Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Jon Nordby]

On 24 August 2010 00:54, Robert Martinez  wrote:
> +1
>
> proprietary software has nothing to do with libre graphics - other than
> representing the exact opposite of what we want.
>
Sometimes it can serve as a point of reference or comparison - since
people are likely to know the proprietary applications.
Informing about how free and open source software can inter-operate
with such applications is also relevant, but I do not think it is our
job to inform about or promote proprietary software.

-- 
Regards Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Robert Martinez]

On 08/23/2010 10:18 AM, Cyrille Berger wrote:

First, I will use this email to say that I like the design, but would want a
bit more contrast, and possibly less transparency under text to increase
readability.

On Sunday 22 August 2010, Yuval Levy wrote:
   

On August 19, 2010 10:53:16 am Camille Bissuel wrote:
 

I assume that no proprietary software will be put in the
software directory
   

Why not?
 

Because the website is about advertising Free Software not their proprietary
counter part. It would be perfectly fine to mention them in an article on
interoperability to show how well they shine, or their short coming. But I
would agree that they do not belong to the software directory.

   

As a creator I believe I have the right to mix and match proprietary and
Free tools.
 

It is indeed your right, but not the goal of create and the libre graphics
movement.

   

I want the directory to help me make an informed choice.  This includes
information on all tools, not just Free ones.
 

And I don't think the goal of that web site is about making an informed
choice, it is about showing free software based work flow. It is not about
lying about the capability of those software, but no reason to give free
advertisement to proprietary products (do you see a link for the gimp or
scribus on Adobe web site ? or for Krita on Corel's web site ? or ...).

   

+1

proprietary software has nothing to do with libre graphics - other than 
representing the exact opposite of what we want.


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Cyrille Berger]

First, I will use this email to say that I like the design, but would want a 
bit more contrast, and possibly less transparency under text to increase 
readability.

On Sunday 22 August 2010, Yuval Levy wrote:
> On August 19, 2010 10:53:16 am Camille Bissuel wrote:
> > I assume that no proprietary software will be put in the
> > software directory
> 
> Why not?

Because the website is about advertising Free Software not their proprietary 
counter part. It would be perfectly fine to mention them in an article on 
interoperability to show how well they shine, or their short coming. But I 
would agree that they do not belong to the software directory.

> As a creator I believe I have the right to mix and match proprietary and
> Free tools.

It is indeed your right, but not the goal of create and the libre graphics 
movement.

> I want the directory to help me make an informed choice.  This includes
> information on all tools, not just Free ones.
And I don't think the goal of that web site is about making an informed 
choice, it is about showing free software based work flow. It is not about 
lying about the capability of those software, but no reason to give free 
advertisement to proprietary products (do you see a link for the gimp or 
scribus on Adobe web site ? or for Krita on Corel's web site ? or ...).

-- 
Cyrille Berger
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Yuval Levy]

On August 22, 2010 08:42:31 pm Schrijver wrote:
> Op 22 aug 2010, om 04:35 heeft Yuval Levy het volgende geschreven:
> > On August 19, 2010 10:53:16 am Camille Bissuel wrote:
> >> I assume that no proprietary software will be put in the
> >> software directory
> > 
> > Why not?
> > 
> > As a creator I believe I have the right to mix and match proprietary and
> > Free tools.



> If you want politics on the subject of websites and mentioning software,
> read this:
> http://www.gnu.org/server/standards/README.webmastering.html#pollinking
> 
> I think (hope!) we can be more pragmatic than that.

Agree.  If "no proprietary software will be put in the software directory", 
where else should it go? my conclusion was that there is no place for 
proprietary software.  Correct me if I wrongly jumped to conclusions.  IMO all 
software should be mentioned in the software directory.

Yuv


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Schrijver]

Op 22 aug 2010, om 04:35 heeft Yuval Levy het volgende geschreven:

> On August 19, 2010 10:53:16 am Camille Bissuel wrote:
>> I assume that no proprietary software will be put in the
>> software directory
> 
> Why not?
> 
> As a creator I believe I have the right to mix and match proprietary and Free 
> tools.  
> 
> I want the directory to help me make an informed choice.  This includes 
> information on all tools, not just Free ones.


> 


I figured Camille meant actual mistakes like:
listing Illustrator under a list of free software programs

Because whichever stance you take, that’s incorrect.

That Camille implied:
the site needs an editor.

To which I would agree :)

If you want politics on the subject of websites and mentioning software, read 
this:
http://www.gnu.org/server/standards/README.webmastering.html#pollinking

I think (hope!) we can be more pragmatic than that.

Seeing how most contemporary designers work at the moment work with *only* 
proprietary software, I think you would be hard pressed to explain what we are 
doing without mentioning it.

In fact, I think a lot can be gained by showing how open standards and open 
tools can come into an existing workflow.

Like: how can I use Adobe Illustrator to make SVG
Or: how can I use MacPorts to install Unix software

Partly because these act like gateway drugs
(to inkscape and linux in this case);

And partly because the practice of professional designers will, for the 
foreseeable future, be a mix of both kinds of software, and that’s a situation 
we should be able to deal with.

cheers
Eric
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Yuval Levy]

On August 19, 2010 10:53:16 am Camille Bissuel wrote:
> I assume that no proprietary software will be put in the
> software directory

Why not?

As a creator I believe I have the right to mix and match proprietary and Free 
tools.  

I want the directory to help me make an informed choice.  This includes 
information on all tools, not just Free ones.

I prefer to find out earlier than later if there are interoperability issues 
and how standard compliant a software is if there are standards.

Anti-competitive behavior that limits my freedom directly or indirectly should 
be exposed (e.g. NDA's that make it difficult or impossible for developers to 
support my need for interoperability).

The difference between advertising and information is that advertising centers 
on strengths only, conveniently forgetting to mention the weaknesses.  I would 
like to see an informative directory complete and honest, even if sometimes 
honesty is brutally hurting.

Yuv


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

Hi all,

Here is an arborescence/hierarchy view of the new website project :
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/arborescence.png

It's made with the idea that any content should not be more than 3 click
away (not so easy for directories) and that any menu should not contain more
than 5-7 items.
And the corresponding SVG file here : http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/

I hope it will allow us to discuss content more.
Another subject is what can be put on this website to be "professional" (for
example, I assume that no proprietary software will be put in the software
directory, that planet is not suited for articles on cryptography...), and
which "rules" are used.

Cheers
--yagraph



2010/8/19 Gregory Pittman 

>  I have to say I like the more "beefy" look of Camille's work. Also the use
> of vibrant colors, yet keeping the text parts highly legible.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On 08/18/2010 07:51 PM, Robert Martinez wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> allow me to hop in here: some time ago I made a redesegin of the create
> page, but it didn't go online because neither jon nor I had the time to copy
> some stuff around on the server.
> (it is just the current markup with new css + +images + @fontface)
>
>   here is the html: http://mray.de/create/test.html
>   here is a screenshot: http://mray.de/create/Screenshot.jpg
>
> It misses quite some elements regarding the new content, but in terms of a
> new look I consider it to be a relevant option.
>
> Supposed new stuff is added - what do you think?
>
>
> Cheers,
> Robert
>
> On 08/18/2010 06:22 PM, Camille Bissuel wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative peoples
> mailing list ;)
>
> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png
>
> It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I keep on
> abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles and icons to let
> the eye focus on content.
>
> If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG (made in
> Inkscape 0.47) files are here : http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
> Backgrounds are generated thought 
> ImageSpace.
> Icons are a personal rework of the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream
> Charter and DejaVu Sans.
>
> Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.
>
> Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web pages in
> Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki or Mediawiki.
>
> Please comment on content and design.
> If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this discussion
> with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.
>
>
>
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

Thanks for those positive feedbacks, it's very rewarding ;)
I'll try to provide more today, and to set up a full arborescence/hierarchy.

Sorry for my English mistakes too... don't hesitate to correct me.

@ Robert : I like the create logo redesign you've done ;)

Cheers,
--yagraph


2010/8/19 Gregory Pittman 

>  I have to say I like the more "beefy" look of Camille's work. Also the use
> of vibrant colors, yet keeping the text parts highly legible.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On 08/18/2010 07:51 PM, Robert Martinez wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> allow me to hop in here: some time ago I made a redesegin of the create
> page, but it didn't go online because neither jon nor I had the time to copy
> some stuff around on the server.
> (it is just the current markup with new css + +images + @fontface)
>
>   here is the html: http://mray.de/create/test.html
>   here is a screenshot: http://mray.de/create/Screenshot.jpg
>
> It misses quite some elements regarding the new content, but in terms of a
> new look I consider it to be a relevant option.
>
> Supposed new stuff is added - what do you think?
>
>
> Cheers,
> Robert
>
> On 08/18/2010 06:22 PM, Camille Bissuel wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative peoples
> mailing list ;)
>
> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png
>
> It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I keep on
> abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles and icons to let
> the eye focus on content.
>
> If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG (made in
> Inkscape 0.47) files are here : http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
> Backgrounds are generated thought 
> ImageSpace.
> Icons are a personal rework of the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream
> Charter and DejaVu Sans.
>
> Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.
>
> Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web pages in
> Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki or Mediawiki.
>
> Please comment on content and design.
> If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this discussion
> with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.
>
>
>
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Gregory Pittman]

 I have to say I like the more "beefy" look of Camille's work. Also the 
use of vibrant colors, yet keeping the text parts highly legible.


Greg

On 08/18/2010 07:51 PM, Robert Martinez wrote:

Hello,

allow me to hop in here: some time ago I made a redesegin of the 
create page, but it didn't go online because neither jon nor I had the 
time to copy some stuff around on the server.

(it is just the current markup with new css + +images + @fontface)

  here is the html: http://mray.de/create/test.html
  here is a screenshot: http://mray.de/create/Screenshot.jpg

It misses quite some elements regarding the new content, but in terms 
of a new look I consider it to be a relevant option.


