Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 23:05, Warly wrote: Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Warly, is there any reason not to make a 4th (entirely optional) ISO of ~ 200MB? We have this dilemma about the download edition: - download is a marketting product which should be better as possible to make users switch or use mandrake and then buy something. - download is a direct (gratis) competitor to our other products, powerpack, discovery... As a consequence download is a compromise. And it was decide that 3 CDs is enough to market mandrakesoft skill, and 4 CD will make the download too dangerous for our product line. So another partial solution would be to have 700 MB instead of 650 MB. My personnal point of view: I think our future is in a club-like way of doing business, and that the best the download will be, the more people will give back, so publish as many CDs as needed (7 with contribs, DVD isos...). But this will need all the old-economy way of thinking reminiscents to disapear first. Warly, Taking your argument into consideration. Going with less on the download version does tend to make the purchased version more appealing. Make them larger or more in quantity. The 650 disk one + 700mb disk 2 and 3 is a very nice compromise. If you get up and running with disk 1 you can urpmi the rest if needed. In fact I've one cdrom drive that for unknown reasons wouldn't read the 700mb cd during install but would after. () James
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
James Sparenberg wrote: Taking your argument into consideration. Going with less on the download version does tend to make the purchased version more appealing. Make them larger or more in quantity. The 650 disk one + 700mb disk 2 and 3 is a very nice compromise. If you get up and running with disk 1 you can urpmi the rest if needed. In fact I've one cdrom drive that for unknown reasons wouldn't read the 700mb cd during install but would after. () I like the idea of all 650's, but with a 4th disk containing nothing but games fluff, much much better. I'd rather not download any games, or alternate themes, or screensavers, or any other stuff that has nothing to do with getting useful work done. It's nice to make the boxed sets more appealing, but it's also nice to make the downloads appealing to people considering downloading more svelte distros instead of Mandrake. Let the gamers download their junk, but don't make every downloader waste so much bandwidth. -- ...[B]e quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:40, Svetoslav Slavtchev wrote: but tell me which bleeding edge PC has a 300W PSU ?-) and dual SMP commonly needs = 400-450 :-) ...and count the monitor... Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Warly, is there any reason not to make a 4th (entirely optional) ISO of ~ 200MB? We have this dilemma about the download edition: - download is a marketting product which should be better as possible to make users switch or use mandrake and then buy something. - download is a direct (gratis) competitor to our other products, powerpack, discovery... As a consequence download is a compromise. And it was decide that 3 CDs is enough to market mandrakesoft skill, and 4 CD will make the download too dangerous for our product line. So another partial solution would be to have 700 MB instead of 650 MB. My personnal point of view: I think our future is in a club-like way of doing business, and that the best the download will be, the more people will give back, so publish as many CDs as needed (7 with contribs, DVD isos...). But this will need all the old-economy way of thinking reminiscents to disapear first. -- Warly
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Leon Brooks wrote: But I think 650 (at least for CD1) should be used to be as compatible as possible. It's not always good to cater for the majority, some minorities have a big influence (stupid journalist reviewers...) I agree with this: 650MB for CD1, 700MB for the rest, buys us an extra 100MB without completely cutting off older equipment. Looks a nice compromise to get sure install work everywhere. I vote for this one.
