Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 04:18:50PM +0100, Olav Vitters wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:51:33PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
> > Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting better 
> > functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very bad 
> > bug!
> 
> As mentioned before: File a bug.

There is no bug if its not installed. Same happened to me. Purging
pulseaudio allowed the audio to work once again.

1st man: It hurts when I bang my head against the wall.
2nd man: Well, stop doing it then!

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: Conflict between debian/upstream (DEP-12) & debian/upstream/ (uscan)

[Charles Plessy]

Le Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:06:42AM -0500, James McCoy a écrit :
> 
> That being said, I don't have access to most of the packages.  Even if I
> did, it feels "dirty" to go and commit to a couple hundred packages I
> have no involvement with instead of adapting two pieces of software to
> deal with both path names.

Hi James,

you already have commit access to the Debian Med packages, like all other
Debian developers.  Please go ahead !

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[José Maldonado]

2014-02-11 15:16 GMT-04:30 Maas Verri :
> Proposal: SystemD pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.
>
> The people, such as Adrian, who are pushing systemd as the one
> and only init system for debian should be physically harmed.
>
> They are wresting from all of us a nice unix like OS, they
> argue against choice and if they have their way the systemv
> scripts will be removed, and other non-systemd inits
> will not be allowed.
> .
> This is top-down dictatorship. This is how the systemd
> people operate. Go to any of their discussions.
>
> They say they are trying to "help debian". This is similar
> to how the church in the middle ages "helped" men's souls,
> by burning them alive or torturing them.
>
> Debian exists for people, it is not a religion.
> It is not a sculpture.
>
> The systemd pushers/forcers say they are trying to
> "improve debian" by forcing one choice of init on
> all of us (especially Adrian).
>
> Debian exists not for itself, but for all of us.
> Adrian and the other systemd pushers are trying
> to take debian away from us and make it suitable
> only for them and their "users" (ie their "citizens"
> "subjects" people they rule over).
>
> Those of us who do not want systemd, but instead
> want to keep an low profile, low attack surface,
> proven, reliable, resolute, simple init need
> to do something if we wish to keep a unix like
> option for debian linux. Since the systemders
> are using the debian process to overrule
> choice and freedom, some other method will
> be needed to keep them from implementing their
> goal of having systemd as the only init system
> for debian.
>
> I think we will have to physically attack the
> exclusive systemd people.
>
> Words do not phase them. Arguments are useless.
> They dismiss everything and declare themselves
> victorious. They corrupt the process and always
> seek to remove choice and freedom and use
> every kind of metaphore to accomplish that.
>
> I simply want to beable to continue to use what
> I have used thus-far. I am sure many system
> admins would like the same.
> .
> Adrian and other systemd pushers are not apt
> to allow that.
>
> They need to be physically restrained or beaten
> untill they come to a different conclusion
> or enter a state where they are no longer
> capable of coming to any conclusions.
>
> We owe them nothing, but they seek to own us
> or remove us from debian, and linux in general.
> We should fight back. In any way that is
> expedient.
>

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a neo-Hittler between us.

That high level of oratory has this character, and not to mention its
peaceful solutions to reach the objectives that arises.

One moment, it's just a troll more, so...don't care.

-- 
"Dios en su Cielo, todo bien en la Tierra"
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Re: Conflict between debian/upstream (DEP-12) & debian/upstream/ (uscan)

[James McCoy]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:04:29PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 09:39:09PM -0500, James McCoy a écrit :
> > 
> > That wasn't clear to me in your previous messages, which is why I
> > presumed you were wanting someone to transition the consumers of the
> > file not the files themselves.  That also seems like it's unnecessary to
> > do immediately since the consumers should be able to handle both paths
> > so the files can transition over time (as happened when
> > upstream-metadata.yaml was renamed, which still isn't complete).
> 
> At least for the work done on my side, what seems suggested above is not true:
> there was not double-support for both debian/upstream-metadata.yaml and
> debian/upstream-metadata at the same time.

That was poor wording on my part.  I meant that not all packages have
renamed debian/upstream-metadata.yaml to debian/upstream in their
repository, so supporting multiple locations in the consumers is useful.
That support would also enable this transition to gradually take place
as people have need to deal with their packages.

> You are making assumptions that 1) are wrong and 2) support your views.  
> Please
> review them more careully, especially when they look convenient for you.

Please be less confrontational.  I'm not assuming anything.  I'm simply
attempting to explain why I think that modifying the consumers is a
simpler way to handle this than trying to adapt all of the providers
immediately.

> > If all you're concerned about is moving the files in the repositories,
> > I'll gladly do that.
> 
> When will you start and when do you plan to finish ?  Just do it please.

I've put together a script to do this, using data from Andreas' gatherer
and the packages that apt-file reports as having a debian/upstream file.

That being said, I don't have access to most of the packages.  Even if I
did, it feels "dirty" to go and commit to a couple hundred packages I
have no involvement with instead of adapting two pieces of software to
deal with both path names.

Cheers,
-- 
James
GPG Key: 4096R/331BA3DB 2011-12-05 James McCoy 


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Re: hacking your car

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:35 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

> Seriously, Russ, you should be a writer or a politician *. You're a
> wizard with words. I enjoyed reading that :).

Russ for DPL!

https://lwn.net/Articles/585238/

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Can we please change the Subject: ?

[Craig Small]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 07:50:32PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> Your email has no old Subject:, no References: and no In-Reply-To: headers.
> So … whatever or whoever you're talking about …
I was confused what it was about too.
I think I've been over-eager with the ^D key in mutt again.

It was probably about how nice the weather has been lately.
 - Craig
-- 
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Debian GNU/Linux   http://www.debian.org/   csmall at : debian.org
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Re: hacking your car

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/12/2014 02:21 AM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I agree wholeheartedly with Wookey on this.  If systemd were actually some
> sort of closed black box, I would not want to run it on my systems.
>
> (a poem)

Seriously, Russ, you should be a writer or a politician *. You're a
wizard with words. I enjoyed reading that :).

Cheers!

Adrian

* = alternatively, the CEO of that fruit company from Cupertino

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Re: hacking your car

[Russ Allbery]

Wookey  writes:

> I've changed all of those bits on my cars at some point, and the fact
> that it was relatively simple to do was, and is, a good thing. I've
> never owned a car with a warranty, and as they only come with one for
> the first few years, they are not that relevant to the majority of
> vehicle ownership.

> Hacking is good. Replaceable parts with vaguely standard, or at least
> discoverable, interfaces is also good. This is just as true in cars as
> it is in computers. PLease don't try to tell us that hackability and
> fixability is bad.

I agree wholeheartedly with Wookey on this.  If systemd were actually some
sort of closed black box, I would not want to run it on my systems.

The car analogy is not really that good period, but to go out on a limb
and try to strain it into a vaguely more accurate shape, I think one of
the things that people are concerned about is that sysvinit plus
surrounding infrastructure is an "assemble your own car" kit.  We have a
distribution full of auto mechanics, and we're actually really good at
assembling cars, so there's a lot of appeal in that.  But some parts of
the kit are pretty questionable, and while a lot of people like stick
shifts, the fact that the kit doesn't even allow for the possibility of an
automatic transmission, let alone any of this new-fangled hybrid stuff, is
getting kind of annoying.

systemd is an unpainted but mostly functional car body and engine that you
can disassemble and reassemble.  You can very easily remove the engine,
take apart the drive train, rewire the carborator, and so forth.  And it
has support for hybrid power trains (and an automatic transmission).  And
all the parts are standardized and work together... *internally*.  But it
comes with a few pieces that we previously were providing ourselves when
we built our own car, and it's dubious whether those are really better.
And each time someone points out something that the car is missing, the
systemd folks prefer to add that piece to all future cars in a way that
works according to their vision of the car, as opposed to pointing people
at five or six suppliers who can produce compatible parts.

This analogy still has a ton of problems, but I think it captures a bit
more of the nuance of the situation.  When you start from systemd, you are
moving away from the community of practice that had been built up around
the old assemble-your-own-car kit.  And some of the parts don't work quite
right, and sometimes one has to go at systemd with a grinder and a saw to
get them to fit back together.  But the systemd kit has some Really Neat
Parts, and it was rather inobvious how we were going to fit those into the
world of the old car kit.  Also, it's kind of nice to start from a bunch
of parts that all use the same size screwdriver and wrench, have standard
fittings, and don't require a bunch of home-made tools to assemble
properly.  (Even if we have some fond memories and a lot of respect for
our wrenchamdriver.)

I won't even attempt to explain upstart in this analogy... I'll leave that
for someone else.  :)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: hacking your car

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/12/2014 01:26 AM, Wookey wrote:
> Anyone trying to win an argument by suggesting that changing bits of my
> car is a _bad_ thing has a very cock-eyed view of the world.

Ever heard of the German TUEV?

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_%C3%9Cberwachungsverein

They will show you who is cock-eyed and, trust me, it's certainly
not them or me.

Driving a car with arbitrary modifications is illegal in most
countries. You are NOT allowed to replace anything you want
and that for a reason - safety.

> I've changed all of those bits on my cars at some point, and the fact
> that it was relatively simple to do was, and is, a good thing. I've
> never owned a car with a warranty, and as they only come with one for
> the first few years, they are not that relevant to the majority of
> vehicle ownership.

I was not talking about replacing spare parts but replacing them
with new parts. And believe me, I have been diassembling and reparing
things for 25 years of my life now :).

> Hacking is good. Replaceable parts with vaguely standard, or at least
> discoverable, interfaces is also good. This is just as true in cars as it
> is in computers. PLease don't try to tell us that hackability and fixability 
> is bad.

No one is keeping you from hacking. You are free to do whatever you
want. The point is simply that the ability to hack Debian should not
make the life of package maintainers and average end users more
difficult.

Adrian

-- 
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:26:11PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:
> >You can tell it to do that, yes. You can also set it to forward them to
> >rsyslog without storing anything. Or both.
> >
> >Read http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man5/journald.conf.5.html and be
> >enlightened. ;-)
> 
> OK, it's good they've added "none" option at least... It wasn't
> there in the initial journal design document.
> 
> So, if the storage is disabled, journalctl, systemctl status and
> other systemd parts that query journal just see an empty result?
Yes.

> I.e. everything looks like you just run syslog, only messages sent
> from systemd get to it through journal, not directly?
Yes, they go through journal*d*.

