CS: Target-Shooting venues in New Jersey?
From: "Daryll Brownjohn", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Following on from this thread I'm hoping to visit New Jersey in the next few months.. on business unfortunately.. but in case I get the chance for some R& R, can anyone suggest a Pistol range, with hire facilities, in the Princeton / Trenton area?? Regards, Keep shooting, Daryll Brownjohn -- There aren't any listed in the directory E J suggested. There are a few gun stores though: http://superpages.gte.com/ I seem to recall reading an article saying that renting handguns was illegal in New Jersey or something like that. They do have pretty tough gun laws. Actually thinking further I think it was because no insurance company would give them insurance. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: "Chris Lloyd", [EMAIL PROTECTED] As over 75% of people in the UK cannot stand the silly game of Foot Ball I say lets ban it so they can do something more useful an Saturdays. Chris. Chris Lloyd ICQ no.44575318 Wessex Ferret Club www.wfc.cwc.net Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Police foil terror plot
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Police foil terror plot to use sarin gas in London By Chris Hastings and David Bamber A SPECIAL Branch raid on a house in London has exposed a terrorist plot to release the poisonous nerve gas sarin in Britain.Senior police officers have confirmed to The Telegraph that detailed plans containing instructions on how to manufacture and deploy the poison, which kills in seconds, were discovered by detectives. They believed that a group was plotting to release the gas on the London underground in a copy of an attack in Japan that killed 12 people in 1995. The find coincides with growing tensions in the Middle East following the unrest in Israel. It confirms the worst fears of police, who are convinced that London, for so long a hiding place for international terrorists, is now at the top of their list for targets.Detectives are linking the plot with a major arms find in Germany in December last year when police in Frankfurt arrested four foreign nationals known to have had links to Saudi terrorist Osama Bin Laden. Weapons including grenades and guns were found in their homes.A senior police source said: "We have feared for some time that there would be a major terrorist incident in London. It is amazing it hasn't happened before. It is no secret that people in London have links with terrorists abroad. What is causing concern now is that those people are regarding the capital as a target and not just a hiding place. There was an alert just before Christmas because there was evidence of an attack. Nothing happened but that doesn't mean we are safe."Scientists said last night that the chemical was easy to manufacture and a tiny amount released in an underground station could kill thousands of people. Terrorist groups are increasingly keen to experiment with chemical weapons. Sarin, which is 26 times more deadlier than cyanide, is particularly sought after because being odourless it is almost impossible to detect. It was developed as a chemical weapon by the Nazis during the Second World War and its potential for terrorist use was realised in 1995 when the Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo used it during an attack on an underground train. Twelve people were killed and more than 5,000 injured. In 1999, as a direct result of the Tokyo attack, police in London established a unit to advise key installations on how best to safeguard themselves from a chemical attack. Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=004374648225356&rtmo=lvQouzSt&; atmo=rrrq&pg=/et/01/2/18/nsar18.html Kenneth Pantling -- Now you see _this_ is what Section 5(1)(b) of the Firearms Act 1968 was intended for. ;) Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Gallery Rifle
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > It's the same as the MoD standard for indoor pistol ranges, max. > calibre .455", not sure what the exact energy limit is off the > top of my head. > > Steve. 475 ft/lbs seems familiar. Jonathan Laws Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Occasionally one has some very limited sympathy for the criminals. I sat > listening a few years ago to a plea of guilty at Southwark CC for unlawful > possession; discharge with intent to endanger life; att. murder(acquitted of > the latter) well-known drug dealer in the proverbial BMW was cut up by a > white Transit in Balham High Road; he let off a magazine from a Browning > Hi-Power at the Transit, mercifully wounding no-one. There but for the grace > of God... I mast be a bit slow because I fail to see any reason for sympathy here. Jonathan Laws Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-"the fashion for firearms"
From: "James McNair", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Theres a crude breakdown on my webpage at http://www.gun.demon.co.uk/figures.htm As for the stats : 59 were murders 8 were suicides 7 were accidents 2 were police shootings and 1 was a domestic incident. In terms of geography : London accounted for 19 murders , Manchester/Salford 7 , Leeds 5 , and Birmingham 4. Its difficult to find out what the weapons used were as it seems the press aren't to bothered about it and the police rarely mention it. Handguns were confirmed as responsible for 7 deaths (but I suspect very many more if we had all the details) Shotguns , 8 and rifles/shotguns another 3. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Positive reply from Bracknell MP
