[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Julian Blechner via Contra Callers]

I don't like to assign roles in the lesson.

A lot of good discussion, and a couple points I'll add:

- my lesson teaches the swing as allemande R -> 2 hand turn -> swing, and
so the concept of the swing being symmetrical except for handholds is
established, and then Left/Right side. (And handhold) being the concept
introduced as the difference with role.

- if there's a small number of new dancers, experienced people in my
general region will typically help show the ropes in terms of dancing
either role.
- for larger groups, I am more likely to specifically have them try both
roles

- I do like to tell new dancers that for the first couple dances, they
should consider sticking with the role in the lesson. I'll say something
like "if you're feeling comfortable, absolutely try dancing the other role,
too".

In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/Him
Western Mass

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024, 6:23 PM Winston, Alan P. via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I don't know whether I was that someone.  If it was, what I talked about,
> if you have a large enough group to do it (say, 10 or more, which I rarely
> do), is to have them all circle up [which I always do as part of the
> implicit dancing-to-the-phrase, things-take-standard-numbers-of-steps,
> early success because they're responding to a call that means what they
> think it does portion), and after we've done all that, I squish the circle
> into a longways set and take hands four from the top.  If they came with
> someobdy that person is probably in another couple now (unless they're at
> the top or bottom).  "As you face the other couple, one of you is on the
> left - you're dancing as a lark; the other is on the right - you're
> dancing as a robin.)
>
> You could also circle up, pick someone to start, and have them count off
> around the ring "robin, lark, robin, lark".
>
> In principle this means roles are arbitrarily assigned.  In practice these
> new partners might negotiate. I try not to notice.
>
> -- Alan
>
> 
> From: Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2024 8:24 PM
> To: contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> Subject: [Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?
>
> Sometime within the past 3 years or so someone posted an excellent
> procedure in this forum, which I did not copy, and could not find a year or
> so later when I tried.  maybe someone can find it.
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Tanya Merchant via Contra Callers]

Hi all,
And thanks Louise for articulating the issue so clearly and kindly.
However, I’m aware that Maia asked specifically that we avoid devolving
into a thread about gendered dance roles and once again we have.  Can we
take this off thread?  Kat K already started an alternate thread — I’ll go
give that bump.

>From my perspective, insisting on dancing with someone even though they
have selected another partner and ignoring initial requests to stick to the
thread’s topic come from similar places (of valuing one’s own preferences
over community priorities). Let’s not do either!

Tanya H. Merchant


On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 08:54 Alan J Rosenthal via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I believe it's traditional that the roles have been *called* "woman" and
> "man", but I don't believe that it's traditional that they have always
> been *actually* danced by people of the specified gender.  For example,
> I think that there's a long history of gender-segregated dance where
> people are all [believed to be] one particular gender and they all dance
> together, half of them taking each dance role.  Sometimes for practice
> before they dare to be seen dancing by the "opposite" sex at the fancy
> ball;
> sometimes because of sex-phobia under a presumption of heterosexuality.
> And plenty of other reasons that people have not adhered to the gender
> designations for the roles, for a long time.
>
> regards,
> ajr, dancing in and near Toronto, Canada
>
> p.s. I like the young people's saying that "tradition is just peer
> pressure from dead people".  If doing something the way we've always
> done it is fun for everyone and connects you to people at other times
> and places, that's cool.  But if your response to the question (this is
> a quotation) "if I show up at [that dance] with my boyfriend, how will
> people react?" is "well, you'll be required to dance exclusively with
> women as partners all night because that's the way we've always done it",
> then that's not cool, and your dance community will continue to shrink.
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Alan J Rosenthal via Contra Callers]

I believe it's traditional that the roles have been *called* "woman" and
"man", but I don't believe that it's traditional that they have always
been *actually* danced by people of the specified gender.  For example,
I think that there's a long history of gender-segregated dance where
people are all [believed to be] one particular gender and they all dance
together, half of them taking each dance role.  Sometimes for practice
before they dare to be seen dancing by the "opposite" sex at the fancy ball;
sometimes because of sex-phobia under a presumption of heterosexuality.
And plenty of other reasons that people have not adhered to the gender
designations for the roles, for a long time.

regards,
ajr, dancing in and near Toronto, Canada

p.s. I like the young people's saying that "tradition is just peer
pressure from dead people".  If doing something the way we've always
done it is fun for everyone and connects you to people at other times
and places, that's cool.  But if your response to the question (this is
a quotation) "if I show up at [that dance] with my boyfriend, how will
people react?" is "well, you'll be required to dance exclusively with
women as partners all night because that's the way we've always done it",
then that's not cool, and your dance community will continue to shrink.
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Amy Wimmer via Contra Callers]

I came here to say exactly this, but I couldn't find a nice way to say it.
Thank you, Louise, you did it.

My dance partner preference has nothing to do with sexuality, and
everything to do with fun. I won't partner with a "man" whose attitude
toward me is "Me man! You woman!"

And now this is on a thread about assigning roles. Sigh

-Amy

On Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 4:50 AM Louise Siddons via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Colin wrote:
>
>
> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken
> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer
> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons
> even though she may generally have a different preference.
>
>
> It always surprises me when people bring sexuality into this conversation,
> even though at this point I should know better. I enjoy dancing with Colin,
> just as I enjoy dancing with anyone who is a good dancer (or making a
> good-faith effort, or having a tonne of fun) and an interesting, kind,
> thoughtful human being, and I am pleased that we are friends both on and
> off the dance floor. When he (or anyone) asks me to dance, my first thought
> is not “oh good, I'm sexually attracted to this person” — it’s “oh good,
> this will be fun!”
>
> Recently at a contra dance I was separated from my partner, a woman, by
> two men who didn’t want to dance with each other and perceived my partner
> and I as acceptable alternatives. I was visibly upset by it and declined to
> dance at all; I am not a commodity). One of the men came over afterwards to
> apologise (as did my partner; older than me and not in her home community,
> I think she felt more social pressure to accede). He explained that he knew
> how I felt because he “has a daughter like you” — meaning, lesbian. I
> explained back to him that I wasn’t upset because I’m a lesbian, I was
> upset because I had asked someone to dance, they had accepted, and that
> agreement had been disregarded in deference to two men’s discomfort. To be
> honest, I am squicked out by the idea that someone looks at me dancing with
> another person and thinks first of my sexuality — that’s a creepy worldview
> in the context of contra dancing.
>
> There are dance communities determined to hold onto a heterocentric model,
> and that’s their choice — but we are, as a society, attempting to heal from
> a long — but ultimately quite recent — history of toxic gender models and
> so I think it’s a bad choice. Men being afraid or disgusted to touch other
> men is a social illness, not something to preserve or protect. Based on
> people’s comments in this discussion, gender-free dance communities
> understand, consciously or otherwise, that contra dance is a collective
> enterprise, that we are all dancing with each other, and that the community
> is healthier when it doesn’t put limits around how that happens. Friends
> can dance with each other — yes, even if they’re men! — and family members,
> and strangers, and lovers can all dance with each other, and they can bring
> different aspects of themselves to every interaction within the dance,
> whether with partner or neighbour.
>
> Louise.
>
>
>
>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers]

"I'm not sure where the notion of male/female couples being
'traditional' came from"

I'm very much in favor of anyone being able to dance any role, have
been separated from the person I asked to dance because there weren't
"enough men to go around", dance both roles a similar amount, and
think the long history of same-gender dancing is great.  But
opposite-gender dancing is "traditional" in the same sense that almost
everything else we call "traditional" is: because that's how it was
usually done for a long time.  That doesn't at all mean we need to
stick with it, as is the case with any tradition, but I don't think
it's useful to push back on people using that phrasing.