> Do some messages get lost in that case, for examples the ones logged
> before rsyslog is started? Or are they forwarded to kernel log
> buffer?
Yes, they get lost.

Zbyszek


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[houmehr aghabozorgi]

+1
On Feb 11, 2014 7:09 PM, "Marco d'Itri"  wrote:

>  +---+ .:\:\:/:/:.
>  |   PLEASE DO NOT   |:.:\:\:/:/:.:
>  |  FEED THE TROLLS  |   :=.' -   - '.=:
>  |   |   '=(\ 9   9 /)='
>  |   Thank you,  |  (  (_)  )
>  |   Management  |  /`-vvv-'\
>  +---+ / \
>  |  |@@@  / /|,|\ \
>  |  |@@@ /_//  /^\  \\_\
>@x@@x@|  | |/ WW(  (   )  )WW
>\/|  |\|   __\,,\ /,,/__
> \||/ |  | |  (__Y__)
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> ==
>
> --
> ciao,
> Marco
>

Re: hacking your car

[Wookey]

+++ John Paul Adrian Glaubitz [2014-02-11 20:01 +0100]:
> On 02/11/2014 04:19 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> > On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> >> No, it's absolutely not. You can have the choice for the interior
> >> design, the paint job, the radio, the type of engine and comfort
> >> features, but you certainly cannot have the choice on internal
> >> parts like the ignition system or starter motor.

Nonsense

> >> Furthermore, if you do decide to replace these parts on your own,
> >> you will end up losing your car manufacturer's warranty.
> > 
> > The car analogy can only go so far... My point was saying that people do
> > customize things, and do it. That's a way more the case with computers
> > than with cars.
> 
> Again, you have to differentiate. People customize their cars, correct.
> 
> What they don't usually do is replacing core components like the
> starter motor, engine control circuitry, carburetor (ok, some
> do) and other parts usually opaque to the driver. And, when they
> do - because some people are crazy enough to - you will lose
> the warranty.

Anyone trying to win an argument by suggesting that changing bits of my
car is a _bad_ thing has a very cock-eyed view of the world.

I've changed all of those bits on my cars at some point, and the fact
that it was relatively simple to do was, and is, a good thing. I've
never owned a car with a warranty, and as they only come with one for
the first few years, they are not that relevant to the majority of
vehicle ownership.

Hacking is good. Replaceable parts with vaguely standard, or at least
discoverable, interfaces is also good. This is just as true in cars as it
is in computers. PLease don't try to tell us that hackability and fixability is 
bad.

I guess this difference in world wiew is why we have such a schism on the 
'I..S...' question.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:30:07PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:
> >Here's a challenge then: Implement everything the journal does, without
> >using a binary format, and show us it's not only doable, but performs
> >similarly.
> >
> >I would first recommend you read up - and try! - what the journal has to
> >offer. It's not as simple as you make it out to be.
> 
> Given that Debian transitions to systemd - it seems an option to me. )
> 
> But first I'll try to disable it completely, of course. IMHO it's
> also a suitable solution.
> 
> I understand there's more functionality than you can build up only
> using regexes. The point is - I don't understand why an INIT SYSTEM
> (!) should depend on these, generally non-trivial, features.
The "INIT SYSTEM" not not. PID 1 doesn't really care, it simply tries
to log messages to a socket (or the kernel buffer depending on settings).
If you e.g. remove the socket, or hook up something different to read
from it, system (the init itself) wil be just as happy.

It's the accompanying tools (mostly systemctl) which extracts
information from journal files to give more information to the
admin. But this is a fairly loose coupling, and if systemctl doesn't
find any (pertinent) messages, it will just not print them.

Zbyszek


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Marco d'Itri]

 +---+ .:\:\:/:/:.
 |   PLEASE DO NOT   |:.:\:\:/:/:.:   
 |  FEED THE TROLLS  |   :=.' -   - '.=:  
 |   |   '=(\ 9   9 /)='  
 |   Thank you,  |  (  (_)  ) 
 |   Management  |  /`-vvv-'\ 
 +---+ / \
 |  |@@@  / /|,|\ \   
 |  |@@@ /_//  /^\  \\_\  
   @x@@x@|  | |/ WW(  (   )  )WW  
   \/|  |\|   __\,,\ /,,/__   
\||/ |  | |  (__Y__)  
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
==

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Octavio Alvarez]

On 02/11/2014 11:46 AM, Maas Verri wrote:
> Proposal: SystemD pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.
> 
> The people, such as Adrian, who are pushing systemd as the one
> and only init system for debian should be physically harmed.

Are you aware that saying "let's physically beat systemd pushers"
has the same weight than "excuse me, but I do not agree because of
blah", or possibly even less? You're barely doing something
useful (if anything *at all*).

After comments like that, this is simple: nobody will change their
decisions (for whatever init system) after a comment of yours now
because you have just shown you are nothing but a troll and can't be
taken seriously. Most will just ignore you now.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:38:16PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:
> >>5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And
> >>it won't be really slower because of (4).
> >
> >A regexp is unreliable and slow. Lots of ssh blocking tools have had
> >various security issues due to this.
> 
> That only depends on whether you know the format of that what you
> parse. Binary log with an unknown/unstable format may also be
> unreliable.

The journal binary format is stable and extendible. IIRC similar to
ext2 (ext3, ext4).

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Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:48:07AM -0600, Matt Zagrabelny wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Matthias Urlichs  
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > vita...@yourcmc.ru:
> >> Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.
> >>
> > Why? (Seriously.)
> 
> To use standard text based tools, eg. grep.

$ journalctl | grep
$ journalctl | tail -n 500

Note: above is pretty inefficient. Much quicker to rely on the indexes
from journalctl. But it *is* possible.

e.g. efficient is:
$ journalctl -n 500
$ journalctl -f

etc

-- 
Regards,
Olav


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Olav Vitters]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 01:18:57PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 02:46:13PM -0500, Maas Verri wrote:
> > Proposal: SystemD pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.
> 
> It *should* go without saying, but I want to make it clear that as an
> upstart developer, I find this message reprehensible and absolutely
> unacceptable.  I have technical disagreements with those who support
> systemd, but that's all they are - technical disagreements.

It's just one person creating a bunch of accounts. Not to be taken
seriously.

-- 
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Olav


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Lars Wirzenius]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 02:46:13PM -0500, Maas Verri wrote:
> Proposal: SystemD pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

This is, of course, absolutely intolerable. Regardless of how strongly
you might feel about any technical issue within Debian, resorting to
threats of any kind of violence is unacceptable. In any sensible
jurisdiction it's not a question of good taste versus bad taste, or
freedom of speech versus censorship: threats of violence are
unambiguously illegal.

It is possible that "Maas Verri" is trolling, and does not intend the
threats to be taken seriously. It doesn't matter. They are just as
unacceptable.

Normally, I ignore trolls when I can, or attempt to deal with them by
getting listmasters involved, out of the public eye. Trolls crave
attention, and responding in public is giving them what they want.
However, sometimes the transgressions are too severe to be ignored,
and thus I'll climb on my soap box to declare that this is one of
those cases.

This is NOT OK. Anybody who thinks threats, or insults, or defamation,
is a good way to express their disappointment or disagreement is
wrong. They should step away from the computer until they have calmed
down enough to be courteous and constructive.

We have, in Debian, debated the question of what init system to use
for over two years now. When I describe it as a vigorous debate, I'm
attempting to use the under-statement that my current tea-loving
country of residence is famous for.

The debate has consumed a lot of time, energy, and goodwill. Emotions
are still running high, nerves are still raw and exposed, and this
means that a lot of people react more forcefully than they otherwise
would. Everyone needs to take this into account. Try hard not to annoy
others, and if you're annoyed, try hard to get past that before
responding to anyone about anything.

This is for all topics, not just the init system. It's clear to me
that we are, as a group, much more irritable about everything and less
trusting of each other than we were a year ago.

We've had the technical committee make a decision. It might still be
overturned by a General Resolution, but it's not too early to start
re-building the trust between Debian contributors. We have to trust
each other to have good intentions, even if we sometimes disagree with
each other about what are sensible goals to aim for, or the methods of
achieving the goals.

Once the decision is made, those who didn't like the chosen solution
need to deal with the fact that they lost the quarrel. Holding
grudges, keeping the fight alive, or otherwise not accepting the
decision is only making things worse. It'll make it harder to continue
to collaborate on Debian in the future. It'll make it harder to
achieve peace and emotional and mental balance. It'll make it harder
to have fun.

We, the Debian project, can't let that happen. Fun is serious business
for us: without it we can't get anything much done.

Some concrete things all of us can do to make this better:

* Stop discussing init systems. No, really. Everything's been said
  already, probably many, many times. Anything you say is likely to
  irritate or anger someone. There will be a time when init systems
  are a safe topic to discuss again, but it'll take a while.

* Go meet other Debian contributors in person, be it at Debconf 14, a
  Debian sprint, a user group, or an unrelated event where some of
  happen to be. If necessary, organise something. Have tea, beer, or
  food with them, or just chat about anything except init systems.
  Wear a t-shirt saying "I don't want to talk about Debian and init
  systems, but I'm interested in backups".

* Remember what made Debian fun for you, and do that for a while. Fix
  a bug. Upload a new version of a package. Write a missing manual
  page. Translate a web page. Design a new theme for a Debian desktop.
  Teach someone to make packages.

* Find your local Finnish community gathering and achieve a high-score
  in the https://wiki.debian.org/HugAFinn game. The person with the
  highest score between now and the time the last talk at Debconf 14
  wins.

(Some of the above suggestions are not entirely serious.)

-- 
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http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ -- GTD for hackers


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 02:46:13PM -0500, Maas Verri wrote:
> Proposal: SystemD pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

It *should* go without saying, but I want to make it clear that as an
upstart developer, I find this message reprehensible and absolutely
unacceptable.  I have technical disagreements with those who support
systemd, but that's all they are - technical disagreements.

Anyone who holds the above view is not welcome in the Debian community.  The
only reason this message, and others like it, have found their way to the
Debian mailing lists is because people who are *not* accountable to our
community, but decide they have an axe to grind, are very hard to keep out
of our mailing lists.

(And thank you to our listmasters for their ongoing efforts in this regard.)

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Can we please change the Subject: ?

