[CTRL] Global Warming: Socialisms Trojan Horse

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

~~for educational purposes only~~
[Title 17 U.S.C. section 107]

Global Warming: Socialism’s Trojan Horse
by Eric Englund

On February 14, 2002, President Bush provided details for
his plan to combat global warming. The cornerstone of his
plan is to promote voluntary reductions in greenhouse gas
emissions. Naturally, environmentalists were outraged that
President Bush refused to adhere to the Kyoto Treaty. It
is President Bush’s contention that the Kyoto protocol would
cost nearly 5,000,000 jobs in the U.S. alone. Of course,
environmentalists claimed that there is a bigger picture
here. All people, especially those living in industrialized
countries such as the U.S., must sacrifice in order to win
the universal struggle against global warming. As we have
seen over the past three decades, environmentalists have
succeeded in eroding property rights in the United States in
order to protect Mother Earth as they see fit (i.e. through
the Clean Water Act, through the Endangered Species Act,
through ridiculous wetlands legislation, through air quality
laws, etc). Whether or not President Bush understands this,
the real struggle is between liberty and totalitarianism.
For if environmentalists succeed in gradually taking away
our private property rights, then a free market and liberty
cannot exist. Thus, it is my contention that the struggle
against environmentalism is actually a struggle for liberty
(using the classical liberal definition).

Undoubtedly, environmentalists will take exception to being
called illiberal socialists (but I repeat myself). Perhaps
there are those of you who are alarmed about global warming
and sympathize with the environmental/green movement. My
response is for you to be careful with whom you associate;
which leads me to provide the following quote from Dr. George
Reisman’s magnum opus Capitalism:

  ... it should not be surprising to see hordes of former
  Reds, or of those who otherwise would have become Reds,
  turning from Marxism and becoming the Greens of the
  ecology movement. It is the same fundamental philosophy
  in a different guise, ready as ever to wage war on the
  freedom and well-being of the individual.

So who are these former Reds who have converted to Green
Socialism? One excellent example is Mikhail Gorbachev. Mr.
Gorbachev is now the president of Green Cross International
(a non-governmental environmental organization). Among the
many issues with which Green Cross International has become
involved, global warming is right at the top of its list.
Gosh, when Mikhail Gorbachev, Ronald Reagan, and Margaret
Thatcher became so chummy in the mid-1980s, I never once
heard the Soviet dictator express concern about the environment.
Clearly, Mr. Gorbachev has identified environmentalism as a
Trojan horse capable of resurrecting socialism on a global
scale.

How can I say that about Mikhail Gorbachev? Didn’t he bring
glasnost (freedom of speech) and perestroika (economic and
political reforms) to the Soviet Union? Indeed he did. Yet,
these were means to his end of trying to save Soviet Communism
and, therefore, to save his absolute and unspeakable power
(that brought human misery to millions).

Perhaps I am being too harsh on Mr. Gorbachev? To this I
simply respond, read Requiem for Marx (edited by Yuri N.
Maltsev). Dr. Maltsev was a reformist member of the Institute
of Economics of the Soviet Academy of Sciences until he defected
in 1989 (he now is an Associate Professor of economics at
Carthage College and is a senior fellow of the Ludwig von Mises
Institute). In writing the introduction to this excellent book,
Dr. Maltsev states: Gorbachev never learned economics in school.
In all my dealings with him I had never seen even a slight flash
of economic insight, or even the desire to learn more about
economics. He preferred to think like a communist: everything
can be done by issuing orders and demanding obedience, no matter
how perverse, contrary to human nature, and brutal they may be.
This certainly isn’t the image painted by the United States’
adoring press corps. Gorbachev seems to be so nice.

To this I respond with another excerpt (regarding the nice Mr.
Gorbachev) from Yuri Maltsev’s introduction in Requiem for Marx:

  What he did in the Baltic States – authorizing the Soviet
  military to crack the skulls of innocent people in the
  Baltics – qualified him to be included among history’s
  litany of murderous rulers, but he was never included.
  Even while he was heralded in the West as a great reformer,
  he was also running labor camps, committing human rights
  violations, and sending people to prison for speech
  crimes. As the Soviet Union came to an end, the public
  had been reduced to a collective of hunter gatherers,
  barely living at a subsistence level.

Maybe the former Soviet dictator has changed. Perhaps Mikhail
Gorbachev really does care about the environment and has no
interest in resurrecting socialism. To this, I simply refer
one 

[CTRL] The profits of doom

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

~~for educational purposes only~~
[Title 17 U.S.C. section 107]

The profits of doom
Matt Ridley celebrates Bjorn Lomborg, the environmentalist
brave enough to tell the truth — that the end is not nigh

At the Christmas cabaret in the politics department of Aarhus University
in Denmark last year, the cast members joined together at the end to sing
a song about one of the associate professors. ‘Bjorn, when will you come
back?’ went the refrain. ‘Don’t just get lost out in the world.’ (It was
better in Danish.)

Bjorn Lomborg — young, blond, piano-playing, but basically a statistics
nerd — may not be back soon. He has just succeeded Monsanto as the
official chief villain of the world environmental movement. In January
Scientific American devoted 11 pages to an unattractive attempt to
attack his work. He had a pie thrown in his face when he spoke in
Oxford last September.

The great and the good of greendom are competing to find epithets for
him: ‘Wilful ignorance, selective quotations, destructive campaigning,’
says E.O. Wilson, guru of biodiversity. ‘Lacks even a preliminary
understanding of the science in question,’ says Norman Myers, guru of
extinction. His book is ‘nothing more than a diatribe’, says Lester Brown,
serial predictor of imminent global famine. Stephen Schneider, high priest
of global warming, even berates Cambridge University Press for
publishing it.

What can this mild statistician have said to annoy these great men so? In
1996 he published an obscure but brilliant article on game theory, which
earned him an invitation to a conference on ‘computable economics’ in
Los Angeles (and an offer of a job at the University of California). While
browsing in a bookshop there he came across a profile in Wired
magazine of the late Julian Simon, an economist, who claimed, with
graphs, that on most measures the environment was improving, not
getting worse. Irritated, Lomborg went back to Denmark and set his
students the exercise of finding the flaw in Simon’s statistics.

They could find none. So Lomborg wrote The Skeptical Environmentalist,
which not only endorses most of Simon’s claims, but also goes further,
providing an immense compendium of factual evidence that the litany of
environmental gloom we hear is mostly either exaggerated (species
extinction, global warming) or wrong (population, air and water pollution,
natural resources, food and hunger, health and life-expectancy, waste,
forest loss).

You might think that environmentalists would welcome such news.
Having argued that we should find a way to live sustainably on the planet,
they ought to be pleased that population growth is falling faster (in
percentage and absolute terms) than anybody predicted even ten years
ago; that per-capita food production is rising rapidly, even in the
developing world; that all measures of air pollution are falling almost
everywhere; that oil, gas and minerals are not running out nearly as fast
as was predicted in the 1970s; and so on.

Instead they are beside themselves with fury. It cannot be Lomborg’s
politics that annoy them. He is leftish, concerned about world poverty,
and no fan of big business. It cannot be his recommendations: in favour
of renewable energy and worried about the pollution that is getting
worse. Vegetarian, he rides a bicycle and approves of Denmark’s
punitive car taxes. His sin — his heresy — is to be optimistic.

This is very threatening to lots of people’s livelihoods. The environmental
movement raises most of its funds through direct mail, paid advertising
and news coverage. A steady supply of peril is essential fuel for all three.
H.L. Mencken said, ‘The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the
populace alarmed — and hence clamorous to be led to safety — by
menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.’

For instance, remember acid rain in the 1980s and sperm counts in the
1990s? ‘There is no evidence of a general or unusual decline of forests in
the United States or Canada due to acid rain,’ concluded the official
independent study of the subject. Sperm counts are not falling. If you do
not believe me, look up the statistics. Lomborg did.

The media, too, prefer pessimism. When the United Nations panel on
global warming produced new estimates of the rise in temperature by
2100, they gave a range of 1.4 to 5.8°C. CNN, CBS, Time and the New
York Times all quoted only the high figure and omitted the low one.

An increasing number of scientists have vested interests in pessimism,
too. The study of global warming has brought them fame, funds, speaking
fees and room service. Lomborg’s crime is to rain on their parade.

In the Scientific American critique, four leading environmental scientists
lambasted Lomborg. The magazine refused Lomborg the right to reply in
the same issue, refused to post his response on its website immediately,
and threatened him for infringement of copyright when he tried to
reproduce their articles, with his 

Re: [CTRL] The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

InfoWarz
   It's funny how the real revisionists, such as Steven Morris,
   Ph.D., love to use the dubious term, Deist when
snip

MJ
It is far MORE humorous that apologists stick their thumbs
in their ear and their toungues out while wiggling their
fingers at those who present EVIDENCE contrary to their
indoctrinated beliefs ... rather than attempting to counter
those materials presented.

It would certainly be far more compelling if you proclaimed:

This author was incorrect when he claimed A because
of D, E and F.

OR

Insert Founder, a man who was involved with a, b
and c ... and did not simply hold a chair down on the
floor ... contributed X to the Constitution as he expounded
upon Book, Chapter and Verse of the Christian Bible
for its relevance/necessity.  His actual words can
be found in his letter to X or his document Y or the
Debates of the Convention or Several States Z.

Oh well.

Ever hear of or consider the Enlightenment?

Regard$,
--MJ

Without the pen of Paine, the sword of Washington would
have been wielded in vain.  -- John Adams

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice
of God against the evils of the Bible. -- Thomas Paine

The creation is the Bible of the Deist. He there reads, in the
handwriting of the Creator himself, the certainty of His existence
and the immutability of His power, and all other Bibles and Testaments
are to him forgeries. -- Thomas Paine

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Re: [CTRL] GOVERNMENT at work: America the Beautiful and it's 8 trillion economy.

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

Joshua
   America's Torrent of Need
  Nearly 30% of the nation's families with children simply can't make ends
  meet. So why are the government's poverty numbers so rosy?

MJ
TAXES, TAXES, TAXES.

Regard$,
--MJ

Federal government revenues rose ...
   from about $2/person in 1791,
   to about $3/person in 1860,
   to about $15/person at the peak of the war between the states,
   to about $8/person in 1910,
   to about $62/person at the peak of WW1,
   to about $2100/person in the 1980s,
   until it currently exceeds $8870/person.
 -- Congressional Budget Office (all figures in constant dollars)

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directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Re: [CTRL] Dictatorship From Within

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

William quoting  kirk
   After being elected by a minority of U.S. voters, and after vowing
   both before and after the election to pursue an agenda of
   conciliation and cooperation, the Bush administration has
   demonstrated a relentless quest for a radical and unpopular
   right-wing platform.
MJ
Right wing?  Please ... this putz is hardly different from Mr. Bill.

William quoting  kirk
On the environmental front, despite overwhelming popular
opposition, the administration has, among other things,
proposed to open up the national monument and wilderness
areas for gas and oil drilling for the sake of a few months'
snip
MJ
Alleged 'popular' support aside ... the Federal Government
should not (by its mandate) own or control the areas in the
first place.

William quoting  kirk
   In addition to these home-front issues, Bush has scuttled the Kyoto
   treaty, which attempted to limit the greenhouse gasses that represent
snip
MJ
Religious nonsense aside ... wasn't it a 95-0 Sentatorial vote under
Mr. Bill that 'scuttled' this (unconstitutional) treaty?


William quoting  kirk
On the moral front, despite a clear majority support for the right of
   individual choice, the Bush administration has initiated various
MJ
What 'majority' is this ... and why can't they seem to have the SAME
regard for those already born?


William quoting  kirk
   The administration is also attempting, through the guise of charity,
   to slide religious organizations under the federal funding mat,
   even at the cost of minority protections within those organizations.
MJ
God-based religions 'crowding' in to the unconstitutional trough
apparently bothers the OTHER religions already 'eating'.


William quoting  kirk
On the gun-control front, after thumbing his nose at the international
effort to control indiscriminate spreading of mostly U.S.-manufactured
small firearms, Attorney General John Ashcroft has elected to provide
snip
MJ
Not only has the US Government no Power To levy 'gun control' on
the Citizens  the Federal Government (and the States as extended
through Amendment 14) have a specific prohibition AGAINST this
sort of feel-good nonsense.


William quoting  kirk
While individuals may differ in their own views on each of these issues,
   the frightening thing about these events is not in the issues themselves,
   but the way in which the Bush administration is attempting to subvert
   the fundamental democratic process and the expressed will of the
   people of this country by embarking on Bush's own radical right-wing
   agenda, and doing it by insidious and surreptitious methods that attempt
   to avoid public scrutiny or opposition.
MJ
Again, there is LITTLE if any difference between THIS putz and
Mr. Bill.


