Re: hacking your car
On 02/12/2014 01:26 AM, Wookey wrote: > Anyone trying to win an argument by suggesting that changing bits of my > car is a _bad_ thing has a very cock-eyed view of the world. Ever heard of the German TUEV? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_%C3%9Cberwachungsverein They will show you who is cock-eyed and, trust me, it's certainly not them or me. Driving a car with arbitrary modifications is illegal in most countries. You are NOT allowed to replace anything you want and that for a reason - safety. > I've changed all of those bits on my cars at some point, and the fact > that it was relatively simple to do was, and is, a good thing. I've > never owned a car with a warranty, and as they only come with one for > the first few years, they are not that relevant to the majority of > vehicle ownership. I was not talking about replacing spare parts but replacing them with new parts. And believe me, I have been diassembling and reparing things for 25 years of my life now :). > Hacking is good. Replaceable parts with vaguely standard, or at least > discoverable, interfaces is also good. This is just as true in cars as it > is in computers. PLease don't try to tell us that hackability and fixability > is bad. No one is keeping you from hacking. You are free to do whatever you want. The point is simply that the ability to hack Debian should not make the life of package maintainers and average end users more difficult. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fac202.8060...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: hacking your car
On 02/12/2014 02:21 AM, Russ Allbery wrote: > I agree wholeheartedly with Wookey on this. If systemd were actually some > sort of closed black box, I would not want to run it on my systems. > > (a poem) Seriously, Russ, you should be a writer or a politician *. You're a wizard with words. I enjoyed reading that :). Cheers! Adrian * = alternatively, the CEO of that fruit company from Cupertino -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52facfc7.5040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: OpenRC
On 02/11/2014 09:53 PM, Игорь Пашев wrote: > The discussions on init system have discovered much energy of > developers and users, > so I think they are able to use that energy to support multiple systems :-) No, please don't. I'd rather have other DDs use this energy and help me (and paultag) go over mentors to support people getting their new packages into Debian or adopting orphaned ones. Mentors is way too often neglected in my opinion. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb46fe.1040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]
On 02/12/2014 12:26 PM, Oleg wrote: > I do my job. And i have no enough time to do a job of others. This is a > strange logic: if something goes wrong, we must throw our work and do a work > of others. But you obviously have enough time to join this discussion and ask questions that have been answered at least several dozen times. -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb5be7.8060...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 11:28 AM, Oleg wrote: > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:47:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: >> systemd is used as the default init system in: >> >> - Fedora >> - Arch Linux >> - Mageia >> - openSUSE >> - SLES (upcoming) >> - RHEL7 >> - Frugalware >> - (see Wikipedia) > > And what is this prove? That a small part of a distro dev team choose to use > a systemd? Where are votes of all distro users? Those are among the most important distributions which attract most users and developers. So, it does prove that systemd has already a large market share. >> Plus companies like Intel and BMW are using it in their embedded platforms. > > Plus many other companies that doesn't use it. And how embedded platforms > belong > to desktops and servers? The point is that multi-billion dollar companies invest money into the development of systemd and therefore support and push it which will mean everyone else who uses it profits from that. >> What I don't get is why are those people trying to push Debian's decision >> when they are primarily using a different platform. But I guess it's pure >> politics and trying to push their own projects. > > I'm using debian and i don't want to use systemd in any form (with gnome3, > etc). That's ok, you don't have to use it. Yet, we have chosen it to be the default and you should accept that. Thanks! Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb59d3.60...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 11:33 AM, Oleg wrote: > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 08:37:59PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: >> On the other hand, what companies and distributions and companies >> actively support Upstart and OpenRC. > > Is this important? Yes, it is. Large market share means large interest of developers means steady and fast progress. > Or our way is to make init such a complex, that it > can be supported only by companies? No. You are turning my argument upside down. > If you want company support use RedHat. If you want to use sysvinit, don't use Debian. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb5a6f.60...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 11:53 AM, Oleg wrote: > Why do i need an unneeded layer for this - journalctl? We have discussed this over and over again and there is tons of documentation and discussions explaining the reasoning behind that. Please do your homework yourself and stop asking the same questions over and over again. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb5af1.1010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: its developers and its users. [was: something from util-linux]
On 02/12/2014 12:59 PM, Svante Signell wrote: > And you seem to have infinite amount of time defending systemd, please > do some work as Debian Developer too (your hundreds of replies are > annoying)! > http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=glaubitz%40physik.fu-berlin.de Ranked 4th: > http://udd.debian.org/sponsorstats.cgi So, I guess I am doing "some" work :). Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb6d07.90...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
Hi!
On 02/12/2014 01:04 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 02/12/2014 03:01 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> Why not stop here with OpenRC and call it day?
>> You cannot always win in life :).
>
> Short version:
>
> Why don't you just call it a day, and let me work on what I wish? What
> is your problem with me working on it???
My problem is your attitude. I don't have any problems to let you work
on what you want, as I said before, I appreciate your work. However,
I have a problem with how you reacted when it was clear that your
favored system would not be chosen as default. All kinds of accusations
against members of the TC ("OpenRC was not considered at all") and
being huffy like a little child that didn't get what he wanted [1].
My statement about letting go was about you accepting that the TC
has made up their minds, nothing else.
> Longer version:
>
> Part of why I work on OpenRC is because I find it fun, when I'm tired of
> doing the OpenStack packaging (which is maybe 75% made of very
> repetitive Python module packaging) and need recreation with my
> computer. And doing so, I believe it's producing something useful, and
> which seems to gather some interest (which is very hard to evaluate how
> much), which is enough to motivate me.
Good. At least you're being honest now. It's your hobby.
> That you don't believe in the technology is a well established point,
> and we all got it. Nobody needs another occurrence of this. And the fact
> that you don't find this work useful will not change *ANYTHING* to this
> Adrian. Even with all what you wrote, you didn't succeed in destroying
> the fun I have hacking OpenRC.
Then why on earth are you reiterating your points over and over again
and acted like that when you didn't get what you want? Just accept
it and move on. No one keeps you from hacking on OpenRC and I *never*
said you should stop doing that, as I said in a previous mail, I
appreciate your work.
> This is the first instance I see in Debian of someone trying to convince
> another person to *not* work on something. Please give up trying to
> convince me not to do what I do, I'm a grown up, and I can decide for
> myself.
I was *NOT* trying you to convince you to stop working on something,
you are putting words into my mouth that I never said. I said, you
should stop trying to push your opinion about what should be the
default init system when the committee has already made it's decision.
And now, I'm out of this discussion, the decision has been made and
I have been threatened with violence - twice.
Happy OpenRC hacking (no, don't mean this sarcastically!)
Adrian
> [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html
--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
`. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
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Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 01:49 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: > On 02/12/2014 01:27 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: >> Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate what you and the other >> maintainers are working on. But I think that it's not leading >> anywhere. > > That's entirely your view, and it's fine if you have it. Though *we got > your point* Adrian, no need to insist more. It's perfectly fine if we do > not agree. Dude, it was you who has been constantly posting on that topic, not me. Look at the debian-ctte archives. You're - again - behaving as if you're somewhat more important than I am. Don't be so derogative and arrogant, it's utterly annoying. Especially when you say WE as if you're talking for everyone else. If you ask me to shut up about this discussion, then you yourself should do it as well. Don't be such an hypocrite. >> The only advantage I have with OpenRC is its portability > > IMO, it's not, though I believe it is useless to discuss it with you. > This very sentence is the proof of that. Please, Thomas, just stop discussing this topic and I will do so as well. Please, for the sake of peace, ACCEPT that the TC has made their choice and the choice was NOT OpenRC. And don't take this as the message to stop working on what you like, but as the message that the TC has made a decision and you should stop questioning it. We seriously need to move on! Again, I don't want to discuss this anymore. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb77b4@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
On 02/12/2014 03:35 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: > To sum up what Adrian wrote, according to him, I'm: > - derogative > - arrogant > - utterly annoying > - hypocrite > - and finally, I wasn't honest before > > Well done... ! Anything else? Telling me to shut up and using sentences like "we get it" while you keep the right for yourself to continue arguing is derogative, arrogant and hypocrite, yes. > Adrian, your insults aren't welcome in this list. Again, are you the listmaster or DPL or what? You continue to behave that way, yet you claim those are insults. You know that you did this before and you apologized to me in private. If you like, I can post this mail to the public list. You said the exact same things before and I have heard other Debian Developers who think the same way about you. Your problem is that you can't accept defeat. Again, just read your own post: > https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/01/msg00340.html Also, please count how often you posted to debian-ctte and how often I posted to debian-ctte. That's why you're being hypocrite. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb8ce1.7050...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#727708: [DONE] Fsck SystemD and its developers and its users. GR to override this please.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 02/12/2014 04:07 PM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > Thomas, John: could you please move your personal argument > off-list? I already said I wanted to stop posting and asked Thomas to do the same. I don't want to discuss this anymore since the TC has come an conclusion. I would like to continue with my sponsoring work now. Adrian - -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJS+5QXAAoJEHQmOzf1tfkTVTkP/ROry6U9JgJHwWyQakG7Eskx 8M776lYsB9vDyGHNKmaCnJlz3598us4ceuo5HCFjfOU1rjRgaiGW2nv4O8XbMWWO V9EGXIaE1Gz6+zw6kXoa8bwHH06tJtCPyS+Jh97Co8lqoAR/RRm+ihCRIZZ8lHvy otRwIQXDYGbJnpXKxlcxIVFEKJfgS56cU3AJPg2fJdM5C2UnvlKW8CRGCSSClZZk KvUuBQBVDb/fVLBL1XvTwkMFlYRTgYxdWBzhuQQsf8/db40XBkDbB1X9sq8oECya 9ipU9yjTQghJwTyZm0OKrfk5jPQuNK+Ou+pjWv7V2aIWDFlw+9qZ3/UeQc7Xcphp q355yB0pDoX+33q1dSF6Tr3ZIHibHrote9kC+9/3s+pRDdSPXF5bmxahAk0D605v UGTICsMKNrVx1gxMWnsDfCM2/H+U5bdrrhxG7j7Xj7uAgDdzWBtwUkCV6n5MOIUU atMkJmdzP7hlrmUpMfxfapD/3P4/KxSRTHgbUjGvaC4jG89vqfRJrmyplNJRe/as v6jEklYy8bhcmhVJso8UodLOVOG0j7eOsHKC6n23adJFjGk7uIpu4e3ZCqAnj0GP Wfx6LBUFUKmV+o9UCmZ7K+uyHIb5nQCvTw3MdUKiBKe0ZBN2i6epDnRBjOwIkCv4 Qm8D55c/5afs/HXKoMsQ =2Wuh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fb9417.9000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: systemd2init PoC
On 02/14/2014 12:01 PM, Ondřej Surý wrote: > I have hacked together a PoC systemd2init shell script on top of > augeas-tools (you need at least jessie version) to autogenerate sysv-rc > script out of simple service file. Cool! Thanks for hacking this together. I'd guess this could be very helpful during the transition. There has been a similar project during a Debian GSoC project, have you looked into that as well? > https://github.com/akhilvij/systemd-to-sysvinit-converter Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fe0d2a.4090...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Honestly, f__k systemd and f__k lennart, and f__k the fans of them. Where's linus in all of this?
