Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Bruno Fassino]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 4:48 AM, Richard Mason  wrote:
>
> I'm not sure I understand that sentence, but I think you would agree that it
> is desirable to state in information sources on this topic that x-height
> varies with font size, and a reason why as you have indicated. From there
> one could perhaps reasonably say that it isn't particularly important, and
> if the value can not be deduced the browser invents one but I certainly
> don't think that sources should invent values, like the CSS spec used to,
> and say they are fixed. People read these documents, take the false data as
> fact carved in stone, and then repeat it in books and articles that are read
> for years.

I don't think that in this particular case the CSS specs are giving so
"false" data. It's common to speak of x-height ratio as a font unique
ratio, see for example this definition [1], with its detail "typically
with 1000 or 2048 units to the Em".
The "oscillations" that we see at small font sizes are a sort of
accident, caused by limitations imposed by a coarse grid, which may or
may not be important.

Regards,
Bruno


[1] http://typophile.com/node/12028

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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Jan 13, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Richard Mason wrote:

> Speaking of CSS specs I'm always surprised that the spec authors don't get 
> called out for the nonsense they put in them. A specification should tell an 
> author (a programmer) what is required. It should not tell them how to do it 
> or explain computer fundamentals,

The CSS specs don't assume that Author = Programmer

Author is commonly understood as 'someone who writes a stylesheet'
(I bet that most people following css-d as not programmers)

Philippe
---
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http://l-c-n.com/





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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Richard Mason]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Bruno Fassino wrote

Yes, the computation of the aspect ratio gives results depending on the 
size. But this does not mean that such computations are wrong.


I'm not sure I understand that sentence, but I think you would agree 
that it is desirable to state in information sources on this topic that 
x-height varies with font size, and a reason why as you have indicated. 
From there one could perhaps reasonably say that it isn't particularly 
important, and if the value can not be deduced the browser invents one 
but I certainly don't think that sources should invent values, like the 
CSS spec used to, and say they are fixed. People read these documents, 
take the false data as fact carved in stone, and then repeat it in books 
and articles that are read for years.


Speaking of CSS specs I'm always surprised that the spec authors don't 
get called out for the nonsense they put in them. A specification should 
tell an author (a programmer) what is required. It should not tell them 
how to do it or explain computer fundamentals, unless there is a really 
special need to do so. You shouldn't expect to have to explain to a 
programmer how to do their job any more than you would ask a skilled 
carpenter to make a cabinet and then insist on telling them what a tape 
measure is and how to use it.


We have this in the "CSS Fonts Module Level 3 3.7 Relative sizing: the 
‘font-size-adjust’ property"
"Authors can calculate the aspect value for a given font by comparing 
spans with the same content but different font-size-adjust properties. 
If the same font-size is used, the spans will match when the 
font-size-adjust value is accurate for the given font."
True? Possibly. But no competent programmer in their right mind would 
get values this way when the Operating System API's will give them the 
answer directly.


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Re: [css-d] line breaks and/or outdenting?

[Rory Bernstein]

>> But you don't have 2 items!!! You have one item with some added line
> breaks. That's why Chetan's solution only indents the first line.
> (It does work on the first line this end. In which browser are you
> failing to see the indent?)
> 
> To get the effect you seek, you absolutely need two items/ elements.
> Your CMS is hobbling your best efforts. :(

Ah, you're right. I need to revamp the way that the data is organized in the DB 
to get what I want. I was hoping to avoid this, but it's unavoidable! Thanks, 
all. Great info, as always.
Rory

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Re: [css-d] line breaks and/or outdenting?

[David Hucklesby]

On 1/12/11 11:34 AM, Rory Bernstein wrote:

Hello, I posted here before about a solution for outdenting the lines
of a paragraph (first line of text hangs our further to left than the
rest of the lines) and got a great solution. But, it turns out that
given how my content is coming in from the CMS, I cannot mark up the
text in the way that I'd need (can't wrap each item in a  tag the
way I would need to.

Instead, I am limited to this markup. Lines of text with a  tag
at the end of lines (except the last line):

 The first item is a line of text The
second item is a line of text The third item is a line of text



[...]

