Anti Open Source Psyops / "Mind Tweakers"? (they'll never believe we're really aliens dept)

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

Happy un-halloween.  The truth is out there -- apt-get into it, local
shadow repositories potentially excepted.

There _are_ organized groups of individuals who are actively attempting
to dismantle or disrupt LUG's, and to discourage Linux advocates.  They
may attempt to discourage LUG's from formally organizing like Debian
has.  They might say that you have to be mind-crazy if you believe any
of this message!  They may claim that I am insane for sending it!  It
will undoubtedly be flamed and "debunked" by "reputable linux
advocates"!  Be wary of "wolves in sheeps clothing", misdirection, and
"red herrings".  If you don't have anything productive to add, then
don't say anything at all.

They might try to make you quit using or supporting Free Software, OSS,
and Debian GNU. They might use sneaky, subtle, and insinuating psyops
tactics, mental / psychic / emotional harrassment.  They might try to
make you smoke, drink (in the Red Hat district perhaps?  Isn't that a
smoking spy with a secret NDA?), use too much caffeine, not exercise.  

They might try to ruin your reputation in any way they can.  They might
harrass you and try to prevent you from getting your work done.  They
might cause you to waste your time with petty squabbling, a barrage of
insults and put-downs, immature insecure one-upmanship head games,
"you're such a loser" "do things my way" _badmouthing_, _bully-talk_,
emotional tweaking, political manurviring, psycho-social posturing /
posing and chest thumping.  Whether it "pays the bills" is a big issue
with some of these annoying pocket slappers.

They might look for any way to _try_ and stop you from working on or
using OSS; to prove you are a danger to their way of life...

"Just think how big of a threat to them we must be in their eyes, to
inspire these jealous displays of rivalrous politicing!" -- Anon Muse

They may edit what you really say to make it seem as though you said the
opposite, and they might get away with it, if there is nobody to stop
them or call them out on it.  Some will be ready with the snide
put-downs and shut-ups, and others with the bureaucratic pigeon-hole
pocket slapping paper-mill coal-plant gas-$tation shuffle.

Think about it.  You might be next!  They will try to make you believe
that what is said in this message cannot be reality.  You may think this
is a joke eMail, but it is not.  It resembles reality in some regard --
you must admit it.

That's a target on your back.  

http://www.teahouseofdanger.com/dti/html/WOORRDS/words_3.html
http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm205362.html
http://mediafilter.org/MFF/USDCO.PsyWar.html
http://www.greenpanthers.org/psychological-warfare.html

Just because they've classified you as paranoid doesn't mean they're not
really out to get you.

There are "head hunters" and there are head hunters.

Word of the day:  Opportunistic Silentism

RFC Search engine in development

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

I've got a good start on an RFC search engine.  Try it out at:

 http://www.pdxlinux.org/search.html

... and find the code at:

 http://www.hegbloom.net:3006/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/?root=Perl

The modules to look at are Swish.pm, RFC.pm, and the RFC/ directory.  It
needs to be completed and turned into an installable Debian package. 
The search part does not define the presentation.  It returns a list of
Perl hash data structures, so that the client code can present that any
way it likes.  This means that it can be used by a command line tool,
perhaps called from inside emacs, or from a web front end like the one
on pdxlinux.org, which is done using HTML::Mason.

What do you think?  Can you figure out my code?  Need a tour?  Are you a
Perl programmer?  I hope to find some time for completing this, but if
yous want to work on it, go for it; just let me know so we can
coordinate.

-- 
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FYI: www.infrastructures.org

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

http://www.infrastructures.org/papers/bootstrap/bootstrap.html
-- 
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Oracle installer?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

Has anyone created an Oracle 9i installer?

My orphaned packages.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 [ CC me in replies; I am not subscribed right now. ]

 I do not have time anymore to work on the packages I once maintained
 for Debian.  I'm sorry that I did not properly orphan them.  I just
 don't have time for it.  My health is most important, followed by
 studies.  I cannot live in a chair anymore, and I have to spend my
 computer time working on homework assignments and reading.

 `scsh' ought to be taken over by someone who actually uses it.  I've
 not even looked at it in over a year.

 I've got some work begun on packaging XEmacs-21.2.  It should be
 looked over by anyone interested in continuing it.

 Perhaps after college I will take up some packages again.

 Time to go for a run, then hook on down to the gym for a workout.
 (Pre-vailing.)


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Scsh (Was: Re: My orphaned packages.)

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel Kobras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

    Daniel> On 10 Sep 2000, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>> `scsh' ought to be taken over by someone who actually uses it.  I've
>> not even looked at it in over a year.

Daniel> If nobody objects I'd like to do this together with Martin
Daniel> Gasbichler who wrote a fair part of scsh 0.6. But me
Daniel> having just applied for Debian maintainership this will
Daniel> take some time...

 I also have an adoption offer from Georg Bauer (Cc'd), who I
 responded to on the attached message, telling him that if he contacts
 the new maintainer team and has a working `scsh' package, he can have
 it.

 Since you are teaming with Martin Gasbichler, and since Martin is a
 co-author of Scsh, I'd say that puts you two in as most qualified to
 handle the package.  (Daniel?  Please forward this mail to Martin.)

 Perhaps the three of you could team?  What do you all think?


8<--->8
From: Georg Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Bug#71265: Documentation for scsh not in /usr/share/doc
To: "Karl M. Hegbloom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
gb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:26:42 +0200

Hi!

On 10 Sep 2000 11:26:13 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M.
Hegbloom) wrote:

> Ok.  I sure wish someone would take over `scsh'.  I've not got time
> for it anymore.

I am not a debian developer currently, but I would step up if some
maintainer is needed. scsh is quite cool and I once created my own package
for it (yours wasn't available at that time). I am not that new on debian
packages, as I have my own repository for (mostly hack) packages for my own
use (http://www.gws-online.de/download/), so I think I could handle it.

I didn't keep up with debian developments in the political area, so I am not
quite sure about what would be needed to be done be me to step up, but your
best way out might be to help me in ;-)


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Re: Scsh (Was: Re: My orphaned packages.)

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel Kobras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

    Daniel> On 11 Sep 2000, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>> >>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel Kobras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> 
Daniel> On 10 Sep 2000, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>> >> `scsh' ought to be taken over by someone who actually uses it.  I've
>> >> not even looked at it in over a year.
>> 
Daniel> If nobody objects I'd like to do this together with Martin
Daniel> Gasbichler who wrote a fair part of scsh 0.6. But me
Daniel> having just applied for Debian maintainership this will
Daniel> take some time...
>> 
>> I also have an adoption offer from Georg Bauer (Cc'd), who I
>> responded to on the attached message, telling him that if he contacts
>> the new maintainer team and has a working `scsh' package, he can have
>> it.
>> 
>> Since you are teaming with Martin Gasbichler, and since Martin is a
>> co-author of Scsh, I'd say that puts you two in as most qualified to
>> handle the package.  (Daniel?  Please forward this mail to Martin.)
>> 
>> Perhaps the three of you could team?  What do you all think?

Daniel> Sounds good to me. Martin is on vacation for a couple of days but 
I'm sure
Daniel> we can work out a scheme everyone's confident with as soon as he's
Daniel> back. The big problem IMHO however being that neither of us is 
registered
Daniel> as a developer so far. I'd be happy to work on debs for a recent 
version
Daniel> of scsh but we'd really need some maintainer to adopt the package 
until my
Daniel> appliance gets through.

 Georg Bauer wrote back saying that he thinks you and Martin are more
 qualified, and thus should maintain the Scsh package.

 What stage of the new maintainer process are you in?

 Do you have working packages of Scsh done yet?  Perhaps I can look
 them over and upload them for you.


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Re: Location of -doc documentation?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Joey" == Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Joey> Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:

>> I just noticed that `apache-doc' puts the documentation under
>> "http://.../doc/apache";, while `debconf-doc' puts it under
>> "http://.../debconf-doc/";. 

Joey> Eh? (Debconf-doc is a package, that contains some documentation files.
Joey> It doesn't touch the web space at all.)

  s,/debconf-doc/,/doc/debconf-doc/,

Whos bug is this? doc/sendmail-doc/op.ps.gz - "Error: /invalidfont in findfont"

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

Package: ???
Version: ???
Severity: snafu

 Not sure who to report this to or how to fix it so I can read this
 manual soon.  Please advise.

