Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
÷ ðÔÎ, 08.03.2002, × 18:58, Guillaume Cottenceau ÎÁÐÉÓÁÌ:
>
> I think it has always been like this. Though probably in beta
> moments, there are more "newbies". But OTOH we badly need these
> bugreports.
>
Sure, but ...
> I personally use scoring on people and themes; I don't read posts
> which only contain quotes on the first 50 lines ("respect the
> netiquette or be silently ignored"); I don't read posts which
> only have "bug" as subject, or another irrelevant/generic
> subject. With these few rules Cooker ML is still usable for me..
>
... this effectively rules out many of these reports :(
The only way to deal with it is to have working bug report system and
stuff that does filtering and collects diagnostic information initially.
-andrej
>
> --
> Guillaume Cottenceau - http://www.frozen-bubble.org/
>
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
Borsenkow Andrej <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Still I feel that even if I used wrong words, the meaning was right. I
> remember time when I read every post on cooker. Now I mostly read either
> posts from known persons or posts with obviously interesting subjects.
> Because chances are too high that any other post would contain "why this
> or that does not work?" without much explanation what was "this" or
> "that" or what "does not work" mean.
I think it has always been like this. Though probably in beta
moments, there are more "newbies". But OTOH we badly need these
bugreports.
I personally use scoring on people and themes; I don't read posts
which only contain quotes on the first 50 lines ("respect the
netiquette or be silently ignored"); I don't read posts which
only have "bug" as subject, or another irrelevant/generic
subject. With these few rules Cooker ML is still usable for me..
--
Guillaume Cottenceau - http://www.frozen-bubble.org/
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
SI Reasoning wrote: > This is just a temporary influx of novice helpers who > are having their first stab at assisting with bug > reports. We all have our first times and wing it as > best as we know how. Maybe a simple reporting faq is > in order to help orient those who want to help? > > I am still trying to learn the ropes myself and only > get better as I get feedback. The faq should contain > some basic debugging commands, as well as a link to > the cooker archive to encourage people to look if > their problem has already been reported. > 8.2 is drawing near, and Cooker has more input. This can only be a good thing, sicne it means more people are using it. I think that if a question/problem has to do with Cooker, then this is the right place. Sometimes I ask more "tech support" type questions when I am reading the list when I am tired, so I think that even if a new user's bug reports "suck", so again, if it's a bug report about Cooker this is probably the right list to stick it on. Should there be a page on how to write good bug reports? Sure. How do we make people read this before subscribing? I don't know, send them an email when they subscribe. Have the bug report (URL) as part of this message. Since bugzilla is restricted, one still doesn't have a nice way to query if a bug is reported if they are a newbie. Due to the high volume of the list, I, too, sometimes miss things even though I try to "read" the whole thing. -- Sincerely, David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RE: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
This is just a temporary influx of novice helpers who are having their first stab at assisting with bug reports. We all have our first times and wing it as best as we know how. Maybe a simple reporting faq is in order to help orient those who want to help? I am still trying to learn the ropes myself and only get better as I get feedback. The faq should contain some basic debugging commands, as well as a link to the cooker archive to encourage people to look if their problem has already been reported. --- Borsenkow Andrej <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I apologize if I sounded harsh. I was in really bad > mood. > > Still I feel that even if I used wrong words, the > meaning was right. I > remember time when I read every post on cooker. Now > I mostly read either > posts from known persons or posts with obviously > interesting subjects. > Because chances are too high that any other post > would contain "why this > or that does not work?" without much explanation > what was "this" or > "that" or what "does not work" mean. > > -andrej > = SI Reasoning [EMAIL PROTECTED] A requirement of creativity is that it contributes to change. Creativity keeps the creator alive. -FRANK HERBERT, unpublished notes __ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/
RE: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
I apologize if I sounded harsh. I was in really bad mood. Still I feel that even if I used wrong words, the meaning was right. I remember time when I read every post on cooker. Now I mostly read either posts from known persons or posts with obviously interesting subjects. Because chances are too high that any other post would contain "why this or that does not work?" without much explanation what was "this" or "that" or what "does not work" mean. -andrej
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
On Wednesday 06 March 2002 07:31 am, you wrote: > > 8. Who made you list moderator? > > he's not moderating you, he's explaining what he thinks, and as a > top contributor of cooker he has 100% rights to do so in that > way. The ends justify the means. -- Hoyt http://www.maximumhoyt.com There are no dumb questions; only dumb bosses.
