Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Tue, 2003-03-11 at 04:05, James Sparenberg wrote: Actually they do follow it... very well, hence the K in the lower left korner (couldn't resist the k).. the menu... icons on the desktop... The we can do it better crowd is called NeXt... and we know what happened to them. Yeah, they effectively did a reverse takeover of Apple and designed one of the most acclaimed operating systems ever, OS X...=) -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Tue Mar 11 14:08 +, Adam Williamson wrote: Yeah, they effectively did a reverse takeover of Apple and designed one of the most acclaimed operating systems ever, OS X...=) And with one exception (the dock) the NeXT influence on OS X has been under the hood. Other than the dock, the UI is far closer to the traditional Mac OS than to NeXTStep. -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The food of love is Mandrake root. GPG Fingerprint: 354C 7A02 77C5 9EE7 8538 4E8D DCD9 B4B0 DC35 67CD Currently playing: Queensryche - Sacred Ground Linux 2.4.21-0.13mdk 10:50:00 up 15:42, 6 users, load average: 0.23, 0.38, 0.83
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 03:48, Brent Hasty a écrit : On Sunday 09 March 2003 07:00 pm, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: is there a way to set in KDE the mouse to select an object after hovering over it with the pointer for X duration? I never saw such an option, but I never looked for it so I can't say. Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Sunday 09 March 2003 07:41 pm, D F wrote: perfict, I will second this comment. -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On March 09, 2003 21:22, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Single/Double-click is an option that can be easily changed by the user, and once it's changed, urpmi, updates, even a full reinstall will not change that setting, unless you reformat the partitions. But in conclusion, what's really funny: people who complain about that option are the ones who *are* going to roll out their own CDs anyway ;-) In my mind, what's important is the ergonomics of the thing. You must admit, Jean-Michel, that your laptop situation is not the general case. In my field, we have people dropping like flies of repetitive strain disorders associated with using the mouse. If you can do it with a single click, that should be the default. If it's as easy to change the behaviour as you say, then changing TO double click FROM single click should not be an issue for anyone, should it? :-) - -- Dave Fluri PGP Public Key-ID 3F64B9AC -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+bAlvo1mPmT9kuawRAgogAJsFMYq2WmlBcP0UpHLpYhdnfWvLcQCfeB6p 45/0tTVe/zekgQ2hZmqZaYg= =yGE4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously. - Benjamin Franklin
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 03:44, Brent Hasty a écrit :
On Sunday 09 March 2003 06:44 pm, Jean-Michel Dault wrote:
I like these real tips like you and Jim are providing. I have a user setup on
my system who is a nobody I just use it to define the desktop (for each
diffrence in each new mdk release) I use this as a skeleton and copy it into
any new users directory then chown it to the new user, who can take it from
there.
Is there a skeleton profile somewhere in mandrake that can be edited
(particuarly for KDE) and if so whear is it found?
Better than a skeleton, here is the kdesktop-links that me and the
Sherbrooke University Users Group came up with for their deployment.
It's in attachment.
This creates default icons, a default theme, default language
preferences and other stuff for new users.
This was for 9.0 and probably needs to be redone, but it's a good
starting point.
You'll have to look in /usr/share/config for the default Mandrake files.
I don't suggest modifying them, since they'll affect all users on the
system, and will be overriden if you upgrade KDE.
Jean-Michel
#!/bin/sh
if [ ! -d $HOME/Desktop ]; then
mkdir -p $HOME/Desktop
fi
# Media
if [ ! -e ~/Desktop/.md5sumetcfstab ] || [ $(md5sum -c ~/Desktop/.md5sumetcfstab | awk '{print $2}') != OK ]; then
# CD-ROM
for i in $(grep cdrom /etc/fstab | grep -v ^# | awk '{print $1 $2 $3 $4}'); do
if [ $(echo $i | grep supermount) ] ; then
supermount=1
dev=$(echo $i | awk -F, '{print $1}' | sed -e 's/.*dev=//')
i=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/supermount.*//')
else supermount=0
i=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/adfs.*//;s/affs.*//;s/auto.*//;s/coherent.*//;s/cramfs.*//;s/efs.*//;s/ext.*//;s/ext2.*//;s/ext3.*//;s/hfs.*//;s/hpfs.*//;s/iso9660.*//;s/jfs.*//;s/minix.*//;s/msdos.*//;s/ncpfs.*//;s/ntfs.*//;s/qnx4.*//;s/reiserfs.*//;s/romfs.*//;s/sysv.*//;s/tmpfs.*//;s/udf.*//;s/ufs.*//;s/umsdos.*//;s/vfat.*//;s/xenix.*//;s/xfs.*//;s/xiafs.*//')