On 02/14/2014 07:59 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: > That IS twisting things in true pro systemd style. That's not twisting, he is just asking for something proof such claims, nothing more. > It would seem wrong (again this is > before I've found time in looking at the details of the members > reasoning) to outright consider 4 for systemd against 4 for the others > as a decision in favour of systemd? The TC acted in compliance with the Policy, so there is nothing wrong with the result. I don't understand why you are questioning it. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fe6fb3.6050...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/15/2014 09:22 AM, Christian PERRIER wrote: > So, before doing so: will that be helpful? I think most people simply don't configure PulseAudio correctly. They have the assumption that sound cards are still simple devices with one input jack and one output jack and any application using it just has to find the sound card and output its audio signal. It's not as simple as that anymore. Modern audio codecs have tons of options and volume controls, and - from my experience - most problems to PulseAudio relate to the sound card being incorrectly configured. To resolve this problem, people then try to use tools like alsamixer and naturally, since alsamixer doesn't know anything about PulseAudio, it cannot fully configure it. So, in order to be able to properly configure PulseAudio, install "pavucontrol" or use the sound preferences in GNOME3 or MATE (with the package mate-media-pulse being installed). Then run pavucontrol or the MATE/GNOME sound preferences and make sure that: * the proper sound card has been selected (it might be set to HDMI audio if your graphics card has HDMI) * the proper sound output/input you want to use is selected and not muted * the sound card is set to Analog Duplex Stereo When using MATE, make sure you are actually the PulseAudio control panel, not the old ALSA-type one, those are not the same. There are some pitfalls when using PulseAudio and expecting it to behave exactly like plain ALSA. PulseAudio provides much more features and possible configuration settings, so one has to be sure to get these right. I also highly recommend asking in the #pulse-audio channel on FreeNode (if I remember that that was the proper name of the channel). Those people are awesome and it usually takes a few minutes and you have your problem resolved. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/15/2014 08:42 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: > If any configuration is required, that is a bug in pulseaudio. According to that logic, half of the software in Debian is broken. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/15/2014 08:59 PM, Russ Allbery wrote: > Steve Langasek writes: >> On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 09:58:05AM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: > >>> I think most people simply don't configure PulseAudio correctly. They >>> have the assumption that sound cards are still simple devices with one >>> input jack and one output jack and any application using it just has to >>> find the sound card and output its audio signal. > >> If any configuration is required, that is a bug in pulseaudio. > > I'll agree with that. Audio really should just work unless the hardware > configuration is particularly strange. So, if your computer has several sounds cards - which is the case when you have both a sound card and HDMI audio - how is PulseAudio supposed to know which sound card to use? This is in no way different to plain ALSA. FWIW, sound works in 99% of the cases right after a fresh install. Problems like the one described by Christian usually occur on systems which have been undergone several configuration changes and upgrades, i.e. old systems. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52ffc896.9030...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/15/2014 09:23 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: > Whenever someone says "I installed pulseaudio and my sound stopped working", > the right answer is *not* "here are some tools that let you reconfigure > pulseaudio". The right answer is "let's figure out how to fix pulseaudio so > that this doesn't happen". The problem is that many people who complain about PulseAudio issues are often prejudiced about it in the first place such that they aren't actually interested in having the problem fixed but rather just want to get rid of it and uninstall it. Trying to debug the problem in such cases is very difficult. > And to the extent that Debian users are unhappy with pulseaudio as a > default, it's because others have been trying to blame the user for the > problems instead of constructively engaging to *fix* pulseaudio. I think the reservations are mutual. If your attention as a user is "I'm too lazy to take a second to look into how PulseAudio actually works and what box I have to check.", you can't expect us on the other side to be happy to help as well. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/15/2014 10:12 PM, Salvo Tomaselli wrote: > In data sabato 15 febbraio 2014 21:52:24, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz ha > scritto: > >> The problem is that many people who complain about PulseAudio issues >> are often prejudiced about it > Well I am now biased against pulseaudio. But let's look at the facts: it > comes > by default, in the last 3 desktop machines that I've installed, it prevented > any audio to be heard. Meh, I don't want to start another flame war. It works fine for me and for all users (~1000) at my Physics Department where we deploy Debian Wheezy with PulseAudio enabled with people using all kinds of desktops and window managers. The times when it didn't work were before Wheezy. >> actually interested in having the problem fixed but rather just want >> to get rid of it and uninstall it. Trying to debug the problem in such >> cases is very difficult. > > Reporting bugs doesn't really help very much > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=702884 Well, Anton couldn't reproduce the bug, so you probably didn't provide enough information. Again, from my experience with over 1000 users and around 200 machines running Wheezy with all kinds of desktop environments and window managers, it works. And most of our users are by no means computer experts. But again, I don't want to argue. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/16/2014 12:39 AM, Salvo Tomaselli wrote: > Hm.. Please let me copy and paste some passages from that bug-report: > > I said: "If you are willing to help, I am willing to cooperate and send you > configuration and details about my system." > > To which I got this answer: "No, thanks. See my previous answer." (I think > referring to the fact that he isn't an expert). Well, I'm sorry but I would have probably reacted the same. You were not reporting a bug, you were just ranting. Did you really expect to get a reasonable reply to that? > So I just went on with my life without pulseaudio. What else was I supposed > to > do? How about writing a proper bug report without being so hostile? >> Finally, if you set out with a hostile tone, don't be surprised if you get >> less than exemplary communication back. > That is true. Keep in mind that the email was written after I had installed > an > IM client, and then after a while my media player had stopped working, and > that had taken me a few hours to pinpoint. Not the most obvious correlation > to > find. That might be an explanation but still not an excuse, sorry. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/16/2014 01:05 PM, Alessio Treglia wrote: > On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:50 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz > wrote: >> Well, I'm sorry but I would have probably reacted the same. You were not >> reporting a bug, you were just ranting. > > If you are willing to help, I am willing to cooperate and > send you configuration and details about my system. > > It is perhaps a matter of sensitivity, definitely it does not sound as > "ranting" to me though. Sorry, but no. Re-read his bug report, he was incredibly impolite. Again, I would have reacted the same way. You reap what you sow. I happened to watch a FOSDEM talk on exactly that matter yesterday, I highly recommend it for anyone who participates in open source communities [1]. Adrian > [1] http://video.fosdem.org/2014/Janson/Saturday/Software_Archaeology_for_Beginners.webm -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5300c33b.5080...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/17/2014 08:37 AM, Chow Loong Jin wrote: > It might just be that DDs/"computer experts" just have more customized setups > that break in interesting ways when effort isn't spent porting the > configuration > changes to a new system. What follows is "$new_thing sucks because $feature in > $old_thing that I customized half a decade ago and forgot about doesn't work. > If > I, a DD/'computer expert' can't get it working, how could it ever be suitable > for a layman?" Exactly what I have been thinking all the time. And I find the argument "all DDs are computer experts, so if they can't get it working it must be broken" a particularly bad one. Just because someone is a computer expert doesn't mean they automatically understand how each peace of new software works. And people who are advanced with computers usually tend to follow their own old pattern when trying to fix problems instead of being open to new methods. Thus, chances are they are trying to fix a problem the wrong way. As an example, most users who use systemd probably still restart services using "/etc/init.d/ restart", just because it works. It's also noteworthy that complains about PulseAudio usually come from advanced users. I haven't heard my mom complain about sound problems on her netbook running Ubuntu, for example. > (Speaking from my own personal experience here, with a 6-year-old Ubuntu > installation upgraded ~12 times with ~3 botched upgrades, and an even older > $HOME). > >> I'm also convinced that it should be possible to have a working default >> pulse setup. Emitting sound on all available sound output by default, >> and making sure that the level isn't zero upon install, seems like a >> sensible thing to do. > > Ubuntu appears to get it right. I haven't seen a fresh Ubuntu installation > that > had broken sound for a very long time now. Exactly my second argument. If Pulse-Audio was actually broken as it is often described, Launchpad's bugtracker would be full of complaints, is it? Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/17/2014 08:44 AM, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > ]] John Paul Adrian Glaubitz > >> So, if your computer has several sounds cards - which is the case when >> you have both a sound card and HDMI audio - how is PulseAudio supposed >> to know which sound card to use? This is in no way different to plain >> ALSA. > > Use all of them. Most of them most likely aren't connected to anything, > so sending a signal there is harmless. I don't know whether this is a good idea. What if I want to listen to something over my headphones which I don't others want to hear and I know about this "feature". I expect the sound to be over headphones only, yet it's blasting over the internal speakers as well and everyone in the room can hear me as well. >> FWIW, sound works in 99% of the cases right after a fresh install. > > Please provide the data you base this claim on, from a statistically > significant sample of Debian installations. No problem. Will do it later today when I have some time. I'll collect the default desktop, the amount of users and the number of machines and the amount of support requests regarding audio if that's ok. >> Problems like the one described by Christian usually occur on systems >> which have been undergone several configuration changes and upgrades, >> i.e. old systems. > > If the configuration you get from install + upgrade is different than > just installing a newer version, that's a bug. Well. You can't blame PulseAudio if you have an .asoundrc in your home directory which configures your sound card incorrectly. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5301c230.1080...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: IA64 removal from unstable and experimental
On 02/17/2014 12:50 PM, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: > And ia64 is now gone from unstable and experimental since last Saturday. And isn't it going to become a port like all the other dropped architectures? Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5301fe03.6050...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/17/2014 01:37 PM, Norbert Preining wrote: > Why can you not simply say something like: "Well yes, there seem > to be some problems and we will try to fix them if we can get hold > of enough input. You DDs should be able to provide decent information > to help track the problems down." Then why on earth aren't those people who are affected providing some more information? This is exactly what I was talking about: If your solution is unstalling an affected package, then you're obviously not interested in fixing it in the first place. If you want me to help you with your problem, you need to provide something I can work on. Just claiming it doesn't work isn't helping in this situation, I don't have a crystal ball I can consult in this case. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/53020785.4060...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/17/2014 02:03 PM, Wookey wrote: > No it wasn't. He explicitly said 'I'll spare you my rants', and _didn't_ > put in a big rant about how PA is a PITA. Yes it had some 'tone' due to > be filed just after being very annoyed by some problem. Sometimes that > happens. As a maintiner you have to look past that. The very next > message said 'I'll provide details if someone will help debug'. That > should have been taken at face value, and then this bug might have > actually helped solve the problem. Did you read Anton's reply at all [1]? He said, he isn't the original maintainer of the package, but he just looked at the bug because it was tagged as RC during the Wheezy freeze. In fact, I talked with the current maintainer of PulseAudio yesterday and he said he could need some help. Anton could not reproduce the bug, hence he lowered the severity to prevent this bug to be a show stopper for the release. I do not see anything wrong with that. Adrian > [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/02/msg00779.html -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/53020c5d.5070...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/17/2014 03:47 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: > Your tendency to rewrite things that I write in a wrong way is annoying. You wrote: = However, the fact that multiple DDs, which I do consider all as computer experts, failed to have a working setup, can only lead to the conclusion that there's something wrong which has to be fixed, especially if it comes by default with Debian. If DDs can't go around the issues and just feel that it's not worth spending more time, imagine with someone that isn't a computer expert... = I wrote: = Exactly what I have been thinking all the time. And I find the argument "all DDs are computer experts, so if they can't get it working it must be broken" a particularly bad one. = I don't see how I am rewriting things in a wrong way. Do you want to argue about the exact meaning of "broken" now? Now, since this isn't really leading anywhere, could we maybe focus on how we could help Sjoerd with the PulseAudio packaging? I found a new contributor on Mentors who is willing to join the packaging team and we can help by doing reviews or providing bug reports/patches. There is a new version of pavucontrol on Mentors which I (or Sjoerd) are going to sponsor. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/530224a8.8030...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/17/2014 05:25 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 02/17/2014 11:03 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>> I don't see how I am rewriting things in a wrong way. Do you want to
>> argue about the exact meaning of "broken" now?
