Re: [Cooker] wine %description
hehe, yeah, after we poked the bot with a stick earlier today;) -Dvalin Randy wrote: Even our friendly #mandrake bot knows it's an interface layer: CookieII Wine: An interface between windows applications and the linux operating system. It does not emulate windows, but translates windows calls into the closest linux functional equivalent. URL: http://www.winehq.com/ -Rand E But when we said that 14 newbies went blank and had to be revived with ammonia salts Per Øyvind Karlsen wrote: wine's %description are incorrect, wine is NOT an emulator;) Time to finally correct this? This is an ALPHA release of Wine, the MS-Windows emulator. This is still a developers release and many applications may still not work. This package consists of the emulator program for running windows executables. Wine is often updated.
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
Hey, it's kinda silly to call wine an emulator when WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator... anyways, we want perfection!;) Ben Reser wrote: On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:03:18AM +0200, Per Øyvind Karlsen wrote: wine's %description are incorrect, wine is NOT an emulator;) Time to finally correct this? Blah who cares... It's an emulator of the interface. Unless you're using the actual windows binaries it's emulation. Try looking up the word emulator sometime: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulator Most users don't know the fine distinction anyway and frankly using the term emulator is more clear.
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Le Mercredi 21 Août 2002 23:18, Ben Reser a écrit : On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:03:18AM +0200, Per Øyvind Karlsen wrote: wine's %description are incorrect, wine is NOT an emulator;) Time to finally correct this? Blah who cares... It's an emulator of the interface. Unless you're using the actual windows binaries it's emulation. Try looking up the word emulator sometime: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulator Most users don't know the fine distinction anyway and frankly using the term emulator is more clear. It looks like we just found the perfect maintainer for wine in Mandrake PPC. CU CPHIL - -- Hé papa, je ne savais pas que FORMAT C: faisait ca !? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9ZBQqYJwqltj/jHgRAu9KAKCl1Cd17pL1mwIok5CXnMPMIXxRJwCZASuT icxSSVI77gexQ5bM0HjxyqY= =igfu -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
? Philippe Coulonges wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Le Mercredi 21 Août 2002 23:18, Ben Reser a écrit : On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:03:18AM +0200, Per Øyvind Karlsen wrote: wine's %description are incorrect, wine is NOT an emulator;) Time to finally correct this? Blah who cares... It's an emulator of the interface. Unless you're using the actual windows binaries it's emulation. Try looking up the word emulator sometime: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulator Most users don't know the fine distinction anyway and frankly using the term emulator is more clear. It looks like we just found the perfect maintainer for wine in Mandrake PPC. CU CPHIL - -- Hé papa, je ne savais pas que FORMAT C: faisait ca !? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9ZBQqYJwqltj/jHgRAu9KAKCl1Cd17pL1mwIok5CXnMPMIXxRJwCZASuT icxSSVI77gexQ5bM0HjxyqY= =igfu -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Le Jeudi 22 Août 2002 01:00, Per Øyvind Karlsen a goretquoté : ? Wine Is Not An Emulator. As such, it can only work on an Intel platform, executing native Windows binaries. Opposite to Windows, Linux works on many hardware platforms, but Wine can't, because it is not an emulator. Does it makes the point clearer ? CU CPHIL - -- ()Campagne du ruban ASCII : /\Contre les mails en HTML et les vcard ! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9ZB3TYJwqltj/jHgRAlqVAKCJVBzjRSFPSMcRp7Nnicgls5Y2sACeLPzW NQUoGz3KIGlHTsA/UgkHadU= =zmp5 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Le Jeudi 22 Août 2002 01:00, Per Øyvind Karlsen a goretquoté : ? Sorry. In my response, I mistaken your message and the one from Ben Reser. Rereading it, it may look like you're the one that don't understand the difference, but he is. For Linux PPC, I was just kidding. CU CPHIL - -- Je compose de la musique aussi naturellement qu'une truie peut pisser. -- Mozart. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9ZCWBYJwqltj/jHgRAlUGAJ9Y51yr3iMUsYJY+HU0dkntlSSh3QCg1AUa 0Vc7X4cAnknYytN2CEINZv4= =ECgG -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:42:57AM +0200, Philippe Coulonges wrote: In my response, I mistaken your message and the one from Ben Reser. Rereading it, it may look like you're the one that don't understand the difference, but he is. I most certianly *DO* understand the difference. But you're applying the term emulator to only processor emulation which is certainly a fine distinction that maybe hackers make, but the dictionary and common users do not make! And considering that for the most part Mandrake is for common users not hackers (though some of us use Mandrake) we should be using language common users understand not elitist hacker definitions. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