dev=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/\/mnt.*//')
fi
template=/usr/share/templates/.source/CDROM-Device.desktop
mountpoint=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/.*\/mnt/\/mnt/')
name=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/.*cdrom/cd-rom/' | tr '[a-z]' '[A-Z]')
output=$HOME/Desktop/Media/$name
if [ $supermount = 0 ] [ ! -e $HOME/Desktop/Media/.$name ]; then
if [ ! -d $HOME/Desktop/Media/ ]; then
mkdir -p $HOME/Desktop/Media/
cp /usr/share/mdk/kde/removable_media.directory $HOME/Desktop/Media/.directory
fi
perl -pi -e s|MountPoint=|MountPoint=$mountpoint|;s|Dev=|Dev=$dev|;s|Icon=.*|Icon=cd.png| $template $output
touch $HOME/Desktop/.$name
elif [ $supermount = 1 ] [ ! -e $HOME/Desktop/Media/.$name ]; then
if [ ! -d $HOME/Desktop/Media/ ]; then
mkdir -p $HOME/Desktop/Media/
cp /usr/share/mdk/kde/removable_media.directory $HOME/Desktop/Media/.directory
fi
perl -pi -e s|^[F;M;R;T;U].*\n||;s|Dev=\n|Dev=$dev\nType=Link\nURL=$mountpoint\n|;s|Icon=.*\n|Icon=cd.png\n| $template $output
touch $HOME/Desktop/Media/.$name
fi
done
# Floppy
for i in $(grep floppy /etc/fstab | grep -v ^# | awk '{print $1 $2 $3 $4}'); do
if [ $(echo $i | grep supermount) ] ; then
supermount=1
dev=$(echo $i | awk -F, '{print $1}' | sed -e 's/.*dev=//')
i=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/supermount.*//')
else supermount=0
i=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/adfs.*//;s/affs.*//;s/auto.*//;s/coherent.*//;s/cramfs.*//;s/efs.*//;s/ext.*//;s/ext2.*//;s/ext3.*//;s/hfs.*//;s/hpfs.*//;s/iso9660.*//;s/jfs.*//;s/minix.*//;s/msdos.*//;s/ncpfs.*//;s/ntfs.*//;s/qnx4.*//;s/reiserfs.*//;s/romfs.*//;s/sysv.*//;s/tmpfs.*//;s/udf.*//;s/ufs.*//;s/umsdos.*//;s/vfat.*//;s/xenix.*//;s/xfs.*//;s/xiafs.*//')
dev=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/\/mnt.*//')
fi
template=/usr/share/templates/.source/Floppy.desktop
mountpoint=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/.*\/mnt/\/mnt/')
name=$(echo $i | sed -e 's/.*floppy/Floppy/')
output=$HOME/Desktop/Media/$name
if [ $supermount = 0 ] [ ! -e $HOME/Desktop/Media/.$name ]; then
if [ ! -d $HOME/Desktop/Media/ ]; then
mkdir -p $HOME/Desktop/Media/
cp /usr/share/mdk/kde/removable_media.directory $HOME/Desktop/Media/.directory
fi
perl -pi -e s|MountPoint=|MountPoint=$mountpoint|;s|Dev=|Dev=$dev|;s|Icon=.*|Icon=3floppy_unmount.png| $template $output
touch $HOME/Desktop/Media/.$name
elif [ $supermount = 1 ] [ ! -e $HOME/Desktop/Media/.$name ]; then
if [ ! -d $HOME/Desktop/Media/ ]; then
mkdir -p $HOME/Desktop/Media/
cp /usr/share/mdk/kde/removable_media.directory $HOME/Desktop/Media/.directory
fi
perl -pi -e s|^[F;M;R;T;U].*\n||;s|Dev=\n|Type=Link\nURL=$mountpoint\n|;s|Icon=.*\n|Icon=3floppy_unmount.png\n| $template $output
touch $HOME/Desktop/Media/.$name
fi
done
# Zip
for i in $(grep zip /etc/fstab | grep -v ^# | awk '{print $1 $2 $3 $4}'); do
if [ $(echo $i |
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 23:04, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le lun 10/03/2003 à 03:48, Brent Hasty a écrit : On Sunday 09 March 2003 07:00 pm, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: is there a way to set in KDE the mouse to select an object after hovering over it with the pointer for X duration? I never saw such an option, but I never looked for it so I can't say. Jean-Michel If you go into kcontrol (the kde control panel) and chose peripherals -- mouse under the General tab and the Icons section chose to single click to open then the second checkbox is Automatically select Icons. Check this one and then set the delay to what you want. James
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
You're generalising as much as the rest. I've had Mandrake on 3 or 4 laptops with touchpads in so many years, and never had a problem with single-click. Shaky hands or sweaty fingers? ;-) Seems like a storm in a teacup, and the best solution would be someone's suggestion to ask at first use of KDE, or failing that make sure it is easy to find where to change the setting (I doubt all schoolkids would agree on this either, so why bother putting the effort into modifying standard behaviour). But if there has to be a default, surely the Principle of Least Surprise that someone else quoted would be for 9.1 to do the same as the previous releases, e.g. single-click. Cheers, Bruno Prior Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Not the general case, but most laptops these days come with a touchpad and have the same issues. And the trend is for corporations to provide a laptop to each of their employees, so it's becoming more and more general.