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike: You might also comment that if that 'government' of yours cannot trust you with firearms, how can they trust you with any kind of expression (as in speech, or press), as that is always the 'gateway' through which all other methods of 'expression' are availed. Just a 'thought'. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Q. The essence of the question is: if a wild predatory animal inflicts a certain level of misery upon its prey -- in the process of subduing it, what would you deem to be onerous when a human is conducting the same act? A. Because the chasing of a fox by hounds is not the act of a "wild predatory" animal but the use of domestic animals selectively bred by human beings (since the days of Hugo Meynell) for pleasure in seeing hounds "work" u under the skilled control of their Huntsman. There is nothing "natural" in the United Kingdom of a group of dogs chasing another for three, four, five or even ten to twenty miles until it is exhausted and then killing it. Q.The question arises, when we consider that modern natural predators are finely adapted hunters, that have all of the traits necessary to seek, track, stalk, and capture its selected prey -- the better part of the time. Now, it these predatory animals are more adapted to their tasks than humans (we are relegated to making tools for the same purpose which aren't nearly as good as we'd care to confess), how can we lessors to the art of hunting be constrained to a degree of humaneness, when it is totally beyond the pale to even consider such thinking when observing the natural predator? Merely that we are human? A. Because the "rules" of fox hunting by mounted packs are concerned with prolonging the hunt and thus seeing hounds "work" and not with controlling foxes. Otherwise why when a fox is dug out after "going to earth" is it given a "field and a fence" and hounds not immediately allowed to fall upon it and kill it? Q.We humans who have partaken in the hunt, with primitive tools that have no keen edges, no projectiles as arrows, bullets and the like, and have pursued the prey in the most barbaric way, know of the savagery that the human psyche is capable of. A.Primitive humans that do today, or have in pre-history, killed animals in a "barbaric way" do so to survive by eating that animal. It needs not "justification" as it is "necessity". If one has neither gun, nor bow and arrow that is powerful enough, nor the use of a horse to pursue and spear the quarry then the last resort is to drive a bison over a cliff so that it may be killed in that way. Q.If it is our natural modus operandi to behave as we do on a hunt, then I would ask: At what point do we constrain ourselves A.When it becomes not a "necessity" to either kill vermin or an edible quarry species but a "pleasure" falsely justified by calling it a "necessity". Q.And, by what measure, by what prescribed limit are we to presume that the animals we have bred for a purpose are no longer suitable, when it is within their natural capabilities -- and proclivities -- otherwise? A.Foxhounds are not doing what is a "natural proclivity". The "sport" of fox hunting as we know it today is not much more than two hundred years old. It can be said that its "father" was Hugo Meynell in the Nineteenth Century! The very purpose of "cubbing" is to allow the Huntsman to select out, recognise and kill those hounds who in fact do follow their "natural proclivity" in that they have no innate desire to chase or kill foxes. Only those hounds that act, in reality, contrary to their natural instincts by seeking to chase and kill the fox are those that are of use to the Huntsman. Q.And, lastly, if one human perceives of certain misery inflicted upon another creature, perhaps undeservedly so by the measure we apply when humans are the comparison, do we err when we apply that measure to the hunt, and apply it psychologically as though the animal were domesticated? A.Pain is pain. A wild mammal feels it not less than a domestic animal. I welcome the chance to have this reasoned "argument". I hope that you find my responses thought provoking. -- My response to all arguments against hunting no matter how reasoned is that most people don't reason, in fact most people don't care, except the hunters. So if the hunting of that species is forbidden the species that is hunted is infinitely worse off, because it will be neglected and at the mercy of someone building a shopping centre in the middle of its habitat, or a farmer deciding to use that land for something else. Hunters will conserve the species they hunt, whereas it will be in the hands of an underfunded government agency staffed by civil servants who largely don't care otherwise. Whether or not the hunt is "cruel" is purely academic. Compared to what will happen to that species otherwise it is small potatoes. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: Neil Francis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > The essence of the question is: if a wild predatory animal inflicts >a certain level of misery upon its prey -- in the process of subduing it, what >would you deem to be onerous when a human is conducting the same act? Oh please - there is a massive difference. You cannot equate a natural kill by an animal with what is basically a human sport with rules, conventions and a yearly fixture. You know I firmly believe that a major reason that people oppose fox hunting, in this country anyway, is because the supporters try to justify their cause with comments like this. In short you are treating the people who oppose you like idiots and they fight harder because of it. The people that oppose hunting foxes with dogs in this country do so because it is basically a sport. Their objection is that killing animals in a sporting or gaming environment for fun is something that high order civilized societies should not partake in. 99% of those same people would not oppose any animals being culled, harvested, managed or even 'farmed' if that is required. Only an oddball would object to predators killing their prey. - Neil Francis Trowbridge, UK - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Define "oddball". I don't frankly think that "people" do oppose hunting foxes. 85%+ probably don't give a toss, but if forced to profer an opinion will go with the majority. That's true of many issues, especially this one, as it's largely a rural issue and only 7% of the population live in rural areas. Like banning handguns for example. Actually the the last MORI poll showed that 55% of people surveyed thought the ban would unfairly penalise target shooting, but how much notice did the Government take of that? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: Neil Francis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >a) Just because you find something distasteful is not a good >enough reason to prevent other people who happen to enjoy that >activity from engaging in it. But if - say - 70% of the country find it distasteful - does it become reasonable to look at preventing that activity from being engaged in? At what time does it become good enough reason to look at? >b) The perception that hunting is the sole preserve of the >wealthy is way off the mark. Go to any meet and for every toff on >horseback you'll see half a dozen scruffy ordinary Joes who are following >on foot or in their car. I'm a case in point - I've been hunting >for nearly twenty years yet never once have I ridden to hounds nor have I >ever had much more than two brass farthings to my name. Seems to illustrate the original point I was making. Why have you never ridden? Why do the scruffy ordinary Joes always following on foot or in their cars. Why are the scruffy ordinary Joes never riding to the hounds? I put it to you the scruffy ordinary Joes would soon go find something else to follow, hence fulfilling their 'follower' needs. So banning hunting would only effect the 'toffs' that the original poster remarked on. - Neil Francis Trowbridge, UK - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Simply because people _want_ something banned is never a particularly good reason to ban something. There must be a _reason_ to ban it. As the handgun ban amptly demonstrated. There was no sensible reason to ban them so not surprisingly it didn't work. And then I could start quoting all those quotes about how the majority is supposed to protect the rights of minorities but rarely do. Everything is frankly a minority interest, simply because I might personally not like it isn't a reason to ban it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Proliferation of Small Arms
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >STOP SPREAD OF WEAPONS, URGES COOK > >131054 FEB 10 By PA News Reporter > >The Foreign Secretary today called for an international >fund to be set up to help stop the spread of weapons >around the world. Robin Cook said it was needed to stop >small arms being used by criminals and illegitimate groups. >__ > >And a good way to achieve this is to deny the criminals the >opportunities to steal guns from the law abiding subjects, which is the >justification for a total gun ban. > >But, in our usual inept way to solve problems, we would only force the >criminals to change their tools when we should be addressing the root of >the problem - THE WEALTH. --snip-- >Banning things purifies the soul and this should be in the Labour's >election manifesto. > >There are two ways to defeat any government. We can fight them or we can >lead them in the wrong direction towards obscurity. But that will >bring to power the brainless Tories, who are only good at preparing the >ground for the next New Labour (Revision 2)!!! > >What are we to do? > >Alex Steve, & Alex, Alex: Maybe you should read Robin Cook's statement again, as regards criminals and "illegitimate groups". You might be one of those "illegitimate groups" one day. I profess no perfect knowledge; I sincerely desire it though. And, if I/you/we possessed it, would I/you/we realize it? I quite agree that government is the problem, if only because it is perceived as THE solution by people who should know better. Men who hate other men, would create the force necessary to exploit those 'other men', and subjugate 'those others' to their own will. That, my good man, is the essence of _all_ 'government'. It remains for good men (and women too) to understand that to control another person, is to deny one's self as well. To dam the source is to damn the possibilities, and ultimately cause chaos. When everything is in the open, then nothing is concealed. That is the objective: to have an open mind. When there is nothing to stop your vision, then you see all the possibilities. Criminality is possessed of the hidden, the unknown, and the controlled: begins to sound just like government, does it not? -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I think we already are one of those illegitimate groups given that our "weapons of mass destruction" were banned in 1988! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Getting the guns off the street!!