Mandrake is not _ONLY_ targeted at newbies, and describing wine as an emulator when it's not (WINE still stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator;) will make hackers think of us as stupid;) anyways, it's not harder than just grab the description from winehq.com/about From winehq.com/about: Wine is an implementation of the Windows Win32 and Win16 APIs on top of X and Unix. Think of Wine as a Windows compatibility layer. Wine provides both a development toolkit (Winelib) for porting Windows sources to Unix and a program loader, allowing many unmodified Windows 3.x/95/98/ME/NT/W2K/XP binaries to run under Intel Unixes. Wine works on most popular Intel Unixes, including Linux http://www.linux.org/, FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/, and Solaris http://www.sun.com/solaris/. Wine does not require Microsoft Windows, as it is a completely alternative implementation consisting of 100% Microsoft-free code, but it can optionally use native system DLLs if they are available. Wine comes with complete sources, documentation and examples and is freely redistributable. (The licensing terms http://source.winehq.com/source/LICENSEare the GNU Lesser General Public License.) This should explain it good enough that most linux users understand what it's for, and if it's still not good enough it's just to explain it better, but still, claiming that wine is an emulator, when it's not, well... it's kinda .. From the wine package %description This is an ALPHA release of Wine, the MS-Windows emulator. This is still a developers release and many applications may still not work. This package consists of the emulator program for running windows executables. Wine is often updated. I actually don't think this explains it much better for those without much technical knowledge, and naming Wine the MS-Windows emulator, that's actually quite stupid. Anyways the explanation from winehq is better and correct, and probably not more confusing for a new user than the one from the wine package Ben Reser wrote: On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:42:57AM +0200, Philippe Coulonges wrote: In my response, I mistaken your message and the one from Ben Reser. Rereading it, it may look like you're the one that don't understand the difference, but he is. I most certianly *DO* understand the difference. But you're applying the term emulator to only processor emulation which is certainly a fine distinction that maybe hackers make, but the dictionary and common users do not make! And considering that for the most part Mandrake is for common users not hackers (though some of us use Mandrake) we should be using language common users understand not elitist hacker definitions.
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
ah, I actually got to the point afterwards:) anyways, if something's wrong, it should be corrected, even if it's just a %description The maintaner could just explain shortly that wine is a windows implementation, and that people may think of it as windows for linux, or something similar, whatever that's correct :) Philippe Coulonges wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Le Jeudi 22 Août 2002 01:00, Per Øyvind Karlsen a goretquoté : ? Wine Is Not An Emulator. As such, it can only work on an Intel platform, executing native Windows binaries. Opposite to Windows, Linux works on many hardware platforms, but Wine can't, because it is not an emulator. Does it makes the point clearer ? CU CPHIL - -- ()Campagne du ruban ASCII : /\Contre les mails en HTML et les vcard ! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9ZB3TYJwqltj/jHgRAlqVAKCJVBzjRSFPSMcRp7Nnicgls5Y2sACeLPzW NQUoGz3KIGlHTsA/UgkHadU= =zmp5 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
On Thu, 2002-08-22 at 00:49, Ben Reser wrote: I most certianly *DO* understand the difference. But you're applying the term emulator to only processor emulation which is certainly a fine distinction that maybe hackers make, but the dictionary and common users do not make! And considering that for the most part Mandrake is for common users not hackers (though some of us use Mandrake) we should be using language common users understand not elitist hacker definitions. Actually I don't think wine really *does* fit in with most people's conception of an emulator. When I run an emulator I expect a recreation of the original machine / OS / whatever. wine expressly doesn't provide this; you don't run wine and get a windows desktop with a start button and an annoying paperclip, etc. you use wine to run windows programs, it's not exactly emulating windows because you can't run wine then point at something and go look! windows!. badly phrased, but I hope you get what I mean. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
aye, agree anyways, my point is that describing something wrong is not a good idea even if it would make people easily understand what it's for, especially not when you can explain someting right and still make people as easily understand it's purpose:) Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2002-08-22 at 00:49, Ben Reser wrote: I most certianly *DO* understand the difference. But you're applying the term emulator to only processor emulation which is certainly a fine distinction that maybe hackers make, but the dictionary and common users do not make! And considering that for the most part Mandrake is for common users not hackers (though some of us use Mandrake) we should be using language common users understand not elitist hacker definitions. Actually I don't think wine really *does* fit in with most people's conception of an emulator. When I run an emulator I expect a recreation of the original machine / OS / whatever. wine expressly doesn't provide this; you don't run wine and get a windows desktop with a start button and an annoying paperclip, etc. you use wine to run windows programs, it's not exactly emulating windows because you can't run wine then point at something and go look! windows!. badly phrased, but I hope you get what I mean.
