Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:11 am, Kathy Wheeler wrote: On 16/10/2006, at 10:30 AM, michael ensor wrote: As someone who worked as a proof reader on a morning newspaper in the hot metal days, I can tell you that the double space after a period was a function of the typesetting machines, because the full stop slug and the following capital letter 'created' that appearance, not some received style guideline. Interesting. However I seem to remember that my mother, who was trained as a secretarial typist just after WW2, was meticulous about using double spacing after the period. This was with old fashioned mechanical typewriters and paper in an office situation. Nothing to do with press or pre-press. IMHO although unnecessary it may be, double-spacing after the period does improve the legibility and feel of typography. It would be nice if there were some simple way, with CSS perhaps, to allow for double spacing for those who cared, without affecting those who don't give a hoot. Cheers, KathyW. IMHO, the only reason that the double spacing appears in US based material is because of the standard font point size used in the US. Standard font sizes used in the rest of the world are larger and more easily read than the dense 10 pt preferred in the US. As Michael has correctly pointed out the illusion of a second space in hot metal typesetting was the positioning of the full stop (and other punctuation if I remember correctly from my print estimator days) towards the left of the metal slug and not central like all the other characters. Heavy text sites should be encouraged to use slightly larger fonts and more white space to make the page/screen more readable. Quality over quantity always wins :-) -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0) ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V_/_ Linux Powered! Registered Linux User #355382 __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
I've looked around for a stable solution which doesn't involve putting
nbsp, emsp; etc all over the content (that's presentational :-) ) and
can only come up with using the old s tag (for strikeout):
s{
padding-right: 1em;
text-decoration : none;
}
then, blah blahs./sblah blah. It seems to work, but I'd be grateful
if someone could check it in odd browsers such as Lynx (Rene?). You can
see a working test here:
http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh2007/locations/constantine/doublespace.html
Note: it needs a trans doctype if it's to validate . . .
Thanks.
--
Best Regards,
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
On Oct 13, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Austin, Darrel wrote: Is there a way in CSS to turn a single space after a period into a double space - without using nbsp; (the no break HTML code)? The drawback to using nbsp;, besides having to type it in, is that if a sentence in the middle of a paragraph starts on a new line, that line is indented by a space, which throws off the look of the whole paragraph. With CSS? No. And while you could do it server side or via javascript, you'd still run into the issue you mention where you could get the odd indent. FYI, you shouldn't be doing this anyway. Most agree that it's not proper typography (though there's a few hold-outs...namely High School English teachers...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_spacing Anything I read in wikipedia is, by definition, suspect. So instead I decided to get out my tools and do some research. I selected some books and magazines from my library and measured. The books came from several fields, including but not limited to web design, theology, woodworking, and writing, and all from different publishers, just to be sure that the preference of one field or publisher wouldn't skew the data. In most of the books, there was very little detectable difference between the space after a period and the space between words on the same line (I add that qualifier, because most of the typography in the books was justified, hence the spacing would vary from line to line). The interesting variable here is that the writing book (and The Writer magazine, which I also tested) had a slightly larger space after the sentence, though nothing as large as twice the space between words. The data tends to indicate a preference for single spacing exists among publishers, people who should be aware of readability issues. John Rhodes (ACM SIGCHI [Special Interest Group for Computer - Human Interaction]) wrote there was no empirical evidence that either method was better than the other (people tended to skip over spaces, regardless of length). Meaning neither side of this position gets to play the improves readability card. So the question boils down to one of aesthetics. Personally, I dislike the extra space. My eye tends to get lost when it encounters the extra space, and it annoys me when I encounter it. But I freely admit this is simply anecdotal, and other people may have other reactions. So the choice of one or two spaces is personal taste. Now, how to accomplish it? It's possible, through regular expressions, to add nbsp; as content after every period in a paragraph. But that brings us to some interesting problems, which will exist in any sort of automated