Error: /invalidfont in findfont
Operand stack:
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]   --nostringval--   Times-Italic   Font   Times-Italic   
280374   Times-Italic   --nostringval--   Courier   (Courier)   Courier
Execution stack:
   %interp_exit   .runexec2   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   
--nostringval--   2   %stopped_push   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   
--nostringval--   false   1   %stopped_push   1   3   %oparray_pop   1   3   
%oparray_pop   .runexec2   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   --nostringval--  
 2   %stopped_push   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   3   4   %oparray_pop   
4   4   %oparray_pop   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   
--nostringval--   --nostringval--   false   1   %stopped_push   7   5   
%oparray_pop   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   --nostringval--   
--nostringval--
Dictionary stack:
   --dict:996/1476(ro)(G)--   --dict:0/20(G)--   --dict:67/200(L)--   
--dict:54/120(L)--   --dict:17/17(ro)(G)--   --dict:996/1476(ro)(G)--
Current allocation mode is local
Last OS error: 2
AFPL Ghostscript 6.50: Unrecoverable error, exit code 1

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unable to stat `./usr/share/man/man3/qcanvas.3qt.gz' (which I was about to install): Value too large for defined data type

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 Not sure what to do here.  Please advise...  I will "fsck" it, but
 want to send this off before bringing my machine down, just in case.

Preparing to replace qt3-doc 2:3.0.0-0beta4-1 (using 
.../qt3-doc_2%3a3.0.0-0beta4-2_all.deb) ...
Document `qt3-doc' is not installed, cannot remove.
Unpacking replacement qt3-doc ...
dpkg: error processing 
/var/cache/apt/archives/qt3-doc_2%3a3.0.0-0beta4-2_all.deb (--unpack):
 unable to stat `./usr/share/man/man3/qcanvas.3qt.gz' (which I was about to 
install): Value too large for defined data type
dpkg-deb: subprocess paste killed by signal (Broken pipe)

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~
# stat /usr/share/man/man3/qcanvas.3qt.gz
  File: "/usr/share/man/man3/qcanvas.3qt.gz"
  Size: 6970Blocks: 16 IO Block: 4096   Regular File
Device: 303h/771d   Inode: 657294  Links: 1
Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--)  Uid: (0/root)   Gid: (0/root)
Access: Sun Sep  9 06:54:22 2001
Modify: Thu Aug 23 11:14:13 2001
Change: Sun Sep  2 00:37:51 2001

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~
% ls -l /usr/share/man/man3/qcanvas.3qt.gz
-rw-r--r--1 root root 16787680395758934842 Aug 23 11:14 
/usr/share/man/man3/qcanvas.3qt.gz

 Wow, huh!?  WTF?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~
% df -h /usr/share/man/man3/
FilesystemSize  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/hda3  27G   20G  7.6G  72% /


 "mount" shows:

 /dev/hda3 on / type reiserfs (rw)

Linux bittersweet 2.4.9vp6 #1 SMP Sun Sep 2 14:47:13 PDT 2001 i686 unknown

Re: An alarming trend (no it's not flaimbait.)

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 If a package has gotten very stale, and nobody has taken up
 maintainence, isn't that a pretty good indication that nobody is
 using it anyhow?

 What about taking packages like that and removing the binary .deb,
 but leave the last source package in the archive...  there should be
 a way through some interface such as "aptitude" or a web page to find
 it by searching, perhaps.  But this only for software deemed worth a
 read of the source code or potentially useful in real life.

 We must admit: there is plenty of cruft in the archive.  A lot of
 stuff nobody really uses.

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no space left on device: LVM, Gnus --> dpkg, apt-get ?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I'm using LVM and XFS filesystems on my computer at home.  This
 morning, after I pushed "g" from the Gnus *Group* buffer (to get new
 mail), it stopped part way through with an error message.  Gnus
 prompted me in the XEmacs minibuffer saying "no space left on device:
 Continue (yes, no)?".  My 10g "/home" logical volume had filled up.

 I opened a root console, used "lvextend" to add a few spare gigs to
 my "/home" LV, then ran "xfs_growfs" to grow it's filesystem into the
 new space.

 I then went back to XEmacs, typed "yes" to the question, and watched
 while it happily finished tossing all of my mail into folders.  It is
 actually coded in such a way that it can gracefully deal with this
 situation!  (Had I said "no" there, it would have left my mail in the
 crashbox, safe and sound.)

 Wow, now that's really cool.  What I'm wondering is, can "apt-get",
 "dpkg", and friends recover this easily from a device overflow?  Was
 that thought of during their design and implementation?  If it needs
 a little more space in "/var" or "/usr", can it notice that before
 filling the block device, and prompt me about it, so I can make some
 room somehow?  (either by removing files, dpkg --purging something,
 or using the LVM tools to extend the logical volume and then the
 filesystem utility to grow the filesystem.)

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Re: Debian.rpm

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I think you can probably boot to it with a carefully crafted initrd
 that performs a pivot_root into the debootstrapped chroot.  Or,
 perhaps you could run a UML kernel there?  Has anyone tried that?

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Re: Debian.rpm

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Russell" == Russell Coker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Russell> On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 00:27, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:

>> I think you can probably boot to it with a carefully crafted
>> initrd that performs a pivot_root into the debootstrapped
>> chroot.

Russell> I believe that pivot_root only works on mounted file
Russell> systems, so unless your chroot environment is at the root
Russell> directory of a different file system that won't work.

 Hmm.  You are probably right.

Russell> Why not use busybox-static to move the directories
Russell> around?

 If you try this, be aware that the "cp" in Busybox 0.60 does NOT
 preserve hard links.  (It used to; the one used by the potato boot
 floppies when they were first released did - I know because I coded
 it.  They've changed the implementation of cp again.)  If you use
 Busybox to perform recursive copy, use "busybox tar" since it DOES
 preserve hard links.  (I checked the source to be certain.)

>> Or, perhaps you could run a UML kernel there?  Has anyone tried
>> that?

Russell> That's not as much fun.  We want to totally replace the
Russell> old system...

 Right.  But for development or trial purposes, a UML setup might be
 kind of nice to have.

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IBM "Key alliances" ?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 http://www-1.ibm.com/linux/>

 On the right is a panel listing "Key Alliances".  Why are we not
 listed?  It would be a good thing for Debian to ally with IBM,
 wouldn't it?  If I had a job as a system admin at an IBM shop, I'd
 much prefer to use Debian than RH.

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Re: apt-get reinstall all

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Robin" == Robin Putters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> 
>> btw: I really like apt & that's why I try to help you make it better, :)
>> 

Robin> Who doesn't like it ? :)

 The competition?

 Have you ever seen that silly perl script that Mandrake passes as an
 "apt like" package fetcher + installer?  "urpmi".  Hahah.

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Re: Debian.rpm

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Tollef" == Tollef Fog Heen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Tollef> * Wichert Akkerman 
Tollef> | Previously David B Harris wrote:
Tollef> | > Well, what you're suggesting isn't really feasible ;)
Tollef> | 
Tollef> | Someone actually did this a couple of years ago so it is feasible.

Tollef> Run-time upgrading from RH to Debian is very much feasible
Tollef> and very, very cool.  No reboot required, even.

 How did you do it?  Is the process documented anyplace??

Tollef> It was a bit scary doing it to my home system which will
Tollef> only boot from the hard drive, no floppy, and won't boot
Tollef> from the cdrom, though. :)

 Sounds as scary as my recent migration to XFS + LVM + GRUB.

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Re: Debian.rpm

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Wichert" == Wichert Akkerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Wichert> Previously David B Harris wrote:
>> Well, I'm kind of thinking he meant an automated procedure.

Wichert> So did I. Someone made a rpm package that you could install with
Wichert> rpm and it would convert a RedHat system into a Debian system. It
Wichert> only handled the base system and left the rest unchanged, but it
Wichert> did work.

Wichert> I suspect you might still find that package with a bit of
Wichert> google searching.

 Wichert, can you give us a hint, please?  What keywords?

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Re: LVM + XFS/Ext3 (Was no space left on device: LVM, Gnus --> dpkg, apt-get ?)