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >If he is a police armourer he almost certainly has Section 5 authority >so there is an excellent chance he has done nothing wrong. > >Steve. Steve, & David, Maybe he irritated someone? That comment above about "enough weapons to start a war" is about as irresponsible a remark as I've read lately. I certainly would not comment that any object is a weapon, unless it had -- after that fact -- been used as such. So, merely possessing an arm -- and not the ammunition -- is considered having the capability to wage war? In that case, let us head over to whatever authority and register our brains, since it without a question the most important aspect of humanity that allows even the thought to 'wage war'. And, it the wherewithal is knowledge, then we may as well submit to intensive questioning and subsequent constant censure, lest we let the 'cat out of the bag'. -- Well, given that Robin Cook is making lots of speeches at the moment about cracking down on the arms trade perhaps his local police took it to heart. Certainly the Foreign Office have started investigations before of companies like Sandline and various others also that were accused of shipping stuff to Iraq and they all collapsed in court. No doubt the police will search through the pile of stuff they have seized and charge him with minor technical offences that any RFD could be charged with, but who knows, perhaps he is some major criminal. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Shooting venues in Florida?
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Hi Folks >I think this is a perennial questionbut here goes. > >I am going to Florida early April...the Orlando Area. > >Are there any "interesting* shooting venues. I would appreciate a >change from the *Mickey Mouse* attractions I will have to visit. > >Regards >Brian >-- >There are lots of ranges around Orlando. --snip-- >Steve. Steve, & Brian, I used the http://superpages.gte.com/ and found only one range listed for Orlando, expressly advertising itself as a range. I used the search term of ''shooting galleries and ranges" and found: Oak Ridge Gun Range 632 West Oak Ridge Road, Orlando, FL 32809 (407) 857-5663 Then I tried "Pistol ranges" as the search term and found: Mid-Florida Gun Sales 2911 39th Street, Orlando, FL 32839 (407) 428-6225 Also: Riegs Gun Shop & Shooting Range & Security Guard TRA 5512 South Orange Blossom Trail, Orlando, FL 32839 (407) 859-1066 Hope that helps. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- You'll probably find some of them aren't in metro Orlando, try a search on the 407 area code. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-instant incapacitation
From: "John Hurst.", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >As we all know, the body does the last thing the brain >told it to do e.g. the decapitated Chicken that runs away >headless - the last command the body received. >>Nah, the chicken thrashes because his CNS has been severed, its a reflex >>action. If you destroy the brain - or the spine - there won't be even a >>twitch. Neck-shot deer, or cattle hit with a captive bolt killer, go >>down like a sack of spuds. Jonathan, I think that post mortem muscle spasms do happen. On one occasion I saw a person with a broken neck following an RTA twitch several times despite obvious deformity and lack of a discernible pulse to a passing nurse or myself. The passenger, who was wearing a seat belt and only slightly injured, was convinced that his mate was still alive. A PM confirmed that the spinal cord had been severed. I also recall accounts of judicial hanging using the drop method which described how the corpse twitches. Then there is the "Tyburn Jig", but that is not the same. Regards, John Hurst. -- Here is an excerpt of a an interview with Carlos Hathcock that I found on the web: "Somewhat less well-known is the part Hathcock played in the training of police counter-snipers after his retirement from the service. As I broached this topic, he was careful to draw a distinction between the military and police sniper: "The military sniper is an area shooter - that's what I was. There's 36" between a man's chin and his belt buckle, and a hit anywhere in there will work. However, a police counter-sniper is a precision, surgical shooter. There's just one spot he's got to hit, to neutralize the bad guy right then. Say a bad guy has got a cocked pistol to a hostage's head. The police sniper has to hit the bad guy so exactly that he doesn't shoot, he doesn't fall sideways or backwards, he just falls straight down. That's a good shot, and I have had a few policemen who have made good shots after they left this school." Carlos scrupulously avoided describing his police counter-sniper training in detail, lest he