Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
On Sun, 06 Feb 2000, Pieter wrote: BTW: Why does the Reply-To field on Ron's messages not point to the list? Huh? I use kmail and have not changed anything. How does one alter the Reply To in such a way that it is automatically set depending on the folder? He lives in another world maybe ? You're just jealous? -- Regards, Ron. [AU] - sent by Linux.
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
On Sat, 05 Feb 2000, Guy T. Rice wrote: Ron Stodden wrote: Install steps on the left are upside down - Configure X should be at the top, Select Installation Class at the bottom.Progress is conventionally displayed as left to right or upwards (Climbing a tree, the path to heaven, etc.). so as better to conform to a traffic signal etaphor, and conform to 1st quadrant geometry that every one is used to and understands. Please please PLEASE do not do this! That would be extraordinarily confusing! Checklists are normally filled out top to bottom, same as the order English text is normally read in (left to right, top to bottom). And I'm not sure what he's talking about with the traffic signal thing; which traffic signals, GO is at the bottom, so if we're going to use a traffic signal metaphor, we need to get to the bottom before we're ready to GO (i.e. boot). I expect 98% of Mandrake users would find the checklist going from the bottom to the top, especially if readable labels are next to each item, to be extremely counter-intuitive. Ron is obviously in the other 2%. But as long as text labels are next to each item, and those text labels are written in English, they MUST go from top to bottom to obey standard English conventions (read from top to bottom). Alas, but no. Software is a branch of engineering, not of literature. A product of reality, not of fantasy. Installation of software on blank hardware involves the installation of successive layers, each on top of, and dependent upon, the one below.A good examplary metaphor is building a house (or a car, or a bridge, or for that matter, a relationship) . First you must establish the foundation, then build on top of that the floor, and so on.And finally, the roof, at the top. Would you erect the roof first? Then somehow build downwards? Awareness of the layered structure of software is essential to understanding and using Linux on your computer. Memory and disk maps are conventionally drawn with address 00 at the bottom, and filled up from the bottom, just like a glass is filled with liquid or the way bricks are organised into a wall. Would you fill a glass somehow beginning at the top? -- Regards, Ron. [AU] - sent by Linux.
RE: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
Title: RE: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible Dude, what planet are you on?? Does your text on you screen scroll from bottom to top? If you type cls, is your cursor at the bottom of the screen? When you go to write an email, do you start at the bottom and work up? If so, then continue on, you will find no intelligent beings on this planet. Seriously, on every computer I have dealt with (and this only goes back to the Commodore 64), text has always started at the top and went down. Now, my question to the developers is: Do you want to make this user friendly or not? If you want to confuse the heck outta people, then listen to this guy. If you want to attract newbies (which I'm assuming as is the case since all this work was put in on something that the experts don't need), then I would suggest not confusing the newbies. BTW, anyone ever see NASA's countdown? Blast Off is not at the top. It counts down, then takes off. -Original Message- From: Ron Stodden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 5:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible On Sat, 05 Feb 2000, Guy T. Rice wrote: Ron Stodden wrote: Install steps on the left are upside down - Configure X should be at the top, Select Installation Class at the bottom. Progress is conventionally displayed as left to right or upwards (Climbing a tree, the path to heaven, etc.). so as better to conform to a traffic signal etaphor, and conform to 1st quadrant geometry that every one is used to and understands. Please please PLEASE do not do this! That would be extraordinarily confusing! Checklists are normally filled out top to bottom, same as the order English text is normally read in (left to right, top to bottom). And I'm not sure what he's talking about with the traffic signal thing; which traffic signals, GO is at the bottom, so if we're going to use a traffic signal metaphor, we need to get to the bottom before we're ready to GO (i.e. boot). I expect 98% of Mandrake users would find the checklist going from the bottom to the top, especially if readable labels are next to each item, to be extremely counter-intuitive. Ron is obviously in the other 2%. But as long as text labels are next to each item, and those text labels are written in English, they MUST go from top to bottom to obey standard English conventions (read from top to bottom). Alas, but no. Software is a branch of engineering, not of literature. A product of reality, not of fantasy. Installation of software on blank hardware involves the installation of successive layers, each on top of, and dependent upon, the one below. A good examplary metaphor is building a house (or a car, or a bridge, or for that matter, a relationship) . First you must establish the foundation, then build on top of that the floor, and so on. And finally, the roof, at the top. Would you erect the roof first? Then somehow build downwards? Awareness of the layered structure of software is essential to understanding and using Linux on your computer. Memory and disk maps are conventionally drawn with address 00 at the bottom, and filled up from the bottom, just like a glass is filled with liquid or the way bricks are organised into a wall. Would you fill a glass somehow beginning at the top? -- Regards, Ron. [AU] - sent by Linux.