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Tille  writes:

    Andreas> On 4 Jan 2002, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>> I'm using LVM and XFS filesystems on my computer at home.  This
>> morning, after I pushed "g" from the Gnus *Group* buffer (to get new
>> mail), it stopped part way through with an error message.  Gnus
>> prompted me in the XEmacs minibuffer saying "no space left on device:
>> Continue (yes, no)?".  My 10g "/home" logical volume had filled up.
>> 
>> I opened a root console, used "lvextend" to add a few spare gigs to
>> my "/home" LV, then ran "xfs_growfs" to grow it's filesystem into the
>> new space.

 I have not tried yet, but am planning to experiment and see if it is
 possible to *shrink* an XFS filesystem.  In the case where I have one
 LV that's larger than it needed to be, I'd like to be able to shrink
 the filesystem then shrink the LV.  Anyone know if that is possible?
 If it's not, it should be!

Andreas> I just installed my new 80GB disk using LVM.  I found out
Andreas> that it is not possible to include even /boot and /
Andreas> partition into LVM if you want to use grub, but this is
Andreas> no real problem (even if it would be nice).

 Right.  I went with:

 part1 500m  Linux  /  (XFS)
 part2 1024m Swap
 part3 the rest  LVM/usr   (XFS)
/home
/var
/usr/local
/usr/local/src

Andreas> I decided to use ext3 file systems in the LVM partitions
Andreas> and I wonder if there is something like xfs_growfs for
Andreas> ext[23].  Not that I would need it currently but just in
Andreas> case it is better to know now and to switch to XFS at
Andreas> this moment than later if it is not possible.

 I recently read "Linux File Systems", by Moshe Bar (author of Linux
 Internals), Osbourne McGraw Hill, ISBN-0-07-212955-7.  I also read
 "Journal File Systems", Linux Gazette #55,
 http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue55/florido.html>, and some of
 the whitepapers I found at http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/>.

 I am very convinced that XFS is the *best* filesystem for Linux.  It
 is way better than ext3fs for many reasons.  From what I gather, it
 is also superiour to IBM's JFS, and certainly superiour to Reiserfs.

 I've had no trouble with it so far.  I've been told that it is
 incompatible with LILO; that it starts the filesystem at offset 0
 rather than offset 512 like other filesystems?  I have not confirmed
 this yet.  Anyone know?  It works great with GRUB.

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Re: no space left on device: LVM, Gnus --> dpkg, apt-get ?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Adrian> On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Egon Willighagen wrote:
>> ...
>> That makes me wonder: is it possible that i am imagening things, and 
that the
>> upgrade went well, even though my HD was full? Did it actually install 
files
>> then, or did it not overwrite, because of the HD being full, and my 
files are
>> basically not upgraded, but just the version numbers in the index that 
dpkg
>> uses?

Adrian> Do you mean with "my HD was full" that "df" says that it's used 
100% ?
Adrian> If yes then your HD isn't physically full, usually 5% of the blocks 
in a
Adrian> partition are reserved - this means they aren't counted when "df"
Adrian> estimates how many space is free on the device and only root can 
write to
Adrian> the device if not more than the number of reserved blocks are free. 
Since
Adrian> you did run dpkg as root you can write additional files to the 
partition
Adrian> even though the partition is full.

 If I understand correctly, this is filesystem implementation
 dependant.  It is certainly true for ext{2,3}fs.  What about the
 others, I wonder?  This should be looked into, and perhaps documented
 in a paragraph of "man mkfs".

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Don't let em make ya quit.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

http://www.crn.com/sections/BreakingNews/dailyarchives.asp?ArticleID=32424>

 No matter how ugly they get, don't become what you most hate.  Let's
 win this fair and square, folks.  And we will win, we have superiour
 technology and all the source code... but that's what they'll say.

 Build on strength.  Not strong coffee; strength.  Strength of body,
 mind and character.  Don't let them make you eat shit.


http://www.relfe.com/caffeine.html>
http://www.runnersworld.com/>
http://www.24hourfitness.com/>

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Installing things into run-parts or .d directories.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

What if a package is installed, and puts a script in a run-parts
directory or into a .d directory, but isn't configured due to a
missing dependancy?  The newbie "sysadmin" doesn't know to look for
it, and leaves it there, then gets email from cron.  Per sends off a
tech support question.

This could be prevented by having a place (/etc/cron.scripts, or
/etc/cron.d/crontabs) to install things to, then require that the
postinst create a symlink during configuration.

Hmmm...
/etc/crontabs
/etc/crontabs/crontab
/etc/crontabs/cron.d/
/etc/crontabs/pkg_blah_script
...

Re: Corel Setup Design Proposal

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Andreas" == Andreas Jellinghaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> I think this is a very difficult point, how do you plan to
>> solve this, choose the right Xserver and XF86Config file for
>> the users system ? Or do you plan to use the fbdev server ? i
>> think not yet all graphic cards have video servers ...

Andreas> pretty easy: every recent graphic card is pci or agp, so
Andreas> it's detected as pci device and listed in the /proc
Andreas> file...

Andreas> a list device -> xfree options/server/driver should be
Andreas> easy to build (with the combined help of usenet).

 Hmmm... someone could set up an SQL database, and use that to enter
 the information.  Then a table for the distributed setup software to
 read could be generated by a formatted select query on that database.

Re: Setup API, The next step (Re: Corel Setup Design Proposal)

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Dave" == Dave Neil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Dave> Hi Everyone, There does not seem to be any objections to the
Dave> initial proposal of doing a setup API and perhaps rethinking
Dave> how we do an install.  Would it be possible to come to a
Dave> consensus on this and decide if it's worth pursuing as a
Dave> joint project together?

 It's obviously worth pursuing.  The Linux distribution developer
 community needs this.

Dave> Here's an idea for a time table.  1.For Potato i386 we work
Dave> together support an X install and the new setup API
Dave> system. Perhaps a joint GTK based install GUI if it would
Dave> help move this forward.

 The setup API ought to be specified with something that can be used
 to generate stubs for both GTK and KDE.  There ought to be an
 underlevel that's in a library of its own, with calls designed for a
 user interface to utilize as a backend.  Maybe that backend code
 could run in separate threads, so the UI can stay fresh and display
 status information?  (I'll try and keep that sort of thing in the
 back of my mind while I read.  I've begun to read about C++ and OOP.)

 (KDE/QT and Gnome/GTK+ ought to get their heads together and specify
 a standard way of propagating style or theme information and whatnot.
 Do I stand alone on this one?  Am I way off base?)

 I've only a vague notion of this sort of system at this point... as
 I've been saying lately, ask me again in two years.  I'll shut up
 now. :-|

Dave> 3.We help with the dselect replacement, perhaps starting
Dave> with work based around gnome-apt.

 I liked the idea of a common `thing' that could be driven by a UI
 running with either X (pick your GUI toolkit of choice), curses,
 CGI/WWW or perhaps even an automated thing, like Red Hat's
 `kickstart'.

 What ever happened to `deity'?  I thought it was pretty neat.  Like
 the emacsen and xwpe, it ran on both X and a console or xterm.  Not
 too shabby, IMO.  I guess if it used GGI, it would do framebuffers,
 tty, and X all from one program, isn't that right?

 What's the KDE `kpackage' like?  How does it compare to `gnome-apt'
 and `dselect'?  I've never gotten it to build.  (It bombs in the rpm
 support stuff.)

 Something I've noticed about `gnome-apt' and `apt' is that they don't
 seem to support removing and purging a package as separate things.  I 
 think it's important for the package tools to have both of those
 options available.

 If `dselect' had the filtering things that `gnome-apt' had, it would
 be very much improved!  I still like it better than `gnome-apt' for
 many reasons, in particular, for keyboard control of the interface.

Dave> We here at Corel can and will put a lot of our resources
Dave> into developing this.  My hope is that we can work together
Dave> to help Debian also benefit from this.  By keeping it
Dave> flexible in its design we should be able to make it fit into
Dave> each our own visions of how it behaves and looks.  This is
Dave> now up to you the Debian developers to decide if it's ago.

 I'll help by continuing my studies.  It's great that Corel is getting
 involved with the Debian project!  I'd like to see others here as
 well, including Red Hat software.  Corporate industry support is
 something we need, both for mentorship and potential future paying
 jobs.

 What ever happened to `Yggdrasil Plug-n-Play Linux'?  They have the
 best name for a Linux distribution out of all of them, IMO.  It's
 occured to me that perhaps "Yggdrasil" would be a better name for
 Debian than "Debian" is.