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Le mar 16/09/2003 à 11:59, Pascal Terjan a écrit : Leon Brooks wrote: But I think 650 (at least for CD1) should be used to be as compatible as possible. It's not always good to cater for the majority, some minorities have a big influence (stupid journalist reviewers...) I agree with this: 650MB for CD1, 700MB for the rest, buys us an extra 100MB without completely cutting off older equipment. Looks a nice compromise to get sure install work everywhere. I vote for this one. Yep, you should be a diplomat at WTO ... +1 Stef -- signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Teletchéa Stéphane wrote: Le mar 16/09/2003 à 11:59, Pascal Terjan a écrit : Leon Brooks wrote: But I think 650 (at least for CD1) should be used to be as compatible as possible. It's not always good to cater for the majority, some minorities have a big influence (stupid journalist reviewers...) I agree with this: 650MB for CD1, 700MB for the rest, buys us an extra 100MB without completely cutting off older equipment. Looks a nice compromise to get sure install work everywhere. I vote for this one. Yep, you should be a diplomat at WTO ... +1 Stef -- The problem is that stupid reviewers will say : I could install the first CD but the 2 others don't work. Eric
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Leon Brooks wrote: | On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:21, Jan Ciger wrote: | |I would rather prefer good old 650MB. I can write the images to a |CD-RW and when a new version is out, just rewrite them without having |old obsolete CDs with old versions laying around. | | | At AUD$0.40 a blank, who cares? | Does ecology say anything to you ? I hate throwing things away, it is not always about price. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZwAdn11XseNj94gRApxoAKDuEyr9TwGbHnWmqencF8MQX3QmjACeIaz6 jqSPSbP1rpvwOPZ5jAsDhYY= =6Ldn -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Mon Sep 15 23:17 +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: Levi Ramsey wrote: On Mon Sep 15 16:58 +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: But we should try not to piss everybody off ... we've already pissed off the freeloaders who don't like adware (and can't read), now we're going to piss off those who have a dodgy CDROM drive who don't see the need to spend $30 on a new one when they could buy some other distro for the same price or use Redhat instead. And I suspect there may be other news that will piss even more off ... However, how many people use the ISOs to install on a server (ISOs does *not* include those who buy a boxed version)? I would think that most server installs are net installs. All my machines with clients are installed of CD or DVD. Of course, this might mean having greater promotion of the net install option... This is only of value of course in places where fast connections are ubiquitous ... I would *stronly* suggest not pissing off users who bought boxed sets (or other media from the store) since they don't have the bandwidth to download ISOs ... My suggestion is: do not include them on the download ISOs. If you have the bandwidth to get the ISOs with any degree of speed, you can do a net install on the servers. This is not true of the boxed versions or even the media purchases from the store. In that case, include the server pacakages on the CDs then. -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Take due notice and govern yourselves accordingly. Currently playing: Rush - Test for Echo - Test For Echo Linux 2.4.22-0.4mdk 08:49:00 up 6 days, 20:15, 2 users, load average: 0.19, 0.15, 0.08
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:27, Eric Fernandez wrote: The problem is that stupid reviewers will say : I could install the first CD but the 2 others don't work. Don't tell the stupid reviewers about the other two CDs. (-: Seriously, at least they are able to do an install, which they couldn't do if all of the CDs were 700MB. The canonical gateway/FTP-server/yadda packages should all be available on the first ISO. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:20, Jan Ciger wrote: Leon Brooks wrote: | On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:21, Jan Ciger wrote: |I would rather prefer good old 650MB. I can write the images to a |CD-RW and when a new version is out, just rewrite them without | having old obsolete CDs with old versions laying around. | At AUD$0.40 a blank, who cares? Does ecology say anything to you ? I hate throwing things away, it is not always about price. How much more energy does your computer use burning the rewriteable - slowly - each time than burning a one-shot? Budget about 70W for an economical Linux white box with a flat screen, 300W for a bleeding-edge super-hyper-turbo multi-CPU muscly-GPU monster with a 21 monitor. Is the energy embodied in the manufacture and disposition of a CD blank more than this? If so, burning the one-shot discs is kinder to the environment. If the energy embodied in a CDRW is significantly greater than that in a simpler CDR, you need to discount the CDRs' eco-burden for that too. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:20, Jan Ciger wrote: Leon Brooks wrote: | On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:21, Jan Ciger wrote: |I would rather prefer good old 650MB. I can write the images to a |CD-RW and when a new version is out, just rewrite them without | having old obsolete CDs with old versions laying around. | At AUD$0.40 a blank, who cares? Does ecology say anything to you ? I hate throwing things away, it is not always about price. How much more energy does your computer use burning the rewriteable - slowly - each time than burning a one-shot? Budget about 70W for an economical Linux white box with a flat screen, 300W for a bleeding-edge super-hyper-turbo multi-CPU muscly-GPU monster with a 21 monitor. Is the energy embodied in the manufacture and disposition of a CD blank more than this? very good argument :-) but tell me which bleeding edge PC has a 300W PSU ?-) and dual SMP commonly needs = 400-450 :-) If so, burning the one-shot discs is kinder to the environment. If the energy embodied in a CDRW is significantly greater than that in a simpler CDR, you need to discount the CDRs' eco-burden for that too. Cheers; Leon -- +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More! +++ Getestet von Stiftung Warentest: GMX FreeMail (GUT), GMX ProMail (GUT) (Heft 9/03 - 23 e-mail-Tarife: 6 gut, 12 befriedigend, 5 ausreichend) Jetzt selbst kostenlos testen: http://www.gmx.net