Jeff

On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 11:15 AM Perry Shafran via Contra Callers
 wrote:
>
> I must say that I am very disappointed to hear that male dancers are still 
> attempting to forcibly split female couples up so that men don't have to sit 
> out or dance with other men.  We need to figure out whether this desire for 
> these actions is somehow steeped in "tradition" or whether it is based in 
> some sort of discomfort that some men have in being in a swing with other 
> men, which some see as some sort of intimate embrace.
>
> One of the things that I have learned that gender free dances do is to create 
> a safe space for all to dance with people of all genders in both roles.  That 
> safety and inclusiveness is definitely not a hallmark when two women choose 
> to dance with each other and men are trying to split them up.  This shouldn't 
> be happening even if the role terms are gendered, because we want people to 
> have the ability to dance with the partner of their choice, regardless of 
> reason.
>
> I think in this era of contra dancing, the mid 2020s, that all people who 
> contra dance should *expect* to encounter people of the same gender as a 
> neighbor, and act in an inclusive manner, and that might mean swinging.  
> That's even if they choose to only dance with people of other genders in the 
> gents role only.  Unless your dance is completely heteronormative in that 
> same-gender dancing is frowned upon, in which case it's not an inclusive 
> dance because it excludes people who wish to dance either role for whatever 
> reason.
>
> I'm not sure where the notion of male/female couples being "traditional" came 
> from, but it totally reminds me of the argument for "traditional" marriage 
> (meaning one man, one woman) as an excuse to ban same-gender marriages.  We 
> need to be accepting of all forms of coupling on the dance floor if we aim to 
> be an inclusive dance form.
>
> Perry
>
> On Tuesday, March 12, 2024 at 07:51:02 AM EDT, Louise Siddons via Contra 
> Callers  wrote:
>
>
> Colin wrote:
>
>
> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken 
> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer
> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons even 
> though she may generally have a different preference.
>
>
> It always surprises me when people bring sexuality into this conversation, 
> even though at this point I should know better. I enjoy dancing with Colin, 
> just as I enjoy dancing with anyone who is a good dancer (or making a 
> good-faith effort, or having a tonne of fun) and an interesting, kind, 
> thoughtful human being, and I am pleased that we are friends both on and off 
> the dance floor. When he (or anyone) asks me to dance, my first thought is 
> not “oh good, I'm sexually attracted to this person” — it’s “oh good, this 
> will be fun!”
>
> Recently at a contra dance I was separated from my partner, a woman, by two 
> men who didn’t want to dance with each other and perceived my partner and I 
> as acceptable alternatives. I was visibly upset by it and declined to dance 
> at all; I am not a commodity). One of the men came over afterwards to 
> apologise (as did my partner; older than me and not in her home community, I 
> think she felt more social pressure to accede). He explained that he knew how 
> I felt because he “has a daughter like you” — meaning, lesbian. I explained 
> back to him that I wasn’t upset because I’m a lesbian, I was upset because I 
> had asked someone to dance, they had accepted, and that agreement had been 
> disregarded in deference to two men’s discomfort. To be honest, I am squicked 
> out by the idea that someone looks at me dancing with another person and 
> thinks first of my sexuality — that’s a creepy worldview in the context of 
> contra dancing.
>
> There are dance communities determined to hold onto a heterocentric model, 
> and that’s their choice — but we are, as a society, attempting to heal from a 
> long — but ultimately quite recent — history of toxic gender models and so I 
> think it’s a bad choice. Men being afraid or disgusted to touch other men is 
> a social illness, not something to preserve or protect. Based on people’s 
> comments in this discussion, gender-free dance communities understand, 
> consciously or

[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Perry Shafran via Contra Callers]

 I must say that I am very disappointed to hear that male dancers are still 
attempting to forcibly split female couples up so that men don't have to sit 
out or dance with other men.  We need to figure out whether this desire for 
these actions is somehow steeped in "tradition" or whether it is based in some 
sort of discomfort that some men have in being in a swing with other men, which 
some see as some sort of intimate embrace.  
One of the things that I have learned that gender free dances do is to create a 
safe space for all to dance with people of all genders in both roles.  That 
safety and inclusiveness is definitely not a hallmark when two women choose to 
dance with each other and men are trying to split them up.  This shouldn't be 
happening even if the role terms are gendered, because we want people to have 
the ability to dance with the partner of their choice, regardless of reason.  
I think in this era of contra dancing, the mid 2020s, that all people who 
contra dance should *expect* to encounter people of the same gender as a 
neighbor, and act in an inclusive manner, and that might mean swinging.  That's 
even if they choose to only dance with people of other genders in the gents 
role only.  Unless your dance is completely heteronormative in that same-gender 
dancing is frowned upon, in which case it's not an inclusive dance because it 
excludes people who wish to dance either role for whatever reason.  
I'm not sure where the notion of male/female couples being "traditional" came 
from, but it totally reminds me of the argument for "traditional" marriage 
(meaning one man, one woman) as an excuse to ban same-gender marriages.  We 
need to be accepting of all forms of coupling on the dance floor if we aim to 
be an inclusive dance form.
Perry
On Tuesday, March 12, 2024 at 07:51:02 AM EDT, Louise Siddons via Contra 
Callers  wrote:  
 
 
Colin wrote:


I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken Panton 
- I'm a man and I certainly prefer 
dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons even 
though she may generally have a different preference.


It always surprises me when people bring sexuality into this conversation, even 
though at this point I should know better. I enjoy dancing with Colin, just as 
I enjoy dancing with anyone who is a good dancer (or making a good-faith 
effort, or having a tonne of fun) and an interesting, kind, thoughtful human 
being, and I am pleased that we are friends both on and off the dance floor. 
When he (or anyone) asks me to dance, my first thought is not “oh good, I'm 
sexually attracted to this person” — it’s “oh good, this will be fun!”
Recently at a contra dance I was separated from my partner, a woman, by two men 
who didn’t want to dance with each other and perceived my partner and I as 
acceptable alternatives. I was visibly upset by it and declined to dance at 
all; I am not a commodity). One of the men came over afterwards to apologise 
(as did my partner; older than me and not in her home community, I think she 
felt more social pressure to accede). He explained that he knew how I felt 
because he “has a daughter like you” — meaning, lesbian. I explained back to 
him that I wasn’t upset because I’m a lesbian, I was upset because I had asked 
someone to dance, they had accepted, and that agreement had been disregarded in 
deference to two men’s discomfort. To be honest, I am squicked out by the idea 
that someone looks at me dancing with another person and thinks first of my 
sexuality — that’s a creepy worldview in the context of contra dancing.
There are dance communities determined to hold onto a heterocentric model, and 
that’s their choice — but we are, as a society, attempting to heal from a long 
— but ultimately quite recent — history of toxic gender models and so I think 
it’s a bad choice. Men being afraid or disgusted to touch other men is a social 
illness, not something to preserve or protect. Based on people’s comments in 
this discussion, gender-free dance communities understand, consciously or 
otherwise, that contra dance is a collective enterprise, that we are all 
dancing with each other, and that the community is healthier when it doesn’t 
put limits around how that happens. Friends can dance with each other — yes, 
even if they’re men! — and family members, and strangers, and lovers can all 
dance with each other, and they can bring different aspects of themselves to 
every interaction within the dance, whether with partner or neighbour. 
Louise.



