Re: Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
> > From: Mark Wedel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I'm also a bit reluctant to add tons of new movement types. After all, at > some level, the movement type is the same, what is different is that some > things > may move through spaces better than others. > > So rather than adding a desert movement type (or camel), I'd rather desert > have a high enough slow move penalty to make it very slow to move through, > and > then give camels some ability to ignore that (built in desert movement skill > or > something). I agree with this, basically movement types would only be useful when you have a blocking condition they would address. Otherwise in these cases slowing or speeding movement is perhaps better (and uses different code). > > Similar for forest and jungles - I'm not sure I want a new movement type, > vs > making it painfully slow enough you have the appropriate skills. > True enough, I was thinking of balancing starting racial benefits such as dragon flight - however this can easily become an arms race where everyone looses (elves and halflings get forestwalk, dragons get flying, serpentmen get swimming, humans and dwarves get screwed over...) and maybe isn't a good idea. Maybe we should rethink racial flight given the new value of flying - only giving it out as a usable race-skill later on in the player development. Also if you want to block arrows and such you can make arches that do that anyway with the current suggestions. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement)
With DD you can't go through things you can't see through. --- Lalo Martins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And so says Mitch Obrian on 10/20/2005 12:40 AM... > > Please do not implement this passing through walls > > stuff. > > I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do > not > > want my maps to become worthless because someone > > decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. > > uh... ever heard of this thing called "dimension > door"? I believe it's > been in crossfire for years, it certainly was > already there when I first > played it in 2001. > > best, >Lalo > Martins > -- > So many of our dreams at first seem > impossible, >then they seem improbable, and then, when we >summon the will, they soon become inevitable. > -- > http://www.exoweb.net/ > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > GNU: never give up freedom > http://www.gnu.org/ > > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
Yes, and that's fine for that map. I don't want my prisondemadness suddenly becoming worthless, or my maps suddenly becoming easily traverable because OMG WE SHOULD WALK THROUGH WALLS WITH WRAITHS (else brain esplode!). Why should anyone make maps if you're going to implement this. I'm not going to constantaly go through all my maps to "fix" them because dev people keep making things worthless. --- Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 20/10/05, Mark Wedel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > But I do think giving someone permanent or at > will ethereal travel will be > > very powerful, even with some of the limitations. > The fact is that lots of maps > > have enough wall space where an ethereal creature > could effectively hide out > > away from any attackers. I'd certainly much > rather temporary items (potions) > > be added first and see what that breaks. > > There is already a map which does that. You can find > it in Lake > Country , in the training tower, if you go up 3-4 > floors. You can then > apply a dust and gain ability to walk through walls > on that map for a > while. I imagine it does it with a force and > checkinv in every space > that looks like a wall. > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
Ethereal travel should fail where Dimention door fails: No magic and can't see through areas. (If I have a wall one cant see through it should fail, same if I have a wall that has no magic set on it or a no magic tile there). --- Mark Wedel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Rivers are a messy case. Blocking swimming and > flying over them doesn't make > a lot of sense if you can fly over lots of other > stuff. > > While they are often used to protect areas, I'd > make the case that in most of > the bigworld map, allowing people to fly/swim over > them wouldn't be that big a > deal - sure, there is a bridge down a ways, but > letting someone fly over > upstream shouldn't be a problem. > > After all, it then makes zero sense that if I > follow a river down to the sea, > I can swim or fly over the shallow water to get > around the river, but not over > the river itself. > > That said, there are certainly a few places where > it really needs to block > movement. The problem is that in many of those, it > can look artificial (look, a > nice ring of river). > > As a note, and this includes ethereal travel, any > changes to the blocking of > spaces has to be done on a map by map/space by space > basis. IF we change the > archetypes to suddenly allow swimming and flying > over shallow water, I think > we'll find many maps just got broken. Same for > ethereal travel through walls. > > That said, I could certainly see someone writing > scripts (or updating the java > editor) with something like 'allow ethereal travel > on walls on this map' or > something, so that its just a simple 'is it ok to do > on this map or not' type of > update. > > But I do think giving someone permanent or at will > ethereal travel will be > very powerful, even with some of the limitations. > The fact is that lots of maps > have enough wall space where an ethereal creature > could effectively hide out > away from any attackers. I'd certainly much rather > temporary items (potions) > be added first and see what that breaks. > > > I'm also a bit reluctant to add tons of new > movement types. After all, at > some level, the movement type is the same, what is > different is that some things > may move through spaces better than others. > > So rather than adding a desert movement type (or > camel), I'd rather desert > have a high enough slow move penalty to make it very > slow to move through, and > then give camels some ability to ignore that (built > in desert movement skill or > something). > > Similar for forest and jungles - I'm not sure I > want a new movement type, vs > making it painfully slow enough you have the > appropriate skills. > > > > > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 20/10/05, Mark Wedel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But I do think giving someone permanent or at will ethereal travel will be > very powerful, even with some of the limitations. The fact is that lots of > maps > have enough wall space where an ethereal creature could effectively hide out > away from any attackers. I'd certainly much rather temporary items (potions) > be added first and see what that breaks. There is already a map which does that. You can find it in Lake Country , in the training tower, if you go up 3-4 floors. You can then apply a dust and gain ability to walk through walls on that map for a while. I imagine it does it with a force and checkinv in every space that looks like a wall. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