See this page: http://bit.ly/hCqCqX

In the right sidebar, the "Court Admissions" section, there are 2
items that each wrap onto a 2nd line: The Supreme Court of the United
States of America New York State Appellate Court



But you don't have 2 items!!! You have one item with some added line
breaks. That's why Chetan's solution only indents the first line.
(It does work on the first line this end. In which browser are you
failing to see the indent?)

To get the effect you seek, you absolutely need two items/ elements.
Your CMS is hobbling your best efforts. :(


I'd like to style them as described above. What do I do? You can see
I tried adding this class to the span that wraps around the 2 items:

space_after_break br { padding-bottom: 20px; }

...but this does not work. Can you style a  tag???


I doubt it.

Cordially,
David
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Re: [css-d] Floats followed by paragraphs

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Del Wegener wrote:


Good Day;
I frequently float one image right another left and follow that with a 
paragraph of text.  What is the best method for preventing the text from 
creeping up between the two pictures?

See a sample here:
http://www.alliedcorrosion.com/products/manufacturer_introduction.php
Then click on "BOX test" at the top of the menu on the left.


  Do you have a reason for not giving us the correct URL?
  

#container1 p
{
clear:both;
}


Should I enclose the paragraph in a div of width 100%?


has a width of 100%.

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   Author:
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Re: [css-d] Floats followed by paragraphs

[Christian Kirchhoff]

Hello,

you have to define "clear: both;" on the p element in order to have it 
clear the left and the right floated image.


Best regards,

Christian Kirchhoff
Editura GmbH & Co. KG
Tempelhofer Damm 2 · 12101 Berlin
www.editura.de 
AG Berlin-Charlottenburg · HRA 43189 B · USt.Id. DE217180548
Geschäftsführer: Stefan Krause · Ralf Szymanski

Am 12.01.2011 22:44, schrieb Del Wegener:

Good Day;
I frequently float one image right another left and follow that with a 
paragraph of text.  What is the best method for preventing the text 
from creeping up between the two pictures?

See a sample here:
http://www.alliedcorrosion.com/products/manufacturer_introduction.php
Then click on "BOX test" at the top of the menu on the left.

Should I enclose the paragraph in a div of width 100%?
Del

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[css-d] Floats followed by paragraphs

[Del Wegener]

Good Day;
I frequently float one image right another left and follow that with a 
paragraph of text.  What is the best method for preventing the text from 
creeping up between the two pictures?

See a sample here:
http://www.alliedcorrosion.com/products/manufacturer_introduction.php
Then click on "BOX test" at the top of the menu on the left.

Should I enclose the paragraph in a div of width 100%?
Del 



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Re: [css-d] what font is being called?

[Bruno Fassino]

On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 3:32 AM, Richard Mason  wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote
>
>> If you want/need to know the aspect ratio of a font, this service can help
>> (for fonts installed on your local drives):
>> http://fontdeck.com/font-size-adjust.html
>> or this page:
>> http://brunildo.org/test/fontlist3.html
>
> Both wrong because the aspect ratio of a font is not fixed but varies with
> font size.
> At http://www.emdpi.com/cssfontsizeadjust.html I have a download with graphs
> of aspect ratio v font size (10px to 50px) for a number of fonts.


Yes, the computation of the aspect ratio gives results depending on
the size. But this does not mean that such computations are wrong.
Most of the oscillations observed starting from small sizes are caused
by the inevitable fact that fonts are rendered on a discrete grid with
very few pixels. I think that what is usually called 'aspect ratio'
(without size specification) is the "ideal" ratio, when the font is
rendered on a sufficiently fine grid. Indeed if you extend the
computation of your graphs to higher sizes the oscillations reduce. In
addition to the page mentioned by Philippe, I also have this ones [1],
[2], where you can produce graphs similar to yours (they require a
browser with correct support of em, Gecko 1.9 and also IE 9 seems
working fine. The oscillations smooth out if you go till something
like 1000px).
The oscillations observed at small font-sizes probably reduce the
usefulness of font-size-adjust at that sizes, but does not necessarily
mean that is useless or that it must be fed values depending on the
size (Moreover as technology improve and physical pixels density
increase, we will hopefully have to work in a range where the
oscillations of the above graphs are smaller).