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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Mary Collins via Contra Callers]

What Louise said!!! Thank you.

If I may, I'd like to share this with my home, very traditional, dance.

Mary

On Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 7:51 AM Louise Siddons via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Colin wrote:
>
>
> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken
> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer
> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons
> even though she may generally have a different preference.
>
>
> It always surprises me when people bring sexuality into this conversation,
> even though at this point I should know better. I enjoy dancing with Colin,
> just as I enjoy dancing with anyone who is a good dancer (or making a
> good-faith effort, or having a tonne of fun) and an interesting, kind,
> thoughtful human being, and I am pleased that we are friends both on and
> off the dance floor. When he (or anyone) asks me to dance, my first thought
> is not “oh good, I'm sexually attracted to this person” — it’s “oh good,
> this will be fun!”
>
> Recently at a contra dance I was separated from my partner, a woman, by
> two men who didn’t want to dance with each other and perceived my partner
> and I as acceptable alternatives. I was visibly upset by it and declined to
> dance at all; I am not a commodity). One of the men came over afterwards to
> apologise (as did my partner; older than me and not in her home community,
> I think she felt more social pressure to accede). He explained that he knew
> how I felt because he “has a daughter like you” — meaning, lesbian. I
> explained back to him that I wasn’t upset because I’m a lesbian, I was
> upset because I had asked someone to dance, they had accepted, and that
> agreement had been disregarded in deference to two men’s discomfort. To be
> honest, I am squicked out by the idea that someone looks at me dancing with
> another person and thinks first of my sexuality — that’s a creepy worldview
> in the context of contra dancing.
>
> There are dance communities determined to hold onto a heterocentric model,
> and that’s their choice — but we are, as a society, attempting to heal from
> a long — but ultimately quite recent — history of toxic gender models and
> so I think it’s a bad choice. Men being afraid or disgusted to touch other
> men is a social illness, not something to preserve or protect. Based on
> people’s comments in this discussion, gender-free dance communities
> understand, consciously or otherwise, that contra dance is a collective
> enterprise, that we are all dancing with each other, and that the community
> is healthier when it doesn’t put limits around how that happens. Friends
> can dance with each other — yes, even if they’re men! — and family members,
> and strangers, and lovers can all dance with each other, and they can bring
> different aspects of themselves to every interaction within the dance,
> whether with partner or neighbour.
>
> Louise.
>
>
>
>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Louise Siddons via Contra Callers]

> Colin wrote:

> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken 
> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer 
> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons even 
> though she may generally have a different preference.

It always surprises me when people bring sexuality into this conversation, even 
though at this point I should know better. I enjoy dancing with Colin, just as 
I enjoy dancing with anyone who is a good dancer (or making a good-faith 
effort, or having a tonne of fun) and an interesting, kind, thoughtful human 
being, and I am pleased that we are friends both on and off the dance floor. 
When he (or anyone) asks me to dance, my first thought is not “oh good, I'm 
sexually attracted to this person” — it’s “oh good, this will be fun!”

Recently at a contra dance I was separated from my partner, a woman, by two men 
who didn’t want to dance with each other and perceived my partner and I as 
acceptable alternatives. I was visibly upset by it and declined to dance at 
all; I am not a commodity). One of the men came over afterwards to apologise 
(as did my partner; older than me and not in her home community, I think she 
felt more social pressure to accede). He explained that he knew how I felt 
because he “has a daughter like you” — meaning, lesbian. I explained back to 
him that I wasn’t upset because I’m a lesbian, I was upset because I had asked 
someone to dance, they had accepted, and that agreement had been disregarded in 
deference to two men’s discomfort. To be honest, I am squicked out by the idea 
that someone looks at me dancing with another person and thinks first of my 
sexuality — that’s a creepy worldview in the context of contra dancing.

There are dance communities determined to hold onto a heterocentric model, and 
that’s their choice — but we are, as a society, attempting to heal from a long 
— but ultimately quite recent — history of toxic gender models and so I think 
it’s a bad choice. Men being afraid or disgusted to touch other men is a social 
illness, not something to preserve or protect. Based on people’s comments in 
this discussion, gender-free dance communities understand, consciously or 
otherwise, that contra dance is a collective enterprise, that we are all 
dancing with each other, and that the community is healthier when it doesn’t 
put limits around how that happens. Friends can dance with each other — yes, 
even if they’re men! — and family members, and strangers, and lovers can all 
dance with each other, and they can bring different aspects of themselves to 
every interaction within the dance, whether with partner or neighbour. 

Louise.




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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Maia McCormick via Contra Callers]

Er, typo, first paragraph should read “cis women”.

--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:59 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:

> You’re welcome to have your preferences! I don’t understand how giving
> folks of any gender the freedom to dance with whomever they want, on
> whichever side of the swing they want, prevents you from only asking
> (people you perceive to be) cos women to dance.
>
> The goal of “encouraging everyone to partner with who they want to and
> dance on the side they want to” seems an unambiguous good to me! Or am I
> misunderstanding?
>
> Cheers,
> Maia
>
> --
> Maia McCormick (she/her)
> 917.279.8194
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:14 PM Chris Lahey via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> The point is that if you announce it loudly, then you're making it gender
>> free in name only. If larks is just code for gents, then people who want to
>> dance a role that doesn't match their gender expression or identity (or who
>> are non-binary for that matter) will be more uncomfortable than if the
>> dance is truly gender free. You announce it quietly not because it's
>> shameful to have a preference, but because it's shaming the people who
>> don't match if you announce it loudly.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 5:56 PM Colin Hume via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:52:25 -0400, K P via Contra Callers wrote:
>>> > Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the
>>> opposite cisgender (realizing that any
>>> > particular, such opposite, cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a
>>> different preference)?
>>>
>>> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken
>>> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer
>>> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons
>>> even though she may generally have a different
>>> preference.
>>>
>>> Colin Hume
>>>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Maia McCormick via Contra Callers]

You’re welcome to have your preferences! I don’t understand how giving
folks of any gender the freedom to dance with whomever they want, on
whichever side of the swing they want, prevents you from only asking
(people you perceive to be) cos women to dance.

The goal of “encouraging everyone to partner with who they want to and
dance on the side they want to” seems an unambiguous good to me! Or am I
misunderstanding?

Cheers,
Maia

--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:14 PM Chris Lahey via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> The point is that if you announce it loudly, then you're making it gender
> free in name only. If larks is just code for gents, then people who want to
> dance a role that doesn't match their gender expression or identity (or who
> are non-binary for that matter) will be more uncomfortable than if the
> dance is truly gender free. You announce it quietly not because it's
> shameful to have a preference, but because it's shaming the people who
> don't match if you announce it loudly.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 5:56 PM Colin Hume via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:52:25 -0400, K P via Contra Callers wrote:
>> > Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the
>> opposite cisgender (realizing that any
>> > particular, such opposite, cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a
>> different preference)?
>>
>> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken
>> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer
>> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons
>> even though she may generally have a different
>> preference.
>>
>> Colin Hume
>>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Winston, Alan P. via Contra Callers]

I don't know whether I was that someone.  If it was, what I talked about, if 
you have a large enough group to do it (say, 10 or more, which I rarely do), is 
to have them all circle up [which I always do as part of the implicit 
dancing-to-the-phrase, things-take-standard-numbers-of-steps, early success 
because they're responding to a call that means what they think it does 
portion), and after we've done all that, I squish the circle into a longways 
set and take hands four from the top.  If they came with someobdy that person 
is probably in another couple now (unless they're at the top or bottom).  "As 
you face the other couple, one of you is on the left - you're dancing as a 
lark; the other is on the right - you're  dancing as a robin.)