approach. I think the problems make it impractical, so I don't include a sample expression because of that. To do it properly requires the ability to understand what a sentence is, or at least recognize one when seen, which most web editing software cannot do reliably. The first obvious problem is what about sentences that don't, in fact, end in a period? (The previous sentence is a great example, but there are more insidious ones.) I suppose you could do the same for all punctuation marks that end a sentence, but even then you're not finished. I can hear someone in the back of the room asking what about sentences that end with quotation marks? (Note how smoothly I worked that example in.) Quotation marks are supposed to come after the punctuation, but often they reside inside a sentence, so they will cause problems for any automated insertion. (As any alert reader may have already noticed, parentheses also fit this category, as you'd want to add the two spaces after the closing paren, not between it and the period.) I think there are enough exceptions (abbreviations create periods that don't end sentences, to name another) to cause insurmountable problems for any automated insertion; probably the best method is to type the two spaces, then before finishing, do a global search and replace for double spaces into an entity or combination of entities. (I'd probably start with the numeric entity 8195, the emspace.) This thread also contained an unfortunate comment dismissing the problem a screen reader had with the nbsp entity as just a bug in the screen reader, therefore not the designer's problem. I wonder if the commenter takes the same attitude to browser bugs. So what if IE/ Firefox/Safari can't display this properly. That's a bug in the browser so It's not my problem! Some have brought up style guides as authorities. I suspect you can pile up the references to an equal depth on both sides. MLA and Chicago both officially say one space after a period. (I mention this only because one commenter claimed Chicago says two spaces, so I'll adduce the URL: http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/ OneSpaceorTwo/OneSpaceorTwo02.html) Chicago also says some people prefer
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Designer wrote: I've looked around for a stable solution which doesn't involve putting nbsp, emsp; etc all over the content (that's presentational :-) ) and can only come up with using the old s tag (for strikeout): What about just a span with a class, eg: With old printing, there used to be a larger space after the periodspan class=doublespace./span But nowadays that space has disappeared and thus people have started to add 2 spaces after the periodspan class=doublespace./span Note: it needs a trans doctype if it's to validate . . . That way you don't need a transitional doctype. Raoul. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFNOQxquTvBX+BiJYRAkmsAJ9NVqSKl+ZM6KpXmKZQaRlHHWtWVwCgy37i BtoNHs/i8tinVJqbjUVuCL0= =Njdd -END PGP SIGNATURE- __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
I've looked around for a stable solution which doesn't
involve putting nbsp, emsp; etc all over the content
(that's presentational :-) ) and can only come up with using
the old s tag (for strikeout):
s{
padding-right: 1em;
text-decoration : none;
}
Strikeout implies something specific.
This isn't a semantic issue, merely stylistic. As such, I'd use a span
tag instead.
-Darrel
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Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
I didn't attack anyone. These lists exist for the criticism and discussion of ideas. I made a criticism of something you and others had posted. On 16/10/2006, at 12:51 PM, Chris Williams wrote: Who's attacking who? I provided a way to do it (a hack to you), that does it reliably for me. I was asked to provide that to the list. I did. You attacked it as messy and complicated with little value. From: Chris McLay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why am I raising this? Because all these fixes are very messy and complicated for something which has little value to the reader of your web site. -- Chris McLay ...// interaction visual designer Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web http://www.eeoh.com.au/chris/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period]]
Chris Williams wrote:
I have this problem, and I use nbsp;space and not nbsp;nbsp;.
I find that works, and I haven't seen the space at the beginning
problem. It seems that UA's can handle the nbsp; at the end of the
line OK. I do this replacement with a simple regex in my PHP code.
HTH,
Chris
PS -- it is very correct, it is NOT something for old English teachers.
The Chicago manual, the latest Strunk and White editions, and many
others, still use it. Just because a random entry in Wikipedia and the
AP don't do it, doesn't mean it's not right... And browsers don't do it
because it's easier to collapse all spaces, not because it's right.
__
declare:
i {padding-right : 1em; }
then use i./i in the text. Not brilliant, certainly not semantic,
but it seems to work. I wanted to avoid a long 'span' and use a simple
(short) tag.
I doubt that anyone can spot an italicised period. . :-) !
Anyone any good (better) suggestions?