[Daniel Pocock]

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On 11/02/14 21:23, Stig Sandbeck Mathisen wrote:
> Andrey Rahmatullin  writes:
> 
>> About The Thread.
> 
> The Thread That Shall Not Be Named.  (to be more precise :)
> 


Apply to the thread of your choice - unfortunately there are more than
one nonsensical enough to choose from

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Re: OpenRC

[Игорь Пашев]

The discussions on init system have discovered much energy of
developers and users,
so I think they are able to use that energy to support multiple systems :-)


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Maas Verri:
> Proposal: SystemD pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

In some (if not most) jurisdictions, this email would be enough to earn
you a stern talking-to by the local police and/or public prosecutor.

Please refrain from sending further hate mails.

Thank you.

-- 
-- Matthias Urlichs


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Re: Tired of my fellow SysV supporters

[Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)]

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Hash: SHA1

On 11/02/2014 22:45, Dominik George wrote:
> I do not know how many of them are trolls, but the content I had to read
> on this mailing list in the last days is clearly intolerable.
> 
> systemd, be it as one init system or as the only init system, will not
> make me leave Debian, but what I had to learn about parts of the
> community could easily do so.
> 
> Please, whoever cares about that, do not hesitate to remove those people
> from the project!

*hugs* and +1

Perhaps the list admins can block the topic and create a new list for
people who want to re-hash the same old details over and over and over
again until they get old, fat and bald and wonder what they've done with
their lives.

- -Jonathan
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Re: Tired of my fellow SysV supporters

[Russ Allbery]

Dominik George  writes:

> I think we all agree that the init system discussion is far away from
> what is good for the project, under any political andsocial aspect.

> I don't like systemd either, and I do not like the decision of the TC,
> but what annoys me most is the attitude of some (too many) of my fellow
> SysV supporters.

> I do not know how many of them are trolls, but the content I had to read
> on this mailing list in the last days is clearly intolerable.

> systemd, be it as one init system or as the only init system, will not
> make me leave Debian, but what I had to learn about parts of the
> community could easily do so.

Hi Dominik,

I think right now it's good to keep in mind that this discussion and
decision has drawn a great deal of media and Internet attention.  Quite a
few people are reading and following the discussion who haven't previously
been part of the Debian community.  A small handful of those people, as is
always the case when something draws a lot of Internet attention, have
decided to be angry and threatening.

If you skim through the project mailing lists at the moment, I think
you'll find that there are some fairly quiet discussions, largely among
ourselves, and some wild rants with only a few replies, almost entirely
from people whose addresses I've never seen on any project mailing list
before.  One person in particular is currently creating new throwaway
accounts at various free email providers to post violent threats and
invective-filled rants to various project mailing lists.  The best thing
to do with those is to recognize them for what they are -- an attempted
denial of service attack on project infrastructure -- and ignore them and
let the listmasters try to handle them as best we can.  Our open mailing
list discussion culture makes it moderately difficult for us to lock down
our lists entirely against someone who is willing to invest time in
creating numerous sock puppet accounts.  Some of it we just have to ride
out.

Past experience says that the disruptive messages will die down, probably
in a day or two, as the news coverage drops off and people find something
else to go rant about.  Hopefully some of those who have discovered the
Debian community through all this coverage and have been reading and
responding thoughtfully will stick around and become part of our
community.  We're here for the long haul and we have a lot more
discussions to have.  I think the best thing for us to do right now is for
people who care strongly about the init system choice to consider options
for a GR, and for everyone else to just go about our regular work on the
project and let the noise die down.

Welcome to the receiving end of Internet celebrity!  It's always kind of
unsettling.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: [Bulk] Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Kevin Chadwick]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:37:59 +0100
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

> Arch, openSUSE and Fedora are among the most popular and widely
> used Linux distributions where most of the upstream development
> happens.
> 

Show me the numbers, I completely disagree and developers from those
ditributions such as RedHat have been equally vocal against systemd.

> > and two companies shipping products that actually are embedded in a dash 

> 
> Those two are multi-billion dollar companies.
> 

With many projects where systemd couldn't even hope to be used. The
point is you are trying to make a point out of nothing.

> On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
> actively support Upstart and OpenRC.
> 

Meaningless. How many companies support development of /sbin/init?

> Don't diminish the achievements by the systemd developers when
> the competition isn't even remotely on par when it comes to
> momentum and community and company support.

I don't wish to get dragged into what has been discussed far better
many times before yet again. I have faith that those that have spoken
against systemd have shown good reasoning and understanding and the
opposite camp largely misunderstands what already exists and the depth
of usage with a few minor plus points. I also realise security benefits
are often muted and risks misunderstood.

Init scripts are here to stay no matter what happens for many
reasons, the only question is what is the best default or init just
for Debian. Which is easiest to switch to. Which default may cause bugs
and/or lend itself to upstreams making worse and less pliable software.


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Re: [Bulk] Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Kevin Chadwick]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:39:10 +0100
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

> While they loose the warranty which is my main point.
> 

Who needs a warranty when it's so straight forward. These days you have
an engine with a "management system" which you have to fix or convince
the mechanic that the "management system" is reporting the wrong thing
before he sends it to Mercedes to be fixed at 10 times the price.

Or it switches your car off when you don't want it to or dials Mercedes
to come pick your car up when you have tried to hide it, like happened
to Jeremy Clarkson.

> Yes, you can replace your init system with anything you like, but
> don't expect everyone else in Debian to actively support you.

In true systemd supporting style.

Cheers, mate


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Tired of my fellow SysV supporters

[Dominik George]

Hi there,

I think we all agree that the init system discussion is far away from
what is good for the project, under any political andsocial aspect.

I don't like systemd either, and I do not like the decision of the TC,
but what annoys me most is the attitude of some (too many) of my fellow
SysV supporters.

I do not know how many of them are trolls, but the content I had to read
on this mailing list in the last days is clearly intolerable.

systemd, be it as one init system or as the only init system, will not
make me leave Debian, but what I had to learn about parts of the
community could easily do so.

Please, whoever cares about that, do not hesitate to remove those people
from the project!

Cheers,
Nik

-- 
* concerning Mozilla code leaking assertion failures to tty without D-BUS *
 That means, D-BUS is a tool that makes software look better
than it actually is.

PGP-Fingerprint: 3C9D 54A4 7575 C026 FB17  FD26 B79A 3C16 A0C4 F296


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Re: Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 02:46:13PM -0500, Maas Verri wrote:
> The people, such as Adrian, who are pushing systemd as the one
> and only init system for debian should be physically harmed.

You are way out of line.

-- 
Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho, Jyväskylä, Finland
http://antti-juhani.kaijanaho.fi/newblog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antti-juhani/


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Re: OpenRC

[Simon McVittie]

On 11/02/14 15:19, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> Yes, that's my proposal, and as well deprecate sysv-rc in the favor of
> OpenRC, and allow OpenRC runscript files *only* if there's support for
> the default init system (because this way the default init system will
> not use them, so the runscript format is possible).

I don't plan to use OpenRC myself (my Debian 7 machines run systemd
already, and I think OpenRC is likely to be a dead-end in the long term)
but I don't intend to prevent its use either, and I'm glad people are
taking the "do the work" approach to it.

Wasn't there some plan to have OpenRC look for its "runscripts" in a
parallel directory alongside init.d as well as in init.d itself, and
treat /etc/openrc-init.d/foo (or whatever) as a replacement for
/etc/init.d/foo? Then you could just say "OpenRC runscripts go in
/etc/openrc-init.d, LSB-style init scripts[1] go in /etc/init.d" and
everything Just Works.

If you're keen on using OpenRC, I would strongly recommend that
approach. systemd ignores /etc/init.d/foo if it finds a corresponding
foo.service in its own directory, and that feature has made it easy to
add systemd units (.service files) per-package without needing much
special coordination. Upstart doesn't do that (/etc/init.d/foo has to be
patched to not do anything if it detects that init is Upstart and
/etc/init/foo.conf exists) which has given it much more complicated
Policy implications.

If LSB-style init scripts disappear completely after jessie, OpenRC
runscripts could in principle move to /etc/init.d at that point,
although I don't really see much benefit in that.

S

[1] i.e. the ones that work equally well (or equally badly, depending
on your point of view) with sysv-rc, file-rc, insserv, Upstart,
systemd, OpenRC etc.


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Re: Can we please change the Subject: ?

[Stig Sandbeck Mathisen]

Andrey Rahmatullin  writes:

> About The Thread.

The Thread That Shall Not Be Named.  (to be more precise :)

-- 
Stig Sandbeck Mathisen


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Proposal: SystemD.pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

[Maas Verri]

Proposal: SystemD pushers/forcers be physically beaten as revenge.

The people, such as Adrian, who are pushing systemd as the one
and only init system for debian should be physically harmed.

They are wresting from all of us a nice unix like OS, they
argue against choice and if they have their way the systemv
scripts will be removed, and other non-systemd inits
will not be allowed.
.
This is top-down dictatorship. This is how the systemd
people operate. Go to any of their discussions.

They say they are trying to "help debian". This is similar
to how the church in the middle ages "helped" men's souls,
by burning them alive or torturing them.

Debian exists for people, it is not a religion.
It is not a sculpture.

The systemd pushers/forcers say they are trying to
"improve debian" by forcing one choice of init on
all of us (especially Adrian). 

Debian exists not for itself, but for all of us.
Adrian and the other systemd pushers are trying
to take debian away from us and make it suitable
only for them and their "users" (ie their "citizens"
"subjects" people they rule over).

Those of us who do not want systemd, but instead
want to keep an low profile, low attack surface,
proven, reliable, resolute, simple init need
to do something if we wish to keep a unix like
option for debian linux. Since the systemders
are using the debian process to overrule
choice and freedom, some other method will
be needed to keep them from implementing their
goal of having systemd as the only init system
for debian.

I think we will have to physically attack the
exclusive systemd people.

Words do not phase them. Arguments are useless.
They dismiss everything and declare themselves
victorious. They corrupt the process and always
seek to remove choice and freedom and use 
every kind of metaphore to accomplish that.

I simply want to beable to continue to use what
I have used thus-far. I am sure many system
admins would like the same.
.
Adrian and other systemd pushers are not apt
to allow that.

They need to be physically restrained or beaten
untill they come to a different conclusion
or enter a state where they are no longer
capable of coming to any conclusions.

We owe them nothing, but they seek to own us
or remove us from debian, and linux in general.
We should fight back. In any way that is
expedient.