New arches are always good, should come with new pics though aswell (shouldn't be too hard). Perhapse I'll wip (or modify) them up (suggestions?) once the movement code is all in and happy, unless someone else want's to do it. --- Todd Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I should clarify this - I meant we should consider > adding new > 'impassible' forest and jungle arches which only > those with woodlore or > flying creatures could pass. This would be really > dense forests but > elves and halflings and those with woodsman skills > could get by. I > didn't mean to replace the existing wooded arches > which slow movement. > > >> > >>> new types of jungle and woods require a > 'woodlands' or 'flying' > >>> movement > >> > > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
Rivers are a messy case. Blocking swimming and flying over them doesn't make a lot of sense if you can fly over lots of other stuff. While they are often used to protect areas, I'd make the case that in most of the bigworld map, allowing people to fly/swim over them wouldn't be that big a deal - sure, there is a bridge down a ways, but letting someone fly over upstream shouldn't be a problem. After all, it then makes zero sense that if I follow a river down to the sea, I can swim or fly over the shallow water to get around the river, but not over the river itself. That said, there are certainly a few places where it really needs to block movement. The problem is that in many of those, it can look artificial (look, a nice ring of river). As a note, and this includes ethereal travel, any changes to the blocking of spaces has to be done on a map by map/space by space basis. IF we change the archetypes to suddenly allow swimming and flying over shallow water, I think we'll find many maps just got broken. Same for ethereal travel through walls. That said, I could certainly see someone writing scripts (or updating the java editor) with something like 'allow ethereal travel on walls on this map' or something, so that its just a simple 'is it ok to do on this map or not' type of update. But I do think giving someone permanent or at will ethereal travel will be very powerful, even with some of the limitations. The fact is that lots of maps have enough wall space where an ethereal creature could effectively hide out away from any attackers. I'd certainly much rather temporary items (potions) be added first and see what that breaks. I'm also a bit reluctant to add tons of new movement types. After all, at some level, the movement type is the same, what is different is that some things may move through spaces better than others. So rather than adding a desert movement type (or camel), I'd rather desert have a high enough slow move penalty to make it very slow to move through, and then give camels some ability to ignore that (built in desert movement skill or something). Similar for forest and jungles - I'm not sure I want a new movement type, vs making it painfully slow enough you have the appropriate skills. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
I agree > I think that mountains give the world more surface > area - there more > nooks and crannies to develop. They also make > travel meaningful and to > direct movement to areas of interest. Also over > time the idea was for > people to carve out areas in the mountains like was > done with the Ring > Mountains. If there is no where to go to, just > flattening the mountains > to aid movement would actually shrink the game world > IMHO. You have > people just locking into run mode and zipping along > for a while. > Getting there should be half the fun and there are > always portals and > boats and other shortcuts for the road weary. __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 10/20/05, Todd Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Brendan Lally wrote: > >with reference to back to the future - hoverboards don't work over water. > > > But you can still fly over seas... until you tire. The reason I suggest > we need to restrict rivers is because they are so often used to direct > movement already and they have fords and bridges to allow passage. Restrict such a restriction to fresh water? (salt in the water [techobabble] so that the [technobabble] provides greater lifting force) > >but you also said "sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or > >'flying' movement type" > > > >so if a player flies out over deep sea and lands, what happens? do > >they insta-death? > > > I think if they can't swim they would probably drown. If they could > swim they better hope they make it back to land before they drown. But if deep see is blocked to swimming, then they won't be able to swim back. > I > imagine you can't recuperate fatigue so you can fly again while you are > swimming... That will be guarenteed death then. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
I should clarify this - I meant we should consider adding new 'impassible' forest and jungle arches which only those with woodlore or flying creatures could pass. This would be really dense forests but elves and halflings and those with woodsman skills could get by. I didn't mean to replace the existing wooded arches which slow movement. new types of jungle and woods require a 'woodlands' or 'flying' movement ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