--
Best Regards,
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
--
Best Regards,
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
--
Best Regards,
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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Re: [css-d] Double space after a period]]
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 13:15:59 +0100
Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
declare:
i {padding-right : 1em; }
then use i./i in the text. Not brilliant, certainly not semantic,
but it seems to work. I wanted to avoid a long 'span' and use a simple
(short) tag.
I doubt that anyone can spot an italicised period. . :-) !
you could also apply a style to make the period not be italicised too.
Maybe I missed the point, but why not use nbsp; in this case?
I thought the idea was that the text was being inserted without formatting, and
that the author is
looking for a way to apply two spaces to as typed text that otherwise is
having whitespace
compressed. The first 3 thoughts I had would not work. I then went to using
unobtrusive
javascript to fix the markup after it's delivered to the browser, (assuming
server-side
intervention is not possible) but that is definately not a CSS solution.
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Re: [css-d] Double space after a period]]
Hi... I am new to this list and to CSS so I am not sure if my suggestion is even in the ball park. It does seem to me though, that you could use white-space:pre; and then make whatever extra spaces you want in the content in the code window. It should follow your spacing and layout exactly. regards...Carol -- Carol M. Brizzi Sample the Telly award winning The 5th Season. Go to http://www.primalwaters.com In the desert of stress...an oasis of calm. Primal Waters is a subsidiary of Blue Crow Studio Inc. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period]]
On 10/16/06, Carol Brizzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi... I am new to this list and to CSS so I am not sure if my suggestion is even in the ball park. It does seem to me though, that you could use white-space:pre; and then make whatever extra spaces you want in the content in the code window. It should follow your spacing and layout exactly. Unfortunately that would have the effect of stopping the text from wrapping. Each paragraph would be one very long line. Also, most authors tend to indent their markup with tabs in order to simplify reading and debugging of sourc code - you wouldn't want that indentation reflected in the output. -- Richard Grevers, New Plymouth, New Zealand Hat 1: Development Engineer, Webfarm Ltd. Hat 2: Dramatic Design www.dramatic.co.nz __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
PS -- it is very correct, it is NOT something for old English teachers. The Chicago manual, the latest Strunk and White editions, and many others, still use it. Just because a random entry in Wikipedia and the AP don't do it, doesn't mean it's not right... And browsers don't do it because it's easier to collapse all spaces, not because it's right. It became popular for an technology which is now rarely used, and it is not right neither is it wrong, just unnecessary. Some places still require it, most don't. Modern typography does not require two spaces to remain legible - which is the reason for doing it. Why am I raising this? Because all these fixes are very messy and complicated for something which has little value to the reader of your web site. If you need something with double spaces following a period, then put it in an RTF file and let them download the file set as you want. See reference from MLA Style Guide FAQ below: How many spaces should I leave after a period or other concluding mark of punctuation? Publications in the United States today usually have the same spacing after a punctuation mark as between words on the same line. Since word processors make available the same fonts used by typesetters for printed works, many writers, influenced by the look of typeset publications, now leave only one space after a concluding punctuation mark. In addition, most publishers' guidelines for preparing a manuscript on disk ask authors to type only the spaces that are to appear in print. Because it is increasingly common for papers and manuscripts to be prepared with a single space after all punctuation marks, this spacing is shown in the examples in the MLA Handbook and the MLA Style Manual. As a practical matter, however, there is nothing wrong with using two spaces after concluding punctuation marks unless an instructor or editor requests that you do otherwise. - http://www.mla.org/style/style_faq/style_faq3 __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Thank you for your opinion. It is my opinion that my text-heavy site is vastly more readable with double spaces after the period. And the fix is hardly messy and complicated (simple preg_replace functions). Many references prefer it, I've found few if any that say don't. Most say what your chosen reference below says there is nothing wrong with it. (Sounds like a Seinfeld episode not that there's anything wrong with that... :) ). From: Chris McLay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [css-d] Double space after a period Why am I raising this? Because all these fixes are very messy and complicated for something which has little value to the reader of your web site. As a practical matter, however, there is nothing wrong with using two spaces after concluding punctuation marks __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