compromise techniques which might be of benefit to criminals, As he said, "I really idolize those guys - the police snipers - and that's why I spent so much time working with policemen." In sharp contrast to military sniping, in which shots ranging out to 800 yards or more may be taken, Hathcock noted that the average police sniping incident occurs at only 83 yards as per recent FBI statistics. Instant incapacitation of dangerous offenders is THE rationale behind the employment of police snipers. As such, his training has focused on shooting at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. Hathcock, himself, is no longer is no longer physically able to train students, but he takes pride that several police marksman whom he personally trained teach at the police sniping at school Virginia Beach." If Carlos Hathcock says it can be done, then it can be done! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-10/22 problems
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would be very interested to hear of problems with 22 autoloaders and especially how they were solved. In my club Ruger 10/22s are by far in majority and the favourite ammunition is Blazer because the higher velocity and recoils seem to aid reliable feeding. However, I know from many years experience with reloading pistols with blowback actions in 32ACP and 25ACP that the backward thrust on the breach is not directly proportional to the pressure because at higher pressures the resistance of the fired case to extraction also increases. In fact, I have experienced more "violent" extraction with low pressure pistol loads and by definition these rounds cycled the action more reliably. I have a Martini actioned BSA Mod. 13 which ejects Eley and RWS like a good shotgun, i.e. cases flying over my right shoulder. Blazer on the other hand has a tendency to get stuck half way out of the chamber. Dirty chambers, as Steve mentioned above, are the kiss of death. Unfortunately, auto loaders do not seem to be designed with easy chamber cleaning unless the cleaning rod is inserted from the muzzle. By the way, we pay รบ128 per 5,000 for Blazer. If anybody can get it for less could you please tell us where. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-TV: Siege
From: Mike Taylor, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Nah, the chicken thrashes because his CNS has been severed, its a reflex >action. If you destroy the brain - or the spine - there won't be even a >twitch. Neck-shot deer, or cattle hit with a captive bolt killer, go >down like a sack of spuds. > Why do my chickens thrash about when I have severed the spine? They thrash their wings for up to a minute, with considerable force, despite the complete severance of the spine. -- I'm not a neurologist, but research has been done into it and it is possible to kill someone without them "twitching" or whatever. In the case that Derek mentions the kid put a .44 magnum to his head just below his temple and pulled the trigger, giving himself an instant lobotomy and shooting his eyes out. However he missed most of his brain. A person is not a chicken, BTW, there are no doubt many great differences in their nervous systems. Anyway this thread is becoming a little gruesome for my tastes! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-European army and political union were planned by Nazis
From: "John Hurst.", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The London Telegraph European army and political union were planned by Nazis By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000111676745840&rtmo=weQ50Meb&atmo=9 999& pg=/et/01/2/15/nkew15.html THE idea of a pan-European economic and political union with its own defence force was conceived by SS officers according to documents released today to the Public Record Office in Kew. Maj Gen Ellersiek and Brig Mueller, Hitler's chief of staff during the Battle of the Bulge, came up with the idea as a means of keeping Nazism alive following the expected Allied victory in the Second World War. By March 1946, Ellersiek was in charge of an underground political party called Organisation Suddeutschland. It believed in the establishment of a fully-armed United Europe, Ellersiek told a British intelligence official masquerading as a Foreign Office representative. "What was important was that Britain should realise that if Europe was to survive, we should all think 'as Europeans'," the ex-SS man was quoted as saying. The party's manifesto called for "a pan-Europe as a balance between Russia and the USA". Although the European nations would remain "independent", finance and defence matters would be decided centrally. "The good which was in Nazism still lives in the German heart," Ellersiek said. His party offered "a new revolution for Germany which will set the