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
Ron Stodden wrote: Alas, but no. Software is a branch of engineering, not of literature. A product of reality, not of fantasy. Installation of software on blank hardware involves the installation of successive layers, each on top of, and dependent upon, the one below.A good examplary metaphor is building a house (or a car, or a bridge, or for that matter, a relationship) . First you must establish the foundation, then build on top of that the floor, and so on.And finally, the roof, at the top. First of all, this is utterly irrelevant to the question at hand. But just for arguments sake, I should point out that although this is the correct way to build a house, it's the wrong way to build software. At least, according to the people with the Ph.D.s at the University I went to. Good software is designed from a top-down approach. Spagetti code is written from the bottom-up. Not that this is in any way relevant to how to organize text labels written in English. Even if I were to grant that software should be designed and written from the bottom up, why would this have anything to do with what order English text should flow across the screen? Would you erect the roof first? Then somehow build downwards? So, when you write the comments and design documentation for code you're working on, do you start writing at the bottom of the page and work upwards? Man, I'd get kicked out of my company if I followed _your_ model! Awareness of the layered structure of software is essential to understanding and using Linux on your computer. Memory and disk maps are conventionally drawn with address 00 at the bottom, and filled up from the bottom, just like a glass is filled with liquid or the way bricks are organised into a wall. Hmm. When I type "hexedit somefile" on my computer, is at the top, not the bottom. Which program follows your "convention"? Would you fill a glass somehow beginning at the top? Nope. This is, of course, completely and utterly irrelevant to the fact that English text should always flow from top to bottom, not the other way around. English text is not software. If we're going to have a checklist of items completed on the side of the screen, each having a text label, they need to go from top to bottom. Writing English is not the same as writing software. *** BTW: Why does the Reply-To field on Ron's messages not point to the list? -- Guy T. Rice -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- "Every human being should pursue his or her own dharma perfectly instead of following another's dharma imperfectly." -- Hindu scriptures
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
At 20:24 05/02/00 -0600, you wrote: BTW: Why does the Reply-To field on Ron's messages not point to the list? He lives in another world maybe ? Regards, Pieter Voortman
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
Ok i can't hold back.. Do you really think they have alcohol funny car drivers stareing at the sky when the lights go green. They don't trust me my whole family drives or has driven. And quite personal if i'm working in the sun or snow damned right i'm going to find a way to get a roof up before anything else. A teepee is laced from top to bottom also. Basicly, top to bottom bottom to top who the f**k really cares it's not broke is it..? To change it for some philisophical reasons makes no sense. At first i thought you just wanted to run the install at a different resolution, which was a much better than "because so-in-so did yadda yadda". It has merit for machines with only a Television to display on that way atleast :) And it does that because he sets his reply-to, so we assume that means s/he needs or wants it, so we do not re-write them. You'll see them on others too. :) sorry i just thought it was a funny thread
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
maybe he's from venus instead of mars? On Sat, 05 Feb 2000, you wrote: At 20:24 05/02/00 -0600, you wrote: BTW: Why does the Reply-To field on Ron's messages not point to the list? He lives in another world maybe ? Regards, Pieter Voortman -- Sent from: Lattitude (deg):32.7130 Longitude (deg):-117.1530 Altitude (ft): 410.0 GMT to Local (hrs): -8.0 (daylight savings enabled) Created with Linux-Mandrake 7.0! http://www.linux-mandrake.com/ Currently Beta Testing Mandrake Ver 7.0
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