William quoting  kirk
   In my recollection, there has been no administration in the past 70 years
   that has made such an overt attack on the constitutional democratic
   process,
snip
MJ
That you have no fucking clue of the Constitution aside ... EVERY
administration AND Congress AND Court has not only IGNORED
the Constitution and its processes 


Regard$,
--MJ

The Federal Government and its leadership over the last 60
years has been ignoring the Constitution in almost every
respect. -- Orin Hatch, U.S. Senator from Utah


If we stuck to the Constitution as written, we
would have: no federal meddling in our schools;
no Federal Reserve; no U.S. membership in the
UN; no gun control; and no foreign aid. We would
have no welfare for big corporations, or the
'poor'; no American troops in 100 foreign
countries; no NAFTA, GATT, or fast-track; no
arrogant federal judges usurping states rights;
no attacks on private property; no income tax.
We could get rid of most of the cabinet
departments, most of the agencies, and most
of the budget. The government would be small,
frugal, and limited. --- Representative Ron Paul

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Re: [CTRL] [OT] Report: President Bush Has Lowest IQ ofallPresidentsofPast ...

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

thew
just a quick note here
george w bush was appointed, and not elected

MJ
Only some Religious Myrmidons chant such absurdity.

Regard$,
--MJ

If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is
still a foolish thing. -- Anatole France

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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
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major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] CNNnews: Supreme Court Rules In Favor of School Religious Meetings

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

RevCoal
   I wonder how you and the rest of your so-called Christians
   will feel when this school system not only has to allow the
   Christian prayer group to meet in school facilities, but when
   non-Christian religious groups start demanding the same
   'right'...
MJ
Religion is taught WITHIN the Government School curriculum
today.

Now what?


RevCoal
   Will you be as happy when Muslims or Wiccans or Satanists
   hold their own prayer meetings in the school after hours?
MJ
Actually, I am not too 'happy' that the Environmentalists, the
PC Crowd OR the Big Government Religionists permeate
the Government Indoctrination Centers daily.


If religion has no place within the Government's Schools (which
it does NOT), then the Government cannot operate schools.


Regard$,
--MJ

A general state education is a mere contrivance for molding
people to be exactly like one another: and as the mold in
which it casts them is that which pleases the predominant
power in the government or the majority of the existing
generation; in proportion as it is efficient and successful,
it establishes a despostism over the mind, leading by natural
tendency to one over the body.  -- John Stuart Mill

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Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

 This is errant nonsense and statist sophistry.
Nessie
   Who said anything about statism? I don't think the
   government should run the schools, either. I just don't
   want to to see them fall into the hands of the corporations.
   That would be much, much worse.
MJ
You do comprehend Statism?

Not that you provide support for *any* of your drivel (as I remain
on vigil for your pre-socialist schools literacy details) ...

How will an education through 'cooperation' be WORSE than an
education by force?



Nessie
Personally, I'd prefer to see schools managed by parent-teacher
cooperatives.
MJ
Remove Government from the equation ... and this could certainly
be one option.  Will your cooperatives require other people's money
which is to be provided without their consent?


  It is the height of arrogance for you to lecture others as to their
 "moral duty".
Nessie
It's my moral duty to attempt to enlighten you, because you are a
fellow human being and you are morally remiss. It is also pragmatic
to attempt to help you to mend yourself of your error because your
error threatens the future of all of us.
MJ
How is a philosophy with roots in rape, theft and enslavement ... moral?
WHO says it is YOUR 'duty' as you describe it?  By what definition? Edict?



Nessie
If public education falls into corporate hands, this will be a much worse
place to live, worse even than it is today.
MJ
Yes, you made this claim above ... How will an education through
'cooperation' be WORSE than an education by force?



It is Fascistic to attempt to impose your concept of "moral duty"
on others by  threat of force through government intimidation.
Nessie
That depends on the circumstance. In this particular instance
 I'm not using force. I'm using logic, reason and morality. If I was
 using force, you'd know it.
MJ
What logic?



 Other then not harm my innocent  fellow citizens, or steal their
 property, my moral duty is not to impose my personal  beliefs
 on others.
Nessie
That's a selfish, self centered and short sighted philosophy.
MJ
What do you imagine the 'philosophy' you are shoveling is?


Nessie
If everyone felt like you, we'd be in a sorry state indeed.
MJ
How?
If everyone took care of THEMSELVES ... stole from no one
else ... cooperated ... how could this be possible?


Nessie
If you ever find yourself bleeding to death in a ditch, as I once did ,
that you remember as the cars stream past, that by your way of
thinking, they have no moral duty to stop and help you.
MJ
Right.
What makes YOU more important than others?

Regard$,
--MJ

The classic redistribution-of-wealth mentality works
this way: A and B get together to impose a tax on C
so they can give his money to D, who out of a mix of
envy of C, gratitude to A and B, and selfishness, then
votes for A and B again so they can repeat the process
next year. A and B justify playing Robin Hood by
claiming that C has plenty of money and, in any event,
has a social responsibility to help 'the needy'. Of
course, D is 'needy'.  -- William Stanmeyer

Karl Marx tried to devise an economic system that got
rid of selfishness.  The results are well-known.  The
Soviet block lagged well behind the West in economic
growth.  The people there lived in a police state.
But selfishness, of a type, continued to thrive there.
A Soviet citizen did not get ahead by trading with
others.  He prospered by climbing the political ladder
through corruption.  -- Charles Oliver

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Re: [CTRL] Racism And The Fight For Democracy

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

BRC
 The biggest loser in the presidential election of November, 2000
 was the principle of democracy.
MJ
Yes.  The LAW won out rather than the mob.


BRC
   The electoral contest between the two major candidates of the
   capitalist parties, George W. Bush and Al Gore, was essentially
   decided not by the people, but by the Republican-controlled
   Florida State Legislature and by five conservative justices on the
   U.S. Supreme Court. In effect, Gore was elected by the voters,
   while Bush was selected by the courts.
MJ
While the Domcrats and the Republicans are *anything* but
'capitalist' ... you claim the Florida Legislature and the US
Supreme Court decided the election ... was the Florida
Supreme Court preferable?

The United States Constitution charges the State Legislature
to choose Electors in the manner they desire ... they [State
Legislature] chose to allow the Citizens of Florida select those
Electors in the method dictated by the Laws which were passed.
George Bush had the most legal votes.  George Bush had the
most legal votes when recounted.  Al Gore chose to contest
the election in a manner which was not congruent with the Law.


BRC
 Evidence of massive voter fraud and the deliberate
 disenfranchisement of Black voters continues to mount.
 Hundreds of African-American voters were turned away at
 various polling places, when sheriff's deputies checking
voter IDs falsely asserted that the race indicated on the
card did not match the race of the person trying to vote. In
snip

MJ
'Black' voter turnout was some 60% GREATER than the 1996
election and GREATER than the demographic construct for
the State.  If indeed there were meritable 'misgivings', the method
for recourse should adequately bring them to the forefront.


BRC
 From the vantage point of Black radicalism, this
 remarkable political response by the African-American
 community in the 2000 elections did not represent an
 endorsement of the political agenda of "New Democrats" like
 Al Gore and Joe Lieberman. It was not a sign of approval for
 the devastating policies of the Clinton administration, such
 as the 1996 Welfare Act. It was the unambiguous and clearly
 recognized act of self-interest and self-preservation. It was the
 defeat of the politics we oppose the most, rather than the
 triumph of the politics which we truly want.
MJ
Access to other people's pockets?



BRC
Black people understood that the parade of black and brown
faces at the Republican convention last summer was a farce,
 the "illusion of inclusion." Most knew that Bush opposes
affirmative action, and presides over a state that has a
minimum wage of only $3.15 an hour.
MJ
So you AGREE with Racial Preferences in hiring -- so long as they
prefer YOU?
As Walter Williams has demonstrated at great length AND often,
the minimum wage is a detriment and NOT a boon.

That BOTH of these policies are not supported by the United States
Constitution apparently does not concern you.


BRC
They knew that he had picked a running mate who had voted
 against releasing Nelson Mandela from prison, and who had
opposed sanctions against apartheid. The Republican ticket
was the symbolic party of white supremacy, and that's why
millions of our people waited patiently on long lines, from St.
 Louis to Harlem, from Jacksonville to Oakland, to vote our
own interests.
MJ
If ONLY you could see the forest for the trees.

Regard$,
--MJ

There is a class of colored people who make a business of
keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the
Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are
able to make a living out of their troubles, they have
grown into the settled habit of advertising their
wrongs -- partly because they want sympathy and partly because
it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose
his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.
-- Booker T. Washington

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Re: [CTRL] [Fwd: FDA conflicts of interest (USA Today)]

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-

Bastiat
 Property is prior to law; the sole function of the law
 is to safeguard the right to property wherever it exists,
 wherever it is formed, in whatever manner the worker
 produces it, whether individually or in association,
 provided that he respects the rights of others.

Joshua
 Property is NOT prior to law. Only wishful thinking of
 greedy oinkers would like to make it so. Property will
 be revised DOWN in importance as time goes on
 because the world sees quite clearly what happens
 when property is worshipped above life.
MJ
One has PROPERTY in their LIFE ...

... But then you prefer SLAVERY ... being the epitomy of 'greedy'.

Regard$,
--MJ

The only fence against the world is a thorough knowledge
of it. -- John Locke

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Re: [CTRL] GOVERNMENT is the #1 cause of environmental destruction.

[M. A. Johnson]

snip
ignorant propaganda deleted.


Learn the difference between PRIVATE and government.

Regard$,
--MJ

It is against Stupidity in every shape and form that we have to wage our
eternal battle. But how can we wonder at the want of sense on the part of
those who have had no advantages, when we see such plentiful absence of that
commodity on the part of those who have had all the advantages? -- William Booth

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Re: [CTRL] Democracy in jeopardy

[M. A. Johnson]

Oscar wrote/forwarded:
  Democracy in the United States is in jeopardy.
MJ
About damned time.



Oscar wrote/forwarded:
   The litany of problems is widely recognized: brazen political
deal-making based on campaign contributions; entrenched
voter apathy; a two-party stranglehold that increasingly
represents only the narrow interests of a wealthy elite.
Legalized bribery is a fact of life, as is the refusal of a
majority of citizens to vote. Ours is a crippled democracy,
each day appearing more as an oligarchy than a republic.
MJ
Which is it ... a democracy or a republic?  The US Constitution
establishes a Republic with three branches of Government
each with their specific and enumerated functions.  That we
have had an oligarchy ruled by the whims of (now) five is
a result of a usurpation in 1803.

The problem is NOT the contributions, but the legislated
quid pro quo provided for VOTES.

Two illustrations:

a. If Archer Daniels Midland did NOT receive gazillions in
unconstitutional subsidies and other legislated advantage,
would they provide millions to candidates?  If they did NOT,
what would it matter if they did provide whatever amount of
funding they chose?

b. If Senior citizens did not receive payment for their votes in
the guise of unconstitutional Social Security Welfare, Medical
Welfare, etc., would they vote for the candidate promising
the greatest amount of other people's money?  Look at the
unconstitutional 'free prescription' program being offered now.


Oscar wrote/forwarded:
Certainly most US citizens enjoy freedom of conscience
and feel that they can express their political beliefs without
fear of government persecution. But under the current
campaign finance system the voices of a tiny few drown
out the voices of the majority.
MJ
You imagine further restricting freedom will provide more
freedom?



Oscar wrote/forwarded:
The right of free political expression has been rendered
meaningless by the massive amount of money flooding
the electoral system. The purchase of democracy is a
theft of freedom.
MJ
This is rather absurd.
What is it you imagine democracy to entail?



Oscar wrote/forwarded:
The state of our democracy is best represented by this
new United Corporations of America flag. Twelve
corporate logos have been reproduced on the flag
which represent a snapshot of how corporations
influence democracy today.
MJ
Corporations are a creation *OF* Government.
Your problem is with the pull-peddlers that seek Power ... having
undermined the Constitution and its protections by ensuring mass
ignorance from their mandatory indoctrination centers.


As is typical of Big Government Myrmidons, a gross ignorance
of the problem and their imagined solution -- which serves only
to make matters far worse -- is oft displayed.

Regard$,
--MJ

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts,
and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not
commit suicide. -- John Adams

The tendency of democracies is, in all things, to mediocrity.
-- James Fenimore Cooper

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Re: [CTRL] Bush wins S.C. by outspending McCain

[M. A. Johnson]

-Caveat Lector-   A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"
/A -Cui Bono?-

Prove it.