On 16/10/2006, at 7:54 AM, Chris Williams wrote: Thank you for your opinion. It is my opinion that my text-heavy site is vastly more readable with double spaces after the period. And the fix is hardly messy and complicated (simple preg_replace functions). Simple for some, yes, but not for many. Many references prefer it, I've found few if any that say don't. Most say what your chosen reference below says there is nothing wrong with it. (Sounds like a Seinfeld episode not that there's anything wrong with that... :) ). Practically there is nothing wrong with it, but it's not very correct as was claimed, and the increase in legibility and readability is debatable. There are easier ways to improve legibility in print and on the web that don't require hacks (using a non breaking space where that is not what you mean) or regular expressions. -- Chris McLay ...// interaction visual designer Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web http://www.eeoh.com.au/chris/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Excuse me, a non-breaking space is EXACTLY what I mean... From: Chris McLay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [css-d] Double space after a period ... that don't require hacks (using a non breaking space where that is not what you mean) __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
As someone who worked as a proof reader on a morning newspaper in the hot metal days, I can tell you that the double space after a period was a function of the typesetting machines, because the full stop slug and the following capital letter 'created' that appearance, not some received style guideline. - Original Message - From: Chris McLay To: Chris Williams Cc: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [css-d] Double space after a period : PS -- it is very correct, it is NOT something for old English : teachers. : The Chicago manual, the latest Strunk and White editions, and many : others, still use it. Just because a random entry in Wikipedia and : the : AP don't do it, doesn't mean it's not right... And browsers don't : do it : because it's easier to collapse all spaces, not because it's right. : : It became popular for an technology which is now rarely used, and it : is not right neither is it wrong, just unnecessary. Some places : still require it, most don't. Modern typography does not require two : spaces to remain legible - which is the reason for doing it. : : Why am I raising this? Because all these fixes are very messy and : complicated for something which has little value to the reader of : your web site. If you need something with double spaces following a : period, then put it in an RTF file and let them download the file set : as you want. : : See reference from MLA Style Guide FAQ below: : How many spaces should I leave after a period or other concluding : mark of punctuation? : : Publications in the United States today usually have the same : spacing after a punctuation mark as between words on the same line. : Since word processors make available the same fonts used by : typesetters for printed works, many writers, influenced by the look : of typeset publications, now leave only one space after a : concluding punctuation mark. In addition, most publishers' : guidelines for preparing a manuscript on disk ask authors to type : only the spaces that are to appear in print. : : Because it is increasingly common for papers and manuscripts to be : prepared with a single space after all punctuation marks, this : spacing is shown in the examples in the MLA Handbook and the MLA : Style Manual. As a practical matter, however, there is nothing : wrong with using two spaces after concluding punctuation marks : unless an instructor or editor requests that you do otherwise. : : - http://www.mla.org/style/style_faq/style_faq3 : __ : css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d : IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 : List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ : Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ : : : : -- : No virus found in this incoming message. : Checked by AVG Free Edition. : Version: 7.0.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: 13/10/06 : : -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/476 - Release Date: 14/10/06 __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
No it's not. You want a larger space for legibility. This used to be done on some systems by a space followed by a another space. Which HTML renders as a single space. On other systems there (as mentioned in another post) was a fixed space as part of the full stop, or the use of a larger space such as an em-space (emsp;) Using space space or em-space would be fine, but non-breaking- space space is not what you meant, but is required to make browsers do what you want - therefore a hack... On 16/10/2006, at 8:28 AM, Chris Williams wrote: Excuse me, a non-breaking space is EXACTLY what I mean... From: Chris McLay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [css-d] Double space after a period ... that don't require hacks (using a non breaking space where that is not what you mean) -- Chris McLay ...// interaction visual designer Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web http://www.eeoh.com.au/chris/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