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Leon Brooks wrote: | On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:20, Jan Ciger wrote: | How much more energy does your computer use burning the rewriteable - | slowly - each time than burning a one-shot? Budget about 70W for an | economical Linux white box with a flat screen, 300W for a | bleeding-edge super-hyper-turbo multi-CPU muscly-GPU monster with a 21 | monitor. Is the energy embodied in the manufacture and disposition of a | CD blank more than this? | | If so, burning the one-shot discs is kinder to the environment. This is pure demagogy, Leon. I could argument exactly the same way to justify the benefit of reusing a medium instead of burning a new one each time. If you do not have the numbers to support this, it is just hand waving. But that's not the point of the discussion. There are also other practical benefits of using CD-RWs for short-lived things like one version of Mandrake distro. If there are CD-RWs availabe in 700MB size now (some people wrote, that they are), then this point is moot anyway. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZxQnn11XseNj94gRAlALAKDdF2dIEn4ehXJCSv+Lh/F1LFUrugCg5HTK kNEQ7vbMv6UNH3dTOd/S3HA= =iyrp -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Le mar 16/09/2003 à 06:05, Warly a écrit : Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Warly, is there any reason not to make a 4th (entirely optional) ISO of ~ 200MB? We have this dilemma about the download edition: - download is a marketting product which should be better as possible to make users switch or use mandrake and then buy something. - download is a direct (gratis) competitor to our other products, powerpack, discovery... What about this : server stuff ( wizards, optimized binaries + specific extensions ) should be only in PowerPack/Corporate/Club. For example in dl edition : standard apache + basic wizard. in powerpack/Corporate/Club : advx + complete wizard ( more features as settings virtual servers + security settings + ) So you remain open ( as someone in Club can grab the rpm/source ) but normally for advanced features you'd better use powerpack/... download edition offers introduction to linux, easy basic wizard. For advanced stuff you have to do it yourself. It's like for flash/java/realplayer. Even if there were OpenSource, I will not put them in dl edition : the user can grab them himself but will have to configure also himself. with pack, everything is provided and configuration is straightforward. For example in Pack/Club you supply a wizard that can configure for you an LDAP/NFS auth ( install+configuration of NFS, LDAP, autofs ) + a wizard to configure easily the clients against this server. And so on. One or two people should only be dedicated to write these wizards. Others are working one the base ( common to dl and Pack/Club ). Few packages will be different or provides with some custom config files. My personnal point of view: I think our future is in a club-like way of doing business, and that the best the download will be, the more people will give back, so publish as many CDs as needed (7 with contribs, DVD isos...). Each 6 month I buy the PowerPack for my society and update the computers. I'm willing to be in club, but what's the advantages ? If I could have all that I have in pack, or by just burning iso on ftp club I could have the Pack edition, I try to join club ( in fact convince my boss to join club ), but if for me it'sd less interesting ... Discount ? I don't use apps for which you have discount ( or the only one I may buy is StarOffice ), so it's not interesting for me. --- To be or not to be ? That is the question. William Shakespeare, Hamlet.
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Levi Ramsey wrote: On Mon Sep 15 23:17 +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: This is only of value of course in places where fast connections are ubiquitous ... I would *stronly* suggest not pissing off users who bought boxed sets (or other media from the store) since they don't have the bandwidth to download ISOs ... My suggestion is: do not include them on the download ISOs. If you have the bandwidth to get the ISOs with any degree of speed, you can do a net install on the servers. I thin that's a bad assumption. It's a bit difficult for me to do a net install when I am not near (bandwidth-wise) a mirror (but it's no problem installing off a CD I wrote from a mirror when I don't even have an internet connection). In South Africa, distribution of free linux is quite commonly done by asking on a mailing list for the distro of your choice, and someone who has access to a mirror (like I have to ftp://ftp.sun.ac.za/iso-images and ftp://ftp.sun.ac.za/mandrake) will write CDs for them at cost. I don't know how many of these are servers of course ... but a lot of them were probably not the latest machines ... I am sure similar things happen in many other band-width deprived countries ... Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZxBqrJK6UGDSBKcRAho6AJ47UxsYYjczOFEAL07Xu7D8kHuIuACeKcy4 tdBVPAwZ92qisvWgfzXG9us= =48c7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Buchan Milne wrote: | Levi Ramsey wrote: | |On Mon Sep 15 23:17 +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: | | |This is only of value of course in places where fast connections are |ubiquitous ... I would *stronly* suggest not pissing off users who |bought boxed sets (or other media from the store) since they don't have |the bandwidth to download ISOs ... | | |My suggestion is: do not include them on the download ISOs. If you have |the bandwidth to get the ISOs with any degree of speed, you can do a net |install on the servers. | | | I thin that's a bad assumption. It's a bit difficult for me to do a net | install when I am not near (bandwidth-wise) a mirror (but it's no | problem installing off a CD I wrote from a mirror when I don't even have | an internet connection). Even worse, did you imagine installing cca 20 machines ? Are you going to do network install on each of them ? Probably not - you either mirror the directory on a local server or burn CDs or ghost the machines, if they are identical (not always the case). I have a big pipe here (university), but the idea of downloading the stuff 20 times would warrant a very quick attention of our network admins - you know, somebody finally has to pay for the bandwith (we pay something like 15 CHF/1GB - cca 11 USD/1GB). So even when I am sitting almost next to the major Swiss mirror (SWITCH in Zurich) on a big pipe (400Mb/s, I think it was upgraded to 1Gb/s recently), I am going to use the ISOs or local mirror and not do network install. Further, installing server from the network is dangerous, since you could be hacked before you put all your defenses in place (firewalls, lock down permissions etc.). Regards, Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/Zyk4n11XseNj94gRAgqEAKCTvR/Il3lDxxfxaFlXuo6T6P2BPACgiF5a PtR4E5bHoo3xZlZ2CnVp/Yw= =D1SS -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Jan Ciger wrote: If there are CD-RWs availabe in 700MB size now (some people wrote, that they are), then this point is moot anyway. Jan Jan, I recommend you Infinity 10X 700MB CD-RW, they work very well for me. Eric
[Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? -- Warly
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Warly wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. Yup 700 is the way to go. In shops where I buy them I can't even see any 650 CD-Rs :)
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:35:01 +0200 Warly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. Does not really matter to me, I got blanks of both. First thing I do after an installation is to remove the cd sources and add ftp for main, contrib and plf; then pass the cds on to someone else. (I got an old cd1 I can use to boot to rescue mode, if needed.) Charles -- One's never alone with a rubber duck. - Mandrake Linux 9.2 on PurpleDragon Kernel-2.4.22-9mdkenterprise http://www.eslrahc.com - pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Le lun 15/09/2003 à 12:35, Warly a écrit : A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? +1 Stef -- signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 12:35:01PM +0200, Warly wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? for myself I'm happy with either size. But I think 650 (at least for CD1) should be used to be as compatible as possible. It's not always good to cater for the majority, some minorities have a big influence (stupid journalist reviewers...) The suggested alternative is a 4th CD, what's the official opinion on that? (or unofficial for that matter ;-) /Simon
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Jure Repinc wrote: Warly wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. Yup 700 is the way to go. In shops where I buy them I can't even see any 650 CD-Rs :) Yes, I'm voting for 700MB ISOs too. With this disc size we have about 150MB more. But it now depends on decision in MandrakeSoft... R.V.
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Warly wrote: | A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB | discs over 650 MB ones. | | WDYT? | I would rather prefer good old 650MB. I can write the images to a CD-RW and when a new version is out, just rewrite them without having old obsolete CDs with old versions laying around. Or does anybody know, where to get 700MB CD-RWs ? Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZaCdn11XseNj94gRAvFuAKC7zJr+Oxte2MGGBGrP1VwirbDW7QCaA74b i2iCXYpdi74tBgP1RBC3c1o= =ZuOl -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Warly wrote: | A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB | discs over 650 MB ones. | | WDYT? | Wasn't this exactly the other way round last time ? I remember, that 9.0 ~ shipped with 700MB ISOs and there were lots of complaints about it (people burned coasters and such). 9.1 had normal 650MB ISOs because of this. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZaEtn11XseNj94gRAlSnAKDktxBfqqnIvS2H44nQIdQ9BCkUegCgoBBO h5BLmDDRVcj6t7zgxvO693o= =oImk -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Am Montag, 15. September 2003, 13:21:01 Uhr MET, schrieb Jan Ciger: I would rather prefer good old 650MB. I can write the images to a CD-RW and when a new version is out, just rewrite them without having old obsolete CDs with old versions laying around. Or does anybody know, where to get 700MB CD-RWs ? Don't know about your country, but here in Germany you can buy good TDK CD-RWs with 700MB capacity at Vobis. -- What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? Mahatma Gandhi (1869 - 1948), Non-Violence in Peace and War
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Le Lundi 15 Septembre 2003 12:35, Warly a écrit : A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? No matter, all can be burned on DVD+rw 4.7 GB ;) And all can be installed from mirror network tree. -- Linux pour Mac !? Enfin le moyen de transformer une pomme en véritable ordinateur. - JL. Olivier Thauvin - http://nanardon.homelinux.org/