Supposed new stuff is added - what do you think?


Cheers,
Robert

On 08/18/2010 06:22 PM, Camille Bissuel wrote:

Hi all,

Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative 
peoples mailing list ;)


So, I've started to sketch this new website :
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I 
keep on abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles 
and icons to let the eye focus on content.


If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG 
(made in Inkscape 0.47) files are here : 
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
Backgrounds are generated thought ImageSpace 
. Icons are a personal rework of 
the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream Charter and DejaVu Sans.


Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.

Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web 
pages in Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki 
or Mediawiki.


Please comment on content and design.
If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this 
discussion with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Robert Martinez]

Hello,

allow me to hop in here: some time ago I made a redesegin of the create 
page, but it didn't go online because neither jon nor I had the time to 
copy some stuff around on the server.

(it is just the current markup with new css + +images + @fontface)

  here is the html: http://mray.de/create/test.html
  here is a screenshot: http://mray.de/create/Screenshot.jpg

It misses quite some elements regarding the new content, but in terms of 
a new look I consider it to be a relevant option.


Supposed new stuff is added - what do you think?


Cheers,
Robert

On 08/18/2010 06:22 PM, Camille Bissuel wrote:

Hi all,

Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative 
peoples mailing list ;)


So, I've started to sketch this new website :
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I 
keep on abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles 
and icons to let the eye focus on content.


If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG (made 
in Inkscape 0.47) files are here : http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
Backgrounds are generated thought ImageSpace 
. Icons are a personal rework of 
the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream Charter and DejaVu Sans.


Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.

Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web 
pages in Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki 
or Mediawiki.


Please comment on content and design.
If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this 
discussion with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.


Cheers,
-- yagraph


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 8/18/10, Camille Bissuel wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative peoples
> mailing list ;)
>
> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

Just one minor design unrelated note: it's "people", not "peoples" :-)

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Kai-Uwe Behrmann]

Am 18.08.10, 23:44 +0200 schrieb Craig Bradney:

On 8/18/10 10:49 PM, Udi Fuchs wrote:

Camille Bissuel gave a try:

So, I've started to sketch this new website :
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

They are all beautiful. The first one (News) is the best.

There are a few tiny issues with usability:

1. It is hard to see that I'm in the 'News' tab. It needs a bit more contrast.

2. At first look, I missed the text "Don't miss..."



These rock!


... and even done without flash, looks wonderful.

kind regards
Kai-Uwe Behrmann
--
developing for colour management 
www.behrmann.name + www.oyranos.org


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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Craig Bradney]

 On 8/18/10 10:49 PM, Udi Fuchs wrote:
>> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
>> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
>> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
>> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png
> They are all beautiful. The first one (News) is the best.
>
> There are a few tiny issues with usability:
>
> 1. It is hard to see that I'm in the 'News' tab. It needs a bit more contrast.
>
> 2. At first look, I missed the text "Don't miss..."
>

These rock!

Craig
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Udi Fuchs]

> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

They are all beautiful. The first one (News) is the best.

There are a few tiny issues with usability:

1. It is hard to see that I'm in the 'News' tab. It needs a bit more contrast.

2. At first look, I missed the text "Don't miss..."

Udi
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/18 Camille Bissuel 

> Hi all,
>
> Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative peoples
> mailing list ;)
>
> So, I've started to sketch this new website :
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
> http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png
>
> It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I keep on
> abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles and icons to let
> the eye focus on content.
>
> If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG (made in
> Inkscape 0.47) files are here : http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
> Backgrounds are generated thought 
> ImageSpace.
> Icons are a personal rework of the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream
> Charter and DejaVu Sans.
>
> Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.
>
> Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web pages in
> Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki or Mediawiki.
>
> Please comment on content and design.
>

Looks great !

Bravo !

Louis

> If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this discussion
> with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.
>
> Cheers,
> -- yagraph
>
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

Hi all,

Let's try a design suicide by posting some sketchs on a creative peoples
mailing list ;)

So, I've started to sketch this new website :
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-news.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-peoples.png
http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/draft-web-create-projects.png

It's very hard to draw something meaningful for all projects, so I keep on
abstract backgrounds (neutrals), and black and white titles and icons to let
the eye focus on content.

If you feel to test it yourself or improve it, corresponding SVG (made in
Inkscape 0.47) files are here : http://www.yagraph.org/images/create/
Backgrounds are generated thought
ImageSpace.
Icons are a personal rework of the tango icon set. Fonts are Bitstream
Charter and DejaVu Sans.

Index page is supposed to be the News or About page.

Stay one problem : I know how to transform thoses sketches in Web pages in
Wordpress, but I'm not sure if I can achieve it with Anwiki or Mediawiki.

Please comment on content and design.
If needed to do not flood this mailing list, we may go on this discussion
with a smaller set of volunteer peoples.

Cheers,
-- yagraph
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Camille Bissuel wrote:

> Why is there content like this unrelated one, or the Boudewijn's holidays on
> the Create planet today, a mistake?

Not all blog CMSs generate feeds per category or per tag. It's quite
possible that boud's doesn't. Or maybe it does, but wasn't used by
whoever added his blog.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Jon Nordby]

On 16 August 2010 13:43, Camille Bissuel  wrote:
> Ok, well done Cyrille and Louis, you convinced me.
> I though it was easier to start from the ground, and that I wasn't allowed
> to modify existing tools (I don't know why, maybe because I'm new in the
> place).
Its often easier to start that way, but it is most-often not an easier
way to achieve something good. I'm glad you feel this is the right way
to go. This means we can instantly start focusing on the things that
actually adds value to our projects and users.

> Can we restructure the http://create.freedesktop.org/ website main page to
> add more content and some visual improvements ?
>
> News (planet for projects and gallery - actual planet + one more for gallery
> -)
> Projects (Presentations for Software and tools, Standards, Events, Teaching
> certification)
> Peoples (Developers, Professional Artists, Teachers, Users)
> Resources (Directory for Documentation, How-tos, Tutorials, Glossary,
> Gallery)
> About (association ?, website)
In tune with the above, I suggest focusing on the content first. Find
out the rough scope of the content we want to provide, and then
prioritize the most important things first.

> Do we forget about libre-graphics.org, simply redirecting to Create ?
Fine by me.

> Can I submit some sketch, to who (this mailing ?) ?
Just toss the file online somewhere, and link to it here.

> Why is there content like this unrelated one, or the Boudewijn's holidays on
> the Create planet today, a mistake?
A planet is often considered to be "a view of the world" of people
added to the planet, little to nothing is considered offtopic. Its a
nice, free-flow style that a lot of people like. But we might want to
add more specific aggregation of content, like only project news, only
libre graphics works or similar.

-- 
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Gregory Pittman]

On 08/16/2010 08:22 AM, Camille Bissuel wrote:

Thanks a lot, Alexandre, I make a copy now, and see what we can do with it.
At last, I understood, and we found some place to start building.


I can't say that I have anything at the moment, but I suppose it might 
make sense for those with content ideas, and especially content itself, 
to submit directly to Camille, who is functioning as our "editor" of sorts.


Greg
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

Thanks a lot, Alexandre, I make a copy now, and see what we can do with it.
At last, I understood, and we found some place to start building.

Cheers,
--yagraph


2010/8/16 Alexandre Prokoudine 

> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Camille Bissuel wrote:
>
> > Alexandre, do you agree to move some of your contents, like the FAQs for
> the
> > main application or your software web links, on the same website to make
> > things more coherent ?
>
> FAQs in their current form are of little use. It was an idea that didn't
> work.
> Feel free to use the text, I will remove it next week probably.
> The software catalog (weblinks) will stay.
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Camille Bissuel wrote:

> Alexandre, do you agree to move some of your contents, like the FAQs for the
> main application or your software web links, on the same website to make
> things more coherent ?

FAQs in their current form are of little use. It was an idea that didn't work.
Feel free to use the text, I will remove it next week probably.
The software catalog (weblinks) will stay.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

Ok, well done Cyrille and Louis, you convinced me.
I though it was easier to start from the ground, and that I wasn't allowed
to modify existing tools (I don't know why, maybe because I'm new in the
place).

I do agree too than we need to build on existing tools, and that Gnome
foundation is the best way to handle money today.
Despite that, an association may be still interesting for branding, to say
to peoples : yes, we do exist as a "moral entity" and we are organized.

Can we restructure the http://create.freedesktop.org/ website main page to
add more content and some visual improvements ?

   - News (planet for projects and gallery - actual planet + one more for
   gallery -)
   - Projects (Presentations for Software and tools, Standards, Events,
   Teaching certification)
   - Peoples (Developers, Professional Artists, Teachers, Users)
   - Resources (Directory for Documentation, How-tos, Tutorials, Glossary,
   Gallery)
   - About (association ?, website)

Do we forget about libre-graphics.org, simply redirecting to Create ?
Can I submit some sketch, to who (this mailing ?) ?
Can I have some admin access to this main page to start working on it ?
Why is there content like this unrelated
one,
or the Boudewijn's holidays on the Create planet today, a mistake?
Alexandre, do you agree to move some of your contents, like the FAQs for the
main application or your software web links, on the same website to make
things more coherent ?

How can we work on this together ?