 Karl M. Hegbloom, Student, Portland State University, OR, USA

 Time to read.

Re: Corel Setup Design Proposal

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Joseph" == Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Joseph> Save yourself some pain and use slang for the console
Joseph> based installation.

 What makes `slang' a better choice than `ncurses'?

A setuid bash doesn't give up root.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

I've discovered something interesting.

# cp /bin/bash /tmp
# chmod u+s /tmp/bash

$ /tmp/bash
$ whoami
karlheg

# cp /usr/bin/zsh /tmp
# chmod u+s /tmp/zsh

$ /tmp/zsh
# whoami
root

 Perhaps we should have a policy that says all of our shells should
 follow the Bash behaviour?

Re: An 'ae' testimony

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I think we should just get rid of the `vi' link and `vi' emulation in
 ae, stick to the default setup, and have that catchall script just
 print a message saying to use `ae' rather than `vi' while using the
 rescue/setup disks.

 Perhaps a larger ramdisk image could be built and provided for rescue 
 times, with `elvis-tiny' or somesuch on it?   Can it be compiled
 against `Slang' with slang's curses emulation?

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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M. Hegbloom)
Portland, OR  USA
Debian GNU Potato Linux 2.2  AMD K6-233(@266) XEmacs-21.2beta

Re: Time to rewrite dpkg

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Marek" == Marek Habersack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Marek> * Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho said:
>> On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 03:01:12PM -0700, Aaron Van
>> Couwenberghe wrote:
>> > Polymorphism is such an obvious pillar of structured
>> > programming that I can't understand how anybody could live
>> > without it.
>> Agreed.  Too bad C++ does not support parametric
>> polymorphism too well.  Templates come close, so the hope is
>> not lost.
Marek> But the problem is that templates, nor exceptions or rtti
Marek> (which are all elements of MODERN C++ programming) don't
Marek> work well enough on the GNU platform...

 So someone should learn enough about that to implement it in the GNU
 compiler, huh.  I plan to make that my area of study... maybe if
 noone beats me to it, I'll work on that in five or six years. ;-)


-- 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M. Hegbloom)
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M. Hegbloom)
Portland, OR  USA
Debian GNU Potato Linux 2.2  AMD K6-233(@266) XEmacs-21.2beta

XEmacs21 project status.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 As I mentioned, I will be returning to work soonish... within a week
 or two.  I just verified that an anon CVS will work from "master".
 If anyone would like to have a look (please do), you can copy my
 setup from master and see it.  There's a script you'll need, ala Joey
 Hess' "sshanoncvs".  The server will stay here, and this is (right
 NOW) the current state.  Make sure you pull in the right branch. ;-)

 Was there a release while I was gone?  :-( Wish I'd been ready in
 time.

 Sorry for the unexpected hiatus, folks.  I have not been reading
 mail; I think I've gotten unsubscribed also.  I'll try and check mail 
 again in a week at least.

 Karl M. Hegbloom.
 Hoping to still be the official XEmacs maintainer.  (Even if I take
 off and go ski bum )


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Description: PGP signature

I need a job.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I need an entry level systems admin or programmer assistant job to
 pay for night school so I can get a degree.  I am willing to
 relocate for the right job.

 Karl M. Hegbloom



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Conference! Redmond?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I'd love to go to the conference.  Let's go to Redmond and infiltrate
 Microsoft, or to the Portland area and infiltrate Intel.  

 I'll hike there if I have to.  I don't mind sleeping bag
 accomodations; I'm in Portland, OR, USA.

Must hand off XEmacs21 project!

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I will not, due to circumstances beyond my control, be returning to
 work for perhaps as long as six months.  I must hand off the XEmacs
 21 project.

 On master.debian.org in ~karlheg/src/ is a tar file with TODAY's
 fresh CVS repository archived in it.  That should be installed on
 cvs.debian.org in a controlled repository... just untar it; I'm sure
 someone will know how to deal with it.  In ~karlheg/src/xemacs21 is a 
 sample checkout from it.  NOTE: there are branches in there.  Please
 look over my branch scheme.

 br_  for a branch prefix.
 br_unstable_potato is the current head of development.

 There is a source branch for upstream tracking.

 Make sure this is managed by someone very familiar with CVS.  I hope
 it's a paid position.  This is a large and time consuming project.  I
 am not willing to take it back unless someone will pay me for the
 time.

 Form a team.  Perhaps Corel has a few dollars to spend for this?

 I will be away from email starting now and until further notice.

 Please be careful with XEmacs and stay free.


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Re: installation problems

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Massimo" == Massimo Dal Zotto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Massimo> having a free day and a spare harddisk today I tried to install a 
frozen
Massimo> potato. I installed via nfs from a mirror of ftp.debian.org on a 
local server
Massimo> done yesterday. I found a number of probems which I'm now 
reporting:

 Thank you for your feedback, Massimo.

Massimo> 2) the install program doesn't ask anything about the mouse. I 
think
Massimo>that the mouse should be configured immediately after the 
keyboard
Massimo>and a gpm started immediately or after installing base.tgz.

 Adding mouse support to `dbootstrap' is major surgery.  Nothing would
 use the mouse at all during installation, so there is no need for it.
 There is really no need to paste things from one console to another
 during installation, and the widget toolkit does not support the
 mouse at this time.

Massimo> 3) having tried the installation six times I had to retype all the
Massimo>required information six times. I wonder why we can't save and 
load
Massimo>a configuration on a floppy without asking everything all the 
times.
Massimo>The same applies to many questions asked in the second part.

 Yes, I agree.  I believe that the creator of `debconf' _must_ have
 this sort of thing in mind...

Massimo> 4) the installer doesn't write any log file. If something goes 
wrong
Massimo>you don't know where to look for errors.

 I agree that it ought to log more.  Another todo on somebody's queue, I guess.

Massimo> 5) the base installation was from nfs but the second part of the
Massimo>installation doesn't have an nfs option. I had to create a mount
Massimo>point and mount manually the same location used for the base
Massimo>installation. Why can't we have an nfs install method also for
Massimo>the second part and use by default the same source used in the
Massimo>first part?

 Ok, noted.  I don't know how hard it will be to do that yet.  Anyone
 else see how it can be done?  (I'll have to look it all over again
 with an eye for doing that.  I've only been around `boot-floppies'
 for a short time.)

 I guess that `dbootstrap' ought to make notes someplace that the
 second stage installer can find it.

Massimo> 6) I had also a mirror of non-US on the local harddisk but the apt
Massimo>configurator insisted on trying to connect to non-US.debian.org
Massimo>even if I'm not on Internet. We should try to look for non-US
Massimo>at the same location of main, as happens with non-free and 
contrib,
Massimo>and only if not found there ask the location of a non-US mirror
Massimo>instead of connecting blindly to non-US.debian.org.
Massimo>Note that there is no way of specifying another non-US location
Massimo>using the provided interface. This is obviously wrong, we must
Massimo>allow the installation from a local mirror.

 I noticed this also.

Massimo> 7) the package selection has only two options: a very simple task
Massimo>selection and a the old dselect nightmare. We should have other
Massimo>intermediate methods, for example one where you can select tasks
Massimo>as in the simple method but can also select additional packages
Massimo>for each task. For example with the simple method there is no 
way
Massimo>to select sendmail instead of exim.
Massimo>Another useful option would be to have predefined packages 
profiles
Massimo>for basic machine, server, wokstation, home, development, etc.

 I would like it if `tasksel' would display the information about each
 task in a lower window, like `dselect' does; when you move the
 highlight bar with the arrows, the info window changes.  It also
 ought to open up tasks and allow choosing individual packages inside
 of them...  Machine profiles is a good idea also.  (I am way behind
 on the discussions about this sort of thing - I apologize... but I've
 so much to read other than the email.  As it is I don't read enough
 in my books; I spend too much time tinkering on the computer.)

Massimo>Most of the questions asked don't seem at all critical and can 
be
Massimo>answered by just pressing enter. Anyway I would like to be asked
Massimo>for critical questions by debconf before starting the package
Massimo>installation and after unpacking.

 Not every package has been converted to `debconf' yet.  There is not
 unlimited time available to every maintainer for doing that.  Perhaps
 there ought to be a task force working on this?  Who will buy us
 lunch and pay our DSL bills?