Bug#738676: ITP: ruby-albacore -- suite or Rake tasks for building C# projects

[Sebastian Ramacher]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Sebastian Ramacher 
Control: block 738674 by -1

* Package name: ruby-albacore
  Version : 0.3.5
  Upstream Author : Derick Bailey
* URL : http://albacorebuild.net/
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: Ruby
  Description : suite of Rake tasks for building C# projects

 Albacore provides a suite of Rake tasks intended to make building C#
 projects easier. It includes tasks to generate assembly info, build
 assemblies, run test suites and generate test coverage reports.

Regards
-- 
Sebastian Ramacher


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/11/2014 08:11 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
> I'm under the impression Americans customise almost routinely.

While they loose the warranty which is my main point.

Yes, you can replace your init system with anything you like, but
don't expect everyone else in Debian to actively support you.

Adrian

-- 
 .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' :  Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/11/2014 08:11 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
> So some distros with relatively few users out of the huge number that
> exist.

These distros which you attest of having a few users are the major
distributions out there. Novell's SLES runs on most of the top500
super computers while RHEL is largely used by many enterprises.

Arch, openSUSE and Fedora are among the most popular and widely
used Linux distributions where most of the upstream development
happens.

> and two companies shipping products that actually are embedded in a dash

Those two are multi-billion dollar companies.

On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies
actively support Upstart and OpenRC.

Don't diminish the achievements by the systemd developers when
the competition isn't even remotely on par when it comes to
momentum and community and company support.

Adrian

-- 
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: :' :  Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913


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Bug#738674: ITP: nancy - lightweight framework for building HTTP based services in C#

[Sebastian Ramacher]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Sebastian Ramacher 
Control: block 738649 by -1

* Package name: nancy
  Version : 0.22.0
  Upstream Author : Andreas Håkansson, Steven Robbins and contributors
* URL : http://nancyfx.org/
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: C#
  Description : lightweight framework for building HTTP based services in C#

 Nancy is lightweight framework for building HTTP based services in C#.
 It is designed to handle DELETE, GET, HEAD, OPTIONS, POST, PUT and
 PATCH requests and provides a domain specific language for returning a
 response with just a couple of lines of code.

Regards
-- 
Sebastian Ramacher


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Vitaliy Filippov]

You can tell it to do that, yes. You can also set it to forward them to
rsyslog without storing anything. Or both.

Read http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man5/journald.conf.5.html and be
enlightened. ;-)


OK, it's good they've added "none" option at least... It wasn't there in  
the initial journal design document.


So, if the storage is disabled, journalctl, systemctl status and other  
systemd parts that query journal just see an empty result? I.e. everything  
looks like you just run syslog, only messages sent from systemd get to it  
through journal, not directly?


Do some messages get lost in that case, for examples the ones logged  
before rsyslog is started? Or are they forwarded to kernel log buffer?


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  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Kevin Chadwick]

previously on this list John Paul Adrian Glaubitz contributed:

> systemd is used as the default init system in:
> 
> - Fedora
> - Arch Linux
> - Mageia
> - openSUSE
> - SLES (upcoming)
> - RHEL7
> - Frugalware
> - (see Wikipedia)
> 
> Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms.


So some distros with relatively few users out of the huge number that
exist.

and two companies shipping products that actually are embedded in a dash
and I'm guessing not actually embedded devices or at the very highest
end. You don't call a high powered quad arm seven server embedded, do
you?

Which is a bit like an SME having a minimum of 200 employees when 85%
of companies have four.



-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Kevin Chadwick]

previously on this list John Paul Adrian Glaubitz contributed:

> On 02/11/2014 05:20 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> >> It's like being able to customize internal parts of your cars engine
> >> when ordering one from your dealer. Customers don't care who the
> >> manufacturer of your ignition system is as long it's the best
> >> possible one. (Yes, I know comparisons with cars are bad ;)).
> > 
> > That's partly not truth. Some customers care, and do customization of
> > their car.
> 
> No, it's absolutely not. You can have the choice for the interior
> design, the paint job, the radio, the type of engine and comfort
> features, but you certainly cannot have the choice on internal
> parts like the ignition system or starter motor.

I'm under the impression Americans customise almost routinely.

I know one of my Dad's favourite features of the original mini (mini's
may be simple but they won many rallies and are still going) was that
almost anyone could take it apart completely in his garage and put it
all back together optionally replacing parts. Only the interfaces have
to match.

That was until he rolled it into a ditch and is still unable to work
out how he physically managed to scramble out of the tiny triangular
window.

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Kevin Chadwick]

previously on this list Svante Signell contributed:

> > What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's
> > decision when they are primarily using a different platform. But I
> > guess it's pure politics and trying to push their own projects.  
> 
> I'm pretty sure there are _many_ Debian users and developers among the
> people not being happy with the way things are heading :-( Make your
> voices heard!

heading? I have faith and if not I shall just switch distro with a
little more work or less convenience for offline machines but miss the
guarantee of stability and have some worries and dashed hopes for the
future of debian embedded.

-- 
___

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together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/11/2014 04:19 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> No, it's absolutely not. You can have the choice for the interior
>> design, the paint job, the radio, the type of engine and comfort
>> features, but you certainly cannot have the choice on internal
>> parts like the ignition system or starter motor.
>>
>> Furthermore, if you do decide to replace these parts on your own,
>> you will end up losing your car manufacturer's warranty.
> 
> The car analogy can only go so far... My point was saying that people do
> customize things, and do it. That's a way more the case with computers
> than with cars.

Again, you have to differentiate. People customize their cars, correct.

What they don't usually do is replacing core components like the
starter motor, engine control circuitry, carburetor (ok, some
do) and other parts usually opaque to the driver. And, when they
do - because some people are crazy enough to - you will lose
the warranty.

On the other side, to be able to get back to the analogy to
our discussion, when you buy your car, you get a limited
set of choices which usually don't allow to choose for core
components to be from a specific manufacturer. However, the
things that you can choose from are always covered by the
warranty and usually do not affect the overall generic
functionality of a car. Like choosing your favorite editor
does.

> On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> And since there are virtually no volunteers for OpenRC besides
>> you and the other two OpenRC maintainers, Roger and Benda, it
>> will be unsupported at some point when you guys step down.
> 
> That's truth for every bit of Debian, however, package gets orphaned,
> adopted, etc. Please don't through this type of argument, especially
> when we have co-maintainers already.

Correct. However, there is a huge difference whether it affects
an essential package like your init daemon or your favorite
editor. If the latter is affected by an RC bug, Britney can
kick the package out of testing without any consequences
for the rest of the system and users.

When you have an RC bug in your init daemon and no maintainer
and no one knowledgeable enough to fix the problem you really
have a problem. Thus, this risk should be kept at a minimum
which is only guaranteed when you use a software which is widely
adopted in the community and has a large group of developers
behind and not just 6.

> On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> I have seen you asking for help on OpenRC so many times during
>> these discussion, but I am yet to see people raise their hands
>> and say "Yes Thomas, I am going to help you!"
> 
> Yet, it happened. Not in this list though...

How many people where there to actually start contributing now?

> On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> All I read are statements from you like "Yes, it would work
>> in general if we had someone to implement it, I don't have
>> the time right now unfortunately."
> 
> Please read the debian/changelog of OpenRC in Experimental, and measure
> the work that has been done so far. I don't think this counts for
> nothing, and I really see progress. Hurd & kFreeBSD support, and
> lsb2rcconf comes to mind. Plus this doesn't include all what has been
> done before the package entered Debian.

This progress is still not enough - by far - to catch up with systemd.

>> It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the
>> Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu
>> only (ChromeOS doesn't really count in that context, it's a more
>> or less closed system by Google), while virtually every other
>> of the large distributions has adopted systemd.
>>
>> Using something which is not widely adopted and has very few
>> supporters in the development community means that if any of the
>> OpenRC or Upstart people will decide to retire, these systems will
>> lose much more development manpower than systemd does.
> 
> Please stop spreading useless FUD. I could do that saying: "what happens
> if both Keith and Lennart stop developing systemd", but you would
> rightly find it very silly, no?

It's not FUD, it's the truth when you compare the bare numbers:

> http://www.ohloh.net/p/openrc

Current Contributors: 17

> http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd

Current Contributors: 164

I hope you agree that 164 is a larger number than 17 and that
a larger community makes it much more unlikely for a project
to be abandoned than a small number of contributors.

Furthermore, which was initiated by Lennart as well was mostly
left behind by him, yet the project is still very much
active:

> http://www.ohloh.net/p/pulseaudio

Btw, the other guy you are talking about is called Kay Sievers, not
Keith Sievers :).

> Plus I'm replaceable, if others see enough interest in the package
> (which seems to be the case).

Define "enough"? When an init system is adopted mainly by one
distrib

Re: Can we please change the Subject: ?

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 07:50:32PM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Andreas Beckmann:
> > It's annoying to read and no longer relates to the discussion.
> > I don't think the original poster deserves this publicity.
> > 
> Your email has no old Subject:, no References: and no In-Reply-To: headers.
> 
> So … whatever or whoever you're talking about …
About The Thread.


-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: Call to fork

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/11/2014 04:18 PM, Serge Hallyn wrote:
> FWIW, disagree - I rarely set up a machine (little laptop or server or
> container) where I don't need to do one thing or another custom at boot.
> Throttle back cpus to prevent overheating, register dynamic dns,
> whatever.

All of that is possible or even easier with systemd. I don't see your
point.

Adrian

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Re: Call to fork

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 02/11/2014 04:21 PM, Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
> You're hardly an average user (and I do mean this fondly) :)

Reminds me of this, bro:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmPKDeo9Oow#t=3251

"Do you see how many people are using alternative window managers here?"

Adrian

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Re: Call to fork

[Kevin Chadwick]

previously on this list Matthias Urlichs contributed:

> For instance, a daemon which fails to start under sysvinit will
> not even prevent the services which depend on it from starting up.
> How terminally stupid is that?

Perhaps you should rethink that whilst considering the complexities. I
disagree and could easily argue doing so is stupid.

I have also done just that for services not designed to work together
within rc.local.



-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Vitaliy Filippov:
> >Guess what journald is doing ;-) And if the journal is not running in
> >persistent mode, this extra logfile only exists temporarily and
> >everything is forwarded to rsyslog, so you gat your syslog-textfile
> >(but with much more structured content)
> 
> What it's doing? Isn't it storing the log files themselves in a
> binary format?

