed onto Windows users and Netscape was dying because of it 
didn't have that kind of access. Ten years later IE market share is down 
because IE is an awful program and there are finally alternatives that 
aren't hidden from users by MS. If it weren't for the monopoly and 
misbehavior by MS, IE would have died long ago.


I'm glad that science is finally back into the forefront. After living 
in a solar house for 30 years, it will be nice that the technology 
finally has more credibility and wider use. The vast amount of 
propaganda against renewable energy has been astounding, even as 
efficiencies have increased and prices are way down into the affordable 
range. Science by real scientists is refreshing, especially with a Nobel 
laureate physicist in charge, instead of science propaganda by 
industry shills and lobbyists, as has been the norm for many years.




You should read up on those lawsuits in the EU...really ridiculous stuff.
Kinda hard to claim IE has an monopoly when their marketshare is on a
spiral...DOWN.

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:02 AM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:


 You bought that one?

  As BHO recently announced, Science is back.


 Well I was it was gone for 8 years and now I see it again. Doesn't that
 count as back? As the little kids say Back Obama.

 Today BHO is announcing that the government is back into enforcing the
 antitrust laws. In the previous 8 years not a single action was brought
 by the government on this basis. Americans had to depend on the EU to
 protect us from the worst ravages of the predatory monopolists. So law
 and order are back too.



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That EU lawsuit against Microsoft started in the last century when IE was
pushed onto Windows users and Netscape was dying because of it didn't have
that kind of access. Ten years later IE market share is down because IE is
an awful program and there are finally alternatives that aren't hidden from
users by MS. If it weren't for the monopoly and misbehavior by MS, IE would
have died long ago.

IOW, the market worked.

I'm glad that science is finally back into the forefront. After living in a
solar house for 30 years, it will be nice that the technology finally has
more credibility and wider use. The vast amount of propaganda against
renewable energy has been astounding, even as efficiencies have increased
and prices are way down into the affordable range. Science by real
scientists is refreshing, especially with a Nobel laureate physicist in
charge, instead of science propaganda by industry shills and lobbyists, as
has been the norm for many years.

I can bet you that if someone were able to make money off of
widespread use of solar, they would have done it by now.

As to science, it's managed to march forward nicely, depsite Chimpy
McBushitler. Science is better off without politicians getting their
business model mixed in with it and then having to sort out the mess
that came about. Bottom line: if you're depending on a politican for
science, you've got bigger problems to worry about.

Intersting story about a DOE managed research project. Not too bad;
only more than 600 percent over budget and at least eight years
behind schedule, and given an award for project management.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/10/AR2009051002174.html?sub=AR

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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

You should read up on those lawsuits in the EU...really ridiculous stuff.
Kinda hard to claim IE has an monopoly when their marketshare is on a
spiral...DOWN.

Windows 7 Raises Complaints...
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2346691,00.asp

Our initial review suggests this is a blatant use of the Windows 
operating system to change the market dynamics of browser usage, 
Mitchell Baker, chairperson of Mozilla, developer of open-source Firefox 
browser, told the paper.

No-one at Microsoft could immediately be reached for comment.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-11 Thread phartz...@gmail.com

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Jeff Wright jswri...@gmail.com wrote:

 I can bet you that if someone were able to make money off of
 widespread use of solar, they would have done it by now.

  Up until sometime in the 70s or 80s, and perhaps even later, a
number of natural gas utilities, including the one that serves the
metro Washington DC area, Washington Gas Light Company, would charge
their customers an extra fee on their monthly gas bills if they were
found to be using less gas that had been anticipated.  They would also
add this surcharge if it was discovered that an alternative heating
source was being used  How would they discover this?  By simply
looking at heating bills.  If bills precipitously dropped in winter,
Washington Gas would add a fee to every bill to bring their revenue
back up to what they perceived it should have been.  Their
rationale, approved by compliant utility oversight commissions stuffed
with members from the utility sector, was that any decline in
anticipated revenue endangered the very continuance of the company.

  Point is that there have always been ways for established companies
to stave off competition, including solar.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

Bottom line: if you're depending on a politican for
science, you've got bigger problems to worry about.

Even when the politican appoints respected scientists and technologists 
to fill science and technology posts?

Maybe you are stuck in the past? The cons/neocons are no longer running 
the show.


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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth

2009-05-11 Thread Alvin Auerbach

In 1949, the money to be made from the widespread CONSTRUCTION of  
solar water heating was modest and diffuse.
Shortly after, the money to be made SUPPRESSING solar water heating  
was large and concentrated and continuous:


We had plenty of solar heated water (free heat):
My parents' modest 2 bedroom home on a 50' wide lot in Miami, FL was  
individually built by them to their specifications, as were all of the  
other homes in the neighborhood. All of the homes had simple, low  
tech, solar water heaters, constructed locally. We needed the  
electrical backup only about 5 times a year.


They had plenty of electrically heated water (expensive heat):
Soon after, there was a large growth in the population of the city. My  
parents' home was considered to be far away when built, but was soon  
considered close in. Most of the new homes were built by speculators  
for sale to the public. The Florida Power and Light Company awarded  
the new home builders, in cooperative advertising, a Gold Medallion  
when they built All-Electric homes.


The money to be made in Miami in the widespread CONSTRUCTION of solar  
heating of water was modest, was a one time sale, and was diffused  
among the home building craftsmen in the area.


But ah, the money to be made in Miami SUPPRESSING solar water heating  
was and is, HUGE and continuous; and concentrated solely in the hands  
of The Florida Power and Light Company.


Think of the 60 years, of the thousands of homes, broiling in the  
Miami sun, and paying, and paying, and paying, for electricity to heat  
their water!



On May 11, 2009, at 3:59 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:


I can bet you that if someone were able to make money off of
widespread use of solar, they would have done it by now.




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Re: [CGUYS] Revealed Truth