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Warly wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? Most users have =128MB ram, but I don't see us adding features to the installer to take advantage of the extra ram. Remember your minimum requirements. Machines which only just make those requirements are likely to have an older CD-ROM drive, thus we are likely to find users who have problems if we use 700MB. What is the difference between having 700MB CDs, and having 3 650MB CDs and a fourth 150MB CD? It's the same space on the mirror, and it costs the user only an extra $0.50 (well, that's what CD-Rs cost here). Buying a new CD-ROM drive for all the PII machines would cost significantly more ... Of course, with a 4th CD, we can use more than 150MB ... Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZaW/rJK6UGDSBKcRAjABAJ9EX7H4M51S4Gr5uJU0ip3SSnOTegCgsURL +w3Z+v49328i2aaqsKv3T2Y= =l4p2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? No matter, all can be burned on DVD+rw 4.7 GB ;) And all can be installed from mirror network tree. Yes! I vote for DVD(+/-R,RW) iso too ;-) -- Zdenek Mazanec, Contactel s.r.o. http://mandrake.contactel.cz Silver MandrakeClub Member
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Jan Ciger wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Warly wrote: | A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB | discs over 650 MB ones. | | WDYT? | Wasn't this exactly the other way round last time ? I remember, that 9.0 ~ shipped with 700MB ISOs and there were lots of complaints about it (people burned coasters and such). 9.1 had normal 650MB ISOs because of this. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZaEtn11XseNj94gRAlSnAKDktxBfqqnIvS2H44nQIdQ9BCkUegCgoBBO h5BLmDDRVcj6t7zgxvO693o= =oImk -END PGP SIGNATURE- But the number of packages has increased since then. Eric
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Jan Ciger wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Warly wrote: | A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB | discs over 650 MB ones. | | WDYT? | I would rather prefer good old 650MB. I can write the images to a CD-RW and when a new version is out, just rewrite them without having old obsolete CDs with old versions laying around. Or does anybody know, where to get 700MB CD-RWs ? Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZaCdn11XseNj94gRAvFuAKC7zJr+Oxte2MGGBGrP1VwirbDW7QCaA74b i2iCXYpdi74tBgP1RBC3c1o= =ZuOl -END PGP SIGNATURE- I bought high speed 10X infinity CD-RW on an internet site, in UK. They are available now :) Eric
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
--- Warly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? -- Warly I think that people should be using the hd.img more and letting y'all make the CD ISO images whatever size you want them to be. However, I'd prefer 700MB if I still burned the images to disk. [ Install from the hard drive: http://members.tripod.com/fhj52/linux/id3.html ] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
A 3 650 Mb CD pack should be fine, it should be enough to put a standard desktop for the end-user. Maybe even a 2 CD interbational release, with 2 aditional CDs with more apps.
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Hi, mainly personnal reasons but I prefer 650MB for short-time-life versions (beta's and rc) because my CD-RWs are 650MB ones, 700MB for the final version because I use 700MB CD-R and I want more packages ;-) Berthy Le lun 15/09/2003 à 12:35, Warly a écrit : A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT?
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Le Lundi 15 Septembre 2003 14:07, cpjc a écrit : Hi, mainly personnal reasons but I prefer 650MB for short-time-life versions (beta's and rc) because my CD-RWs are 650MB ones, 700MB for the final version because I use 700MB CD-R and I want more packages ;-) I fully agree ! I wished to write the same argumentation. Thanks. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Monday 15 September 2003 12:35, Olivier Thauvin wrote: Le Lundi 15 Septembre 2003 12:35, Warly a écrit : A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? No matter, all can be burned on DVD+rw 4.7 GB ;) And all can be installed from mirror network tree. Main+Contrib requires 4.7G DVD, plus another 781MB DVD. -- John Allen, Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MandrakeClub Silver Member.
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Götz Waschk wrote: | | Don't know about your country, but here in Germany you can buy good | TDK CD-RWs with 700MB capacity at Vobis. Seems, that I will have to look again :-) Last time I checked they weren't available around here, but perhaps it changed in the meantime. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZbSZn11XseNj94gRAk0lAKDe5UgaLwU1rL50tpEK9cXChAzpUACfZpEq M62g5WokW9Wi4DceL5Ya5gw= =l6NU -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Le Lundi 15 Septembre 2003 14:39, John Allen a écrit : On Monday 15 September 2003 12:35, Olivier Thauvin wrote: Le Lundi 15 Septembre 2003 12:35, Warly a écrit : A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? No matter, all can be burned on DVD+rw 4.7 GB ;) And all can be installed from mirror network tree. Main+Contrib requires 4.7G DVD, plus another 781MB DVD. you forgot jpackage and plf, add about 1GB :) -- Linux pour Mac !? Enfin le moyen de transformer une pomme en véritable ordinateur. - JL. Olivier Thauvin - http://nanardon.homelinux.org/
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
I still prefer the 650Mb CDs. I have been burning all the Mandrakes since 8.0 (and skipping 9.0) to the same set 650Mb CDRWs. If you stick with 650Mb it makes it one less thing that can go wrong when someone asks to try it. Whatever you do, please don't create two differing sets of CD sizes (i.e. if you go with 700 don't also make a 650 version). This becomes a maintenance nightmare as people will mix up CDs etc.