Please, let me know.
--yagraph



2010/8/16 Cyrille Berger 

> On Monday 16 August 2010, Louis Desjardins wrote:
> > 2010/8/16 Louis Desjardins 
> > > 2010/8/16 Camille Bissuel 
> > >> For the Libre graphics magazine, I do agree too, but it will have a
> far
> > >> much lesser diffusion than a website. I don't understand why peoples
> > >> agree on the magazine, and not on the website, despite they share
> parts
> > >> on the same objectives (promoting and demonstrating libre graphics
> > >> tools). Am I stupid ?
> > >
> > > In the eyes of many people on this list we are already into an
> > > "association". We belong to this community, we work together, we
> > > communicate a lot, we have means to do this. This is what most people
> > > would call an association !
> > >
> >> (...)
> >
> > Let’s not reinvent the wheel but use it instead. From the rolling stones
> we
> > have made wheels, and from wheels we have made gears and pulleys. I see
> > many of the ideas here as gears or pulleys. From gears, we have created
> > motors and watches and so many things ! With pulleys you can lift heavy
> > weights with so little energy...
>
> Yes and it is exactly why the magazine idea get so much traction, it is a
> new
> wheel. Lets create new wheel, with a magazine, contests, gallery, etc. Or
> improve old wheels. Lets create more content for lgw, have a more
> structured
> wiki on create.fd.o.
>
> --
> Cyrille Berger
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Cyrille Berger]

On Monday 16 August 2010, Louis Desjardins wrote:
> 2010/8/16 Louis Desjardins 
> > 2010/8/16 Camille Bissuel 
> >> For the Libre graphics magazine, I do agree too, but it will have a far
> >> much lesser diffusion than a website. I don't understand why peoples
> >> agree on the magazine, and not on the website, despite they share parts
> >> on the same objectives (promoting and demonstrating libre graphics
> >> tools). Am I stupid ?
> > 
> > In the eyes of many people on this list we are already into an
> > "association". We belong to this community, we work together, we
> > communicate a lot, we have means to do this. This is what most people
> > would call an association !
> > 
>> (...)
> 
> Let’s not reinvent the wheel but use it instead. From the rolling stones we
> have made wheels, and from wheels we have made gears and pulleys. I see
> many of the ideas here as gears or pulleys. From gears, we have created
> motors and watches and so many things ! With pulleys you can lift heavy
> weights with so little energy...

Yes and it is exactly why the magazine idea get so much traction, it is a new 
wheel. Lets create new wheel, with a magazine, contests, gallery, etc. Or 
improve old wheels. Lets create more content for lgw, have a more structured 
wiki on create.fd.o. 

-- 
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Cyrille Berger]

On Monday 16 August 2010, ginger coons wrote:
> > One remark though -- i'm not fond of the idea of a PDF-only magazine.
> > Sure, we'd need to get funding and/or sponsorship to support the
> > printing costs, but a printed publication is many things that a PDF file
> > is not. (also, if it would be online-only, better to have a website
> > containing the desired content than a clunky PDF, IMHO.)
> 
> I really think that this is the crucial bit. Print is massively important
> for two reasons. 1) Most people know that F/LOSS can make great websites.
> After all, the web is built on open. But we don't have the same reputation
> when it comes to print design, which is still kind of the base unit of
> graphic design. 2) Having a printed magazine to hand out at events means
> giving people concrete proof of both excellent software and a vibrant user
> community. A magazine is something that can actually be flipped through,
> read on the subway on the way home, and that requires no further action.
> Plus, there's the pass-along factor. A magazine can be shared and reading
> it with someone else is a nice sharing experience.
A possible solution is to look for on-demand printing.

But I think it would first be better to have it rolling with just a PDF 
edition, on a regular basis (3 months ?) and special edition made at a booth 
or LGM. And when the ball is rolling, I think it would be possible to start 
offering printed subscriptions, and either start a fund raising to get the 
initial capital, or say that you need X promised subscriptions before starting 
to ship.

But then, you will be handling money, and will need a register association :)

-- 
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/16 ginger coons 

>
> One remark though -- i'm not fond of the idea of a PDF-only magazine. Sure,
>> we'd need to get funding and/or sponsorship to support the printing costs,
>> but a printed publication is many things that a PDF file is not. (also, if
>> it would be online-only, better to have a website containing the desired
>> content than a clunky PDF, IMHO.)
>>
>
> I really think that this is the crucial bit. Print is massively important
> for two reasons. 1) Most people know that F/LOSS can make great websites.
> After all, the web is built on open. But we don't have the same reputation
> when it comes to print design, which is still kind of the base unit of
> graphic design. 2) Having a printed magazine to hand out at events means
> giving people concrete proof of both excellent software and a vibrant user
> community. A magazine is something that can actually be flipped through,
> read on the subway on the way home, and that requires no further action.
> Plus, there's the pass-along factor. A magazine can be shared and reading it
> with someone else is a nice sharing experience.
>

100 % agree.

And this brings me again to content.

What I think is we can already produce things to the same level of
perfectness as with proprietary software — only the road to achieve this can
be sometimes tedious! :)

We need: good design and good content. Putting this together using F/LOSS is
doable.

Louis

>
> --
> ginger "all-lower-case" coons
> adaptstudio.ca
> 647.865.7757 (Toronto)
> 514.213.1318 (Montreal)
>
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Louis Desjardins]

More below  sorry again to all readers of this long email

2010/8/16 Louis Desjardins 

> 2010/8/16 Camille Bissuel 
>
>> to Cyrille Berger :
>>
>>
>> *While lgw does not cover the LGA purpose, it matches the lga website. To
>> be
>> honest, from what I have understood, lga = lgw + create.*
>> ---> In my view, lga > lgw + create, to another public (users) and other
>> aims (demonstrate + explain +teach ...). LGW is excellent for news and
>> Create is excellent for collaboration between projects, but there are others
>> topics to be covered.
>> Can I mess up the create wiki and change it's aim without starting a flame
>> war ? If I can, I do agree with you that there is no need for another
>> website.
>
>
> Hi Camile !
>
> Maybe I can suggest you don’t put words like "mess up" in this context ?
> This is surely paving the way to some sort of mess... :) which is obviously
> what you don’t want to achieve !
>
>>
>>
>>
>> *If people thinks create does not works very well, I fail to see how
>> having an "association" is
>> going to magically solve any problem. Especially, considering that what
>> create
>> lack is mostly of animation.
>> Also, creating an association with no revenue seems to be a lot of
>> bureaucratic work. In many countries, the main point of registering an
>> association is to get access to a bank account.*
>> ---> to have a bank account in the future, you have to start by creating
>> an association, not the opposite way. It will allow us to start the project
>> and start to share some means. Furthermore, according to a.l.e, creating an
>> association in Switzerland is really simple and there is no bureaucratic
>> work.
>
>
> Never underestimate the bureaucratic work... :)
>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Finally, I want to encourage any effort in promoting libre creative
>> software,
>> but I add my voices in the "there is already too many separated efforts,
>> lets
>> join force instead of creating new".*
>>  ---> Totally agree with that. What I'm doing wrong to let you think that
>> LGA is not about joining forces ?
>>
>> For the Libre graphics magazine, I do agree too, but it will have a far
>> much lesser diffusion than a website. I don't understand why peoples agree
>> on the magazine, and not on the website, despite they share parts on the
>> same objectives (promoting and demonstrating libre graphics tools).
>> Am I stupid ?
>>
>
> In the eyes of many people on this list we are already into an
> "association". We belong to this community, we work together, we communicate
> a lot, we have means to do this. This is what most people would call an
> association !
>
> You have more ideas, which is great ! You think we should embrace more
> topics that are not covered yet, okay !
>
> But again, this can all be done going in the same flow we have already. No
> need to reinvent the wheel. Just push in the same direction. Add some more
> bits here and there. If we need a more structured association, we have
> already a discussion on the wiki about this and a few incredibly rich
> threads on the Creates Mailing List. Already, there is a big work only
> gathering together those ideas and make them come alive...
>
> I think that so far it’s only a matter of communication. I have been
> participating in the BoF at LGM with you. I am all for a more structured
> association. We have announced together at LGM that we’d be doing it
> quickly. The only thing we should do now is do it.
>
> Some more notes.
>
> In 2007 I have put together a non-profit to help organise LGM as I rapidly
> discovered that in order to get some local sponsorship (especially from the
> government). Since then, this non-profit has been left there, unused. I
> haven’t looked after this association for years. I didn’t use it in 2009
> because it was too much for me to handle the accounting so I preferred to
> leave that to the GNOME Foundation. Today, the assocation named "Quebec
> Association for the Development and Promotion of Free Software" is reviving
> because we have a big project going on with the Francophonie and we will be
> handling funds. I have even opened an account in euros so we don’t need to
> convert the funds and we thus avoid a lot of stress with the handling of
> international funding, something that is even better than what the GNOME
> Foundation can offer us, in some way. It would be as easy — and even easier
> — to open an account in US dollars. But all this have a cost in both money
> and time. An account at the bank cost a little bit of money. And we have to
> provide some papers each year to the government, and we need a proper
> accounting...
>
> So there is an association which I run and which has no website !
> Nonetheless it works and with this new project with OIF it will be running
> for months from now. I even have plans to use it next year for LGM —
> although I am still not sure of that but I am thinking of that...
>
> All this to say that if you think we need a better / nicer
>

...  All this to say, w

Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[ginger coons]

> One remark though -- i'm not fond of the idea of a PDF-only magazine. Sure,
> we'd need to get funding and/or sponsorship to support the printing costs,
> but a printed publication is many things that a PDF file is not. (also, if
> it would be online-only, better to have a website containing the desired
> content than a clunky PDF, IMHO.)
>

I really think that this is the crucial bit. Print is massively important
for two reasons. 1) Most people know that F/LOSS can make great websites.
After all, the web is built on open. But we don't have the same reputation
when it comes to print design, which is still kind of the base unit of
graphic design. 2) Having a printed magazine to hand out at events means
giving people concrete proof of both excellent software and a vibrant user
community. A magazine is something that can actually be flipped through,
read on the subway on the way home, and that requires no further action.
Plus, there's the pass-along factor. A magazine can be shared and reading it
with someone else is a nice sharing experience.