Ron Stodden wrote: Install steps on the left are upside down - Configure X should be at the top, Select Installation Class at the bottom.Progress is conventionally displayed as left to right or upwards (Climbing a tree, the path to heaven, etc.). so as better to conform to a traffic signal etaphor, and conform to 1st quadrant geometry that every one is used to and understands. Please please PLEASE do not do this! That would be extraordinarily confusing! Checklists are normally filled out top to bottom, same as the order English text is normally read in (left to right, top to bottom). And I'm not sure what he's talking about with the traffic signal thing; which traffic signals, GO is at the bottom, so if we're going to use a traffic signal metaphor, we need to get to the bottom before we're ready to GO (i.e. boot). I expect 98% of Mandrake users would find the checklist going from the bottom to the top, especially if readable labels are next to each item, to be extremely counter-intuitive. Ron is obviously in the other 2%. But as long as text labels are next to each item, and those text labels are written in English, they MUST go from top to bottom to obey standard English conventions (read from top to bottom). The input of networking information is too late, since networking characteristics influence the selection of RPMs to install. I hope not. My network card can't be detected during install (requires ISA PnP tools and a config file). I can't answer yes to networking since it then attempts to configure things it can't. I need to answer no here, then set things up manually later. If it then fails to install RPMs I need for networking because I said "No" to _configure_ my network during install, this would be highly annoying. What RPMs are installed or not should depend on my installation class. What I _configure_ during installation is a seperate issue entirely, and _should not affect_ what is installed. Supermount is fixed to only accept a vfat floppy. Set fs=auto and modprobe complains 'no such module'. Ext2 floppies must be mountable. Then say no to supermount during install. Supermount cannot autodetect filesystems. When you say "fs=xxx" there needs to be a filesystem named xxx. If it's not compiled into the kernel, it attempts to load the module "xxx.o" and if that doesn't exist (such as "auto.o"), you get the "no such module" error. -- Guy T. Rice -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- "Every human being should pursue his or her own dharma perfectly instead of following another's dharma imperfectly." -- Hindu scriptures
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
On Sat, 05 Feb 2000, Guy T. Rice wrote in an email to me: The input of networking information is too late, since networking characteristics influence the selection of RPMs to install. I hope not. My network card can't be detected during install (requires ISA PnP tools and a config file). I can't answer yes to networking since it then attempts to configure things it can't. I need to answer no here, then set things up manually later. If it then fails to install RPMs I need for networking because I said "No" to _configure_ my network during install, this would be highly annoying. What RPMs are installed or not should depend on my installation class. Installation class is one thing. Networking is another distinct orthogonal thing, since all classes may or may not be networking (except server, where a networking assumption may be valid). Both these orthogonal attributes affect the choice of RPMs. What I _configure_ during installation is a seperate issue entirely, and _should not affect_ what is installed. The end product of an installation process is an immediately usable product, surely? Therefore configuration for a specific usage is properly an intrinsic part of installation (though IMO it must be pre-scriptable (and post-scriptable) so the same installation can be repeated any number of times without reinputting the decisions). -- Regards, Ron. [AU] - sent by Linux.
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
On 2 Feb 2000, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: "l" == linux-gorius [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: l You could find the Mandrake 7 V2 ISO on the mandrake FTP server l today. I know it's extra bother, but for those of us who had to arrange for CD's to be burned and mailed to us, is there any way we could create an 'updates/7.0v1' directory for just those packages that were corrected in 7.0v2? For any 7.0 bugs there will be updates. Jeff
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
Gary Lawrence Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In lieu of an updates directory, is there a place were you have summarized all of the packages that have been updated in v2? I don't mind fetching them the old-fashioned way ;) maybe the cause of misunderstanding is not there's really not much update in term of packages. There's only drakxtools that has been updated and only a for the resize fat bug.