You can tell it to do that, yes. You can also set it to forward them to
rsyslog without storing anything. Or both.

Read http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man5/journald.conf.5.html and be
enlightened. ;-)

-- 
-- Matthias Urlichs


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Re: Can we please change the Subject: ?

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Andreas Beckmann:
> It's annoying to read and no longer relates to the discussion.
> I don't think the original poster deserves this publicity.
> 
Your email has no old Subject:, no References: and no In-Reply-To: headers.

So … whatever or whoever you're talking about …

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 02/11/2014 06:04 PM, The Wanderer wrote:
> Also because when writing a parser, it's easier to determine the
> format (in terms of meaning and start/stop of each field) of a text
> file than it is of a binary one, when working without
> known-reliable documentation. (And I'm not willing to assume that
> I'll always have such documentation.)

The point is, with the journal and it's binary format, you do not need
to write a parser anymore for any daemon. All the information is logged
in a common and standardized format.

The very same code parses all your Apache log messages and all your
Exim log messages. And you can just go ahead and query the journal
about error messages conveniently like a database.

Not having to write a parser is without doubt easier than having
to write one at all.

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/11/2014 06:47 PM, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:
> And to use standard text processing tools, parsers and have a simple way
> of archiving logs, yeah.

It's not simple if you have to write a script for every single service
whose log messages you want to parse.

The journal already gives you an out-of-the-box working solution. There
is no need to use any external tools. And, again, if you want to
continue to use syslog, you still can.

> http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/759/both.png

:)

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/11/2014 06:30 PM, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:
> I understand there's more functionality than you can build up only using
> regexes. The point is - I don't understand why an INIT SYSTEM (!)
> should depend on these, generally non-trivial, features.

Because the tasks of init and syslog are very closely tied together.
Init is responsible for starting all processes and managing them
while syslog is responsible for logging all process activity.

And since the init daemon is the parent of every other process
running on your system, it can - with the help of cgroups - track
every single activity of every process and thus has lots of
information that syslog has never any access to on its own.

systemd knows which process has which PID and when it was started
and with the help of the journal, it's very easy to find this
information. systemd virtually sets itself in front of all
standard communication channels of a process and tracks
what's going on. systemd knows exactly which log messages belong
to which process and can pass all this information to the
journal. It is able to prioritize log messages and have
this information accessible through the journal.

With syslog, you just have all processes using the log randomly
write into a large log file in a non-standardized format where
as systemd enforces a format and therefore allows you to easily
find what you are looking for.

If you want to know, what Apache errors occurred during the last
week, you issue one specific journalctl command and get the
information you need within the blink of an eye.

With syslog, you have to open your syslog file and start grepping
around hoping you remember the correct error strings you have
to be looking for to find any errors within the past week.

So, while the journal introduces a binary format and makes
logging part of PID1, it actually gives you a very powerful tool
at hand which allows you to get any information about the
state about any services and processes on your machine at a
glance. And this is what matters to most users, not the fact
whether it's part of PID1 or not.

And, as it has been reiterated several times, if you still want
a classic syslog, you can simply install and use it. There is
nothing in systemd that will keep you from doing so.

Adrian

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Bug#738665: ITP: python-pysam -- interface for the SAM/BAM sequence alignment and mapping format

[Andreas Tille]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Andreas Tille 

* Package name: python-pysam
  Version : 0.7.5
  Upstream Author : Heng Li 
* URL : http://code.google.com/p/pysam/
* License : MIT
  Programming Lang: C, Python
  Description : interface for the SAM/BAM sequence alignment and mapping 
format
 Pysam is a Python module for reading and manipulating Samfiles. It's a
 lightweight wrapper of the samtools C-API.

This package is maintained by the Debian Med team at

   git://anonscm.debian.org/debian-med/python-pysam.git


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Gergely Nagy]

The Wanderer  writes:

> Also because when writing a parser, it's easier to determine the format
> (in terms of meaning and start/stop of each field) of a text file than
> it is of a binary one, when working without known-reliable
> documentation. (And I'm not willing to assume that I'll always have such
> documentation.)

Stop right there. You're so very wrong there, you cannot even imagine.
Without documentation, you cannot assume *anything* about neither text
nor binary. If you think you do, think again, you will be wrong.

> There's a *reason* the vast majority of kernel userspace-interface files
> are in plain-text form, after all.

Interface? Yes. You give textual commands to journalctl, and it gives
you text output back. Same way you echo something into files under /sys,
or cat them, and something behind it *translates* that. The only
difference is that journalctl is a user-space program, while the files
under /sys are translated by the kernel.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Vitaliy Filippov]

Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.


Why? (Seriously.)


Because I count the wide use of transparent plaintext formats everywhere -  
in logs, configs and shell commands is one of the biggest advantages of  
Linux/Unix systems.


And to use standard text processing tools, parsers and have a simple way  
of archiving logs, yeah.


--
With best regards,
  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Gergely Nagy]

"Vitaliy Filippov"  writes:

>> Here's a challenge then: Implement everything the journal does, without
>> using a binary format, and show us it's not only doable, but performs
>> similarly.
>>
>> I would first recommend you read up - and try! - what the journal has to
>> offer. It's not as simple as you make it out to be.
>
> Given that Debian transitions to systemd - it seems an option to me. )
>
> But first I'll try to disable it completely, of course. IMHO it's also
> a suitable solution.
>
> I understand there's more functionality than you can build up only
> using regexes. The point is - I don't understand why an INIT SYSTEM
> (!) should depend on these, generally non-trivial, features.

I suggest you read the rationale behind the Journal, in particular the
design docs:
 
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUEHIX3MSTs

(But, if you have comments about it, please take it upstream or keep it
to yourself, in all honesty. We've been over this and other aspects of
systemd many times.)
 
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Russ Allbery]

The Wanderer  writes:

> In my case: because I want to be able to read them conveniently at a
> glance, without requiring the presence of a functioning specialized tool
> for doing so. As the UNIX Philosophy puts it, "text streams ... [are] a
> universal interface".

All the folks who are upset about the journal are aware, I hope, that, as
configured in the current systemd packages in Debian at least (I haven't
tried a generic upstream install), all journal messages are forwarded
directly to syslog, right?  All the text files that you are looking for
still exist in the same form they always have.

The journal serves as a mechanism for routing some things into syslog that
wouldn't otherwise go there (such as stderr output from daemons) and as a
data store for some nice but entirely optional systemd debugging features,
such as "show me all the output logged from this particular daemon but not
any of the others."  It doesn't replace syslog.

I am in wholehearted agreement with the people who want all their log
messages to go into syslog so that they can be processed, routed, and so
forth just as they are today.  I, and I suspect many others who like
systemd, would be quite unhappy if that didn't happen.

-- 
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Vitaliy Filippov]

5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And
it won't be really slower because of (4).


A regexp is unreliable and slow. Lots of ssh blocking tools have had
various security issues due to this.


That only depends on whether you know the format of that what you parse.  
Binary log with an unknown/unstable format may also be unreliable.


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  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Vitaliy Filippov]

Guess what journald is doing ;-) And if the journal is not running in
persistent mode, this extra logfile only exists temporarily and
everything is forwarded to rsyslog, so you gat your syslog-textfile
(but with much more structured content)


What it's doing? Isn't it storing the log files themselves in a binary  
format?


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  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Vitaliy Filippov]

Here's a challenge then: Implement everything the journal does, without
using a binary format, and show us it's not only doable, but performs
similarly.

I would first recommend you read up - and try! - what the journal has to
offer. It's not as simple as you make it out to be.


Given that Debian transitions to systemd - it seems an option to me. )

But first I'll try to disable it completely, of course. IMHO it's also a  
suitable solution.


I understand there's more functionality than you can build up only using  
regexes. The point is - I don't understand why an INIT SYSTEM (!)  
should depend on these, generally non-trivial, features.


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  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

> On Feb 11, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Thomas Goirand  wrote:
> 
>> On 02/11/2014 08:13 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> Yes, but we are not talking about hypothetical things. I am also not
>> planning my life for the case that I am winning the lottery tomorrow.
> 
> Chances to win the lottery are 1 against 14 000 000 (at least in my
> country). Claiming this kind of odds for supporting OpenRC is IMO an
> overstatement, especially considering that we have LSB header scripts
> for *all* of our packages right now.

That was not my point. I was not talking about the functionality. I don't have 
any doubts that OpenRC is doing what it was designed for already.

However, I do not think that the current feature set of OpenRC is enough to 
justify preferring it over systemd and, now coming back to my lottery metapher, 
I do not think that it is very likely that OpenRC is going to be able to catch 
up any time soon.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other maintainers are 
working on. But I think that it's not leading anywhere.

The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability but that doesn't 
justify to waive for important systemd features that users need in a productive 
environment.

People need resource management and process isolation, process tracking, CPU 
affinity settings, consistent and easily searchable logs, reliable daemon 
startup and dependencies without having to resort to "sleep".

systemd actually solves lots of real world problems that everyone who gets a 
salary for administrating a large Linux server setup has heard of before.

Arguing that portability to Hurd or BSD is more important than reliability and 
robustness in a productive environment is just crazy, sorry!

Adrian

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matt Zagrabelny]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Matthias Urlichs  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> vita...@yourcmc.ru:
>> Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.
>>
> Why? (Seriously.)

To use standard text based tools, eg. grep.

-mz


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[The Wanderer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/11/2014 11:26 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> vita...@yourcmc.ru:
> 
>> Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.
> 
> Why? (Seriously.)

In my case: because I want to be able to read them conveniently at a
glance, without requiring the presence of a functioning specialized tool
for doing so. As the UNIX Philosophy puts it, "text streams ... [are] a
universal interface".

Also because when writing a parser, it's easier to determine the format
(in terms of meaning and start/stop of each field) of a text file than
it is of a binary one, when working without known-reliable
documentation. (And I'm not willing to assume that I'll always have such
documentation.)

There's a *reason* the vast majority of kernel userspace-interface files
are in plain-text form, after all.

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Can we please change the Subject: ?

[Andreas Beckmann]

It's annoying to read and no longer relates to the discussion.
I don't think the original poster deserves this publicity.

