Re: Open Hardware Camera for Conference Recording

[Carl Karsten]

If the camera is not going to contain the A2D hardware, then we shouldn't
bother talking about such things here, it will just distract from talking
about the camera.

This does not mean we are not interested.  I am interested in smaller and
cheeper, currently I spend about $600USD for a used Panasonic AG-HMC150P.

I am sure you are curious, so here is how integrated hardware solves the
following issues that I can think of.

delay config: We sometimes do use separate audio hardware, and we are able
to work out the delays to accommodate the different latencies so that
everything remains in sync.  The problem is different hardware has
different latencies and it isn't well documented so changes risk problems
that are not quickly solved.   Integrated audio means never having to think
about keeping the two in sync.

quality:   typically the A2D on a camera is better than the typical usb
audio device. the cameras we use have compressors, so clipping is almost
non-existent.

hardware deployment:  the number of components for a typical setup is
enough that it takes significant time to assemble, and it is more than a
person can keep track of in their head, so inventory management and check
lists are part of the process. Integrated audio means less things to pack
and assemble.


On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 12:09 PM Sebastian Pichelhofer 
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 3:57 PM Kyle Robbertze 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> On 2021/01/15 15:39, Sebastian Pichelhofer wrote:
>> > [...]
>> >  >  >
>> >  >  > As this camera could be a perfect fit for lecture and
>> > conference
>> >  >  > recording we want to learn more about your
>> streaming/recording
>> >  > setup and
>> >  >  > your requirements and discuss if what we have in mind
>> would be
>> >  >  > interesting to you.
>> >  >
>> >  > Our current set-up is documented here:
>> >  >
>> >  > https://debconf-video-team.pages.debian.net/docs/room_setup.html
>> > 
>> >  >
>> >   > > >
>> >  >
>> >  > We currently work at 720p capture at 50 or 60 fps (filming
>> > country
>> >  > dependant) from the cameras, streaming and recording.
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  > Thanks!
>> >  >
>> >  > What cameras do you use/prefer currently?
>> >  > IIRC at FOSDEM these were prosumer HD camcorders.
>> >
>> > Sony PXW-X70/4k
>> >
>> >  > Is interlacing an issue with these devices?
>> >
>> > We always shoot progressive and haven't run into any interlacing
>> issues
>> > that I know of
>> >
>> >
>> > OK.
>> >
>> > So a camera that outputs a low latency live stream over Ethernet in a
>> > format that voctomix would understand would be interesting I assume?
>>
>> Very much so. Ideally with mixed in audio so we can let the camera
>> handle the audio/video sync before it gets to Voctomix.
>>
>
> Very good!
>
> We do not have or plan to develop an audio related interface ourselves but
> in theory could attach any existing USB audio device that works under Linux.
> We will test and verify this is works properly with audio/video sync.
> On the other hand I assume that you would be just as happy with the audio
> device not connected to the camera but voctomix directly as long as
> everything remains in sync?
>
> Regards Sebastian
>
>
>
>> Cheers
>> Kyle
>>
>>
>> --
>> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
>> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Kyle Robbertze
>> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
>> ⠈⠳⣄ https://wiki.debian.org/KyleRobbertze
>>
>

-- 
Carl K

Re: Open Hardware Camera for Conference Recording

[Sebastian Pichelhofer]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 3:57 PM Kyle Robbertze 
wrote:

> Hi,
> On 2021/01/15 15:39, Sebastian Pichelhofer wrote:
> > [...]
> >  >  >
> >  >  > As this camera could be a perfect fit for lecture and
> > conference
> >  >  > recording we want to learn more about your
> streaming/recording
> >  > setup and
> >  >  > your requirements and discuss if what we have in mind
> would be
> >  >  > interesting to you.
> >  >
> >  > Our current set-up is documented here:
> >  >
> >  > https://debconf-video-team.pages.debian.net/docs/room_setup.html
> > 
> >  >
> >    > >
> >  >
> >  > We currently work at 720p capture at 50 or 60 fps (filming
> > country
> >  > dependant) from the cameras, streaming and recording.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Thanks!
> >  >
> >  > What cameras do you use/prefer currently?
> >  > IIRC at FOSDEM these were prosumer HD camcorders.
> >
> > Sony PXW-X70/4k
> >
> >  > Is interlacing an issue with these devices?
> >
> > We always shoot progressive and haven't run into any interlacing
> issues
> > that I know of
> >
> >
> > OK.
> >
> > So a camera that outputs a low latency live stream over Ethernet in a
> > format that voctomix would understand would be interesting I assume?
>
> Very much so. Ideally with mixed in audio so we can let the camera
> handle the audio/video sync before it gets to Voctomix.
>

Very good!

We do not have or plan to develop an audio related interface ourselves but
in theory could attach any existing USB audio device that works under Linux.
We will test and verify this is works properly with audio/video sync.
On the other hand I assume that you would be just as happy with the audio
device not connected to the camera but voctomix directly as long as
everything remains in sync?