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
On Fri, 04 Feb 2000, Quel Qun wrote: Hmm... I think the concept of quadrant geometry is mainly used in the US and military which is, mind you, different from every one. Have you ever seen how a formula 1 race starts? The cars are stopped under 3 red lights, waiting for them to switch to green. Would you guess in which order? From top to bottom, bingo! Somehow, I would prefer this metaphor. Traffic signal...brrr. Hey, no offence I hope. Just expressing a different view. It's just a pot-stirrer, to wake everyone up before they read on g. /etc/hosts is not set up - the networking information collected should include what is necessary to do this. That's true. Also, I am using the company dhcp server to get my IPs, but my machine names are not known by the DNS (IS departement by-pass). I would expect the install process to ask me for the host name. The old text install did. The new one just let me with localhost and does not install my NIC 3c509 module. The new installer DOES ask for the host name. It does not ask for other host names on the same network and their IPs for putting in /etc/hosts. I have not tried the new text installer. -- Regards, Ron. [AU] - sent by Linux.
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
Do not send any E-Mail to this Screen name [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are interupting my computer and filling my E-Mail with messages. No more E-Mail to this site. Thank You, How did you get this E-Mail Address? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed 02 Feb at 13:58:54 +0100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] done said: You could find the Mandrake 7 V2 ISO on the mandrake FTP server today. It may be saturated because of all the mirors that sould download today, but you should check. It may release the boot disks, the root login on ftp server and the high level of security during installation. Everyone hope it will be the good one... Will there be a changelog or anything of the sort released describing what has been changed since the previous iso image? here it is: - fixed: bug in fat resizing - fixed: bad error catching in auto fat resizing - fixed: auto fat resizing only for `Recommended' - fixed: Mylex DAC 960 non detectiong - fixed: buggy entries in pcitable that made DrakX try to install server `' (empty string). Mostly for Matrox G100 - added: auto detection of one more GeForce - fixed: `DECchip 21041 [Tulip Pass 3]' driver is now de4x5 - fixed: `DECchip 21050' is not a NIC! - fixed: for east european languages, the 75dpi fonts were not installed - workaround: for east european languages (and maybe others), the TIS fontset from the mdk fonts was taken by Qt (it should have taken the iso8859-[29]). chkfontpath remove and re-add the mdk font directory fix this. The problem is fixed correctly with last qt from cooker - fixed: conv=auto changed to conv=binary (was causing kfm freeze and could garbage binaries) known install bugs not corrected (that i remember): - install not booting (stage2 not found and alike errors) :( - can't be reproduced - install X server not working (GTK saying can't connect to X server) :( - can't be reproduced - promise not detected (patch available at www.linux-mandrake.com/en/airlast.php3, but it seems it doesn't work) - PS/2 mistakenly detected (patch available at www.linux-mandrake.com/en/airlast.php3, but it seems it doesn't work?) - no PCI box (patch available at www.linux-mandrake.com/en/airlast.php3) - chineese Big5 is not displayed correctly (workaround: boot install with ``linux mem=39M) - bulgarian not displayed correctly - bad symlink /dev/cdromX to hdX in case of ide burner (fix: change the link to scd0 (or maybe scd1...))
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
"l" == linux-gorius [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: l You could find the Mandrake 7 V2 ISO on the mandrake FTP server l today. I know it's extra bother, but for those of us who had to arrange for CD's to be burned and mailed to us, is there any way we could create an 'updates/7.0v1' directory for just those packages that were corrected in 7.0v2? -- Gary Lawrence Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Telecom Services : Internet Consulting : http://www.teledyn.com Linux/GNU Education Group: http://www.egroups.com/group/linux-education/ "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
Please do!! I have already setup my Mandrake 7.0 final machine... I don't want to have to reinstall. hehe. Quoting Gary Lawrence Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: "l" == linux-gorius [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: l You could find the Mandrake 7 V2 ISO on the mandrake FTP server l today. I know it's extra bother, but for those of us who had to arrange for CD's to be burned and mailed to us, is there any way we could create an 'updates/7.0v1' directory for just those packages that were corrected in 7.0v2? -- Gary Lawrence Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Telecom Services : Internet Consulting : http://www.teledyn.com Linux/GNU Education Group: http://www.egroups.com/group/linux-education/ "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso) Ryan Wahle [EMAIL PROTECTED] InnerCite