-- 
ginger "all-lower-case" coons
adaptstudio.ca
647.865.7757 (Toronto)
514.213.1318 (Montreal)
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Cyrille Berger]

On Monday 16 August 2010, Camille Bissuel wrote:
> to Cyrille Berger :
> 
> *While lgw does not cover the LGA purpose, it matches the lga website. To
> be honest, from what I have understood, lga = lgw + create.*
> ---> In my view, lga > lgw + create, to another public (users) and other
> aims (demonstrate + explain +teach ...). LGW is excellent for news and
> Create is excellent for collaboration between projects, but there are
> others topics to be covered.
> Can I mess up the create wiki and change it's aim without starting a flame
> war ? If I can, I do agree with you that there is no need for another
> website.
I sure hope that you can discuss improvements to the create wiki without 
starting a flame war.

-- 
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[ricardo lafuente]

On 08/16/2010 10:57 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

I had the magazine idea a year ago: as a concept, few layout ideas and
content plan for a couple of issues. But never had a team to support
it and didn't see a way to make it financially rewarding.
Ginger and Ricardo picked the idea


and Ana Carvalho


and then Libre Graphics Magazine #0 was done
for LGM this year. In three days.


Production was two days, actually :o)


Amazing job they did, by the way. I
wonder if they intend to work further on it.


This is a good cue. Ginger's reply said everything i would have -- 
having a real object that we can show people how FLOSS tools can get the 
job done nicely is 1000x more effective in promoting FLOSS tools than 
dry evangelising about software packages and their pros and cons.


Me and Ana would definitely be happy to go further with LGMag. Let me 
emphasise that the #0 issue was produced on a 2-day sprint -- definitely 
shedding my own preconceptions that publishing a magazine would be a 
more sluggish and convoluted process*. And having that issue to show 
skeptical designers how FLOSS can get stuff done is a godsend.


So yes, the team from LGM Magazine #0 is up for going on with the 
project. We can go on discussing this on another thread.


One remark though -- i'm not fond of the idea of a PDF-only magazine. 
Sure, we'd need to get funding and/or sponsorship to support the 
printing costs, but a printed publication is many things that a PDF file 
is not. (also, if it would be online-only, better to have a website 
containing the desired content than a clunky PDF, IMHO.)


:r

* And of course, Ginger's awesome copyediting-fu is much to blame for 
this having turned out right.

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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Louis Desjardins]

Sorry ! I hit the "send" button before finishing my email ! :)

Please be patient ! I will conclude shortly !

Louis

2010/8/16 Louis Desjardins 

> 2010/8/16 Camille Bissuel 
>
>> to Cyrille Berger :
>>
>>
>> *While lgw does not cover the LGA purpose, it matches the lga website. To
>> be
>> honest, from what I have understood, lga = lgw + create.*
>> ---> In my view, lga > lgw + create, to another public (users) and other
>> aims (demonstrate + explain +teach ...). LGW is excellent for news and
>> Create is excellent for collaboration between projects, but there are others
>> topics to be covered.
>> Can I mess up the create wiki and change it's aim without starting a flame
>> war ? If I can, I do agree with you that there is no need for another
>> website.
>
>
> Hi Camile !
>
> Maybe I can suggest you don’t put words like "mess up" in this context ?
> This is surely paving the way to some sort of mess... :) which is obviously
> what you don’t want to achieve !
>
>>
>>
>>
>> *If people thinks create does not works very well, I fail to see how
>> having an "association" is
>> going to magically solve any problem. Especially, considering that what
>> create
>> lack is mostly of animation.
>> Also, creating an association with no revenue seems to be a lot of
>> bureaucratic work. In many countries, the main point of registering an
>> association is to get access to a bank account.*
>> ---> to have a bank account in the future, you have to start by creating
>> an association, not the opposite way. It will allow us to start the project
>> and start to share some means. Furthermore, according to a.l.e, creating an
>> association in Switzerland is really simple and there is no bureaucratic
>> work.
>
>
> Never underestimate the bureaucratic work... :)
>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Finally, I want to encourage any effort in promoting libre creative
>> software,
>> but I add my voices in the "there is already too many separated efforts,
>> lets
>> join force instead of creating new".*
>>  ---> Totally agree with that. What I'm doing wrong to let you think that
>> LGA is not about joining forces ?
>>
>> For the Libre graphics magazine, I do agree too, but it will have a far
>> much lesser diffusion than a website. I don't understand why peoples agree
>> on the magazine, and not on the website, despite they share parts on the
>> same objectives (promoting and demonstrating libre graphics tools).
>> Am I stupid ?
>>
>
> In the eyes of many people on this list we are already into an
> "association". We belong to this community, we work together, we communicate
> a lot, we have means to do this. This is what most people would call an
> association !
>
> You have more ideas, which is great ! You think we should embrace more
> topics that are not covered yet, okay !
>
> But again, this can all be done going in the same flow we have already. No
> need to reinvent the wheel. Just push in the same direction. Add some more
> bits here and there. If we need a more structured association, we have
> already a discussion on the wiki about this and a few incredibly rich
> threads on the Creates Mailing List. Already, there is a big work only
> gathering together those ideas and make them come alive...
>
> I think that so far it’s only a matter of communication. I have been
> participating in the BoF at LGM with you. I am all for a more structured
> association. We have announced together at LGM that we’d be doing it
> quickly. The only thing we should do now is do it.
>
> Some more notes.
>
> In 2007 I have put together a non-profit to help organise LGM as I rapidly
> discovered that in order to get some local sponsorship (especially from the
> government). Since then, this non-profit has been left there, unused. I
> haven’t looked after this association for years. I didn’t use it in 2009
> because it was too much for me to handle the accounting so I preferred to
> leave that to the GNOME Foundation. Today, the assocation named "Quebec
> Association for the Development and Promotion of Free Software" is reviving
> because we have a big project going on with the Francophonie and we will be
> handling funds. I have even opened an account in euros so we don’t need to
> convert the funds and we thus avoid a lot of stress with the handling of
> international funding, something that is even better than what the GNOME
> Foundation can offer us, in some way. It would be as easy — and even easier
> — to open an account in US dollars. But all this have a cost in both money
> and time. An account at the bank cost a little bit of money. And we have to
> provide some papers each year to the government, and we need a proper
> accounting...
>
> So there is an association which I run and which has no website !
> Nonetheless it works and with this new project with OIF it will be running
> for months from now. I even have plans to use it next year for LGM —
> although I am still not sure of that but I am thinking of that...
>
> All this to say that if you think 

Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/16 Camille Bissuel 

> to Cyrille Berger :
>
>
> *While lgw does not cover the LGA purpose, it matches the lga website. To
> be
> honest, from what I have understood, lga = lgw + create.*
> ---> In my view, lga > lgw + create, to another public (users) and other
> aims (demonstrate + explain +teach ...). LGW is excellent for news and
> Create is excellent for collaboration between projects, but there are others
> topics to be covered.
> Can I mess up the create wiki and change it's aim without starting a flame
> war ? If I can, I do agree with you that there is no need for another
> website.


Hi Camile !

Maybe I can suggest you don’t put words like "mess up" in this context ?
This is surely paving the way to some sort of mess... :) which is obviously
what you don’t want to achieve !

>
>
>
> *If people thinks create does not works very well, I fail to see how
> having an "association" is
> going to magically solve any problem. Especially, considering that what
> create
> lack is mostly of animation.
> Also, creating an association with no revenue seems to be a lot of
> bureaucratic work. In many countries, the main point of registering an
> association is to get access to a bank account.*
> ---> to have a bank account in the future, you have to start by creating an
> association, not the opposite way. It will allow us to start the project and
> start to share some means. Furthermore, according to a.l.e, creating an
> association in Switzerland is really simple and there is no bureaucratic
> work.


Never underestimate the bureaucratic work... :)

>
>
>
> *Finally, I want to encourage any effort in promoting libre creative
> software,
> but I add my voices in the "there is already too many separated efforts,
> lets
> join force instead of creating new".*
> ---> Totally agree with that. What I'm doing wrong to let you think that
> LGA is not about joining forces ?
>
> For the Libre graphics magazine, I do agree too, but it will have a far
> much lesser diffusion than a website. I don't understand why peoples agree
> on the magazine, and not on the website, despite they share parts on the
> same objectives (promoting and demonstrating libre graphics tools).
> Am I stupid ?
>

In the eyes of many people on this list we are already into an
"association". We belong to this community, we work together, we communicate
a lot, we have means to do this. This is what most people would call an
association !

You have more ideas, which is great ! You think we should embrace more
topics that are not covered yet, okay !

But again, this can all be done going in the same flow we have already. No
need to reinvent the wheel. Just push in the same direction. Add some more
bits here and there. If we need a more structured association, we have
already a discussion on the wiki about this and a few incredibly rich
threads on the Creates Mailing List. Already, there is a big work only
gathering together those ideas and make them come alive...

I think that so far it’s only a matter of communication. I have been
participating in the BoF at LGM with you. I am all for a more structured
association. We have announced together at LGM that we’d be doing it
quickly. The only thing we should do now is do it.

Some more notes.

In 2007 I have put together a non-profit to help organise LGM as I rapidly
discovered that in order to get some local sponsorship (especially from the
government). Since then, this non-profit has been left there, unused. I
haven’t looked after this association for years. I didn’t use it in 2009
because it was too much for me to handle the accounting so I preferred to
leave that to the GNOME Foundation. Today, the assocation named "Quebec
Association for the Development and Promotion of Free Software" is reviving
because we have a big project going on with the Francophonie and we will be
handling funds. I have even opened an account in euros so we don’t need to
convert the funds and we thus avoid a lot of stress with the handling of
international funding, something that is even better than what the GNOME
Foundation can offer us, in some way. It would be as easy — and even easier
— to open an account in US dollars. But all this have a cost in both money
and time. An account at the bank cost a little bit of money. And we have to
provide some papers each year to the government, and we need a proper
accounting...

So there is an association which I run and which has no website !
Nonetheless it works and with this new project with OIF it will be running
for months from now. I even have plans to use it next year for LGM —
although I am still not sure of that but I am thinking of that...

