Re: [Cooker] Reprint of business suggestions for Mandrake *It's a good Idea*
Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: > > How do I ensure my subset of packages is consistent and that I > haven't left out any RPMs required by the other packages? For example, > we don't use KDE, but some other odd packages implicate KDE libs which > then require the whole of the rest of KDE; we want to ensure we've > also excluded those odd packages. The gross answer is by iterative downloads (the rsync technology we use ensures you won't download any RPM more than once) and installs, and this method tells the truth. Start with a full download and install, then cut back by excluding RPMs you don't want. If you understand the installer files that control package classification, weights, and installation of dependencies, you can construct yourself a checklist, but this will not be as accurate because the installer is not very sensible about what it installs and leaves out. eg, kdegames is always left out. -- Ron. [au]
Re: [Cooker] Reprint of business suggestions for Mandrake *It's a good Idea*
> "R" == Ron Stodden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: R> Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: >> ... What would be very cool is if there was some means to >> quickly build a profile, proof it, and then run the mkcds to >> create a custom subset, and then later, when a new Mandrake >> appears, we just unpack the CDs, plop in our profile, and in >> one command, our standard install package is updated. R> This already exists - see troels.rsync3.pl on my web page. As R> supplied, it downloads a Mandrake or cooker tree, leaving out R> everything non-English, and is easily further customised by R> adding to rsync_exclude to form a profile which will download R> only such a subset as you propose. Sounds great. I'll check it out. How do I ensure my subset of packages is consistent and that I haven't left out any RPMs required by the other packages? For example, we don't use KDE, but some other odd packages implicate KDE libs which then require the whole of the rest of KDE; we want to ensure we've also excluded those odd packages. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: office voice/fax: 01 519 4222723 T(C)Inc Business Innovations through Open Source http://www.teledyn.com KernelWiki Community Linux Docs: http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net/wiki
Re: [Cooker] Reprint of business suggestions for Mandrake *It's a good Idea*
Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: > > This has motivated us to explore creating our own Mandrake subset; > this would give us CDs that only contain the software we use and let > us quickly install a new machine. What would be very cool is if there > was some means to quickly build a profile, proof it, and then run the > mkcds to create a custom subset, and then later, when a new Mandrake > appears, we just unpack the CDs, plop in our profile, and in one > command, our standard install package is updated. This already exists - see troels.rsync3.pl on my web page. As supplied, it downloads a Mandrake or cooker tree, leaving out everything non-English, and is easily further customised by adding to rsync_exclude to form a profile which will download only such a subset as you propose. The profile-building is today an iterative manual process, specify, download, install with hd.img, respecify, etc., adding excludes for what you do NOT want downloaded. -- Ron. [au] Kindly note my new email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and new web site: http://www.ains.net.au/~ronst/
Re: [Cooker] Reprint of business suggestions for Mandrake *It's a good Idea*
Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: > > For example, "developer" could present a short multi-select list of > programming languages; instead of installing over a dozen languages > hardly anyone even knows exist (hands up all prolog programmers! All > those who can code Haskel from the command line?). My hand is up for Prolog, but not Haskell (yet?). -- Ron. [au] Kindly note my new email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and new web site: http://www.ains.net.au/~ronst/
Re: [Cooker] Reprint of business suggestions for Mandrake *It's a good Idea*
Well it didnt go thru last time, in response to GLM's comment.: Well, Canada Boy, there used to be a prompt for "workstation" "development" or "server". Dont know where that went. But I think to get the most greenbacks from business', go with the original plan. That is, main distro as we have it now (prosuites and crap like that included),then stemming from that (doesnt mdk have a firewall/security mini distro already that does this?) mail server, backup solution, network/security stuff (installation could let choose btwn. router,firewall,gateway,whatever else), webfront/enterprise solution (pg,mysql,apache,perl,php, allthatstuff). Just because a business really will choose a one cd firewall over just selecting that as the purpose of install. And we could not waste so much space with unneccessary