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
"P" == Pixel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: P Gary Lawrence Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I know it's extra bother, but for those of us who had to arrange for CD's to be burned and mailed to us, is there any way we could create an 'updates/7.0v1' directory for just those packages that were corrected in 7.0v2? P take the images from updates/images P they do the same fixes, except for the 75dpi fonts for P iso8859-[29] Perhaps you misunderstood: Without high-speed access or a CD burner, downloading new iso images is not practical, and there are only a dozen or so packages which have changed. What I'd hoped is to have a directory of just the updated RPMs so I'd only need to launch MandrakeUpdate (with a hacked last line to set the version number) I realize we can't use the normal 7.0 (or 7.00?) updates directory because these will hold updates to the formal release, but without the updates added between the first iso and the final edition, I'm also afraid my system will never notice buggy packages (unless there are further updates after the formal release) In lieu of an updates directory, is there a place were you have summarized all of the packages that have been updated in v2? I don't mind fetching them the old-fashioned way ;) -- Gary Lawrence Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] TeleDynamics Communications Inc Business Telecom Services : Internet Consulting : http://www.teledyn.com Linux/GNU Education Group: http://www.egroups.com/group/linux-education/ "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."(Pablo Picasso)
Re: [Cooker] Mandrake 7 ISO V2 soon avalaible
On Thu, 03 Feb 2000, Pixel wrote: known install bugs not corrected (that i remember): - install not booting (stage2 not found and alike errors) :( - can't be reproduced - install X server not working (GTK saying can't connect to X server) :( - can't be reproduced - promise not detected (patch available at www.linux-mandrake.com/en/airlast.php3, but it seems it doesn't work) - PS/2 mistakenly detected (patch available at www.linux-mandrake.com/en/airlast.php3, but it seems it doesn't work?) - no PCI box (patch available at www.linux-mandrake.com/en/airlast.php3) - chineese Big5 is not displayed correctly (workaround: boot install with ``linux mem=39M) - bulgarian not displayed correctly - bad symlink /dev/cdromX to hdX in case of ide burner (fix: change the link to scd0 (or maybe scd1...)) Allow me to continue your llist just a little bit g. My comments are based on 7.0, not the new 7.0-2, and refer to a Customized Development installation. Install steps on the left are upside down - Configure X should be at the top, Select Installation Class at the bottom.Progress is conventionally displayed as left to right or upwards (Climbing a tree, the path to heaven, etc.). so as better to conform to a traffic signal etaphor, and conform to 1st quadrant geometry that every one is used to and understands. The installation class is input before the install/upgrade decision.This is frustrating nonsense because during an update the installation class cannot be changed from what was selected at the initial installl.IMO, it's a basic requirement that it should be able to be changed, including deleting RPMs. Install or Update should include a third option - update from another Mandrake on another partition (used read-only).Essential! The input of networking information is too late, since networking characteristics influence the selection of RPMs to install. Ipchains is not set up according to the security level chosen - you just can't talk about medium or high security without this. /etc/hosts is not set up - the networking information collected should include what is necessary to do this. The directory setup under /mnt is useless for networked machines. Each machine needs a /mnt/local/whatever and a /mnt/remote/whatever or /mnt/machine/whatever. Otherwise total confusion reigns. The booting process adds /mnt/floppy, /mnt/cdrom, etc if they do not exist. Surely this process should work from the contents of /etc/fstab? Further, this directory creation is done AFTER the local filesystems are mounted. Crazy mount points and desktop icons are set up, eg 'DOS_hda5'. Why are these not /mnt/local/C, /mnt/local/D, etc? There is no need for the desktop icons if the much better kdf is used (see below). If a mount directory specified in /etc/fstab does not exist, the whole bootup process falls over. Supermount is fixed to only accept a vfat floppy. Set fs=auto and modprobe complains 'no such module'. Ext2 floppies must be mountable. Kdf is not installed. Pixel reports that it 'will not compile'.Yet the kdf rpm from from 6.1 installs and works perfectly as long as it was an initial install.It won't install on an upgrade installation. Kdf is a critically vital part of KDE. The nfs-utils RPM is not installed.Without this there can be no networking. The nfs daemon is not started in SysVInit. Therefore no networking. This was true of 6.1 as well. /etc/exports is not set up. Without this done on all machines on a network, no machine can mount directories on other machines on the same network. Enough for now? -- Regards, Ron. [AU] - sent by Linux.