Regard$,
--MJ


There is only one class in the community that thinks more about
money than the rich, and that is the poor. The poor can think of
nothing else. -- Oscar Wilde

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frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
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[CTRL] Fatal Flaws in Social Security Plan

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Thomas DiLorenzo, adjunct scholar of the Mises Institute and professor of
economics at Loyola College, had this letter appear in today's Wall Street
Journal (March 2, 1999):

Fatal Flaws in Social Security Plan

There are two fatal flaws in the arguments by Lawrence Summers and Janet
Yellen in favor of subsidizing Social Security with general tax revenues
("Saving the Surplus Will Protect Retirees," editorial page, Feb. 18). The
first is the notion that government forecasters (or any forecasters for that
matter) are capable of predicting the federal budget 15 years in the future
("the federal government will accumulate more than $4.5 trillion in
surpluses over the next 15 years"). Who do they think they're kidding?
Claims by governmental planners to possess such clairvoyant powers was
appropriately labeled a "fatal conceit" by Nobel laureate Friedrich Hayek
and should not be taken seriously by anyone.

The second fatal flaw is the preposterous assertion that politicians granted
the power to allocate hundreds of billions of dollars in private capital
will not politicize the allocation of capital. Their "proof" of this is that
the administration, led by the most untrustworthy president in American
history, "has worked hard to build a framework that would isolate ...
equities from political pressures." But politicians cannot be "isolated from
political pressures" any more than daylight can be isolated from the sun. As
former U.S. Sen. William Proxmire (D., Wis.) stated during a 1983 Senate
debate over federal industrial policy, if government is given the authority
to allocate capital, "Money will go where the political power is ... It will
go where the union power is mobilized. It will go where the campaign
contributors want it to go. It will go where the mayors and governors as
well as congressmen and senators have the power to push it. Anyone who
thinks government funds will be allocated ... according to merit has not
lived or served in Washington very long."

Mr. Summers and Ms. Yellen did not help their own cause by opening their
article with a blatant falsehood -- that the president has "charted a course
of fiscal responsibility and economic prosperity over the past six years."
In fact, just three years ago the Clinton budget contained deficits in
excess of $200 billion and the president was proposing balancing the budget
over a 10-year period -- long after he would have left office. It was only
after his own budget was rejected by the U.S. Senate 100 to 0 that the
president switched his position, accepted a balanced-budget deal, and then
shamelessly took credit for "balancing the budget." Moreover, we are in the
midst of a 15-year recovery, not the six years that the authors claim.

Thomas J. DiLorenzo
Professor of Economics
Loyola College in Maryland
Baltimore

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Re: [CTRL] Use of Word: Liberal

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

William Shannon wrote:
 I am a self-confessed liberal, and more specifically a
 socialist. It's my experience however that most liberals
 are capitalists through and through.
MJ:
Capitalism requires the complete separation of the economy
and the state -- as such NEITHER Rs or Ds are 'capitalist's
through and through'.
Nurev:
  This is simply wrong. Capitalism COULD NOT EXIST without the
  State. It is a fatally flawed and defective system which NEEDS
  the state to prop it up to keep it going.

MJ:
Could you kindly elaborate? Specifically:
  o how it is a 'flawed' system
  o why it needs the State to exist
  o how the State 'props it up'


Nurev:
  Show me one place in the world or in history where there is an
  ongoing capitalist system not dependent on the state.

MJ:
capitalism (kàp´î-tl-îz´em) noun
 An economic system in which the means of production and
 distribution are privately or corporately owned and development
 is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits
 gained in a free market.

The Government 'intervening' negates 'privately owned means of
production and distribution.'

There has NEVER been a system of capitalism on any great scale
in all of history -- America came close during its first 150 or so
years.

You are identifying a 'mixed system'.

Regard$,
--MJ

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the
baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their
own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but
to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but
of their advantages. -- Adam Smith

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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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Re: [CTRL] DOPE SUPPORTERS 05 Equality.A

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Frosty wrote:
   #1  Do you believe in equal rights ... yes or no
MJ:
Yes. but based upon the Natural Rights Ideal of an individual's RIGHT to their
own life as the subjagation of might.


Frosty wrote:
  #2  Should every one have the same right to profit, get stupid or do
 any thing they want because their acts only have the potential to
 harm others?
MJ:
Every action could *potentially* harm others.  Only ACTUAL harm to
others should 'punished'.


Frosty wrote:
   #3  or should only a select group have the right to endanger others?
MJ:
Define and provide examples of 'endanger'.


Frosty wrote:
   Let me know before I post a list of people who are fined and imprisoned
   for endangering others and then I will ask why you are not defending them.
MJ:
Non sequitur


Regard$,
--MJ

However big the fool, there is always a bigger fool to admire him.
 -- Nicolas Boileau-Despréaux

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Re: [CTRL] [prj] DOPE SUPPORTERS

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Jeremy Brown:
  The point I am trying (in vain, it would appear) to make is that there
  are people in the world who think nothing of starting the day by
  smoking a rock of crack and then driving a school bus.

MJ:
How exactly is passing a Law which says one cannot 'smoke a rock
of crack' going to ensure 'people' are NOT going to then 'drive a
school bus'?

We have discriminatory drunk driving laws currently, but 'people' STILL
choose this behavior.

Regard$,
--MJ

Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains.
 -- Jean-Jacques Rousseau

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Re: [CTRL] **DOPE SUPPORTERS**

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Jeremy Brown:
 You say that I'm afraid of freedom, however you have produced nothing
 to support that claim.
MJ:
Criminalizing driving while drunk infringes upon one's freedom to do
such.  While it may not be SMART to participate in such an action, if
*I* were to become 'shit-faced' and drive home without incident and
keeping it between the lines ... HOW have *I* infringed upon *YOUR*
property (life and its corolaries)?

Again, why are you afraid of freedom?


Jeremy Brown:
 What I am afraid of is that more people, like my friend, will die because
 we all sit by plucking daisies and turning our heads to something we
 can work together to prevent.
MJ:
'Drunk driving' has been criminalized for many years.  Has it prevented
people from their own stupidity?  What of those people who lack the
ability to have a license (or their abilities have deteriorated) -- why do
we not FINE them or criminalize THEIR actions?  What of those exhausted
persons who exhibit LIKE characteristics of SOME intoxicated drivers?



Jeremy Brown:
 Also, you have said that a potential is not a crime. You're right,
but..(this
 may shock you)...DRUNK DRIVING IS  It's illegal!
MJ:
So are many items which should NOT.   Drunk driving like many 'crimes'
serve to raise revenue for the State.

 What is your point.

Jeremy Brown:
You can't even have an open container in the car with you. That's the
issue. And, again, I'll try and explain it to you in simple terms. I agree
that if what you do does not harm anyone but yourself, by all means
do it until you drop dead. That was not what I am saying. I'm saying
that when your actions have negative impacts on those around you
it becomes a problem.
MJ:
ALL of your actions could be construed to impact those around you.
Should we do as Frosty and all live in his Authoritarian padded world
where we might be able to breathe without instruction from another?


Jeremy Brown:
So please, everybody...stop thinking that I'm challenging freedom. I'm
not!
MJ:
But you most certainly ARE.  *You* believe drunk driving is wrong ... so
you seek the Government's legalized use of FORCE to penalize others
who seek the Freedom to decide for themselves.


Jeremy Brown:
 I'm only saying that there have been far to many good people cut
 down by drunk drivers. Something needs to be done.
MJ:
Why not simply EXECUTE those persons who 'kill' other persons?



Jeremy Brown:
 And, MJ, for you to even use the term "discrimination" in the same
 sentence as drunk driving is downright offensive.
MJ:
The FACT that Joe would be fined for 'blowing a 1.0 BAL' if stopped
in a road block where Stan would be allowed to go through (even though
he had not slept in 72 hours) is discriminatory.   This is based upon
arbitrary whim and NOT on ability or lack therof.

That you refuse to see this reality is another matter.

Regard$,
--MJ

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are
willing to give it to others. -- William Allen White October 24, 1940

We see that as soon as we surrender the principle that the state should
not interfere in any question touching on the individual's mode of life,
we end by regulating and restricting the latter down to the smallest
detail. The personal freedom of the individual is abrogated. He becomes
a slave of the community, bound to obey the dictates of the majority.
It is hardly necessary to expatiate on the ways in which such power
could be abused by malevolent persons in authority. The wielding of
powers of this kind even by men imbued with the best of intentions must
needs reduce the world to a graveyard of the spirit.
 -- Ludwig von Mises, "Liberalism: The Classical Tradition"
(The Foundation for Economic Education, Inc., 1995), p.54

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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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[CTRL] Absurdity, brazenness and hypocrisy reigns

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

~~for educational purposes~~


Absurdity, brazenness and hypocrisy reigns
by Walter Williams

A YEAR'S WORTH OF PRESIDENTIAL SCANDAL proves
at least two things about us: our weakened ability to think
and political hypocrisy.

The president's defenders and pundits constantly preach
that removing Clinton from office will 'overturn the 1996
elections'.  I'm wondering whether they want Americans
 to believe, and whether Americans actually believe, that
removing Clinton from office means that Bob Dole and
Jack Kemp, defeated in the 1996 presidential elections,
will assume the presidency and vice presidency.  It doesn't.

If the Senate were to convict Clinton, Vice President Gore,
who was elected in 1996, becomes president. So what's
this business about 'overturning the 1996 elections'?

How much ignorance abounds in the land is debatable.
What's not debatable is our heightened immunity to
paternalistic insults. Some evidence of this is Clinton's
Buffalo speech where he made a pitch for using the
budget surplus to save Social Security rather than the
tax cuts Republicans want.

Clinton told a cheering crowd, "We could give (the surplus)
back to you and hope you spend it right."  Then he advised,
"If you don't spend it right," Social Security shortfalls will
surface "just 14 years away."

Elites have always felt they've had wisdom superior to the
masses and an ordained duty to forcibly impose that
wisdom on the rest of us. What's surprising is Clinton's
audacity to articulate that sentiment. What's even more
surprising is our acceptance of his paternalistic insult. By
the way, Social Security's $10 trillion debt demonstrates
that Washington's retirement management isn't that great.

Clinton's impeachment has also amply demonstrated gross
political hypocrisy. One member of Congress after another
has argued that we should adhere to Framer intent behind
Article II, Section 4 (the Constitution's impeachment clause).

Clinton supporters in Congress and out, including law
professors, talk about the words of George Mason,
Alexander Hamilton and James Madison.

They've searched the "Federalist Papers" and other writings
to discover Framer intent about impeachment. I say great, but
let's not restrict this new found 'respect' for what the Framers
had to say about impeachment.

How much respect do you think congressmen and lawyers of
the Alan Dershowitz ilk have for these words of James Madison,
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the
Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending,
on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."?
Or, would these constitutional hypocrites be enthusiastic about
Federalist Paper 28 that says "that the state governments will
in all possible contingencies afford complete security against
invasions of the public liberty by the national authority (Washington)."

There's no stone that will go unturned to save Clinton's hide.
The president's strategists felt it necessary to argue that Clinton's
perjurious testimony and justice obstruction in the Paula Jones case
didn't violate her civil rights. Who better to present that defense than
a black woman?

That was Deputy White House Counsel Cheryl Mills' qualification
for making that case to the Senate; but she had another qualification.
Last September, the House Committee on Government Oversight
and Reform wrote to the Justice Department requesting that Mills be
prosecuted for perjury and obstruction for lying under oath and
concealing subpoenaed documents -- no word yet from the Justice
Department.

The subpoenaed documents were ultimately handed over when
other White House lawyers looked into Mills' files and discovered
them hidden there.  The bottom line is who's better to defend the
president against charges of perjury and obstruction of justice than
a person with personal experience in that area?

Clinton has exhausted all shams; now it's the Senate's turn.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

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[CTRL] Surplus, What Surplus?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

SURPLUS! WHAT SURPLUS?
THERE IS NO SURPLUS
By JOHN CRUDELE

THERE is no federal budget surplus.

I'll say it again. There is no budget surplus.

Before you even get to the issue of whether the
'budget surplus' should be given back to
taxpayers as the wishful Republicans suggest,
or used to prop up Social Security, as the
desperately-impeached President Clinton said
in his State of the Union speech on Tuesday,
there is a small issue that needs to be taken
care of - there really is no budget surplus.

Issue No. 2. There is no way people can be
allowed to invest their Social Security money
in the stock market. That's because the
'money' -- as in cash you, I or the government
would turn over to a stockbroker -- also
doesn't exist.

All right, here I go again trying to explain
how our elected officials in Washington are
perpetrating a fraud by proclaiming that there
is a budget surplus.

Over the past year, the federal deficit -- which
is money owed by our government -- rose from
$5.486 trillion to $5.618 trillion.  Those are
government numbers right out of Barron's.

That means the federal debt climbed by $132
billion. Which means the federal budget DEFICIT
last year was $132 billion.  There was no surplus
of $70 billion, or any other amount, as
Washington is claiming.

When the economy weakens -- as it always
does -- the true deficit numbers will increase.

The surplus claim is wrong. It's a fraud.