>
> Indeed, words are important. For me, when I read "broken" it means bugs
> upstream, and I'm convince the problem is configuration, which is a
> completely different thing.
Ok, just take it with a grain of salt next time. You know what I wanted
to express which is that just because someone is a DD, they do not
automatically know the solution to every problem.
In any case, since you mentioned that you have an .asoundrc in your
$HOME, it might be noteworthy to add what people using PulseAudio
should have in this file:
pcm.pulse {
type pulse
}
pcm.!default {
type pulse
}
ctl.!default {
type pulse
}
This basically tells ALSA applications - which don't know anything
about PA - to use the PulseAudio-ALSA backend. Thus, such applications
think they use an ALSA device when, in fact, they use PulseAudio.
These show up as ALSA in the "Applications" tab in the PA sound
preferences during playback.
It might be sensible to add a global asound.conf in /etc/ to resolve
this issue for every ALSA-only application.
Adrian
--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
`. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
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Re: systemd's journal
On 02/18/2014 10:03 AM, Helmut Grohne wrote: > Thanks. Unlike tools like xz, just installing systemd does have > side-effects on the system. These are usually considered bugs and > quickly ironed out, but I believe some are still present in the wheezy > package and I am thus reluctant to install wheezy's systemd on a > production system. This problem will solve itself over time. Yeah, no one said that. systemd for Wheezy is out of the question, I don't understand why you even need to bring that up. Even upstream clearly says you shouldn't be using such an old version. > The other argument I saw in the discussion was "journalctl is just a > tool like xz, go and install it". It's not. There is xz-utils on > kfreebsd-amd64, but there is no systemd there (sorry for reiterating > this one). So? In what situation is it impossible for you to get your hands on a Linux live medium? Are you trying to construct a situation where you are stranded on a lonely island with your Linux installation broken and all you have is a live medium with Debian/kFreeBSD? The package zfsutils isn't available on Linux either [1], so I guess you won't be able to repair your corrupted ZFS filesystem with a Linux live medium in such a situation. I don't understand such arguments, those are strawman arguments in my opinion. Adrian > [1] https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/zfsutils -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5303302f.2070...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/18/2014 11:51 AM, Andrew Shadura wrote: > The only time I has somehow working PulseAudio was when I installed > Ubuntu on a computer I was going to sell. However, it had some > extremely weird behaviour: music did play only as long as I was on the > same virtual console as the X server — as soon as I switched to vt1, > sound disappeared. To me, it's an obvious misfeature, which doesn't > exist when I'm using just ALSA and nothing more. That works here just fine, just tested it while listening to music on Youtube. You really must be doing something completely wrong when you are having so much trouble with Pulse Audio. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/53033e1d.20...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/18/2014 12:13 PM, Salvo Tomaselli wrote: > In data martedì 18 febbraio 2014 12.03.57, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz ha > scritto: >> That works here just fine, just tested it while listening to music >> on Youtube. You really must be doing something completely wrong >> when you are having so much trouble with Pulse Audio. > A certain number of users seem to be having troubles with pulseaudio, yet you > keep insisting that it's just their fault and that since you can't reproduce > (have you even tried?) then the problem doesn't exist. If you were really interested in fixing the problem, you wouldn't be here posting on debian-devel but instead doing some experiments and research to pinpoint the problem and writing a detailed and useful bug report. Complaining on debian-devel doesn't do anything. I always take the time to do fresh installations and run tests in order to provide some more data instead of just "it doesn't work". You seem to forget all the time that we are all volunteers and thus if you want to have a problem fixed, you need to invest something as well. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/53034e4a.4000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/21/2014 09:29 AM, Mario Lang wrote: > I am sorry, both are not an option for me, since alsamixer is a ncurses > program, and pavucontrol apparently requires $DISPLAY to be set. > > I guess that explains why the accessibility community has > problems with PA. What's wrong with the accessibility mechanisms provided in GNOME (screen reader, magnifier)? (Serious question). I had the impression that accessibility works rather well in GNOME and upstream actually puts efforts into making that happen. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/53072324.1090...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: default init on non-Linux platforms
On 02/21/2014 04:20 AM, hero...@gentoo.org wrote: > OpenRC needs a proper directory structure in /run/openrc to track the > status of services. It is handled by init.sh and friends, you may need > to hack that. So, OpenRC actually also relies on files - like System V Init - to track the state of a service? Isn't that approach somewhat unreliable and hacky? Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/53072a4c.7090...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/21/2014 11:38 AM, Jean-Christophe Dubacq wrote: > Not the same accessibility. And the screen reader will not work if PA > does not work. > This is quite difficult to debug remotely; if the user cannot describe > the output of > commands, then we are doomed. Doesn't this perfectly apply to ALSA as well? Having to rely on using a screen reader when trying to debug problems with your sound card sounds like a chicken-and-egg question to me. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/53072f62.4000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 02/21/2014 11:56 AM, Paul Gevers wrote: > I think the point of Mario is that people like him don't have a DE, > but work from console. I haven't checked, but apparently > pavucontrol needs an X-session to show itself. Of course ALSA has > the same problem that if you don't hear it you can't change it, but > at least it doesn't require an DE just to change your sound > settings (to get it to work). There are a couple of command line utilities to control Pulse Audio in the package "pulseaudio-utils". But I haven't used it that much to be able to assess whether it provides the features Mario needs. Cheers, Adrian - -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTBzT2AAoJEHQmOzf1tfkTSCcP+wapy+OdUjO4kXp9tKv1cU01 VsUJV5V5QsouuL52mHaExtwQtYf87Vc3guWqKmbm5I5gOz42RQqo6ctMkz/hvMt2 TXwkqF5q65pPE7NFO9galY8xF6EngxegxHJT8SZuc3r8hLn2XMPgnw+J217inOXl 87UKz201Wrvu6ImPX80ha8JB5TzAyl5SqYsO5ESG2qwhdv7Wlf/nxrePItZRt6DX Jgy3qNHQpqHFLYyE67fQBfHQpbQtmSjDTmg0Y1DalkwUryTLimfoQylyKOmfIOEE H8AhpVeg1oKavGJipYBpaWnolKdNn9OkvZIii4PLHG/cNZMqz1w6wLb1CNeXGnct g0mNMPVBSEXduvTiE5RqrVGkVWuDbESfXl+FTYX4W2u6jUxmrIz6KyLAVhc89RS9 crDNCiYoFxYDr8CrfbMaCHyZn3H0AHWiozktggQsg5i5W2gxDeAIDGhmF3QQQeNF ruUitwkDKlGTkQerLtY/HZKFThNAeYx0WkCqIeQQkLQMvV7+kfeVCMcq8lYo6CFk hHDcai6QciSOaSRWtCJm5VTgIXJQ3Jf2OIQ0zhI/c3b66bfvfMshbxBRzH3LLYgf jdEpCFtnpRErrc59ylHBBd07Gcrkpz3V0ls/JXyQolduYgr3RtehOy9kovyJrk/G GZSeeDm9HzWH7om+IGD8 =bZQ7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/530734f6.10...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: default init on non-Linux platforms
On 02/21/2014 01:00 PM, hero...@gentoo.org wrote: >> So, OpenRC actually also relies on files - like System V Init - to >> track the state of a service? Isn't that approach somewhat unreliable >> and hacky? > > I bet you are going to tell me the only reliable and non-hacky way to > track the state of a service is not forking/writing to files but > starting it foreground by a long-living daemon. I agree with you. Well, I was thinking about something like CGroups. I don't like the idea of having to rely on files for an init system to be able to track the processes it has started. I agree and understand that this was the way to go back in the old days, but we shouldn't be using that on current setups. At my department, we stumbled right over this design when the /var filesystem was full and System V Init could no longer create PID files to be able to track services, yet it started services without complaining. Since we had to restart our dhcpd several days on a particular day, System V Init was unable to track whether the daemon was already running and we ended up with several dozen instances. Sure, it's probably a bug in the init script used as it didn't check for enough disk space and wasn't failing when the disk is full. But again, this is a core component depending on external scripts being bug free which is not the correct approach when you are aiming for something robust. > OpenRC leverages cgroups when available. We are also working on a plugin > framework for external supervisors such as djbtools, runit and s6 (maybe > launchd, smf, systemd, ... as well if they're hackable) to do this > foreground status tracking while integrated with OpenRC: We are not > there yet though. Can external supervisors like djbtools or runit actually reliably track processes and if, yes, how? From my understanding, it's impossible to be able to really track a process once it has started when you don't have the possibility to use something like CGroups as services could always just double-fork. The tracking has to be done through a mechanism provided by the kernel, doesn't it? And grepping through the output of "ps" or similar is not what I would consider reliable and robust either. > These advanced features are optional. We can still use the unreliable > and hacky way of trakcing files when the task is trivial, like a > personal VPS or laptop which do not care much about running sshd/httpd > for 3 years non-stop. Sure, I fully agree. But there are actually many enterprises who need something with 99% service availability. Our department runs a webserver, a login node for 1200 users and a large compute clusters with over 200 nodes and an SGI UV1000 (1024 CPUs, 2 TiB), so we need something which is able to control resources and track processes. Many enterprises and websites run Debian. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5307451b.1010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: pulseaudio related problems....
