Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:01, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Fri Aug 16 10:59 +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: (Interestingly, my spellchecker doesn't appear to pick up the word spellcheck or the word spellchecker. Crazy. It's happy with spell checker, though. That's what it calls itself. Hmm. I think i'm going to go take a shower.) Spellcheckers often have problems with agglutinative words... almost makes me wonder how a German spellchecker would work... ;o) Google and Babelfish both choke. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
I think you missed the point. If a user doesn't need to see something, don't show it to them. Everything should just work. The user should only see error messages if something fails. Too much explanations in Software of everything the system is doing implies the developer is drowned in the code rather than thinking more about the interface to the user. Professionalism doesn't have to do only with how beautiful it looks. It has more to do with how obvious the interface looks and how it doesn't get into the way of the user. The interface has to show that some thought has gone into the placement of almost every pixel on screen. It should feel natural. It doesn't mean that it should loose functionality, but that it shouldn't ask the user to make too many choices. Designing for newbies does not mean that the interface is meant for newbies. It means that newbies are the bottom line. It means that the interface should behave like what a reasonable person should expect it to behave if using it for the first time. Newbie != idiot Newbie != anti-geek Your last statement may have been meant as a joke but if you give a little bit of thought to it you realize it makes some sense, although you incorrectly implied that a newbie will not need a compiler. Just because somebody never used Linux before doesn't mean he doesn't need a compiler. Besides, why is Mandrake so poplular? Because they have a lower bottom line that most other distributions. Let me end by quoting Joelonsoftware: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog64.html ... there is a much worse kind of arrogance in software design: the arrogant assumption that my software is so damn cool, people are just going to have to warp their brains around it. This kind of chutzpah is pretty common in the free software world. Hey, Linux is free! If you're not smart enough to decipher it, you don't deserve to be using it! On Thu, 2002-08-15 at 05:06, Yura Gusev wrote: I dont think that those messages make linux unprofessional or difficult for newbies. They simply have to wait 10 sec for the GDM login screen (or even autologin) and then login in their KDE and open StarOffice XMMS and Mozilla. Remember: a) Build a system that any idiot can use and they will make a better idiot. b) Build a system that any idiot can use and only idiots will use it. Just a joke ;-) For the complete newbies i think we should make a new Mandrake distribution: one CD, no compilers and development packages, no emacs ;-), pre-configured programs and only one package for a task.
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On 16 Aug 2002 10:17:26 +0200 Michel Fodje [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me end by quoting Joelonsoftware: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog64.html ... there is a much worse kind of arrogance in software design: the arrogant assumption that my software is so damn cool, people are just going to have to warp their brains around it. This kind of chutzpah is pretty common in the free software world. Hey, Linux is free! If you're not smart enough to decipher it, you don't deserve to be using it! One of the biggest problems hitting the Linux world is the failure of people to understand the different approach taken by Unix systems to solving problems. Mandrake Linux is what I use on my desktop, I put redhat or debian on servers. I'm considering dropping Mandrake for my desktop - and let me take a second to explain why. Unix style operating systems are based on a very different OS architecture to Windows style systems. This is seen clearly in the component model for applications. Loads of little applications that do a specific job well. Loads of lightweight processes that can communicate with each other to deliver an overall solution. The 'power' of the Unix approach is that you are not forced to take any single path to solve your problem, you choose the path that means most to you - the one that best fits your needs. The Windows approach is clearly different, it says there shall be only one way, and you will use it. The windows approach makes it easier for beginners to get a handle on - simply because they have no choice, and no-one else has any choice in how things are done.. So beginners and experts alike have to do things the same way. Unix is *different*, that doesn't mean that it must be harder, but it's strengths are in being different. The recent push of Linux to the Desktop taken the windows approach, and we're trying to build a huge single monolith of an operating system without all the flexibility of the back-end.. Gnome is a classic example , if you install gnome then to hell with you if you don't want Nautilus. Choice is being lost.. The arguments about Aurora / OSS / ALSA are the same, people are trying to restrict choice. I can't stand Aurora (personally) but I can quite happily accept that it is probably useful for some people out there. I fully accept that the 'beginner' install needs to make most of the choices for the end user, and that the expert install needs to allow people to thrash the hell out of their machine - but maybe it's time for an 'intermediate' install. Linux has taken on the world because it offered choices... Let's not kill Mandrake because we fail to continue offering choices. Just my 0.02 Euro -- Chris Higgins Horizon e: chris.higgins at hts.horizon.ie tel: +353-1-6204900 fax: +353-1-6204901