All this to say that if you think we need a better / nicer


> I feel that the best way to convince is to start working on it.
> So, let's go.
>
> Have a nice day,
> --yagraph
>
>
> 2010/8/16 a.l.e 
>
> hi ginger,
>>
>> > > So we could create a magazine (available as PDF, and printed to
>> > > people who want a paper edition, actu

Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Cyrille Berger wrote:

> So we could create a magazine (available as PDF, and printed to people who
> want a paper edition, actually someone already started such a project, I think
> ?), or a booklet that could be send as "commercial" to companies, a book
> (either tutorial, or a "story" book with illustration created with our
> software).

I had the magazine idea a year ago: as a concept, few layout ideas and
content plan for a couple of issues. But never had a team to support
it and didn't see a way to make it financially rewarding. Ginger and
Ricardo picked the idea and then Libre Graphics Magazine #0 was done
for LGM this year. In three days. Amazing job they did, by the way. I
wonder if they intend to work further on it.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

to Cyrille Berger :

*While lgw does not cover the LGA purpose, it matches the lga website. To be
honest, from what I have understood, lga = lgw + create.*
---> In my view, lga > lgw + create, to another public (users) and other
aims (demonstrate + explain +teach ...). LGW is excellent for news and
Create is excellent for collaboration between projects, but there are others
topics to be covered.
Can I mess up the create wiki and change it's aim without starting a flame
war ? If I can, I do agree with you that there is no need for another
website.


*If people thinks create does not works very well, I fail to see how having
an "association" is
going to magically solve any problem. Especially, considering that what
create
lack is mostly of animation.
Also, creating an association with no revenue seems to be a lot of
bureaucratic work. In many countries, the main point of registering an
association is to get access to a bank account.*
---> to have a bank account in the future, you have to start by creating an
association, not the opposite way. It will allow us to start the project and
start to share some means. Furthermore, according to a.l.e, creating an
association in Switzerland is really simple and there is no bureaucratic
work.


*Finally, I want to encourage any effort in promoting libre creative
software,
but I add my voices in the "there is already too many separated efforts,
lets
join force instead of creating new".*
---> Totally agree with that. What I'm doing wrong to let you think that LGA
is not about joining forces ?

For the Libre graphics magazine, I do agree too, but it will have a far much
lesser diffusion than a website. I don't understand why peoples agree on the
magazine, and not on the website, despite they share parts on the same
objectives (promoting and demonstrating libre graphics tools).
Am I stupid ?

I feel that the best way to convince is to start working on it.
So, let's go.

Have a nice day,
--yagraph


2010/8/16 a.l.e 

> hi ginger,
>
> > > So we could create a magazine (available as PDF, and printed to
> > > people who want a paper edition, actually someone already started
> > > such a project, I think
> > > ?), or a booklet that could be send as "commercial" to companies, a
> > > book (either tutorial, or a "story" book with illustration created
> > > with our software).
> > > All done with free software. Then you can show the results to
> > > professional, and impress them. When I was a student, I
> > > participated in editing a student weekly newspaper, we managed to
> > > print in four colors using a two cylinders rotary printer, the
> > > seller was so surprised by the result that you could get
> > > with the machine, that he sent a few samples of our journal to the
> > > direction
> > > in Japan. This little story shows that if you do interesting
> > > things, you will
> > > get attention.
> > > There is already an impressive pool of artists using our software,
> > > lets pull
> > > them together to create material that display the power of our
> > > tools.
> > >
> >
> > A great big +1 on the magazine. Just before LGM, Ricardo, Ana, Femke,
> > a.l.e. and I pulled together Libre Graphics Magazine #0. Since then,
> > I've been thinking seriously (as I plan workshops and talks for
> > artists and design students) about the value of doing such a magazine
> > more frequently. I think it would be a great vehicle around which to
> > build some user community, as well as a nice, professional public
> > show of what F/LOSS graphics software can do.
> >
> > So I'm game to pick up where we left off on the magazine, and willing
> > to add some editorial weight to the effort. If anyone else is
> > interested in working on it too, all the better.
>
> i'd like to produce a second number while being at http://froscomp.org .
> (mid september)
>
> the idea is to have the content mostly produced in advanced and having
> a small crew doing the magazine live at our booth.
>
> i'm not sure i will have founds to print it, so it may just be a PDF to
> put on the web.
>
> what do you think about it?
>
> could you image to have an active role even if not personally present?
> (no, i certainly won't have the budget to fly you to zurich! :-)
>
>
> ciao
> a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[a.l.e]

hi ginger,

> > So we could create a magazine (available as PDF, and printed to
> > people who want a paper edition, actually someone already started
> > such a project, I think
> > ?), or a booklet that could be send as "commercial" to companies, a
> > book (either tutorial, or a "story" book with illustration created
> > with our software).
> > All done with free software. Then you can show the results to
> > professional, and impress them. When I was a student, I
> > participated in editing a student weekly newspaper, we managed to
> > print in four colors using a two cylinders rotary printer, the
> > seller was so surprised by the result that you could get
> > with the machine, that he sent a few samples of our journal to the
> > direction
> > in Japan. This little story shows that if you do interesting
> > things, you will
> > get attention.
> > There is already an impressive pool of artists using our software,
> > lets pull
> > them together to create material that display the power of our
> > tools.
> >
> 
> A great big +1 on the magazine. Just before LGM, Ricardo, Ana, Femke,
> a.l.e. and I pulled together Libre Graphics Magazine #0. Since then,
> I've been thinking seriously (as I plan workshops and talks for
> artists and design students) about the value of doing such a magazine
> more frequently. I think it would be a great vehicle around which to
> build some user community, as well as a nice, professional public
> show of what F/LOSS graphics software can do.
> 
> So I'm game to pick up where we left off on the magazine, and willing
> to add some editorial weight to the effort. If anyone else is
> interested in working on it too, all the better.

i'd like to produce a second number while being at http://froscomp.org .
(mid september)

the idea is to have the content mostly produced in advanced and having
a small crew doing the magazine live at our booth.

i'm not sure i will have founds to print it, so it may just be a PDF to
put on the web.

what do you think about it?

could you image to have an active role even if not personally present?
(no, i certainly won't have the budget to fly you to zurich! :-)


ciao
a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/15 j...@rejon.org 

> http://create.freedesktop.org/wiki/Libre_Graphics_Magazine
>

+ 1

Louis


>
> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:26 AM, ginger coons 
> wrote:
> >
> >> So we could create a magazine (available as PDF, and printed to people
> who
> >> want a paper edition, actually someone already started such a project, I
> >> think
> >> ?), or a booklet that could be send as "commercial" to companies, a book
> >> (either tutorial, or a "story" book with illustration created with our
> >> software).
> >> All done with free software. Then you can show the results to
> >> professional,
> >> and impress them. When I was a student, I participated in editing a
> >> student
> >> weekly newspaper, we managed to print in four colors using a two
> cylinders
> >> rotary printer, the seller was so surprised by the result that you could
> >> get
> >> with the machine, that he sent a few samples of our journal to the
> >> direction
> >> in Japan. This little story shows that if you do interesting things, you
> >> will
> >> get attention.
> >> There is already an impressive pool of artists using our software, lets
> >> pull
> >> them together to create material that display the power of our tools.
> >
> > A great big +1 on the magazine. Just before LGM, Ricardo, Ana, Femke,
> a.l.e.
> > and I pulled together Libre Graphics Magazine #0. Since then, I've been
> > thinking seriously (as I plan workshops and talks for artists and design
> > students) about the value of doing such a magazine more frequently. I
> think
> > it would be a great vehicle around which to build some user community, as
> > well as a nice, professional public show of what F/LOSS graphics software
> > can do.
> >
> > So I'm game to pick up where we left off on the magazine, and willing to
> add
> > some editorial weight to the effort. If anyone else is interested in
> working
> > on it too, all the better.
> >
> > --
> > ginger "all-lower-case" coons
> > adaptstudio.ca
> > 647.865.7757 (Toronto)
> > 514.213.1318 (Montreal)
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jon Phillips
> http://rejon.org/
> http://fabricatorz.com/
> http://status.net/
> http://rejon.status.net + skype: kidproto
> +1.415.830.3884 (sf/global)
> +86.187.1003.9974 (china)
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[j...@rejon.org]

http://create.freedesktop.org/wiki/Libre_Graphics_Magazine

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:26 AM, ginger coons  wrote:
>
>> So we could create a magazine (available as PDF, and printed to people who
>> want a paper edition, actually someone already started such a project, I
>> think
>> ?), or a booklet that could be send as "commercial" to companies, a book
>> (either tutorial, or a "story" book with illustration created with our
>> software).
>> All done with free software. Then you can show the results to
>> professional,
>> and impress them. When I was a student, I participated in editing a
>> student
>> weekly newspaper, we managed to print in four colors using a two cylinders
>> rotary printer, the seller was so surprised by the result that you could
>> get
>> with the machine, that he sent a few samples of our journal to the
>> direction
>> in Japan. This little story shows that if you do interesting things, you
>> will
>> get attention.
>> There is already an impressive pool of artists using our software, lets
>> pull
>> them together to create material that display the power of our tools.
>
> A great big +1 on the magazine. Just before LGM, Ricardo, Ana, Femke, a.l.e.
> and I pulled together Libre Graphics Magazine #0. Since then, I've been
> thinking seriously (as I plan workshops and talks for artists and design
> students) about the value of doing such a magazine more frequently. I think
> it would be a great vehicle around which to build some user community, as
> well as a nice, professional public show of what F/LOSS graphics software
> can do.
>
> So I'm game to pick up where we left off on the magazine, and willing to add
> some editorial weight to the effort. If anyone else is interested in working
> on it too, all the better.
>
> --
> ginger "all-lower-case" coons
> adaptstudio.ca
> 647.865.7757 (Toronto)
> 514.213.1318 (Montreal)
>
> ___
> CREATE mailing list
> CREATE@lists.freedesktop.org
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/create
>
>



-- 
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http://fabricatorz.com/
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http://rejon.status.net + skype: kidproto
+1.415.830.3884 (sf/global)
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[ginger coons]

> So we could create a magazine (available as PDF, and printed to people who
> want a paper edition, actually someone already started such a project, I
> think
> ?), or a booklet that could be send as "commercial" to companies, a book
> (either tutorial, or a "story" book with illustration created with our
> software).
> All done with free software. Then you can show the results to professional,
> and impress them. When I was a student, I participated in editing a student
> weekly newspaper, we managed to print in four colors using a two cylinders
> rotary printer, the seller was so surprised by the result that you could
> get
> with the machine, that he sent a few samples of our journal to the
> direction
> in Japan. This little story shows that if you do interesting things, you
> will
> get attention.
> There is already an impressive pool of artists using our software, lets
> pull
> them together to create material that display the power of our tools.
>

A great big +1 on the magazine. Just before LGM, Ricardo, Ana, Femke, a.l.e.
and I pulled together Libre Graphics Magazine #0. Since then, I've been
thinking seriously (as I plan workshops and talks for artists and design
students) about the value of doing such a magazine more frequently. I think
it would be a great vehicle around which to build some user community, as
well as a nice, professional public show of what F/LOSS graphics software
can do.