On 16/10/2006, at 10:30 AM, michael ensor wrote: As someone who worked as a proof reader on a morning newspaper in the hot metal days, I can tell you that the double space after a period was a function of the typesetting machines, because the full stop slug and the following capital letter 'created' that appearance, not some received style guideline. Interesting. However I seem to remember that my mother, who was trained as a secretarial typist just after WW2, was meticulous about using double spacing after the period. This was with old fashioned mechanical typewriters and paper in an office situation. Nothing to do with press or pre-press. IMHO although unnecessary it may be, double-spacing after the period does improve the legibility and feel of typography. It would be nice if there were some simple way, with CSS perhaps, to allow for double spacing for those who cared, without affecting those who don't give a hoot. Cheers, KathyW. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Accepted and very correct have two different definitions as far as I'm concerned (how can something be very correct anyway?) Would creating a hack to force the display of two spaces not be akin to using tags improperly (such as using a h1 tag simply to make big text)? I do agree that with mono space fonts, two spaces makes a huge difference, but I don't recall seeing mono space fonts on a website any time recently... Just my thoughts... Zach On 10/13/06, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have this problem, and I use nbsp;space and not nbsp;nbsp;. I find that works, and I haven't seen the space at the beginning problem. It seems that UA's can handle the nbsp; at the end of the line OK. I do this replacement with a simple regex in my PHP code. HTH, Chris PS -- it is very correct, it is NOT something for old English teachers. The Chicago manual, the latest Strunk and White editions, and many others, still use it. Just because a random entry in Wikipedia and the AP don't do it, doesn't mean it's not right... And browsers don't do it because it's easier to collapse all spaces, not because it's right. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Please stop telling me what I want. I want two spaces. Period (pun intended). I want the width of the white space following a full stop to be exactly twice the width of the space between words. That is, two spaces in the current font. Therefore, I want a browser to give me two spaces, one guaranteed to be contiguous to the preceding character, and one that it is free to break on to the next line. The first one is, therefore, a non-breaking space, the second one is a normal, breakable space. From: Chris McLay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [css-d] Double space after a period No it's not. You want a larger space for legibility. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Chris Williams wrote: Please stop telling me what I want. I want two spaces. Period (pun intended). I want the width of the white space following a full stop to be exactly twice the width of the space between words. That is, two spaces in the current font. Therefore, I want a browser to give me two spaces, one guaranteed to be contiguous to the preceding character, and one that it is free to break on to the next line. The first one is, therefore, a non-breaking space, the second one is a normal, breakable space. From: Chris McLay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [css-d] Double space after a period No it's not. You want a larger space for legibility. Two more cents worth: while you are correct in asserting that as the designer you have the right to design the page as you see fit, there is one ua that is often neglected in discussions of this nature. That ua is the text-to-speech converter that the blind rely on to surf web pages. If you run your page through one of these (in Windows, the HTML-kit editor has it), you will hear it faithfully pronounce ampersand-n-b-s-p-semicolon in its inimical deadpan synthetic voice, on every single instance. Having once run a page that was created by a clueless Frontpage user through the text-to-speech converter, I couldn't shut the thing off fast enough. That taught me a lesson and I now will never again use that non-breaking space, period (also intended). You, however, have the right to do as you wish. ~M __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Then it also must have problems with the many instances of other special characters (rdquo;, #8320;, etc., etc.) Many web pages have dozens of these. The Google homepage, arguably the most visited page on the web, has a couple dozen nbsp; and another few raquo; characters. This is, therefore, a poorly implemented reader. Not my problem. From: Mark Szymanski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [css-d] Double space after a period If you run your page through one of these (in Windows, the HTML-kit editor has it), you will hear it faithfully pronounce ampersand-n-b-s-p-semicolon in its inimical deadpan synthetic voice, on every single instance. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Stop picking up tiny bits of what I write to get angry about. Read all of what I've written and you'll see I haven't actually told you to do or not do anything in any of my messages. What I wrote in my email (all of it) matches what you've written below. Simply: - you want two spaces, which is in effect a larger space - web browsers don't render two spaces, or the large em-space consistently - therefore a hack is required to make the browsers do what you want My original point was that the use of, and requirement for, two spaces is not correct or right, it is a personal preference, or very rarely a requirement of a publisher. As it requires a hack, it may have unintended consequences - such as in screen readers, or in justified type. On 16/10/2006, at 11:49 AM, Chris Williams wrote: Please stop telling me what I want. I want two spaces. Period (pun intended). I want the width of the white space following a full stop to be exactly twice the width of the space between words. That is, two spaces in the current font. Therefore, I want a browser to give me two spaces, one guaranteed to be contiguous to the preceding character, and one that it is free to break on to the next line. The first one is, therefore, a non-breaking space, the second one is a normal, breakable space. From: Chris McLay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [css-d] Double space after a period No it's not. You want a larger space for legibility. -- Chris McLay ...