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
Leon Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > 6. [Guillame please note] even patches and stuff which seem irrelevant >to the majority, such as the LVM-on-/ one recently discussed, may >be useful to *someone*, and so their posting should be encouraged >for that reason alone; and so what? first, "pretending something doesn't necessarily make you right". second, I never told the opposite on LVM-on-/, the point is that when something is irrelevant to the majority and need large modifications and/or important drawbacks for the majority, it is rejected (by me at least). [...] > 8. Who made you list moderator? he's not moderating you, he's explaining what he thinks, and as a top contributor of cooker he has 100% rights to do so in that way. -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://www.frozen-bubble.org/
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
I completely aggree with this notice :) A lot of cooker exchanges involve asking and asking the same questions : what package do u have, what levels, do u have a trace etc etc... PPL could use some of a check list before posting to cooker, just in order to reduce traffic and improve big reports. Pascal > Maybe a Cooker-list welcome page at linux-mandrake.com would be a good > idea? Something that would explain the list and how to file a good bug > report? Not quite a real FAQ (that would fill up too quickly and be > obsolete), but a general guide. > > It's after 4 AM as I post this, so maybe my brain is non-functional...
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
Wow Leon, I couldn't have said it better. Excellent!! I think we should all remember that we were all newbies at one time. And we should also remember that not all of us are developers, but want to help by beta testing, and thereby submitting reports of what we see. And of course wouldn't mind passing along more info to a patient Mandrakesoft developer when asked, and we are given the commands to get that information. --Bill === Leon Brooks wrote: >On Tuesday 05 March 2002 22:51, Borsenkow Andrej wrote: > >>It is development list. People are expected to debug there problems and >>come here with at least suggestions what has to be done to fix them not >>coming here ranting and wining. There are enough other places for it. Or >>at least report problems in such way that makes it possible to track >>them down (not that I am always doing it this way myself :-) >> > >1. a report that there *is* a problem is more useful even with no hint > of a fix than no report; and > >2. having to put up with 90% spurious reports is better than a release > with a showstopper; and > >3. How on earth do you expect to have more developers (who qualify as > such in your eyes) on this list if you discourage the budding ones > before they really get started?; and > >4. IIRC, in the open source world at least, lists are here for helping > people, and the best way to do that is to educate people rather than > simply telling them off; and > >5. Many of the people who report to this list have no time, resources > or specific skills to contribute much more than they do; and > >6. A tight feedback loop is a key part of producing excellent software; > and > >6. [Guillame please note] even patches and stuff which seem irrelevant > to the majority, such as the LVM-on-/ one recently discussed, may > be useful to *someone*, and so their posting should be encouraged > for that reason alone; and > >7. Open Source is a funny place where the minority are in the majority, > or in other words, the flexibility and availability of the software > makes it *possible* (nobody sane claims `easy') for *everyone* to > get what they want out of it, even if they don't happen to fall near > the ephemeral `mainstream'; and > >8. Who made you list moderator? > >So... please go easy on the newbies, please encourage reports even if they >don't meet your high standards, please acknowledge reports that are useful to >you, please patiently educate rather than browbeating, or at least hold your >peace. > >Cheers; Leon >
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