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Monday 15 September 2003 12:35, Olivier Thauvin wrote: Le Lundi 15 Septembre 2003 12:35, Warly a écrit : A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? No matter, all can be burned on DVD+rw 4.7 GB ;) And all can be installed from mirror network tree. Main+Contrib requires 4.7G DVD, plus another 781MB DVD. for main contrib a DVD + 90min-CD should be OK but, if you package the jpackage nosrpm's and add PLF you'll need a second CD or a DVD or just use a dual side DVD best, svetljo PS. 1.) there is no such thing as 4.7G DVD as there is no such 80.0G/120.0G hard drive 2.) it would be really nice if the kernel team enable udf write support, so DVD+RW media can be used as DVD-RAM -- +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More! +++ Getestet von Stiftung Warentest: GMX FreeMail (GUT), GMX ProMail (GUT) (Heft 9/03 - 23 e-mail-Tarife: 6 gut, 12 befriedigend, 5 ausreichend) Jetzt selbst kostenlos testen: http://www.gmx.net
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On 09/15/2003 06:41:50 AM, Jure Repinc wrote: Warly wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. Yup 700 is the way to go. In shops where I buy them I can't even see any 650 CD-Rs :) We've discussed this before. It doesn't matter if 700 MB CD's are available, it matters if someone wants to install Mandrake on an old i586 to make an ftp server or something. Or old laptops or whatever. They do not have the option of upgrading their CD-ROM drive, and why should they have to? I assume the people with fancy new machines can also download a few extra packages. Austin -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Austin wrote: | We've discussed this before. | It doesn't matter if 700 MB CD's are available, it matters if someone | wants to install Mandrake on an old i586 to make an ftp server or | something. Or old laptops or whatever. They do not have the option of | upgrading their CD-ROM drive, and why should they have to? I assume | the people with fancy new machines can also download a few extra packages. | | Austin I think, that in this case is better to create an unsupported/unofficial ~ version, fitting on 650MB disks, unless Mandrakesoft releases both version (clearly marked, so that there is no confusion and people mixing up disks). Honestly, how many such old machines are going to be installed with Mandrake ? I didn't see a machine unable to read 700MB ISOs in a very long time. If the box is unable to read them, then probably Mandrake isn't the best choice for it anyway - low memory, old CPU and such. Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZcHMn11XseNj94gRAqDGAJ0dVycDyyld8KT46kzvfk5Dgj6P4QCgmkuh 9dKw6anVez1pJRfdU8i7EqQ= =lB4E -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On 09/15/2003 09:42:36 AM, Jan Ciger wrote: Honestly, how many such old machines are going to be installed with Mandrake ? I didn't see a machine unable to read 700MB ISOs in a very long time. If the box is unable to read them, then probably Mandrake isn't the best choice for it anyway - low memory, old CPU and such. You're not going to make any enemies by giving 650 MB CD's to a user with a new machine. You will make some enemies by giving 650 MB CD's to a use with an old machine, especially in the server/laptop market, which is where Mandrake could use some more penetration. This is a perfect incentive to make a one or two DVD set and sell them. If people could order a FULL two DVD set (cheap, without books or boxes), this would be very cool, and generate some profit. Austin -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On 09/15/2003 05:52:36 AM, Austin wrote: You will make some enemies by giving 650 MB CD's to a use with an old machine, Of course I meant 700 MB here. Austin
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Austin wrote: | | On 09/15/2003 05:52:36 AM, Austin wrote: | | You will make some enemies by giving 650 MB CD's to a use with an old | machine, | | | Of course I meant 700 MB here. | Austin Agreed, but the tradeoff is, how many of such enemies are you going to make, compared to benefit of having some more packages on the CDs ? You will never manage to make everybody happy. Mandrake was never targeting old machines or servers, it was/is percieved as desktop distro optimized for current machines (though you can still make a very good servers with it - I am running three myself). You are probably not going to run KDE (the default desktop) or new Gnome on the old machines anyway unless you are a masochist. More valid argument is the problem with people burning 700MB ISOs on 650MB media (I did this mistake myself) or the problems to get 700MB CD-RW media, but it seems to be a less pressing problem today than one year ago (when 9.0 was released on 700MB ISOs). Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZclVn11XseNj94gRAjixAJ9r1dyWX+QsEz4xKhh2fQGuboxzHQCg4GPi JpQxOlg9Ob6v19t4myvDI3g= =N1oF -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jan Ciger wrote: Austin wrote: | | On 09/15/2003 05:52:36 AM, Austin wrote: | | You will make some enemies by giving 650 MB CD's to a use with an old | machine, | | | Of course I meant 700 MB here. | Austin Agreed, but the tradeoff is, how many of such enemies are you going to make, compared to benefit of having some more packages on the CDs ? You will never manage to make everybody happy. But we should try not to piss everybody off ... we've already pissed off the freeloaders who don't like adware (and can't read), now we're going to piss off those who have a dodgy CDROM drive who don't see the need to spend $30 on a new one when they could buy some other distro for the same price or use Redhat instead. And I suspect there may be other news that will piss even more off ... BTW, the problems you see on a machine that can't handle 700MB disks are not that obvious, it looks pretty bad ... Mandrake was never targeting old machines or servers, it was/is percieved as desktop distro optimized for current machines (though you can still make a very good servers with it - I am running three myself). Go look on MandrakeClub, the poll on Do you run Mandrake on a server, desktop, or both. Last I looked, 50% answered both. You are probably not going to run KDE (the default desktop) or new Gnome on the old machines anyway unless you are a masochist. Sure, but Mandrake is a nice distro to put on an ICS box, on a small firewall (if MNF still works) etc etc. Plus we have about 6 WMs in contrib aimed at lowe spec machines. I have a number of production servers with 64MB ram, some on pretty bad hardware (client can't afford proprietary software *or* new hardware). More valid argument is the problem with people burning 700MB ISOs on 650MB media (I did this mistake myself) or the problems to get 700MB CD-RW media, but it seems to be a less pressing problem today than one year ago (when 9.0 was released on 700MB ISOs). Yes, that's another good reason. Warly, is there any reason not to make a 4th (entirely optional) ISO of ~ 200MB? Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZdOzrJK6UGDSBKcRAleYAKCa3uX6p1N3q80tXWHrj2xliyVTCgCgm2gZ YcpKxWeJ8IinXhXYFayySSc= =X69+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Buchan Milne wrote: Warly wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? Most users have =128MB ram, but I don't see us adding features to the installer to take advantage of the extra ram. Remember your minimum requirements. Machines which only just make those requirements are likely to have an older CD-ROM drive, thus we are likely to find users who have problems if we use 700MB. What is the difference between having 700MB CDs, and having 3 650MB CDs and a fourth 150MB CD? It's the same space on the mirror, and it costs the user only an extra $0.50 (well, that's what CD-Rs cost here). Buying a new CD-ROM drive for all the PII machines would cost significantly more ... The oldest CDROM drive I got, a cheap 4X from Mitsumi can read 700MB CD. I bought it while I still had a 486 DX4 100...
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Monday 15 September 2003 10:57 am, Pascal Terjan wrote: Buchan Milne wrote: Warly wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. WDYT? Most users have =128MB ram, but I don't see us adding features to the installer to take advantage of the extra ram. Remember your minimum requirements. Machines which only just make those requirements are likely to have an older CD-ROM drive, thus we are likely to find users who have problems if we use 700MB. What is the difference between having 700MB CDs, and having 3 650MB CDs and a fourth 150MB CD? It's the same space on the mirror, and it costs the user only an extra $0.50 (well, that's what CD-Rs cost here). Buying a new CD-ROM drive for all the PII machines would cost significantly more ... The oldest CDROM drive I got, a cheap 4X from Mitsumi can read 700MB CD. I bought it while I still had a 486 DX4 100... The oldest i have is a 2X liteon that came w/ my compaq 4 years ago. It doesn't work w/ 700 MB cd's. Not that i use it but there are people w/ burners that old (like my mom who i gave it to). What if they (or she) wants to burn the isos. what then. And of course there are just normal CD drives which are older that can't read from those 700 MB cds. I prefer 700 MB myself (and voted for these) but you have to realize there are those out there who will be screwed. My philosophy is better them than me, but mdksoft will have to decide which is better. -- illogic out --- $ partimage -od -f1 -j9 save /dev/hda1 /mnt/stuff/mdk91.bak For a good time see http://www.I-Kubed.Org
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
Le lun 15/09/2003 à 17:21, Jan Ciger a écrit : | Buchan Milne wrote: | Warly, is there any reason not to make a 4th (entirely optional) ISO of | ~ 200MB? That's a good question. I guess, it would be much better, than trying to squeeze everything on just three disks. This would allow using just 650MB disks and render this discussion moot. I too vote for 4th CD. But it would be nice if a summary page tells what you can do with only 1, 2 or 3 of the 4 CD set:) Guillaume B. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?=
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
måndagen den 15 september 2003 22.26 skrev Guillaume Bedot: Le lun 15/09/2003 à 17:21, Jan Ciger a écrit : | Buchan Milne wrote: | Warly, is there any reason not to make a 4th (entirely optional) ISO of | ~ 200MB? That's a good question. I guess, it would be much better, than trying to squeeze everything on just three disks. This would allow using just 650MB disks and render this discussion moot. I too vote for 4th CD. But it would be nice if a summary page tells what you can do with only 1, 2 or 3 of the 4 CD set:) Guillaume B. To be anal and extreme I vote for a small basesystem+urpmi ISO, that way everyone's happy... Get the shit you want. Get more shit if you buy the boxed set. The one that is not able to install whatever he like using urpmi is a damn fool and should not be using a computer anyway. (that is the impression I've got...), it's like a stupid fuck of a father to one of my first girlfriends..., if you can't change the sparkplugs of your own car you shouldn't drive a car.