crap this way (like when the drakx tools for users and whatever crap came out, the workstation/server/devel choice disappeared, and every installation was forced to put in all sorts of crap for these tools that were required on ea. install, making it hard to get install less than 120MB). The currently mdk distro as it is, 80 and cooker, would be correctly labeled as mandrake-workstation.80 or mandrake-workstation.cooker. Whereas the others would be mandrake-mail-solutions.80, mandrake-backup-solution.80, mandrake-webfront.80, and the like. WHAT HAS THE ERGONOMICS/PR/CORPORATE RELATIONS CREW TO SAY? Could we poll those on that mandrake business cases place (the people that use mandrake in some form at their business') to see what their business' would be most likely to like or buy or whatever? Go door to door at local business' over 500 employees and ask their IT crews or whomever what they would choose (and thus recommend to their superiors) :P. We need some actual business owners to give their opinions here as well is mepoint. I will go to the eshare hq (strangely close to me) and ask. But the original purpose of this message was to state that instead of reviving the old choice of purpose at install, to call this what it is, workstation, and sell business' stuff for other purposes, designed to fit their needs. That is what that other guy's point was at the beginning. That would also help staying SMALL when SMALL is what's needed most. This would work. Now there is one thing... What to do when people ask 'well what about the packages in mandrake under server and development?' I DONT KNOW. -Blue, off to try and figure out perl...
Re: [Cooker] Reprint of business suggestions for Mandrake *It's a good Idea*
So sprach »SI Reasoning« am 2001-07-22 um 17:41:47 -0700 : > > I like having a single distro... but each of these > options could be part of the installation choices Yep, me too. That's how I feel! And then there should be some kinda tool that let's you select that you now need a backup server. Debians task system is VERY well suited for this. There, you'd select 'task-backup-server', and this task would then suggest the packages that are suited for this. Debian's .deb seems to be better suited for this anyway. PS: Please no fullquotes! Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die günstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 7 hours 32 minutes
Re: [Cooker] Reprint of business suggestions for Mandrake *It's a good Idea*
> "S" == SI Reasoning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: S> I like having a single distro... but each of these options S> could be part of the installation choices I'd second that; the current list of options don't seem to have parallels in my work experience -- the concept is sound, but the selection process needs a more workable arrangement than the choice of either office, server or developer, or else hand-pick from over 2000 packages. We need a middle ground. For example, "developer" could present a short multi-select list of programming languages; instead of installing over a dozen languages hardly anyone even knows exist (hands up all prolog programmers! All those who can code Haskel from the command line?). Instead of installing both Emacs and XEmacs, these should be choices under development environments. For server, we might ask "mail server", "web server", "firewall" and so on, always keeping the number of elements to choose as a small and manageable list, perhaps 7 to 12 choices. What I'd like to be able to do is to quickly specify profiles where there is as little duplication as possible. Our shop uses openoffice, not koffice, so, for business reasons, there's no choice as far as we are concerned; we spend a lot of time post-install ripping out duplications, and we still end up with menu items that only add clutter. I know Linux people love choice, but uninformed choice is not really an alternative. I wonder if we can offer more insight into the differences between duplicate-function packages, or make it easier (through MandrakeUpdate) to switch between alternatives like Emacs/XEmacs, Gnome/KDE, openoffice/koffice. I know diskspace is cheap, but we nonetheless need it for all the stuff we're paid to work on ;) This has motivated us to explore creating our own Mandrake subset; this would give us CDs that only contain the software we use and let us quickly install a new machine. What would be very cool is if there was some means to quickly build a profile, proof it, and then run the mkcds to create a custom subset, and then later, when a new Mandrake appears, we just unpack the CDs, plop in our profile, and in one command, our standard install package is updated. speaking of which, what is the command(s) to check a Mandrake/RPMS dir to ensure none of the packages depends on packages that are missing? -- Gary Lawrence Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: office voice/fax: 01 519 4222723 T(C)Inc Business Innovations through Open Source http://www.teledyn.com KernelWiki Community Linux Docs: http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net/wiki