Brendan Lally wrote: On 10/20/05, Todd Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: A quick summary of ideas I have: very high mountains (mountain_5) remains blocked high mountains (mountain_4) require 'climbing' or 'flying' movement type to pass On a related note, whilst all these tiles need updating, flattening the tiles a little may be worthwhile (mountains 1 and 2 become hills, hills become flat ground) - currently the world map is very mountainous, flattening it would aid movement. I think that mountains give the world more surface area - there more nooks and crannies to develop. They also make travel meaningful and to direct movement to areas of interest. Also over time the idea was for people to carve out areas in the mountains like was done with the Ring Mountains. If there is no where to go to, just flattening the mountains to aid movement would actually shrink the game world IMHO. You have people just locking into run mode and zipping along for a while. Getting there should be half the fun and there are always portals and boats and other shortcuts for the road weary. rivers remain blocked (how to explain this re flying?) with reference to back to the future - hoverboards don't work over water. But you can still fly over seas... until you tire. The reason I suggest we need to restrict rivers is because they are so often used to direct movement already and they have fords and bridges to allow passage. *most* wall types and doors remain blocked Wasteland remains blocked (or becomes like swamp?) except to flying That will break the team arena. Also, since it is being changed anyway, how about altering its name to 'volcanic plain' or something similar? Wasteland sounds like something that should be traversible. Nothing will break since the existing functionality will not change. shallow sea requires a 'swimming' or 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type or a submarine movement type, which should also work on icebergs and sea ice. (not as anacronistic as might be supposed, the first submarines were in the early 17th century). new types of jungle and woods require a 'woodlands' or 'flying' movement Also, roads and tracks should allow carriages to pass and roads, tracks and grass should allow horses to pass. (these don't exist yet, but should). further in the future Desert should allow camels to pass (if there ever is a large enough desert to make that worthwhile). Tundra and glacier should be passable to husky sled. not sure that fits in since those types don't involve blocking in any way. We are really speaking of blocking movement, not movement types per se. type flying has limits on range but you also said "sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type" so if a player flies out over deep sea and lands, what happens? do they insta-death? I think if they can't swim they would probably drown. If they could swim they better hope they make it back to land before they drown. I imagine you can't recuperate fatigue so you can fly again while you are swimming... ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 10/20/05, Todd Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A quick summary of ideas I have: > > very high mountains (mountain_5) remains blocked > high mountains (mountain_4) require 'climbing' or 'flying' movement type > to pass On a related note, whilst all these tiles need updating, flattening the tiles a little may be worthwhile (mountains 1 and 2 become hills, hills become flat ground) - currently the world map is very mountainous, flattening it would aid movement. > rivers remain blocked (how to explain this re flying?) with reference to back to the future - hoverboards don't work over water. > *most* wall types and doors remain blocked > Wasteland remains blocked (or becomes like swamp?) except to flying That will break the team arena. Also, since it is being changed anyway, how about altering its name to 'volcanic plain' or something similar? Wasteland sounds like something that should be traversible. > shallow sea requires a 'swimming' or 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type > sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type or a submarine movement type, which should also work on icebergs and sea ice. (not as anacronistic as might be supposed, the first submarines were in the early 17th century). > new types of jungle and woods require a 'woodlands' or 'flying' movement Also, roads and tracks should allow carriages to pass and roads, tracks and grass should allow horses to pass. (these don't exist yet, but should). further in the future Desert should allow camels to pass (if there ever is a large enough desert to make that worthwhile). Tundra and glacier should be passable to husky sled. > type > flying has limits on range but you also said "sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type" so if a player flies out over deep sea and lands, what happens? do they insta-death? > swimming has a drowning behaviour (like swamp)? > climbing has a falling behaviour (like swamp)? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement)
On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 19/10/05, Todd Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I would also put forth an > > addition to the suggestions, the idea that etheral travelers would not > > be able to pass 'iron' either so it would only work against wood walls > > and stone and the like. > > That may work. That would make some areas completely inaccessible to > an ethereal player unless aided by someone corporial. Many maps may > need changing as the result if this is implemented, but I can see this > working. I would suggest preventing such players from passing walls that have "nomagic" set on one of the items on those squares. This would highly reduce the amount of maps that would have to be changed, to prevent abuse of this feature. Where map makers want to restrict players from passing through walls, the "nomagic" flag is used already, to hinder Dimension Door. -- Andrew Fuchs ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
