Re: [css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Ingo Chao]

2011/1/19, Alan Gresley :
>  So it does makes me wonder why you would even
> use content: "\A" to begin with when that's the UA CSS default behavior
> for  anyway, excluding Safari and it's bug.
>

Just playing with the HTML5 UA default style sheet. HTML5:Rendering says:
"The CSS rules given in these subsections are, except where otherwise
specified, expected to be used as part of the user-agent level style
sheet defaults for all documents that contain HTML elements."

Standardizing an UA's stylesheet and sharing a CSS-reset aim for the
same, to even discrepancies out between browser defaults. But CSS
resets seem to be more of practical use.

Ingo
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Re: [css-d] ADMIN: HTML5 and CSS3

[Micky Hulse]

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 7:19 AM, Eric A. Meyer  wrote:
> At 6:50 AM -0700 1/19/11, Colin (Sandy) Pittendrigh wrote:
>> This may be off-topic in a CSS list.
>   Yes, it's off-topic for a CSS list.  So, really, is arguing about whether
> HTML5 is "ready to use" or not, or if it's useful or dangerous or misguided
> or brilliant or whatever.
>   I don't mind discussions about ways to style (and challenges with styling)
> the new HTML5 elements, of course.  But arguing about the language itself is
> off-topic here and should be avoided.  Thank you.

I am a little late to the conversation, but I just thought I would
point out (to my fellow CSS-d list members) that there is a decent
HTML5 list here:



Low traffic, but I thought it would be good to mention (I think it
could use more peeps... Join up!)

There is also an awesome web design list here:



Cheers,
M
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Re: [css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Alan Gresley]

On 19/01/2011 7:46 PM, Ingo Chao wrote:

HTML5:Rendering:Punctuation and decorations
says
   br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; }

But this doesn't seem to work in Safari and Chrome:
http://www.satzansatz.de/w3/break.html

Who is wrong?

Ingo



Hello Ingo,

I do not know what '\A' does. I presume it forces a line break. The  
should force a new line and the text "This line is" should behave as an 
anonymous block. As suggested by Gabrielle, adding display block will 
get Safari working.



br {
  content: '\A';
  white-space: pre;
  display: block; /* Safari 5 friendly CSS */
}


I don't know how relevant this table of UA CSS defaults [1] is but it 
shows that Safari 3.1 used the default of null for . FF3+, Opera and 
IE8 uses content: "\A". So it does makes me wonder why you would even 
use content: "\A" to begin with when that's the UA CSS default behavior 
for  anyway, excluding Safari and it's bug.



Testing this code,

This line and text with a span is broken.

with this CSS,

span { content: '\A'; }

does nothing in all browsers tested apart from Opera 11. Opera 11 eats 
the line boxes within the . The reason I test in Opera 11 is that 
it renders the below generated content on a selected element (no need 
for :after :before) even if it has no content or any CSS styling that 
generates a box (such as height and width).


div { content: 'text'; }



1. 


--
Alan http://css-class.com/

Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
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Re: [css-d] ADMIN: HTML5 and CSS3

[Eric A. Meyer]

At 6:50 AM -0700 1/19/11, Colin (Sandy) Pittendrigh wrote:


This may be off-topic in a CSS list.


   Yes, it's off-topic for a CSS list.  So, really, is arguing about 
whether HTML5 is "ready to use" or not, or if it's useful or 
dangerous or misguided or brilliant or whatever.
   I don't mind discussions about ways to style (and challenges with 
styling) the new HTML5 elements, of course.  But arguing about the 
language itself is off-topic here and should be avoided.  Thank you.


--
Eric A. Meyer (http://meyerweb.com/eric/), List Chaperone
"CSS is much too interesting and elegant to be not taken seriously."
  -- Martina Kosloff (http://mako4css.com/)
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Re: [css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Alan Gresley wrote:


I guess this HTML5 movement will just sit well with the current movement
of poor coding practices. I guess I show some of the cynicism of Philip
(Ret.). :-)


Welcome aboard, Alan :-)
--
Not sent from my i-Pad, i-Phone, Blackberry, Blueberry, or any
such similar poseurs' toy, none of which would I be seen dead
with even if they came free with every packet of cornflakes.
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Re: [css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Colin (Sandy) Pittendrigh]

This may be off-topic in a CSS list.
But the emperor's new HTML5 clothes (it seems to me) are web sockets.