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Fri, 2002-08-16 at 09:47, Chris Higgins wrote: ... there is a much worse kind of arrogance in software design: the arrogant assumption that my software is so damn cool, people are just going to have to warp their brains around it. This kind of chutzpah is pretty common in the free software world. Hey, Linux is free! If you're not smart enough to decipher it, you don't deserve to be using it! One of the biggest problems hitting the Linux world is the failure of people to understand the different approach taken by Unix systems to solving problems. Mandrake Linux is what I use on my desktop, I put redhat or debian on servers. I'm considering dropping Mandrake for my desktop - and let me take a second to explain why. Unix style operating systems are based on a very different OS architecture to Windows style systems. This is seen clearly in the component model for applications. Loads of little applications that do a specific job well. Loads of lightweight processes that can communicate with each other to deliver an overall solution. The 'power' of the Unix approach is that you are not forced to take any single path to solve your problem, you choose the path that means most to you - the one that best fits your needs. The Windows approach is clearly different, it says there shall be only one way, and you will use it. The windows approach makes it easier for beginners to get a handle on - simply because they have no choice, and no-one else has any choice in how things are done.. So beginners and experts alike have to do things the same way. Unix is *different*, that doesn't mean that it must be harder, but it's strengths are in being different. The recent push of Linux to the Desktop taken the windows approach, and we're trying to build a huge single monolith of an operating system without all the flexibility of the back-end.. Gnome is a classic example , if you install gnome then to hell with you if you don't want Nautilus. Choice is being lost.. The arguments about Aurora / OSS / ALSA are the same, people are trying to restrict choice. I can't stand Aurora (personally) but I can quite happily accept that it is probably useful for some people out there. I fully accept that the 'beginner' install needs to make most of the choices for the end user, and that the expert install needs to allow people to thrash the hell out of their machine - but maybe it's time for an 'intermediate' install. Linux has taken on the world because it offered choices... Let's not kill Mandrake because we fail to continue offering choices. Just my 0.02 Euro Sorry for quoting in full, but couldn't find anywhere to snip. I think you make useful points, but you're sounding the alarm too early. Go through your examples... GNOME, well, the GNOME team have taken a design decision that they consider Nautilus so central to the functioning of their desktop environment that it ought to be there. The line between essential core components and stuff that's optional and can be replaced with something else must be drawn somewhere; GNOME draw it behind Nautilus. Nautilus to GNOME developers isn't exactly a file manager, it's a core component of how GNOME deals with some things (file management, desktop). If you want to use GNOME, you're probably lumbered with installing it. But this doesn't exactly restrict choice; GNOME and KDE are your desktop / WM choices for large, bells-and-whistles imbued, monolithic desktop environments. Don't like GNOME, because of Nautilus or for whatever other reason? You still have choice. Use KDE, or - which would probably be more suited to your adherence to the small, interchangeable, directed parts philosophy - a smaller WM like Enlightenment, FluxBox or whatever. OSS / Alsa - no. Mandrake provides a full set of *both* ALSA and OSS drivers; everyone has the choice to use either, and I believe someone's working on coding the option to switch into HardDrake. The arguments are merely over which type of driver should be selected by default by DrakX for which type of card. Aurora, well, this is admittedly a limited example of removing choice, but again there's a line to be drawn here. Mandrake *could* include every tool they've ever used for any distro-specific part of using Linux - both versions of rpmdrake, every configuration tool, every bootup idea, etc etc, and end up with a huge, unwieldy, hard to maintain Mandrake part of the distribution. This clearly isn't a good solution. So there has to be a line drawn beyond which old stuff is thrown out. You might not agree with where it's being drawn, which is fine, but this is different from your concept of Mandrake abandoning the (good) Linux design philosophy and going to the (bad) Windows one. Very good and interesting post, though. Oh, please fix your reply-to header; it should point at [EMAIL PROTECTED] when posting to this list, I nearly just posted this to you and