Re: [Cooker] Reprint of business suggestions for Mandrake *It's a good Idea*
SI Reasoning, I completely agree. When you install Red Hat 7.1 there is a server as well as a laptop option during install. The reason I suggested a separate distro is so Mandrake can make a few extra bucks. Business don't care how much something costs. And most end users don't have a need for corporate level email support. (designed to handle 100's of users)Also Microsoft is currently raping exchange users. The second idea a samba file server distro with raid support is ideal. If Mandrake ever wants to get into database development racket like Red Hat having a platform they created would be ideal for creating customer loyalty. Again SI I completely agree with you all these options could be included in the regular Mandrake CD. It's just for corporate users most could care less about having a full distro. They just want what works and don't mind paying for it. Plus most end users won't want a stripped down business version or one dedicated to a specific task. Shad --- SI Reasoning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I like having a single distro... but each of these > options could be part of the installation choices > > dedicated email server ... could be one choice and > that focuses the rest of the installation choices. > > thin client could be another with options for > enough info for a floppy per client or maybe just > 100 > meg on a hard drive, etc > > Each choice would have its own recommendations with > alternatives. I am sure that a list dedicated to > these > issues alone could be quite insightful and active > and > I think it would give Mandrake a leg up on the > competition... > > --- S N <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Cooker, > > > > I've been reading what everyone's have been > writing > > about how to make Mandrake better. Ie. fonts, > icons, > > how to place graphics and general logical flow of > > the > > whole distribution. I thought is would also be > nice > > to > > provide Usability Suggestions from a business > point > > of > > view. As well as provide ways to make Mandrake > more > > accepted in business. > > > > Here goes... > > > > Mandrake should consider breaking up the main > > distribution into 4 business directed "Mini" > > distributions. The first "Mini" would be a > dedicated > > email server. If you've ever been in an NT shop or > > used Microsoft software you'll notice that > Exchange > > Server is different than 2000 server or even NT > > server. Exchange Server is just software that > could > > be > > loaded on any of their platforms. But, I'm willing > > to > > bet through usability studies Microsoft as > realized > > users feel more comfortable purchasing a CD that > is > > dedicated to only running an email server. Non > Linux > > people do not understand that once you've > purchased > > a > > quality disrto that's all you need. Instead if > > fighting this mentality work with it. Offer a > > version > > of Mandrake that works as a direct drop in for > > exchange server and that is all it does. I thing > I'm > > like most users and would prefer a X user > interface. > > I > > suggest Xfce because it's surprisingly stable as > > well > > as fast. Create a GUI interface similar to > Mandrake > > control center that only deals with the day to day > > email tasks an admin encounters. Like > > adding/removing > > users, creating email lists, etc. Because you are > > not > > dealing with the end user not providing the source > > on > > your website is ok. In fact most users wound not > > even > > want the "Mini" distro because it would not have > > games > > or other fun stuff. Just include the source in the > > box. > > > > The second "Mini" disrto would be a Samba file > > server > > with raid capabilities. This is an area I really > > believe Mandrake can provide a better product than > > what is currently out there. I think the name is > > fairly explanatory but here is a description > anyway. > > The Samba File and Print Server would be a > platform > > users could save files to as well as take files > > from. > > It would be the way to allow all computers on a > > network to "talk" to each other. Raid capabilities > > would have to be an option since this is where > most > > of > > the cooperate information would be held. The added > > benefit of creating a "Mini" File Server would be > > that > > Mandrake would have a platform that is > standardized > > and ready to accept Oracle, SAP, open, database > > types. > > > > Third would be a Print server. Having a stand > alone > > print server might sound like overkill but I have > > been > > in environments that are tree killing factories > > 5000+ > > printings is not uncommon. Plus at my current work > > it > > always seams like the print servers mess up the > > most. > > > > Fourth, Backup server. I couldn't decide if this > > should be it's own server or part of the File > > server. > > I guess it could be either. Unfortunately I'm not > > very > > familiar with Linux backup schemes so I can't >