You could also circle up, pick someone to start, and have them count off around 
the ring "robin, lark, robin, lark".

In principle this means roles are arbitrarily assigned.  In practice these new 
partners might negotiate. I try not to notice.

-- Alan


From: Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers 
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2024 8:24 PM
To: contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
Subject: [Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

Sometime within the past 3 years or so someone posted an excellent procedure in 
this forum, which I did not copy, and could not find a year or so later when I 
tried.  maybe someone can find it.
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Chris Lahey via Contra Callers]

The point is that if you announce it loudly, then you're making it gender
free in name only. If larks is just code for gents, then people who want to
dance a role that doesn't match their gender expression or identity (or who
are non-binary for that matter) will be more uncomfortable than if the
dance is truly gender free. You announce it quietly not because it's
shameful to have a preference, but because it's shaming the people who
don't match if you announce it loudly.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 5:56 PM Colin Hume via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:52:25 -0400, K P via Contra Callers wrote:
> > Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the
> opposite cisgender (realizing that any
> > particular, such opposite, cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a
> different preference)?
>
> I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken
> Panton - I'm a man and I certainly prefer
> dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons
> even though she may generally have a different
> preference.
>
> Colin Hume
>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Colin Hume via Contra Callers]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 10:52:25 -0400, K P via Contra Callers wrote:
> Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the 
> opposite cisgender (realizing that any
> particular, such opposite, cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a 
> different preference)?

I wasn't going to get involved in all this, but I have to side with Ken Panton 
- I'm a man and I certainly prefer 
dancing with women.  And I very much enjoy dancing with Louise Siddons even 
though she may generally have a different 
preference.

Colin Hume

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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[K P via Contra Callers]

I did, in fact, retain Maia's request in front of mind when I posed my
"open and honest" questions. They specifically address the question of,
like the hat in Harry Potter, streaming new arrivals.

"...there is no reason that one role must be danced by one gender and the
other role must be danced by the other. "

I totally agree with you, Perry.

"So when you *are* using larks/robins, then we need to completely erase
gender from the equation and have people understand that there is a lark
and a robin, and you could be either.  Try both roles and see what you are
most comfortable in."

And if there is, in fact, a discernable difference in comfort (for an ab
initio dancer trying out both left and right roles for the first time), I
posit that the various characteristics of the people you encounter while
dancing one role, versus the other, will necessarily be one determinant of
the comfort level.

"And now we are getting beyond Maia's original request of not relitigating
gender free dancing in this thread, so I would politely suggest starting
another thread for those who prefer gendered dancing and calling that is
not this one."

I disagree. Please see above.

Respectfully,

Ken Panton

>
>
>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[K P via Contra Callers]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024, 10:58 Katherine Kitching  wrote:

> You should sign your name at the bottom! :)
>

Indeed! I forgot. :)

Thanks for the reply of the experience in your community, Kat.

I am, however, somewhat troubled by one statement you made, below:


So it would be impossible in our community to recommend one role because
> you will get to dance with more ppl of the opposite gender as a result.
> Some very-long-time members of our community still ask at the door when
> they need to choose a tag, which role is the "gents" or "ladies" role
> because they are comfortable swinging on that side/standing on that side,
> SO WE TELL THEM QUIETLY [emphasis mine].
>

I'm not quite sure what to make of tiis except to see it as form of shaming
that it needs to be mentioned "quietly".

???

Ken Panton

>
>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Perry Shafran via Contra Callers]

 If you wish, you can suggest that the roles might have once been based in 
gender.  But in the larger picture, there is no reason that one role must be 
danced by one gender and the other role must be danced by the other.  Gendered 
terms have suggested that they should, but other than that, there is no reason, 
and that is why genderless terms have been invented and are now coming into 
wider use.  
So when you *are* using larks/robins, then we need to completely erase gender 
from the equation and have people understand that there is a lark and a robin, 
and you could be either.  Try both roles and see what you are most comfortable 
in.  That's the goal of gender free terms.
And now we are getting beyond Maia's original request of not relitigating 
gender free dancing in this thread, so I would politely suggest starting 
another thread for those who prefer gendered dancing and calling that is not 
this one.  
Respectfully,
Perry
On Monday, March 11, 2024 at 10:53:02 AM EDT, K P via Contra Callers 
 wrote:  
 
 John,
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers]

You should sign your name at the bottom! :)

In my group, we have so many beginners each month and so many 
experienced people who have been dancing with us only since we 
introduced the bird roles about 6 years ago, that there is no 
discernible correlation any more between a given role and a given gender.


So it would be impossible in our community to recommend one role because 
you will get to dance with more ppl of the opposite gender as a result.  
Some very-long-time members of our community still ask at the door when 
they need to choose a tag, which role is the "gents" or "ladies" role 
because they are comfortable swinging on that side/standing on that 
side, so we tell them quietly.


Personally, I love the non-gendered dancing.  I feel that it has 
actually increased my enjoyment of dancing with a same-gendered person 
as myself.  Prior to that, when there was an unspoken norm, it still 
felt a bit "weird" to dance with a same-gendered person.


Now that we have so clearly changed the culture in our dances to "we all 
come together to dance in a joyful community, regardless of age, gender, 
level of experience or any other factor" it has really changed the 
entire vibe.  I find it much more comfortable, personally.


Now the big excitement is being paired up with someone who has mastered 
the concept of giving weight :)


Kat K


K P via Contra Callers 
Monday, March 11, 2024 11:52 AM
John,

gender”!


Ya think?  :)

I had what I assume is a similar response when I read that, John.

Aside to John: In this entire, ongoing discussion, it seems to me that 
there is an active conspiracy of pretense (along the lines of 'the 
emperor's new clothes') that the elephant sitting squarely in the 
middle of the room is actually a blueberry muffin.


Open and honest questions:

Am I the only living person who has a preference for dancing with the 
opposite cisgender (realizing that any particular, such opposite, 
cisgendered individual may, in fact, have a different preference)?


If the above is a reasonable question, what is wrong with saying "If 
you have a preference to dance primarily with women, I recommend 
dancing the left role. If you have a preference to dance with men, I'd 
recommend dancing the right-side role; if you have no preference, it 
doesn't matter"?


What is the surveyed percentage of dancers in your community who have 
such a preference vs those who don't?





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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[K P via Contra Callers]

John Sweeney wrote, in response:

"“Some dances have been around since George Washington's time”! Oh! So, you
only do the
recent stuff :-)"

John, have you got some good chestnuts with "hides and hairbones" roles?

:)

Cheers,

Ken Panton
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[K P via Contra Callers]

John,

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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers]

HI all, I wasn't going to respond to this because in my group we do use 
colour-coded tags for Larks and Ravens and I am aware that most groups 
prefer not to do that- but then I did have a thought about our process 
that might be relevant to everyone.


(Incidentally, I love our colour-coded tags for beginner-friendly/ 
beginner-oriented dances, so I'll put a plug in for them.  We put a 
call-out in our community for clear name tag holders of the sort that 
delegates receive at conferences.  We expressly collected two types, the 
ones that pin onto your shirt, and the ones that go around your neck 
with a string - to allow for people preferring one type of the other.

A lovely volunteer made the tags for us.