// interaction visual designer Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web http://www.eeoh.com.au/chris/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Who's attacking who? I provided a way to do it (a hack to you), that does it reliably for me. I was asked to provide that to the list. I did. You attacked it as messy and complicated with little value. From: Chris McLay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [css-d] Double space after a period Why am I raising this? Because all these fixes are very messy and complicated for something which has little value to the reader of your web site. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
couldnt you just set paragraph elements to preserve whitespace? just dont get indent-happy in the source of the paragraphs. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Now that I'm not trying to type from my cellphone, I can post an example: http://www.kennygraham.net/wsg_cssd/whitespace.html On 10/14/06, Kenny Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: couldnt you just set paragraph elements to preserve whitespace? just dont get indent-happy in the source of the paragraphs. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
nevermind forgot about it breaking wordwrap. :( On 10/14/06, Kenny Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that I'm not trying to type from my cellphone, I can post an example: http://www.kennygraham.net/wsg_cssd/whitespace.html On 10/14/06, Kenny Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: couldnt you just set paragraph elements to preserve whitespace? just dont get indent-happy in the source of the paragraphs. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
I know there are ways in things like PHP to accomplish this (I know, I just did this for something). Perhaps you need to look at dealing with this before you apply CSS to the data. (I can give you some PHP code if you are interested). -- Kevin Murphy Webmaster: Information and Marketing Services Western Nevada Community College www.wncc.edu 775-445-3326 On Oct 13, 2006, at 2:02 PM, Ted wrote: Is there a way in CSS to turn a single space after a period into a double space - without using nbsp; (the no break HTML code)? The drawback to using nbsp;, besides having to type it in, is that if a sentence in the middle of a paragraph starts on a new line, that line is indented by a space, which throws off the look of the whole paragraph. Thanks, Ted __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Yes, the PHP route suggested is a good suggestion. Also, browsers render nbsp; differently. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Is there a way in CSS to turn a single space after a period into a double space - without using nbsp; (the no break HTML code)? The drawback to using nbsp;, besides having to type it in, is that if a sentence in the middle of a paragraph starts on a new line, that line is indented by a space, which throws off the look of the whole paragraph. With CSS? No. And while you could do it server side or via javascript, you'd still run into the issue you mention where you could get the odd indent. FYI, you shouldn't be doing this anyway. Most agree that it's not proper typography (though there's a few hold-outs...namely High School English teachers...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_spacing -Darrel __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
Is there a way in CSS to turn a single space after a period into a double space - without using nbsp; (the no break HTML code)? The drawback to using nbsp;, besides having to type it in, is that if a sentence in the middle of a paragraph starts on a new line, that line is indented by a space, which throws off the look of the whole paragraph. One option just occurred to me...via server-side code, you could search for every period and replace it with: span class=frenchSpace./span Then, in your css, you could give that a padding-right of say, 1em. That should give you what you want without the issue of the nbsp; indents. Granted, it's still not proper typography IMHO. ;o) -Darrel __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Double space after a period
I have this problem, and I use nbsp;space and not nbsp;nbsp;. I find that works, and I haven't seen the space at the beginning problem. It seems that UA's can handle the nbsp; at the end of the line OK. I do this replacement with a simple regex in my PHP code. HTH, Chris PS -- it is very correct, it is NOT something for old English teachers. The Chicago manual, the latest Strunk and White editions, and many others, still use it. Just because a random entry in Wikipedia and the AP don't do it, doesn't mean it's not right... And browsers don't do it because it's easier to collapse all spaces, not because it's right. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7b2 testing hub -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