Massimo> 12) after having selected almost all tasks I found a system which 
is
Massimo>lacking an essential thing like gpm. As I said before mouse and 
gpm
Massimo>should be the first things configured.

 GPM is non-essential until the `dbootstrap' GUI

Re: XEmacs/GTK 21.1.11

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Joachim" == Joachim Trinkwitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Joachim> Juhapekka Tolvanen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> I fear, that it will take so much time, that we must have separately
>> packaged XEmacs/Gtk meanwhile. And I fear, that latest upstream sources
>> of XEmacs will ship with too old version of XEmacs/Gtk. Just check out,
>> how old version of Gnus and Auctex ships with latest XEmacs, if you
>> don't believe me.

Joachim> The strategy of the emacs{19|20} Debian packages, which have much 
more
Joachim> separate lisp packages, though born of need, results in much 
fresher
Joachim> modules and quicker update cycles, which would be nice to have for
Joachim> XEmacs too (never mind my english, I hope you understand what I 
mean).

Joachim> Maybe all those Debian packages like psgml, auctex, gnus etc. 
should
Joachim> be made for XEmacs too.

 I began work on this, but do not have time to finish it.  I must work
 on college instead.

 I have code in my CVS repository for packaging XEmacs 21.2, the
 current development version.  I've not finished it; It's only
 partially complete and doesn't completely work yet.  It may be
 suffering some bit rot as well; it's been a year since I did anything
 with it.

 Because of school, I will likely not have time for it until next
 summer.  If anyone out there would like to try and take over where I
 left off, let me know, and I'll set you up with my repository.

 You MUST work with the XEmacs beta team to do it right.  The debian/*
 stuff ought to be right in the repository.  The `rules' there ought
 to be set up so that Red Hat and whoever else can use them also.
 (That is why I made it modular like it is...)

 Since the XEmacs Lisp stuff is all separated out now into packages
 (in their xemacs-packages CVS repository), it should be shipped as
 debian packages also.  There's a lot of work to do there.  XEmacs has
 its own package system setup, and so there are files with package
 data in the repository.  Those should be augmented with description
 and long description, etc., to facilitate their use in
 auto-generating debian/control snippets, etc.

 There is an offlist discussion that I was CC'd on about creating a
 package setup for Emacs/XEmacs lisp...  I suggested they start a
 mailing list for it.  I've not heard anything more.


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Re: NFS lockfiles etc: alpha implementation

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> Christian Schwarz writes:

Christian> Wow! Thanks a lot for putting this library together. I
Christian> think that is what we all have waited for.

 I'm glad it's done too.

Christian>4. Someone (Karl?) should check the existing Perl
Christian> module if it is compatible to this library and adopt it
Christian> if necessary. This should be packaged up, too.

 Does anyone know how to call C functions from perl?  That would be
the best way, wouldn't it?


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Re: End of Documentation Discussion

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Christian" == Christian Schwarz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Christian> One questions remains: Is it possible to browse
Christian> "html.gz" files _without_ a CGI script with the usual
Christian> HTML browsers (Netscape, lynx)?

I used to be able to read gzipped html files with Netscape, but now it
puts up a download dialog.  I don't know how to make it able to pipe
them through gzip again.  Is it something to do with the MIME files in
/etc?


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Re: Looking for help. . .

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Cory" == Cory Hafele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Cory> I'm willing to format the whole drive if need be.

That's the right idea. :-)

 Unless you really need windows for business or something, the best
thing to do is just install Linux, and tell `fdisk' (the Linux one) to
just turn it into an ext2fs partition.

 That's what I did about 2 years ago.  I've never regretted it.

 Welcome to the Debian GNU/Linux 'volunteer fire department'!  Learn
how, and grab a package. :-)


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Re: Documentation stuff

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> Jim Pick writes:

Jim> dwww is meant to integrate the existing documentation
Jim> formats for convenience, but not replace all of them.

Jim> 2) All the documentation should be viewable via HTML if dwww
Jim> is installed - but it shouldn't be necessary to have HTML
Jim> versions of something that is already in info or man format.
Jim> If there is an HTML version that looks better, by all means
Jim> include it (if it's small, put it in the same package,
Jim> otherwise use a separate package).

 I agree.  I prefer to use Info in XEmacs to html, whenever
possible...  I think that the Info browser and TeXinfo could be
improved.  Someday I'll look at HyperTeX, and learn about that.  It
might be neat to have pop-up glossary balloons, and active URL's in
info.  If you don't use Emacs or XEmacs, you're not serious anyhow.

 I really want the glimpse searching that TkMan has, but within the
XEmacs interface.  `dwww' has it, but for some reason it does not find
as many manual entries as Tkman does for the same search.  I wonder
why?  Perhaps a generalized perl script (or pull the tcl out of tkman
that does it?) could do the search, and spit out the links for XEmacs
or dwww to parse and display?

 I'm using W3 now, so html isn't that bad an option.  I can still have
almost everything inside the editor interface that way.  I really love
having `webster-www' bound to {f2}, so I can look up a word in a
really nifty fashion.

Jim> 3) I'd recommend using something like Debiandoc-SGML for
Jim> documentation written directly for Debian.  But this should
Jim> be optional.  I like it because it will work nicely with dwww
Jim> (and without), plus it is fairly consistent, and can be
Jim> converted to multiple formats.  We discussed some nice
Jim> enhancements for it on the debian-doc mailing list which
Jim> should work quite nicely.

 It occured to me today that it would be good to have an rfc index,
too.  Maybe it would have the 's link through a cgi script
that would check for a local copy, then go get a remote one if the
local one's not around?  Perhaps it could cache them?

 I've got the doc-rfc package installed.  `dwww' might call on a
module for searching that someday, perhaps.

 Gee, maybe HTML should support alternative URL's?  The first try to
the local copy, if that's not there, then call out to a server on the
net.  There could be  style variables in the markup to set
up the base directories/servers.

Jim>  HTML shouldn't be used to replace info files shipped with
Jim> GNU software either.

 Right.  The two ideal documantation formats should coalesce and
become something better.

Jim> 4) HTML documentation, if it exists, should be gzipped.  Lynx
Jim> and Netscape can handle the compressed files, provided that
Jim> the links are straightened out using a tool like fixhrefgz.

 Can't apache do that?  I think there's a mod-rewrite that will do
what we need.  Though I suppose not everyone runs apache...  You tell
me and we'll both know.  I think it's a good idea to have a
light-weight server that can launch from xinetd.

Q: How do I get netscape to gunzip again???  It used to let me view
gzipped html, but now it won't do it.  I just tried W3, and it does
the same thing.  What's the MIME types recipe?

Jim> 5) It would be nice if Diety could install just
Jim> documentation, or just the binaries, and no documentation.

 Yes!

Jim> 6) dwww will let us serve documentation directly off of an
Jim> external site, so it would be nice to have a way of
Jim> installing the packages with no documentation at all.

 Sound's good... what about the ability to install a documentation
server on a LAN too?

Jim> 7) Cacheing - I'm going to split the cacheing in dwww into a
Jim> separate package.  That way, it should be easy to improve it,
Jim> not use it, or use something like squid instead.

 Ok here.  :-)(back to the bat book.)


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Re: End of Documentation Discussion

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "John" == John Goerzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

John> * GNU Info has an awkward interface and is difficult to
John> search.  It is also nearly impossible to print an entire
John> manual from the files in the info directory.

 Difficult to search?  Did you read its help page at all? ('?' in the
standalone version, 'h' inside one of the emacsen.)  Press 's', and
enter a search string/regexp, and *bang*, you're there.  You can call
the search function from your own lisp code too.  There's a `libc'
program for the emacsen that lets you put the cursor on a C function
or symbol, and press a few keys, and *presto*, the info is before your
eyes.  It's really cool; I'm learning faster because of it.  Having
everything in the (programmable) editor like that is very handy.

 Why print it?  :-)  If you want a printed copy, you start with the
texinfo source, and make a dvi from it.

 I think that TeXinfo is better thought out, by people with far
greater experience, than Linuxdoc SGML is.

 It can't be that hard to learn, either.  If you can write a program,
you can write texinfo.