There isn't any real difference between walls and other blocked tiles (like water) currently - everything is either blocked or not blocked. This is all part of the changes Mark is making to the movement code. Changing the blocking code has a lot of interesting repercussions. That's why it's being discussed. With the changes to movement - existing maps cannot be automatically changed since they will break. However new maps and updates to old maps will be better designed if we hash out as many of the different movement changes we want to make in advance. There has been some interesting ideas - I think it would be good to point out that we want to make movement as consistant and understandable as possible to avoid players having to experiment with every object on the map. This will mean when you do break the rules it will be effective. A quick summary of ideas I have: very high mountains (mountain_5) remains blocked high mountains (mountain_4) require 'climbing' or 'flying' movement type to pass rivers remain blocked (how to explain this re flying?) *most* wall types and doors remain blocked Wasteland remains blocked (or becomes like swamp?) except to flying shallow sea requires a 'swimming' or 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type sea and deep sea require a 'sailing' or 'flying' movement type new types of jungle and woods require a 'woodlands' or 'flying' movement type flying has limits on range swimming has a drowning behaviour (like swamp)? climbing has a falling behaviour (like swamp)? again these changes are foreward only and existing maps would have to be modified to use the new code/arches Mitch Obrian wrote: Please do NOT make anyone able to go through walls. It would be better to remove the wraith player (I don't recommend this though) then have a player that can move through walls. Why is this idea being considered? It would make maps useless. Please don't implement this. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement)
On 19/10/05, Todd Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I would also put forth an > addition to the suggestions, the idea that etheral travelers would not > be able to pass 'iron' either so it would only work against wood walls > and stone and the like. That may work. That would make some areas completely inaccessible to an ethereal player unless aided by someone corporial. Many maps may need changing as the result if this is implemented, but I can see this working. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement)
If there were an etheral movement type added it would not be implemented in existing maps by default (they still have "block all") just like the other movement changes. In archived movement related threads this 'ghostwalk' type movement was proposed. I would also put forth an addition to the suggestions, the idea that etheral travelers would not be able to pass 'iron' either so it would only work against wood walls and stone and the like. This gives us an out as well to explain why some walls aren't passable - they have iron in them (like in the nails of a door or in the ore of the stone/dirt). Brendan Lally wrote: On 10/19/05, Mitch Obrian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please do not implement this passing through walls stuff. I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do not want my maps to become worthless because someone decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. If it were a new movement type, then it would be possible to block it explicitly. How many maps would need modified to block that movement type for one reason or another? ___ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement)
All of them. No player should ever beable to move through walls (unless specified by the map perhapse). Walls should remain no_pass. Now if you wanted walls that things could pass through... up to the map maker, but don't change the default behavior. Don't f**k up the existing maps or my maps please. This idea is horrible IMHO. Why not just have blank maps then if you're going to screw up walls. How bout a fork of crossfire "wallsmeannothing-fire". It wouldn't even need any maps. I can't believe this is even being seriously discussed. Someone come's in and says "hey let's make walls passable!!111" and here we are "oh yea... they're like not walls!" If you can't get around that fact wraith-players can't go through walls... then take wraits out (not recommended). This is stupidity. Why should anyone even BOTHER to make maps if a player can just phase through the whole thing? If you want a space sim... fork the project. --- Brendan Lally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/19/05, Mitch Obrian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Please do not implement this passing through walls > > stuff. > > I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do > not > > want my maps to become worthless because someone > > decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. > > If it were a new movement type, then it would be > possible to block it > explicitly. > > How many maps would need modified to block that > movement type for one > reason or another? > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
Please do NOT make anyone able to go through walls. It would be better to remove the wraith player (I don't recommend this though) then have a player that can move through walls. Why is this idea being considered? It would make maps useless. Please don't implement this. __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 19/10/05, Mitch Obrian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please do NOT make anyone able to go through walls. > Why is this idea being considered? It would make maps > useless. How would this make maps useless? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement)