On 02/21/2014 03:28 PM, Mario Lang wrote: > No, you have summarized it pretty neatly. > I just don't consider an X11 program a true alternative to a ncurses tool. Did you give pulseaudio-utils a try then? They don't require X. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5307680a.2080...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: default init on non-Linux platforms
On 02/21/2014 11:38 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: > previously on this list hero...@gentoo.org contributed: > >>> And grepping through the output of "ps" or similar is not what >>> I would consider reliable and robust either. >> >> Nod. grepping `ps` is what we should avoid at all cost. > > All cost? While I like OpenRC and thanks to Gentoo for it and like > your mention of each to there own (I am no old-nerd by the way). I have > to disagree. Kevin, I don't think you understand the reasoning behind this. Again, the problem the init system has to solve here is being able to track a process with a 100% accuracy, so whatever automated mechanisms you have configured when certain situations occur, they have to find the correct process to work on as to not kill the daemon instance you actually still need. And, to my current knowledge, this is not possible without a mechanism like CGroups. Whether you rely on PID files or grep through the output of "ps" or use "pidof", either of them are fragile and prone to fail. I elaborated in my actual real-life case how PID files are prone to failure - I am aware that the situation with the full filesystem shouldn't occur in the first place, but, well administrators are just humans after all - and, using "ps" to track the process you are looking for to be able to restart, stop or kill it, can obviously be easily tricked into failure as well. Just imagine some other (malicious) process using the same name as well or when you need to control different instances of the very same process. "pidof" might help when you have the full path. But how does that keep you from working on the wrong instance? I have been looking for a solution of solving that problem without CGroups, but I haven't really found one yet. Do you know one? Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5307d8ff.1000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: default init on non-Linux platforms
On 02/23/2014 12:32 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: >> I agree and understand that this was the way to go back in the old >> days, but we shouldn't be using that on current setups. > > But you aren't planning on running openrc at all, are you? No, and I don't see any compelling reason why I should. With systemd there is one mature solution that does the job well and which is adopted by most other distributions now. I was merely expressing that I think that CGroups are an indispensable if you're planning to use Debian to build modern productive systems with high availability in mind. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5309dfe0.9000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: default init on non-Linux platforms
On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 12:43:14PM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > Since you aren't a user nor are going to be a user of openrc, I don't > see why you feel the need to critique it, especially on debian-devel > where the majority of subscribers are just not interested. Well. OpenRC was up for discussion as the default init, wasn't it? > You don't care about KFreeBSD, I don't care about KFreeBSD, but some do > so why not leave them to it and focus your energy on something you do > care about? That's correct. However, the problem with kFreeBSD is that I - as a package maintainer - have to invest extra time to make sure my packages don't FTBFS on these architectures as otherwise my packages wouldn't be allowed to migrate to testing. Time which I rather invest into more important packaging work. That would be the same as me forcing everyone else to make sure their packages build fine on m68k even though it has zero relevance. When Michael Stapelberg asked the audience eduring one of his talks [1] whether any of them was using the kFreeBSD port, not a single person was raising their hands, yet everyone else has to deal with it and yet some people lose their minds when it doesn't get the same attention as the Linux port. Adrian > [1] http://penta.debconf.org/dc13_schedule/speakers/2589.en.html -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140223130437.gd6...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: default init on non-Linux platforms
On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 08:50:13PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: > http://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=systemd-sysv+upstart+openrc+sysv-rc&show_installed=on&want_legend=on&want_ticks=on&from_date=2014-01-01&to_date=&hlght_date=&date_fmt=%25Y-%25m&beenhere=1 > > sysv-rc wins... > > With useless stats, we can say useless things. Two things: - virtually everyone installs systemd in parallel, not by installing systemd-sysv as this means you don't have an easy way of going back to System V Init in case you shoot yourself into the foot; you just install the package and point your init to the systemd binary - System V Init is the current default, of course it's installed on virtually all systems > http://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=systemd+upstart+openrc&show_installed=on&want_legend=on&want_ticks=on&from_date=2014-01-01&to_date=&hlght_date=&date_fmt=%25Y-%25m&beenhere=1 Those are the proper stats to be used and you clearly see the trend. And like your pet project - OpenRC - my pet project - the m68k port - isn't very popular either: > http://popcon.debian.org/stat/submission.png And I am not complaining that we're not making it a stable release, simply because it's pointless with a documented user base of 9. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140223125734.gc6...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: default init on non-Linux platforms
On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 08:45:10PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: > On 02/23/2014 07:32 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > > > > >> On 21 Feb 2014, at 12:22, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz > >> wrote: > >> > >> I agree and understand that this was the way to go back in the old > >> days, but we shouldn't be using that on current setups. > > > > But you aren't planning on running openrc at all, are you? > > No, he's just planning on more pointless critics. Hooray, another init system war on debian-devel on a sunny Sunday! I know, reliable service starting and process tracking is completely pointless and setting architectures with a neglectable userbase is what we should all invest our efforts into. I'm out, the weather is too nice :). Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140223130643.ge6...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#568303: can-utils Debian package
Hello Alexander! On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 10:44:48AM +0400, Alexander GQ Gerasiov wrote: > Thu, 20 Feb 2014 17:30:05 +0400 > Alexander Gerasiov wrote: > > > Sorry guys. I'm totally busy with other tasks last month :-(. As I > > remember your package is quite ready for upload, so I'll do it > > tomorrow (without my changes, just add myself as an uploader if you > > don't mind). Ok? > > As Uwe is worried about correctness I'd like to mention, that I did not > use his package as the base for last upload, but incorporated some of > lines he wrote into my package. That doesn't sound plausible to me given the fact that you imported his debian/rules file and commented out his overrride_dh_* statements [1]. If you had incorporated some of his changes, you'd just have use the default rules file from the template. You should also have asked yourself why Uwe had added those overrides and not just silently commented them out. If someone adds extra overrides, he usually has very good reasons. You should have asked Uwe about that. The package currently also includes the debian/README.source template and git-related files (.gitignore, gbp.conf). As someone who is sponsoring very often and has some experience with reviewing packages now, can-utils wouldn't have passed my quality requirements in its current state. I can therefore fully understand that Uwe is upset and I think it would be best if you asked the FTP Masters to have the package set to REJECT in NEW and get into touch with Uwe to coordinate improving the package. > Package is in new queue right now and will be soon available in > unstable repository. It's actually been set to not be reviewed before February 28th to be able to discuss this matter first. Cheers, Adrian > [1] > http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=collab-maint/can-utils.git;a=blob;f=debian/rules;h=cfd19c845d1fa085679931a9817e4cfd8b23c481;hb=9f50da4df75f5ea00620f94f01cf1205ef16fdc5 -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140224070825.ga31...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#568303: can-utils Debian package
On 02/24/2014 09:25 AM, Uwe Kleine-König wrote: >> You should also have asked yourself why Uwe had added those overrides >> and not just silently commented them out. If someone adds extra >> overrides, he usually has very good reasons. You should have asked Uwe >> about that. > This is wrong, the overrides are not from me. d/rules seems to be > Alexander's (well, or Joey Hess' and Craig Small's) work. Ok, then I misunderstood your concerns. I apologize to Alexander regarding this and take everything back ;). >>> Package is in new queue right now and will be soon available in >>> unstable repository. >> >> It's actually been set to not be reviewed before February 28th to be >> able to discuss this matter first. > I think the best will be when Alexander and I discuss the issue in > private. I don't see a need to pull that conflict into public. I agree. Still, you should post the results here. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/530b0e74.6010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Bug#568303: can-utils Debian package
Hi Alexander! On 02/24/2014 09:59 AM, Alexander GQ Gerasiov wrote: > Unfortunately I missed to fixup pair of changes when build package, > that's why second revision was uploaded right after first. > You are talking about revision -1 which really had some issues. > Please comment on the last version available. Sure, I can have a look at the second revision. But you could also just asked the FTP team to set the package on REJECT to be able to sort out the issues, then do a clean upload. I usually try to keep a clean package history. >> If you had incorporated some of his changes, you'd just have use the >> default rules file from the template. >> >> You should also have asked yourself why Uwe had added those overrides >> and not just silently commented them out. If someone adds extra >> overrides, he usually has very good reasons. You should have asked Uwe >> about that. > I think you did not get clean with this or that's Uwe who mislead you. Yep. I misunderstood Uwe. From his first comments it appeared to me that exactly that had happened. So, I apologize to you Alexander and take my statements back. > Those commented out overrides were left in rules file from my previous > experiments, and not needed anymore. And they have nothing with Uwe's > package, I believe. Alright, thanks for the explanation. > I can count all changes I took from his work: > Arch: linux-any (totally forget that SocketCAN is Linux specific) > Several strings in description field. > > And that's all. =\ Ok, it appeared to me that the situation was the complete opposite of that, i.e. you took Uwe's work and put your name onto it. Thanks for the clarification. >> >> The package currently also includes the debian/README.source template >> and git-related files (.gitignore, gbp.conf). > Template README.source was also removed in -2 revision. Good! > As for .gitignore and gbp.conf, this package is maintained under git > and git-buildpackage and I see no reason, why thees files should not be > included in debian/ True. I am using gbp as well and I completely forgot about that. The files shouldn't pop up in the actual package. > I think some gbp related info should goes to README.source. One day > I'll write it. Good idea! >> >> As someone who is sponsoring very often and has some experience with >> reviewing packages now, can-utils wouldn't have passed my quality >> requirements in its current state. > I could not agree with you if we speak about revision -2. Well, unless you have fixed the copyright issues that Uwe has mentioned, you will get a REJECT with absolute certainty. Did you fix the copyright information? Are the sources from Volkswagen actually covered by a free license? > Conclusion: > Looks like Uwe decided that I modified his package, removed him from > Maintainer and broke all around. And he started offense instead of > discussion. Well, you see what poor communication leads to. When you decide to let him join as a comaintainer, you should communicate such changes, especially before doing uploads. >>> Package is in new queue right now and will be soon available in >>> unstable repository. >> >> It's actually been set to not be reviewed before February 28th to be >> able to discuss this matter first. > Well, I remember time when packages were held in new for 2-3 months =) They still are. Depends on the package, Look at zfs-utils which has been in NEW for 6 months now. Obviously no one dares to touch it. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/530b116f.8040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Idea for apt-get : getting source code instead getting binaries
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 03/06/2014 05:01 PM, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: > Script to do this attached; can I have my GSoC money now? :) Comic Book Guy: I'm interested in upgrading my 28.8k modem to a fibre-optic T1 line. Will you be able to provide an interface which is compatible with my Token Ring network setup? Homer: Can I have some money now? On a more serious side note, I think OP's point was to promote a package format where the upstream developer already does all the work and create a Debian package on the fly which could simply be dropped into the archives ready to install. Even when the package wasn't in Debian in the first place, which is the main assumption of your script, Paule. However, this shifts the responsibility for the QA of a package from Debian towards upstream which will probably end in fear and loathing in the archives in no time. Turning an upstream source into a working Debian package isn't really time-consuming and difficult for most cases. However, creating a well- maintainable and (lintian-)clean package into Debian isn't and takes lots of care and attention by a dedicated Debian Maintainer which knows the in and outs of Debian, its Policy and its powerful tools. Cheers, Adrian - -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTGLdLAAoJEHQmOzf1tfkT6xAQAK3tirD60pLctFdDXwWaWguz 6q86WCxMCJzB8Lsui7UcV2Ert2+Sm6YGQlZrMKUzydor9p1Z42091OfXgHWArdY8 /0afJ2YTGEJxBtPxncCH2WlwcA7c5wCEJdPPdEemxMgiQDD3MeNH5bp4bEJreN73 T37ug61urFhM1alWsjLOC2dMHbuaTHLNSHaETKwRAHOxJ4MIt4JwQLyPgJtlLw7V 2jsOxTG/ebKjlg/EHUZsbwyMWZnkzjC5RAIcM5UY5l5J4XGYKlUBZrxhTqacT/M8 0vSPGr7/5Ky3SBvPUuw9x09oEDK3I2MNrWNiH8wAP3c8duv9ue9iEviTBWR+q+/Z mkbzwA3PvI5MJacUX4ISDDhzLgzUpDfghC6s1USNEqU0Iy4ABsDgIg9OrPyqmZfJ 68grddbbog/LocueyIoQPrRChpqvYGCgwiD4yxaW3QVcEGyxCmjVb4unamJ4RrAS Onkz883hvdx6Nof13639hSW9sc9y9zYwEU0U0I/4/CxHcPHY80yOUIPrKxfMZoin rfAoRxkuz3YBg2Hqt2uIbFKbn3a86IGuZuq81NmWPY2F+VuzOn8fboOFghUwCgqd RRFSBqg0aydA6H1B1TdVOerwx3giiRq2nGZOkg4denCXP7rYlZ0BrPFqQDwaHzRN u+pu2jAQq290TyzVnFsT =5IBC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5318b751.4010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: --> APT's New Version <--