Washington is able to pretend there is a surplus
because it has been raiding the Social Security
trust fund, which, you have to understand, isn't
a pile a cash sitting somewhere in the Treasury.
It's really a pile of government IOUs (Treasury
bills, really) Washington puts into Social Security
in exchange for the cash it steals.

And it is our cash that is being stolen. Anyone
who pays into Social Security is really unwittingly
buying IOUs from a government that might not be
able to pay in decades to come.

Right now the Social Security system is running
a surplus because more money coming in than
going out. It's demographics at work -- more
employees than retirees. That pleasant situation,
however, will not last long.

But this surplus belongs to people like me and
you, who'll need it to retire someday. So
Washington shouldn't pretend that it belongs to
the country and part of the budget.

The president wants this non-existent 'budget
surplus' pumped back into Social Security.

What does that mean?

Washington will steal $200 billion from Social
Security (turning a real $132 billion deficit
into a $70 billion surplus), so that it can
proclaim a budget surplus, then it will return
the excess money to Social Security from where
it was stolen in the first place.

Oddly, that's actually a preferable charade to
what the Republicans suggest. At least under
the president's plan the 'surplus' comes full
circle and ends up back in Social Security.

Under the Republican plan, you would give away
the 'surplus' and the money will disappear from
the Social Security circle all together.

The president, however, is wrong in backing a
plan to allow people -- in some form or
another -- to invest their money in the stock
market. But the endorsement is a shrewd maneuver
by a president in trouble.

Bill Clinton knew back in 1992 what voters cared
about -- the economy and jobs.

And it is the worst kept secret in American economic
history that the only thing keeping this country's
marvelous economy going is the stock market bubble.
It's just like Japan's wonderful economy before the
bubble burst a few years back.

Americans -- like the Japanese -- feel rich because
of the stock market. And even though companies are
laying off workers faster than they were during the
hard times of the early 1990s, Wall Street is keeping
people content.

I estimate that President Clinton has no better
than a 50-50 chance of remaining in office. Those
odds go down to 60-40 against his presidency once
witnesses are called before the impeachment trial
(some day I'll be able to tell you why.)

The president can maintain his high rating if the
stock market keeps the economy rolling along. But
like any other Ponzi scheme, the Wall Street bubble
can't continue unless fresh money keeps coming
into the market.

President Clinton's Social Security proposal would
provide a lot of fresh money to keep the market
going, which'll keep the economy perking, which
will keep Clinton's rating high.

It all works quite nicely -- except that the proposal
to allow people to invest their Social Security money
in the market is impossible to enact. Here's why.

As I said, there is no cash in Social Security.

So if I am allowed to, say, put $10,000 of my
Social Security money into the stock market, where
is the cash going to come from? Washington doesn't
have the cash.

And if it does raise cash that'll be put in the
market, who is going to supply the cash to pay
retirees?

Plus, liquidating Social Security's bonds would
send interest rates skyrocketing.

[CTRL] Tyranny by any name ... was something else.

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hawk:
  You shouldn't and neither should I. Do I have health insurance or do I
get
  you to pay for my stupidity by going to the emergency room?

   Can't you see that what you are attacking is socialism?

nurev:
You don't know what the hell you're talking about do you?

Hawk:
  How, pray tell, do you get me  to pay for your emergency room, unless
  you elect some thugs to extort my money to pay it?

nurev:
That's not socialism you idiot. That's democracy. And that's what
 I'm talking about in all these posts. I'm not talking about being a
dictator like Hitler, Mao, or Joe Steel as your moronic compatriot
claimed in a related post. I'm talking about what we citizens decide
democratically.

snip babbling moronisms


MJ:
What you fail to grasp is this 50%+1 is the SAME as those who would
rule by THEIR whim (listed above as Hitler, Mao ...) .  The ideal brought
forth above is quite true whether you admit to the Statist Ideal or deem
it 'democracy' ... you desire some Thugs (known as Government) to
FORCE others to activities which they may not desire to participate
IF at least one more than half of them deem it a 'good' idea.

Democracy gave this nation separate water fountains at one time.
Democracy has given this nation an unbearable tax burden of close to 50%.
Democracy is the form of rule which 'hangs' a man because the other 9
present 'voted' for it.

These happened in America  ... because the American Government FAILED
to follow its mandate and operate like the rights protecting Republic it was
designed.

Regard$,
--MJ

Except in the sacred texts of democracy and in the incantations of
orators, we hardly take the trouble to pretend that the rule of the
majority is not at bottom a rule of force. What other virtue can
there be in fifty-one percent except the brute fact that fifty-one
is more than forty-nine? The rule of fifty-one per cent is a
convenience, it is for certain matters a satisfactory political
device, it is for others the lesser of two evils, and for others it
is acceptable because we do not know any less troublesome method of
obtaining a political decision. But it may easily become an absurd
tyranny if we regard it worshipfully, as though it were more than a
political device. We have lost all sense of its true meaning wheen
we imagine that the opinion of fifty-one per cent is in some high
fashion the true opinion of the whole hundred per cent, or indulge
in the sophistry that the rule of a majority is based upon the ultimate
equality of man.  -- Walter Lippmann

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Tobacco capitalists' global offensive.

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev forwarded:

 "The global perspective: a new opium war"
snip

 While it is the responsibility of each nation to implement
 their own tobacco control measures, governmental and
 non-governmental organisations in the USA have a very
 special responsibility:

The exemplar role - showing that 'It can be done.' The
message from the USA is that smoking rates can be
reduced and that litigation can have a major impact.

Von Mises stated in _Human Action_:
   Opium and morphine are certainly dangerous, habit-forming drugs.
   But once the principle is admitted that it is the duty of government
   to protect the individual from his own foolishness, no serious
   objections can be raised against further encroachments.  A good
   case could be made out in favor of the prohibition of alcohol and
   nicotine.  And why limit the government's benevolent providence to
   the protection of the individual's body only?

Nurev opined:
 This slippery slope theory is juvenile and stupid. The government
 might as well repeal all murder laws. Because if the gov. can tell
 you that you are not smart enough to know that you shouldn't kill
 anyone, next they'll tell you you can't have sex with children. Or
 even yell fire in a crowded theater.

MJ:
   What you apparently do not understand is that one's free CHOICE to
   utilize opium, morphine or tobacco do NOT violate another's 'right'
   to his OWN life.  I do realize freedom is a scary concept to many.

Nurev:
   Freedom is not scary to me. Libertarians are scary to me. They
   seem to be somewhat adolescent. Like you for example. The
   above statement is scarily absurd in its lack of reality perception.
YOU MUST BE A LIAR to state that crack, heroin, alcohol, and
tobacco have no affects on people other than the users. I won't
   even dignify your idiotic statement with obvious examples of its
   absurdity.

MJ:
Your blatant contradictions aside ...

I am not nor have I ever claimed to be a Libertarian ... and your logical
fallacies do little to bolster your claim.

I have no knowledge of your use or non-use of any of the above substances
NOR do I know whether or NOT you are 'addicted' to Twinkies or similar.
How exactly does your use OR non-use effect me?

What YOU freely choose to participate -- so long as it does not violate
*my* right to *my* life -- is freedom.  By instructing me that I may not
utilize tobacco products, you are violating my freedom to choose for
myself.  Same goes for the other above vices, prostitution, gambling,
etc.





Von Mises stated in _Human Action_:
Is not the harm a man can inflict on his mind and soul even more
   disastrous than any bodily evils?

Nurev opined:
   No. It's not.

MJ:
Really?  Look at how many idiots run rampant believing THEY know
better than others ... and desire the legalized use of FORCE
(Government) to enact legislation supporting their delusions.

Do tobacco users desire to limit the freedom of others?

Nurev:
  You are just ridiculous man. You are implying that all tobacco users
  are libertarian in attitude. Libertarianism has damaged your brain.

MJ:
No, the 'Libertarian' angle is your strawman.  And your fallacies continue
as does your evasion of the topic.




Von Mises stated in _Human Action_:
Why not prevent him from reading bad books and seeing
bad plays, from looking at bad paintings and statues and
from hearing bad music?  The mischief done by bad ideologies,
   surely, is much more pernicious, both for the individual and
   for the whole society, than that done by narcotic drugs.

Nurev opined:
  Maybe bad ideologies like Von Mises' and Ayn Rand's, but otherwise
  you can't compare what junkies do to reading bad books and seeing
  bad plays.

MJ:
What provides *you* with the grand insight as to which ideologies
are *better* than others?  Or that such is incomparable with 'junkies'
(whatever that might entail?

Nurev:
  The ability to think.

MJ:
At which point will you begin utilization of this 'ability'?  :)

Von Mises -- as expressed in the tobacco concern above -- favors FREEDOM,
are you stating this is a *bad* ideology?




Von Mises stated in _Human Action_:
These fears are not merely imaginary specters terrifying secluded
doctrinaires.  It is a fact that no paternal government, whether
ancient or modern, ever shrank from regimenting its subjects'
minds, beliefs, and opinions.

If one abolishes man's freedom to determine his own
   consumption, one takes all freedoms away.

Nurev opined:
  I ask anyone reading this to do so out loud a few times and tell me
  that it isn't an absurd and illogical propagandistic trick to play
  upon the feeble minded.

MJ:
What exactly do you find so troubling?  Do you 

Re: [CTRL] Tobacco capitalists' global offensive.

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev forwarded:

 "The global perspective: a new opium war"
   snip

 While it is the responsibility of each nation to implement
 their own tobacco control measures, governmental and
 non-governmental organisations in the USA have a very
 special responsibility:

The exemplar role - showing that 'It can be done.' The
message from the USA is that smoking rates can be
reduced and that litigation can have a major impact.

Von Mises stated in _Human Action_:
Opium and morphine are certainly dangerous, habit-forming drugs.
But once the principle is admitted that it is the duty of government
to protect the individual from his own foolishness, no serious
objections can be raised against further encroachments.  A good
case could be made out in favor of the prohibition of alcohol and
nicotine.  And why limit the government's benevolent providence to
the protection of the individual's body only?

Nurev opined:
  This slippery slope theory is juvenile and stupid. The government
  might as well repeal all murder laws. Because if the gov. can tell
  you that you are not smart enough to know that you shouldn't kill
  anyone, next they'll tell you you can't have sex with children. Or
  even yell fire in a crowded theater.

MJ:
What you apparently do not understand is that one's free CHOICE to
utilize opium, morphine or tobacco do NOT violate another's 'right'
to his OWN life.  I do realize freedom is a scary concept to many.



Von Mises stated in _Human Action_:
Is not the harm a man can inflict on his mind and soul even more
disastrous than any bodily evils?

Nurev opined:
   No. It's not.

MJ:
Really?  Look at how many idiots run rampant believing THEY know
better than others ... and desire the legalized use of FORCE
(Government) to enact legislation supporting their delusions.

Do tobacco users desire to limit the freedom of others?



Von Mises stated in _Human Action_:
Why not prevent him from reading bad books and seeing
bad plays, from looking at bad paintings and statues and
from hearing bad music?  The mischief done by bad ideologies,
surely, is much more pernicious, both for the individual and
for the whole society, than that done by narcotic drugs.

Nurev opined:
  Maybe bad ideologies like Von Mises' and Ayn Rand's, but otherwise
  you can't compare what junkies do to reading bad books and seeing
  bad plays.

MJ:
What provides *you* with the grand insight as to which ideologies
are *better* than others?  Or that such is incomparable with 'junkies'
(whatever that might entail?


Von Mises stated in _Human Action_:
These fears are not merely imaginary specters terrifying secluded
doctrinaires.  It is a fact that no paternal government, whether
ancient or modern, ever shrank from regimenting its subjects'
minds, beliefs, and opinions.

If one abolishes man's freedom to determine his own
consumption, one takes all freedoms away.

Nurev opined:
   I ask anyone reading this to do so out loud a few times and tell me
   that it isn't an absurd and illogical propagandistic trick to play
   upon the feeble minded.

MJ:
What exactly do you find so troubling?  Do you not believe an individual
is 'intelligent' enough to determine his own vices?


Von Mises stated in _Human Action_:
The naive advocates of government interference with consumption
delude themselves when they neglect what they disdainfully call
the philosophical aspect of the problem.  They unwittingly support
the cause of censorship, inquisition, intolerance, and the
persecution of dissenters.

Nurev opined:
   A study in Libertarianism at it's most adolescent. And at Ludwig's
   age too.   How pathetic.

MJ:
Actually it is PURE liberalism -- in it's true state.

Why the fear of freedom and liberty?



Regard$,
--MJ

...when men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow
of liberty quits the horizon. -- Thomas Paine

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Tobacco capitalists' global offensive.

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev forwarded:



 "The global perspective: a new opium war"
snip

 While it is the responsibility of each nation to implement
 their own tobacco control measures, governmental and
 non-governmental organisations in the USA have a very
 special responsibility:

 The exemplar role - showing that 'It can be done.' The
 message from the USA is that smoking rates can be
 reduced and that litigation can have a major impact.