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
Am Freitag, 16. August 2002, 11:10:53 Uhr MET, schrieb Adam Williamson: GNOME, well, the GNOME team have taken a design decision that they consider Nautilus so central to the functioning of their desktop environment that it ought to be there. The line between essential core components and stuff that's optional and can be replaced with something else must be drawn somewhere; GNOME draw it behind Nautilus. Nautilus to GNOME developers isn't exactly a file manager, it's a core component of how GNOME deals with some things (file management, desktop). If you want to use GNOME, you're probably lumbered with installing it. Hi, this is a bad example, because on my desktop rox has replaced nautilus. I can work well with it, there are only few features missing from the default GNOME installation. So you do have a choice. -- Götz Waschk master of computer science University of Rostock http://wwwtec.informatik.uni-rostock.de/~waschk/waschk.asc for PGP key -- Logout Fascism! --
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Fri, 2002-08-16 at 09:17, Michel Fodje wrote: should feel natural. It doesn't mean that it should loose functionality, Does it involve good spelling? G Sorry, cheap shot I know. But this one *really* gets on my nerves. Lose and Loose are two different words in English. Lose is a verb meaning mislay or (in the above usage) get rid of. Loose is either an adjective, the opposite of tight, or (less commonly) a verb meaning set free or discharge (you can loose a horse that's been penned up, though more common usage here would be turn loose, or loose a shot from a gun). Some spelling mistakes are harmless, but this really isn't; both spellings ought to be usable as verbs, but this increasingly widespread incorrect usage of loose to mean lose is threatening that. Sorry. Rant over. But i'd appreciate it if doc writers looked out for this one in their docs - your spellchecker won't pick it up. :) (Interestingly, my spellchecker doesn't appear to pick up the word spellcheck or the word spellchecker. Crazy. It's happy with spell checker, though. That's what it calls itself. Hmm. I think i'm going to go take a shower.) -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
One of the biggest problems hitting the Linux world is the failure of people to understand the different approach taken by Unix systems to solving problems. Aye, and different approaches are very good. The arguments about Aurora / OSS / ALSA are the same, people are trying to restrict choice. I can't stand Aurora (personally) but I can quite happily accept that it is probably useful for some people out there. I fully accept that the 'beginner' install needs to make most of the choices for the end user, and that the expert install needs to allow people to thrash the hell out of their machine - but maybe it's time for an 'intermediate' install. From my perspective (and only mine, mind you), it's a matter of what works, and what doesn't.. Sure, I love being able to tweak my settings (who doesn't), but I don't like having to go through everywhere to do so. As a side note, the recent problems I'd been having appear to be with an old driver (OSS), which I'd never seen give me any problem until recently. Why the sudden change? I don't know. I just know that at setup it did NOT work, and it was quite annoying. As far as the rest, sound choices and all. Perhaps, adding something to the sound card section in harddrake: What sound driver do you wish to use? (if driver is available to card, then list drivers and a minor text blob). This way, EVERYONE can be happy, and use their drivers rather easily. Personally, I'm still boggled as to WHY oss works perfectly with artsd and Alsa doesn't, but hell, as long as it works, then all's well in that matter. I agree that the install should choose the best choice (as long as the install is regular/newbie, and not advanced), but sometimes, the best choice doesn't exactly work (again, take my case for example.. Somehow, the drivers were shot). Just my 0.02 however
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
I'd be a lot happier with just 'X windows' and pick whatever KDE apps you want, and whatever Gnome apps you want. Rather than at the moment having to install both KDE and Gnome and then choose a single environment rather than mix and match the ones that you want. Ack, that'd be a bad bad bad thing. Then who's to say what's the default? Not to mention the fact that it'd be a big ol mess to figure out. The Windows approach is clearly different, it says there shall be only one way, and you will use it. Again despite my distaste for M$, I don't see any truth in this statement -- could you provide some evidence to support this? There shall be only 1 window manager (ours) and you shall use it. There shall be only 1 operating system (ours) and you shall use it. Walk into a school, do you see Linux servers running? For the most part no (though there ARE a few exceptions). Children are taught at an early age to use Micro$oft apps. Look at the application database being built for Micro$oft apps, vs Linux apps. Look at the fact that MOST drivers are built for Micro$oft OS'es first, Linux (if we're lucky) second. Just my thoughts, as usual.