On Wed Mar 06 9:04 +0100, Warly wrote: > Cooker is our principle and precious development help, as a consequence: > > - If there is too many unexperienced user, developpers will lose a lot > of time trying to know what it is really going on, and Andrej is right > to say that if the user investigate a little bit, it is great help and > will decrease the odds that the bug report is just ignored. > > - If there is too many noise, developpers will stop to read cooker, or > reduce the time they spend to read it. This is unfortunately already > happening. > > - We have to encourage people so that the distro will be better and > better, and trying to help and to teach users as you said Leon is > certainly a good investment for the quality and the future of the list > > - We do not have to lose time with non efficient people, or people > that just complain and have no time or no willing to help or to learn. > > - You are right Leon to says that it is more important to know a > showstopper than nothing, but it is unlikely than a showstopper will > only be seen by only newbies and not experienced users, and such > users have plenty of means to report problems apart from cooker, and > be filtered by the community and do not make a developper lose his > precious time 9 times over 10. > > The conclusion is that we must be very demanding on cooker members, > but we must be also very tolerant with new commers that have a real > willing to help and to learn. However there are others mailing lists > for them to learn too, such as expert or like. And it is very > important that we keep a very high signal/noise ratio, or developpers > will simply stop reading cooker, and the same pb that we experienced > with bugzilla will happen. Of course not everyone could be as > efficient as Andrej and some others are, but if you do not aim at > that, I think that maybe this list is not for you. Maybe a Cooker-list welcome page at linux-mandrake.com would be a good idea? Something that would explain the list and how to file a good bug report? Not quite a real FAQ (that would fill up too quickly and be obsolete), but a general guide. It's after 4 AM as I post this, so maybe my brain is non-functional... -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] When it comes down to desperation, You make the best of your situation. Linux 2.4.17-20mdk 4:01am up 8 days, 13:43, 16 users, load average: 0.17, 0.31, 0.27
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
Thank god some common sense is appearing at last Thank you Leon br richard On Wed, 2002-03-06 at 01:07, Leon Brooks wrote: > On Tuesday 05 March 2002 22:51, Borsenkow Andrej wrote: > > It is development list. People are expected to debug there problems and > > come here with at least suggestions what has to be done to fix them not > > coming here ranting and wining. There are enough other places for it. Or > > at least report problems in such way that makes it possible to track > > them down (not that I am always doing it this way myself :-) > > 1. a report that there *is* a problem is more useful even with no hint >of a fix than no report; and > > 2. having to put up with 90% spurious reports is better than a release >with a showstopper; and > > 3. How on earth do you expect to have more developers (who qualify as >such in your eyes) on this list if you discourage the budding ones >before they really get started?; and > > 4. IIRC, in the open source world at least, lists are here for helping >people, and the best way to do that is to educate people rather than >simply telling them off; and > > 5. Many of the people who report to this list have no time, resources >or specific skills to contribute much more than they do; and > > 6. A tight feedback loop is a key part of producing excellent software; >and > > 6. [Guillame please note] even patches and stuff which seem irrelevant >to the majority, such as the LVM-on-/ one recently discussed, may >be useful to *someone*, and so their posting should be encouraged >for that reason alone; and > > 7. Open Source is a funny place where the minority are in the majority, >or in other words, the flexibility and availability of the software >makes it *possible* (nobody sane claims `easy') for *everyone* to >get what they want out of it, even if they don't happen to fall near >the ephemeral `mainstream'; and > > 8. Who made you list moderator? > > So... please go easy on the newbies, please encourage reports even if they > don't meet your high standards, please acknowledge reports that are useful to > you, please patiently educate rather than browbeating, or at least hold your > peace. > > Cheers; Leon >
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
Leon Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Tuesday 05 March 2002 22:51, Borsenkow Andrej wrote: >> It is development list. People are expected to debug there problems and >> come here with at least suggestions what has to be done to fix them not >> coming here ranting and wining. There are enough other places for it. Or >> at least report problems in such way that makes it possible to track >> them down (not that I am always doing it this way myself :-) > > 1. a report that there *is* a problem is more useful even with no hint >of a fix than no report; and [...] > > So... please go easy on the newbies, please encourage reports even if they > don't meet your high standards, please acknowledge reports that are useful to > you, please patiently educate rather than browbeating, or at