Opium and morphine are certainly dangerous, habit-forming drugs.
But once the principle is admitted that it is the duty of government
to protect the individual from his own foolishness, no serious
objections can be raised against further encroachments.  A good
case could be made out in favor of the prohibition of alcohol and
nicotine.  And why limit the government's benevolent providence to
the protection of the individual's body only?  Is not the harm a
man can inflict on his mind and soul even more disastrous than any
bodily evils?  Why not prevent him from reading bad books and seeing
bad plays, from looking at bad paintings and statues and from hearing
bad music?  The mischief done by bad ideologies, surely, is much more
pernicious, both for the individual and for the whole society, than
that done by narcotic drugs.

These fears are not merely imaginary specters terrifying secluded
doctrinaires.  It is a fact that no paternal government, whether ancient
or modern, ever shrank from regimenting its subjects' minds, beliefs,
and opinions.  If one abolishes man's freedom to determine his own
consumption, one takes all freedoms away.  The naive advocates of
government interference with consumption delude themselves when they
neglect what they disdainfully call the philosophical aspect of the
problem.  They unwittingly support the cause of censorship, inquisition,
intolerance, and the persecution of dissenters.  --Ludwig von Mises 1949

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ wrote:
   The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony
   through the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism,
   the individual's pursuit of his own economic self-interest
   simultaneously benefits the economic self-interests of
   all others. In allowing each individual to act unhampered
   by government regulations, capitalism causes wealth to be
   created in the most efficient manner possible which
   ultimately raises the standard of living, increases the
   economic opportunities, and makes available an ever growing
   supply of products for everyone. The free-market operates
   in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth for
   himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone,
   which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become
   richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the
   economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.

snip

Linda Minor wrote:
   I agree with MJ here.  The system he is advocating does not
   exist.
MJ:
Exactly my point ... people lambaste capitalism by identifying
other systems as such.


Linda Minor wrote:
  It is a figment of Ayn Rand's imagination.
MJ:
Ad hominem, capitalism is independent of Ayn Rand.


Linda Minor wrote:
  Just look at the concepts he's discussing and see what a crock
  he's trying to push down the the throats of the people on this
  list:
MJ:
Ad populum, non sequitur, strawman ...

snip results/benefits of capitalism


Linda Minor wrote:
  I believe capitalism is a commendable concept if it did not allow
  so many advantages to the sons and daughters of those who have
  already achieved or inherited wealth.  All I would like explained
  to me is why the children of wealthy people get to start so far
  above the rest of us?

MJ:
Your 'green-ness' is shortsighted as it assumes the 'moron' who
inherits wealth can retain/build or otherwise not LOSE that which
was given him.

In response to your question, because the property was earned by
the parent who may dispose of HIS property as HE sees fit -- whether
to charity OR family OR otherwise.


Linda Minor wrote:
  The problem with capitalism is that it allows wealth to be passed
  down to the unworthy, just as socialism does.  Show me a system
  which truly allows everyone to start on an even playing field,
  earn everything they get and get everything they earn, and I'll
  be satisfied.

MJ:
Capitalism is your answer ... just as YOU should be free to do
what you will with your earnings -- however large or meager they
may be -- so others have that same 'right'.

How exactly does socialism 'pass wealth down' -- implying inheritance?

Regard$,
--MJ

Do you not know that freedom means competition, and that
competition, according to M. Louis Blanc, is a system of
extermination for the common people, and a cause of ruin
for the businessman? For evidence that the freer nations
are, the closer they are to destruction and ruination,
should we not look at Switzerland, Holland, England, and
the United States? Do you not know that, again according
to M. Louis Blanc, competition leads to monopoly, and
that, for the same reason, low costs lead to high prices?
That competition tends to exhaust the sources of
consumption and pushes production into a destructive
activity? That competition forces production to increase
and consumption to decrease? Whence it follows that free
peopls produce in order not to consume -- that liberty
means both opppression and madness, and that M. Louis
Blanc simply must step in and set matters straight?
 -- Frederic Bastiat

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[CTRL] A cliché was Re: Time to End CEOs 5-Year NAFTA Party

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
 If you've read Ravi Batra's critique of free trade, he points
 out that the "trickle-down" economic policies of the Reagan
 years inevitably must end in class division...and an eventual
 economic meltdown, sooner or later.


The 'Trickle-Down Theory' has caused our economic problems.
by K.L. Billingsley

The point of a slogan or cliché is to prevent the
listener from thinking and invert reality through
altering the meaning of terms and phrases.  The
'trickle-down economics' cliché has enjoyed tremendous
success.

The cliché started during the first administration
of Ronald Reagan and quickly became a mainstay of
the interventionist vocabulary.  The trickle-down
tag remains popular with President Clinton and his
followers, and television 'journalists' attribute
it to venal conservatives.  It was even mentioned
on a popular situation comedy show comparing it to
theories about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

Self-described socialist John Kenneth Galbraith once
explained the concept on a Firing Line television
program with William F. Buckley Jr. The administration
of the time, lamented Galbraith the wealthy economist,
was 'giving' out all sorts of favors to the wealthy and
powerful, in the fond hope that some would eventually
'trickle down' to the poor and middle class.

Galbraith further compared the concept to stuffing
a horse's trough full of straw, in the hope that some
would eventually get tossed around for the chickens,
ducks, and other little critters. But sound economics
can show that this explanation more properly belongs
to what emerges from the other end of the horse.

In the first place, the federal government produces
nothing that people would freely buy in an open
marketplace.  The state is a net consumer of wealth,
not a producer.  Returning to the barnyard anology to
find an image of the state, we notice a pig -- portly,
listless, and, of course, always squealing for more.

Every time the state tries to produce something on any
scale, the result is a disaster.  The collapsed
economies of the Eastern Bloc stand as evidence of
that fact.  As the late F.A. Hayek explained, no
government, however enlightened, possesses the knowledge
and moral detachment to 'plan' a modern society, with
its myriads of daily decisions.  Only individuals acting
in a free marketplace can do so.  But if the government's
visible hand has its way, individuals can't have theirs.
It's as simple as that.

Only someone with a statist vision could see the
government as the flywheel of wealth in America or
anywhere else.  The typical response is that the government
is handing out regulatory and tax concessions, but this too
has fatal problems.

In the United States money does not trickle down from
the government.  It flows upward from the private sector.
In a market economy, individuals and corporations earn
money by producing goods which uncoerced consumers will
purchase.  More important, in democratic societies that
respect human rights, the government has no prior claim
to what people earn by their honest labors.  There was,
however, a system which maintained such a claim.  It went
by such names as feudalism, slavery, and totalitarianism.

Hence, for the government to allow individuals to keep what
they have earned by their own labor is not a favor, subsidy,
or 'trickle-down' arrangement of any kind.  But for popular
academicians to profess otherwise only shows the
pervasiveness of the statist mindset and its capacity
for self-deception.

This is not to say that there is not a true trickle-down
theory.  Here is how it works.

The government currently ignores its legitimate task of
protecting life, liberty, and property, and performing those
tasks which it is not practical for individuals to do, such
as maintaining an army.  Instead the government sets out to
achieve 'social justice', largely by the 'redistribution' of
wealth, which it assumes is the product of exploitation.

In reality, as Frederic Bastiat explained in his masterful
treatise The Law, the modern state acts like burglars, who
are also in the business of redistributing wealth.  In like
manner, the state plunders the property of its citizens.
And with the proceeds, the state is always careful to take
care of its own benefits first.

Federal employees, for example, boast their own retirement
program, much more generous than Social Security.  And postal
employees get their choice of -- count 'em-five medical plans.
Every day brings new revelations of bulging salaries for
little effort, outrageous perks, bounced checks, and general
corruption.

This same government that plunders wealth proposes spending
'programs' that will supposedly benefit the populace, increase
prosperity, and eliminate the deficit.  Who says there is no
Santa Claus or tooth fairy?  Here, then, is the true
trickle-down theory as an honest partisan would explain it:

You the producer will, on your own initiative and with your

Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Nurev wrote:

  It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism
  by owning the government. And it's the poor and working class
  who enjoy the bitter leftovers of capitalism.

MJ wrote:
   Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...

   Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
   state -- hardly a reality within the US.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   And while we do have a slightly mixed economy, ...

MJ:
'Slightly mixed'???

Name one business one may participate (legally) which is devoid
of government.

Regard$,
--MJ

Property is prior to law; the sole function of the law
is to safeguard the right to property wherever it exists,
wherever it is formed, in whatever manner the worker
produces it, whether individually or in association,
provided that he respects the rights of others.
-- Frederic Bastiat

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Time to End CEOs 5-Year NAFTA Party

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Dispelling mythology ...


William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
 Yes, we do need trade unions.
MJ:
Why? To artificially inflate wages, costs and further unemployment?


William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
And NAFTA is a harbinger of the end of the American middle
class.
MJ:
Certainly, one should strive to restore Free Trade -- rather than
a Statist farce such as NAFTA.


William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
During the nineteen twenties, the wealth got concentrated at
the top, while the other sectors of the American economy grew
poorer..   Inevitably, Americans didn't have the disposable
income to buy the products to keep the system going..
MJ:
Look at the MONETARY policies eminating from the Government's
chief 'monkey-wrench': the Federal Reserve.  During the period
you reference above, there 'loose' policies are the cause as
mathematically and factually demonstrated by Friedman's research
on the money supply and Mises incessant pointing and subsequent
work by Robert Higgs.


William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
   The unions help keep some of the money(power) in the hands of
   working people...
MJ:
How?


William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
Also, an effective system of tariffs and the enforcement of
anti-monopoly legislation would help somewhat
MJ:
There are two types of monopoly; coercive and natural.
A natural monopoly would provide the BEST product at the BEST
price -- there has NEVER been such.
A coercive monopoly cannot exist without Government supplying
barriers to entry and other restrictions.

How exactly is 'anit-monopoly' legislation going to curtail what
the 'legislator's' created?



William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
 NAFTA is only one brick in the NWO that has helped push
 the country into decline.  (Of course, some of the people
 on this list will argue just the opposite...that we are in
 an era of unprecedented growth and prosperity thanks to
 "free trade.")
MJ:
NAFTA is NOT -- repeat NOT -- Free Trade.


Regard$,
--MJ

The primary reason for a tariff is that it enables the
exploitation of the domestic consumer by a process
indistinguishable from sheer robbery. -- Albert Jay Nock

Manufacturing and commercial monopolies owe their origin not to a
tendency imminent in a capitalist economy but to governmental
interventionist policy directed against free trade and laissez
faire. -- Ludwig Mises,

A policy of subsidizing failures will end in an economy strewn with
capital-guzzling industries long past their time of profitability
- old companies that cannot create jobs themselves, but can stand
in the way of job creation. -- George Gilder, _Wealth and Poverty_

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now?

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Someone wrote:
 May I suggest that all who are disaffected by Socialism on the
 one hand, and "vulture" (Pat Buchanan's phrase) or "loan shark"
 capitalism (which we have in the US now)

snip

MJ:
 May I recommend an education in terminology before one attempts
 to malign 'a rose by ANOTHER name'?

  America has NOT a capitalist economy but a MIXED economy
  with Government controls, regulations and planning to its
  detriment.

nurev wrote:
   Typical Libertarian bullshit. America has a slightly mixed
   economy which is firmly in the hands of Capitalists. The very
   worst of both possibilities.

   It's the Capitalist Elites who enjoy the fruits of Socialism
   by owning the government. And it's the poor and working class
   who enjoy the bitter leftovers of capitalism.

MJ:
Your blatant contradiction of yourself aside ...

Capitalism requires a SEPARATION of the economy and the
state -- hardly a reality within the US.

As Thomas Sowell stated:

A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and
there is no more effective way to limit thought
than to control the language itself.  By changing
definitions of words through continual association,
any serious discussion involving the concepts that
the words represents becomes hopelessly muddled.

The words "democracy," "hate" and "racism"
immediately comes to mind.

What better way to malign liberty and freedom than calling
apples, oranges ... blaming the oranges for that which is
otherwise not possible.

Regard$,
--MJ

The policy of the American government is to leave their
citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in
their pursuits. -- Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Secret Evidence Against Bill Too Shocking for the Public

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Linda Minor wrote:
 I love to hear people say that Clinton should be treated
 just like any other American.  But it's obvious from what
 we read in the press, that he has not been afforded any
 of the safeguards required by the Constitution.  And in
 addition, they want to fine him for trying to defend himself.

MJ:
SPECIFICALLY which of these have been circumvented?

To my knowledge Mr. Bill has YET to be 'tried' for any offenses.