pattern for Europe". This revolution is to be the work of the new elite, the German prototype of the future rulers of Europe . . . which has emerged purified from Nazism and the trials of war." The British official noted that German generals seemed likely to be in charge. "Germany must lead this New Europe with the cooperation of Britain," he quoted Ellersiek as saying, adding his own view that: "So little else of Britain is mentioned that it is evident she is to be the junior partner." The proposed European force has echoes of the current attempts to form European Rapid Reaction Force, controlled by Gen Rainer Schuwirth of Germany. Gen Sir Charles Guthrie, Britain's Chief of the Defence Staff, has implicitly criticised the Germans for not backing their promised contributions with cash, leaving much of the manpower and equipment to be provided by the UK. -- Er, excuse me, but wasn't this the same paper that reported last year that the EU was in fact an operation of the OSS, to prevent further European conflicts or something like that? It appears the EU was the idea of everyone except the people who actually formed it! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Altmark
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Many thanks to those who submitted comments about my query on naval cutlasses. the mention of the Altmark made me look it up as I read about it many years ago. A download of the story of the confrontation between the Altmark and HMS Cossack is available from: http://www.hmscossack.freeserve.co.uk/history.htm I heartily recommend it. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Face values..
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The E-mail about "black faces" at Pistol A.D. was not meant to be sarcastic in that sense but to show that perception is, in fact, not always reality. It is the same with the disparagement of those who wear ex-surplus "cammo gear". The perception seems to have been that all of these "types" are sad Rambo fantasists. The reality may be that they appreciate buying hard wearing well made practical items of clothing for a fraction of its true cost of manufacture simply because it is ex-surplus. It is nice to be able to afford a Haggart's tweed shooting suit that is warm, fits well and gives blends in as "camouflage" if stalking. But for a tenth of that I can buy exactly the same thing that because it is not tweed but a cloth printed with disruptive pattern colour is condemned as "cammo gear". But a good tweed is, in its reality, nothing more than rich man's "cammo gear". Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Gallery Rifle
From: "VinceB", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Listers, A shooting question. What is the muzzle energy limit for NRA Gallery Rifle? Thanks VinceB -- It's the same as the MoD standard for indoor pistol ranges, max. calibre .455", not sure what the exact energy limit is off the top of my head. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-police hunt killers
POLICE HUNT 'GETAWAY' CARS AFTER DOUBLE SHOOTING Sunday 18 February 2001 4:50pm Police investigating a shooting which left one man dead and another seriously injured have launched a nationwide search for two vehicles seen leaving the scene. Officers have issued an all ports alert and warned the public to report sightings of a red Audi saloon and a blue Range Rover, but not to approach anyone inside the vehicles. Both cars left the scene of the shooting at Pangbourne Mews, a row of four terraced houses on the Reading Road in Pangbourne, Berkshire, at about 9.20pm yesterday. Police, who had earlier been called to a disturbance at a house there, returned when neighbours reported shots being fired. A 27-year-old man was found dead in the grounds of an adjacent church. A 33-year-old man was discovered nearby with gunshot wounds. He was taken to the Royal Berkshire Hospital in Reading, where he underwent surgery overnight. The victims do not live in the village, but both have addresses in the Reading area. Detective Inspector Paul Cassell said they were hunting highly dangerous criminals. "This was a shocking crime committed near a busy main road in a town which has never experienced anything like this before. "Anybody else who knows anything about the shootings should also contact police as soon as possible," Mr Cassell said. Ian Crimp, 59, who lives opposite the scene of the shootings, says: "Shortly after nine last night I heard between eight and 10 loud bangs, but assumed they were fireworks. "After about 10 minutes, an elderly neighbour who lives on her own rang me to say she was concerned about the noises. I opened my front door and there were teams of police and paramedics already there - many were armed." Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
