Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
Tyler Durden wrote: [...] > Granted, Chonskty can be a little tiring on the ears His voice seems to have mellowed over the years. I heard him on the radio last week and he sounded just like Garrison Keillor :-) Ken Brown
Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
>> > Our bombing of the sudanese >> > pharmacuetical factory? >> >>Yes: The factory was bombed, but actual >>deaths were one night watchman, "not tens of thousands", If so, that's gross incompetence on the part of the US military, since the official rationale for why we were cruise-missiling it was that we were trying to kill Osama bin Laden after the bombing of the US embassies that he allegedly masterminded. >>and he asserted that the >>Sudanese government are the good guys in >>the civil war, and their opponents terrorists. Chomsky said that? That's appalling...
Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
Sunder: > > Yes: The factory was bombed, but actual > > deaths were one night watchman, "not tens > > of thousands", and he asserted that the > > Sudanese government are the good guys in > > the civil war, and their opponents > > terrorists. James A. Donald: > And how many of their citizens have or will die due > to lack of those very > same pharamceuticals that the bombed factory can no > longer produce? Or > suffer from disease due to the same? Possibly, but neither you nor Chomsky knew or cared what pharmaceutical the factory produced, whereas I do. Thus my estimates of likely casualties are likely to be better than Chomsky's My point was not that the bombing was OK, but that Chomsky was pulling his facts out of his ass. His initial claim was that tens of thousands were killed directly by the bombing, and he came up with this stuff about shortages of pharmaceuticals only after being challenged on that claim. Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com
Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
--- Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, you haven't given me a very convincing > argument here. In most of his > writings, Chomsky makes it clear that the deaths > were not due to the bomb, > but the loss of medicine (such as penecillin) in > Sudan's only pharmecuetical > factory. As those who investigated the matter know, and Chomsky did not know, the factory produced chloroquine, which is inexpensive and widely available from many sources. There is no indication that chloroquine is any more expensive or less available than it was. Chomsy and his supposed sources did not know or care what the factory produced, let alone how much it produced, so where does the figure of ten thousand come from? > the > accusation and conviction were quite damming The list of countries convicted by the "world court" is for the most part a list of the worlds most free countries and most law abiding governments, and the accusers are, for the most part, a list of the worlds most murderous regimes. > you claim Chomsky > regularly "lies" on many of his citations, I would > have thought that this at > least would be one citation you'd check. If the world court had condemned Pol Pot's Cambodia, then I might have bothered to check. It did not. The world court is run by much the same folk who run the UN human rights commission. > > Got to say...I'm a busy man, and you haven't even > said anything meriting > even the investigaion of your dis-chomsky web page. For another example of Chomsky lying in his citations Those who love tyranny and slavery, love the lies and liars that protect it. For another expose of some other lies of Chomsky, see Nathan Folkert's check of various citations given by Chomsky during the Faurisson issue http://groups.google.com/groups?[EMAIL PROTECTED] ogle.com Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com
Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Sunder wrote: > Of course, for all you and I really know that could have been an Anthrax > factory cleverly disguised as as a pharmaceuticals factory, but we can put > up rethorical questions and answers such as these for the next millenia > and not get anywhere either. Exactly. So let's stop burning synapses on trivialities of daily politics. Being too out of touch is never advisable, but taking a deliberate vacation every now and then from the mass media sometimes pays.
Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
> Yes: The factory was bombed, but actual > deaths were one night watchman, "not tens > of thousands", and he asserted that the > Sudanese government are the good guys in > the civil war, and their opponents > terrorists. And how many of their citizens have or will die due to lack of those very same pharamceuticals that the bombed factory can no longer produce? Or suffer from disease due to the same? Perhaps not tens of thousands, but more than just the single night watchman, I'd say. The point isn't how many deaths, but what collateral damage was done. Not just in the sense of civilian casualties, but also the damage inflicted on those by the effect of not having said facility around. Of course, for all you and I really know that could have been an Anthrax factory cleverly disguised as as a pharmaceuticals factory, but we can put up rethorical questions and answers such as these for the next millenia and not get anywhere either.
Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
"Yes: The factory was bombed, but actual deaths were one night watchman, "not tens of thousands"," Well, you haven't given me a very convincing argument here. In most of his writings, Chomsky makes it clear that the deaths were not due to the bomb, but the loss of medicine (such as penecillin) in Sudan's only pharmecuetical factory. "Or the fact that Nicaruaga brought the > > US before the world court and won? > >Perhaps that was true," Uh...perhaps? That should be a very easy thing to find out, and as the accusation and conviction were quite damming, and as you claim Chomsky regularly "lies" on many of his citations, I would have thought that this at least would be one citation you'd check. Got to say...I'm a busy man, and you haven't even said anything meriting even the investigaion of your dis-chomsky web page. >From: James Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: was: Echelon-like resources.. >Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:57:24 -0700 (PDT) > >Tyler Durden > > As for Chomsky lying, can you give us > > some specific citations? Did he lie > > about our support for Sadam Hussein? > >No > > > Our support for Indonesia? > >Yes > > > Our bombing of the sudanese > > pharmacuetical factory? > >Yes: The factory was bombed, but actual >deaths were one night watchman, "not tens >of thousands", and he asserted that the >Sudanese government are the good guys in >the civil war, and their opponents >terrorists. > > > Or the fact that Nicaruaga brought the > > US before the world court and won? > >Perhaps that was true, but pretty much >everything else he reported on Nicaragua >was a lie, for example that the >Sandinistas won free elections, and that >the contras were a creation of the US, >and that the Sandinistas were more >popular than the contras. > > > Granted, Chonskty can be a little > > tiring on the ears, but my knee-jerk > > reaction towards your calling him a > > liar is that you misunderstood the > > citation. But then again, I could be > > wrong, so do give us some examples, eh? > >See my web page "Chomsky lies" >http://www.jim.com/chomsdis.htm >Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More >http://faith.yahoo.com _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
Tyler Durden > As for Chomsky lying, can you give us > some specific citations? Did he lie > about our support for Sadam Hussein? No > Our support for Indonesia? Yes > Our bombing of the sudanese > pharmacuetical factory? Yes: The factory was bombed, but actual deaths were one night watchman, "not tens of thousands", and he asserted that the Sudanese government are the good guys in the civil war, and their opponents terrorists. > Or the fact that Nicaruaga brought the > US before the world court and won? Perhaps that was true, but pretty much everything else he reported on Nicaragua was a lie, for example that the Sandinistas won free elections, and that the contras were a creation of the US, and that the Sandinistas were more popular than the contras. > Granted, Chonskty can be a little > tiring on the ears, but my knee-jerk > reaction towards your calling him a > liar is that you misunderstood the > citation. But then again, I could be > wrong, so do give us some examples, eh? See my web page "Chomsky lies" http://www.jim.com/chomsdis.htm Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com
Re: was: Echelon-like resources..