Regard$,
--MJ

No man ought to be exempt from the ties of law; and the higher
any man is, the more ties he ought to be under. All power ought
to be balanced with equal restraints, else it will certainly
grow mischievous. He who knows no law but his own lust, seldom
observes any other. -- Cato's Letters

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: Secret Evidence Against Bill Too Shocking for the Public

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Linda Minor wrote:
 I love to hear people say that Clinton should be treated
 just like any other American.  But it's obvious from what
 we read in the press, that he has not been afforded any
 of the safeguards required by the Constitution.  And in
 addition, they want to fine him for trying to defend himself.

MJ:
   SPECIFICALLY which of these have been circumvented?

   To my knowledge Mr. Bill has YET to be 'tried' for any offenses.

Linda Minor wrote:
Exactly.  But any "accused" has the right to presumption
of innocence after indictment and can prevent the jury from
hearing any hearsay evidence before the trial.  If necessary
the jury can be sequestered to prevent such inadmissible
evidence from tainting their opinions.  This whole procedure
is a farce.
MJ:
An Impeachment trial is NOT the same as a trial in a court of law.
The only 'farce' would be a 'resolve' without a trial.



MJ quotes:
   No man ought to be exempt from the ties of law; and the higher
   any man is, the more ties he ought to be under. All power ought
   to be balanced with equal restraints, else it will certainly
   grow mischievous. He who knows no law but his own lust, seldom
   observes any other. -- Cato's Letters

Linda Minor wrote:
  So are you saying the president does not deserve to be treated
  like any other American citizen?  That we can convict him in
  the press on hearsay evidence.  If he defends himself, he can
  be fined the cost it takes to railroad him without a trial?

MJ:
Where exactly did I state any of this?

Who is suggesting 'railroad him without a trial'?
There has been some banter suggesting he 'reimburse' court costs
for 'misleading' the investigation -- much like the 100% acquitted
Newt Gingrich (though I fail to see the correlation).



Linda Minor asked:
 And who, pray tell, is Cato?

Cato the Elder or Cato the Censor (Marcus Porcius Cato), 234-149
B.C., Roman statesman and moralist. He fought in the Second Punic
War and later served as consul (195) and censor (184). He was
renowned for his devotion to the old Roman ideals-simplicity of
life, honesty, and courage. He told the senate to destroy Carthage
and thus helped to bring on the Third Punic War, in which Carthage
was vanquished. He also wrote many works, most of which are now
lost. Cato the Younger or Cato of Utica (Marcus Porcius Cato),
95 B.C.-46 B.C., Roman statesman, was the great-grandson of Cato
the Elder. He showed an intense devotion to the principles of the
early republic. He had one of the greatest reputations for honesty
and incorruptibility of anyone in ancient times, and his Stoicism
put him above the graft and bribery of his day. His politics were
extremely conservative. Thus he opposed Julius Caesar and supported
Pompey. After Pompey's defeat at Pharsala in 48 B.C., Cato went
to Africa to continue the struggle and took command at Utica. When
Caesar clearly had gained power, Cato committed suicide, bidding
his people make their peace with Caesar.


Regard$,
--MJ

If he ever violates the laws, one of two things will happen:
He shall come to the head of his army to carry everything
before him; or, he will give bail, or do what Mr. Chief
Justice will order him.  If he be guilty, will not the
recollection of his crimes teach him to make one bold rush
for the American throne?  Will not the immense difference
between being master of everything, and being ignominiously
tried and punished, powerfully excite him to make this bold
push?  But, Sir, where is the existing force to punish him?
Can he not at the head of his army beat down every oppposition?
Away with your President, we shall have a King: The army
will salute him Monarch; your militia will leave you and
assist in making him King, and fight against you: And what
have you to oppose this force?  What then will become of your
rights?  Will not absolute despotism ensue? ...  This, Sir,
is my great objection to the Constitution, that there is no
true responsibility - and that the preservation of our
liberty depends on the single chance of men being virtuous
enough to make laws to punish themselves.
 -- Patrick Henry
Anti-Federalist Speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,
June 5, 1788

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To 

Re: [CTRL] Title Change!

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

L. Shipton wrote:
   Study history.  We brought the Louisiana Purchase from France.

MJ:
How did 'we' bring our purchase from France?  At least it
fit well :)

Regard$,
--MJ

A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.
  -- Samuel Goldwyn

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Title Change!

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MShrum wrote:

  As for this not being a Christian nation - I refer you to
  the Supreme Court's ruling in CHURCH OF THE HOLY TRINITY
  v. U.S. ; 143 U.S. 457, 458 (1892):

  "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to
   any legislation, state or national, because this is a
   religious people...This is a CHRISTIAN nation...

MJ:
Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the
United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of
Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli.
In Article 11, it states:

 "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense
  founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character
  of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen;
  and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of
  hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties
  that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an
  interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796
(the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow,
the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held
responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once
served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary
army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read
Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy
for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government.
Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al,
translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English.
From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow
forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797.
Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John
Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document
on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797,
and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on
10 June, 1797.

x

David Barton (The Myth of Separation, pp. 47-51) and others
claim that the Supreme Court determined that the United States was
a Christian nation in the 1892 case, Church of the Holy Trinity v.
United States, 143 U.S. 226 (1892). Unfortunately, their thesis
and the analysis of the case that accompanies it amounts to little
more than a manipulation of the language of the opinion to distort
the actual meaning of the case, its relevant facts and its stated
rule of law.

The facts of Holy Trinity concerned the application of an Act
of Congress titled "An act to prohibit the importation and
migration of foreigners and aliens under contract or agreement
to perform labor in the Unites States, its Territories and the
District of Columbia." Holy Trinity Church, a church located
in the city of New York, contracted with a minister in England
to perform services as rector and pastor at its church. At
issue in the case was whether or not the church's action
violated the Act which prohibited "any person, company,
partnership, or corporation ... to assist or encourage the
importation or migration of any alien ... under contract or
agreement ... to perform labor or service of any kind in the
United States."

The holding of Holy Trinity was based on an interpretation of
the purpose of the Act. The Court concluded that the purpose
of the Act was to prohibit the importation of foreign unskilled
persons to perform manual labor and manual services. A christian
minister, the Court reasoned, is a "toiler of the brain," not
a manual laborer; Holy Trinity Church, therefore, was found
not to have violated the Act when it secured a contract for
the holy man's employment.

The rationale in Holy Trinity contains several different parts.
First the court discusses how it came up with the idea that the
purpose of the Act was to slow down or stop the importation of
cheap, unskilled manual laborers which might compete with American
unskilled laborers for jobs. The Court says the title of the Act
implies its meaning, that only the importation of "laborers" will
be restricted. The Court then turns to the legislative history,
debates, and comments of the Congressmen involved in drafting the
Act to conclude that the Act was designed to regulate the domestic
unskilled, labor market.

Justice Brewer then writes in the opinion that "beyond all
these matters no purpose of action against religion can be
imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this
is a religious people." Several pages later, after presenting
a religious history of America, he follows up with the
statement: "These, and many other matters which might be
noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass
of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation." Barton
splices together these two quotes and cites Holy Trinity as
establishing America as a Christian Nation.

To understand whether 

Re: [CTRL] The impeachment of President Clinton

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Gerald Harp wrote:
 It is a sad thing that a hate filled willful mob of
 Republicans have skirted the democratic process by
 negating the election by us of President Clinton.
MJ:
How so?  they voted articles of impeachment which certainly
do NOTHING save refer his alleged criminal activity to the
Senate.
What 'democratic' process are you referring?  America is a
Constitutional Republic where The Law rules, not a majority
of the people.


Gerald Harp wrote:
They have done this by abuse of a Constitutional provision
for impeachment meant to be invoked when a president abuses
his powers and threatens to be a self appointed dictator.
MJ:
Perhaps you should READ some of the primary source material
written about impeachment rather than rely upon that which
you are TOLD to believe.  Federalist Number 65 by Hamilton
is certainly a fine start ...

   [impeachment relates to] misconduct of public men, or,
   in other words, from the abuse or violation of some
   public trust [that is] of a nature ... political [emphases
   in original].


snip

Gerald Harp wrote:
   ... have now weakened Clinton so that, in many cases, his
   vetoes of legislation that decreases low cost housing,
   emasculates health and safety protection for blue collar
   workers, softens environmental rotections, lowers medical
   services for the poor, squanders budget surplus money on
   more tax breaks for the rich, denies legal services for
   poor people, eliminates protections against racial
   discrimination, penalizes immigrants, etc. are less likely
   to hold.

   In other words, in addition to their visceral detestation
   of an inclusive President they now have a situation more
   friendly to their most damaging legislation and that aids
   their ability to block legislation that would strengthen
   families and make a good life more possible for the middle
   class and thereby make things a bit less top down and a bit
   less of being grateful to the powers that be for whatever
   dregs of consideration the unwashed are allowed.

MJ:
Preventing the above UNCONSTITUTIONAL efforts seems noble.

 I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article
 of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress
 of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money
 of their constituents. -- James Madison

 ... attend to what generosity and humanity require, but
 to what the Constitution and their duty require.
   --  William Giles, Virginia Representative 1796


 I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for
 public charity. . . . [and to approve such spending]
 would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the
 Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon
 which the Union of these States is founded.
   -- President Franklin Pierce, 1854



Gerald Harp wrote:
I feel depressed about what has happened.  It is a big
thing because of the openness and arrogance of the thing
as though it hardly matters whether we, in truth and not
by conceit alone, live in a democracy.
MJ:
Perhaps THIS is your shortcoming.  Why exactly do you believe
America is a democracy?

 Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and
 contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal
 security, or the rights of property;  and have in general
 been as short in their lives, as they have been violent in
 their deaths.   -- James Madison


snip

Gerald Harp wrote:
 However, it may be for the best.  Now that we have been
 exposed to the realities of the ruling elite, we may all
 act a bit wiser in the future and be a little less eager
 to vote for irresponsible Republicans.  We may take a bit
 more care for our democracy and realize how easy it is to
 slip into a condition of mindlessness where objective
 reality is trivialized and pretense is elevated.

MJ:
Yes, we have faced this condition in America for over 100 years
as the 'educated electorate' ceased its 'check' sought to 'balance'
this REPUBLIC against representatives from BOTH sides of the aisle
who merely have their OWN power in mind as they apologize for
wrongdoing, redefine words and concepts, instruct myrmidons and
FAIL to uphold, defend and protect the Constitution they swear
allegiance.  It is unfortunate that it will get much WORSE, before
it ever can get better.

Regard$,
--MJ

... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a
rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed.
The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to
the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain
quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner
of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve
its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time,
that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take
arms. The remedy is to set them right 

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

William Hugh Tunstall wrote (with snippage):

The Family Leave Act was an excellent idea.
Also, the Clinton administration attempt to get a national health
insurance program going.
MJ:
How is socialism compatible with a Nation founded upon LIBERTY,
FREEDOM and an individual's RIGHT to his OWN life?  Can you cite
any Constitutional authority for this?

It is unfortunate that so many are SCARED of these ideals.


William Hugh Tunstall wrote (with snippage):
But perhaps President Clinton's greatest contribution during
the past eight years has been his willingness to insure that
some of the more draconian social measures of the Republican
party were not signed into law.
MJ:
Can you elaborate?  I thought the Duopoly were pretty consistent
with one another -- you have the 'well to the left Ds AND the just
to the 'right' of them Rs (yet still 'well to the left').

Regard$,
--MJ

Our Unconstitutional Congress
by Walter E. Williams

Stephen Moore, director of fiscal studies at the Washington-based
Cato Institute, spoke at Hillsdale College. His comments were
published in Imprimus. Reading through his remarks, one can
safely conclude that today's Washington politicians, compared
to those of yesterday, are constitutional cowards and rogues.

In 1794, James Madison, disapproving a $15,000 appropriation for
French refugees said, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on
that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress
of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their
constituents." That Congress should heed the Constitution was
forcefully restated two years later by Virginia's Congressman
William Giles when he condemned a disaster relief measure
saying it was neither the purpose nor the right of Congress
to "attend to what generosity and humanity require, but to what
the Constitution and their duty require."

This kind of constitutional respect was also found in the White
House. In 1854, President Franklin Pierce vetoed a bill to help
the mentally ill, saying, "I cannot find any authority in the
Constitution for public charity. . . . [and to approve such
spending] would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the
Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the
Union of these States is founded." President Grover Cleveland
vetoed hundreds of congressional spending bills because, as he
often wrote, "I can find no warrant for such an appropriation
in the Constitution."

The Constitution enumerates what Congress can do: establish Post
Offices, raise and support an army and navy, declare war and
conduct a few other activities related mostly to national defense.
To my knowledge, the Constitution has not been amended to
authorize Congress to spend money for farm subsidies, bailouts,
Social Security, welfare, not to mention midnight basketball
and tennis court and swimming pool construction.