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Windows can be changed to single-click very easily, as most of our Windows users at work have done. What makes you so sure that 100% of people on Windows use double-click? Messing with your settings is a major activity for most computer users at work. Completely agree with your second point, though. Cheers, Bruno Todd Lyons wrote: But 95% of the desktop market *IS* running windows. It's one thing to train 40% of the people who use Linux. It's another thing to train 95% of the people who use computers. Think about it. I agree that single click is better once you get used to it, but I still prefer doubleclick because I like to be able to select with single click without launching. I guess at this point, it's more I'm used to this, you should learn to be like me than anything else. Not wrong, just different. Blue skies... Todd
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 06:30, Bruno Prior a écrit : You're generalising as much as the rest. I've had Mandrake on 3 or 4 laptops with touchpads in so many years, and never had a problem with single-click. Shaky hands or sweaty fingers? ;-) Neither, just a very sensitive touchpad. Not the general case, but most laptops these days come with a touchpad and have the same issues. And the trend is for corporations to provide a laptop to each of their employees, so it's becoming more and more general. Oh, and another thing, Mandrake is used by some police, ambulance and fire departments, even one AirForce base, and they run ToughBooks with a touchscreen. Have you ever tried moving files from one directory to the other when as soon as you put your finger on the file, it launches an application? I'm sure you would laugh at first, be very shocked when the Lieutenant throws the laptop on the floor without you knowing it's made of magnesium alloy and doesn't break ;-) Then you would laugh again, because the Kernel panics (not the Linux Kernel of course, the *person* ;-) These ToughBooks are tested by dropping them 26 times from a height of 36 inches, on a drop surface that has a 2 inch thick plywood over a steel plate over concrete. You can also drop coffee or water on them, their test is a 15-minute drip test. Pretty impressive. Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Mon 10 Mar 2003 02:30, James Sparenberg posted as excerpted below: If you go into kcontrol (the kde control panel) and chose peripherals -- mouse under the General tab and the Icons section chose to single click to open then the second checkbox is Automatically select Icons. Check this one and then set the delay to what you want. Unfortunately, it seems that works sometimes, and sometimes not. Sometimes it selects when I hover over an item, sometimes I just sit there waiting for it.. Part of the time if the latter, I can go hover over something else and it works again, than come back and it works like it should have the first time. Other times I end up right clicking on it to select, and then hitting escape to close the popup, becaue it just doesn't autoselect as it should. Then there's the fact that when you DON'T want it to work that way, it does... An example is when editing the actions in klipper.. I haven't been able to figure out how to edit them w/o clicking on them (no keyboard only method that I've discovered), but if you click to edit, and then move the mouse out of the way, or to reposition the cursor, if you are not careful, it selects the next line and deactivates further editing, so you have to go back and click it again. The same thing happens in kcontrol, on occasion. The icons there like to select to fast, and here anyway, I'll be editing a page, and move the mouse to get the pointer out of the way, only to find myself staring at a changes aren't saved warning dialog, because it selected another config page and icon. For these reasons, altho I prefer single-click when hover-select works dependably, since it doesn't, I've had to set double-click. Unfortunately even that doesn't solve the entire problem, as it doesn't apply across the entire KDE desktop -- the klipper action edits being the most recent experience I've had with ignored click preference settings. That's one of two complaints I have about KDE at present. The other is here in kmail. I don't like glaring white backgrounds, so have my preferences set to light letters on dark backgrounds, as far as possible. Unfortunately, signed messages don't obey the prefs for background, so I get the glaring white. Furthermore, they DO seem to obey the text/forground color prefs, so I end up having to use sort of middling text colors, so I can at least SORT of see it on both default preference obeying dark backgrounds, and signed non-preference obeying glare-backgrounds. The latter is in fact one of the practical reasons I signed up for this list. I've been wanting to report it, but don't know whether going thru KDE or Mandrake is the appropriate method, and altho it's probably in a FAQ somewhere, I haven't found it. (Of course, I'm running cooker, and have been wishing to get more involved with it as well, but this is one of the trigger issues that actually got me off my butt to do it..) OTOH, KDE is FAR better for me (emphasis on the for me qualifier) because Gnome lacks even what I'd consider minimal config basics, such as the ability to change a single color of the interface using a color picker -- I find themes never fit me exactly anyway, particularly when I have to keep tweaking them because parts of the interface observe forground/text color prefs but ignore background prefs, with the kmail example above being a good one. With KDE, I can tweak the text color a bit so it can be seen on both light and dark backgrounds. With Gnome, I'd have to go find an entirely different theme -- either that or figure out how to edit the theme text files -- not nearly as easy as using a color picker and poorly documented. .. That's my reason for choosing KDE.. Gnome doesn't configure as easily and directly, and that's a requirement for me.. -- Duncan They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jean-Michel Dault wrote: If you're selling systems, you might want to setup a theme, or stuff like that as well. Here's an example of what you could do: In /usr/bin/kdesktop-links, add something like: --- SNIP --- cd $HOME/.kde/share/config [ -f kdeglobals ] || cat EOF kdeglobals [KDE] SingleClick=true colorScheme=mytheme.kcsrc [WM] activeBackground=32,113,32 [Icons] Theme=mytheme [DesktopIcons] Size=32 EOF --- SNIP --- That way, it will setup defaults the first time the user logins. Jean-Michel This kind of stuff needs to be package, IMHO with a GUI, and put on ProSuite or similar, so that corporates can also do this kind of thing. draksplash etc are nice, but how about a gui where you just choose your company logo (for KDM screen, screensaver etc), background (?dm backgrounds, bootsplash etc), select your template config files, and generate an RPM? We have an rpm we use for desktop machines, which on %post does a number of operations (add urpmi update source, add NFS mounts to fstab, installs bootsplash theme, and updates many config files). If a company then also had a urpmi repository (marked as update source), they would only need to update the rpm, and have the automagic updates (see urpmi evangelism thread) pull it in the next morning. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+bJbArJK6UGDSBKcRAnFkAJ9ogB9U6z/E9+8vzz1cEi4+0pdUpgCfRooG UUHEL9109qzXazbmArISZHM= =3KAN -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Bruno Prior wrote: Windows can be changed to single-click very easily, as most of our Windows users at work have done. What makes you so sure that 100% of people on Windows use double-click? Messing with your settings is a major activity for most computer users at work. 100% of our users here use double-click on windows, and the ones who have used linux asked for double-click. And even if only 80% of all windows users use double-click, 90% of 95% is a lot more than (say) 50% (KDE users who single-click) of 40% (KDE users) of 5%. Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+bJqvrJK6UGDSBKcRAktxAJ42dxTo/3CB/5MyXQS0rKAea4sungCfTcLJ HVp5f6Zfzx+xVPHS0ymwsyQ= =pYJC -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 09:44, Buchan Milne a écrit : If you're selling systems, you might want to setup a theme, or stuff like that as well. Here's an example of what you could do: In /usr/bin/kdesktop-links, add something like: That way, it will setup defaults the first time the user logins. This kind of stuff needs to be package, IMHO with a GUI, and put on ProSuite or similar, so that corporates can also do this kind of thing. draksplash etc are nice, but how about a gui where you just choose your company logo (for KDM screen, screensaver etc), background (?dm backgrounds, bootsplash etc), select your template config files, and generate an RPM? Yes, that's what I plan to do eventually, but there are certain things we need to modify first. - krozat, the screensaver, has hard-coded colors, which is not good if the company logo is not Mandrake blue. Same thing with the Gnome screensaver (Gdadou?), except that it's an XML file. - kdesktop_links is in kdebase, while it's really a script, and could be contained in mandrake_desk or similar package for easy replacement. Would you imagine recompiling kdebase just to add an icon on the desktop? ;-) And we have to find out what to do with upgrades, so that new packages will not overwrite the user's theme. We have an rpm we use for desktop machines, which on %post does a number of operations (add urpmi update source, add NFS mounts to fstab, installs bootsplash theme, and updates many config files). If a company then also had a urpmi repository (marked as update source), they would only need to update the rpm, and have the automagic updates (see urpmi evangelism thread) pull it in the next morning. The Sherbrooke University LUG does basically the same thing. We only have to find out a clean way to do it, and we'll submit it when it's ready. Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Sunday 09 March 2003 06:44 pm, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: I did go back for exactly the same reason jean-michel said. I've been using kde since version 1.1 and always set it back to double click eventually. Yes were is that stupid setting I've been looking for it. Iwant to set it to single click. I already have all my winders boxen set this also. I also set them like this by default for the systems I sell. It is way more usable to jsut have everything act like a web page. If you're selling systems, you might want to setup a theme, or stuff like that as well. Here's an example of what you could do: In /usr/bin/kdesktop-links, add something like: --- SNIP --- cd $HOME/.kde/share/config [ -f kdeglobals ] || cat EOF kdeglobals [KDE] SingleClick=true colorScheme=mytheme.kcsrc [WM] activeBackground=32,113,32 [Icons] Theme=mytheme [DesktopIcons] Size=32 EOF --- SNIP --- That way, it will setup defaults the first time the user logins. Jean-Michel Thanks for this. I hadn't thought about it but this would be great as a cron script also for those who like to um mess with things. Alot of university's like to use lockdown software and although it would not be quite the same it would defiantly make sure the setting were the same every hour for any user that used the system and since it would only take affect each time somebody logs in it would most like work as intended. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Monday 10 March 2003 05:44 am, Buchan Milne wrote: This kind of stuff needs to be package, IMHO with a GUI, and put on ProSuite or similar, so that corporates can also do this kind of thing. draksplash etc are nice, but how about a gui where you just choose your company logo (for KDM screen, screensaver etc), background (?dm backgrounds, bootsplash etc), select your template config files, and generate an RPM? Could you post some examples I'm sure I could hunt it all down but it would be apricaited. I like the branding idea. We have an rpm we use for desktop machines, which on %post does a number of operations (add urpmi update source, add NFS mounts to fstab, installs bootsplash theme, and updates many config files). If a company then also had a urpmi repository (marked as update source), they would only need to update the rpm, and have the automagic updates (see urpmi evangelism thread) pull it in the next morning. Regards, Buchan Thanks for the ideas. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Monday 10 March 2003 03:25 am, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: I'm sure you would laugh at first, be very shocked when the Lieutenant throws the laptop on the floor without you knowing it's made of magnesium alloy and doesn't break ;-) Then you would laugh again, because the Kernel panics (not the Linux Kernel of course, the *person* ;-) Lol this this is funny and it's colonel. These ToughBooks are tested by dropping them 26 times from a height of 36 inches, on a drop surface that has a 2 inch thick plywood over a steel plate over concrete. You can also drop coffee or water on them, their test is a 15-minute drip test. Pretty impressive. Jean-Michel -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Buchan Milne [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bruno Prior wrote: Windows can be changed to single-click very easily, as most of our Windows users at work have done. What makes you so sure that 100% of people on Windows use double-click? Messing with your settings is a major activity for most computer users at work. 100% of our users here use double-click on windows, and the ones who have used linux asked for double-click. Yes. I have to say that I've *never* seen any Windows user using single-click. -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Jean-Michel Dault wrote:
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 09:44, Buchan Milne a écrit :
Yes, that's what I plan to do eventually, but there are certain things
we need to modify first.