least hold your > peace. Cooker is our principle and precious development help, as a consequence: - If there is too many unexperienced user, developpers will lose a lot of time trying to know what it is really going on, and Andrej is right to say that if the user investigate a little bit, it is great help and will decrease the odds that the bug report is just ignored. - If there is too many noise, developpers will stop to read cooker, or reduce the time they spend to read it. This is unfortunately already happening. - We have to encourage people so that the distro will be better and better, and trying to help and to teach users as you said Leon is certainly a good investment for the quality and the future of the list - We do not have to lose time with non efficient people, or people that just complain and have no time or no willing to help or to learn. - You are right Leon to says that it is more important to know a showstopper than nothing, but it is unlikely than a showstopper will only be seen by only newbies and not experienced users, and such users have plenty of means to report problems apart from cooker, and be filtered by the community and do not make a developper lose his precious time 9 times over 10. The conclusion is that we must be very demanding on cooker members, but we must be also very tolerant with new commers that have a real willing to help and to learn. However there are others mailing lists for them to learn too, such as expert or like. And it is very important that we keep a very high signal/noise ratio, or developpers will simply stop reading cooker, and the same pb that we experienced with bugzilla will happen. Of course not everyone could be as efficient as Andrej and some others are, but if you do not aim at that, I think that maybe this list is not for you. -- Warly
Re: [Cooker] Andrej, behave yourself!
Wow Leon, I couldn't have said it better. Excellent!! I think we should all remember that we were all newbies at one time. And we should also remember that not all of us are developers, but want to help by beta testing, and thereby submitting reports of what we see. And of course wouldn't mind passing along more info to a patient Mandrakesoft developer when asked, and we are given the commands to get that information. But sometimes some of us are also goot at making suggestions for making our favorite distro a better one. I personally don't have a need for most of the server stuff, but would love to see a tremendous desktop release!! And I would dare say that a good portion of the newbies coming over from windows feel the same way. So we all need to be patient and kind with each other (me included, or maybe especially :) ), I mean after all, we all have the same goal I think, and would hope. --Bill === Leon Brooks wrote: >On Tuesday 05 March 2002 22:51, Borsenkow Andrej wrote: > >>It is development list. People are expected to debug there problems and >>come here with at least suggestions what has to be done to fix them not >>coming here ranting and wining. There are enough other places for it. Or >>at least report problems in such way that makes it possible to track >>them down (not that I am always doing it this way myself :-) >> > >1. a report that there *is* a problem is more useful even with no hint > of a fix than no report; and > >2. having to put up with 90% spurious reports is better than a release > with a showstopper; and > >3. How on earth do you expect to have more developers (who qualify as > such in your eyes) on this list if you discourage the budding ones > before they really get started?; and > >4. IIRC, in the open source world at least, lists are here for helping > people, and the best way to do that is to educate people rather than > simply telling them off; and > >5. Many of the people who report to this list have no time, resources > or specific skills to contribute much more than they do; and > >6. A tight feedback loop is a key part of producing excellent software; > and > >6. [Guillame please note] even patches and stuff which seem irrelevant > to the majority, such as the LVM-on-/ one recently discussed, may > be useful to *someone*, and so their posting should be encouraged > for that reason alone; and > >7. Open Source is a funny place where the minority are in the majority, > or in other words, the flexibility and availability of the software > makes it *possible* (nobody sane claims `easy') for *everyone* to > get what they want out of it, even if they don't happen to fall near > the ephemeral `mainstream'; and > >8. Who made you list moderator? > >So... please go easy on the newbies, please encourage reports even if they >don't meet your high standards, please acknowledge reports that are useful to >you, please patiently educate rather than browbeating, or at least hold your >peace. > >Cheers; Leon >