The lark tags are printed on yellow paper.  They have a lark-shaped 
bird's side-profile, whose beak points towards the right.  Below the 
image it says LARK in all-caps.  The raven tags are printed on green 
paper with the same set-up, except the raven profile points towards the 
left.


So when couples stand beside each other, it is so visually easy for them 
and for the caller and for helpers to see if they are properly matched 
up with someone of the other bird role and then we teach them about 
the "beak rule" - if the couple is standing in the correct orientation 
relative to each other,  the beaks of each bird point inwards towards 
the other).


Anyhow, we love this system but I recognize it isn't for everyone.
What I wanted to share is about the way we assign bird roles.

We have a basket with all the "bird tags" at the entrance table, and as 
people enter, our door volunteers explain that in the dance, there are 
two nearly equivalent roles, and new dancers should choose one role to 
stick with for the night.  Since people often come to the dance in small 
groups of 2 or more, we explain that if you want to be able to dance 
with a certain friend you came with, it will make sense for each of you 
to choose the opposite role so you can be paired up together.
The volunteers also keep rough track in their head of odd-numbered 
guests who come in and choose a tag, so that they can encourage the next 
person who comes in to choose the opposite tag.


This way by the time everyone comes together in a big teaching circle, 
we are pretty sure we have even numbers of larks and ravens.


One of the first things I do, after the general introduction, is ask 
everyone to temporarily pair up with someone of the opposite bird role 
holding inside hands, to check if there is an excess number of one bird 
or the other, in which case our volunteers quickly come around with more 
tags, to fix the situation.


(I'll also point out that we have many experienced dancers in our  group 
who enjoy being able to switch roles to fill a void, so these folks 
dance with a special tag, with the other bird role hidden behind the 
first one, in their plastic sleeve, for quick switches!)


Anyhow, I was thinking - even without physical tags or other markers, 
would it still be worth considering an approach of assigning people 
their bird roles as they enter the hall?
And that way you can advise people as we do, that if you are with a 
friend who you hope to dance with at some point in the evening, you 
should not choose the same role?


Kat K in Hfx
Maia McCormick via Contra Callers 


Sunday, March 10, 2024 11:47 AM
Hey there, hive mind,

When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do you
a. explain the roles to the new folks, and
b. put the beginners into roles for the duration of the lesson?

I've seen "try swinging in both roles and see which feels better", 
I've seen "unless you have a preference, whoever is standing on the 
right of your partnership is the robin for now", I've seen "pick 
whichever bird you like better", I've seen "the robin's role is a 
little easier so do that if you feel less confident"...


I'm curious what folks here do and in what kind of distribution, and 
how you find it works for you in practice.


(Please please please let's not relitigate gender-free contra or the 
bird terms in this thread. If you really must, please make a separate 
thread.)


Swingingly,
Maia


--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[John Sweeney via Contra Callers]

“the roles have a loose base in gender.”???

 

Perhaps, “the roles were originally (completely and utterly) based on gender”!

 

Happy dancing,

   John   



John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
574

http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent   
   

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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Perry Shafran via Contra Callers]

 Hi, Maia, all,
I have seen a few choices at our weekly dance, and Louise when she called for 
us did a great job.  I think some of the things that have been said in this 
thread kind of work well, and I have continued to adjust the way I teach based 
on some of the things I have seen and have read.  Having people try both roles 
is great.  
I am not sure I'd go into the history of genders because that will get the 
nugget of info in dancers' heads that the roles have a loose base in gender.  I 
think we might consider never even talking gender at all.
One issue that has befuddled me is actually how to deal with the experienced 
dancers who join the lesson as the ringers.  We love our experienced dancers 
coming early to help out!  Except, I'd like to not have experienced dancers put 
their own agenda into the lesson by forcing gender roles if they are not fans 
of gender free dancing.  I've seen that done and then the lesson becomes 
gendered even as I insist on teaching in a gender free way.  I think finding 
ways for people to try both roles at times of the lesson certainly is ideal to 
continue to reinforce gender free dancing, but I don't think that experienced 
dancers should be going against the instructor and forcing gendered dancing.
Perry
On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 10:47:55 AM EDT, Maia McCormick via Contra 
Callers  wrote:  
 
 Hey there, hive mind,
When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do youa. explain 
the roles to the new folks, andb. put the beginners into roles for the duration 
of the lesson?
I've seen "try swinging in both roles and see which feels better", I've seen 
"unless you have a preference, whoever is standing on the right of your 
partnership is the robin for now", I've seen "pick whichever bird you like 
better", I've seen "the robin's role is a little easier so do that if you feel 
less confident"...
I'm curious what folks here do and in what kind of distribution, and how you 
find it works for you in practice.
(Please please please let's not relitigate gender-free contra or the bird terms 
in this thread. If you really must, please make a separate thread.)
Swingingly,Maia

--Maia McCormick 
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers]

Sometime within the past 3 years or so someone posted an excellent procedure in 
this forum, which I did not copy, and could not find a year or so later when I 
tried.  maybe someone can find it.
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Mary Collins via Contra Callers]

Maia,

(Maia asked me a questions about "gendering" and I thought I'd share it
with all.  I have expanded on my previous remarks as well.  My first couple
of responses were from my phone - yuk.  I  hate doing anything that way and
tend to become brief and unclear just because it is difficult for me to
respond.  I am now at my computer where I can actually type!)

I have to say that most of my "beginner" lessons are with private group
experience and they are mostly unaware of any gender issues within the
community at large.  Saying that, yes they do tend to move toward
gendered,  Most folks gravitating to their personal preference or life
role. These are weddings, private equine groups, corporate things, at
dances it is a different thing all together.  Recently I have been hired to
do a series of weekly contra dance lessons (I know I tried to tell them
but...I'll take the money!) for a local senior center; cumulating with  a
big dance the 5th week with a band etc.  So this topic is of great
interest. Hopefully this will garner some new dancers for the home dance as
well.

When (IMHO) people come to a contra dance it is at the invitation or
suggestion of a friend, co-worker, or group affiliation leader and rarely a
walk-in situation.  That of course does happen but in the community here,
rarely. Those that come do not have any gendered expectations.  I see
typically pairs of women (friends not couples), or mixed gendered couples
(m/w) and we hardly ever/never get same gendered, queer or other people
attending. (SADLY) When leading the introduction to contra basics (we do
not use lesson as we state NO LESSONS REQUIRED) gender is not talked
about.  Like the others I sometimes use a circle if there are enough to
even lead a group.  Then I teach: giving weight, circle right/left, La
Bastringue and how to swing, I talk about the music and how it "tells" you
when to move.  We count 8 steps circle, 8 steps do-si-do etc. If there are
kids I do either two hand or traditional ball-room style, using the pointer
hands and opening up like a book to put people side by side.  Then I
introduce Lark and Robin. as positions and anyone can dance either - dance
with who comes at you and that we all screw up including me and then when I
do, I make to sure to tell those beginners "see! I told you I would!"  Most
couples (m/w) tend to want to dance together and while encouraged to dance
with others often will not and in these cases they almost always choose the
typical gender role.  It has happened on occasion that they will mix it up
but that is those rare times that we get younger than 40yo people.

I call all dances Larks & Robins - UNLESS it is a really really traditional
group like my trail riding horse group.  They are SO traditional...but they
seem to love it enough to beg me to do a dance at the "big weekend", it's
fun but I have to call Gents/Ladies for them.

I hope this helps.