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Re: fixhrefgz, boa

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

This is from the `boa' README.debian:

Transparent compressed file support
---
Boa supports transparent access to gzipped files and on the fly decompression
of the served html pages. No references need to be changes to .gz. If
a file with the extension .html cannot be found then boa will try to
find a file with .html.gz. If found this will be decompressed before 
serving it to the client.

Christoph Lameter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mon, 23 Dec 1996 20:27:43 -0800


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Re: fixhrefgz, boa

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> Karl M Hegbloom writes:

Karl> This is from the `boa' README.debian:

Karl> Transparent compressed file support
Karl> --- Boa supports transparent
Karl> access to gzipped files and on the fly decompression of the
Karl> served html pages. No references need to be changes to
Karl> .gz. If a file with the extension .html cannot be found then
Karl> boa will try to find a file with .html.gz. If found this
Karl> will be decompressed before serving it to the client.

Karl> Christoph Lameter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mon, 23 Dec 1996
Karl> 20:27:43 -0800

 This is not working correctly at my house.  Boa does grab the .gz
file, and serves it, when I type a URL without the .gz suffix.  But
there is no automatic decompression, and W3 says: |Passing to viewer
sun-message /tmp/url12345.html ""|.  So I think that means the MIME
type header being sent is wrong.

 Is that a problem with `boa', or `mime-support'?  Who can tell us?
It will take me a week to rtfm's.  (which are on deck anyhow.)

 If it sends it out compressed as application/x-gzip, then the browser
should pipe it through `gzip -c'.  Instead, it is asking me for a
filename to save it in, in every browser I've tried it with.

 That means that something is wrong in the "/etc/mailcap" file, right?
I've not taken the time to study out how that works yet.  Does anyone
have a recipe for fixing this problem?

 I will try re-installing the mime-support one time...  Hmmm.  Does
`gzip' install a mailcap entry???


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`boa' vs `apache', running from x?inetd.conf, mime-types, mailcap

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

. Texinfo->HTML is optimal. Emacs fans can use the
Fernando> w3 mode for viewing texinfo files. Or they can install
Fernando> info and use the info mode if they want. For other
Fernando> people, just texinfo is enough.

 You don't know what you're talking about, IMO.  I suggest you read
the help and tutorial for using `info'.  The interface is *not*
"crappy".  It is very powerful.  Sometimes the keys seem a little odd;
they work on any keyboard ever invented though.  It is much more
powerful than lynx or any web browser viewing html.  I'll bet that
info is less resource-intensive as well, being preformatted.

 Preformatted, searchable, hyperlinked tree structure, programmable
(inside emacs), texinfo can be printed or made into info files...
TeXinfo was designed by men who have studied and used computers for a
long time.

 While I'm browsing C or perl source, I can press a few keys, and have
the info manual to a libc or perl function in a second window in under
a second.  (I can put the cursor on a word, and with a few keystrokes,
have W3 fetch its definition from the online dictionary, too.)

Fernando> 7) A default searching/indexing engine should be
Fernando> chosen. It would be marked standard, but not
Fernando> important. Caching would be an option too.

 Yes.  Jim Pick's `dwww' is the best one going.  There's no reason why
info files cannot be indexed also.  With `gnuclient', info URI's could
be opened in an emacs if that is the user's preference.

(Koalatalk someday. ;-) )

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Re: Summary of the html/info/webserver/whatever mess

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Christian" == Christian Schwarz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Christian> Sorry, to be so rude, but this summary does not bring
Christian> us forward. Some of your "facts" are simply not valid
Christian> (e.g., we are _not_ discussing which documentation
Christian> format we use, though a few people think that we are).

 He was summarizing so we would know he was following along, and to
relay back to us what he got from it.  It didn't have to "bring us
forward".


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Sub-categorizing the /usr/doc directory.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I think it would be good to divide the "/usr/doc" directory into sub
directories.  It should be divided in the same as the Debian ftp site,
and packages should put their documentation into the same slot as the
one they got ftp'd from.

 The directory is very large when you have a lot of packages
installed, and it takes a lot of processing to open it with a file
manager, web browser, or dired.


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Re: Sub-categorizing the /usr/doc directory.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Jellinghaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Andreas> should we change this for 2.0 or 2.1 ?

2.0!


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Re: Debian Policy based on the wrong technical assumptions

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Fernando" == Fernando  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Fernando> I fear the Documentation Policy is being based on the
Fernando> wrong technical assumptions.

Fernando> Please take a moment and read the following timings made
Fernando> in a 386 SX-25 with 5MB of RAM. It will help you
Fernando> understand what is at stake. I did the test as fairly as
Fernando> I could and I claim to be a honest person.

 I'm not seeing the dramatic differences in times that Fernando does.

 I just ran the same tests.  The subjective difference, here, is far
less than the empirical one... meaning that for the short time it
takes to format a man page, if Lynx is a second or two faster, then
what difference does it make?  On a 386-sx with `only' 5Mb of RAM, it
makes a lot more difference.  Waiting over a minute and a half for a
manual to format would be excruciating.

 (Fernando, buy some RAM.  You need it bad. :-) It makes a BIG
difference to go to 8-12Mb.)


bash-2.00$ /usr/bin/time lynx -dump \
> http://localhost/cgi-bin/man2html/usr/man/man1/telnet.1.gz >/dev/null
0.98user 0.76system 0:02.45elapsed 70%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (7126major+2355minor)pagefaults 0swaps

bash-2.00$ /usr/bin/time  man -l /usr/man/man1/telnet.1.gz >/dev/null
Reformatting telnet.1.gz, please wait...
3.58user 0.09system 0:03.95elapsed 92%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (1189major+500minor)pagefaults 0swaps


bash-2.00$ /usr/bin/time echo >/dev/null
0.00user 0.00system 0:00.07elapsed 0%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (72major+12minor)pagefaults 0swaps

bash-2.00$ /usr/bin/time snarf \
> http://localhost/cgi-bin/man2html/usr/man/man1/telnet.1.gz - >/dev/null
0.00user 0.02system 0:00.65elapsed 3%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (74major+16minor)pagefaults 0swaps

bash-2.00$ /usr/bin/time snarf \
> http://localhost/cgi-bin/man2html/usr/man/man1/telnet.1.gz - \
> > /tmp/telnet.html
0.01user 0.01system 0:00.64elapsed 3%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (74major+16minor)pagefaults 0swaps


bash-2.00$ ls -l /tmp/telnet.html
-rw-r--r--   1 karlheg  karlheg 32944 Jun 29 13:44 /tmp/telnet.html

bash-2.00$ /usr/bin/time lynx -dump /tmp/telnet.html >/dev/null
1.07user 0.67system 0:01.85elapsed 93%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (7115major+2349minor)pagefaults 0swaps


bash-2.00$ gzip -9 /tmp/telnet.html

bash-2.00$ ls -l /tmp/telnet.html.gz
-rw-r--r--   1 karlheg  karlheg  8576 Jun 29 13:44 /tmp/telnet.html.gz

bash-2.00$ /usr/bin/time lynx -dump /tmp/telnet.html.gz >/dev/null
1.18user 0.60system 0:01.87elapsed 95%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (7356major+2439minor)pagefaults 0swaps


bash-2.00$ uname -a
Linux bittersweet 2.1.36 #9 Sun Jun 22 15:16:13 PDT 1997 i586 unknown

bash-2.00$ free
 total   used   free sharedbuffers cached
Mem: 63276  54024   9252  15464   2752  18456
-/+ buffers:32816  30460
Swap:   122968   4940 118028

bash-2.00$ bogomips
Calibrating delay loop.. ok - 197.37 BogoMips


Fernando> Please base policy on facts, not on pre-judgements.

 The fact is, bringing your system up to 8Mb of RAM would make a
*HUGE* difference in performance!  (as would a processor upgrade. Sock
away some cash, I guess.)  I found that the hop from 8Mb to 12Mb made
quite a lot of improvement.  The computer swapped a lot less, I was
able to run X windows and XEmacs then.  The jump from 12Mb to 16Mb
wasn't quite as dramatic, but did make a noticable difference.

:-)

 So, for the people with ancient 3 year to 5 year old computers, we'll
need to package docs in html.


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Re: `boa' vs `apache', etc.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

.

Fernando> We are not talking about the best way, but a way that
Fernando> works in any system.  Emacs is not it.