Thanks

Andreas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Ansgar Burchardt]

On 02/11/2014 17:03, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:
>> Try to find an efficient way to show the output of a particular daemon.
>> Now of a cgroup. Now anything of a user. It's not about capturing, it is
>> about doing something useful with it. You want to capture various
>> properties with each message.
> 
> No problem: one regexp, one more regexp, one more regexp.

http://xkcd.com/1171/

Ansgar


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Gergely Nagy]

vita...@yourcmc.ru writes:

>> It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their
>> life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of
>> writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun
>> programming
>> them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing.
>>
>> The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How
>> silly of them all.
>
> 1) If you really need a binary index, it could be initially put in a
> separate file.
> 2) Binary index isn't needed at all if you just want to print output
> of a service - you can just put output of each unit to its own log
> file and just tail it.
> 3) If you don't want to print only last X lines, but want to print
> full output of a service since last start - you can remember the
> previous log position in the service state structure.
> 4) At a first glance I don't see any _real_ index (i.e. btree)
> implementation in systemd journal, so I assume it still does fullscans
> to print logs for a service - am I correct?
> 5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And it
> won't be really slower because of (4).

Here's a challenge then: Implement everything the journal does, without
using a binary format, and show us it's not only doable, but performs
similarly.

I would first recommend you read up - and try! - what the journal has to
offer. It's not as simple as you make it out to be.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

vita...@yourcmc.ru:
> Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.
> 
Why? (Seriously.)

-- 
-- Matthias Urlichs


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matthias Klumpp]

2014-02-11 17:03 GMT+01:00  :
>[...]
> And if I _really_ needed a binary index, I would put it in a separate file.
Guess what journald is doing ;-) And if the journal is not running in
persistent mode, this extra logfile only exists temporarily and
everything is forwarded to rsyslog, so you gat your syslog-textfile
(but with much more structured content)
First try the software, then complain. Complaining about something you
never tried and/or don't know about doesn't make any sense.
Cheers,
Matthias

-- 
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I welcome VSRE emails. See http://vsre.info/


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 07:57:18PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:
> 2) Binary index isn't needed at all if you just want to print output
> of a service - you can just put output of each unit to its own log
> file and just tail it.

Now show everything of a particular user. Systemd allows you to do this
quickly (barring some performance bugs).

> 3) If you don't want to print only last X lines, but want to print
> full output of a service since last start - you can remember the
> previous log position in the service state structure.

Then you also need to handle logrotate. 

> 4) At a first glance I don't see any _real_ index (i.e. btree)
> implementation in systemd journal, so I assume it still does
> fullscans to print logs for a service - am I correct?

You're not.

> 5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And
> it won't be really slower because of (4).

A regexp is unreliable and slow. Lots of ssh blocking tools have had
various security issues due to this.

-- 
Regards,
Olav


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Re: Call to fork

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Florian Lohoff:
> My estimation is that 99% of the users dont care - sysvinit is
> sufficient and works. 0.5% think they need this little tiny bit
> of feature which only upstart can give them, 0.5% think they need
> a feature only systemd can give them.

(a) please tell us which feature is only available with upstart.

(b) if those 99% don't care, then they'll be equally happy with systemd.

(c) I for one don't just "think I need" a couple of systemd features.

For instance, a daemon which fails to start under sysvinit will
not even prevent the services which depend on it from starting up.
How terminally stupid is that?

We've lived with the faults of sysvinit long enough.

I can't help but think that some people have grown so accustomed to all these
niggly little (or not so little) problems that they feel lost without them...

-- 
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Bug#738659: ITP: soundscaperenderer -- tool for real-time spatial audio reproduction

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: IOhannes m zmoelnig 

* Package name: soundscaperenderer
  Version : 0.4.1
  Upstream Author : Matthias Geier, Jens Ahrens et al.
* URL : http://spatialaudio.net/ssr/
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: C++
  Description : tool for real-time spatial audio reproduction

 The SoundScape Renderer (SSR) is a tool for real-time spatial audio
 reproduction providing a variety of rendering algorithms, e.g. Wave Field
 Synthesis, Higher-Order Ambisonics and binaural techniques.
 .
 It is possible to interact with a soundscape (moving sound sources, adjusting
 levels) either via a graphical user interface or via network commands.

this software is targeted at spatial audio research (which happens to be my
field of work) and provides a uniform interface to multiple spatialization
techniques. it's probably comparable to OpenAL, but differs in the methodology
(soundscaperenderer is a (collection of) application(s), OpenAL is a library)
and the target audience (SSR can be used for concert reproduction, whereas
OpenAL is more game orientend)-
I would like to do the packaging under the pkg-multimedia-team umbrella (if
somebody there is interested :-))


fgmasdr
IOhannes


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Clint Byrum]

Excerpts from Josselin Mouette's message of 2014-02-11 07:00:43 -0800:
> Le mardi 11 février 2014 à 18:30 +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru a écrit : 
> > And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the 
> > stderr capture.
> 
> It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their
> life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of
> writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun programming
> them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing.
> 
> The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How
> silly of them all.
> 

And how silly of all other tool makers to create full text binary search
indexes from text logs, giving simplicity with efficiency at the same
time. The real heroes got rid of that scourge, the text logs.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[vitalif]

Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.


Install syslog. Or maybe Debian will use both journal and syslog.


I dislike the idea of binary logs so much that I want to really and 
totally disable journal.



And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the
stderr capture.


Try to find an efficient way to show the output of a particular daemon.
Now of a cgroup. Now anything of a user. It's not about capturing, it 
is

about doing something useful with it. You want to capture various
properties with each message.


No problem: one regexp, one more regexp, one more regexp.

And if I _really_ needed a binary index, I would put it in a separate 
file.



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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Thomas Goirand]

On 02/11/2014 07:23 PM, Olav Vitters wrote:
> IMO (and I'm an interested part / GNOME dude, so no say): blocking
> progress is bad. So if someone wants to add OpenRC scripts to packages
> and maintenance is low: as packager you should be allowing that to
> happen. As long as the time required on packagers part is minimal. Only
> by not blocking progress things can move to working nicely. But that
> also means that it really falls under the task of people interested in
> something different to make such change happen. At the moment there is
> too much "blocking progress" going on IMO

Yes, I agree with what's above.

On 02/11/2014 08:13 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> Yes, but we are not talking about hypothetical things. I am also not
> planning my life for the case that I am winning the lottery tomorrow.

Chances to win the lottery are 1 against 14 000 000 (at least in my
country). Claiming this kind of odds for supporting OpenRC is IMO an
overstatement, especially considering that we have LSB header scripts
for *all* of our packages right now.

Cheers,

Thomas


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[vitalif]

It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their
life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of
writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun 
programming

them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing.

The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How
silly of them all.


1) If you really need a binary index, it could be initially put in a 
separate file.
2) Binary index isn't needed at all if you just want to print output of 
a service - you can just put output of each unit to its own log file and 
just tail it.
3) If you don't want to print only last X lines, but want to print full 
output of a service since last start - you can remember the previous log 
position in the service state structure.
4) At a first glance I don't see any _real_ index (i.e. btree) 
implementation in systemd journal, so I assume it still does fullscans 
to print logs for a service - am I correct?
5) After all, I don't see why writing 1 regexp is a hard task. And it 
won't be really slower because of (4).


DBMS is an incorrect example because DBMS is originally _meant_ to store 
and query structured data in different formats.


--
With best regards,
  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Thomas Goirand]

On 02/11/2014 04:31 PM, Clint Byrum wrote:
> One point of moving to a system like upstart or systemd is that the
> sysvinit scripts do not run as scripts. They are little tiny declarative
> files that run all or most in C. This speeds up boot, but only makes
> sense if all of the early stage boot things make use of it.
> 
> Leaving most things to just use the sysvinit compatibility layer means
> not realizing one of the more important benefits of the default init
> system if it should in fact turn out to be systemd.

I agree with the above.

> So at best you're talking about maintaining two for every daemon. That
> is still roughly twice the maintenance work and twice the testing.

Yes, that's my proposal, and as well deprecate sysv-rc in the favor of
OpenRC, and allow OpenRC runscript files *only* if there's support for
the default init system (because this way the default init system will
not use them, so the runscript format is possible). Yes, testing and
maintenance will be double the amount of work, which is why I wrote that
it will all depend on contributions. I didn't write support for it would
be mandatory, but on best effort basis, which I think is fair. Also,
that will enable support for our non-linux ports.

> Not saying I like it, but that is where choice hurts Debian. Perhaps
> having the choice will also help Debian enough to make it worthwhile.

That's what I believe, yes.

On 02/11/2014 05:03 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> According to Russ Allbery, it's easier to maintain both systemd and
> upstart declarations than one sysv init script.

s/sysv init/sysv-rc/ <--- Please don't do this mistake, it's really
sysv-rc that uses the init scripts, and OpenRC, which has a declarative
format, still uses sysvinit.

Anyway, to some degree, I agree with Russ here, which is why I think we
should replace sysv-rc by OpenRC completely at some point (which is when
we have stabilized support for *all* arch, which isn't the case right
now, latest Hurd patches broke support for kFreeBSD).

On 02/11/2014 05:31 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> On 02/11/2014 09:02 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
>> The situation with upstart or systemd, if not chosen as default,
>> will be quite different, since not all packages are supporting them
>> directly right now. One of these 2 will suffer from the choice of
>> default init system.
>
> What? That's not true. As people have explained here before - even
> directly to you - both Upstart and systemd have perfect backwards
> compatibility with sysvinit scripts.

You missed one very important word: *directly*. Probably I should have
write *natively*. Sorry for this.

On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> No, it's absolutely not. You can have the choice for the interior
> design, the paint job, the radio, the type of engine and comfort
> features, but you certainly cannot have the choice on internal
> parts like the ignition system or starter motor.
>
> Furthermore, if you do decide to replace these parts on your own,
> you will end up losing your car manufacturer's warranty.

The car analogy can only go so far... My point was saying that people do
customize things, and do it. That's a way more the case with computers
than with cars.

On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> And since there are virtually no volunteers for OpenRC besides
> you and the other two OpenRC maintainers, Roger and Benda, it
> will be unsupported at some point when you guys step down.

That's truth for every bit of Debian, however, package gets orphaned,
adopted, etc. Please don't through this type of argument, especially
when we have co-maintainers already.

On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> I have seen you asking for help on OpenRC so many times during
> these discussion, but I am yet to see people raise their hands
> and say "Yes Thomas, I am going to help you!"