Regards Sebastian



> Cheers
> Kyle
>
>
> --
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Kyle Robbertze
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
> ⠈⠳⣄ https://wiki.debian.org/KyleRobbertze
>

Re: Open Hardware Camera for Conference Recording

[Kyle Robbertze]

Hi,
On 2021/01/15 15:39, Sebastian Pichelhofer wrote:

[...]
 >      >
 >      > As this camera could be a perfect fit for lecture and
conference
 >      > recording we want to learn more about your streaming/recording
 >     setup and
 >      > your requirements and discuss if what we have in mind would be
 >      > interesting to you.
 >
 >     Our current set-up is documented here:
 >
 > https://debconf-video-team.pages.debian.net/docs/room_setup.html

 >   
  >
 >
 >     We currently work at 720p capture at 50 or 60 fps (filming
country
 >     dependant) from the cameras, streaming and recording.
 >
 >
 > Thanks!
 >
 > What cameras do you use/prefer currently?
 > IIRC at FOSDEM these were prosumer HD camcorders.

Sony PXW-X70/4k

 > Is interlacing an issue with these devices?

We always shoot progressive and haven't run into any interlacing issues
that I know of


OK.

So a camera that outputs a low latency live stream over Ethernet in a 
format that voctomix would understand would be interesting I assume?


Very much so. Ideally with mixed in audio so we can let the camera 
handle the audio/video sync before it gets to Voctomix.


Cheers
Kyle


--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Kyle Robbertze
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
⠈⠳⣄ https://wiki.debian.org/KyleRobbertze

Re: Open Hardware Camera for Conference Recording

[Kyle Robbertze]

On 2021/01/03 18:04, Sebastian Pichelhofer wrote:



On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 9:11 PM Kyle Robbertze > wrote:


Hi Sebastian,

On 2021/01/01 20:46, Sebastian Pichelhofer wrote:
 > Dear Deb Conf Video Team
 >
 > We (www.apertus.org 
>) are developing open
 > hardware and free software cameras and technology and are considering
 > advancing one particular platform from a prototype to a hardware
kit to
 > produce: AXIOM Micro
 > https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Micro

 > >
 >
 > It has an image sensor with slightly above Full HD resolution,
swappable
 > lens mount and with two plugin module slots can output HDMI live
video
 > and/or raw video over USB3 (still in development).

This looks interesting! My main concern with USB output is the distance
limit. Our current setup uses SDI running to a single capture PC that
does the vision switching. Obviously we could put a capture PC (some
small SoC) next to each camera, it just requires additional changes to
our setup and configuration during events.


With the HDMI live output and a 50$ converter (ala 
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/microconverters 
) we could 
basically provide SDI from the camera without developing additional 
hardware.


The issue with adapters is that it is one more thing to ship, keep track 
of and another single point of failure. Which is why we try avoid them 
as much as possible.


A new single SDI output plugin module would also be possible though 
(with an ECP5 for example) as our dual 6G SDI plugin module 
(https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/SDI_Plugin_Module 
) developer is 
currently working for AMD and there does not seem to be a chance he will 
have time to continue working on it soon :(


That plugin module would work for us, though it is unfortunate that your 
developer doesn't have the time to work on it at the moment.




Sending a raw 720p60 stream over ethernet might even be possible 
directly with the camera (it only requires 421.875Mbps) and the camera 
features Gigabit Ethernet.
A color video stream would triple the required bandwidth so that would 
not work...


Btw, would HDMI input on the camera make any sense for capturing the 
presentations signal?


For us, no - the cameras are far from the presenter's podium. We use 
HDMI2USB opsis boards with a SoC to capture and stream the presentations 
back to the Voctomix vision switching PC.




 >
 > As this camera could be a perfect fit for lecture and conference
 > recording we want to learn more about your streaming/recording
setup and
 > your requirements and discuss if what we have in mind would be
 > interesting to you.

Our current set-up is documented here:

https://debconf-video-team.pages.debian.net/docs/room_setup.html


We currently work at 720p capture at 50 or 60 fps (filming country
dependant) from the cameras, streaming and recording.


Thanks!

What cameras do you use/prefer currently?
IIRC at FOSDEM these were prosumer HD camcorders.


Sony PXW-X70/4k


Is interlacing an issue with these devices?


We always shoot progressive and haven't run into any interlacing issues 
that I know of


Cheers
Kyle


--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Kyle Robbertze
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
⠈⠳⣄ https://wiki.debian.org/KyleRobbertze

Re: Open Hardware Camera for Conference Recording

[Sebastian Pichelhofer]

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 8:33 PM Carl Karsten  wrote:

> raw video over USB3 (still in development). - this is most interesting to
> me.
>
> If the video stream can be consumed by a gstreamer element, good.
>

We actually do have an experimental gstreamer source plugin already.

Is your interest in raw grounded in the higher image quality and additional
image processing options?

The quickest way to see how that fits into the system is:
>
>
> https://github.com/CarlFK/veyepar/wiki/System-Stack#i-just-want-to-see-if-my-device-works-with-voctomix
>
> I would be happy to help someone grind through the setup to you can have a
> real system to test with.
>

Thanks, we will check it out!