So I'm game to pick up where we left off on the magazine, and willing to add
some editorial weight to the effort. If anyone else is interested in working
on it too, all the better.

-- 
ginger "all-lower-case" coons
adaptstudio.ca
647.865.7757 (Toronto)
514.213.1318 (Montreal)
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[j...@rejon.org]

Amen brother. +1

On Aug 15, 2010 10:42 PM, "Cyrille Berger"  wrote:
> On Sunday 08 August 2010, Camille Bissuel wrote:
>> The whole purpose of the LGA proposition is collaboration between
projects.
>> It's not "a ring to rule them all" neither.
> On a side note, it is exactly what freedesktop is about.
>
> The only thing that can't work under freedesktop is the certification
thing.
>
>> The Create wiki is very useful for "internal" work. But it's not for
users.
> But very good for collaboration between projects :D
>
>> Other websites, including http://libregraphicsworld.org, aren't aimed to
>> address the LGA purpose, they are too specific. I have time to build such
a
>> website, so it's not a waste of time for other projects.
>
> While lgw does not cover the LGA purpose, it matches the lga website. To
be
> honest, from what I have understood, lga = lgw + create. If people thinks
> create does not works very well, I fail to see how having an "association"
is
> going to magically solve any problem. Especially, considering that what
create
> lack is mostly of animation.
>
> Also, creating an association with no revenue seems to be a lot of
> bureaucratic work. In many countries, the main point of registering an
> association is to get access to a bank account.
>
> Finally, I want to encourage any effort in promoting libre creative
software,
> but I add my voices in the "there is already too many separated efforts,
lets
> join force instead of creating new".
>
> Or alternatively, lets create something really new.
>
> I think the success of the blender foundation, both movies and/or tutorial
dvd
> (like [1]) could give us ideas.
> So we could create a magazine (available as PDF, and printed to people who

> want a paper edition, actually someone already started such a project, I
think
> ?), or a booklet that could be send as "commercial" to companies, a book
> (either tutorial, or a "story" book with illustration created with our
> software).
> All done with free software. Then you can show the results to
professional,
> and impress them. When I was a student, I participated in editing a
student
> weekly newspaper, we managed to print in four colors using a two cylinders

> rotary printer, the seller was so surprised by the result that you could
get
> with the machine, that he sent a few samples of our journal to the
direction
> in Japan. This little story shows that if you do interesting things, you
will
> get attention.
> There is already an impressive pool of artists using our software, lets
pull
> them together to create material that display the power of our tools. And
this
> require someone with energy and time to coordinate, and would bring (in my

> opinion) more added value, that yet-an-other website.
>
> [1] http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/product_info_n.php?products_id=122
>
> --
> Cyrille Berger
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Cyrille Berger]

On Sunday 08 August 2010, Camille Bissuel wrote:
> The whole purpose of the LGA proposition is collaboration between projects.
> It's not "a ring to rule them all" neither.
On a side note, it is exactly what freedesktop is about.

The only thing that can't work under freedesktop is the certification thing.

> The Create wiki is very useful for "internal" work. But it's not for users.
But very good for collaboration between projects :D

> Other websites, including http://libregraphicsworld.org, aren't aimed to
> address the LGA purpose, they are too specific. I have time to build such a
> website, so it's not a waste of time for other projects.

While lgw does not cover the LGA purpose, it matches the lga website. To be 
honest, from what I have understood, lga = lgw + create. If people thinks 
create does not works very well, I fail to see how having an "association" is 
going to magically solve any problem. Especially, considering that what create 
lack is mostly of animation.

Also, creating an association with no revenue seems to be a lot of 
bureaucratic work. In many countries, the main point of registering an 
association is to get access to a bank account.

Finally, I want to encourage any effort in promoting libre creative software, 
but I add my voices in the "there is already too many separated efforts, lets 
join force instead of creating new".

Or alternatively, lets create something really new.

I think the success of the blender foundation, both movies and/or tutorial dvd 
(like [1]) could give us ideas.
So we could create a magazine (available as PDF, and printed to people who 
want a paper edition, actually someone already started such a project, I think 
?), or a booklet that could be send as "commercial" to companies, a book 
(either tutorial, or a "story" book with illustration created with our 
software).
All done with free software. Then you can show the results to professional, 
and impress them. When I was a student, I participated in editing a student 
weekly newspaper, we managed to print in four colors using a two cylinders 
rotary printer, the seller was so surprised by the result that you could get 
with the machine, that he sent a few samples of our journal to the direction 
in Japan. This little story shows that if you do interesting things, you will 
get attention.
There is already an impressive pool of artists using our software, lets pull 
them together to create material that display the power of our tools. And this 
require someone with energy and time to coordinate, and would bring (in my 
opinion) more added value, that yet-an-other website.

[1] http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/product_info_n.php?products_id=122

-- 
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[j...@rejon.org]

This whole thread...what's the addage about painting a bikeshed? It
underscores my point about distractions from accomplishing a mission. Are we
here to make sites or a Foundation, both often covers for trying to raise
money to raise money, or are we trying to get creative apps to work together
better and build a flourishing creative community?

Also, I will point out the irony that all of our communication happens on
the create list and wiki.

What's the point again? Or rather where is the concrete realidad to this
thread?

Ok, im going to go back to getting LGM day at Foss.asia lined up, LGM book,
and then get sponsors for both...

On Aug 13, 2010 5:54 AM, "Yuval Levy"  wrote:
> On August 12, 2010 01:10:21 pm Camille Bissuel wrote:
>> On Drupal, my website (www.yagraph.org) is based on Drupal 6, and I never
>> succeeded to set up i18n correctly despites my efforts (I gived up).
Maybe
>> I can try again...
>> Can you be more explicit on the Drupal tools ?
>
> these notes are unusually scant, even for my standards:
>
> # In Admin > Site Building > Modules enable the optional core modules
Content
> translation, Locale, Path.
> # In Admin > Settings > Language set up the languages. Click on Add to add

> them, set their priorities with Weight (smaller = higher prio), then
configure
> to Path prefix with language fallback.
> # In Admin > Content > Types, enable Multilingual support with translation

> under Workflow Settings. Repeat for all content types that you want to
> translate.
> # Enter new content to be translated and define its language. Language
neutral
> content will not be set for translation
> # In Admin > Build > Block enable the language switcher block
> # To set the front page per language, edit the node for the home page by
> setting the URL path to something like "home". Repeat that on every home
page
> in every language. Then in Admin > Settings > Site Information set the
Default
> front page to "home". Yo can replace "home" with any unique URL name.
> # in User Management -> Permissions grant permissions to administer
languages,
> translate menus, translate content (if you want the functionality to be
user
> accessible)
> # add the following block to settings.php
>
> $conf['i18n_variables'] = array(
> // Site name, slogan, mission, etc..
> 'site_name',
> 'site_slogan',
> 'site_mission',
> 'site_footer',
> 'anonymous',
> // Different front page for each language
> 'site_frontpage',
> // Primary and secondary links
> 'menu_primary_links_source',
> 'menu_secondary_links_source',
> // Contact form information
> 'contact_form_information',
> );
>
> References:
> * http://drupal.org/node/313272
> * http://drupal-translation.com/
>
> this was February 2009, I am sorry I can't be more explicit/helpful than
this.
>
> I still think that the wheel is being reinvented too often. What's wrong
with
> the create wiki (other than the domain name, on which I agree with Ale?)
>
> Jon exposed the redundancy of web efforts pretty well a few days ago and I

> agree with most of what he wrote. The difficulty is not to set up a
website,
> it is to keep it running and not looking stale. Another website will just
> spread the resources even more thin. But if you feel the urge to express
> yourself in a website, go ahead. It's your time / effort.
>
> I don't agree with Jon's statements on the broader scope beyond graphics.
IMO
> LG should yes be flexible about its boundaries and welcome related project

> (e.g. in the audio or video fields) when the opportunity arise, but it
should
> first and foremost stay focused on its core (graphics) mission to avoid
> spreading the resources too thin or diluting the conference too much.
>
> My 2 (non-participating) cents
> Yuv
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 8/13/10, Yuval Levy wrote:

> I don't agree with Jon's statements on the broader scope beyond graphics.
> IMO LG should yes be flexible about its boundaries and welcome related
> project > (e.g. in the audio or video fields) when the opportunity arise, but 
> it
> should first and foremost stay focused on its core (graphics) mission to
> avoid spreading the resources too thin or diluting the conference too much.