Regards,
Bruno


[1] http://brunildo.org/test/x-height-compare.html
[2] http://brunildo.org/test/normal-lh-plot.html
-- 
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Re: [css-d] line breaks and/or outdenting?

[Rory Bernstein]

On Jan 12, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Chetan Crasta wrote:

> Sorry, only a limited number of properties can be applied to the
> pseudo element :first-line. These do not include positioning
> properties. Looks like your only option is to put the text of the
> first line within a span and then style it.
> 
> ~Chetan

Thanks for thinking about this for me. Is there no way to target the  
tag? I really don't have the ability to wrap the first item in a span, given 
the way this info is coming in through the database.

Rory
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Re: [css-d] line breaks and/or outdenting?

[Chetan Crasta]

Sorry, only a limited number of properties can be applied to the
pseudo element :first-line. These do not include positioning
properties. Looks like your only option is to put the text of the
first line within a span and then style it.

~Chetan
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Re: [css-d] Browsers to Test with (was: Positioning an obj...)

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/01/12 19:56 (GMT+0100) Gabriele Romanato composed:


Don't get me wrong but ... What is the percentage of use of
Seamonkey? ;-)


Family trees:
1-IE
2-Gecko [1]
SeaMonkey [Mozilla Suite renamed]
Firefox [progeny of Mozilla aka Gecko]
a bunch of others
3a-KHTML
Konqueror
3b-Webkit (a fork of KHTML)
Safari
Chrome
*-Opera

Since rendering improvements get backported into KHTML from Webkit, one can 
consider them equivalent as long as the versions are the same age.



Philip, as a rule of thumb, you should always test in major league
browsers, like IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome.


SeaMonkey is as major as major gets, while testing in Safari is same as 
testing in Chrome as long as the little nits (e.g. font smoothing; age) are 
kept equivalent. One of each of the 3 majors is enough. There is no Safari on 
Linux, while there is as a practical matter no KHTML on anything other than 
*nix. Opera, a minor though highly compliant player, is generally as 
compliant as compliant gets, so testing on it should be considered 
(unnecessary) brownie points unless its tiny share somehow manages to get 
differently compliant.



Minority browsers get you mad. I used to have up to 10 browsers on my
computer, and once I got access to the access logs of the sites I was
developing I got struck by the fact that almost all users (98%-99%)
were using either IE flavors or Firefox.


http://bclary.com/blog/2006/04/21/browser-detection-part-duh-will-they-ever-learn/ 


http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php
[1] http://geckoisgecko.org/
--
"How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose
understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: [css-d] [Test]: Positioning an object element

[Kevin A. Cameron]

Dang it, did it again - sent to individual and not the list. What's up with
that?!

Not sure if the W3 browser stats are accurate, but ignoring chrome (and or
> safari) seems to be ignoring a large % of potential users...
>
>  2010 Internet 
> Explorer
> Firefox  
> Chrome
> Safari  
> OperaDecember27.5 
> %43.5%22.4%3.8%2.2%
>
> Kevin
>
> Sent from Gmail in google chrome ;)
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) <
> p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Gabriele Romanato wrote:
>>
>>  Don't get me wrong but ... What is the percentage of use of Seamonkey?
>>> ;-)
>>> Philip, as a rule of thumb, you should always test in major league
>>> browsers, like IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome.
>>>
>>
>> Of course, it /could/ be something to with the following,
>> and nothing to do with my choice of browser at all :
>>
>>  Validation Output: 5 Errors
>>>
>>>   1. Error Line 44, Column 37: Element object is missing one or more of
>>> the following attributes: data, type.
>>>
>>>  http://www.yout…
>>>
>>>   2. Error Line 44, Column 128: Stray end tag param.
>>>
>>>  …nFl0nlHaWa4?fs=1&hl=en_US">>> name="allowFullScreen" value="tr…
>>>
>>>   3. Error Line 44, Column 179: Stray end tag param.
>>>
>>>  …"allowFullScreen" value="true">>> name="allowscriptaccess" value="…
>>>
>>>   4. Error Line 44, Column 234: Stray end tag param.
>>>
>>>  …n" value="true">>> value="always">
>>>
>>
>>5. Error Line 45, Column 192: Stray end tag embed.
>>>
>>>  …wscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480"
>>> height="385">
>>>
>>
>> ** Phil.
>> --
>> Not sent from my i-Pad, i-Phone, Blackberry, Blueberry, or any
>> such similar poseurs' toy, none of which would I be seen dead
>> with even if they came free with every packet of cornflakes.
>> __
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>
>
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Re: [css-d] line breaks and/or outdenting?