On 10/19/05, Mitch Obrian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please do not implement this passing through walls > stuff. > I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do not > want my maps to become worthless because someone > decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. If it were a new movement type, then it would be possible to block it explicitly. How many maps would need modified to block that movement type for one reason or another? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a /big/ hit points > > > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac bonus too ?) > > > > Create a naked wraith, try using it to fight something, and say that again. > > A lvl 100 wraith with high level karate is still reasonably powerful. Yes, but I want it to be playable like this, so someone might want to change to this mode and stay in it... for ever? A problem I see with staying in non-corporial form for ever is food. You would still use up food but have no way to replenish it. When feeding off others with wraith_touch food should go up as well as hp. Would this need a new attack type food_steal? Maybe wraith in this mode should also see invisible? > > > Would you change the face as well, to give some clue they are in this > > > mode? > > > > Being invisible will change the face automatically. It will be like > > wearing god finger. > > on a related but tangential point, would it be possible to make > invisible characters appear on their controller's screen? I am > thinking with the face having a medium alpha value, so that it appears > to be partially seethrough. I often find it hard when controlling an > invisible character to know where they are. I thought of that before, and then you will not be able to tell if someone cast reveal invisible on you. Maybe set to 75% transparrency for own invisible character? > > > > Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other > > > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply > > > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > > > > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares with no tiles on. > > > > True, but I do not see this as a huge problem if sometimes you can > > wander into a mechanism. x-ray vision allows you to see many of them, > > and that is not much of a problem. > > yes, but there are maps designed so that x-ray vision won't let you > see them, where as your walking through walls would (scorn gatehouse > is an example of this). I still do not see this as a huge cheat to be able to see some mechanisms. I imagine ghosts in ancient castles could too! > > Yes, I dislike both examples I gave myself. It seems something new > > needs to be introduced into the game, and placed around towns to allow > > wraiths get new bodies. Something not already found anywhere. > > taxidermists? I imagine this should be a relatively big thing to shed one's body, so taking a physical form should require a ritual of some sort to be performed. Maybe a map with a large pentagram, with lots of people reading some prayers, and if wraith steps over the body and stays there for half an hour they get re-incarnated? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
Yay, a let's break everything by allowing passage through walls idea! Crossfire should NEVER allow passage throug no_pass tiles. No Pass means no pass, walls shoud _always_ be no_pass (by default). Don't make the maps worthless please. --- Brendan Lally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > When activated the wraith becomes invisible, > stealthy, can move > > through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold > items in inventory > > (except invisible ones of course), The only attack > then avaliable is > > wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, > drain, and life > > slealing. > > > > Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so I > do not see how it > > will make them overpowered. Running for the > nearest wall will often be > > the best choice, only preying on the weak, but > that will be the only > > way of surviving, since you would die from three > hits by a powerful > > monster, if you can not life steal them as fast as > they are hitting > > you. > > Will direct attacks hit wraith stood in a wall (like > they do in ADOM > with ghosts)? > > Will rings/amulets remain wearable? > > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a > /big/ hit points > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac > bonus too ?) > > > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything > up, or interact > > with the environment, like push switches, buttons, > or anything like > > that. > > Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. > > Would you change the face as well, to give some clue > they are in this mode? > > > This would also mean players can not take stuff > out of treasure > > rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and then > walk out again > > leaving treasure behind. They would not be able to > steal it without > > completing the quest. > > You need to deal with switching out of this mode > inside the treasure > room (you try to adress this later) > > That could still lead to lots of potential spoilers > (you could observe > the boulder layout and infer information from that) > > > Also you should not be able to go into void > squares to get to other > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You > should be able to apply > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares > with no tiles on. > > > There is howerver a case of the player going into > the mode sneaking up > > to a switch opening treasure room, and then taking > it out. The only > > way out of this I see is to only provide one way > of leaving the mode > > once entered: by visiting some well defined set of > points (like an > > altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a new > body). This way it > > will be impossible for a player to either cheat in > the quest or help > > other players cheat. > > Alter of devourers might work, but there are maps > that have alters in > dungeons, and these might get placed in areas where > a player could get > stuck. > > Also what about a wraith that doesn't worship > devourers? > > There are similar issues with graveyard placement, > plus it is a little > illogical that a graveyard corpse should work, but a > 'fresh' one > should not. > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code. (Wraith stuff) (Please don't implement)