Uh, first of all can we get rid of the part of the subject line that says "Durden lies"? (Particularly seeing how the quote attributed to me did not originate from me.) As for Chomsky lying, can you give us some specific citations? Did he lie about our support for Sadam Hussein? Our support for Indoesia? Our bombing of the sudanese pharmacuetical factory? Or the fact that Nicaruaga brought the US before the world court and won? Granted, Chonskty can be a little tiring on the ears, but my knee-jerk reaction towards your calling him a liar is that you misunderstood the citation. But then again, I could be wrong, so do give us some examples, eh? From: James Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources.. Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:11:12 -0700 (PDT) > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the > > > > beginning through to the present > > > > day, has been world domination - > > > > that is, to build and maintain > > > > the capacity to coerce everybody > > > > else on the planet: nonviolently, > > > > if possible, and violently, if > > > > necessary. But the purpose of US > > > > foreign policy of domination is > > > > not just to make the rest of the > > > > world jump through hoops; the > > > > purpose is to faciliate our > > > > exploitation of resources." - > > > > Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney > > > > General From: "Trei, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The Sun is an alternative news magazine > which has been in print since 1974. > It's mammothly unlikely that they would > fabricate the interview out of whole > cloth, since Clarke would sue for libel > and/or defamation. On the contrary, this is standard routine communist behavior. They are always inventing fantastic citations, for example the much quoted "Intoxicating Augmentation" quote that Karl Marx attributed to Gladstone (then prime minister of England) which generation after generation learned scholars have learnedly cited as evidence that free market capitalism was bad for workers. Since Clarke is a public figure he cannot sue for libel, so he is a good peg to hang such a citation on. If Karl Marx could get away with attributing fantastic citations to the Prime Minister, "the sun" can certainly get away with attributing them to an attorney general. The enormous flood of such bogus citations make it unlikely that any one of them will be challenged. Look at Chomsky. Every few pages he has a similarly fraudulent citation, and no one ever sues him, even though in some cases one can check the materials he cites, and find that he is lying. Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
Yo! I didn't write anything of the kind. Actually, this post mystifies me...even had I posted those quotations, as scary as they may be, I don't understand Anonymous' reaction to them (waitaminute...maybe I do understand...it's interesting to consider that the sender seems to have gone to some trouble to remain anonymous for a relatively banal post). As for "the point", as a newbie here (I was an optical network engineer from 95 to recently, now on $$$-street), I wanted to raise the issue that looking at the crytpography issue "statistically" may yield conclusions that contradict a more "linear", message-by-message examination of certain issues. For instance, I would be interested to see a response from the powers that be, if a credible grass-roots push were made to encourage everyone, from children to senior citizens, to use a lite form of cryptography (yes, such as in Lotus Notes) on EVERY message they sent. Or perhaps you've all discussed this before, but the responses I've seen so far don't indicate that. From: Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tyler Durden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources... Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:33:46 +0200 (CEST) On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > resources." > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, false, propaganda quotations? Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public discourse? Planting lies for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
On Friday 11 October 2002 14:13, Trei, Peter wrote: > If anonymous were a person of character... Oxymoron, eh? Pseudonymity has many socially acceptable features. Anonymity has all of the practical benefits of pseudonymity and no additional advantages in a conversational forum such as cpunks. Anonymous persons (or dumbassbots; it's hard to tell sometimes) who snipe from behind the veil may be assumed to be cowardly jackasses. -- Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
You have to realize that there are any number of fedzis who subscribe to this list, it's a well authenticated fact, matter of court testimony. And fedzis aren't noted for brains, or even being able to read, which is why he attacked you instead of me. And of course most fedzis positively foam at the mouth when hearing the truth being spoken, thus the rabid nature of his spewing. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of resources." - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources..
At 02:11 PM 10/11/2002 -0700, James Donald wrote: > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the > > > > beginning through to the present > > > > day, has been world domination - . > > > > Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General From: "Trei, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The Sun is an alternative news magazine > which has been in print since 1974. > It's mammothly unlikely that they would > fabricate the interview out of whole > cloth, since Clarke would sue for libel > and/or defamation. On the contrary, this is standard routine communist behavior. They are always inventing fantastic citations, [...] But that's just the kind of thing Ramsey Clark would say. Not Ramsey Clark in his position as spokescritter for the military-industrial complex explaining how great the US is, but Ramsey Clark the well-known leftist critic of US policy describing what he thinks US policy has been. ~ As opposed to Linus Torvalds's followers talking about their objectives for World Domination :-)
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources..
> > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the > > > > beginning through to the present > > > > day, has been world domination - > > > > that is, to build and maintain > > > > the capacity to coerce everybody > > > > else on the planet: nonviolently, > > > > if possible, and violently, if > > > > necessary. But the purpose of US > > > > foreign policy of domination is > > > > not just to make the rest of the > > > > world jump through hoops; the > > > > purpose is to faciliate our > > > > exploitation of resources." - > > > > Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney > > > > General From: "Trei, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The Sun is an alternative news magazine > which has been in print since 1974. > It's mammothly unlikely that they would > fabricate the interview out of whole > cloth, since Clarke would sue for libel > and/or defamation. On the contrary, this is standard routine communist behavior. They are always inventing fantastic citations, for example the much quoted "Intoxicating Augmentation" quote that Karl Marx attributed to Gladstone (then prime minister of England) which generation after generation learned scholars have learnedly cited as evidence that free market capitalism was bad for workers. Since Clarke is a public figure he cannot sue for libel, so he is a good peg to hang such a citation on. If Karl Marx could get away with attributing fantastic citations to the Prime Minister, "the sun" can certainly get away with attributing them to an attorney general. The enormous flood of such bogus citations make it unlikely that any one of them will be challenged. Look at Chomsky. Every few pages he has a similarly fraudulent citation, and no one ever sues him, even though in some cases one can check the materials he cites, and find that he is lying. Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
At 06:33 PM 10/11/2002 +0200, Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > > resources." > > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General > >Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, false, >propaganda quotations? >Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public >discourse? Planting lies >for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole. In War Is A Racket, Butler argued for a powerful navy, but one prohibited from traveling more than 200 miles from the U.S. coastline. Military aircraft could travel no more than 500 miles from the U.S. coast, and the army would be prohibited from leaving the United States. Butler also proposed that all workers in defense industries, from the lowest laborer to the highest executive, be limited to "$30 a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get." He also proposed that a declaration of war should be passed by a plebiscite in which only those subject to conscription would be eligible to vote. There are many references to the Butler quote although I can't find a citation which gives the event(s) from which the speech occurred. I'll keep looking. BTW Butler was a very interesting , colorful and it seems key fellow in American history. But for his political and economic naivete a coup d'itat intended to remove President Franklin D. Roosevelt from office in 1934 might have succeeded. Bummer! "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933
Re: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
Here's the cite for the Ramsey Clark quote. On Fri, Oct 11, 2002 at 06:33:46PM +0200, Anonymous wrote: > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > > resources." > > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General > > Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, false, >propaganda quotations? > Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public discourse? >Planting lies > for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of resources." - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html
RE: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
Anonymous wrote: > >From: Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Tyler Durden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources... > >Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:33:46 +0200 (CEST) > > > >On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > > > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > > > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > > > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > > > > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > > > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > > > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > > > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > > > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > > > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > > > resources." > > > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General > > > >Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, > false, > >propaganda quotations? > >Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public > > >discourse? Planting lies > >for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole. > Anonymous had better learn to read, or at least quote email correctly. The signature quotations were not posted by Durden, but by Harmon Seaver. I too found them astonishing, but unlike anonymous, I try to check things out before calling foul. Anon should learn to use Google. Ramsey: http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html The Sun is an alternative news magazine which has been in print since 1974. It's mammothly unlikely that they would fabricate the interview out of whole cloth, since Clarke would sue for libel and/or defamation. Butler: Numerous sources. Butler certainly existed; Amazon has at least two biographies available, and one of them has a sample page image refering to his 1935 book 'War is a Racket', titled after the 1933 speech. Part of the speech can be found here: http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm 5 chapters of the book can be found here: http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm If anonymous were a person of character he/she/it would apologize, first to Tyler Durden, for misquoting, and second to Harmon Seaver, but accusing him of lying. Peter Trei
Durden lies, was: Echelon-like resources...
On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:29:53 -0400, you wrote: > > "War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the > majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is > conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the > masses." --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 > > "Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present > day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the > capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if > possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign > policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump > through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of > resources." > - Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General Is there some reason you want to publish these bogus, uncitationed, false, propaganda quotations? Just adding to misinformation? Preferring to further downgrade the public discourse? Planting lies for subsequent citation as proof of something? What an asshole.