IIRC Jon's point was about CREATE, not LG. And CREATE is not about
just graphics.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Yuval Levy]

On August 12, 2010 01:10:21 pm Camille Bissuel wrote:
> On Drupal, my website (www.yagraph.org) is based on Drupal 6, and I never
> succeeded to set up i18n correctly despites my efforts (I gived up). Maybe
> I can try again...
> Can you be more explicit on the Drupal tools ?

these notes are unusually scant, even for my standards:

#  In Admin > Site Building > Modules enable the optional core modules Content 
translation, Locale, Path.
# In Admin > Settings > Language set up the languages. Click on Add to add 
them, set their priorities with Weight (smaller = higher prio), then configure 
to Path prefix with language fallback.
# In Admin > Content > Types, enable Multilingual support with translation 
under Workflow Settings. Repeat for all content types that you want to 
translate.
# Enter new content to be translated and define its language. Language neutral 
content will not be set for translation
# In Admin > Build > Block enable the language switcher block
# To set the front page per language, edit the node for the home page by 
setting the URL path to something like "home". Repeat that on every home page 
in every language. Then in Admin > Settings > Site Information set the Default 
front page to "home". Yo can replace "home" with any unique URL name.
# in User Management -> Permissions grant permissions to administer languages, 
translate menus, translate content (if you want the functionality to be user 
accessible) 
#  add the following block to settings.php 

$conf['i18n_variables'] = array(
  // Site name, slogan, mission, etc..
  'site_name',
  'site_slogan',
  'site_mission',
  'site_footer',
  'anonymous',
  // Different front page for each language
  'site_frontpage',
  // Primary and secondary links
  'menu_primary_links_source',
  'menu_secondary_links_source',
  // Contact form information
  'contact_form_information',
);

References:
* http://drupal.org/node/313272
* http://drupal-translation.com/

this was February 2009, I am sorry I can't be more explicit/helpful than this.

I still think that the wheel is being reinvented too often.  What's wrong with 
the create wiki (other than the domain name, on which I agree with Ale?)

Jon exposed the redundancy of web efforts pretty well a few days ago and I 
agree with most of what he wrote.  The difficulty is not to set up a website, 
it is to keep it running and not looking stale.  Another website will just 
spread the resources even more thin.  But if you feel the urge to express 
yourself in a website, go ahead.  It's your time / effort.

I don't agree with Jon's statements on the broader scope beyond graphics.  IMO 
LG should yes be flexible about its boundaries and welcome related project 
(e.g. in the audio or video fields) when the opportunity arise, but it should 
first and foremost stay focused on its core (graphics) mission to avoid 
spreading the resources too thin or diluting the conference too much.

My 2 (non-participating) cents
Yuv
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

Hi,

Honnestly, Spip is good on i18n... but it's very old. At least templating is
a real mess, and I often experience caching problems with spip websites.
I'm very interested in Anwiki... wiki + i18n optimisation seem to be what we
need. If we consider the Aïki framework wich is quite young, why not Anwiki
?

On Drupal, my website (www.yagraph.org) is based on Drupal 6, and I never
succeeded to set up i18n correctly despites my efforts (I gived up). Maybe I
can try again...
Can you be more explicit on the Drupal tools ?

More and more, It seem that a "cms-oriented" wiki is a good idea...
Mediawiki is well know and robust, but I'd like to know more an Anwiki.

In my point of view, intersting candidates so far are Mediawiki, Anwiki,
Aïki and maybe Wordpress.

Going on...
-- yagraph



2010/8/12 Yuval Levy 

> On August 12, 2010 05:18:01 am a.l.e wrote:
> > what i've read should be ok for multilingual sites is spip. has anybody
> > something against it?
>
> I don't know spip but I have done extensive research about CMS for
> multilingual sites a couple of years ago and the best one IMHO was Drupal
> (v6).
>
> "multilingual" is often interpreted in two different ways: the *silos
> approach* and the *atomic approach*.
>
> The silos approach is the more common.  The underlying assumption is that a
> user will enter the site in one language and stay in that language.  All
> there
> is to multilinguism are links to the entry point of the website in the
> different languages.  This has negative effects on maintenance (each
> language
> site tend to get a life of their own, with some being more up to date than
> others) and on search.  Especially when the subject matter has specialist
> terms in a particular language (English in our case), alternative language
> content tend to be underrepresented in search results.
>
> The atomic approach is technically more demanding, but fixes the above
> mentioned search problem.  Ideally translation/language links are made at
> the
> individual content element level;  translators are helped by a list of yet
> to
> be translated content; there is a fall-back sequence toward the front end
> so
> that users navigating the site in a language that is not completely up to
> date
> get to seamlessly fall back to another language.
>
> I see the atomic approach on Wikipedia ([0] vs. [1], see the list of
> languages
> on the right which seems to be dynamically generated depending on whether
> the
> content is available in that language or not) but I do not know how this is
> implemented in the MediaWiki software.
>
> Back then, I found that Drupal offered all the necessary tools to manage a
> multi-language website with atomic approach.
>
> HTH
> Yuv
>
> [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkscape
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribus
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Yuval Levy]

On August 12, 2010 05:18:01 am a.l.e wrote:
> what i've read should be ok for multilingual sites is spip. has anybody
> something against it?

I don't know spip but I have done extensive research about CMS for 
multilingual sites a couple of years ago and the best one IMHO was Drupal 
(v6).

"multilingual" is often interpreted in two different ways: the *silos 
approach* and the *atomic approach*.

The silos approach is the more common.  The underlying assumption is that a 
user will enter the site in one language and stay in that language.  All there 
is to multilinguism are links to the entry point of the website in the 
different languages.  This has negative effects on maintenance (each language 
site tend to get a life of their own, with some being more up to date than 
others) and on search.  Especially when the subject matter has specialist 
terms in a particular language (English in our case), alternative language 
content tend to be underrepresented in search results.

The atomic approach is technically more demanding, but fixes the above 
mentioned search problem.  Ideally translation/language links are made at the 
individual content element level;  translators are helped by a list of yet to 
be translated content; there is a fall-back sequence toward the front end so 
that users navigating the site in a language that is not completely up to date 
get to seamlessly fall back to another language.

I see the atomic approach on Wikipedia ([0] vs. [1], see the list of languages 
on the right which seems to be dynamically generated depending on whether the 
content is available in that language or not) but I do not know how this is 
implemented in the MediaWiki software.

Back then, I found that Drupal offered all the necessary tools to manage a 
multi-language website with atomic approach.

HTH
Yuv

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkscape 
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribus
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[a.l.e]

à propos website:

the best idea for a multilingual/ strucutre wiki or cms is anwiki. it's
a pity that is not mature and i can't suggest it for a new website. 
too many things that do not work (yet) as the user would expect it.

what i've read should be ok for multilingual sites is spip. has anybody
something against it?

ciao
a.l.e

> Oo, I didn't even know graphicsplanet.org ...
> So, ok, It's one more planet...
> I don't know what to do. Maybe we can just get the graphicsplanet.org
> feed and display it.
> As a maintainer, Alexandre, do you think graphicsplanet.org can
> evolve to work with libre-graphics.org ?
> 
> Thanks Jon for the Mediawiki RSS plugin.
> So mediawiki is a serious candidate. So on, to add content, a wiki is
> an easier tool for most contributors.
> I don't want to keep the wiki visual style, but we can do like the
> F-spot website.
> 
> So, Aïki, Mediawiki, Wordpress ?
> 
> Thanks for your comments.
> --yagraph
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2010/8/8 j...@rejon.org 
> 
> > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Camille Bissuel
> >  wrote:
> > > That's not a bad idea, but Is Mediawiki have RSS support
> > > (diffusion + aggregation ) ?
> > > It does not seem to...
> > >
> > You can bend mediawiki to do many things like this with plugins :)
> >
> > http://jimbojw.com/wiki/index.php?title=WikiArticleFeeds_Extension
> >
> > and there are many more :)
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jon Phillips
> > http://rejon.org/
> > http://fabricatorz.com/
> > http://status.net/
> > http://rejon.status.net + skype: kidproto
> > +1.415.830.3884 (sf/global)
> > +86.187.1003.9974 (china)
> >
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Louis Desjardins]

2010/8/9 Camille Bissuel 

> Oo, I didn't even know graphicsplanet.org ...
> So, ok, It's one more planet...
> I don't know what to do. Maybe we can just get the graphicsplanet.org feed
> and display it.
> As a maintainer, Alexandre, do you think graphicsplanet.org can evolve to
> work with libre-graphics.org ?
>
> Thanks Jon for the Mediawiki RSS plugin.
> So mediawiki is a serious candidate. So on, to add content, a wiki is an
> easier tool for most contributors.
>

+1


> I don't want to keep the wiki visual style, but we can do like the F-spot
> website.
>
> So, Aïki, Mediawiki, Wordpress ?
>
> Thanks for your comments.
> --yagraph
>
>
>
>
> 2010/8/8 j...@rejon.org 
>
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Camille Bissuel 
>> wrote:
>> > That's not a bad idea, but Is Mediawiki have RSS support (diffusion +
>> > aggregation ) ?
>> > It does not seem to...
>> >
>> You can bend mediawiki to do many things like this with plugins :)
>>
>> http://jimbojw.com/wiki/index.php?title=WikiArticleFeeds_Extension
>>
>> and there are many more :)
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jon Phillips
>> http://rejon.org/
>> http://fabricatorz.com/
>> http://status.net/
>> http://rejon.status.net + skype: kidproto
>> +1.415.830.3884 (sf/global)
>> +86.187.1003.9974 (china)
>>
>
>
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

Oo, I didn't even know graphicsplanet.org ...
So, ok, It's one more planet...
I don't know what to do. Maybe we can just get the graphicsplanet.org feed
and display it.
As a maintainer, Alexandre, do you think graphicsplanet.org can evolve to
work with libre-graphics.org ?

Thanks Jon for the Mediawiki RSS plugin.
So mediawiki is a serious candidate. So on, to add content, a wiki is an
easier tool for most contributors.
I don't want to keep the wiki visual style, but we can do like the F-spot
website.