- krozat, the screensaver, has hard-coded colors, which is not good if
the company logo is not Mandrake blue. Same thing with the Gnome
screensaver (Gdadou?), except that it's an XML file.
Maybe rather choose a different screensaver, xscreensaver with flag?
This would mean though that we need to get at least one more KDE
screensaver in ...
- kdesktop_links is in kdebase, while it's really a script, and could be
contained in mandrake_desk or similar package for easy replacement.
Or, rather be made (ala /etc/profile.d, /etc/xinit.d etc) for extension.
Would you imagine recompiling kdebase just to add an icon on the
desktop? ;-)
And we have to find out what to do with upgrades, so that new packages
will not overwrite the user's theme.
With the new KDE kiosk framework, this should not be necessary anymore?
If you want to enforce something, you can, and if you don't, the new KDE
config stuff does not write any configuration entries that have not been
modified (which they did in the past), making this all much easier.
We have an rpm we use for desktop machines, which on %post does a number
of operations (add urpmi update source, add NFS mounts to fstab,
installs bootsplash theme, and updates many config files). If a company
then also had a urpmi repository (marked as update source), they would
only need to update the rpm, and have the automagic updates (see urpmi
evangelism thread) pull it in the next morning.
The Sherbrooke University LUG does basically the same thing.
We only have to find out a clean way to do it, and we'll submit it when
it's ready.
This the hack we use (needs some work, since it trashes some
customisations at present):
%post
#SD=$(pwd)
for i in etc usr; do
(cd /$i/cae
echo changed to /$i/cae
FILES=$(find -type f|sed -e 's/^.\///g'|grep -v .orig)
for FILE in $FILES; do
if [ -f /$i/$FILE ]; then
echo moving /$FILE to $FILE.rpmsave_cae
mv /$i/$FILE /$i/$FILE.rpmsave_cae
fi;
PARENT=`dirname /$i/$FILE`
[ -d $PARENT ] || mkdir -p $PARENT
echo copying $FILE to /$i/$FILE
cp -af $FILE /$i/$FILE;
cat $FILE |sed -e 's/RELEASE/mdk'$REL'/g'
/$i/$FILE
done;
)
done;
#Things to do if we are installing for the first time:
if [ $1 -eq 1 ];then
# In case of cd-rom install
echo Removing CDROMS from urpmi:
urpmi.removemedia cdrom1 cdrom2 cdrom3
echo Adding ftp.cae.co.za to urpmi:
REL=$(awk '{print $4}' /etc/mandrake-release)
urpmi.addmedia CAE-$REL
ftp://ftp.cae.co.za/pub/linux/mandrake/mandrake/
$REL/i586/Mandrake/RPMS with ../base/hdlist.cz
urpmi.addmedia CAE-$REL-contrib
ftp://ftp.cae.co.za/pub/linux/mandrake/m
andrake/$REL/i586/Mandrake/RPMS2 with ../base/hdlist2.cz
echo Making home directories
mkdir -p /home/{users,groups,projects}
#Check to see whether each of nfs mounts is in fstab:
for i in users groups projects;do
grep /home/$i /etc/fstab;
if [ $? -ne 0 ];then
cat /etc/cae/fstab.nfs.$i /etc/fstab;
fi;
done;
echo Mounting nfs shares:
mount -a
# Setup bootsplash:
[ -x /usr/share/bootsplash/scripts/switch-themes ] \
/usr/share/bootsplash/scripts/switch-themes cae
[ -x /usr/share/bootsplash/scripts/make-boot-splash ] \
/usr/share/bootsplash/scripts/make-boot-splash
/boot/initrd-`uname -r`.img
if [[ -x /usr/sbin/detectloader ]]; then
LOADER=$(/usr/sbin/detectloader -q)
if [[ $LOADER = LILO ]] [[ -x /sbin/lilo ]];then
/sbin/lilo /dev/null 2/dev/null
fi
if [[ $LOADER = YABOOT ]] [[ -x /sbin/ybin ]];then
/sbin/ybin /dev/null 2/dev/null
fi
fi
#Install packages from contrib
sleep 30 urpmi pam_smb
fi
- --
|--Another happy Mandrake Club member--|
Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc
1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQE+bKUQrJK6UGDSBKcRArf2AJ4lUdCmA7N2Ugub6KTHThUEaQtf9ACgxNDY
BYJANGxyy/HS/WYHmZWyyds=
=KVeU
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Mon Mar 10 15:17 +0100, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Yes. I have to say that I've *never* seen any Windows user using single-click. For some bizarre reason my mother and brother use single-click. My sister is the only sane one (besides me, of course... ;o) ) in the family... -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The food of love is Mandrake root. GPG Fingerprint: 354C 7A02 77C5 9EE7 8538 4E8D DCD9 B4B0 DC35 67CD Currently playing: Stone Temple Pilots - No Way Out Linux 2.4.21-0.13mdk 11:00:03 up 1 day, 18:48, 11 users, load average: 0.22, 0.11, 0.05
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 10:45, Buchan Milne a écrit : - krozat, the screensaver, has hard-coded colors, which is not good if the company logo is not Mandrake blue. Same thing with the Gnome screensaver (Gdadou?), except that it's an XML file. Maybe rather choose a different screensaver, xscreensaver with flag? This would mean though that we need to get at least one more KDE screensaver in ... I actually like krozat a lot, you can create easily a slideshow, but the images path and colors are hardcoded into the binary. But we could always modify it and ship a new one as /usr/bin/oemdesktop.kss for example. - kdesktop_links is in kdebase, while it's really a script, and could be contained in mandrake_desk or similar package for easy replacement. Or, rather be made (ala /etc/profile.d, /etc/xinit.d etc) for extension. Not much to extend =) But we could modify it so it reads /usr/share/oemdesktop/kdesktop_links it it exists. And we have to find out what to do with upgrades, so that new packages will not overwrite the user's theme. With the new KDE kiosk framework, this should not be necessary anymore? I mean, there's ksplash, the program icons, the user icons, the default backgrounds, etc. We must not use any of those if we want to customize them, but we must put them in a special path, since they will be overriten by RPM when the user upgrades KDE, etc. Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Monday 10 March 2003 10:17 pm, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Yes. I have to say that I've *never* seen any Windows user using single-click. About half of the power-users I know do. But they also have the brains to go and find it if they want it. Practically no, er, powerless users use it. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Monday 10 March 2003 04:09 pm, Leon Brooks wrote: On Monday 10 March 2003 10:17 pm, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Yes. I have to say that I've *never* seen any Windows user using single-click. About half of the power-users I know do. But they also have the brains to go and find it if they want it. Practically no, er, powerless users use it. Cheers; Leon Lol powerless users. Well i see it used a fair ammount but yes I would have to say that it is the power users. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Let's end this thread NOW please. Drakclick addresses the concerns already expounded upon at length. David Walser wrote: Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 D F wrote: On March 10, 2003 05:22, John Allen wrote: Yes, I think we could all agree that choice is good. I really need to re-iterate my previous point about repetitive strain disorder, though. To me, defaulting to a single click costs nothing. Since it's trivially easy to change to double-click, the arguments against a single click default are entirely spurious. Not defaulting to single click is like saying it's not necessary that public buildings be wheelchair accessible. Let's not forget, we're young, virile, muscle-bound. iron-pumping code jockeys right now but wait just a few years of mousing 12 to 16 hr a day and we'll see who argues for two clicks when one might do. That's fine, but what about people who have been using windows for 10+ years (ie starting with windows 3.0 or so), and use linux occasionally. My dad (in his 50s) has problems remembering not to double click on links on webpages and the icons on the quicklaunch bar in windows. He would not be very happy if every time he clicked on an office document he had OpenOffice start up (leaving it's splash screen up for 10 seconds or more by default). In some cases, older people may be better of ;-). Buchan Great, here's the Solution. Let's make Mandrake like Lindows/Lycoris/Xandros. Make it look *exactly* like Windows, and I mean exact... C'mon guys, this is Ludicrous. I used Windows for years and switch to Linux. I adapted. I'm sure your father is capable of adapting too. Just because something's different and takes a little getting used to does not mean it's bad.
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 08:48, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le lun 10/03/2003 à 10:45, Buchan Milne a écrit : - krozat, the screensaver, has hard-coded colors, which is not good if the company logo is not Mandrake blue. Same thing with the Gnome screensaver (Gdadou?), except that it's an XML file. Maybe rather choose a different screensaver, xscreensaver with flag? This would mean though that we need to get at least one more KDE screensaver in ... I actually like krozat a lot, you can create easily a slideshow, but the images path and colors are hardcoded into the binary. But we could always modify it and ship a new one as /usr/bin/oemdesktop.kss for example. - kdesktop_links is in kdebase, while it's really a script, and could be contained in mandrake_desk or similar package for easy replacement. Or, rather be made (ala /etc/profile.d, /etc/xinit.d etc) for extension. Not much to extend =) But we could modify it so it reads /usr/share/oemdesktop/kdesktop_links it it exists. And we have to find out what to do with upgrades, so that new packages will not overwrite the user's theme. With the new KDE kiosk framework, this should not be necessary anymore? I mean, there's ksplash, the program icons, the user icons, the default backgrounds, etc. We must not use any of those if we want to customize them, but we must put them in a special path, since they will be overriten by RPM when the user upgrades KDE, etc. Jean-Michel Jean-Michel It almost sounds like something along the lines of what is done with pcmcia is needed. In that you have the stock config file and you can add your own custom config files that override the default (or augment) So when the user customizes their setup the file say user.conf (or any name you care to give it) is created. Now this file is never included in the rpm and only generated and or read if it is there or the user does do some kind of creation. (God I hope I'm being clear here.) Then anytime you upgrade the stock conf gets overwritten but the users custom one doesn't James
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 02:35, David Walser wrote: Levi Ramsey wrote: Just because it's how Windows does it or it's what people are used to is a stupid argument to do anything. Batting one for two, David. Dead on for the first case, but I certainly hope you do not design UIs for the living. I think I'd do well. There is a principle of UI design which is called The Principle of Least Surprise. Man am I glad KDE doesn't follow it. There's this thing called we can do better. Actually they do follow it... very well, hence the K in the lower left korner (couldn't resist the k).. the menu... icons on the desktop... The we can do it better crowd is called NeXt... and we know what happened to them. Why not make the first-time wizard for KDE ask Do you want single-click or double-click? Good idea.