On 04/02/2014 07:49 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: It feels great to use apt instead of apt-get / apt-cache, and the new colorful output is awesome (btw, will Dpkg::Progress-Fancy be on by default on the next update? I kind of like it...). Any hint on how to properly configure the colorful output? I've set APT::Color to "true"; but that just gives a different color for the download progress message, the rest is still colorless. Am I missing something? Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/533c315a.9060...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian default desktop environment
On 04/07/2014 07:26 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: > For a desktop use, probably. For server setup, please don't. The CD1 is > better than the netinst CD because... it doesn't need network! You deploy your servers from a CD? Don't get me wrong, but installing from CD in an enterprise environment doesn't sound very professional to me. We use FAI for that. 99% of our servers don't even have a CD drive anymore, just some of the older ones. And even if you want to install from CD, most modern servers provide a BMC with keyboard, mouse and video redirect over the network which also allows you to mount ISO files as virtual CDs. In that case, you don't really care about whether it's a CD or DVD. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5342e1b1.1070...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian default desktop environment
On 04/07/2014 07:39 PM, Russ Allbery wrote: > > Ah, BMC. Now every computer comes with an extra full-fledged computer! > The main computer is for your use, and the other computer is for the use > of the attacker. That's why we block the kvms in our firewall so they cannot be reached from outside. I'm sorry, but when you have hundreds of servers in your server room, there is no other way than using automatic deployment and kvm over network. We have one SGI Altix ICE 8200 system with 3 racks, 64 blades each resulting in 192 servers which you are not installing manually unless you want to lose your sanity. And without a kvm, I'd have to run to the server room each time the hardware crashes hard or similar problems. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5342e48f.5040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian default desktop environment
On 04/07/2014 08:24 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: > > That's what I'm using yes. Probably you should have read my message up > to its end, where I wrote: "I'm also unsure all my KVM over IPs support > images for DVDs rather than simply CD." No need to be rude about that, ok? I missed that part. Jeez. >> In that case, you don't really care about whether >> it's a CD or DVD. > > Even if they do, I don't see the point in using images 6 times the size > (takes longer to download and uses more storage for no improvement). Use FAI or Puppet, problem solved. Setting up a network boot environment allows much quicker installation anyway. For us, installing a machine involves: - unpack the machine - hook it up - add new host to host database - power on and set up machine for network boot - done Takes around 20 minutes for a server and no ISO images or CDs/DVDs involved whatsoever. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5342f032.7090...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian default desktop environment
On 04/07/2014 08:58 PM, Jakub Wilk wrote: > * John Paul Adrian Glaubitz , 2014-04-07, > 20:36: >> No need to be rude about that, ok? > > “Oho!” said the pot to the kettle; > “You are dirty and ugly and black!” I wasn't rude in my previous mail, if yes, quote please. -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5342f724.7070...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian default desktop environment
On 04/07/2014 09:08 PM, Cyril Brulebois wrote: > (Maybe it's just me but calling people “not very professional” is > something I consider very rude; not Thomas' mentioning the fact that > the original text had sufficient context in its single paragraph.) Jeez, I said the method was not professional, not him. Don't put thing into my mouth I didn't say. -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Changelogs - was: Re: [dd-list] Please use Architecture: linux-any
On 04/13/2014 02:25 AM, gregor herrmann wrote: > > (The git history + d/changelog don't say why I changed this in 2011, > I guess it was a similar request :)) And now you know why I am always so nitpicky about changelogs :). As someone who has been reviewing several dozen packages over the past 18 months when sponsoring them, I have seen many packages where the debian/changelog had many useless or virtually empty entries. Things like "Fix a minor bug in xyz" or "Fix bug #133222" aren't really what you'd expect from a changelog. Instead, a proper changelog entry should include exactly what changes were made and why there were made, e.g.: * Add missing build dependency on libabc-dev. Fixes FTBFS on powerpc. (Closes: #122333) * Add debian/patches/0001-hardening.patch to pass proper compiler and linker flags necessary for hardening. Just providing the bug number isn't helpful either. Some older bugs I have searched for aren't actually accessible through the bug tracker anymore. And, even if the bug number is included, there is no guarantee the bug report actually documents the cause of the bug or the changes that were made to remedy it. Some bug reports don't even include any discussions besides the original bug report and the automated message which closed the bug when the fixed version was uploaded. So, in order to avoid situations like these in the future, please write proper changelogs, people! Your future self or the future maintainer of your package will be very glad to have them. It can save you or them lots of time digging through mailing list archives, commit histories and similar resources. And, while you're at it, please use proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, indentation and avoid trailing spaces :). PS: If you're maintaining your packages source in git, just use git-dch to create a nicely formatted and complete changelog entry including all changes since the last package revision. It usually just involves some additional editing since git-dch doesn't wrap lines after 80 characters (which lintian will complain about), for example (I should file a bug against git-dch, maybe). Thank you! Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#749579: ITP: virtualjaguar -- Cross-platform Atari Jaguar emulator
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist Owner: John Paul Adrian Glaubitz * Package name: virtualjaguar Version : 2.1.0 Upstream Author : James Hammons * URL : http://icculus.org/virtualjaguar/ * License : GPL-3, Public Domain Programming Lang: C, C++ Description : Cross-platform Atari Jaguar emulator Virtual Jaguar is a cross-platform emulator for Atari's infamous Jaguar console, the last video game system to ever released by the now defunct company. The Jaguar was marketed as the first 64-bit video game system despite the fact that it was actually a 32-bit system at heart, just the blitter operated in 64-bit mode. The system was a commercial failure and eventually lead to Atari leaving the market for video game systems. This emulator features an intuitive user interface and emulation of all of the major subsystems of the Atari Jaguar console. This includes full GPU and DSP emulation as well as emulation of the Atari Jaguar CD. Most of the commercial Atari games are supported, albeit some of them have some minor glitches when running in the emulator. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140528100811.16221.9800.report...@z6.physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: SV: MATE 1.8 has now fully arrived in Debian
Svante, On 06/24/2014 07:57 PM, Svante Signell wrote: > I strongly recommend the systemd-must-die package to prevent systemd > components being installed when dist-upgrading without the user being > aware. I'd appreciate if you kept your anti-systemd rants off this list. Thanks! Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53a9cdf1.10...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Debian Changelogs - was: Re: Bug#756582: new syntax error when invoking "udevadm test" breaks installing/ upgrading
> This is caused by this, change between the afforementioned versions, > which is also not mentioned in the package's changelog: ^ Exactly! I cannot stress this further enough, please always document _every_ change you make to the packaging in the debian/changelog. This is exactly the reason it is intended for. When you create a new package revision, make a debdiff against the current version in unstable and compare your changes. Include every change you made in the debian/ directory in the changelog entry for the new package revision. This way, everyone looking at the new package revision has an instant overview what was changed and bugs like these are easier to find and to fix. The easiest way to get comprehensive and pretty changelog entries is to use git-buildpackage for keeping your package in a revision control system and use "git-dch --auto" to generate the changelog entry for the new version. Of course, this assumes you are writing sensible and useful git commit messages :). Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140731202513.gb26...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Switching default dpkg-deb compressor to xz
On 05/14/2013 10:53 PM, John D. Hendrickson and Sara Darnell wrote: Ben what basis do you have against .gz ? It was already mentioned, it takes more space. Everyone (e.g. Fedora with rpm) is switching to xz, not just Debian. The Linux kernel is using more advanced compression algorithms as well. What problem are you having with xz? And I'd love to know if it won't cause dependancy problems when someone has more than one debian they are dealing with. Yes, of course, we need to support every single configuration and every possible choice of preferred software again, meaning we are doomed to stick to old stuff again. Really, is this argument going to be brought up forever? So if we can't make everyone 100% happy, we shouldn't do anything at all? This isn't an argument anymore, it has become an idiotic circle jerk. Stop it, I am getting tired of that! I doubt it's as simple as stated. It is. We are already actively using it and you aren't even noticing. I have sponsored at least half a dozen packages recently which were using xz compression. No problems and no bugs reported at all with them. If you like, I can verify them to work on my 1993 Amiga 1200, on my 1995 Sun Ultra 1, on my PowerMac G4 and my Raspberry Pi, just to make sure it really works for everyone! And yes I do think there are some that would inject problems (such as killing init for a new startup that isn't compatible). Dude, if you want to stick to 1985 technology, just use something else. We don't have and don't want to be compatible to the original(R) Unix(TM) because the original Unix is a piece of shit. Have you ever sat in front of some ancient Sun, HP-UX or OSF/1 workstation using the original pure Unix design? It's so cumbersome and uncomfortable to use, it makes you throw up. I had to deal with plenty of these beasts in my career and I was always happy once I were back to my Linux box. If you are using one of these, you can forget nearly everything you ever learnt about Unix from Linux. It probably won't work. If we are losing compatibility with old Unix stuff because we're introducing new stuff to Linux and Debian, I can only say "god riddance!". The "Unix Hater's Handbook" exists for a reason. I honestly think that everyone who praises the good old Unix design has never actually used any of the original Unices, they wouldn't praise them otherwise. There are all kinds of proposals continually that are unwise. And this one has been complained against and re-submitted often already. Please provide viable sources, thank you. So why shouldn't I repeat past complaints others have made on previous posts. I don't know, but I think you shouldn't. Progress will happen anyways. I think your singling me out. My singling what? Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5192ac28.6000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: /bin/sh (was Re: jessie release goals)
On 05/15/2013 02:16 AM, Michael Biebl wrote: Am 15.05.2013 01:26, schrieb brian m. carlson: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 10:08:21PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: This is utter bullshit and you should already know it. Systemd is much more reliable as a whole than any other implementation. I have yet to see a use case where it is not better. It is not better if you don't want proprietary binary-format logs in The format may be binary, but it certainly is not proprietary [1] I really can't believe people are still coming up with that non-sense. I have no idea why people assume that a binary format means it can only be processed with a special, proprietary tool. Binary simply means what it means, binary and not text which means it's a more stream-lined and machine-readable format as opposed to a text format with no formatting at all. And, when it comes to processing, binary data is actually *easier* to process. Everyone who has ever written a text parser themselves will agree. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5192d6f4.6090...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian systemd survey
On 05/21/2013 10:53 PM, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: - Neither systemd nor upstart are likely to be ported to kfreebsd soon, as they both rely on many Linux-specific features and interfaces. What about launchd? Wouldn't it be possible to port that to Debian/kFreeBSD? It's designed to run in a BSD userland, after all. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519c7077.5040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian launchd survey
On 05/22/2013 05:51 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 09:15:03AM +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: What about launchd? Wouldn't it be possible to port that to Debian/kFreeBSD? It's designed to run in a BSD userland, after all. That doesn't seem like it would help at all with the concern about keeping our userspace aligned across kernels. I honestly don't think this is going to be a realistic goal considering the fact neither upstart or systemd are still not working on BSD or even Hurd and I don't see any serious efforts by anyone to see this happen anytime soon. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519d0dad.2000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian systemd survey
On 05/22/2013 06:41 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 02:45:54PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 22 mai 2013 à 08:16 +0200, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit : - there are 300+ upstart job files ready to be imported from Ubuntu When you compare the time it takes to write an upstart job file or a systemd unit file, to the time it takes to proprely test it, I don’t think this argument makes any sense. Please leave the FUD at the door. Writing upstart jobs is not difficult; while there are some gotchas currently with process lifecycle (which will be fixed soon), there is also very complete documentation (for these issues, and generally). systemd's unit files are still way simpler than upstart job files since these are just more or less a simple set of instructions to give systemd some hints on how to deal with the targets and services, it actually does most of the work automatically without the need of scripts at all (which are obviously still required for upstart). If the only things we do for improving the distribution are to take stuff from Ubuntu because, well, it’s here, we might as well stop developing anything at all. Sure; obviously the right thing to do is to instead take stuff from GNOME and freedesktop.org without regard to integration with our existing system, because if Lennart says it's right it must be so. Honestly, these personal accusations against Lennart are getting old and boring. Don't you really have any other good argument to bring up against systemd other than you dislike *one* of the systemd developers?* And while I don't support all of the decisions GNOME upstream makes, I fully support f.d.o as an actual free and independent organization which hosts the development of systemd. *When* there is one company that is trying to fragment the Linux world then it's Canonical with its urge to come up with one NIH project after another, be it Bazaar (which seems to have been abandoned by upstream with >2000 open bugs [1]) or the Mir display server which isn't supported by neither the X.org/DRM developers or any developers of desktops like KDE, Enlightment or GNOME. Adrian * As you may know, systemd is developed by a large amount of contributors. > [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519d1008.3040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian systemd survey