Congress has found ingenious ways to subvert constitutional
limitations; one of them is the "interstate commerce clause."
In a recent case before the U.S. Supreme Court, Justice Scalia
asked the Justice Department's Solicitor General to name a
single activity or program that our modern-day Congress might
undertake that would fall outside the bounds of the Constitution.
The stunned Clinton appointee could not think of any. The Framers
would cringe at that response.

The bottom line conclusion is that we have a corrupt Congress
and White House aided and abetted by a derelict Supreme Court.
While they do their mischief, we're being led down the road to
serfdom. But what can we do about it? There are drastic measures
suggested by people like Thomas Jefferson, who said, "Rebellion
to tyrants is obedience to God." Jefferson added that, "The tree
of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood
of patriots and tyrants."

However, before we even think about drastic measures, we have
to own up to the fact that politicians are a relatively small
part of the problem. After all what would we do, as voters, to
a congressman, like William Giles of yesteryear, who respected
the Constitution and condemned fire relief payments because
they exceeded congressional authority? What would we do to a
President who took Franklin Pierce's position that there's no
constitutional authority for public charity? We'd run them out
of town on a rail. Our kind of Congressman or President is the
person who "cares" and has the deepest contempt for constitution
limitations.

None of this means that we're going down the tubes as a great
nation right away. After all when the Titanic struck that
iceberg, everything was okay . . . for a while.

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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Sno0wl wrote:
   And I say that before they hold Clinton over the spit, let
   every single on of those legislators who has had an extramarital
   affair step downand let's see who's left.

MJ:
Perhaps I missed it, but could you kindly posit those articles
of impeachment which 'condemn' the President for an 'extramarital
affair'?

Regard$,
--MJ

You vote for me and I´ll give you family values. ... I promise
you the most ethical administration in the history of our
country. -- Bill Clinton.

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Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
I respectfully disagree with your idea that the nation was
founded upon LIBERTY.first disagreement: Liberty for
whom?  White males? Blacks? Women? Native Americans?

MJ:
That of course was left up to the STATES to decide, though they
were instructed regarding the MODEL for government in Article 4,
section 4.

Regard$,
--MJ

In the end more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security.
When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for
society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for was
freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free.
-- Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)

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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Mr. Tunstall,

With all due respect ... I think you have me confused with
a Republican -- who in general are merely a little to the
'right' of the Democrats who are 'well to the left'.  *I*
am just to the left of Anarchy realizing that government
is needed to avoid endless gang warfare -- prefering a
simple standard found within the Document that dissolved
the government bonds within this country and formed the
philosophy by which our Constitution was drafted.

If you would like to posit a response to my post rather than
putting me in a box which is more easily dismissed -- at least
by association, I am all ears.

Regard$,
Michael


What's *just* has been debated for centuries but let me offer
you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you
keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much
of what I earn *belongs* to you -- and why?   --Walter Williams


William Hugh Tunstall wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 MJ-

 I guess you're not up on your Clinton trivia.  The Republican Party's
 campaign to subvert two national elections began eight years ago...
 Starting with Larry Nichols/Rush Limbaugh...and other honchos in the
 Republican party who used talk radio to do character assassinations of
 President Clinton...  Usually, these dirty tricks campaign involved
 drumming up one phony allegation after another and serving it up for the
 ditto heads. Clinton had Vince Foster murdered; Clinton operated a
 satanic kiddie porno ring at the Governor's School in Little Rock; Clinton
 ran drugs out of Mena, Arkansas;... one allegation after another...

 Your brethren on the far right decided that they could bring him down by
 destroying his character.  and of course, it didn't work very well,
 MJ.  He was reelectedand to the horror of your compatriots, the public
 really weren't interested in what the far right was serving up.  That is
 why Newt was asked to step down..

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Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ:
  o The Legislation is UNCONSTITUTIONAL
  o This is one of the government's direct causes for the
  increase in temporary agencies
  o This 'act' has caused MORE abuses
  o It is not government's place to circumvent a contract 

Prudy:
The temp agencies have been around a lot longer than the family leave act,
MJ:
Note the above states 'increase' not 'creation'.


Prudy:
   and unless the Supreme Court (you know, your friend Rehnquist) has
   declared it unconstitutional, I guess it may not be.
MJ:
Can you cite the relevant Constitutional article, section and clause or
amendment?

You do realize you are not only providing the Supreme Court with powers they
do not possess, but you are implying we have 'Robed Masters'.


Prudy:
 The Government's place is to insure that workers are treated fairly, and
 are paid the minimum wage.
MJ:
Who defines 'treated fairly'?

Should the Government not ALSO look out for 'employers' ... afterall they
are individual citizens as well.  Would a better standard not be for Government
to protect ALL (regardless of 'group' one desires to place them) from FORCE
and FRAUD?


You agree to perform Task A in exchange for Wage X for me.

   o So long as our agreement is 'honored' by both of us, why would
  Government need to involve themselves?
   o Where does a 'minimum wage' come into play? -- afterall we
   both agreed to the terms of our exchange

Can you cite Constitutional article, section and clause for either a 'minimum
wage' or 'fair worker treatment' (whatever that one might mean)?


Regard$,
--MJ

Congress cannot, under pretext of executing delegated power, pass
laws for the accomplishment of objects not entrusted to the Federal
Government. -- Linder v. US, 268 US 5, 17 (1925).

No doctrine can be sound that releases a legislature from the
control of a constitution. ...although always liable to be
altered by the people who formed it, [it] is not alterable
by any other authority; certainly not by those chosen by the
people to carry it into effect. This is so vital a principle,
and has been so justly the pride of our popular government,
that a denial of it cannot possibly last long or spread far.
-- James Madison (1825)

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Re: [CTRL] As Impeachment Looms, Clinton Seems In Denial (Reuters)

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There are 55 Republicans in the Senate, it will take 66
votes to convict.  Conviction will not happen. Will there
be a 'paralyzing' trial'? I believe that a natural defense
for any later criminal trial would be 'double jeopardy'. I
believe Clinton has stated that he would not except a pardon
for his 'alleged' crimes.

 His ace? He knows whom he got his 'job' from?
 Tranquilzers, etc . . .?
MJ:
Article I, Section 3, Clause 6:

... no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of
two thirds of the Members present.
^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^

67 in the case of 100.

The Senate is NOT the House ... Clinton finds many Ds in opposition
to what he has done to THEIR party and its tradition.  It would NOT
be advisable to 'jump' so quickly.

Regard$,
--MJ

I am certain that nothing has done so much to
destroy the juridicial safeguards of individual
freedom as the striving after this mirage of social
justice.
-- Fredrich von Hayek,
   Economic Freedom and Representative Government; 1973

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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
 Bull!  He was sworn to give truthful testimony in a
 sexual harassment case...sexual harassment IS a crime...

E Mael wrote:
it could certainly be said that monica sexually harassed
him into their sex acts. it might do well for you to think
about your posts before jetting them off for all to see,
without any thought as to what you are actually saying.

MJ:
sexual harassment noun
Unwanted and offensive sexual advances or sexually
derogatory or discriminatory remarks, as those made
by an employer to an employee.

The case was Ms. Jones' ... and has NOTHING to do with your
red herring.

Perhaps *you* should take your own advice.


Regard$,
--MJ

... where corruption and public crimes are not carefully opposed,
and severely punished, neither liberty nor security can possibly
subsist. -- Cato's Letters (1721)

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Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Alamaine Ratliff wrote:
Ironically, whether the Congress or the people who (supposedly)
put them there like it or not, the whole debate has raised the
level of understanding about their government.

MJ:
Are you certain it is NOT a 'race' to see who can 'instruct'
the public on what they are to believe?  We are a body politic
of myrmidons for the most part.

Regard$,
--MJ

It doesn't matter what is true, it only matters what people
believe is true.
 -- Paul Watson, founder of Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd

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Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Oh, okay.  I think the family leave act was a pretty
good idea.

MJ:
For whom?

   o The Legislation is UNCONSTITUTIONAL
   o This is one of the government's direct causes for the
 increase in temporary agencies
   o This 'act' has caused MORE abuses
   o It is not government's place to circumvent a contract

Regard$,
--MJ

The classic redistribution-of-wealth mentality works
this way: A and B get together to impose a tax on C
so they can give his money to D, who out of a mix of
envy of C, gratitude to A and B, and selfishness, then
votes for A and B again so they can repeat the process
next year. A and B justify playing Robin Hood by
claiming that C has plenty of money and, in any event,
has a social responsibility to help 'the needy'. Of
course, D is 'needy'.  -- William Stanmeyer

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==
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Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ quoted:

   The classic redistribution-of-wealth mentality works
   this way: A and B get together to impose a tax on C
   so they can give his money to D, who out of a mix of
   envy of C, gratitude to A and B, and selfishness, then
   votes for A and B again so they can repeat the process
   next year. A and B justify playing Robin Hood by
   claiming that C has plenty of money and, in any event,
   has a social responsibility to help 'the needy'. Of
   course, D is 'needy'.  -- William Stanmeyer

E Mael wrote:
   or in other words: i got mine and F**k the rest of
   yas.

MJ:
No actually it goes more towards Politicians 'buying' votes
and/or individuals utilizing the Government as the instrument
of plunder.  But then you were only commenting in an effort
to remove all doubt.

Regard$,
--MJ

The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody
has decided not to see ...   -- Dominique Francon

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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ:
Reading through this tripe, the consideration of a 'mirror' view
regarding the Democratic desire to SAVE an accused perjurer who has
abused his power and his office 'turned' on every word.


Sno0wl wrote:
  This "accused perjurer" was accused of saying that he was never
  alone with a woman when, in fact, he was alone with her. Being
  alone with the woman was not, in itself, a crime.
MJ:
Correct, but LYING about this under oath in an effort to thwart
culpability in a civil suit most certainly is ... as well as
being in conflict with a President's oath of office.


Sno0wl wrote:
  This "accused perjurer" is accused of saying that he never had
  "sexual relations" with a certain woman, when in fact he did have
  sexual relations of a sort. Having sexual relations with the woman
  was not a crime.
MJ:
Did you investigate the many laws regarding sodomy within the nation's
capitol? LYING about this under oath in an effort to
thwart culpability in a civil suit most certainly is ... as
well as being in conflict with a President's oath of office.



Sno0wl wrote:
  He is accused of perjury in relation to matters which do not,
  in any way, relate to criminal acts.
MJ:
The perjury itself is a criminal act.

No mention of the abuses of office and power utilized to the goal
of thwarting culpability in that civil manner?  Afterall, Mr. Nixon
was pursued for 'covering up' a crime he did not commit as compared
to Clinton's desire to do the same for his OWN crimes.



Sno0wl wrote:
   Many of the most educated people in our nation, including
   distinguished legal scholars and prosecutors who participated
   in the Iran-Contra hearings, cannot believe that Clinton is
   being impeached over these issues. Ken Starr's own ethical
   advisor has quit over these issues. However, all we hear on
   the news is what the  ruthless, relentless, vengeful  Republican
   members of the Judiciary Committee think, do, and say.
MJ:
Certainly one is learned enough to 'wade' through the BS and locate
primary sourcing ... establishing an opinion for ones self of the
FACTS.

Hamilton, Federalist Number 65:

   A well-constituted court for the trial of impeachments is an
   object not more to be desired than difficult to be obtained in a
   government wholly elective. The subjects of its jurisdiction are
   those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or,
   in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust.
   They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be
   denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done
   immediately to the society itself. The prosecution of them, for
   this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole
   community, and to divide it into parties more or less friendly or
   inimical to the accused. In many cases it will connect itself with
   the pre-existing factions, and will enlist all their animosities,
   partialities, influence, and interest on one side or on the other;
   and in such cases there will always be the greatest danger that the
   decision will be regulated more by the comparative strength of
   parties, than by the real demonstrations of innocence or guilt.


I simply point to our current efforts in Iraq ... the questioning
of Mr. Clinton's motives in itself demonstrates the 'violation of
some public trust.'  The same accusations occurred when Mr. Clinton
destroyed a pharmaceutical plant in August.


Regard$,
--MJ

Men in public trust will much oftener act in such a manner as
to render them unworthy of being any longer trusted, than in
such a manner as to make them obnoxious [subject] to legal
punishment. -- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No 70

It doesn't matter what is true, it only matters what people
believe is true. -- Paul Watson, founder of Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd

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==
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Re: [CTRL] [BCPolitics] Re: Comparisons with Switzerland, Re: Politics et al!

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ:
   Unfortunately 'what you think' and reality are two distinctly
separate issues.  Switzerland is a Federal Republic.

Franklin Wayne Poley wrote:
   Nay, Johnson. Switzerland is in REALITY a direct democracy
   in which the eligible voting Citizens can vote on any issue
   at any time and it will be binding on the Legislature. PROVE
   me wrong instead of bs'ing.