Only Chrome supports them right now? Is that true?  But all browsers will
before long.
And then the awkward XMLHttpRequest will be gone forever.

Web application programming will suddenly be oh so much easier...so much
more like real application programming--where you can call for data and
expect
to get it right now.  That will blow the doors off the current web site
status quo.

Web sockets patched together with a drag and drop mechanism plus
a 3D graphics library, could, for instance, mean Google Sketchup  would
no longer be a windows binary download. You could run it any HTML5 browser.

-- 

/*  Colin (Sandy) Pittendrigh  >--oO0> */
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Re: [css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Alan Gresley]

On 20/01/2011 12:30 AM, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:


On Jan 19, 2011, at 7:55 PM, Alan Gresley wrote:


But SVG can be used in HTML5 and be valid. Only works in IE9 and FF4b so far.




That works in WebKit nightly builds / Chrome 10 dev channel.



That is good to know.



For a browser to display svg inline it needs an 'html5' parser.

Philippe



Yes, I learned that elsewhere recently.

Really, I think HTML5 has made people think, *HTML5, the future*. Only 
if the people that have coded the HTML5 logo web knew how to use CSS 
without using invalid hacks for IE6, CSS resets and font-size freezing.





I guess this HTML5 movement will just sit well with the current movement 
of poor coding practices. I guess I show some of the cynicism of Philip 
(Ret.). :-)



--
Alan http://css-class.com/

Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
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Re: [css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Jan 19, 2011, at 7:55 PM, Alan Gresley wrote:

> But SVG can be used in HTML5 and be valid. Only works in IE9 and FF4b so far.
> 
> 

That works in WebKit nightly builds / Chrome 10 dev channel.

For a browser to display svg inline it needs an 'html5' parser.

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/





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Re: [css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Ingo Chao]

2011/1/19 Jukka K. Korpela :
> Barney Carroll wrote:
>
>> Without getting into the murky, esoteric waters of the nature of
>>  and text node layout handling, from my mucking about,
>> non-pseudo elements don't seem to accept any content value in webkit.
>
> According to the CSS 2.1 draft, the current de facto almost-standard for
> CSS, the content property only applies to :before and :after pseudoelements.
>
> The HTML5 draft makes free references to other drafts, such as CSS 3 drafts.
> It should not surprise the least that things there just don't work in
> browsers at present.

If the content property does not apply on br in Webkit, why does it
cause a bug in Webkit then?
Removing the content property in Webkit inspector gives a line break.
Sorry, I didn't try that before.

I think its a Webkit issue, of course a rather academic one.

Thanks to all for having a look.

Best
Ingo
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Re: [css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Alan Gresley]

On 19/01/2011 9:34 PM, Barney Carroll wrote:


I was making light
of the W3C trivialising the value of its own specs while conflating
terminology (you'll notice they also say SVG and WOFF are now part of HTML5,
which is pure nonsense) in a way redolent of the most ignorant, obfuscatory,
hype-fed, marketing-minded idiots of the front-end world. Taking the mick.



But SVG can be used in HTML5 and be valid. Only works in IE9 and FF4b so 
far.





For me, I will still code in XHTML fashion but just use . 
The best of both worlds.



--
Alan http://css-class.com/

Armies Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come. - Victor Hugo
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Re: [css-d] drop down vertical nav?