Mary





On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 2:03 PM Maia McCormick  wrote:

> Hi Mary,
>
> I’m curious, how do you find that the roles do or don’t break down along
> gendered lines when you introduce them with this bit of history? I’d assume
> that the implication that a role is traditionally for (men/women) would
> bias people into dancing along gendered lines, but I’ll admit I haven’t
> actually tested that hypothesis.
>
> Cheers,
> Maia
>
> --
> Maia McCormick (she/her)
> 917.279.8194
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:36 PM Mary Collins  wrote:
>
>> Maia et al,
>>
>> I struggle with this as well. Typically I've been sharing a wee bit of
>> history i.e. some dances have been around since George Washington's time
>> and were written for Gents & Ladies. So I line up long ways and indicate
>> that historically one line was gents and the other ladies. Talk a wee bit
>> about proper dance. (Keep in mind WEE BIT, not a history lesson, a
>> sentence.)  Then I introduce the modern concept of gender free and indicate
>> the Lark line & the Robin line and that it is not a gender but a position.
>> Then I flow into alemande,  do-si-do,  hands 4, position in the hands four
>> (ones & twos), swing and where to end...now
>> Introduce improper and where Larks & Robins are now. If at this time
>> people who prefer gendered position, will naturally move to that place.
>> Then I add stars, right & left through, chain. Done.
>>
>> This sometimes feels awkward and I struggle through it. Mostly it works,
>> sometime really well, sometimes not so much, sometimes I just ignore all of
>> it and just teach a simple dance and do teaching as walk through.
>>
>> Going to a callers' gathering next (this coming weekend) Saturday and
>> hopefully we can talk about this there.
>>
>> Love all the sharing.
>> Mary Collins
>> WNY
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 10:48 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey there, hive mind,
>>>
>>> When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do you
>>> a. explain the roles to the new fo

[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Mary Collins via Contra Callers]

Chris,

I like this approach, will try it next time I get to lead an introductory
group!

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who
couldn't hear the music." - Nietzsche

“Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
to dance in the rain!” ~ unknown


On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 2:45 PM Chris Page via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I'm still trying to work this out too.
>
> My most recent experiment: Have them assign roles during the promenade.
>
> After circle left/right/forward and back, I have them partner up and
> then promenade as couples.
> Once we've established counterclockwise, I let them know that the
> person on the left is
> doing the lark's role, and the person on the right's is doing the robin's
> role.
>
> I need to try this a few more times before I figure out if I want to
> keep doing it this
> way.
>
> (I like to have the swing a bit later in the workshop, just to catch
> more newcomers
> that didn't _quite_ make it to the start of the beginner lesson. And
> to work on other
> connected figures like allemande and two-hand turn.)
>
> Cheers,
> -Chris Page
> Los Angeles
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Robert Matson via Contra Callers]

Hey All,

To the original question:
>>When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do you
>>a. explain the roles to the new folks, and
>>b. put the beginners into roles for the duration of the lesson?


We give out red (for robins) and yellow (larks) bandanas when people
arrive.  We say these are for the roles.  We don't explain any history
because we need to prioritize essential learning, i.e., what is a do-si-do.

Our perspective is from that of starting and organizing two separate
beginner contradance/folk dance series.  The dancing participants for both
are essentially 98% beginners, whether first-timers or in their first year
of dancing or have forgotten most of what they once learned.  From Day One,
both dances were established as gender neutral, larks/robins with some
positional.

Here's a clip of the first dance of the evening.  La Bastringue
https://youtu.be/pRL3pYmZoHM?si=lPsfCVUYiSVLXiAr

Rob

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Robert Matson

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:57 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> My dance (Orlando) gets around 20-25 people, maybe 1/3 - 1/2 new each
> week.  Also, around 2/3 are women.  So, it isn't possible for us to dance
> without a bunch of role swapping. Even though I have them partner up in the
> workshop using a scatter mixer, so there is plenty of same-gender
> partnering even among the men, when I teach the swing in the very next
> exercise with the existing partners, there will be some (unrequested by me)
> shuffling and we have nearly entirely guys dancing with women and standing
> on the left, and women dancing with women with the more experienced person
> on the left.  This has most of the new women learning the robin's role,
> save in the occasional two-beginner-women couple.
>
> For a while I tried teaching the swing from both sides.  It got awkward
> and uncomfortable for many of the guys (women didn't seem to have a problem
> with it), so I don't do that anymore.  When I'm asked why we do larks and
> robins (it's rare that I am), these days I just point out the number of
> women and say that it's to facilitate role swapping, as otherwise we'd have
> too many sitting out.
>
> Still, I feel bad about not giving the newbies exposure to both sides of
> the swing.  The women typically do learn both sides after they're
> confident, a few evenings later, but it's rare for guys to dance the robin
> (maybe once a night someone does).  Some of the dancers are religious
> conservatives, especially the younger ones (homeschoolers, some of them),
> so I don't push it.  Still, if we had some mechanism that would make it
> more socially comfortable, I'd be very interested in learning about it.
> (Hmm.  Maybe if I had a dance with a larks swing and a partner swing, some
> of my larks would swap...!  Ok, not going that far with this group.  Not my
> job to tell them what to like.)
>
> So, I guess this is something like your, "unless you have a preference,
> whoever is standing on the right of your partnership is the robin for now",
> with nearly everyone having a preference for the traditional role and some
> of the experienced women swapping for the good of the dance.
>
> BUT, when we had a college dance in 2022-2023, the story was totally
> different.  There, we had guys comfortably swapping, just like in many
> Northern, urban, community dances.  I just taught people in whatever role
> they were standing in, and I taught both sides.  I didn't tell them to
> learn one role before learning the other.  Most swapped a lot and did
> great.  The students mostly taught each other after that, and I did
> occasionally hear the advice that someone who was less coordinated should
> stick to a role until they got it basically down.  But, college students
> are young enough that their brains are still sponges and they learn fast.
> It might not work so well for older newbies.
>
> So, I think the answer lies in how much social inertia there is in your
> group, and what direction it's in.
>
> --jh--
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:37 PM Mary Collins via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Maia et al,
>>
>> I struggle with this as well. Typically I've been sharing a wee bit of
>> history i.e. some dances have been around since George Washington's time
>> and were written for Gents & Ladies. So I line up long ways and indicate
>> that historically one line was gents and the other ladies. Talk a wee bit
>> about proper dance. (Keep in mind WEE BIT, not a history lesson, a
>> sentence.)  Then I introduce the modern concept of gender free and indicate
>> the Lark line & the Robin line and that it is not a gender but a position.
>> Then I flow into alemande,  do-si-do,  hands 4, position in the hands four
>> (ones & twos), swing and where to end...now
>> Introduce improper and where Larks & Robins are now. If at this time
>> people who prefer gendered position, will naturally move to that place.
>> 

[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Joe Harrington via Contra Callers]

My dance (Orlando) gets around 20-25 people, maybe 1/3 - 1/2 new each
week.  Also, around 2/3 are women.  So, it isn't possible for us to dance
without a bunch of role swapping. Even though I have them partner up in the
workshop using a scatter mixer, so there is plenty of same-gender
partnering even among the men, when I teach the swing in the very next
exercise with the existing partners, there will be some (unrequested by me)
shuffling and we have nearly entirely guys dancing with women and standing
on the left, and women dancing with women with the more experienced person
on the left.  This has most of the new women learning the robin's role,
save in the occasional two-beginner-women couple.