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Sunday 09 March 2003 07:45 pm, David Walser wrote: Actually this change was made quite a while ago (October 28). It was *incredibly* stupid though and I agree with you. I think I will probably have to fix a bunch of things in the KDE packages and just cut my own 9.1 CDs :o( Brent Hasty wrote: whose un-bright idea was it to make double click default in mdk 9.1 rc2?` Forever it has been a single click enviroment in KDE, this change is really throughing a wrench at users who are familiar with and prefer a single click enviroment, makes it a real pain to have to go through and adjust the mouse clicks fore each useser on the network. I hope by the time 9.1 goes full release, single clik will again be the default for KDE I too feel that double click is a definate step backward.. I quit using windows to get away from WINDOWS.. Lets have our single click back as default and make a note during drake first time on how to change back to ugh double click. -- Ken Thompson Payette, Idaho - USA
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Sunday 09 March 2003 9:47 pm, David Walser wrote: Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le dim 09/03/2003 à 16:21, Brent Hasty a écrit : whose un-bright idea was it to make double click default in mdk 9.1 rc2?` I don't know who it is, but *a lot* of users coming from Windows were having problems with the single click, and they ended up always starting their application twice. I don't think it's an un-bright idea, especially in the corporate environment. They do learn eventually though, and once you get used to the efficiency of single-click, you never go back. I did go back for exactly the same reason jean-michel said. I've been using kde since version 1.1 and always set it back to double click eventually. Just because it's how Windows does it or it's what people are used to is a stupid argument to do anything. The argument isn't just because windows does it. It's just because the users do it. Sometimes it takes a little time to get used to something superior, but it works out best in the long run. And hey, if that wasn't true, we'd all be running Windows. Can you say over-generalization. I could just have well been running OS X -- The way of the world is to praise dead saints and prosecute live ones. -- Nathaniel Howe
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Le dim 09/03/2003 à 22:47, David Walser a écrit : I don't know who it is, but *a lot* of users coming from Windows were having problems with the single click, and they ended up always starting their application twice. I don't think it's an un-bright idea, especially in the corporate environment. They do learn eventually though, and once you get used to the efficiency of single-click, you never go back. Just because it's how Windows does That's not quite true, since I use double-click myself. Not because I don't know better (I've been running Linux for the past ten years), but because of the touchpad on my laptop. The tap is too sentitive, and often when I move my mouse it will click in whatever place my pointer is at. Setting to doubleclick solves that problem, since a random double-click happens once every two weeks or so. it or it's what people are used to is a stupid argument to do anything. Sometimes it takes a little time to get used to something superior, but it works out best in the long run. And hey, if that wasn't true, we'd all be running Windows. Please, you might not share my view, but don't call my arguments stupid. If you ever visited a school board that migrated their entire setup to X-Terminals, you'll notice the deep panic the first couple weeks of the year, where everyone (students and teachers), click multiple times on the Star/OpenOffice icon, and the servers start swapping like crazy before going out of memory. Single/Double-click is an option that can be easily changed by the user, and once it's changed, urpmi, updates, even a full reinstall will not change that setting, unless you reformat the partitions. But in conclusion, what's really funny: people who complain about that option are the ones who *are* going to roll out their own CDs anyway ;-) Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Sunday 09 March 2003 07:22 pm, jokerman64 wrote: On Sunday 09 March 2003 9:47 pm, David Walser wrote: Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le dim 09/03/2003 à 16:21, Brent Hasty a écrit : whose un-bright idea was it to make double click default in mdk 9.1 rc2?` I don't know who it is, but *a lot* of users coming from Windows were having problems with the single click, and they ended up always starting their application twice. I don't think it's an un-bright idea, especially in the corporate environment. They do learn eventually though, and once you get used to the efficiency of single-click, you never go back. I did go back for exactly the same reason jean-michel said. I've been using kde since version 1.1 and always set it back to double click eventually. Yes were is that stupid setting I've been looking for it. Iwant to set it to single click. I already have all my winders boxen set this also. I also set them like this by default for the systems I sell. It is way more usable to jsut have everything act like a web page. Just because it's how Windows does it or it's what people are used to is a stupid argument to do anything. The argument isn't just because windows does it. It's just because the users do it. Sometimes it takes a little time to get used to something superior, but it works out best in the long run. And hey, if that wasn't true, we'd all be running Windows. Can you say over-generalization. I could just have well been running OS X -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On March 09, 2003 21:22, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Single/Double-click is an option that can be easily changed by the user, and once it's changed, urpmi, updates, even a full reinstall will not change that setting, unless you reformat the partitions. But in conclusion, what's really funny: people who complain about that option are the ones who *are* going to roll out their own CDs anyway ;-) In my mind, what's important is the ergonomics of the thing. You must admit, Jean-Michel, that your laptop situation is not the general case. In my field, we have people dropping like flies of repetitive strain disorders associated with using the mouse. If you can do it with a single click, that should be the default. If it's as easy to change the behaviour as you say, then changing TO double click FROM single click should not be an issue for anyone, should it? :-) - -- Dave Fluri PGP Public Key-ID 3F64B9AC -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+bAlvo1mPmT9kuawRAgogAJsFMYq2WmlBcP0UpHLpYhdnfWvLcQCfeB6p 45/0tTVe/zekgQ2hZmqZaYg= =yGE4 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