Yet, it happened. Not in this list though...

On 02/11/2014 05:27 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> All I read are statements from you like "Yes, it would work
> in general if we had someone to implement it, I don't have
> the time right now unfortunately."

Please read the debian/changelog of OpenRC in Experimental, and measure
the work that has been done so far. I don't think this counts for
nothing, and I really see progress. Hurd & kFreeBSD support, and
lsb2rcconf comes to mind. Plus this doesn't include all what has been
done before the package entered Debian.

> It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the
> Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu
> only (ChromeOS doesn't really count in that context, it's a more
> or less closed system by Google), while virtually every other
> of the large distributions has adopted systemd.
>
> Using something which is not widely adopted and has very few
> supporters in the development community means that if any of the
> OpenRC or Upstart people will decide to retire, these systems will
>

Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:51:33PM +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
> Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting better 
> functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very bad 
> bug!

As mentioned before: File a bug.

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Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:30:24PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:
> Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.

Install syslog. Or maybe Debian will use both journal and syslog.

> And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the
> stderr capture.

Try to find an efficient way to show the output of a particular daemon.
Now of a cgroup. Now anything of a user. It's not about capturing, it is
about doing something useful with it. You want to capture various
properties with each message.

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Olav


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Re: Call to fork

[Serge Hallyn]

Quoting Paul Tagliamonte (paul...@debian.org):
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> > I am telling you that by all the technical discussions which of
> > the systems is superior over the other you forget about your users.
> 
> Our users shouldn't care what init system we use. It's an
> implementation -- and purely technical -- detail of the OS.

FWIW, disagree - I rarely set up a machine (little laptop or server or
container) where I don't need to do one thing or another custom at boot.
Throttle back cpus to prevent overheating, register dynamic dns,
whatever.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:05:48AM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
> I think this touches on - or possibly misses - a key point.

I don't think so.

> I do not trust the systemd project to not do things I consider bad or
> even insane, because they've already done such things, and they show no
> regret or repentance over having done so.

You're talking about yourself and none of what you say contains
specifics. What bad and insane things have systemd done? It seems to be
that you're ignoring that they attend almost every conference out there,
discuss everything up front and hold loads and loads of presentations
where they specifically ask for feedback.

Saying "I do not trust": I think you have a level of expectation for
systemd that is at a completely different level than any other project.

> I've seen the same thing with the Mozilla project.
> 
> I've seen the same thing with Microsoft.
> 
> I believe all of those groups are acting in good faith, working towards
> what they see as good goals, with good intentions, and I trust them to
> continue to do that; based on the evidence of history, I no longer trust
> that the result of that work will be - or, if it once is, will continue
> to be - something *I* would consider good.

You are not specific. Systemd is GPL. You can fork it, you can change
it, there is no CLA.

What do you mean?!? There are no specifics at all in most of the
objections. Only a bunch of "I don't like it", while if you look at it
objectively, it seems that the bar is different for systemd than it is
for something such as coreutils.

> As such, advice to "not be distrustful" seems to me to be lacking an
> essential foundation.

You're turning things around. I'm being specific and giving examples.
Your answer is: "but I don't trust them". Ok, whatever, I concluded that
already.
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Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2014-02-11 at 15:47 +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

> What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's
> decision when they are primarily using a different platform. But I
> guess it's pure politics and trying to push their own projects.

I'm pretty sure there are _many_ Debian users and developers among the
people not being happy with the way things are heading :-( Make your
voices heard!



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Re: Call to fork

[Paul Tagliamonte]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:18:48AM -0600, Serge Hallyn wrote:
> FWIW, disagree - I rarely set up a machine (little laptop or server or
> container) where I don't need to do one thing or another custom at boot.
> Throttle back cpus to prevent overheating, register dynamic dns,
> whatever.

You're hardly an average user (and I do mean this fondly) :)

Cheers,
  Paul

-- 
:wq


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

> On Feb 11, 2014, at 3:06 PM, Oleg  wrote:
> 
>  What? I see many people who don't like systemd and won't use it. I don't
> see that systemd is the choice of the _majority_. But i see that systemd
> funs simply shout louder than others.

systemd is used as the default init system in:

- Fedora
- Arch Linux
- Mageia
- openSUSE
- SLES (upcoming)
- RHEL7
- Frugalware
- (see Wikipedia)

Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms.

The reason why you perceive the systemd opponents as being the majority than 
the supporters lies in the fact that the former are more vocal.

It's also usually comes from people who are running or affiliated with Gentoo 
or Ubuntu. The rest of the community already made up their minds.

What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision when 
they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure politics 
and trying to push their own projects.

Adrian

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Bug#738649: ITP: omnisharp-server -- HTTP server allowing C# editor plugins to be written in any language

[Sebastian Ramacher]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Sebastian Ramacher 

* Package name: omnisharp-server
  Version : 0~git20140211
  Upstream Author : Jason Imison
* URL : https://github.com/nosami/OmniSharpServer
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: C#
  Description : HTTP server allowing C# editor plugins to be written in any 
language

OmniSharpServer provides an HTTP wrapper around NRefactory. It acts as
server component for the OmniSharp vim plugin [1] which adds (among
other features) code completion, rename refactoring, find usage, code
formatting for C# projects. A more recent version of YouCompleteMe
(packages as vim-youcompleteme) uses OmniSharpServer to provide code
completion for C#.

(I'll write a better long description once I'm more familiar with
OmniSharpServer.)

Regards

[1] https://github.com/nosami/Omnisharp
-- 
Sebastian Ramacher


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Josselin Mouette]

Le mardi 11 février 2014 à 18:30 +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru a écrit : 
> And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the 
> stderr capture.

It is of course well-known that systemd developers like to make their
life more complicated and love to implement binary formats instead of
writing simple text parsers, just for the sake of having fun programming
them, and absolutely not because they need things like indexing.

The same goes for relational databases developers, for example. How
silly of them all.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Olav Vitters]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 06:06:39PM +0400, Oleg wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> > It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the
> > Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu
> 
>   What? I see many people who don't like systemd and won't use it. I don't
> see that systemd is the choice of the _majority_. But i see that systemd
> funs simply shout louder than others.

There are various technical reasons to choose systemd. Various
developers have chosen for this. It is not something you can gloss over
like e.g. the colour of a bikeshed. There are technical reasons behind
why projects are relying on the additional value it provides.

It's quite sad to be summarized as someone who "simply shouts louder". :-(

Shouting is not how logind (optional) dependency was decided upon!

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Olav


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Salvo Tomaselli]

Well if a bug can be solved by killing the buggy process and getting better 
functionality than when the process is running is certainly a very very bad 
bug!


> Don't be daft. My audio works perfectly. So does lots of other people's.
> 
> If yours doesn't, file a bug.

-- 

Salvo Tomaselli

"Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di
senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
-- Galileo Galilei

http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/


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Re: Call to fork

[Paul Tagliamonte]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 07:02:19PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:
> >Our users shouldn't care what init system we use. It's an
> >implementation -- and purely technical -- detail of the OS.
> 
> Sorry to interfere with your discussion, but it really sounds like
> some kind of proprietary software idea :)

How so? systemd is free software and it complies with the DFSG. People
are *able* to change it, we're only discussing defaults.

> I'm sure a big percent of GNU/Linux (and especially Debian
> GNU/Linux) users like to know and understand what's going under the
> hood. Debian users are certainly not "average PC users". :)

Yeah, we're only discussing defaults - users can still change things
(which I mention at the end of my email)

> -- 
> With best regards,
>   Vitaliy Filippov

Cheers,
  Paul

-- 
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`. `'`  http://people.debian.org/~paultag
 `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt


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Re: Call to fork

[Federico Di Gregorio]

On 11/02/2014 15:39, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:06:46AM -0500, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> Thanks for sharing this.
>> So, you're frustrated and very disappointed because Ddebian, something
>> you cared about deeply has drifted so far away from what you want that
>> you can no longer support it?
>>
>> I hope that if you decide to fork, you succeed in creating something
>> that meets your needs.  I hope that where appropriate we (both the
>> Debian community and the broader FLOSS community)  can work together
>> where appropriate.
>>
>> Again, thanks for being open and sharing how this is affecting you.
> 
> I think i made my point that forking will not help the issue. 
> 
> I am telling you that by all the technical discussions which of
> the systems is superior over the other you forget about your users.
> 
> My estimation is that 99% of the users dont care - sysvinit is
^^

> sufficient and works. 0.5% think they need this little tiny bit
> of feature which only upstart can give them, 0.5% think they need
> a feature only systemd can give them.
> 
> By following either of the 0.5% "majority" you piss off
 
> 50% because their beloved sysvinit which has been doing
  ^^

They don't care but sysvinit is beloved to them? Oximoron alert!

federico

-- 
Federico Di Gregorio federico.digrego...@dndg.it
Di Nunzio & Di Gregorio srl   http://dndg.it
  The reverse side also has a reverse side.  -- Japanese proverb



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Re: Call to fork

[vitalif]

Our users shouldn't care what init system we use. It's an
implementation -- and purely technical -- detail of the OS.


Sorry to interfere with your discussion, but it really sounds like some 
kind of proprietary software idea :)


I'm sure a big percent of GNU/Linux (and especially Debian GNU/Linux) 
users like to know and understand what's going under the hood. Debian 
users are certainly not "average PC users". :)


--
With best regards,
  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Call to fork

[Paul Tagliamonte]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> I am telling you that by all the technical discussions which of
> the systems is superior over the other you forget about your users.

Our users shouldn't care what init system we use. It's an
implementation -- and purely technical -- detail of the OS.

> My estimation is that 99% of the users dont care - sysvinit is
> sufficient and works.

You're right they don't care, but I don't think it's sufficient or that
it works as a long-term solution. Bringing in a correct / modern init
system is vital.

Not just for the speedup at startup (which, for the record, matters a
lot to users, which sysvinit can't quite manage, also, systemd is only
fast because it's correct, not because it was designed to be fast)

> 0.5% think they need this little tiny bit
> of feature which only upstart can give them, 0.5% think they need
> a feature only systemd can give them.
> 
> By following either of the 0.5% "majority" you piss off
> 50% because their beloved sysvinit which has been doing
> what it should for decades is gone.

These numbers seem off to me. Can I see the poll that was conducted?