For a while I tried teaching the swing from both sides.  It got awkward and
uncomfortable for many of the guys (women didn't seem to have a problem
with it), so I don't do that anymore.  When I'm asked why we do larks and
robins (it's rare that I am), these days I just point out the number of
women and say that it's to facilitate role swapping, as otherwise we'd have
too many sitting out.

Still, I feel bad about not giving the newbies exposure to both sides of
the swing.  The women typically do learn both sides after they're
confident, a few evenings later, but it's rare for guys to dance the robin
(maybe once a night someone does).  Some of the dancers are religious
conservatives, especially the younger ones (homeschoolers, some of them),
so I don't push it.  Still, if we had some mechanism that would make it
more socially comfortable, I'd be very interested in learning about it.
(Hmm.  Maybe if I had a dance with a larks swing and a partner swing, some
of my larks would swap...!  Ok, not going that far with this group.  Not my
job to tell them what to like.)

So, I guess this is something like your, "unless you have a preference,
whoever is standing on the right of your partnership is the robin for now",
with nearly everyone having a preference for the traditional role and some
of the experienced women swapping for the good of the dance.

BUT, when we had a college dance in 2022-2023, the story was totally
different.  There, we had guys comfortably swapping, just like in many
Northern, urban, community dances.  I just taught people in whatever role
they were standing in, and I taught both sides.  I didn't tell them to
learn one role before learning the other.  Most swapped a lot and did
great.  The students mostly taught each other after that, and I did
occasionally hear the advice that someone who was less coordinated should
stick to a role until they got it basically down.  But, college students
are young enough that their brains are still sponges and they learn fast.
It might not work so well for older newbies.

So, I think the answer lies in how much social inertia there is in your
group, and what direction it's in.

--jh--


On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:37 PM Mary Collins via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Maia et al,
>
> I struggle with this as well. Typically I've been sharing a wee bit of
> history i.e. some dances have been around since George Washington's time
> and were written for Gents & Ladies. So I line up long ways and indicate
> that historically one line was gents and the other ladies. Talk a wee bit
> about proper dance. (Keep in mind WEE BIT, not a history lesson, a
> sentence.)  Then I introduce the modern concept of gender free and indicate
> the Lark line & the Robin line and that it is not a gender but a position.
> Then I flow into alemande,  do-si-do,  hands 4, position in the hands four
> (ones & twos), swing and where to end...now
> Introduce improper and where Larks & Robins are now. If at this time
> people who prefer gendered position, will naturally move to that place.
> Then I add stars, right & left through, chain. Done.
>
> This sometimes feels awkward and I struggle through it. Mostly it works,
> sometime really well, sometimes not so much, sometimes I just ignore all of
> it and just teach a simple dance and do teaching as walk through.
>
> Going to a callers' gathering next (this coming weekend) Saturday and
> hopefully we can talk about this there.
>
> Love all the sharing.
> Mary Collins
> WNY
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 10:48 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Hey there, hive mind,
>>
>> When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do you
>> a. explain the roles to the new folks, and
>> b. put the beginners into roles for the duration of the lesson?
>>
>> I've seen "try swinging in both roles and see which feels better", I've
>> seen "unless you have a preference, whoever is standing on the right of
>> your partnership is the robin for now", I've seen "pick whichever bird you
>> like better", I've seen "the robin's role is a little easier so do that if
>> you feel less confident"...
>>
>> I'm curious what folks here do and in what kind of distribution, and how
>> you fi

[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Chris Page via Contra Callers]

I'm still trying to work this out too.

My most recent experiment: Have them assign roles during the promenade.

After circle left/right/forward and back, I have them partner up and
then promenade as couples.
Once we've established counterclockwise, I let them know that the
person on the left is
doing the lark's role, and the person on the right's is doing the robin's role.

I need to try this a few more times before I figure out if I want to
keep doing it this
way.

(I like to have the swing a bit later in the workshop, just to catch
more newcomers
that didn't _quite_ make it to the start of the beginner lesson. And
to work on other
connected figures like allemande and two-hand turn.)

Cheers,
-Chris Page
Los Angeles
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Tanya Merchant via Contra Callers]

I might be on the extreme side of things, but in beginner lessons, I start
in a circle and eventually have couples drop hands with neighbors and
assign rights/robins, lefts/larks without asking for preference.  Since
they’re at a beginner lesson, I assume they’re here to learn from the
beginning,
which means that they are learning gender free dancing — not just stand in
terms for roles, but dancing free of gendered assumptions.  Also I get them
in swing position fairly quickly, so if someone has a clear preference it
becomes obvious and I have them switch roles if needed — it usually isn’t!

In the dances in my area, this works since many beginners don’t seem to
have much experience (or gender rigidity) in ballroom position.  My bottom
line is that I’d rather make someone who has previous gendered experience
with ballroom position less comfortable than alienate trans, queer, or NB
beginners by leaning back on others’ previously gendered experience.  But,
obviously this depends on what is the norm in your dance community and how
long nongendered dance roles have been standard.  In the Bay Area, it’s
been years.

Tanya H. Merchant


On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 11:15 Mary Collins via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Oh John! I just "got" your comment! Lol..sorry bit slow on the uptake.
>
> Mary
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 1:55 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> “Some dances have been around since George Washington's time”! Oh! So,
>> you only do the recent stuff :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Happy dancing,
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>>
>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
>> 07802 940 574
>>
>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
>> ___
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
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>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Gregory via Contra Callers]

Hi Maia,

Here's my recent thoughts on the subject, in chronological order for the first 
walkthrough:

1. To me, there's nothing really to explain. I find it's too much complication 
for too little help, and I don't really think roles exist in an integral way as 
others do. I'm not here to give history lessons, I'm here to get people moving 
and smiling. I'd rather spend my time thanking people for participating and 
putting them at ease. You might want to try skipping over the section of your 
lessons in question and come up with a new way (see below). Different people do 
different things in the dance, but, in my opinion, it's just easier to teach 
those things in the moment rather than create an "original" geometry.

2. I do essentially what Louise has mentioned, circle people up first (I always 
teach La Bastringue for the first dance), then get people to practice the swing 
with partner and neighbour separately, utilizing the concept of the "pointy 
hand", a la Louise.

3. Then I encourage that if someone has a preference for side, they should 
communicate that to their partner. I stress that it doesn't really matter. Most 
dances I teach are partner-symmetrical. Most noobies just stay where they are.

4. From here I use bi-coloured wrist bands (scrunchies) to identify people. I'm 
not a positional caller - I think the duality of 1st and 2nd couple is mirrored 
in the duality of the partners, and not everything is symmetrical. What you 
really want, what you're really asking for, is an easier way to explain what 
each person is doing.

I just received feedback last night from a new dancer who's been coming monthly 
for the last year-or-so, that the bi-coloured wrist bands I initiated in 
December is making a world of difference for cohesion. Years ago, the local ECD 
group adopted coloured sashes for the right-hand people (formerly expected to 
be women), and the local international group adopted formal wear ties for the 
left hand people (formerly, though rarely, men) when they danced partner dances.

I supercharged the idea by utilizing bi-coloured scrunchies, directing them to 
be put on specific wrists - this is key. Now everyone wears something, rather 
than some people essentially being outed for not being in the traditional role 
(thus requiring additional identifiers). The bands do more though. The colours 
identify "role": Orange is lead/lark/man, blue is follow/robin/woman. But since 
the orange bands are on the left wrist and the blue bands are on the right 
wrist, this gives a secondary word to use to identify who I'm talking to. I'm 
tending to use right-hand person and left-hand person, rather than my previous 
lead/follow designations, which is more positional. They're essentially the 
same thing - roles, but these ones are easier to understand and see under 
pressure. I also think it's a slight leg up on arm bands because people are 
looking at others' hands more often, and I can also identify people's pointy 
hands - they're the ones with the coloured wrist bands!! Swinging is much 
easier now, and I can use the pointy hand concept to help people end up on the 
correct side. THANKS LOUISE!!