Re: [Cooker] Reprint of business suggestions for Mandrake *It's a good Idea*
I like having a single distro... but each of these options could be part of the installation choices dedicated email server ... could be one choice and that focuses the rest of the installation choices. thin client could be another with options for enough info for a floppy per client or maybe just 100 meg on a hard drive, etc Each choice would have its own recommendations with alternatives. I am sure that a list dedicated to these issues alone could be quite insightful and active and I think it would give Mandrake a leg up on the competition... --- S N <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Cooker, > > I've been reading what everyone's have been writing > about how to make Mandrake better. Ie. fonts, icons, > how to place graphics and general logical flow of > the > whole distribution. I thought is would also be nice > to > provide Usability Suggestions from a business point > of > view. As well as provide ways to make Mandrake more > accepted in business. > > Here goes... > > Mandrake should consider breaking up the main > distribution into 4 business directed "Mini" > distributions. The first "Mini" would be a dedicated > email server. If you've ever been in an NT shop or > used Microsoft software you'll notice that Exchange > Server is different than 2000 server or even NT > server. Exchange Server is just software that could > be > loaded on any of their platforms. But, I'm willing > to > bet through usability studies Microsoft as realized > users feel more comfortable purchasing a CD that is > dedicated to only running an email server. Non Linux > people do not understand that once you've purchased > a > quality disrto that's all you need. Instead if > fighting this mentality work with it. Offer a > version > of Mandrake that works as a direct drop in for > exchange server and that is all it does. I thing I'm > like most users and would prefer a X user interface. > I > suggest Xfce because it's surprisingly stable as > well > as fast. Create a GUI interface similar to Mandrake > control center that only deals with the day to day > email tasks an admin encounters. Like > adding/removing > users, creating email lists, etc. Because you are > not > dealing with the end user not providing the source > on > your website is ok. In fact most users wound not > even > want the "Mini" distro because it would not have > games > or other fun stuff. Just include the source in the > box. > > The second "Mini" disrto would be a Samba file > server > with raid capabilities. This is an area I really > believe Mandrake can provide a better product than > what is currently out there. I think the name is > fairly explanatory but here is a description anyway. > The Samba File and Print Server would be a platform > users could save files to as well as take files > from. > It would be the way to allow all computers on a > network to "talk" to each other. Raid capabilities > would have to be an option since this is where most > of > the cooperate information would be held. The added > benefit of creating a "Mini" File Server would be > that > Mandrake would have a platform that is standardized > and ready to accept Oracle, SAP, open, database > types. > > Third would be a Print server. Having a stand alone > print server might sound like overkill but I have > been > in environments that are tree killing factories > 5000+ > printings is not uncommon. Plus at my current work > it > always seams like the print servers mess up the > most. > > Fourth, Backup server. I couldn't decide if this > should be it's own server or part of the File > server. > I guess it could be either. Unfortunately I'm not > very > familiar with Linux backup schemes so I can't really > speak about the capibilities of applications > currently > available. Currently we use Veritas and I hate it. > > Fifth, Business user and Admin "Mini". I could be > wrong here but I feel for the general business user > Mandrake is too much. What would be better would be > a > business directed desktop that Has one of the best > of > everything. (Ie. One cd burner, one editor, one > spreadsheet application) The reason for this and I > know from experience general users do not like > change. > If they become accustomed to one way of performing a > process and change will cause them to piss and moan. > I > remember one person in particular that argued with > me > for 15 minutes that his outdated version of EZ CD > Creator (One of the best windows applications) was > better than the newer more updated version I was > providing him with. Also, Care should be taken to > provide a BUSINESS oriented desktop. I know Mandrake > is trying to retain it's own identity but I can > already hear my CEO complaining that his computer is > to childish and because of that he wants windows > back. > Please could more people add in here as to what > applications business would require. I'm thinking > what > ever programs work with MS Office extensions .doc > most > importantly. A PDF