 I guess it's just too much AI for a 386sx with low RAM... ?  How does
the stand-alone info browser work for you?  Can you search?  Do the
arrow keys work right, or do you have to use {C-n} and {C-p}?  Will it
look up a man page like it should, when you press {Alt-x man} or 
{ESC x man}?  Can you {C-s} and search in those with it?  Will it let
you hyperlink to other man pages within it?  Can you leave it running
on another VT while you work, or suspend it when you don't need it for
a while?

KMH> No!  You cannot just erase that directory if Emacs or XEmacs
KMH> are...

Fernando> But you can erase the compiled info files and update the
Fernando> index.  That is what I meant.

 Yes, I suppose... but if Emacs or XEmacs is installed, they'll
"Depends:" on the info manuals too, won't they?

KMH> (Koalatalk someday. ;-) )

Fernando> What does that mean?

 `YaHoo' for "Koalatalk" :-) I thought it sounded like a really great
thing for Linux!  Maybe it will work well with Garnet... mmm.  Amulet.


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Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Yann" == Yann Dirson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Yann> Hi all of you...  I've just been reading this (quite old for
Yann> now) thread. What's the status of the discussion now ? Has
Yann> there been some new feeback from other groups ?

I just discovered "/usr/share/keytables/hypermap.m4".  It's a really
good keymap!  With that, emacs will see {M-S-!}, {M-S-<} and {M-S->}
on a linux console tty!  Finally!

The m4 macros it uses look like the right way to do this.  I bet
similar macros could define X keysyms.


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Re: RfD: Debian is not randomly installing services

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> James R Van Zandt writes:

James>  However, a relative newcomer might want to change his
James> answers (having learned things since answering the first
James> time).

!  You're kidding!  ;-)


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Re: remote shell command authentication ...

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

[ Which list does this belong on? I'm sorry to spam at you. ]

>>>>> "Richard" == Richard G Roberto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

[ in debian-user ]

Richard> Incidentally, the web based subscription service doesn't
Richard> appear to be working.  Also, the archives are pretty old.

 What's up with this?

Q: Are the mailing lists handled by `smartlist'?

Q: Are there archive servers for the lists?

Q: Can we make a cgi page to query the smartlist archive server?

Q: Can we encourage the use of keywords headers in mail to the lists
   that we expect may be FAQ information?


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Re: Sub-categorizing the /usr/doc directory.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Brian" == Brian White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Brian>   Maintainers don't chose what section their package goes
Brian> in -- they only recommend.  It's decided by the ftp site
Brian> maintainer (Guy).

 Maybe they should co-ordinate with one another a little then.

Brian>  Besides which, I don't remember which section I got a
Brian> specific package from.  Was xgalaga in X11 or games?

 dpkg --info packagname

>> From a "use" point of view, the user knows what package
>> documentation
Brian> he's looking for when going into /usr/doc, so why does a
Brian> large directory make any difference?

 It takes a long time to grind through a very full directory, and for
software to cons up lists of the files there.


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Re: fixhrefgz unnecessary when fixing web-browsers in the correct wayR

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Christoph" == Christoph Lameter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Christoph> This wont work as we already have said again and
Christoph> again. You are modifying the HTTP protocol with this
Christoph> and creating a new .html.gz extension in essence. And
Christoph> sometimes the web browser will get those files
Christoph> compressed and sometimes not.

The gzipped files are served as application/x-gzip, and an entry in
"/etc/mailcap" tells the browser how to uncompress it prior to
display rendering.  The protocol isn't changed at all.


Jim> Christoph seems to be advocating:

Jim> 3) Store HTML files compressed, and don't munge the links -
Jim> Lynx (and others) might work without a web server if they
Jim> were modified - Netscape wouldn't work without a web server -
Jim> other web browsers will work, if they use a web server such
Jim> as boa, or a web server and dwww

Christoph> I only advocated this as a compromise. I am for #1. And
Christoph> I would go further and abolish all compression
Christoph> everywhere. Compression should only be done if its
Christoph> transparent for all apps (e2compr or zlib?). I have
Christoph> seen so many broken packages because of manpage
Christoph> compression etc etc. The clean solution would be to
Christoph> stop this once and for all.

 Please read my earlier post regarding Apache run from `inetd' (or
better, from `xinetd'), and mod_rewrite.  I think we could set up an
.htaccess file for "/usr/doc" with some rewrite rules that would make
it so that if someone clicks a link in a Debian manual, the link will
be to http://localhost/doc/thing.html and the mod_rewrite will make it
so `apache' will grab that if it exists or grab thing.html.gz if /that/
exists, and failing either, will grab http://www.debian.org/doc/thing.html, 
where the similar thing happens; the docs there can be gzipped as
well.


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`COAS'

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I wonder if anyone else has seen this: http://www.caldera.com/coas/ ?

 Perhaps Diety should become a part of that?


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Re: Linking (ld) problem with package.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

I'd be interested in reading the solution, just for the knowledge.


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Re: Debian Commercial Support

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Bruce" == Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Bruce> I am looking for developers around the world who are
Bruce> interested in handling email support and/or telephone
Bruce> support for pay.

 I'm interested, and willing to help and learn.  If nothing else, for
 the next year an a half or so, I'd like to watch and see how it's
 done.

 [ Just bought Richard Stevens `APIUE'. ]

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Re: Technical Support Database suggestion..., CL-HTTP-P

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Jellinghaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Andreas> what about implementing this : make the database
Andreas> writeable for everyone (e.g. via a cgi script, or a small
Andreas> programm, that sends an email like bug, perfect : both),
Andreas> and "only" moderate it (accept or reject
Andreas> submissions). this way our users could help us !

 `smartlist' and `procmail' would be obvious choices for this type of
 application.[1] I made a simple hack with it that will write a mail
 sent through it into the `POP' bulletins directory.  It showed me
 that anything is possible with `procmail'.

>> All these applications should be web based.

 I think email & web, with searching from both.  The `smartlist'
 searching and retrieval could stand improvement.  It would be good to
 improve the searching syntax a little; make it more natural to use.

Andreas> i agree. sgml could the best format for the whole thing :
Andreas> you could also create text versions, or print the whole
Andreas> thing with tex.

 Sounds good.

Andreas> go !  as usual : it get's only done, if you do it
Andreas> yourself, so go !

 That's us.

 Q: Has anyone else been goofing with the CL-HTTP server?  It has
 tremendous potential for applications of this sort.  It's worth
 looking into, I think.  There already exist applications written for
 it that perform this sort of duty.  Please look into it with me.

 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/cl-http/home-page.html

 ... and there are other links off my page that may or may not be of
 interest.

Footnotes: 
[1]  I think it would be neat to upgrade the regexp stuff in
 `procmail' to utilize the new `pcre' library!

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Re: RFC: Deb 2.0 testing process

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Brandon" == Brandon Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Brandon> One idea that the testers seemed to like is to create a
Brandon> checklist for checking each package.

 It seems to me that a fairly comprehensive set of general guidelines
 would be more useful.  The checklist format might work well.  Perhaps
 it should become part of the developer and packager's guide(s) or the
 policy manual.

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Re: DEBIAN ANNOUNCES $1000 GRANT TO GNOME PROJECT

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "bruce" == bruce  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

bruce> Oops, I left an SMTP command at the end of that
bruce> message. Did you see it?

 I thought you were jesting with us.  We'll never quit. :-)


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Re: Need someone to take some of my packages.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Wichert" == Wichert Akkerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Wichert> Take a look at the code I made for lockvc 3.0. It handles
Wichert> both shadow and normal password (and mixed
Wichert> shadow/non-shadow) passwords well. And it's in a seperate
Wichert> sourcefile so it's easy to use in another application.

 Shouldn't things like that get tossed into a .so?


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Re: `COAS'

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Behan" == Behan Webster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Behan> Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps Diety should become a part of that?

Behan> *sigh*...  not diety, Deity.
Behan>^^

Behan> I wish people would learn to spell.  This is one of the
Behan> exceptions to the "i before e" rule.

 Type it 10 times, real fast.

 Regardle of my transpozo, did anyone follow the bouncing URL and
 find out anything of more than passing interest?