[Bobby Jack]

--- On Wed, 1/19/11, Tim Climis  wrote:

> From: Tim Climis 
> Subject: Re: [css-d] drop down vertical nav?
> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
> Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 1:14 AM
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2011 6:33:03
> pm Matthew P. Johnson wrote:
> > -Original Message-
> > From: css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org
> > [mailto:css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org]
> On Behalf Of Matthew P.
> > Johnson Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 3:31 PM
> > To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
> > Subject: [css-d] drop down vertical nav?
> > 
> > Can a drop down effect for a nav be created using pure
> css?
> > 
> 
> No.  The issue here is that CSS has no "after click"
> state.  
> 
> It could (in theory -- I haven't tried) do this if you
> wanted the folder to 
> extend when you hover over it (:hover), or when you tab on
> to it with the 
> keyboard (:focus) (including the graphics), but it can't do
> it on a click.  

:focus *will* apply on *some* elements when you click them. Links, for example. 
So a link with a fragment identifier will have its :focus style applied when 
clicked. Whether this could actually be used to solve the original problem is 
another matter, of course.


- Bobby
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Re: [css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Gabriele Romanato]

Just made this test:

http://dev.css-zibaldone.com/tests/css-discuss/line-breaks-generated-content.xml

it doesn't work per se, because in XML browsers follow CSS specs ad  
litteram.

It only works if you add display: block to the element :-)

HTH :-)

http://www.css-zibaldone.com
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/test/  (English)
http://www.css-zibaldone.com/articles/  (English)
http://onwebdev.blogspot.com/  (English)








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Re: [css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Barney Carroll wrote:

[long snip]


So while I sympathise with your reticence as to the shallow-minded,
naive, obscurantist hype surrounding 'HTML5', the HTML5 spec has given
me all sorts of wonderful stuff I'm not about to dismiss…


Fine, all understood, end of thread-digression :-)
** Phil.
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Re: [css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Barney Carroll]

Sorry Philip,

I realise that if taken literally, my email would imply that the decision
tree in your choosing which technologies to work with depends on whether or
not you could, as a result, wear stupid t-shirts with enthusiasm and a clear
conscience. Not the case, sorry for the ultra-dry humour. I was making light
of the W3C trivialising the value of its own specs while conflating
terminology (you'll notice they also say SVG and WOFF are now part of HTML5,
which is pure nonsense) in a way redolent of the most ignorant, obfuscatory,
hype-fed, marketing-minded idiots of the front-end world. Taking the mick.

Personally, I find HTML5's new input types (search, email, date, etc)
incredibly useful, especially for mobile devices where quick, rich input and
forms in general are often a nightmare. Seeing as they fall back to standard
type=text inputs on non-supporting browsers, I'm quite happy to use these
now; Video is absolutely fantastic, and I am already making great use of it
(with Flash fall-back) — again this is essential for modern mobile devices
and a great step forward in eschewing plugins. The simplified doctype with
definition omission and other trivial reductions in verbosity (charset
definition, script type omission) are nice but ultimately no great
game-changer; data-x attributes are useful, but again I didn't really need
their permission to use custom attributes; Local storage, while arguably a
JavaScript extension, falls under the banner, and I'm looking forward to
make serious use of this (once again, serious applications for mobile web).

So while I sympathise with your reticence as to the shallow-minded, naive,
obscurantist hype surrounding 'HTML5', the HTML5 spec has given me all sorts
of wonderful stuff I'm not about to dismiss…


Regards,
Barney Carroll

barney.carr...@gmail.com
07594 506 381


On 19 January 2011 10:07, Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) <
p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk> wrote:

>
>
> Barney Carroll wrote:
>
>> Philip,
>>
>> there is no reason at all to adopt it [HTML5]
>>
>> Stop being so cynical.
>>
>
> Cynical, Barney ?  No, just realistic.
>
>  What about these awesome badges/t-shirts?
>> http://www.w3.org/html/logo/
>>
>
> No comment needed.
>
> ? And the fact that CSS3 is now part of HTML5?
>
> What does "part of" mean in the context of two provisional
> specifications, each addressing a very different domain,
> and each being tackled by a different working group ?
>
> Philip Taylor
>
>
>
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[css-d] HTML5 and CSS3

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Barney Carroll wrote:

Philip,

there is no reason at all to adopt it [HTML5]

Stop being so cynical.


Cynical, Barney ?  No, just realistic.