Regards Sebastian


>
>
> On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 1:03 PM Sebastian Pichelhofer 
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Deb Conf Video Team
>>
>> We (www.apertus.org) are developing open hardware and free software
>> cameras and technology and are considering advancing one particular
>> platform from a prototype to a hardware kit to produce: AXIOM Micro
>> https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Micro
>>
>> It has an image sensor with slightly above Full HD resolution, swappable
>> lens mount and with two plugin module slots can output HDMI live video
>> and/or raw video over USB3 (still in development).
>>
>> As this camera could be a perfect fit for lecture and conference
>> recording we want to learn more about your streaming/recording setup and
>> your requirements and discuss if what we have in mind would be interesting
>> to you.
>>
>> Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have questions/ideas!
>>
>> Is there anyone else you would suggest to get in touch with?
>>
>> Regards Sebastian
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Carl K
>

Re: Open Hardware Camera for Conference Recording

[Louis-Philippe Véronneau]

On 2021-01-01 15 h 11, Kyle Robbertze wrote:
> Hi Sebastian,
> 
> On 2021/01/01 20:46, Sebastian Pichelhofer wrote:
>> Dear Deb Conf Video Team
>>
>> We (www.apertus.org ) are developing open
>> hardware and free software cameras and technology and are considering
>> advancing one particular platform from a prototype to a hardware kit to
>> produce: AXIOM Micro
>> https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Micro
>> 
>>
>> It has an image sensor with slightly above Full HD resolution, swappable
>> lens mount and with two plugin module slots can output HDMI live video
>> and/or raw video over USB3 (still in development).
> 
> This looks interesting! My main concern with USB output is the distance
> limit. Our current setup uses SDI running to a single capture PC that
> does the vision switching. Obviously we could put a capture PC (some
> small SoC) next to each camera, it just requires additional changes to
> our setup and configuration during events.

We also currently ingest XLR audio via one of our camera, to try to
minimize sync problems. I could see problems with not being able to do
this anymore.

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Louis-Philippe Véronneau
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   po...@debian.org / veronneau.org
  ⠈⠳



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Open Hardware Camera for Conference Recording

[Kyle Robbertze]

Hi Sebastian,

On 2021/01/01 20:46, Sebastian Pichelhofer wrote:
> Dear Deb Conf Video Team
> 
> We (www.apertus.org ) are developing open
> hardware and free software cameras and technology and are considering
> advancing one particular platform from a prototype to a hardware kit to
> produce: AXIOM Micro
> https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Micro
> 
> 
> It has an image sensor with slightly above Full HD resolution, swappable
> lens mount and with two plugin module slots can output HDMI live video
> and/or raw video over USB3 (still in development).

This looks interesting! My main concern with USB output is the distance
limit. Our current setup uses SDI running to a single capture PC that
does the vision switching. Obviously we could put a capture PC (some
small SoC) next to each camera, it just requires additional changes to
our setup and configuration during events.

> 
> As this camera could be a perfect fit for lecture and conference
> recording we want to learn more about your streaming/recording setup and
> your requirements and discuss if what we have in mind would be
> interesting to you.

Our current set-up is documented here:

https://debconf-video-team.pages.debian.net/docs/room_setup.html

We currently work at 720p capture at 50 or 60 fps (filming country
dependant) from the cameras, streaming and recording.

> 
> Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have questions/ideas!
> 
> Is there anyone else you would suggest to get in touch with?

FOSDEM, PyConAU off the top of my head
> 
> Regards Sebastian
> 
> 

Cheers
Kyle

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Kyle Robbertze
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Debian Developer
⠈⠳⣄ https://wiki.debian.org/KyleRobbertze

Re: Open Hardware Camera for Conference Recording

[Carl Karsten]

 raw video over USB3 (still in development). - this is most interesting to
me.

If the video stream can be consumed by a gstreamer element, good.  The
quickest way to see how that fits into the system is:

https://github.com/CarlFK/veyepar/wiki/System-Stack#i-just-want-to-see-if-my-device-works-with-voctomix

I would be happy to help someone grind through the setup to you can have a
real system to test with.



On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 1:03 PM Sebastian Pichelhofer  wrote:

> Dear Deb Conf Video Team
>
> We (www.apertus.org) are developing open hardware and free software
> cameras and technology and are considering advancing one particular
> platform from a prototype to a hardware kit to produce: AXIOM Micro
> https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/AXIOM_Micro
>
> It has an image sensor with slightly above Full HD resolution, swappable
> lens mount and with two plugin module slots can output HDMI live video
> and/or raw video over USB3 (still in development).
>
> As this camera could be a perfect fit for lecture and conference recording
> we want to learn more about your streaming/recording setup and your
> requirements and discuss if what we have in mind would be interesting to
> you.
>
> Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have questions/ideas!
>
> Is there anyone else you would suggest to get in touch with?
>
> Regards Sebastian
>
>
>

-- 
Carl K