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Oden Eriksson wrote: | To be anal and extreme I vote for a small basesystem+urpmi ISO, that way | everyone's happy... Get the shit you want. Get more shit if you buy the boxed | set. | | The one that is not able to install whatever he like using urpmi is a damn | fool and should not be using a computer anyway. (that is the impression I've | got...), it's like a stupid fuck of a father to one of my first | girlfriends..., if you can't change the sparkplugs of your own car you | shouldn't drive a car. I am not sure, whether I get your point :-( Jan - -- Jan Ciger VRlab EPFL Switzerland GPG public key : http://www.keyserver.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZiTbn11XseNj94gRAovnAKCVd/4GENCsPSHmvPT1atmA+5z37gCg2XPf AG+M5TfswaEbnzQhq6VhlFg= =WfhN -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Mon Sep 15 16:58 +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: But we should try not to piss everybody off ... we've already pissed off the freeloaders who don't like adware (and can't read), now we're going to piss off those who have a dodgy CDROM drive who don't see the need to spend $30 on a new one when they could buy some other distro for the same price or use Redhat instead. And I suspect there may be other news that will piss even more off ... However, how many people use the ISOs to install on a server (ISOs does *not* include those who buy a boxed version)? I would think that most server installs are net installs. Of course, this might mean having greater promotion of the net install option... -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Take due notice and govern yourselves accordingly. Currently playing: Rush - Moving Pictures - The Camera Eye Linux 2.4.22-0.4mdk 16:53:01 up 6 days, 4:19, 2 users, load average: 0.30, 0.23, 0.19
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Levi Ramsey wrote: On Mon Sep 15 16:58 +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: But we should try not to piss everybody off ... we've already pissed off the freeloaders who don't like adware (and can't read), now we're going to piss off those who have a dodgy CDROM drive who don't see the need to spend $30 on a new one when they could buy some other distro for the same price or use Redhat instead. And I suspect there may be other news that will piss even more off ... However, how many people use the ISOs to install on a server (ISOs does *not* include those who buy a boxed version)? I would think that most server installs are net installs. All my machines with clients are installed of CD or DVD. Of course, this might mean having greater promotion of the net install option... This is only of value of course in places where fast connections are ubiquitous ... I would *stronly* suggest not pissing off users who bought boxed sets (or other media from the store) since they don't have the bandwidth to download ISOs ... Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ZixqrJK6UGDSBKcRAvhhAKCZSHc4KQnBoWwTURlGAexksrIY0wCfcA+N zvFPmJbaBkqUpPRnT4xjauI= =cUeQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:00, Simon Oosthoek wrote: On Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 12:35:01PM +0200, Warly wrote: A poll on club shows that (now) most of the users prefers 700 MB discs over 650 MB ones. But I think 650 (at least for CD1) should be used to be as compatible as possible. It's not always good to cater for the majority, some minorities have a big influence (stupid journalist reviewers...) I agree with this: 650MB for CD1, 700MB for the rest, buys us an extra 100MB without completely cutting off older equipment. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] 9.2 download CD size
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:21, Jan Ciger wrote: I would rather prefer good old 650MB. I can write the images to a CD-RW and when a new version is out, just rewrite them without having old obsolete CDs with old versions laying around. At AUD$0.40 a blank, who cares? Cheers; Leon