[Rory Bernstein]

> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:04 AM, Rory Bernstein  
> wrote:
>> Hello, I posted here before about a solution for outdenting the lines of a 
>> paragraph (first line of text hangs our further to left than the rest of the 
>> lines) and got a great solution. But, it turns out that given how my content 
>> is coming in from the CMS, I cannot mark up the text in the way that I'd 
>> need (can't wrap each item in a  tag the way I would need to.

On Jan 12, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Chetan Crasta wrote:
> Did you try this:
> #container:first-line
> {
> text-indent:-4em;
> }
> 
> ~Chetan


Hi Chetan, Hmmm. It is not working for me. Here's the page:
http://mcgivney.ehclients.com/people/

Here's my markup:
The Supreme Court of the United States of 
America
New York State Appellate Court
And my CSS:
#space_after_break:first-line {
text-indent:-4em;
}

What am I doing wrong? Thanks for your help,
Rory
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Re: [css-d] line breaks and/or outdenting?

[Chetan Crasta]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:04 AM, Rory Bernstein  wrote:
> Hello, I posted here before about a solution for outdenting the lines of a 
> paragraph (first line of text hangs our further to left than the rest of the 
> lines) and got a great solution. But, it turns out that given how my content 
> is coming in from the CMS, I cannot mark up the text in the way that I'd need 
> (can't wrap each item in a  tag the way I would need to.
>

Did you try this:
#container:first-line
{
text-indent:-4em;
}

~Chetan
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[css-d] line breaks and/or outdenting?

[Rory Bernstein]

Hello, I posted here before about a solution for outdenting the lines of a 
paragraph (first line of text hangs our further to left than the rest of the 
lines) and got a great solution. But, it turns out that given how my content is 
coming in from the CMS, I cannot mark up the text in the way that I'd need 
(can't wrap each item in a  tag the way I would need to.

Instead, I am limited to this markup. Lines of text with a  tag at the 
end of lines (except the last line):


The first item is a line of text
The second item is a line of text
The third item is a line of text


The container div has a set width. My first choice for formatting is that as 
the text wraps in the containing div, the 2nd and subsequent lines of an "item" 
are indented with respect to the first line. But maybe this is not possible 
given the markup limitations. 

My second choice is to style the  tag so that it gives extra space below 
it, creating space between the items. I can't use line-height here because that 
would add extra space between all lines, even within a multi-line item.

See this page:
http://bit.ly/hCqCqX

In the right sidebar, the "Court Admissions" section, there are 2 items that 
each wrap onto a 2nd line:
The Supreme Court of the United States of America
New York State Appellate Court

I'd like to style them as described above. What do I do? You can see I tried 
adding this class to the span that wraps around the 2 items:

space_after_break br {
padding-bottom: 20px;
}

...but this does not work. Can you style a  tag???
Thanks!

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Re: [css-d] [Test]: Positioning an object element

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Gabriele Romanato wrote:


Don't get me wrong but ... What is the percentage of use of Seamonkey? ;-)
Philip, as a rule of thumb, you should always test in major league
browsers, like IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome.


Of course, it /could/ be something to with the following,
and nothing to do with my choice of browser at all :


Validation Output: 5 Errors

   1. Error Line 44, Column 37: Element object is missing one or more of the 
following attributes: data, type.

  http://www.yout…

   2. Error Line 44, Column 128: Stray end tag param.

  …nFl0nlHaWa4?fs=1&hl=en_US">



   5. Error Line 45, Column 192: Stray end tag embed.

  …wscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" 
height="385">


** Phil.
--
Not sent from my i-Pad, i-Phone, Blackberry, Blueberry, or any
such similar poseurs' toy, none of which would I be seen dead
with even if they came free with every packet of cornflakes.
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Re: [css-d] [Test]: Positioning an object element

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Gabriele Romanato wrote:

> Don't get me wrong but ... What is the percentage of use of Seamonkey? ;-)

No idea, but it's all I ever use.