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:10:10AM +0200, Philippe Coulonges wrote: Wine Is Not An Emulator. As such, it can only work on an Intel platform, executing native Windows binaries. Opposite to Windows, Linux works on many hardware platforms, but Wine can't, because it is not an emulator. Does it makes the point clearer ? No because you're still being silly. Wine may not emulate the processor. But it does emulate the DLLs and API functions that Microsoft Windows provides. Definition 3 from the American Heritage Dictionary (from previously provided dictionary.com URL) is: 3. Computer Science. To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs and achieve the same results as imiteated the system. Saying that WINE is not an emulator is runs simply counter to the everyday definition that most uers understand. It is an emulator. It just isn't emulating a processor which is what you're thinking of when you say emulator. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: ;) Re: [Cooker] wine %description
heh, not really, I'm not so great at writing english as I once was:o) Let's try to rephrase this; My point is that you don't call wine for an emulator just to make people understand what it's purpose is, when it's not an emulator. Especially not when it's not hard to desribe it correctly and at the same time make people understad it's purpose. eg. people did'nt call PC-DOS, DR-DOS, etc. for MS-DOS emulators just because they could mostly run the same programs. allen wrote: On Wednesday 21 August 2002 08:23 pm, Per Øyvind Karlsen wrote: aye, agree anyways, my point is that describing something wrong is not a good idea even if it would make people easily understand what it's for, especially not when you can explain someting right and still make people as easily understand it's purpose:) I'm not sure I understand... Did you just say Get rid of marketing people ? ;) -AEF
Re: ;) Re: [Cooker] wine %description
On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 02:34:51AM +0200, Per Øyvind Karlsen wrote: Let's try to rephrase this; My point is that you don't call wine for an emulator just to make people understand what it's purpose is, when it's not an emulator. Especially not when it's not hard to desribe it correctly and at the same time make people understad it's purpose. The purpose of the a %description is to let people know what the app does. If you don't speak in the terms they understand then it's worthelss... To some degree it's an emulator. You guys just want to use overly broad definitions of the term. My mother and most of my non-techie friends won't understand the distinctions you guys are trying to make. Now I'm not saying the %description couldn't be imporved. But WINE *IS* an emulator at some level. eg. people did'nt call PC-DOS, DR-DOS, etc. for MS-DOS emulators just because they could mostly run the same programs. Doesn't mean they couldn't be called that. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 02:06:10AM +0200, Per Øyvind Karlsen wrote: Mandrake is not _ONLY_ targeted at newbies, and describing wine as an emulator when it's not (WINE still stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator;) will make hackers think of us as stupid;) anyways, it's not harder than just grab the description from winehq.com/about I didn't say it was. From winehq.com/about: Wine is an implementation of the Windows Win32 and Win16 APIs on top of X and Unix. Think of Wine as a Windows compatibility layer. Wine provides both a development toolkit (Winelib) for porting Windows sources to Unix and a program loader, allowing many unmodified Windows 3.x/95/98/ME/NT/W2K/XP binaries to run under Intel Unixes. Wine works on most popular Intel Unixes, including Linux http://www.linux.org/, FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/, and Solaris http://www.sun.com/solaris/. Wine does not require Microsoft Windows, as it is a completely alternative implementation consisting of 100% Microsoft-free code, but it can optionally use native system DLLs if they are available. Wine comes with complete sources, documentation and examples and is freely redistributable. (The licensing terms http://source.winehq.com/source/LICENSEare the GNU Lesser General Public License.) This should explain it good enough that most linux users understand what it's for, and if it's still not good enough it's just to explain it better, but still, claiming that wine is an emulator, when it's not, well... it's kinda .. So submit a patch to change the spec file and be doen with it. If you know enough to be looking at the spec you can submit a patch. That is a better description but not because it just doesn't call WINE an emulator. Because WINE is an emulator. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org If your love has no hope of being welcomed do not voice it; for if it be silent it can endure, a guarded flame, within you. - The Wisdom of the Sands