So, Aïki, Mediawiki, Wordpress ?

Thanks for your comments.
--yagraph




2010/8/8 j...@rejon.org 

> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Camille Bissuel 
> wrote:
> > That's not a bad idea, but Is Mediawiki have RSS support (diffusion +
> > aggregation ) ?
> > It does not seem to...
> >
> You can bend mediawiki to do many things like this with plugins :)
>
> http://jimbojw.com/wiki/index.php?title=WikiArticleFeeds_Extension
>
> and there are many more :)
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> --
> Jon Phillips
> http://rejon.org/
> http://fabricatorz.com/
> http://status.net/
> http://rejon.status.net + skype: kidproto
> +1.415.830.3884 (sf/global)
> +86.187.1003.9974 (china)
>
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[j...@rejon.org]

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Camille Bissuel  wrote:
> That's not a bad idea, but Is Mediawiki have RSS support (diffusion +
> aggregation ) ?
> It does not seem to...
>
You can bend mediawiki to do many things like this with plugins :)

http://jimbojw.com/wiki/index.php?title=WikiArticleFeeds_Extension

and there are many more :)

Jon



-- 
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 8/8/10, Camille Bissuel wrote:
> That's not a bad idea, but Is Mediawiki have RSS support (diffusion +
> aggregation ) ?

The only RSS for Mediawiki I ever used was for recent changes. Never
wondered if it can generate other feeds.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 8/8/10, Gregory Pittman wrote:

> I think maybe the Create site could work if it had a different/better
> portal, where what's there now could be accessed from it, but you could
> have other directions to go from that portal.

There is another thing I'm quite concerned with: the blogs aggregator.

Right now we have two planets running simultaneously and started by
two people at more or less the same time (create's one and
graphicsplanet.org), and I'm quilty of having supported both (it was
partly because getting SSH access on new fd.o machine didn't work back
in time).

I don't really know how many people read each: neither have feedburner
based RSS, so it's hard to tell. But I have a feeling that two planets
is an overkill.

>From maintenance point of view graphicsplanet.org is a successor: it
has two maintainers (muks and me) and relies on a newer engine.
CREATE's planet is unmaintained AFAIK and uses old engine. OTOH from
integration POV create's planet is better, if you intend to build new
stuff on top of create. And thus I'm back to square one :-/

What do you think?

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

That's not a bad idea, but Is Mediawiki have RSS support (diffusion +
aggregation ) ?
It does not seem to...

Cheers,
--yagraph


2010/8/8 Alexandre Prokoudine 

> On 8/8/10, Gregory Pittman wrote:
>
> > I think maybe the Create site could work if it had a different/better
> > portal, where what's there now could be accessed from it, but you could
> > have other directions to go from that portal.
> >
> > In essence, I'm just talking about a new front page...
>
> It's a sensible idea. Mediawiki has a solid i18n implementation and
> you can easily handle translations (wikipedia relies on LANG.
> wikipedia.org though). You can also make it look like a nice website
> (e.g. f-spot.org), not just like wiki with a default theme. It could
> just work.
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 8/8/10, Gregory Pittman wrote:

> I think maybe the Create site could work if it had a different/better
> portal, where what's there now could be accessed from it, but you could
> have other directions to go from that portal.
>
> In essence, I'm just talking about a new front page...

It's a sensible idea. Mediawiki has a solid i18n implementation and
you can easily handle translations (wikipedia relies on LANG.
wikipedia.org though). You can also make it look like a nice website
(e.g. f-spot.org), not just like wiki with a default theme. It could
just work.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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[CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Gregory Pittman]

 Original Message 
Subject:Re: [CREATE] [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website
Date:   Sun, 08 Aug 2010 11:07:58 -0400
From:   Gregory Pittman 
To: j...@rejon.org 



 On 08/08/2010 05:38 AM, j...@rejon.org wrote:


 Consolidation might not be the solution :) But, I'm all for knowing
 when things are end of life. If Create has served its purpose to be a
 host, then run towards libre-graphics.org fast and hard. But, don't
 worry too much about sunk costs like past websites and consolidation.
 Rather, merge what is necessary.

 LGM is great because it has a good focus on culture and creativity, in
 addition to development and users.

I'm intentionally going back a few layers in the to and fro of the
conversation.

I think maybe the Create site could work if it had a different/better
portal, where what's there now could be accessed from it, but you could
have other directions to go from that portal.

In essence, I'm just talking about a new front page...

Greg

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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Camille Bissuel]

Hi all,

I do not think that anyone wants to kill anyone project.
The whole purpose of the LGA proposition is collaboration between projects.
It's not "a ring to rule them all" neither.

Let's think of it from an user point of view. What are these tools and what
can I do with them ? How can I have information on current projects and
relations between them ? How can I found a teacher ? How can I support a
project or donate ?
We can't answer theses questions without a portal website. As a
professional, it took me almost 1 year of daily survey to know all current
interesting websites.

The Create wiki is very useful for "internal" work. But it's not for users.
Other websites, including http://libregraphicsworld.org, aren't aimed to
address the LGA purpose, they are too specific. I have time to build such a
website, so it's not a waste of time for other projects.

One more time, it's not meant to trust others website content. it's a
portal, a link directory, an aggregation platform... content is out.

Aim is to say to users, institution, professionals that yes, we can
collaborate at an international level, yes we share ideas about our tools,
yes we have viable solutions, and yes, we can do some support and receive
founds in a decentralized way.
I'm tired to be considered unprofessional because I use free softwares.

So, please stop fire, and start collaboration.

Jon, I'm also interested to know more on internationalization in the Aïki
framework, it sounds good, and I'm thinking seriously to use it.
Thanks for all your comments by the way.

--yagraph


2010/8/8 a.l.e 

> hi robert,
>
> > >  feel free to feel offended.
> > >
> >
> > this is not acceptable.
> > jon clearly adressed the way you proposed to "kill" one of his
> > projects. this sounded somewhat disrespectful in my ears, too.
>
> i don't really want to have a lengthy discussion on this topic.
>
> i have never proposed to kill any of jon's projects. period.
>
> if you look at my mail i never ever mention the term "project".
>
> i was only talking about websites and domain names.
>
> if anybody is attached to the url create.freedesktop.org and to the
> current form of that website, yes, i've stepped on his/her toes.
> sorry, but i really have the feeling that we have to get more user friendly
> on that regard.
> (btw, i have nothing against a create.libre-graphics.org... but i think one
> of the jon sorrows was that we have too many websites and urls.)
>
> if you have the feeling that i was discussing about the wrong topics, i'll
> step out of the discussion. no problem.
>
> if you have the feeling that i should use a less direct language, i'll do
> it.
>
> but, please, don't cite me for things i have not said (and i've already
> pointed out that i didn't meant to say it).
>
>
> ciao
> a.l.e
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Re: [CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[a.l.e]

hi robert,

> >  feel free to feel offended.
> >
> 
> this is not acceptable.
> jon clearly adressed the way you proposed to "kill" one of his
> projects. this sounded somewhat disrespectful in my ears, too.

i don't really want to have a lengthy discussion on this topic.

i have never proposed to kill any of jon's projects. period.

if you look at my mail i never ever mention the term "project".

i was only talking about websites and domain names.

if anybody is attached to the url create.freedesktop.org and to the current 
form of that website, yes, i've stepped on his/her toes.
sorry, but i really have the feeling that we have to get more user friendly on 
that regard.
(btw, i have nothing against a create.libre-graphics.org... but i think one of 
the jon sorrows was that we have too many websites and urls.)

if you have the feeling that i was discussing about the wrong topics, i'll step 
out of the discussion. no problem.

if you have the feeling that i should use a less direct language, i'll do it.

but, please, don't cite me for things i have not said (and i've already pointed 
out that i didn't meant to say it).


ciao
a.l.e
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[CREATE] Fwd: Re: [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website

[Robert Martinez]

 Original Message 
Subject:Re: [CREATE] [LGF-LGA] Ok, let's start with a website
Date:   Sun, 08 Aug 2010 12:24:23 +0200
From:   Robert Martinez 
To: a.l.e 



On 08/08/2010 12:05 PM, a.l.e wrote:

 hi jon



 On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 1:01 AM, a.l.e   wrote:


 hi,



 Hi, I'm going to bring this up one last time. We have
 http://create.freedesktop.org, http://libregraphicsmeeting.org,
 http://libregraphicsworld.org, and http://libregraphicsday.org.

 Do we really need another website? Do we really have enough people
 to hack on this, keep it afloat and more? Also, while Libre
 Graphics Meeting has been a success, I still feel that the concept
 of graphics is too narrow for a larger organization. We should
 look to support the spectrum of free and open source source
 creative applications, including sound programs, video programs
 (which are totally weak IMO right now), and many other not-purely
 graphics applications.

 Thoughts?


 just one: let's have create.freedosktop.org die of a painful death.

 then we have a slot free for libre-graphics.org




 some more thoughts:

 once libre-graphics.org is up and working i would suggest to move
 lgm and lgd to l-g/m and l-g/d respectively.

 lgw has its own life and is the only site which currently works
 (lgm partially works and create does only some small internal work).



 While I find your comments quite disrespectful to those who have
 contributed to the Create Project, myself included, I do find the
 appeal of consolidating projects very important. Are you going to do
 the work on this?


 i was not talking about the work done in the create project but the address 
create.freedesktop.org and what the website offers to the public.

 i guess you were not telling us that lgm, lgd and lgw projects are useless, 
weren't you?

 there is some important work done on the create mailing list and in the create 
wiki. and i'm participating in it.


 feel free to feel offended.



this is not acceptable.
jon clearly adressed the way you proposed to "kill" one of his projects.
this sounded somewhat disrespectful in my ears, too.

I don't like your attitude concerning making others feel offended, and I
think for the sanity of a mailinglist you should consider to start
caring if people feel offended by what you say. ESPECIALLY when you
think they did get it wrong.


Robert


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