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On 16 Aug 2002 12:12:41 +0200 Michel Fodje [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2002-08-16 at 10:47, Chris Higgins wrote: Mandrake Linux is what I use on my desktop, I put redhat or debian on servers. I'm considering dropping Mandrake for my desktop - and let me take a second to explain why. Unix style operating systems are based on a very different OS architecture to Windows style systems. This is seen clearly in the component model for applications. Loads of little applications that do a specific job well. Loads of lightweight processes that can communicate with each other to deliver an overall solution. I agree that the underlying systems are very different but the overall solution is what we are concerned about. A component model does not mean that we should have two programs, one for receiving mail and one for sending mail, or separate a word processor in to a text editor, and all what not, to get the same thing done. People expect all word processors to work in a similar manner. I agree completely . There is very little room for innovation here. I disagree (gently) The 'power' of the Unix approach is that you are not forced to take any single path to solve your problem, you choose the path that means most to you - the one that best fits your needs. How is this different from choosing to use KDE rather than GNOME or a text console? Or Choosing to use Mozilla instead of IE or Eudora instead of Outlook under windows? It's not, but you highlight my point in your reponse KDE rather than GNOME... Why pick one or the other ? Why have to make that choice ? I'd be a lot happier with just 'X windows' and pick whatever KDE apps you want, and whatever Gnome apps you want. Rather than at the moment having to install both KDE and Gnome and then choose a single environment rather than mix and match the ones that you want. The Windows approach is clearly different, it says there shall be only one way, and you will use it. Again despite my distaste for M$, I don't see any truth in this statement -- could you provide some evidence to support this? Microsoft are designing / developing and pushing a single environment for end users. This is typified by the recent marketing push for the Windows 'Experience'. They don't want anything other than their own software on their operating system. They want everything then to look / act and feel exactly the same way. I'm not saying that this is wrong, just different to the traditional Unix way - where choice is a major component (with all the issues that brings) The windows approach makes it easier for beginners to get a handle on - simply because they have no choice, and no-one else has any choice in how things are done.. So beginners and experts alike have to do things the same way. I think you, as well as many others are incorrectly comparing windows (The OS) with a Linux distribution which is more than just an OS. We're talking about new users here, the distinction is too subtle to be understood. I've been in computing for over 20 years, I know that a linux distribution is vastly more than just an operating system. However the distributions are being marketed and promoted as just that - a replacement operating system for your computer. Think of a barebones Linux OS and you may realize that there not as much choice as you think. The problem is, there is no choice available for beginners in Linux (OS) and that is what Mandrake is trying to create IMHO. There is loads of choice with a bare-bones linux os... I pick my kernel version , BSD or SysV init scripts, I pick my shell (tcsh/csh/bash/sh/ksh...), I choose a filesystem layout that fits my needs... I choose my servers - email - sendmail / postfix / exim / etc... The recent push of Linux to the Desktop taken the windows approach, and we're trying to build a huge single monolith of an operating system without all the flexibility of the back-end.. Again confusing the OS with the distribution Doesn't invalidate the point though :-) Gnome is a classic example , if you install gnome then to hell with you if you don't want Nautilus. Choice is being lost.. Gnome is a desktop environment, if you don't want a DE don't install GNOME or KDE or XFE. just install a window manager and run what ever apps you want. If you think you should be able to disable the file manager in a DE just file a bug report with that project. I don't ... I just have a window manager running on X. I can't stand Aurora (personally) but I can quite happily accept that it is probably useful for some people out there. I can't stand it either but I don't want to see [ok] messages unless I have to. The only use for those messages is for feedback, which can be replaced like mandrake did already with bootsplash. However I think there is more room for improvement there. It's not a matter of choice. It is a matter of