What about these awesome badges/t-shirts?
http://www.w3.org/html/logo/


No comment needed.

? And the fact that CSS3 is now part of HTML5?

What does "part of" mean in the context of two provisional
specifications, each addressing a very different domain,
and each being tackled by a different working group ?

Philip Taylor


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Re: [css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Barney Carroll wrote:


Without getting into the murky, esoteric waters of the nature of
 and text node layout handling, from my mucking about,
non-pseudo elements don't seem to accept any content value in webkit.


According to the CSS 2.1 draft, the current de facto almost-standard for 
CSS, the content property only applies to :before and :after pseudoelements.


The HTML5 draft makes free references to other drafts, such as CSS 3 drafts. 
It should not surprise the least that things there just don't work in 
browsers at present.


(Of course, _some_ features described in CSS 3 drafts, or HTML5 drafts, are 
fairly well supported in important browsers and/or degrade well on 
non-supporting browsers, and can therefore be used in practical authoring. 
But the drafts don't tell which features might actually work; they are 
drafts for specifications.)


--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 


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Re: [css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Barney Carroll]

Philip,

there is no reason at all to adopt it


Stop being so cynical. What about these awesome badges/t-shirts? And the
fact that CSS3 is now part of HTML5? Eh?

http://www.w3.org/html/logo/


Ingo,

Without getting into the murky, esoteric waters of the nature of  and
text node layout handling, from my mucking about, non-pseudo elements don't
seem to accept any content value in webkit…

Regards,
Barney Carroll

barney.carr...@gmail.com
07594 506 381


On 19 January 2011 09:02, Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) <
p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk> wrote:

>
>
> Ingo Chao wrote:
>
>  HTML5:Rendering:Punctuation and decorations
>> says
>>   br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; }
>>
>> But this doesn't seem to work in Safari and Chrome:
>> http://www.satzansatz.de/w3/break.html
>>
>> Who is wrong?
>>
>
> Neither ?  HTML 5 was, the last time I looked, simply
> "work in progress"; there is no reason at all to adopt
> it (unless you want to be one of the early adopters)
> nor to expect any browser to support anything contained
> therein.  Unless/until HTML 5 becomes a formal W3C
> specification, I would strongly recommend sticking with
> HTML 4.01 Strict.
>
> Philip Taylor
>
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Re: [css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Jan 19, 2011, at 5:46 PM, Ingo Chao wrote:

> HTML5:Rendering:Punctuation and decorations
> says
>  br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; }
> 
> But this doesn't seem to work in Safari and Chrome:
> http://www.satzansatz.de/w3/break.html
> 
> Who is wrong?

Might be a bug in WebKit ? Or something not implemented (yet). WebKit had a few 
issues with the  element as described by html5.

On Jan 19, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:

> Neither ?  HTML 5 was, the last time I looked, simply
> "work in progress"; there is no reason at all to adopt
> it (unless you want to be one of the early adopters)
> nor to expect any browser to support anything contained
> therein.  Unless/until HTML 5 becomes a formal W3C
> specification, I would strongly recommend sticking with
> HTML 4.01 Strict.

I'll happily stick with HTML5.


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/





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Re: [css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Philip Taylor (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Ingo Chao wrote:


HTML5:Rendering:Punctuation and decorations
says
   br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; }

But this doesn't seem to work in Safari and Chrome:
http://www.satzansatz.de/w3/break.html

Who is wrong?


Neither ?  HTML 5 was, the last time I looked, simply
"work in progress"; there is no reason at all to adopt
it (unless you want to be one of the early adopters)
nor to expect any browser to support anything contained
therein.  Unless/until HTML 5 becomes a formal W3C
specification, I would strongly recommend sticking with
HTML 4.01 Strict.

Philip Taylor
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[css-d] br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; } in Webkit

[Ingo Chao]

HTML5:Rendering:Punctuation and decorations
says
  br { content: '\A'; white-space: pre; }

But this doesn't seem to work in Safari and Chrome:
http://www.satzansatz.de/w3/break.html

Who is wrong?

Ingo
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