I did go back for exactly the same reason jean-michel said. I've been using kde since version 1.1 and always set it back to double click eventually. Yes were is that stupid setting I've been looking for it. Iwant to set it to single click. I already have all my winders boxen set this also. I also set them like this by default for the systems I sell. It is way more usable to jsut have everything act like a web page. If you're selling systems, you might want to setup a theme, or stuff like that as well. Here's an example of what you could do: In /usr/bin/kdesktop-links, add something like: --- SNIP --- cd $HOME/.kde/share/config [ -f kdeglobals ] || cat EOF kdeglobals [KDE] SingleClick=true colorScheme=mytheme.kcsrc [WM] activeBackground=32,113,32 [Icons] Theme=mytheme [DesktopIcons] Size=32 EOF --- SNIP --- That way, it will setup defaults the first time the user logins. Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
On Sun Mar 09 21:47 -0500, David Walser wrote: They do learn eventually though, and once you get used to the efficiency of single-click, you never go back. That's highly debatable. Just because it's how Windows does it or it's what people are used to is a stupid argument to do anything. Batting one for two, David. Dead on for the first case, but I certainly hope you do not design UIs for the living. There is a principle of UI design which is called The Principle of Least Surprise. Why not make the first-time wizard for KDE ask Do you want single-click or double-click? -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The food of love is Mandrake root. GPG Fingerprint: 354C 7A02 77C5 9EE7 8538 4E8D DCD9 B4B0 DC35 67CD Currently playing: Scott Peeples - Goldeneye Controlled Jazz.ogg Linux 2.4.21-0.13mdk 22:50:00 up 1 day, 6:38, 11 users, load average: 0.49, 0.36, 0.29
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Le dim 09/03/2003 à 23:41, D F a écrit : In my mind, what's important is the ergonomics of the thing. You must admit, Jean-Michel, that your laptop situation is not the general case. In my field, we have people dropping like flies of Not the general case, but most laptops these days come with a touchpad and have the same issues. And the trend is for corporations to provide a laptop to each of their employees, so it's becoming more and more general. repetitive strain disorders associated with using the mouse. If you You have a valid point there. Yes, double-clicking is not practical for those with RSD. However, double-clicking is only used for starting programs or for file preview, so I wouldn't say it will *cause* RSD, since these functions are not used all of the time. File previews are an area where single-click is really nasty, specially with audio or video files, since just clicking to select the file launches the viewer, and it's really annoying when you're trying to move files around to classify them. Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Walser wrote on Sun, Mar 09, 2003 at 09:47:20PM -0500 : They do learn eventually though, and once you get used to the efficiency of single-click, you never go back. Just because it's how Windows does it or it's what people are used to is a stupid argument to do anything. Sometimes it takes a little time to get used to something superior, but it works out best in the long run. And hey, if that wasn't true, we'd all be running Windows. But 95% of the desktop market *IS* running windows. It's one thing to train 40% of the people who use Linux. It's another thing to train 95% of the people who use computers. Think about it. I agree that single click is better once you get used to it, but I still prefer doubleclick because I like to be able to select with single click without launching. I guess at this point, it's more I'm used to this, you should learn to be like me than anything else. Not wrong, just different. Blue skies... Todd - -- MandrakeSoft USA http://www.mandrakesoft.com cat /boot/vmlinuz /dev/dsp #for great justice Mandrake Cooker Devel Version, Kernel 2.4.21-0.12mdk -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+bBbrlp7v05cW2woRAncWAKCvrYMvPYu9HdJBRjW/5WIUdXdGQACggqRB IyA9oTMAUYhHQbin8kON8lM= =52pY -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Re: whose bright idea?
Le dim 09/03/2003 à 23:58, Levi Ramsey a écrit : Batting one for two, David. Dead on for the first case, but I certainly hope you do not design UIs for the living. There is a principle of UI design which is called The Principle of Least Surprise. Windows, Amiga, BeOS, Gnome, Mac, CDE, FluxBox, ICEWM, and any other graphical interface that I ever used are all using the click to select, double-click to operate paradigm. Speaking of UI research, some people might be interested in the KDE Usability Project: http://usability.kde.org/activity/testing/firststeps/index2.php It's from last summer. Test participants were between 20 and 55 years old with education levels ranging from high school diploma to PhD. All of them had in common at least 2 years of day-to-day experience with computers (read familiarity with Windows and MS Office for the most part). Only one had a background in Engineering/Computer Science. Why not make the first-time wizard for KDE ask Do you want single-click or double-click? That would be the ideal solution. Jean-Michel