Please do not implement this passing through walls stuff. I /strongly/ oppose passing through walls. I do not want my maps to become worthless because someone decided we need to make the game worthlessly easy. --- Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > When activated the wraith becomes invisible, > stealthy, can move > > > through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold > items in inventory > > > (except invisible ones of course), The only > attack then avaliable is > > > wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, > drain, and life > > > slealing. > > > > > > Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so > I do not see how it > > > will make them overpowered. Running for the > nearest wall will often be > > > the best choice, only preying on the weak, but > that will be the only > > > way of surviving, since you would die from three > hits by a powerful > > > monster, if you can not life steal them as fast > as they are hitting > > > you. > > > > Will direct attacks hit wraith stood in a wall > (like they do in ADOM > > with ghosts)? > > I believe they will with the current code. I have > killed monsters > stuck in walls before. > > > Will rings/amulets remain wearable? > > No. They can not pass through walls as they are, and > therefore you can > not take them with you. I say again, nothing worn, > nothing carried. If > it shows up in inventory, you can not take it with > you. > > > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be > a /big/ hit points > > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small > ac bonus too ?) > > Create a naked wraith, try using it to fight > something, and say that again. > > > > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick > anything up, or interact > > > with the environment, like push switches, > buttons, or anything like > > > that. > > > > Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. > > I am not sure the server will like that, but yes, > essentially. > > > > Would you change the face as well, to give some > clue they are in this mode? > > Being invisible will change the face automatically. > It will be like > wearing god finger. > > > > This would also mean players can not take stuff > out of treasure > > > rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and > then walk out again > > > leaving treasure behind. They would not be able > to steal it without > > > completing the quest. > > > > You need to deal with switching out of this mode > inside the treasure > > room (you try to adress this later) > > I think I do. > > > > Also you should not be able to go into void > squares to get to other > > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You > should be able to apply > > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares > with no tiles on. > > True, but I do not see this as a huge problem if > sometimes you can > wander into a mechanism. x-ray vision allows you to > see many of them, > and that is not much of a problem. > > > > There is howerver a case of the player going > into the mode sneaking up > > > to a switch opening treasure room, and then > taking it out. The only > > > way out of this I see is to only provide one way > of leaving the mode > > > once entered: by visiting some well defined set > of points (like an > > > altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a > new body). This way it > > > will be impossible for a player to either cheat > in the quest or help > > > other players cheat. > > > > Alter of devourers might work, but there are maps > that have alters in > > dungeons, and these might get placed in areas > where a player could get > > stuck. > > > > Also what about a wraith that doesn't worship > devourers? > > > > There are similar issues with graveyard placement, > plus it is a little > > illogical that a graveyard corpse should work, but > a 'fresh' one > > should not. > > Yes, I dislike both examples I gave myself. It seems > something new > needs to be introduced into the game, and placed > around towns to allow > wraiths get new bodies. Something not already found > anywhere. > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Will rings/amulets remain wearable? > > No. They can not pass through walls as they are, and therefore you can > not take them with you. I say again, nothing worn, nothing carried. If > it shows up in inventory, you can not take it with you. Ok, this is stricter than what I thought you were describing originally. > > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a /big/ hit points > > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac bonus too ?) > > Create a naked wraith, try using it to fight something, and say that again. A lvl 100 wraith with high level karate is still reasonably powerful. > > > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything up, or interact > > > with the environment, like push switches, buttons, or anything like > > > that. > > > > Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. > > I am not sure the server will like that, but yes, essentially. If it weren't then it would be possible to set off buttons (unless you special case them). > > Would you change the face as well, to give some clue they are in this mode? > > Being invisible will change the face automatically. It will be like > wearing god finger. Yes, my eyes skipped over the word invisible there on a related but tangential point, would it be possible to make invisible characters appear on their controller's screen? I am thinking with the face having a medium alpha value, so that it appears to be partially seethrough. I often find it hard when controlling an invisible character to know where they are. > > > Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other > > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply > > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares with no tiles on. > > True, but I do not see this as a huge problem if sometimes you can > wander into a mechanism. x-ray vision allows you to see many of them, > and that is not much of a problem. yes, but there are maps designed so that x-ray vision won't let you see them, where as your walking through walls would (scorn gatehouse is an example of this). > Yes, I dislike both examples I gave myself. It seems something new > needs to be introduced into the game, and placed around towns to allow > wraiths get new bodies. Something not already found anywhere. taxidermists? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > When activated the wraith becomes invisible, stealthy, can move > > through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold items in inventory > > (except invisible ones of course), The only attack then avaliable is > > wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, drain, and life > > slealing. > > > > Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so I do not see how it > > will make them overpowered. Running for the nearest wall will often be > > the best choice, only preying on the weak, but that will be the only > > way of surviving, since you would die from three hits by a powerful > > monster, if you can not life steal them as fast as they are hitting > > you. > > Will direct attacks hit wraith stood in a wall (like they do in ADOM > with ghosts)? I believe they will with the current code. I have killed monsters stuck in walls before. > Will rings/amulets remain wearable? No. They can not pass through walls as they are, and therefore you can not take them with you. I say again, nothing worn, nothing carried. If it shows up in inventory, you can not take it with you. > I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a /big/ hit points > penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac bonus too ?) Create a naked wraith, try using it to fight something, and say that again. > > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything up, or interact > > with the environment, like push switches, buttons, or anything like > > that. > > Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. I am not sure the server will like that, but yes, essentially. > Would you change the face as well, to give some clue they are in this mode? Being invisible will change the face automatically. It will be like wearing god finger. > > This would also mean players can not take stuff out of treasure > > rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and then walk out again > > leaving treasure behind. They would not be able to steal it without > > completing the quest. > > You need to deal with switching out of this mode inside the treasure > room (you try to adress this later) I think I do. > > Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other > > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply > > exits though, to get around between maps. > > not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares with no tiles on. True, but I do not see this as a huge problem if sometimes you can wander into a mechanism. x-ray vision allows you to see many of them, and that is not much of a problem. > > There is howerver a case of the player going into the mode sneaking up > > to a switch opening treasure room, and then taking it out. The only > > way out of this I see is to only provide one way of leaving the mode > > once entered: by visiting some well defined set of points (like an > > altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a new body). This way it > > will be impossible for a player to either cheat in the quest or help > > other players cheat. > > Alter of devourers might work, but there are maps that have alters in > dungeons, and these might get placed in areas where a player could get > stuck. > > Also what about a wraith that doesn't worship devourers? > > There are similar issues with graveyard placement, plus it is a little > illogical that a graveyard corpse should work, but a 'fresh' one > should not. Yes, I dislike both examples I gave myself. It seems something new needs to be introduced into the game, and placed around towns to allow wraiths get new bodies. Something not already found anywhere. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When activated the wraith becomes invisible, stealthy, can move > through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold items in inventory > (except invisible ones of course), The only attack then avaliable is > wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, drain, and life > slealing. > > Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so I do not see how it > will make them overpowered. Running for the nearest wall will often be > the best choice, only preying on the weak, but that will be the only > way of surviving, since you would die from three hits by a powerful > monster, if you can not life steal them as fast as they are hitting > you. Will direct attacks hit wraith stood in a wall (like they do in ADOM with ghosts)? Will rings/amulets remain wearable? I'm inclined to say that at least there should be a /big/ hit points penalty as well (maybe 50% - though with a small ac bonus too ?) > While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything up, or interact > with the environment, like push switches, buttons, or anything like > that. Ok, so their weight would have to be zero too. Would you change the face as well, to give some clue they are in this mode? > This would also mean players can not take stuff out of treasure > rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and then walk out again > leaving treasure behind. They would not be able to steal it without > completing the quest. You need to deal with switching out of this mode inside the treasure room (you try to adress this later) That could still lead to lots of potential spoilers (you could observe the boulder layout and infer information from that) > Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other > "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply > exits though, to get around between maps. not all boulder layouts are seperated by squares with no tiles on. > There is howerver a case of the player going into the mode sneaking up > to a switch opening treasure room, and then taking it out. The only > way out of this I see is to only provide one way of leaving the mode > once entered: by visiting some well defined set of points (like an > altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a new body). This way it > will be impossible for a player to either cheat in the quest or help > other players cheat. Alter of devourers might work, but there are maps that have alters in dungeons, and these might get placed in areas where a player could get stuck. Also what about a wraith that doesn't worship devourers? There are similar issues with graveyard placement, plus it is a little illogical that a graveyard corpse should work, but a 'fresh' one should not. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 19/10/05, Brendan Lally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I know this is now going off topic, but also if wraiths when naked > > could become stealthed and invisible it would add an interesting game > > style, where you would hide in walls, sneak up to victims, and suck > > their life away, one by one. > > Would banishment also move through walls then? > > this is an interesting question, if you answer yes, then many undead > levels become too easy, if you answer no, then wraith become (almost?) > invincible. No, it can not, and no, it would not make the wraith almost invincible. Let me clarify what I have in mind then. (I have very little clue how that is implementable, this is just a concept thought) Upon creating a wraith gets a skill caleld ethereal_mode, which is only activatable when the wraith is not wearing or holding anything. When activated the wraith becomes invisible, stealthy, can move through walls, and can not cast spells, or hold items in inventory (except invisible ones of course), The only attack then avaliable is wraith touch, which deals ghosthit, depletion, drain, and life slealing. Without clothes wraiths are not very strong, so I do not see how it will make them overpowered. Running for the nearest wall will often be the best choice, only preying on the weak, but that will be the only way of surviving, since you would die from three hits by a powerful monster, if you can not life steal them as fast as they are hitting you. While in this mode the wraith ca not pick anything up, or interact with the environment, like push switches, buttons, or anything like that. This would also mean players can not take stuff out of treasure rooms... they can get in, fly though it, and then walk out again leaving treasure behind. They would not be able to steal it without completing the quest. Also you should not be able to go into void squares to get to other "floors" or mechanic sections of the map. You should be able to apply exits though, to get around between maps. There is howerver a case of the player going into the mode sneaking up to a switch opening treasure room, and then taking it out. The only way out of this I see is to only provide one way of leaving the mode once entered: by visiting some well defined set of points (like an altar of devourers, or a graveyard to posess a new body). This way it will be impossible for a player to either cheat in the quest or help other players cheat. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 10/19/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I know this is now going off topic, but also if wraiths when naked > could become stealthed and invisible it would add an interesting game > style, where you would hide in walls, sneak up to victims, and suck > their life away, one by one. Would banishment also move through walls then? this is an interesting question, if you answer yes, then many undead levels become too easy, if you answer no, then wraith become (almost?) invincible. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 19/10/05, Anton Oussik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Returning to original thread topic momentarily, ethereal movement > should be allowed to all undead who are naked. This will only make the > movement type useful for quests and will not give any combat advantage > to most players (dragons being a partial exception). Maybe wraiths > should get a special "wraith touch" attack skill (melee skill which > deals level dependant damage, dealing ghosthit, drain, life stealing, > and depletion)? I know this is now going off topic, but also if wraiths when naked could become stealthed and invisible it would add an interesting game style, where you would hide in walls, sneak up to victims, and suck their life away, one by one. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
Returning to original thread topic momentarily, ethereal movement should be allowed to all undead who are naked. This will only make the movement type useful for quests and will not give any combat advantage to most players (dragons being a partial exception). Maybe wraiths should get a special "wraith touch" attack skill (melee skill which deals level dependant damage, dealing ghosthit, drain, life stealing, and depletion)? As a counterbalance undead should not be allowed to swim or fly. I don't know why, but it seems more balanced that way. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
I've found the lore very interesting. More would be wonderful! Once it's in we'll add it to the ingame random reading materials. --- Lalo Martins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And so says Brendan Lally on 10/18/2005 09:19 AM... > > On 10/17/05, Mitch Obrian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > >>Gaia is a diety who has it's own lore, other > dieties > >>have other lore. We should not make one lore > primacy > >>above other (_especially_ gaia's). > > > > Is there actually a proper set of lore for the > various gods in crossfire? > > > > If so, where is it? > > It was a pet project I was working on, many, many > years ago. It's on > the wiki. It's not by any means official. And I > only did Gaea, Valriel > and Gorokh versions (although it's possible that > followers of other gods > subscribe to the Gaean version, it was written with > that intention). > > If anyone actually finds them interesting, I'm game > for making > improvements or writing more stuff. > > (Personally, I *really* love the Valriel/Gorokh > ones) > > best, >Lalo > Martins > -- > So many of our dreams at first seem > impossible, >then they seem improbable, and then, when we >summon the will, they soon become inevitable. > -- > http://www.exoweb.net/ > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > GNU: never give up freedom > http://www.gnu.org/ > > > ___ > crossfire mailing list > crossfire@metalforge.org > http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire > __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Re: New movement code.
On 10/18/05, Lalo Martins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And so says Brendan Lally on 10/18/2005 09:19 AM... > > Is there actually a proper set of lore for the various gods in crossfire? > > > > If so, where is it? > > It was a pet project I was working on, many, many years ago. It's on > the wiki. It's not by any means official. And I only did Gaea, Valriel > and Gorokh versions (although it's possible that followers of other gods > subscribe to the Gaean version, it was written with that intention). Yeah, I was thinking in terms of inside the game. possibly however this stuff should go into the handbook? > If anyone actually finds them interesting, I'm game for making > improvements or writing more stuff. It certainly looks interesting, there are a few grammatical oddities (things like teached instead of taught), but I'll wait until there is a wiki with revision control until I fix them (speaking of which, when is that expected?) ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