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On 16 Aug 2002 11:10:53 +0100 Adam Williamson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One huge snip later - which is fine, but this is different from your concept of Mandrake abandoning the (good) Linux design philosophy and going to the(bad) Windows one. You've picked my up wrong on this point, and re-reading my mail I see why - my fault. I'm not for a second suggesting that 'Mandrake' are abandoning the Unix design philosophy... apologies to any Mandrake ppl who picked me up that way. I do however see a lot more moves recently by people putting together packages who are restricting choices because they believe that a single choice is the best one for all. People who are fighting to copy Windows because that's what users want and expect. I like the idea of the new rpmdrake breaking the tasks out into clearly distinct functions, I hate the idea of having to get to it via a desktop environment menu system (given that my window manager has it's own hand carved menus :-( More of the packages are making assumptions about my environment that are wrong, the assumptions apply to the 'default mandrake install' and work will for beginners - but they break on my highly tuned system. People assume that if I want to run one package that I also have a whole lot more installed.. Even if those additional packages are only needed for a tiny portion of the functionality provided in the first package. Very good and interesting post, though. Oh, please fix your reply-to header; it should point at [EMAIL PROTECTED] when posting to this list, I nearly just posted this to you and thus broke the list's flow. (/me suddenly realises he's never checked he follows this rule, and madly hopes that he's practicing what he preaches...) Fixed ( I hope :-) -- adamw -- Chris Higgins Horizon e: chris.higgins at hts.horizon.ie tel: +353-1-6204900 fax: +353-1-6204901
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Fri, 2002-08-16 at 11:28, Chris Higgins wrote: I'd be a lot happier with just 'X windows' and pick whatever KDE apps you want, and whatever Gnome apps you want. Rather than at the moment having to install both KDE and Gnome and then choose a single environment rather than mix and match the ones that you want. Um? This makes no sense. KDE and GNOME aren't just collections of apps. You can run most GNOME apps quite happily under KDE, vice versa, and run apps from either on any other WM, so long as you have the necessary libraries and stuff installed. To get the benefits of KDE or GNOME *as desktop environments*, though, you have to run the whole bundle. The apps don't define the environments. (btw, your reply-to is broken again.) -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Fri Aug 16 10:59 +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: (Interestingly, my spellchecker doesn't appear to pick up the word spellcheck or the word spellchecker. Crazy. It's happy with spell checker, though. That's what it calls itself. Hmm. I think i'm going to go take a shower.) Spellcheckers often have problems with agglutinative words... almost makes me wonder how a German spellchecker would work... ;o) -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Was it something I said? And the stars look down. Linux 2.4.18-21mdk 1:00pm up 2 days, 13:04, 7 users, load average: 0.25, 0.17, 0.13
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Thu, 2002-08-15 at 05:11, Leon Brooks wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 03:01, Gary Greene wrote: Personally, I liked it much more than the new bootsplash system. Sure it had some issues (specifically when harddrake and kudzu would find changes in the hardware installed) but over all I found it to be more asthetically pleasing than a console window in a box-window. Oh, well, perhaps we can make the bootsplash console window a bit smarter, so it tags left-hand text with service icons and the [ OK ] etc with tick/cross/question icons. Dunno about everyone else, I prefer soemthing that works first, is pretty second. Ooh! If we're going for pretty, I *like* that idea. A small icon and optionally the service name in some kind of pretty font on the left, cartoony tick / cross on the right. Personally i'd turn it off straight away, but I can see it'd look cool for a reviewer / newbie on a first boot at least... -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
--- Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 06:47, Igor Izyumin wrote: This is not windows, you don't reboot every 15 minutes, so I don't think it's important how it looks. True story: my wife saw the very screen in question last week (I added hardware to her box), and startled me by asking `what's that?' - she had *never* seen her machine rebooting before! Another true story: our new modem gets lost by the computer every now and then and you have to reboot, I told my mom this, and she asked How do you do that? She had forgotten :o) __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Tue, 2002-08-13 at 18:02, Jakub Pas wrote: What's happened to Aurora. I cant' remember it was included in MDK 8.2 but anyway I can't find it in 9.0. It was quite niece... You are a sick, twisted individual. Seek psychiatric help immediately. It's gone in 9.x (and the crowd roars approval). -- Brad Felmey
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Tuesday 13 August 2002 10:22 pm, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Tue Aug 13 19:02 -0400, Jakub Pas wrote: What's happened to Aurora. I cant' remember it was included in MDK 8.2 but anyway I can't find it in 9.0. It was quite niece... You're the only one, then. Aurora annoyed me to no end when I was using 8.x. I agree. The first thing I did when I booted into 8.2 was rpm -e Aurora. Not to mention that it didn't work or crashed on many systems. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Wednesday 14 August 2002 17:01, Igor Izyumin wrote: On Tuesday 13 August 2002 10:22 pm, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Tue Aug 13 19:02 -0400, Jakub Pas wrote: What's happened to Aurora. I cant' remember it was included in MDK 8.2 but anyway I can't find it in 9.0. It was quite niece... You're the only one, then. Aurora annoyed me to no end when I was using 8.x. I agree. The first thing I did when I booted into 8.2 was rpm -e Aurora. Not to mention that it didn't work or crashed on many systems. Aurora wasn't in 8.2 IIRC
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Tuesday 13 August 2002 11:22 pm, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Tue Aug 13 19:02 -0400, Jakub Pas wrote: What's happened to Aurora. I cant' remember it was included in MDK 8.2 but anyway I can't find it in 9.0. It was quite niece... You're the only one, then. Aurora annoyed me to no end when I was using 8.x. ;o) Personally, I liked it much more than the new bootsplash system. Sure it had some issues (specifically when harddrake and kudzu would find changes in the hardware installed) but over all I found it to be more asthetically pleasing than a console window in a box-window. -- Gary Sent from seele.gvsu.edu 2:57pm up 9:52, 2 users, load average: 2.02, 1.45, 0.92 = Founder GVLUG. Chief Systems Architect, S4, Inc. - OS Department. -=http://s4llc.tabris.net/linux/=- Project Lead for the Sentinel Linux OS Project (KOMODO) Chairman and Project Lead of the E-media Committee of AltReal. PHONE : 331-0542 EMAIL : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] --changing the code of the Virtual Human Brain FS Driver... Mounting /dev/brain0 is still causing problems... Here's the error: #mounting local filesystems[ OK ] #Virtual Human Brain Driver v0.0.5 (EXPERIMENTAL) R/W fs module #Virtual Nerve Node Driver v0.4.1 (EXPERIMENTAL) R/W FS module #Insmod Adaptive Technology Device module..[ OK ] #Writing Sync state to Journalled VHBFS[ OK ] Kernel Sys Oops.. Flushing registers.. Back-trace follows.. =
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
What's happened to Aurora. I cant' remember it was included in MDK 8.2 but anyway I can't find it in 9.0. It was quite niece... You are a sick, twisted individual. Seek psychiatric help immediately. It's gone in 9.x (and the crowd roars approval). Stressing job? Problems wih girlfirend? You are not so polite. I think help may be more ussefull for you then me... Best Regards Jakub