> And i think i made the point that the voice who said "fork debian"
> is just telling you in their way that Debian has lost another supporter.

We've managed when we've lost users over other technical decisions, but
they've been worth it in the past, and we net gain users due to the
technical win in the core of the OS.

> Debian - The Universal operating system whose priority are their users?

I don't understand the question.

> The systemd issue has gone out of proportion by far - Its a technical
> issue which is getting debated over a lot.

Technically, it's a no-contest between sysvinit and systemd. As for
systemd vs upstart vs openrc, that's open to debate. Each of those init
systems outclass sysvinit straight.

> But i think the systemd
> proponents have made a much broader issue from it which is now about
> trust, choice, and taste. You cant win here.

If you don't trust Debian, don't use it.
If you don't like the choice, change it.
If you don't like the taste, add salt.

> Flo
> PS: I talking about Debian as "you" because i dont feel beeing part
> of Debian anymore.
> -- 
> Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de

Cheers,
  Paul

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[vitalif]

Because it's work, for no apparent gain. I mean, the systemd people 
didn't
just code up all that journal stuff for no good reason, but because 
they
perceived a need to have it. And let's face it, the ability to just see 
the
stderr output from $FAILED_JOB with "systemctl status" is a whole damn 
lot
better than to restart the thing in the foreground and hope to be able 
to

reproduce the problem that caused it to die.

You can split off systemd-journal and its supporting files into a 
separate
binary package. That'd probably be quite simple. The question is, why 
would

you even want to ..?


Because I want logs to be plaintext in my system, not binary.

And I don't see why a binary log format is needed to implement the 
stderr capture.


--
With best regards,
  Vitaliy Filippov


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Re: Call to fork

[Florian Lohoff]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:06:46AM -0500, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Thanks for sharing this.
> So, you're frustrated and very disappointed because Ddebian, something
> you cared about deeply has drifted so far away from what you want that
> you can no longer support it?
> 
> I hope that if you decide to fork, you succeed in creating something
> that meets your needs.  I hope that where appropriate we (both the
> Debian community and the broader FLOSS community)  can work together
> where appropriate.
> 
> Again, thanks for being open and sharing how this is affecting you.

I think i made my point that forking will not help the issue. 

I am telling you that by all the technical discussions which of
the systems is superior over the other you forget about your users.

My estimation is that 99% of the users dont care - sysvinit is
sufficient and works. 0.5% think they need this little tiny bit
of feature which only upstart can give them, 0.5% think they need
a feature only systemd can give them.

By following either of the 0.5% "majority" you piss off
50% because their beloved sysvinit which has been doing
what it should for decades is gone.

And i think i made the point that the voice who said "fork debian"
is just telling you in their way that Debian has lost another supporter.


Debian - The Universal operating system whose priority are their users?


The systemd issue has gone out of proportion by far - Its a technical
issue which is getting debated over a lot. But i think the systemd
proponents have made a much broader issue from it which is now about
trust, choice, and taste. You cant win here.


Flo
PS: I talking about Debian as "you" because i dont feel beeing part
of Debian anymore.
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Oleg]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
> It's not *my* choice, systemd is the choice of the majority of the
> Linux community. OpenRC and upstart are used in Gentoo and Ubuntu

  What? I see many people who don't like systemd and won't use it. I don't
see that systemd is the choice of the _majority_. But i see that systemd
funs simply shout louder than others.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[The Wanderer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/11/2014 04:21 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:51:13PM +0400, Vitaliy Filippov wrote:

>> This can also reduce the risk of "vendor-lock", because the speed
>> Lennart adds features to systemd is so fast that I won't be really
>> surprised if he adds HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE and HKEY_CURRENT_USER next.
>> And everyone will be forced to use that new feature [registry] if
>> Debian project won't have any influence on systemd. That's what I
>> call vendor-lock :)
> 
> Features are discussed beforehand at loads of conferences. I think
> resorting to "Windows registry" to make a point says enough. The
> project is under active development, that's is a good thing. If you
> have needs, make them known. Be positive, not distrustful and you'll
> go a long way.

I think this touches on - or possibly misses - a key point.

I do not trust the systemd project to not do things I consider bad or
even insane, because they've already done such things, and they show no
regret or repentance over having done so.

I've seen the same thing with the Mozilla project.

I've seen the same thing with Microsoft.

I believe all of those groups are acting in good faith, working towards
what they see as good goals, with good intentions, and I trust them to
continue to do that; based on the evidence of history, I no longer trust
that the result of that work will be - or, if it once is, will continue
to be - something *I* would consider good.

As such, advice to "not be distrustful" seems to me to be lacking an
essential foundation.

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: Call to fork

[Sam Hartman]

Thanks for sharing this.
So, you're frustrated and very disappointed because Ddebian, something
you cared about deeply has drifted so far away from what you want that
you can no longer support it?

I hope that if you decide to fork, you succeed in creating something
that meets your needs.  I hope that where appropriate we (both the
Debian community and the broader FLOSS community)  can work together
where appropriate.

Again, thanks for being open and sharing how this is affecting you.


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

Salvo Tomaselli:
> 
> > You can restart pulse. No big problem except temporary interrupt of audio,
> You mean a temporary presence of audio that will immediately go away as soon 
> as pulse is running again right?
> 
Don't be daft. My audio works perfectly. So does lots of other people's.

If yours doesn't, file a bug.

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Matthias Urlichs]

Hi,

vita...@yourcmc.ru:
> And it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like it! And I'm sure
> that at least 50% of swear words addressed to systemd could be
> stopped at once if the journal was made ALSO optional. So why not
> just do it?...
> 
Because it's work, for no apparent gain. I mean, the systemd people didn't
just code up all that journal stuff for no good reason, but because they
perceived a need to have it. And let's face it, the ability to just see the
stderr output from $FAILED_JOB with "systemctl status" is a whole damn lot
better than to restart the thing in the foreground and hope to be able to
reproduce the problem that caused it to die.

You can split off systemd-journal and its supporting files into a separate
binary package. That'd probably be quite simple. The question is, why would
you even want to ..?

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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[Salvo Tomaselli]

> You can restart pulse. No big problem except temporary interrupt of audio,
You mean a temporary presence of audio that will immediately go away as soon 
as pulse is running again right?


-- 

Salvo Tomaselli

"Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di
senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
-- Galileo Galilei

http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/


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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 02/11/2014 12:23 PM, Olav Vitters wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:27:04AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> And this is very much what I would see in Debian. Use your desktop
>> and applications of choice and you will get support, but if you
>> want to change core components, you are free to do so, but you
>> will lose support.
> 
>  [ Below all not directed to John, just additional comments ]

The name's Adrian :).

> If suddenly OpenRC (or whatever) gets loads and loads of contributors,
> gets lots of init scripts, solves/provides an logind alternative and
> does whatever to improve then it should be supported. However, the
> support should come from the OpenRC team / interested people. You cannot
> assign :-P

Yes, but we are not talking about hypothetical things. I am also not
planning my life for the case that I am winning the lottery tomorrow.

The current situation is that OpenRC has little adoption and a very
small development team while systemd is quite the opposite on both
terms. And this is an important fact you cannot ignore.

> IMO (and I'm an interested part / GNOME dude, so no say): blocking
> progress is bad. So if someone wants to add OpenRC scripts to packages
> and maintenance is low: as packager you should be allowing that to
> happen. As long as the time required on packagers part is minimal. Only
> by not blocking progress things can move to working nicely. But that
> also means that it really falls under the task of people interested in
> something different to make such change happen. At the moment there is
> too much "blocking progress" going on IMO (but then against anything
> other than sysvinit).

I agree. In any case, the OpenRC supporters should understand that their
system isn't high priority just as the m68k port isn't high priority
meaning "I am not going to block you from doing your own thing, but
don't expect me to invest lots of time and efforts into it."

Adrian

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`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
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Re: Call to fork

[Didier 'OdyX' Raboud]

Le mardi, 11 février 2014, 11.12:24 Florian Lohoff a écrit :
> Debian is not as useful as it was a couple years back. I started with
> debian because of m68k and later contributed the first mips and mipsel
> packages and hosted the first buildds for mips and mipsel.

Cool, thanks!

> Debian has lost me since - The discussion about dropping and factual
> dropping of architectures - the Gnome3 stuff which is/was far from
> production quality (e.g. #698340, #698781), brokeness in debian
> installer (#712879) and now the systemd stuff.
> 
> Stuff which used to work gets broken and nobody cares.

I'd rather say that it's because _you_ don't care enough. You know, we 
don't drop architectures because it's cool or because it makes any of us 
happy, only because there's globally not enough manpower to make them 
sustainable on sufficiently long terms, as well as releasable as part of 
our stable releases. More architectures would certainly be in jessie if 
there were enough people standing behind each port, making sure that the 
latest gcc works, that the kernels don't suddenly segfault or panic, etc 
etc. The same goes for Gnome3: some things could get fixed given enough 
involvement. Some upstream choices will probably not be reverted, but 
could otherwise be implemented differently. The MATE Desktop Environment 
is making its way into Debian, because enough people wanting that to 
happen, jumped in the boat and made sure it would. Wishing that things 
should happen doesn't make them become reality; it needs real work from 
people.

You know, we're all volunteers here, why don't you join us and fix (or 
help fix) the things that are broken for you?

Cheers,
OdyX

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Re: dpkg-dev: please reject native/non-native version when building native/non-native source packages

[Thorsten Glaser]

Wookey  wookware.org> writes:

> Do I understand this correctly - that it prevents a package 
> cross-binutils-0.1 to generate binaries called
> binutils-arm-linux-gnueabi-2.24-3
> binutils-arm-linux-gnueabihf-2.24-3

Actually, these packages will be buggy usually: debhelper uses
the source version number to decide whether to install the Debian
changelog as native (changelog.gz) or nōn-native (changelog.Debian.gz)
file, which makes lintian complain.

I’ve got a source package to “build” multiple Firefox® binary packages
(which are, really, just the Mozilla™ builds with nssckbi.so symlinked
to the system-wide one) locally, on which running lintian points out
this problem. I’m not sure whether there are other subtle differences
between native and nōn-native packages like this, but they’ll be buggy.
(I’ll probably just convert the source package to 3.0 with multiple
orig tarballs some day, but that did not exist back when it was initially
needed at $workplace.)

So, be careful.

bye,
//mirabilos


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