On 05/22/2013 07:50 PM, Martin Wuertele wrote: Actually it sounds like you propose to stop developing and take everything from Redhat, Lennart, Gnome because it's there and they say so. And another one. Why is it that almost anyone who isn't favor of systemd is directly going off insulting their developers or any of the organizations behind of it? You know why many projects are adopting many technologies that are developed by RedHat people? It's because RedHat is an excellent upstream and they are one of the largest contributors to the whole Linux software stack, be it the kernel or anything above. Distributions would adopt more innovative and useful technologies developed by Canonical, for example, if there were any. I can't actually think of anything by Canonical which has been widely adopted outside Ubuntu. Blame Canonical for being a bad upstream, not RedHat for being a good one! Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519d1163.9070...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian systemd survey
On 05/23/2013 06:56 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: * As you may know, systemd is developed by a large amount of contributors. If you are tired of seeing the same arguments, Personal insults is something you call arguments? You have a weird method of discussion ... > don't post things which have already been debunked as well. You are doing the very same thing that you are complaining about: I already posted in this list the git log stats, and Lennart owns more than 40% of all the commits. So no, Lennart is not just *one* of the systemd developers, he's the main one, and by far. You didn't debunk anything, you're interpreting statements wrong and obviously don't know your math. Please re-read what I said, which is > "As you may know, systemd is developed by a large amount of contributors" How on earth does that contradict with the fact that 40%, i.e. the minority of all contributions are done by the original author. 40% still means that 60% of the code comes from other people and those are 145 contributors according to ohloh [1]. OpenRC has 19 [2], upstart has even only 7 [3] contributors. So, yeah, systemd is definitely the project which has the largest amount of contributors which was exactly my point. Adrian > [1] http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd > [2] http://www.ohloh.net/p/openrc > [3] http://www.ohloh.net/p/upstart -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519dcb7d.9010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian systemd survey
On 05/23/2013 11:43 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: Did you include the stats for all projects systemd wants to replace as well? For just one piece: * busybox-syslogd * dsyslog * inetutils-syslogd * rsyslog * socklog-run * syslog-ng-core Well, how many of these are actually used in the real world? Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519e0751.4000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian systemd survey
On 05/24/2013 01:20 AM, brian m. carlson wrote: rsyslog is priority important and is the default syslog implementation in Debian. It's also the default in Fedora. I think we can be confident that it gets lots of real-world use. I am fully aware of that. I was mainly talking about the other logging daemons which most of them I haven't even heard of before. It's a bit unfair to use these for statistics, they simply don't play any important role. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519efeb8.3080...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian systemd survey
On 05/24/2013 01:15 AM, brian m. carlson wrote: I can use only parts of coreutils if I desire. The same is true for systemd. Ubuntu is using parts of systemd without actually using the daemon itself. Also, coreutils does not start services on startup that I do not need. Aeh, what the heck are you comparing here? My cat also doesn't fly and my hamster doesn't play the guitar. coreutils doesn't start services because it isn't an init daemon. However, what systemd actually does as compared to all other init systems, it only starts the services you actually need. It won't start ssh, for example, unless someone needs it. upstart, on the other hand, starts ssh once the other services it depends on are present (unless they changed that design aspect in more recent versions of upstart), even though you actually don't need ssh right now. It just starts it because its dependencies are fulfilled, while systemd actually starts ssh once a process or a target explicitly requires it. Thus, upstart actually turns the dependency chain upside down which is actually one of the main reason the systemd developers started from scratch instead of jumping the upstart band wagon. It's an inherent design issue in upstart. systemd, on the other hand, has spawned systemd-journald, which I do not want or need, which is autorestarted, and which cannot be stopped with service. Since I am not using its functionality, there is no point in having the service running. rsyslog is very capable. You can use systemd without the journal, it's optional. And, btw, it's not rsyslog which is broken but the fact that logging the way syslog does is quite a mess. There is no syntax convention for any logging whatsoever so you will have to come up with scripts to parse syslog for every single daemon that you want to watch. The systemd journal, OTOH, uses a defined format for the logging entries which means you can easily search your logs for any events matching a certain daemon and severity type of event and so on. It's much more powerful. Also, traditionally init has been limited to starting and stopping groups of services. It has not been involved in logging, session management, seat management, hotkey handling, or suspend and resume, except perhaps to start and stop the services which perform those functions. However well-intentioned, systemd does a lot more than init traditionally has, and definitely encroaches into areas that were not traditionally init-related. The Unix Way is to use separate processes for separate tasks. "Traditionally, TVs and monitors used CRTs and discrete parts as components. We are therefore not allowed to improve the design and use LC displays and integrated circuits." Please stop treating the "The Unix Way" as the ultimate design concept which already has reached perfection and must not get unchanged for eternity. Did you, in fact know, that even the creators of the original Unix concept weren't quite happy with the design and actually replaced Unix with something called Plan 9? Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/519f02b0.7000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Switching to mozilla ESR in stable-security
Hi Moritz! On 05/28/2013 10:33 PM, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote: we need to change the way security fixes are handled for Mozilla in stable-security. The backporting of security fixes is no longer sustainable resource-wise. I second this. Having one of the most commonly used desktop applications lacking so much behind the current upstream versions in a newly released Debian version is very frustrating and annoying. Having the current ESR versions of Iceweael and Icedove in Debian stable is the best practice as these releases were just intended to be used in scenarios were Debian stable is deployed. As such, we'll switch to releasing the ESR releases of iceweasel and icedove in stable-security. Great! Really looking forward. Let me add to that there is currently no easy way (e.g. without rebuilding the package) to install Icedove ESR on Wheezy. The Debian Mozilla packaging team suggests installing Icedove ESR from unstable [1], but alas this version is linked against libc6 2.17 and will therefore force an update of the libc6 installed on Wheezy which is unacceptable [2]. I therefore urge anyone involved in packaging Icedove to provide a version of Icedove ESR linked against the version of libc6 in Wheezy. Also, if anyone of the GNOME package maintainers is reading this, why does the gnome meta package depend on xul-ext-adblock-plus? This often causes major headache when upgrading either Iceweasel or Icedove in the form that using the wrong upgrade path will result in partial or full removal of GNOME. In the future the majority of packages should thus rather be installed through http://addons.mozilla.org instead of Debian packages. I think this is the best approach. Most addons should be installed through the built-in addon manager as this will make keeping addons up-to-date much easier and reduces maintaining efforts. As long as we're going with the latest ESR versions, I assume that most of the most popular addons will work when installed through the official upstream sources. Cheers, Adrian > [1] http://mozilla.debian.net/ > [2] http://paste.debian.net/7192/ -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51a53af2.3010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Multi-Arch for plugin packages
Hello!
I am maintaining one of the gkrellm2 plugin packages, namely
gkrellm2-cpufreq. All of these gkrellm2 plugin packages install their
plugins into /usr/lib/gkrellm2/plugins, including mine.
However, I was wondering whether the plugins should actually
get installed into /usr/lib/${DEB_HOST_MULTIARCH}/gkrellm2/plugins.
Since the plugins aren't really considered shared libraries, I
am not sure whether Multi-Arch has to be considered for these.
Anyone knows how Multi-Arch is handled for other similar plugin
packages, other than gkrellm2 plugins?
I have created a Multi-Arch version of my gkrellm2-cpufreq now,
but I haven't uploaded it yet.
Cheers,
Adrian
--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
`. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
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Re: Custom Reload command/signal in upstart
On 06/01/2013 12:24 PM, Vincent Bernat wrote: I don't know how systemd behaves in this way (so this is not something to hold against upstart), but there are so many daemons that need to be started after the network has been configured that it should be easy to do this. For example, most daemons binding to a specific address needs to be started after the address has been configured. Which is exactly the very one design decision which is wrong in upstart. Starting any service as soon as all its dependencies are fulfilled, is putting the dependency chain upside down and doesn't make any sense. There is no point to start a daemon unless you actually need it. You want services to start when you need them, meaning you always keep the amount of running daemons minimal. systemd runs sshd when someone tries to connect to it and before running sshd, it makes sure all of its dependencies are running and starts them prior to starting sshd if necessary. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51a9d283.2020...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: systemd .service file conversion
On 06/01/2013 11:59 AM, Marc Haber wrote: Before saying things like that, please file a GR removing the "universal" from Debian's claim. Calm down. Debian has been called "universal" long before the arrival of the non-Linux kernels. And, in fact, Marco and Joss have a point that if hardly anyone is using the non-Linux ports, not even people like you who are strongly defending them, there is no point in putting efforts into keeping them maintained. I have had the experience that often the kfreebsd ports of my packages and of other packages I NMU'd needed to be additionally taken care of which means I would spend time and efforts which I could spend on other, more important projects. What's the point in doing that work when, in the end, hardly anyone is using it? Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51a9d019.9030...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Custom Reload command/signal in upstart
On 06/01/2013 01:51 PM, Zygmunt Krynicki wrote: I believe there was a counter example of using CUPS where unless you really start it, other machines won't discover it via avahi and you won't be able to print to a networked printer. One exception does not mean that all daemons should be started like that. If you need to have CUPS running in the background, idling, then you can just let systemd start it anytime you want with the proper configuration in its unit file. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51a9e31d.1000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: systemd .service file conversion
On 06/01/2013 04:48 PM, Marc Haber wrote: On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 12:42:33 +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: What's the point in doing that work when, in the end, hardly anyone is using it? Freedom. It is not free to take away freedom just because too few people have chosen to exercise freedom. So, because a very few people want to choose a rather unusual setup - which again even you as a strong proponent of it aren't using - all of the developers should do extra work instead of working on things which they like? Isn't that limiting the freedom of the developers as well? No one is taking away your freedom if we make decisions on certain default configurations. If, for example, we chose systemd as the default init system, no one would keep you from using your init system of choice by changing from the default one after installation. Similar decisions are made in other projects as well. The Linux kernel dropped support for the original i386 CPU recently and, code for support DECnet has been orphaned as well, meaning it might be removed in the near future. It's still free software, so you can do whatever you want. It just sometimes makes sense to make pragmatic decisions in order to guarantee well maintained code and efficient release cycles. Again, it's not worth the effort when, in the end, hardly anyone is using it. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51aa136a.2040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: systemd .service file conversion