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Wednesday 14 August 2002 16:00, Brad Felmey wrote: On Wed, 2002-08-14 at 11:01, Jakub Pas wrote: What's happened to Aurora. I cant' remember it was included in MDK 8.2 but anyway I can't find it in 9.0. It was quite niece... You are a sick, twisted individual. Seek psychiatric help immediately. It's gone in 9.x (and the crowd roars approval). Stressing job? Problems wih girlfirend? You are not so polite. I think help may be more ussefull for you then me... Text is such a limiting medium at times. It cannot carry inflection, for instance. In this case, I guess I could have followed the first sentence with the obligatory 'g' so you'd know I was making a joke, not being an ass. :) Sorry then - let's finish this stupid disscussion anyway... Anyway I liked Aurora ;-) Kuba
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Wed, 2002-08-14 at 11:01, Jakub Pas wrote: What's happened to Aurora. I cant' remember it was included in MDK 8.2 but anyway I can't find it in 9.0. It was quite niece... You are a sick, twisted individual. Seek psychiatric help immediately. It's gone in 9.x (and the crowd roars approval). Stressing job? Problems wih girlfirend? You are not so polite. I think help may be more ussefull for you then me... Text is such a limiting medium at times. It cannot carry inflection, for instance. In this case, I guess I could have followed the first sentence with the obligatory 'g' so you'd know I was making a joke, not being an ass. :) -- Brad Felmey
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Wednesday 14 August 2002 02:01 pm, Gary Greene wrote: Personally, I liked it much more than the new bootsplash system. Sure it had some issues (specifically when harddrake and kudzu would find changes in the hardware installed) but over all I found it to be more asthetically pleasing than a console window in a box-window. The console-in-a-box window is fine. This is not windows, you don't reboot every 15 minutes, so I don't think it's important how it looks. It also causes much fewer problems than Aurora does: fsck, kudzu, and other unforseen problems don't cause it to crash. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Wednesday 14 August 2002 06:47 pm, Igor Izyumin wrote: On Wednesday 14 August 2002 02:01 pm, Gary Greene wrote: Personally, I liked it much more than the new bootsplash system. Sure it had some issues (specifically when harddrake and kudzu would find changes in the hardware installed) but over all I found it to be more asthetically pleasing than a console window in a box-window. The console-in-a-box window is fine. This is not windows, you don't reboot every 15 minutes, so I don't think it's important how it looks. It also causes much fewer problems than Aurora does: fsck, kudzu, and other unforseen problems don't cause it to crash. I very much disagree with that. The one thing that Aurora did well was obfuscating the start scripts from the user. MS Windows splash screen is simple for a reason: the common joe user doesn't care that a certain subsystem is loading or not. all they care is that it works. If fsck, kudzu, and harddrake don't know how to behave with the it, find a workaround for them. And saying that we shouldn't care about the startup's appearance, then we've religated Linux only to the technological geeks. We should always make sure that the first thing that they see will inspire confidence that this is a polished and professional product. -- Gary Sent from seele.gvsu.edu 8:33pm up 15:29, 3 users, load average: 0.59, 0.47, 0.43 = Founder GVLUG. Chief Systems Architect, S4, Inc. - OS Department. -=http://s4llc.tabris.net/linux/=- Project Lead for the Sentinel Linux OS Project (KOMODO) Chairman and Project Lead of the E-media Committee of AltReal. PHONE : 331-0542 EMAIL : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] --changing the code of the Virtual Human Brain FS Driver... Mounting /dev/brain0 is still causing problems... Here's the error: #mounting local filesystems[ OK ] #Virtual Human Brain Driver v0.0.5 (EXPERIMENTAL) R/W fs module #Virtual Nerve Node Driver v0.4.1 (EXPERIMENTAL) R/W FS module #Insmod Adaptive Technology Device module..[ OK ] #Writing Sync state to Journalled VHBFS[ OK ] Kernel Sys Oops.. Flushing registers.. Back-trace follows.. =
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