Greg

Winnipeg

P.S. I tried to buy red and blue, but the colour on the online ad for the wrist 
bands was off and they came orange. I much preferred the idea of "making 
purple" as a phrase for swinging but orange is good, too. lol

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elit, sed do eiusmod
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occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt
mollit anim id est laborum. This is filler text that changes the size of the 
messages I send - an added layer of

[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Mary Collins via Contra Callers]

Oh John! I just "got" your comment! Lol..sorry bit slow on the uptake.

Mary

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 1:55 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> “Some dances have been around since George Washington's time”! Oh! So, you
> only do the recent stuff :-)
>
>
>
> Happy dancing,
>
>John
>
>
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
> 940 574
>
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
> ___
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
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>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Mary Collins via Contra Callers]

No John, lol, I teach those old dances often since I am the unofficial
princess of beginner dancers teaching...😀🤣

Super great for kids & families.

Mary

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 1:55 PM John Sweeney via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> “Some dances have been around since George Washington's time”! Oh! So, you
> only do the recent stuff :-)
>
>
>
> Happy dancing,
>
>John
>
>
>
> John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
> 940 574
>
> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
> ___
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Maia McCormick via Contra Callers]

Hi Mary,

I’m curious, how do you find that the roles do or don’t break down along
gendered lines when you introduce them with this bit of history? I’d assume
that the implication that a role is traditionally for (men/women) would
bias people into dancing along gendered lines, but I’ll admit I haven’t
actually tested that hypothesis.

Cheers,
Maia

--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 1:36 PM Mary Collins  wrote:

> Maia et al,
>
> I struggle with this as well. Typically I've been sharing a wee bit of
> history i.e. some dances have been around since George Washington's time
> and were written for Gents & Ladies. So I line up long ways and indicate
> that historically one line was gents and the other ladies. Talk a wee bit
> about proper dance. (Keep in mind WEE BIT, not a history lesson, a
> sentence.)  Then I introduce the modern concept of gender free and indicate
> the Lark line & the Robin line and that it is not a gender but a position.
> Then I flow into alemande,  do-si-do,  hands 4, position in the hands four
> (ones & twos), swing and where to end...now
> Introduce improper and where Larks & Robins are now. If at this time
> people who prefer gendered position, will naturally move to that place.
> Then I add stars, right & left through, chain. Done.
>
> This sometimes feels awkward and I struggle through it. Mostly it works,
> sometime really well, sometimes not so much, sometimes I just ignore all of
> it and just teach a simple dance and do teaching as walk through.
>
> Going to a callers' gathering next (this coming weekend) Saturday and
> hopefully we can talk about this there.
>
> Love all the sharing.
> Mary Collins
> WNY
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 10:48 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Hey there, hive mind,
>>
>> When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do you
>> a. explain the roles to the new folks, and
>> b. put the beginners into roles for the duration of the lesson?
>>
>> I've seen "try swinging in both roles and see which feels better", I've
>> seen "unless you have a preference, whoever is standing on the right of
>> your partnership is the robin for now", I've seen "pick whichever bird you
>> like better", I've seen "the robin's role is a little easier so do that if
>> you feel less confident"...
>>
>> I'm curious what folks here do and in what kind of distribution, and how
>> you find it works for you in practice.
>>
>> (Please please please let's not relitigate gender-free contra or the bird
>> terms in this thread. If you really must, please make a separate thread.)
>>
>> Swingingly,
>> Maia
>>
>>
>> --
>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>> 917.279.8194
>> ___
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
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>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[John Sweeney via Contra Callers]

Hi,

“Some dances have been around since George Washington's time”! Oh! So, you only 
do the recent stuff :-)

 

Happy dancing,

   John   



John Sweeney, Dancer, England   j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 
574

http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent 

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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Mary Collins via Contra Callers]

Maia et al,

I struggle with this as well. Typically I've been sharing a wee bit of
history i.e. some dances have been around since George Washington's time
and were written for Gents & Ladies. So I line up long ways and indicate
that historically one line was gents and the other ladies. Talk a wee bit
about proper dance. (Keep in mind WEE BIT, not a history lesson, a
sentence.)  Then I introduce the modern concept of gender free and indicate
the Lark line & the Robin line and that it is not a gender but a position.
Then I flow into alemande,  do-si-do,  hands 4, position in the hands four
(ones & twos), swing and where to end...now
Introduce improper and where Larks & Robins are now. If at this time people
who prefer gendered position, will naturally move to that place. Then I add
stars, right & left through, chain. Done.

This sometimes feels awkward and I struggle through it. Mostly it works,
sometime really well, sometimes not so much, sometimes I just ignore all of
it and just teach a simple dance and do teaching as walk through.

Going to a callers' gathering next (this coming weekend) Saturday and
hopefully we can talk about this there.

Love all the sharing.
Mary Collins
WNY


On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 10:48 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hey there, hive mind,
>
> When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do you
> a. explain the roles to the new folks, and
> b. put the beginners into roles for the duration of the lesson?
>
> I've seen "try swinging in both roles and see which feels better", I've
> seen "unless you have a preference, whoever is standing on the right of
> your partnership is the robin for now", I've seen "pick whichever bird you
> like better", I've seen "the robin's role is a little easier so do that if
> you feel less confident"...
>
> I'm curious what folks here do and in what kind of distribution, and how
> you find it works for you in practice.
>
> (Please please please let's not relitigate gender-free contra or the bird
> terms in this thread. If you really must, please make a separate thread.)
>
> Swingingly,
> Maia
>
>
> --
> Maia McCormick (she/her)
> 917.279.8194
> ___
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
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>
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[Callers] Re: "Assigning" roles in the beginners' lesson?

[Louise Siddons via Contra Callers]

I start intro lessons in a circle, partner people off as soon as it becomes 
necessary, and teach them both sides of the swing (by asking them to shift 
their arms while swinging; this is partly about teaching them not to drag on 
each other). Then I say, your partner might have a preference so you should 
always ask — and I explain that the preference might be about an injury, about 
how they were taught to dance, or about balancing out their experience over the 
course of the evening. 

Obviously I can’t listen to every couple on the floor but from the mic it 
appears to me that new dancers do then ask those they’re dancing with and over 
the course of the first half the outcome reflects the character of the crowd 
more than individual new-dancer preferences. 

Perhaps also obviously to some people I do all of this without reference to 
role terms except to alert new dancers that they may hear a variety of role 
terms from experienced dancers on the floor. If I’m at a L&R dance I say 
explicitly that they might hear larks and robins, and here’s what that means. 
(New dancers were not born yesterday and they figure out the gendered role 
terms quickly if there are dancers using them.)

Incidentally, I find the claim Maia cites about the robin role being easier 
extremely questionable. Do people truly generally say/believe that?

Louise. 

> On 10 Mar 2024, at 14:48, Maia McCormick via Contra Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hey there, hive mind,
> 
> When you're calling larks and robins, during the lesson, how do you
> a. explain the roles to the new folks, and
> b. put the beginners into roles for the duration of the lesson?
[the rest snipped for brevity]
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