Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > To GC: I can really understand you well! I'm also fed up with this quoting > style (cf. Newbie mailing list, 1-2 weeks ago, thread: Text goes on top) > (actually, David is the wrong person to barf at. He's doing very fine, at > least compared to many others here). I don't quite understand why people > quote all the text, it's such a nuissance. Again, I don't yell after one sole person. I just took the decision to add the reminder at the end of all my replies. And he was the first. His very error was to write an interesting enough message, thus I answered it.. :-). -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
On Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 04:26:48PM -0700, Anton Graham wrote: > Submitted 26-Jul-00 by David Walluck: > > But as I understand Mutt is no better at this. > > Mutt allows you to use any editor you wish, but defaults to vi. No, it doesn't default to vi IIRC. It conforms to the general standard, which says, that $EDITOR should be used, or if not set, then $VISUAL, or if not set vi. So, okay, you're half way correct. > Personally I use Jed as my editor for composing emails. I use joe. Alexander Skwar -- Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com Sichere Mail? Mail an [EMAIL PROTECTED] fuer GnuPG Keys ICQ:7328191
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
On Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 07:17:19PM -0400, David Walluck wrote: > I guess you have never used pico :) You should just to see that it has 12 > commands. That is *it*. But as I understand Mutt is no better at this. But > you will never trully understand how hard it is with pico until you've > tried it. :) What's hard? To go to the bottom of a message with pico? If that's so, than you should/might really consider switching editors. I'm using jpico from joe. That's an easy editor and does all I need. Give it a try! To GC: I can really understand you well! I'm also fed up with this quoting style (cf. Newbie mailing list, 1-2 weeks ago, thread: Text goes on top) (actually, David is the wrong person to barf at. He's doing very fine, at least compared to many others here). I don't quite understand why people quote all the text, it's such a nuissance. But if you have a look at the default settings of many MUAs, and where they put the cursor or mark up the reply message, this screwed up quoting style is no wonder. Most notorious example is of course the always broken Outlook Express. And then people say, that this is the best. Ha. Alexander Skwar -- Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com Sichere Mail? Mail an [EMAIL PROTECTED] fuer GnuPG Keys ICQ:7328191
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
Submitted 26-Jul-00 by David Walluck: > But as I understand Mutt is no better at this. Mutt allows you to use any editor you wish, but defaults to vi. Personally I use Jed as my editor for composing emails. -- _ _|_|_ ( ) *Anton Graham /v\ / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> /( )X (m_m) GPG ID: 18F78541 Penguin Powered!
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
On 27 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Also, if you want to go at the very bottom your editor should provide a > shortcut. I guess you have never used pico :) You should just to see that it has 12 commands. That is *it*. But as I understand Mutt is no better at this. But you will never trully understand how hard it is with pico until you've tried it. :) -- Sincerely, David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On 26 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > > "Thomas M. Beaudry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > My sentiments exactly. Back when I started, correct netiquette was to put your > > > reply at the top so people didn't have to scroll down looking for it. > > > > Complete nonsense! If you want to not quote, please DON'T include the > > original message in your reply!! > > > > Please re read any netiquette on the art (and useability!) of "quoting" -> > > it means inserting your comments all along the original message. Think of > > it as a conversation betweem people. > > Yes, this is what I said I attempt to do. I post *many* messages to this > list and you can see that I do that. But, when there is no direct > reference to what is said, the message normally goes on top with the reply > to follow (at least pine does this!) Sometimes it is just a general > remark, not a conversation... Under gnus you can use "simple reply" (and not reply quoting) for that case so there is no problem.. Your mail client if it's powerful should provide this.. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > OK, first let me say that I think your posts amount to a flame. This is No I'm sorry this is not a flame. This is a fedup because many people are not respecting "commonly agreed netiquette", and that makes me waste time (and more important, miss important messages on this list). > the same as saying "Using pine is wrong" or "Using RedHat is wrong" > simply because you would prefer (maybe) if everyone used gnus and > Mandrake. This is fine but do not force your opinion onto everyone... no No. Reread my posts, there is nothing about that. I clearly specified that I talked about gnus as a *possible* solution to efficient emailing. Also note on my howto that I tell to pine and mutt users that this howto is probably not for them. Frankly, I don't care which email client people are using, and also which OS (except proprietary ones). What I want is to be efficient with my emailing because it costs me so much time. > one else has complained about the way e-mails are answered. Yes -- that's understandable from the non-Mandrake people; from Mandrake people, that's also the case because even internally many people are not respecting the email etiquette; also because many people here think it's useless to tell that, because everyone will say "I don't care he's an integrist, blah blah..". FYI Chmouel posted the email etiquette on our internal mailing lists about 1 month ago. > Now, to get to your response. This is a mailing list but not a > newsgroup. Sometimes it is helpful to leave a short message as a > reference to a user. I have no idea what this has to do with threaded > messages (Could you explain?), and I also know that in France they do If your email client is good enough you can find the parent article very easily. As an example, ^ with gnus. So if the person just want to post a general-purpose answer, it's useless to quote everything, the guy probably just read the parent message 1 minute ago. If it's not the case (an answer the day after the parent message for example), just push ^ in your gnus and it's okay. > not read bottom to top, so that if a reply is at the top of a message it > probably means that you don't have to scroll through the entire message. > (Even this is hard for me on a 28.8 modem!) Do you *really* think France is doing everything reverse that the rest of the world? Do you think France is located near to Australia, in the center of Africa, in the South Pole?? :-( > I hope all this is not an attempt to get me to switch to gnus. In fact, An attempt? I don't know. If you need a powerful mail client, it's here for you. Nothing more from me. That's "information". I don't force anyone. > I read the gnus HOWTO on your site a couple days ago, and though I'd > like to try it... emacs has far too many sortcuts for me to remember! > Then again vi is bad about that, too. If you wanted to post a GNU > emacs/gnus shortcut reference on your site I may thn give it a try. Oh, http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/html/personal-homepage/html/emacs-quick-reminder.html > and I do have to use emacs at work, so I don't hate it, I'm just having > a hard enough time remembering the commands as it is. Very strange.. Here in MandrakeSoft, 90% of the people use Emacs AFAIK. (Well, everyone except Francis in fact..) > Pine defaults to the top of a message when you hit "Reply", and I didn't > see an option to change this. But this is bad, too! I don't want to work > my way backwards through a message. Every client is. You then have to scroll down and insert stuff at the correct location. Also, your mail client should contain the shortcuts to ease the removal of parts. Also, if you want to go at the very bottom your editor should provide a shortcut. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > I hope all this is not an attempt to get me to switch to gnus. In fact, I > read the gnus HOWTO on your site a couple days ago, and though I'd like to > try it... emacs has far too many sortcuts for me to remember! Then again > vi is bad about that, too. If you wanted to post a GNU emacs/gnus shortcut > reference on your site I may thn give it a try. Oh, and I do have to use in the source of gnus you have : (chmou@cassini)[gnus/texi]-% head -2 refcard.tex % -*- latex -*- % Reference Card for (ding) Gnus: to be processed with LaTeX2e i don't know if it's included in the vanilla distribution (or the rpm). -- MandrakeSoft Inchttp://www.mandrakesoft.com San-Francisco, CA USA --Chmouel
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
On 26 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > "Thomas M. Beaudry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > My sentiments exactly. Back when I started, correct netiquette was to put your > > reply at the top so people didn't have to scroll down looking for it. > > Complete nonsense! If you want to not quote, please DON'T include the > original message in your reply!! > > Please re read any netiquette on the art (and useability!) of "quoting" -> > it means inserting your comments all along the original message. Think of > it as a conversation betweem people. Yes, this is what I said I attempt to do. I post *many* messages to this list and you can see that I do that. But, when there is no direct reference to what is said, the message normally goes on top with the reply to follow (at least pine does this!) Sometimes it is just a general remark, not a conversation... -- Sincerely, David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
On 26 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > No, if it's a general reply you should remove everything (the good > version) (because every good mailer as a thread option that enables the > look of the original message), or leave everything and reply at the bottom > (because when I want to read the original message, with your solution I > would have to first scroll down, read, then scroll up, read the answer; > opposite would save one scroll and would be far more logical in the sense > of presenting first the question, second the answer) OK, first let me say that I think your posts amount to a flame. This is the same as saying "Using pine is wrong" or "Using RedHat is wrong" simply because you would prefer (maybe) if everyone used gnus and Mandrake. This is fine but do not force your opinion onto everyone... no one else has complained about the way e-mails are answered. Now, to get to your response. This is a mailing list but not a newsgroup. Sometimes it is helpful to leave a short message as a reference to a user. I have no idea what this has to do with threaded messages (Could you explain?), and I also know that in France they do not read bottom to top, so that if a reply is