Gary Greene said: I very much disagree with that. The one thing that Aurora did well was obfuscating the start scripts from the user. MS Windows splash screen is simple for a reason: the common joe user doesn't care that a certain subsystem is loading or not. all they care is that it works. If fsck, kudzu, and harddrake don't know how to behave with the it, find a workaround for them. And saying that we shouldn't care about the startup's appearance, then we've religated Linux only to the technological geeks. We should always make sure that the first thing that they see will inspire confidence that this is a polished and professional product. I dont think that those messages make linux unprofessional or difficult for newbies. They simply have to wait 10 sec for the GDM login screen (or even autologin) and then login in their KDE and open StarOffice XMMS and Mozilla. Remember: a) Build a system that any idiot can use and they will make a better idiot. b) Build a system that any idiot can use and only idiots will use it. Just a joke ;-) For the complete newbies i think we should make a new Mandrake distribution: one CD, no compilers and development packages, no emacs ;-), pre-configured programs and only one package for a task.
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Wednesday 14 August 2002 07:43 pm, Gary Greene wrote: I very much disagree with that. The one thing that Aurora did well was obfuscating the start scripts from the user. Trying to hide the system internals is dumb. Besides, Mandrake already boots in quiet mode. You don't see almost any messages. Aurora is far more cluttered and doesn't look as clean. MS Windows splash screen is simple for a reason: the common joe user doesn't care that a certain subsystem is loading or not. all they care is that it works. Windows doesn't try to hide scandisk or error messages, most of the time. Aurora does. The quiet-mode bootup outputs about as much as Windows. Besides, aren't we trying to make a better system than windows? If fsck, kudzu, and harddrake don't know how to behave with the it, find a workaround for them. There is a workaround. Don't use aurora. And saying that we shouldn't care about the startup's appearance, then we've religated Linux only to the technological geeks. We should, but making it look nice doesn't mean making it as dumb as possible. Most people using Mandrake are usually familiar with their computers, and don't mind seeing bootup messages. Showing the user what service is starting up is necessary, because it shows where slowdowns are and tells them the system didn't crash. We should always make sure that the first thing that they see will inspire confidence that this is a polished and professional product. Having a clean _and_ informative bootup screen is a part of that. Having a dumbed-down boot screen only shows that the developers didn't want to bother with making it look nice, and chose to turn off the messages anyway. -- -- Igor
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 06:47, Igor Izyumin wrote: This is not windows, you don't reboot every 15 minutes, so I don't think it's important how it looks. True story: my wife saw the very screen in question last week (I added hardware to her box), and startled me by asking `what's that?' - she had *never* seen her machine rebooting before! Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 03:01, Gary Greene wrote: Personally, I liked it much more than the new bootsplash system. Sure it had some issues (specifically when harddrake and kudzu would find changes in the hardware installed) but over all I found it to be more asthetically pleasing than a console window in a box-window. Oh, well, perhaps we can make the bootsplash console window a bit smarter, so it tags left-hand text with service icons and the [ OK ] etc with tick/cross/question icons. Dunno about everyone else, I prefer soemthing that works first, is pretty second. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Aurora + Mandrake 9.0
On Tue Aug 13 19:02 -0400, Jakub Pas wrote: What's happened to Aurora. I cant' remember it was included in MDK 8.2 but anyway I can't find it in 9.0. It was quite niece... You're the only one, then. Aurora annoyed me to no end when I was using 8.x. ;o) -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Was it something I said? And the stars look down. Linux 2.4.18-21mdk 11:15pm up 6 min, 2 users, load average: 0.10, 0.46, 0.26