MJ:
IF I YELL WILL YOU ACTUALLY LISTEN?  I have offered *proof* by
pointing at a reality several times now.

Federal Republic of Switzerland --
Judicial branch:
 Federal Supreme Court, judges elected for six-year terms
 by the Federal Assembly
Executive Branch:
 President and vice president elected by the Federal Assembly
 from among the members of the Federal Council for one-year
 terms that run concurrently;

Legal system:
 Civil law system influenced by customary law; judicial review
 of legislative acts, except with respect to federal decrees
 of general obligatory character; accepts compulsory ICJ
 jurisdiction, with reservations


Regard$,
--MJ

Tyranny and despotism can be exercised by many, more rigourously,
more vigourously, and more severely, than by one. -- Andrew Johnson

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==
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Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Gerald Harp forwarded:
 A KINDER, GENTLER LYNCH MOB
 SALON | Dec. 15, 1998

snip Instructions for myrmidons


MJ:
Reading through this tripe, the consideration of a 'mirror' view regarding
the Democratic desire to SAVE an accused perjurer who has abused his
power and his office 'turned' on every word.

It is truly a pity that the American system is missing its most crucial link;
an educated electorate.  An EE would have prevented our system from
degenerating to what we are currently faced today -- both within the
problems of this nation (real and perceived) AND within the leadership
ranks (both wings of the statist party -- Ds and Rs).

I ponder the inevitable fertilization of the tree of Liberty, but am resigned
to the general fear of freedom expressed by most.


Regard$,
--MJ

The important thing is to stop lying to yourself.  A man who lies to himself,
and believes his own lies, becomes unable to recognize the truth, either
in himself or in anyone else, and he ends up losing respect for himself as
well as for others.  When he has no respect for anyone, he can no longer
love and, in order to divert himself, having no love in him, he yields to his
impulses, indulges in the lowest forms of pleasure, and behaves in the
end like an animal, in satisfying his vices. And it all comes from lying --
lying
to others and to yourself.
 -- Feodor Mikhailovich Dostoyevsky 1880 _The Brothers Karamazov_

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Re: [CTRL] Those who conspire against democracy.

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Franklin Wayne Poley quoting out of context and cross posting
 others remarks in OTHER forums wrote:

 Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes,
 exhausts, and murders itself.

Franklin Wayne Poley then dishonestly claimed:

Tell that to the Swiss. Gosh if they had only had your
wisdom 130 years ago they could have prevented over a
century of peace and prosperity under what I think can
fairly be called a "direct democracy".

MJ:
The quotation was:

 Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes,
 exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a
 democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
   -- John Adams (1735-1826),  Letter, 15 April 1814.

Unfortunately 'what you think' and reality are two distinctly
separate issues.  Switzerland is a Federal Republic.

Regard$,
--MJ

The majority is never right. Never, I tell you! That's one
of these lies in society that no free and intelligent man
can help rebelling against. Who are the people that make
up the biggest proportion of the population -- the intelligent
ones or the fools? I think we can agree it's the fools, no
matter where you go in this world, it's the fools that form
the overwhelming majority. -- Henrik Ibsen

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Fw: (whiteoak) Human Rights Declaration

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Shane A. Saylor, Eccentric Bard wrote:
To celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights, Amnesty International is collecting signatures
for ...


MJ:
Can someone 'enlighten' me regarding the BLATANT contradictions
which are found within the Universal Declaration of Rights?
I merely point to a FEW to utilize the k.i.s.s. method.  :)


  Article 1:
  All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
  They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act
  toward one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
MJ:
Article 3 is in conflict ... if *I* have a RIGHT to my own
life, such includes the FREEDOM to act towards others in
whatever manner *I* choose (criminal behavior of course is
punished as such).

Who decides what equality of 'dignity' is?


   Article 3:
   Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
MJ:
Natural Rights ideal ... certainly the BEST I have seen.

   Article 19:
   Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression.
MJ:
This is in violation of article 1 above.


   Article 23:
   Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment,
   to just and favorable conditions of work and to protection
   against unemployment.
MJ:
This REQUIRES another to give up article 3.


   Article 25:
   Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for
   the health and well-being of himself and his family.
MJ:
This REQUIRES another to give up article 3.


   Article 26:
   Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free,
   at least in the elementary and fundamental stages.
MJ:
This REQUIRES another to give up article 3.




Regard$,
--MJ

The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before
the law.  -- Aristotle

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Outline of new Republican National Health Plan.

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev wrote:

snip wondrous tale

MJ:
Ain't Government wonderful.  :)

Regard$,
--MJ

But if the government undertakes to raise and to regulate wages, and
cannot do so; if it undertakes to assist all the unfortunate, and
cannot do so; if it undertakes to provide workers with the tools of
production, and cannot do so; if it undertakes to make interest-free
credit available to all those clamoring for loans, and cannot do so;
if, in words that we regret to note were written by M. de Lamartine,
"the state assumes the task of enlightening, developing, increasing,
spiritualizing, and sanctifying the soul of the people," and if it
fails,; is it not evident that after each disappointment (alas, only
too probable!), there will be no less inevitable revolution?
 -- Frederic Bastiat

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Outline of new Republican National Health Plan.

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

nurev wrote:
PRAY - YOU - DON'T - GET - SICK.


MJ:

While I certainly do NOT believe the Rs will give up their
statist ideas ... WHY exactly should the Federal Government
(quite contrary to its mandate) FORCE some individuals to
pay for 'health care' (whatever that might mean) for others?


Regard$,
--MJ

What's *just* has been debated for centuries but let me offer
you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you
keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much
of what I earn *belongs* to you -- and why?   --Walter Williams

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Please enlighten me as to what is "pure capitalism" .

MJ:
That was *YOUR* phrase.
As to Capitalism, that was defined at the beginning of this thread
which was in response to another incorrectly labelling 'apples'
as 'oranges' and BLAMING capitalism when such did not exist.

Regard$,
--MJ

Everyone is in business for himself, for he is selling
his services, labor or ideas. Until one realizes that
this is true he will not take conscious charge of his
life and will always be looking outside himself for
guidance.  -- Sidney Madwed

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ wrote:
  A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and there
  is no more effective way to limit thought than to
  control the language itself.  By changing definitions
  of words through continual association, any serious
  discussion involving the concepts that the words
  represents becomes hopelessly muddled.

  The words 'democracy', 'hate' and 'racism' immediately
  comes to mind. -- Thomas Sowell 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   This, I believe to be true, but I also think that Facism, hate
   and racism also go together.
MJ:
Hmmm ...

fascism (fàsh´îz´em) noun
  A system of government marked by centralization of authority
  under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression
  of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically
  a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

racism (râ´sîz´em) noun
   The belief that race accounts for differences in human character
   or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

hate (hât) verb
   To feel hostility or animosity toward, To detest.



MJ:
   Laissez faire capitalism means the complete separation of economy
   and state, just like the separation of church and state. Capitalism
   is the social system based upon private ownership of the means
   of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated
   economy where all land is privately owned. But the separation of
   the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of
   the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights.
   Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the
   doctrine of individual rights.  This means that capitalism
   recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own
   life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses
   as long as he does not violate the rights of others.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Our country would be better off if we had a capatalist system such
   as this, but as you stated before... words change through constant
   association.  Capitalism now is the subjugation of the poor by the
   rich in reality, mostly through the granting of charters to
   corporations.  Corporations are not formed for the public good as
   they were supposed to be, but are formed to make the rich even
   richer through manipulating government laws.
MJ:
My POINT was that what *you* identify (but more pertinent -- what the
'indictor' of Capitalism was positing) is NOT capitalism, but something
else.

America -- though not explicitly stated -- is idealically to be
as identified above, but the Government has usurped additional
powers not so granted AND utilized its ability for the 'legalized'
use of FORCE to wield havoc.



MJ:
 The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through
 the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the
 individual's pursuit of his own economic self-interest
 simultaneously benefits the economic self-interests of all
 others. In allowing each individual to act unhampered by
 government regulations, capitalism causes wealth to be
 created in the most efficient manner possible which ultimately
 raises the standard of living, increases the economic
 opportunities, and makes available an ever growing supply
 of products for everyone.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   From what I have seen in my lifetime, capitalism mostly raises
   the standard of living for those who already have a high standard
   of living, and there is very little "trickle down" to the common
   person who does the labor in the rich man's factory.  An "ever
   growing" supply of products does no good for someone who cannot
   afford to buy them.  If the business owners did share the wealth
   with the workers, that would be equitable, but I think, unrealistic
   by what I've seen so far.
MJ:
America has NOT a capitalist economy, but a mixed economy.

As to your concerns ... look at the 'imaginary' poverty figures
and notice how many 'poor' persons have automobiles, air conditiong,
televisions, etc.  :)


MJ:
 The free-market operates in such a way so that as one man
 creates more wealth for himself, he simultaneously creates
 more wealth for everyone, which means that as the rich become
 richer, the poor become richer too. It must be understood that
 capitalism serves the economic self-interests of all, including
 the non-capitalists.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Could you explain in more detail how a man who creates more
   wealth for himself will simultaneously create more wealth for
   everyone? (Not trying to be sarcastic, just interested in your
   theory)
MJ:
Look at Bill Gates.  How many persons did/does *he* employ in his
'quest'?  How many have become 'millionaires'?  How many people
now have home computers? ... for instance.

Look at Rockefeller who CONTRARY to myth, made great strides in
oil refining, lowered oil prices, created a 'boom' in 

Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We tried "pure capitalism" once it was called the 1900s and
the industrial revolution. Every one seems to forget about
how nice it was. Try reading about how great it worked how
every time a robber baron made more money his workers got
nothing.Not to mention the depressions that are inherent
to "pure capitalism".

MJ:
America was never 'purely capitalist'.

The 'ignorance' (no disrespect intended) of your statement above
sheds light on how well a government in need of power has succeeded
in spreading their mythology -- Big Bad Freedom needing a Politician
to ensure his whimsical policies provide the illusion of benefit.

For so-called 'Robber Barons' ... begin with Folsom's _MYTH of the
Robber Baron_.

For so-called 'inherent depressions' ...

A depression is a large-scale decline in production and trade; it
is characterized by a sharp drop in productive output, in investment,
in employment and in the value of capital assets (plants, machinery,
etc.) Normal business fluctuations, or a temporary decline in the
rate of industrial expansion, do not constitute a depression.  A
depression is a nation-wide contraction of business activity -- and
a general decline in the value of capital assets -- of major
proportions.

There is NOTHING in the nature of a free-market economy to cause
such an event.  The popular explanations of depression as caused
by  'over-production', 'under-consumption', monopolies, labor-saving
devices, maldistribution, excessive accumulations of wealth, etc.,
have been exploded as fallacies many times.  (refer to _Capitalism
the Creator_ by Carl Snyder, The Macmillan Company 1940)


Regard$,
--MJ

The policy of the American government is to leave their
citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in
their pursuits. -- Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

[CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and there
   is no more effective way to limit thought than to
   control the language itself.  By changing definitions
   of words through continual association, any serious
   discussion involving the concepts that the words
   represents becomes hopelessly muddled.

   The words 'democracy', 'hate' and 'racism' immediately
   comes to mind. -- Thomas Sowell


Laissez faire capitalism means the complete separation of economy
and state, just like the separation of church and state. Capitalism
is the social system based upon private ownership of the means
of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated
economy where all land is privately owned. But the separation of
the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of
the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights.
Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the
doctrine of individual rights.  This means that capitalism
recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own
life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses
as long as he does not violate the rights of others.

The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through the
pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the individual's
pursuit of his own economic self-interest simultaneously benefits
the economic self-interests of all others. In allowing each individual
to act unhampered by government regulations, capitalism causes wealth
to be created in the most efficient manner possible which ultimately
raises the standard of living, increases the economic opportunities,
and makes available an ever growing supply of products for everyone.
The free-market operates in such a way so that as one man creates
more wealth for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for
everyone, which means that as the rich become richer, the poor
become richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves
the economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.

Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system which
exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a small minority
of wealthy capitalists. Ironically, it is actually socialism that
causes the systematic exploitation of labor. Since the socialist
state holds a universal monopoly on labor and production, no
economic incentive exists for the socialist state to provide anything
more than minimum physical subsistence for the workers except to
perhaps prevent riots or revolutions. Exploitation is inherent to
the nature of socialism because individuals cannot exist for their
own sake, rather, they exist merely as means to whatever ends the
socialist rulers -- the self-proclaimed spokesman of "society," may
have in mind.


Regard$,
--MJ

Capitalism undoubtedly has certain boils and blotches
upon it, but has it as many as government? Has it as
many as marriage? Has it as many as religion? I doubt
it. It is the only basic institution of modern man
that shows any genuine health and vigor.
-- H. L. Menken

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of
belief in freedom itself.  -- Milton Friedman

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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