at the top of a message it probably means that you don't have to scroll through the entire message. (Even this is hard for me on a 28.8 modem!) > Of course. That's what everyone should try to do; I certainly try to do > so, and warmly encourages people who find that time-consuming to switch to > Gnus news and mail reader and use the various available shortcuts (C-c > C-e ; C-c C-z ; C-c C-v) For some help to switch to gnus please consult my > mini howto: I hope all this is not an attempt to get me to switch to gnus. In fact, I read the gnus HOWTO on your site a couple days ago, and though I'd like to try it... emacs has far too many sortcuts for me to remember! Then again vi is bad about that, too. If you wanted to post a GNU emacs/gnus shortcut reference on your site I may thn give it a try. Oh, and I do have to use emacs at work, so I don't hate it, I'm just having a hard enough time remembering the commands as it is. Pine defaults to the top of a message when you hit "Reply", and I didn't see an option to change this. But this is bad, too! I don't want to work my way backwards through a message. > > > This is just how it is done, it's not like I got on the Internet yesterday > > :) If you are talking about the FAQ I appogize, but I believe the FAQ has > > the questions and responses in the correct order. > > What FAQ ? Since your original post was in reply to the Cooker FAQ thread (?), I thought that comment might have been about the FAQ... don't worry about it :) -- Sincerely, David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On 25 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > > David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > PS : please quote your answer the right way, e.g. put answers *after* > > questions.. > > Are you talking about where I put my reply? It normally comes after the > section I am talking about, but if I just hit "Reply" and it's a general > response it will go at the top, with the initial message at the > bottom so that the reader need not scroll through pages of useless > text just to see it. No, if it's a general reply you should remove everything (the good version) (because every good mailer as a thread option that enables the look of the original message), or leave everything and reply at the bottom (because when I want to read the original message, with your solution I would have to first scroll down, read, then scroll up, read the answer; opposite would save one scroll and would be far more logical in the sense of presenting first the question, second the answer) > And if you read any document on netiquette, it will tell you to trim the > message reply down to only the relavant sections you are replying to, in > order to save space, reading time, and above all, precious bandwidth. If Of course. That's what everyone should try to do; I certainly try to do so, and warmly encourages people who find that time-consuming to switch to Gnus news and mail reader and use the various available shortcuts (C-c C-e ; C-c C-z ; C-c C-v) For some help to switch to gnus please consult my mini howto: http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/html/howtos/howto-adopt-gnus.html (Please, pine/mutt/etc lovers, use quick and efficient arguments if you really feel this is the place for a mailreader flame) (my point is just to propose ONE tool to ease the efficiency and quality of your emails). > you were to go through my previous posts to this list, you would see that > I almost *always* do this, unless I'm feeling particularly lazy that day, Yes. It's no personal -- it's just me, being fed up with all the people doing that, so I took the decision to systematically include a reminder, as from today. > and in my defense, very few people on this list have done it as regularly > as I have, because it's easier to just ignore netiquette and leave the > whole reply in there. Yes, this is a very selfish attitude that saves 10 seconds for the author of the mail, and costs 200 x 30 seconds to the rest. > This is just how it is done, it's not like I got on the Internet yesterday > :) If you are talking about the FAQ I appogize, but I believe the FAQ has > the questions and responses in the correct order. What FAQ ? -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On 25 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > > PS : please quote your answer the right way, e.g. put answers *after* > > questions.. > > What? Your original message was: It's good for newbies, but should be extended to expert or developer sections... i.e RPM-HOWTO, how to make an ISO, how to mirror, how to keep up-to-date... a lot of stuff the cooker website has but in much more detail as it is a FAQ and FAQ's always have great explanations for the questions for some reason :) On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Alexander Skwar wrote: > On Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 06:02:56PM +0200, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > Hence, we (Geoffrey Lee, Guillaume Cottenceau) have decided on the idea of > > the "Cooker-FAQ" which will be available: > > Good idea! I like it. > > Alexander Skwar > This is not good because all the "Alexander Skwar wrote:" part is purely useless; we have to scroll down to remember the original message, then scroll up to see your answer. And we don't even know which part of the message you want to answer. Please read the emailing netiquette.. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