On 06/02/2013 04:25 PM, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le samedi 01 juin 2013 à 11:59 +0200, Marc Haber a écrit : Before saying things like that, please file a GR removing the "universal" from Debian's claim. Silly me. I thought “universal” was meant about usage, like the ability to run the same OS on a supercomputer, a toaster, a smartphone and a space station. I want that toaster :D. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51ab82ae.8010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 02:24 PM, Florian Lohoff wrote: well, this could be related to Wheezy, or to you, or to the people you've been talking with, or something else, or a combination... I've switched 3 users from Squeeze to Wheezy in the last 2 weeks, and also to Gnome 3 btw, and they all *love* it. And I also must say, I'm quite impressed, Debian on the desktop has come a long way. So, IOW YMMV. We are 4 people in the room and we all hate Gnome3. KDE is too bloated and xfce4 is too minimal. We all switched away from gnome-terminal to roxterm as gnome-terminal is full of resizing bugs. We're working to get Mate into Debian [1-2], so you will be back on your beloved GNOME2 desktop in Debian Jessie and newer :). Adrian > [1] http://packages.qa.debian.org/m/mate-common.html > [2] http://packages.qa.debian.org/m/mate-doc-utils.html -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af34dc.8090...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 02:39 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: 2013/6/5 Florian Lohoff mailto:f...@zz.de>> For me wheezy is the worst of all Debian release i have been using since bo. /signed Just one example to add to flo's Really? I think it's one of the best releases ever. Multi-Arch alone is worth the upgrade. And you can't blame Debian for GNOME3, this was a decision made upstream. In fact, Debian has always been one of the distributions which tries to keep (bad ?) design decisions from upstream away from its users. For example, Debian kept gdm 2.20 for a very long time to continue to provide XDMCP support. the upgrade from squeeze to wheezy, was not a clean one. I've had to install a package (some lib-gd-annoying.deb), that wasn't installed before and wasn't able to install because of some unresolved debs. Honestly, what do you expect. It's simply impossible to always guarantee a perfect upgrade from one release to another. You aren't just upgrading the core of the operating system, but a huge set of user applications. Plus, I would have honestly appreciated that if more people (especially the ones who complain now) would have helped in finding and smashing RC bugs during the Wheezy freeze. In fact, many the RC bugs were related to Squeeze-to-Wheezy upgrade issues. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af3a31.2020...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 03:34 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: So gnome said Debian had to use GNOME3 for default? Interesting. I don't understand. You can easily set the default xsession through update-alternatives. We are installing MATE as well and have set it as the default session. No complaints about the desktop since the migration to Wheezy. In fact, Debian has always been one of the distributions which tries to keep (bad ?) design decisions from upstream away from its users. yes, "it has always been". As we said. It still is :). Of course, you're right. If i had a "side-show" setting, I've nothing to say. But I think Apache and PHP should have tested which a widely range of users. Then again, you could have helped us. People are complaining on one hand that the releases take forever and on the other hand, now complain the quality isn't up to their standards. I was also confused, because I could really find fast a workkaround. So, there was no reason, that this wasn't fixed on release. Well, did you file a bug report? Plus, I would have honestly appreciated that if more people (especially the ones who complain now) would have helped in finding and smashing RC bugs during the Wheezy freeze. In fact, many the RC bugs were related to Squeeze-to-Wheezy upgrade issues. I've done a few. Especially on Samba, but I rembered there was a bug, which was fixed on upstream, could be fixed in debian and was found again on a upgrade (just in debian; not upstream). So yeah, I've been also through some pain and don't just rant here. Do you have a link? It's not that we're not taking complaints seriously. If there was actually a bug report and it, indeed, wasn't fixed then you're right to complain. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af6962.3010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 07:24 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: You striped my other comment. What it is now? A decision of upstream or not? I stripped it, because I wasn't considering it a valid argument. No one keeps you from setting your default xsession and you actually should do that when deploying Debian in a large computing environment where you are the site administrator. Are you going around and install all your machines manually using the Debian Installer? Usually, people use automatic installation systems like FAI (like we do at our department) which allow you to set things like the default session and even let you avoid GNOME3 completely. If you want, your users will never see GNOME3. I am sorry, but you can't blame Debian if you are unwilling to customize the configuration to fulfill your needs. if you don't just cut my comments but read them, you'd have all your questions already answered. Again, Debian having chosen GNOME as the default desktop will never be a problem in a corporate environment if you as the site administrator create a configuration for your needs. The decision to turn GNOME into that what it is now was made upstream, not in Debian. Debian has just chosen to stay with GNOME as the default desktop when performing the default installation as it has been like for quite some time. And, again, changing the default desktop is a no brainer: > update-alternatives --set x-session-manager /usr/bin/mate-session Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af862c.2040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Debian/Wheezy general rant Was: mount point gets "(deleted)" / unable to unmount
On 06/05/2013 09:15 PM, Bjoern Meier wrote: Ah what? You are confusing something, my skill to do something has nothing to do with that I have to do it. Well, you said you are deploying Debian in a corporate environment so I assume you are doing some heavy custom configuration anyways and thus it shouldn't be a problem to change the default xsession as well. I really don't understand this decision. Gnome3 was controverse discussed in many media, so "Take it or make your move and change it?" It is that hard, to build a dialog and ask for a desktop? You have the choice, but we already made it for you". There is no dialog to select the default desktop as only one default desktop will fit onto the first disk of the offline installation medium if I remember correctly. I remenber, that I complain on this list about how few have the intention to understand and maintain they own system. Now I understand how got this so far. Debian seems to grow as a system that doesn't make it necessary to decide or to understand. At least some want to see debian as this. Meh. Debian *is* a system that makes decision necessary. Just currently not the way you would like to see it. No one says it won't change in the future. Maybe we settle with Mate as the default desktop in the future, who knows. So, no FAI is needed on my site. Again: it is NOT my problem to solve any problem or tasks of customization. What? Really? It is not your problem to do your custom configuration? Seriously, I have no idea what you are complaining about. If you use the default installation without the efforts of a custom, corporate configuration, it is not Debian's problem. Using an automatic installation system like FAI is absolutely mandatory in my opinion, no one wants to install >500 machines manually. When we install new servers or desktops, we create a new host in our host database, hook up the machine to the network and run a fully automatic installation over the network. Everything else is just a waste of time and resources. I can't believe that anyone would ever not use an automated installation system in such an environment. My Problem is just: the more I have to customize, the more time I have to spent, the more time I have to spent, the more expensive it is. So yes, all unnecessary changes are annoying. Not to mention, that I know that software changes over time. If you do the customization properly, the time invested is worth the results. We spent some time creating the custom configuration, but after that the whole setup is working and can be installed with nearly zero efforts of administration. I am sorry, but you can't blame Debian if you are unwilling to customize the configuration to fulfill your needs. if you don't just cut my comments but read them, you'd have all your questions already answered. Again, Debian having chosen GNOME as the default desktop will never be a problem in a corporate environment if you as the site administrator create a configuration for your needs. The decision to turn GNOME into that what it is now was made upstream, not in Debian. Debian has just chosen to stay with GNOME as the default desktop when performing the default installation as it has been like for quite some time. And, again, changing the default desktop is a no brainer: Ok, you asking me If i filled a bug. I said, you have your answers already and you just bring your no-brainer-gnome3-argument again? If you don't want to read my Email spare your typing. If not: EOD. As I said, I am deploying Debian in a large corporate environment myself so I would understand your claims if they were justified, but, alas they aren't. There is no need to be huffy and issue a "EOD" if you are unwilling to invest some time yourself and customize the configuration. Debian simply can't meet all needs with one standard shipping configuration. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51af956e.9080...@physik.fu-berlin.de
cc65 in non-free
Hey there! I am interested in packaging cc65 for Debian but I am having my doubts if that's actually possible license-wise. The cc65 license states [1]: " 1: You don't charge anything for the copy. It is permissable to charge a nominal fee for media, etc." While as we all know this declares such software as non-free, see point i. in [2]. Yet, I am wondering, would it still be legal to upload such a software package to the non-free section? Cheers, Adrian > [1] http://www.cc65.org/index.php#Copyright > [2] http://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51bcf0b7.8000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Bug#714058: ITP: cc65 -- Cross compiler and toolchain for 6502-based systems
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist Owner: John Paul Adrian Glaubitz * Package name: cc65 Version : 2.13.3 Upstream Author : Ullrich von Bassewitz * URL : http://www.cc65.org/ * License : zlib and non-free Programming Lang: C Description : Cross compiler and toolchain for 6502-based systems cc65 is a complete cross development package for 6502-based systems. It features a C compiler plus all the standard binutils one would expect from a toolchain, including an archiver, an assembler, a disassembler, a linker, an object file dump utility and even a 6502 CPU simulator. A resource compiler for the GEOS operating system as well as various support libraries are also part of the distribution. The following targets are supported: * Commodore C64 * GEOS operating system on C64 * Commodore C128 * Commodore C16, C116 and Plus/4 * Commodore P500 * Commodore 600/700 family * Apple II * Atari 8 bit family * Oric Atmos * Nintendo NES * Watara Supervision * Atari Lynx Both direct library support (startup/initialization code) as well as support libraries are supplied for these targets. These libraries include support for the following APIs: * conio (text-based console I/O, non-scrolling) * dio (block-oriented disk I/O) * em (expanded memory, allowing to address >64K RAM) * joystick (support for joystick devices) * mouse (mouse support and other absolute input devices) * serial (serial I/O) * tgi (2D graphics primitives) The cc65 compiler was originally written by John R. Dunning and comes with an open source license which is not DFSG-compliant since it forbids to charge for the distribution of a copy of the software. cc65 is therefore going to be part of the non-free distribution. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130625110412.15053.51198.report...@z6.physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Plan to release a gplv3 compliant debian-based release
On 07/03/2013 09:17 PM, Svante Signell wrote: The interesting thing is not when Linus used the GPL license the first time, it was v2 by then. Of crucial interest is when Linus changed from v2 or later to v2 only. And looking at the source code, e.g. 3.9.8, a very lot of files are still v2+, not v2 only. That's a very big difference. I still don't get the point. Isn't there way more important stuff to do? Like these, for example: http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/ Or these: http://udd.debian.org/bugs.cgi Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51d47acf.20...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Plan to release a gplv3 compliant debian-based release
On 07/05/2013 12:58 AM, Jakub Wilk wrote: * David Weinehall , 2013-07-04, 16:36: http://lkml.org/lkml/2006/1/25/273 http://lkml.org/lkml/2006/1/30/100 Could you be a bit more elaborate please? I don't think we should just spam this list by just sending mails containing URLs only. If you want to express your opinion, please say something. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51d6006b.6030...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Plan to release a gplv3 compliant debian-based release
On 07/05/2013 02:07 PM, David Weinehall wrote: So, that's Linus's stand on whether or not a GPLv3 kernel is feasible. I hope this totally pointless thread can die now. Thanks for extracting the relevant parts. I guess I was just way too tired yesterday to start diving into the posting on LKML :). A GPLv3 only Debian distribution is, in my opinion, about as useful as lobotomy performed with a bazooka. I chuckled :D. And I fully agree. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51d6b996.4000...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports
On 07/13/2013 11:46 PM, Michael Stapelberg wrote: since some people might not read planet debian, here is a link to my third blog post in a series of posts dealing with the results of the Debian systemd survey: http://people.debian.org/~stapelberg/2013/07/13/systemd-not-portable.html This has risen a question here: How many people are actually using the kFreeBSD port. Are there any rough numbers? I have checked popcon for the kFreeBSD kernel image and it seems the numbers from popcon are very low [1]. Adrian > [1] http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=kfreebsd-9 -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e1d041.8090...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports
On 07/14/2013 06:45 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: These aren't the only viable option and you know it. FYI, OpenRC port to Debian is doing well, and it is already able to boot a Debian system with current init script unmodified. Remaining to do: - support for update-rc.d - support for invoke-rc.d - finish the init.d script compatibility (not much remaining to do) - make it work with an unmodified /etc/inittab - add support for X-Start-Before (that might be the hardest part) OpenRC has already been discussed for Debian for over a year, it's still not fully ported and working, yet you claim the port is doing well. Are you seriously expecting anyone to use such a patch work on a productive machine? These issues are fixable, and I have a good hope that it will happen before the end of the GSoC project. And there's also upstart as a quite realistic option too. The difference is, however, systemd is already there, has matured and a strong upstream community. Why should we settle for something which doesn't even have a foreseeable future of upstream maintainership? You also wrote more or less that systemd is the only way to support cgroups, while this is untrue. OpenRC at least has support for it (and probably upstart too? I'm not sure...), and it also builds on FreeBSD (not yet Debian kFreeBSD, but that also should be easy to fix). The argument that to support modern things like cgroups, an init system has to be incompatible with anything else than Linux is just simply false. upstart is (or is going to use) the prctl Linux system call and therefore no longer compatible with non-Linux kernels. Adrian > [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/RaringUpstartUserSessions#Respawning_user_jobs_and_PID_tracking -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e267f3.8060...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports
On 07/14/2013 01:09 PM, David Kalnischkies wrote: At least I am seriously expecting that Debian isn't discarding the outcome of a project it has officially endorsed to be under its umbrella for GSoC without even the slightest bit of consideration. I didn't know that someone is working on OpenRC under the umbrella of GSoC. Don't make any assumptions, please. GSoC in Debian was announced a long time ago, enough time to raise any objections against any proposed project. Either this wasn't done or it wasn't done loud enough as the OpenRC project was accepted and is now being worked on by a student, so its too late to voice any concerns now as this is just slapping the student right across the face. Its at least nothing I would do while trying to hook a student to continue working in/on Debian even long after a specific project is done (and GSoC ended). Well, if I had known it, I'd have voted against it. And, I am sorry, but just because a GSoC student is working on OpenRC in Debian doesn't make it any more appealing or sensible in my eyes. If we made decisions based on this fact, Hurd would have to be a release kernel by now. Feel free to evaluate (any project) after it is finished and draw your conclusions from that (for the specific project, GSoC in general, …), but don't complaining about it without even trying. As I said before, this whole OpenRC in Debian has been announced almost over a year ago, yet there isn't any fully working implementation while systemd is already in production use. Last I heard, that was exactly systemd fanbase complain: that everyone just complained without even trying it based on hearsay. So, lets try "leading by example", shall we? There is no systemd fanbase. I am not favoring systemd because I like Lennart or because I think the name is cool, but because systemd is objectively the far superior solution developed by experienced developers. Debian isn't a toy project, it's supposed to be used on production systems. These issues are fixable, and I have a good hope that it will happen before the end of the GSoC project. And there's also upstart as a quite realistic option too. The difference is, however, systemd is already there […] It is not "already there". That was the whole freaking point of this "survey". You can install and use it. It's unfortunately just horribly outdated in Debian for whatever reason I still don't know of. There is still enough time for anythings fanbase to bash each other. Just avoid beating new contributors in the process who might not have developed a thick enough skin just yet. Could you please leave the "fan base" accusations out of here? I am not a fan, I don't care about what init system we are using as long it's the best solution. David Kalnischkies, who couldn't care less about init systems^W^W"System and Service Managers" so try to avoid putting him in some fanbase camp please. You don't sound like you're not biased, however. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e29baa.5010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: openrc packaging status (Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports)
On 07/15/2013 01:37 PM, heroxbd wrote: I can visualize that within two months we will have a off-the-shelf OpenRC package working with initscripts/sysvinit vanilla offering modern features like cgroups, at users' choice. Good, I'll take your word on that. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e3eb73.1090...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports
On 07/15/2013 03:00 PM, The Wanderer wrote: My personal objections to systemd come down to the fact that I don't trust its developers /maintainers. Part of that is bleedover from the fact that I've so far had only poor experiences with pulseaudio I haven't had any problems with PulseAudio for ages. PulseAudio is installed by default by all major distributions and I have had heard little to no complaints ever since it has matured. Some older versions prior 1.0.x were broken or had exposed bugs in ALSA drivers which needed to be fixed. These days, however, PulseAudio is rock-stable. It usually breaks only for people who tinker too much with it without understanding the concept behind it. (and have heard several negative reviews of it not purely based on user experience, mostly summing up to "why did they start a new audio system from scratch instead of adding the missing capabilities on to JACK?"), Because JACK and PulseAudio target completely different audiences. JACK is designed for professional audio and is usually an overkill for most desktop users. No one, including the PA developers, ever claimed that PulseAudio is a replacement for JACK. but most of it hangs from the discussion I once read in which Lennart expressed - and, when objections were raised to it, reiterated - the desire to eventually drop support for using udev without systemd. While this is still not the case, I don't really see why this shouldn't be done. udev is Linux-only and so is systemd and neither of them will probably ever ported to non-Linux kernels. That attitude as a whole, in fact, is the major offputting thing about the entire systemd-et-al. project(s) from my perspective; it reminds me of proprietarianism, and a little bit of "embrace, extend, extinguish", and I very much want to avoid lock-in. Which can be a good thing, sometimes, since it simplifies work for other developers whose software builds on top of the kernel plumberland when they know which software to expect on the target system. I actually *like* most of what I've read about systemd's capabilities, performance, and behavior, as compared to at least sysvinit; I'm even reasonably willing to accept that it's superior to the other alternative init systems in those regards. I'm just not at all sure that those improved capabilities, performance, and behavior are enough of a benefit to be worth the trade-off of being essentially at the mercy of developers whose philosophies and attitudes I find so strongly objectionable. systemd has many independent developers and contributors. I don't think we're at the mercy of a small group of people when using it. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e3fc84.6030...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports
On 07/15/2013 07:11 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: Not sure where this idea comes from. upstart has never supported non-Linux kernels; we're open to it being ported to other kernels, but prctl is a minor detail for kernel compatibility compared with other, more significant features that upstart relies on. I am pretty sure you wrote it yourself in [1]: "By making use of a Linux-specific prctl(2) call, we effectively tie Upstart to systems running with a Linux kernel. This is a major restriction, but porting to other systems is already complicated by the fact that even the BSDs do not provide a full POSIX environment (missing "waitid(2)" for example)." Cheers, Adrian > [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/RaringUpstartUserSessions#Disadvantages -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e435e6.5010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports
On 07/15/2013 06:54 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: People aren't bothered by OpenRC because it might win, they're bothered because its advocates fail to understand why they've > already lost before they've begun. I fully agree on this with you! I cannot really imagine OpenRC to be ever a viable alternative to systemd (or even upstart). It just lacks too much behind and would be a minor improvement over System V Init only. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e43670.1010...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Systemd support in Debian packages: how to help
On 07/15/2013 09:39 PM, Michael Stapelberg wrote: http://people.debian.org/~stapelberg/2013/07/14/systemd-how-to-help.html Thanks for the guidelines and the idea to coordinate future work! This actually leads me to something I have been wondering for some time: Are there already plans to update systemd in Debian? I am eagerly waiting to try one of the recent versions of systemd, especially since I am having trouble with remote filessystems which Lennart claims to have been remedied in later versions of systemd. Cheers, Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e455e5.50...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports
On 07/15/2013 09:50 PM, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: How much of that improvement would be realised if we added a dependable, declarative (i.e. config-based instead of shell-script-based) service configuration support to sysvinit ? You can't trivially add these features to sysvinit without fundamentally rewriting it. systemd uses many modern Linux kernel features and system calls which means you would have to use these features in a rewritten sysvinit as well to be able to provide the reliability and features of systemd which means you'd loose the portability again. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e457ce.8050...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Systemd support in Debian packages: how to help
On 07/16/2013 01:03 AM, Michael Biebl wrote: Sorry that this takes a bit longer then expected, but packages based on v204 are in preparation and expect them soonish. Thanks for the update! Rock on! :) Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e48e2d.3040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: PulseAudio
On 07/17/2013 09:26 AM, Marc Haber wrote: Where are the end-user docs that explain the concept? Was that a troll question? Just use your favorite search engine. > http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documentation/ > http://freedesktop.org/software/pulseaudio/doxygen/ PA also has excellent support on their IRC channels. I have been able to solve any problem I had with it so far and in all cases it turned out to be a user error. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e654a1.2020...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports
On 07/17/2013 09:24 AM, Marc Haber wrote: On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:09:20 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: What I find rude is that a minority of idiots is taking the project hostage of their ridiculous demands, preventing a quick switch to a decent init systems, for reasons that are anything but technical. Once more, I find your wording utterly offensive and thus inacceptable. This is not helping. You are doing harm to your causes. I think Joss was just responding to the other guy who claimed that everyone who needs advanced features in a init daemon to manage their systems is an idiot. I understood it as a form of sarcasm. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e653c3.5050...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: PulseAudio
On 07/17/2013 10:48 AM, Wouter Verhelst wrote: So have I, with alsa. Mainly because I've never had any problem with alsa beyond "my hardware is shiny new and the driver hasn't been written yet". Okay, and there was also this one time where I wanted to figure out how you enable analog 5.1 surround sound. I've never been able to do that with PulseAudio, mind you. Alsa is a completely different layer in the sound stack. It doesn't even make sense to compare these two. PulseAudio piles another layer of possible failures on top of a kernel driver, and hides most of the audio mixer for no particularly good reason other than "it might confuse the poor user". It just doesn't make any sense to me. Some sound cards expose two dozens or more level adjustments which most people don't even understand. I don't think it's a bad idea in general to clean that up and make the whole interface more consistent and easier to understand. Also, your sound setup probably just consists of one sound card in your desktop/laptop PC which sure enough works just fine with only Alsa. However, if you have more than one sound device, PulseAudio is a blessing. For example, my video card has an HDMI output. When I hook up my PC to my television via HDMI, I want the sound from VLC to go through HDMI rather than through my sound card. It's a matter of opening a preferences pane, change the output device to HDMI and I am done. How do I do that with just plain Alsa without using a text editor? What do I do when I want my Skype input going through the USB webcam's microphone and the audio of Skype through my bluetooth headset instead of my primary sound card? I am sorry, but in my eyes, people who claim that PulseAudio is useless simply don't realize that there can be sound setups which are a little more sophisticated than just a single sound card and configuring these can be PITA when you don't have PA. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e65cc9.3040...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: PulseAudio
On 07/17/2013 11:09 AM, Samuel Thibault wrote: That these setups exist is completely fine. That the additional PulseAudio layer is being imposed even on systems that have a single sound card, is not. Unless your PC was made in 1995, I am pretty sure it has one of these "advanced" setups. Secondly, I am not seeing PA imposed onto anyone, it's just the default setup as it's the sensible choice for installation on a modern desktop. If you don't like it, uninstall it. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e66041.9060...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: PulseAudio
On 07/17/2013 05:40 PM, Marc Haber wrote: On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:58:49 +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: Some sound cards expose two dozens or more ... usually underdocumented, if documented at all, ... The Fedora people had a very nice screen shot of the ALSA mixer back then which said more than a 1000 words: > http://people.redhat.com/alexl/files/why-alsa-sucks.png :) Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e6c131.7060...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Survey answers part 3: systemd is not portable and what this means for our ports
On 07/17/2013 05:38 PM, Marc Haber wrote: I would not have posted if that had been the first time I found Joss' advocacy offensive. It is, however, a repeated pattern. From which I would infer you shouldn't take it as a personal offense. He usually has a point, even though he is exaggerating sometimes. At least he isn't swearing as bad as Linus [1] ;). And, really, you shouldn't take that too serious. Adrian > [1] https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/13/132 -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e6c077.8020...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: PulseAudio
On 07/17/2013 09:26 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:58:49AM +0200, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: I am sorry, but in my eyes, people who claim that PulseAudio is useless simply don't realize that there can be sound setups which are a little more sophisticated than just a single sound card and configuring these can be PITA when you don't have PA. I certainly wouldn't claim that PulseAudio is useless - I quite appreciate its features for desktop control of managing multiple sound inputs/outputs, precisely for the reasons mentioned in this thread - but "once bitten, twice shy". I don't want to point fingers here, but there is a distribution with a parent company in South Africa which is infamous for adopting upstream new upstream projects before they have matured. Be it PulseAudio or KDE 4.0. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51e6f248.4070...@physik.fu-berlin.de