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Per Øyvind Karlsen wrote: | Mandrake is not _ONLY_ targeted at newbies, and describing wine as | an emulator when it's not (WINE still stands for Wine Is Not an | Emulator;) will make hackers think of us as stupid;) | anyways, it's not harder than just grab the description from | winehq.com/about | | From winehq.com/about: | | Wine is an implementation of the Windows Win32 and Win16 APIs on top | of X and Unix. Think of Wine as a Windows compatibility layer. Wine | provides both a development toolkit (Winelib) for porting Windows | sources to Unix and a program loader, allowing many unmodified Windows | 3.x/95/98/ME/NT/W2K/XP binaries to run under Intel Unixes. Wine works | on most popular Intel Unixes, including Linux http://www.linux.org/, | FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/, and Solaris | http://www.sun.com/solaris/. | | Wine does not require Microsoft Windows, as it is a completely | alternative implementation consisting of 100% Microsoft-free code, but | it can optionally use native system DLLs if they are available. Wine | comes with complete sources, documentation and examples and is freely | redistributable. (The licensing terms | http://source.winehq.com/source/LICENSEare the GNU Lesser General | Public License.) | | This should explain it good enough that most linux users understand | what it's for, and if it's still not good enough it's just to explain | it better, but still, claiming that wine is an emulator, when it's | not, well... it's kinda .. | | From the wine package | | %description | This is an ALPHA release of Wine, the MS-Windows emulator. This is | still a developers release and many applications may still not work. | | This package consists of the emulator program for running windows | executables. | | Wine is often updated. | | I actually don't think this explains it much better for those without | much technical knowledge, and naming Wine the MS-Windows emulator, | that's actually quite stupid. | Anyways the explanation from winehq is better and correct, and | probably not more confusing for a new user than the one from the wine | package | | | | Ben Reser wrote: | | On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:42:57AM +0200, Philippe Coulonges wrote: | | | In my response, I mistaken your message and the one from Ben Reser. | Rereading it, it may look like you're the one that don't understand | the difference, but he is. | | | | I most certianly *DO* understand the difference. But you're applying | the term emulator to only processor emulation which is certainly a fine | distinction that maybe hackers make, but the dictionary and common users | do not make! And considering that for the most part Mandrake is for | common users not hackers (though some of us use Mandrake) we should be | using language common users understand not elitist hacker definitions. | | | | | Anyone else think it might be beneficial to either include the words wrapper or compatibility layer in this description? These two come to my mind immediately whenever I think of WINE. As an added bonus for the wrapper description, many of the Windows gamers that started at least 2+ years ago are likely to be familiar with Glide or OpenGL wrappers. A lot of drivers just before that had buggy OpenGL support and some applications only supported the proprietary Glide API so these wrapper DLLs were a must to use many programs with the newer hardware. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAj1kSl4ACgkQUMkt1ZRwL1MgxgCcD6mtcHFqmOHx5i5/gky4poj+ BAcAn2JKoCowdOEYPzg4grMUbTNHPZGF =EaSN -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
On Wednesday 21 August 2002 09:20 pm, Richard G. Houser wrote: Anyone else think it might be beneficial to either include the words wrapper or compatibility layer in this description? These two come to my mind immediately whenever I think of WINE. As an added bonus for the wrapper description, many of the Windows gamers that started at least 2+ years ago are likely to be familiar with Glide or OpenGL wrappers. A lot of drivers just before that had buggy OpenGL support and some applications only supported the proprietary Glide API so these wrapper DLLs were a must to use many programs with the newer hardware. That would simply confuse things. My opinion: who cares? It's just a package description, not anything which pretends to be an authoritative source. Hardly anybody ever reads these things. If they do, they'll understand what it's supposed to do if you just call it an emulator. People know what emulators are, they would get confused if you say that it is a an API compatibility wrapper for Win32 binaries or something like that. If they want more details on how it works, they will do a google search and go to winehq.com which clarifies things on the nuts and bolts. Too much detail is a major problem with package descriptions. When people decide whether to install a package or not, they want to know WHAT a program does, not HOW it does it. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] wine %description
hehe, this thread started to get amusing now:) anyways, no offence whatsover and thanks for a insightful discussion ahh, one more hour of sleep then I'm off to work *sigh*