"Thomas M. Beaudry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > My sentiments exactly. Back when I started, correct netiquette was to put your > reply at the top so people didn't have to scroll down looking for it. Complete nonsense! If you want to not quote, please DON'T include the original message in your reply!! Please re read any netiquette on the art (and useability!) of "quoting" -> it means inserting your comments all along the original message. Think of it as a conversation betweem people. That is pure bullshit: > > On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, you wrote: > > On 25 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > > > > PS : please quote your answer the right way, e.g. put answers *after* > > > questions.. > > > > What? > > > > -- > > Sincerely, > > > > David Walluck > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
On 25 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > PS : please quote your answer the right way, e.g. put answers *after* > questions.. Are you talking about where I put my reply? It normally comes after the section I am talking about, but if I just hit "Reply" and it's a general response it will go at the top, with the initial message at the bottom so that the reader need not scroll through pages of useless text just to see it. And if you read any document on netiquette, it will tell you to trim the message reply down to only the relavant sections you are replying to, in order to save space, reading time, and above all, precious bandwidth. If you were to go through my previous posts to this list, you would see that I almost *always* do this, unless I'm feeling particularly lazy that day, and in my defense, very few people on this list have done it as regularly as I have, because it's easier to just ignore netiquette and leave the whole reply in there. This is just how it is done, it's not like I got on the Internet yesterday :) If you are talking about the FAQ I appogize, but I believe the FAQ has the questions and responses in the correct order.
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
As it was back then. Never email when you're half asleep. On Wed, 26 Jul 2000, Alexander Skwar wrote: > Don't know about back then, but nowadays you only quote as much as needed
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
On Wed, Jul 26, 2000 at 03:57:37AM -0400, Thomas M. Beaudry wrote: > My sentiments exactly. Back when I started, correct netiquette was to put your > reply at the top so people didn't have to scroll down looking for it. Don't know about back then, but nowadays you only quote as much as needed (ie. NO FULL QUOTES!), and put your quotes AFTER the text you quoted. Actually I have a hard time believing that it was ever different, since back then bandwidth was even more expensive than it is today! PS: Also do not post in HTML, it adds nothing and only makes the mails larger. Alexander Skwar -- Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com Sichere Mail? Mail an [EMAIL PROTECTED] fuer GnuPG Keys ICQ:7328191
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
My sentiments exactly. Back when I started, correct netiquette was to put your reply at the top so people didn't have to scroll down looking for it. On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, you wrote: > On 25 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > > PS : please quote your answer the right way, e.g. put answers *after* > > questions.. > > What? > > -- > Sincerely, > > David Walluck > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
On 25 Jul 2000, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > PS : please quote your answer the right way, e.g. put answers *after* > questions.. What? -- Sincerely, David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > It's good for newbies, but should be extended to expert or developer > sections... i.e RPM-HOWTO, how to make an ISO, how to mirror, how to keep > up-to-date... a lot of stuff the cooker website has but in much more > detail as it is a FAQ and FAQ's always have great explanations for the > questions for some reason :) Well, that's probably something that could be submitted by a Cooker folk! ;-) PS : please quote your answer the right way, e.g. put answers *after* questions.. > On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Alexander Skwar wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 06:02:56PM +0200, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > > Hence, we (Geoffrey Lee, Guillaume Cottenceau) have decided on the idea of > > > the "Cooker-FAQ" which will be available: > > > > Good idea! I like it. > > > > Alexander Skwar > > -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
It's good for newbies, but should be extended to expert or developer sections... i.e RPM-HOWTO, how to make an ISO, how to mirror, how to keep up-to-date... a lot of stuff the cooker website has but in much more detail as it is a FAQ and FAQ's always have great explanations for the questions for some reason :) On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Alexander Skwar wrote: > On Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 06:02:56PM +0200, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > > Hence, we (Geoffrey Lee, Guillaume Cottenceau) have decided on the idea of > > the "Cooker-FAQ" which will be available: > > Good idea! I like it. > > Alexander Skwar > -- Sincerely, David Walluck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: [Cooker] Introducing the cooker-faq
On Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 06:02:56PM +0200, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > Hence, we (Geoffrey Lee, Guillaume Cottenceau) have decided on the idea of > the "Cooker-FAQ" which will be available: Good idea! I like it. Alexander Skwar -- Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com Sichere Mail? Mail an [EMAIL PROTECTED] fuer GnuPG Keys ICQ:7328191