I might, if it were particularly important, test against a recent
IE & Firefox, but to be absolutely honest, I don't care what things
look like in the last three you mention.

If my HTML & CSS are valid, the page is accessible, and it looks
good in SeaMonkey, IE & FF, that's good enough for me.  One of
the benefits of being retired is you don't have to worry about
pleasing people you don't care about any more !

** Phil.
--
Not sent from my i-Pad, i-Phone, Blackberry, Blueberry, or any
such similar poseurs' toy, none of which would I be seen dead
with even if they came free with every packet of cornflakes.
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Re: [css-d] form/ul layout weird in IE

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, rich...@moremagic.com wrote:


Quoting "Chris F.A. Johnson" :



  It's off in other browsers as well. See .



What browser is that, by the way?


   Any browser with a larger minimum font size than yours.

The buttons seem off there, but those are a 
minor concern in relation to the overall form layout, which looks okay to me 
in your SS.


   Have the last lines cut off is OK?

I'm trying to think of a way so that the four buttons can each take up about 
25% of the width of the form so they don't overflow like that though.


   width: 25% (minus margins and padding).

--
   Chris F.A. Johnson, 
   Author:
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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Re: [css-d] [Test]: Positioning an object element

[Gabriele Romanato]

Don't get me wrong but ... What is the percentage of use of  
Seamonkey? ;-)
Philip, as a rule of thumb, you should always test in major league  
browsers, like IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome.
Minority browsers get you mad. I used to have up to 10 browsers on my  
computer, and once I got access to the access logs of the sites I was  
developing I got struck by the fact that almost all users (98%-99%)  
were using either IE flavors or Firefox.


Don't worry: it's probably due to a parsing error of Seamonkey. :-)

bye :-)

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http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/  (English)
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/  (English)
http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/  (English)








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Re: [css-d] form/ul layout weird in IE

[richard]

Quoting "Chris F.A. Johnson" :



   It's off in other browsers as well. See .



What browser is that, by the way? The buttons seem off there, but  
those are a minor concern in relation to the overall form layout,  
which looks okay to me in your SS.


I'm trying to think of a way so that the four buttons can each take up  
about 25% of the width of the form so they don't overflow like that  
though.





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Re: [css-d] form/ul layout weird in IE

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, rich...@moremagic.com wrote:


Quoting David Laakso :


Post uri to list. Thanks. ~d


Whoops, my mind must have been leaving me at the end of the day..
https://www.moremagicpoints.com/mloyalty/browsercompatability is the address 
where I placed the page.


   It's off in other browsers as well. See .

--
   Chris F.A. Johnson, 
   Author:
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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Re: [css-d] form/ul layout weird in IE

[richard]

Quoting David Laakso :




Post uri to list. Thanks. ~d




Whoops, my mind must have been leaving me at the end of the day..
https://www.moremagicpoints.com/mloyalty/browsercompatability is the  
address where I placed the page. As Philip mentioned the certificate  
is off, I've been nagging the appropriate people about that for a  
while now.


-Rich




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Re: [css-d] [Test]: Positioning an object element

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Gabriele Romanato wrote:

Hi.

A couple of days ago a user posted here a message about  and
positioning. I've created a test page and a brief description that I
think it may be helpful for future use cases:

http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2011/01/css-positioning-object-element.html



As you can see here, everything works just fine.


Well, not /absolutely/ fine.  When the linked demonstration is first
rendered in SeaMonkey 2.0.11, at about the position where the |> button
will appear, /something/ followed by the unit "px" appears briefly
on-screen.  Any idea why ?

Philip Taylor
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[css-d] [Test]: Positioning an object element

[Gabriele Romanato]

Hi.

A couple of days ago a user posted here a message about  and  
positioning. I've created a test page and a brief description that I  
think it may be helpful for future use cases:


http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/2011/01/css-positioning-object-element.html

hope this will help you to get an idea of how this works. bye :-)


http://www.css-zibaldone.com
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/  (English)
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/  (English)
http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/  (English)








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