 I hope `deity' isn't sensitive about its wieght. :-)



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Re: lockfiles and mutual exclusion

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Adrian" == Adrian Bridgett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Adrian> update-menus forks to the background and waits for dpkg to
Adrian> finish before continuing to work. This is a useful
Adrian> function that could be useful for other programs (for
Adrian> instance scripts that build automated indexes of other
Adrian> kinds).

Adrian> Is there a cunning way to achieve this at present?

 Grab `procmail', and RTFM `lockfile'.  That's one way it can be done.
 There's a little program with `smartlist' too, called `led' or
 something, that's a wrapper around an editorling[1].  It makes a
 lockfile, then starts the ed on the procmail run-control file you are
 working on.  As long as the lockfile is present, `procmail' will hang
 out until you're done.

 I wrote some XEmacs lisp code for editting procmail rc files that
 does a similar thing.  Some of you may like to have it; it's in my
 http dirs at:

 http://www.inetarena.com/~karlheg/Public/site-lisp/

 ... it's called `led-funcs.el' or suchlike.  It's a first pass effort
 and could use a workover, but functions well enough to use now.[2]

 A lock like this is called a "mutex lock". (do I pass the quiz?  or
 am I misusing the terms?)  That means "mutual exclusion lock".  As
 long as the programs involved honor the locking scheme, they'll not
 stomp on one another.

 `dpkg' and `dselect' make a lock file; I know because I've tried to
 start it while it's already running on another tty, and it told
 me. :-)


Footnotes: 
[1]  Not necessarily a sensible editor.

[2]  There's a few other things in there you might like to have. :-)

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Re: Libc6 2.0.5c has a leak in inet_ntoa

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 > any news on libc6 2.0.6?   an ETA, perhaps?

 David Engel posted a week or so ago saying he's packaged it, and gave
 a URL.  I went and got it, and have been running it since with no
 apparent problems.

 Maintainer: David Engel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Source: glibc
 Version: 2.0.6-0.2

 I'm not advanced enough to know how to perform any tests for the leak
 you guys are talking about though.  But it runs fine. :-)


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Package ordering for `dselect'?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Adam" == Adam P Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Adam>  [...] w/ pkg ordering stuff apparently coming in and (?)
Adam>  dselect being dropped as the default installation
Adam>  mechanism.

 Can someone add the package ordering to `dselect', so we'll have that
 until `deity' is ready to use?  (I don't know how, or I'd try.)


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Re: ppp's ip-{up,down} and possible utilization of 'run-parts'

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Adam" == Adam P Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Adam> Maybe I should submit this as a wishlist to the bug system,
Adam> but I was interested in getting some comments first.

 Red Hat 5.0 has a complex network configuration setup... I didn't
 have time to look it over in detail, but think that someone who is
 capable of understanding it and perhaps `stealing' some ideas from it
 for Debian should do so.  They have a `netcfg' program that's written
 in python.  It will help you edit the chat scripts and everything.
 It took me very little effort to get a ppp link established using it.

 The Debian ppp setup is simpler; editting the easy to find (?) chat
 script was no more difficult, to me, than locating and running the
 RH `netcfg' was.

 I think the main thing is that a person with very little experience
 should be led through the initial setup by a script, at the very
 least.  It would be good to tell them about `minicom', with some
 instructions on how to use it to get the info they need to construct
 a working chat script.

 Has anyone created a document for this?  And a page for the boot disk
 telling of it, with simple instructions on how to begin reading.


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Why isn't STREAM_MAX == FOPEN_MAX?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 [ sent to debian-devel, and bcc'd to the local user's group ]

 Please direct me to where I ought to be asking this question so that
 I'm most likely going to get an answer, if here's not the place.


 I'm working the examples in "Advanced Programming in the UNIX
 Environment", by W. Richard Stevens.  In chapter 2, "Unix
 Standardization and Implementations", the first program is one that
 calls on the `sysconf' and `pathconf' functions to print various
 limits.

 On my system, which has several kernel patches and one patch to
 "types.h" applied[1] (hence the large value for OPEN_MAX), the
 program produces the following output:

504$ ./print-limits .
ARG_MAX = 131072
CHILD_MAX   = 999
clock ticks/second  = 100
NGROUPS_MAX = 32
OPEN_MAX= 3000
STREAM_MAX  = 8   < Isn't this too low?
TZNAME_MAX  = 3
_POSIX_JOB_CONTROL  = 1
_POSIX_SAVED_IDS= 1
_POSIX_VERSION  = 199309
MAX_CANON   = 255
MAX_INPUT   = 255
_POSIX_VDISABLE = 0
LINK_MAX= 127
NAME_MAX= 255
PATH_MAX= 1024
PIPE_BUF= 4096
_POSIX_NO_TRUNC = 1
_POSIX_CHOWN_RESTRICTED = 1

 On page 36, there is a table (figure 2.5), and in that table, it
 says, under STREAM_MAX, that "if defined, it must have the same value
 as FOPEN_MAX".  A `gid' search for FOPEN_MAX turned it up in
 "stdio_lim.h", defined as 256.  STREAM_MAX is defined in
 "xopen_lim.h" as _POSIX_STREAM_MAX, which in turn is defined in
 "posix1_lim.h" as 8.

 Q: Shouldn't STREAM_MAX = FOPEN_MAX, as stated in "APUE"?

 I'm just a beginner, and have no way of knowing how these defines are
 used in real life, or whether the values are reasonable or not.

Footnotes: 
[1]  I've applied the patches from www.linuxhq.org for max num
 subprocesses, max open files, and max socket conn.  The
 "types.h" patch changes __FD_SET_SIZE.
 


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Re: Debian Administration tool

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Brian" == Brian Bassett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Brian> The current plan calls for three interfaces (text-based
Brian> curses, X, and Web/CGI).

 `deity' works on console, xterm, and X.  Perhaps you can utilize that
 toolkit?


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Re: redirecting stderr to memory

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Enrique" == Enrique Zanardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Enrique> Any ideas?

 `publib' has some editor buffer stuff in it... could you use that
 somehow?


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Re: Work-Needing and Prospective Packages for Debian GNU/Linux

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

wnpp> o Removed perl documentaion from works in progress, as the
wnpp> provided manpages are sufficient.

 There really needs to be a `perl-info' package, with the Perl TeXinfo
 docs in it.  `cperl-mode' in the emacs editors has the ability to
 look up perl functions in the info.  It's indispensable.

 Yes, I should `bug' the maintainer... ;-)


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`cvs add' is dumping core

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 Has anyone else had trouble with `cvs add' dumping core?  I've tried
 upgrading to the latest `diff', various libc6's, and the hexagram
 key.  Nothing helps.  What could be wrong with it?


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Re: header munging, mail reader configs, Gnus propaganda

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul> (1) a good mail client (e.g. a properly configured mutt)
Raul> will give you the option of respecting reply-to, or ignoring
Raul> it.

 I use Gnus, and used `G p' in the *Groups* buffer to set the group
 properties of this mail group, adding:

 (to-address . "Debian Developers' Forum ")

 ... to the list.  Now when I push the follow-up key, that's the only
 header that gets inserted.  It omits the uneccesary `Cc:' list, so
 people won't get two copies.

Raul> (3) a good mail client can thread duplicate replies
Raul> together, making them easy to manage.

 Gnus can be configured to drop or elide duplicate messages, based on
 the Message-Id: header that `sendmail' (and probably other mailer
 daemons) adds.

Raul> A really good email client would probably have a mechanism
Raul> for indicating that the previous message's author prefers to
Raul> receive list mail only via the list address.

 It supports a `Mail-Replys-To:' header, which many people set to
 "never".

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Portland, OR  USA
Debian GNU 1.3.1+hamm Linux 2.0.32 AMD K5 PR-133


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Re: Taking over production of emacs20 package.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Raul" == Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Raul> Hmm.. seems like XEmacs should Provide: auctex.  I can't see
Raul> any formal problem if auctex is installed as a separate
Raul> package as well...  [Why someone would want to is beyond
Raul> me.]

 There's support for that in XEmacs-20.3.  The XEmacs developers are
 unbundling most of the packages, and setting up support for packaged
 elisp software that will be installed in a separated directory from
 the core elisp.

 You can find the NEWS file on their web site and read about it:

  http://www.xemacs.org


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Re: libc/378: Why isn't STREAM_MAX == FOPEN_MAX?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

From: Ulrich Drepper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: libc/378: Why isn't STREAM_MAX == FOPEN_MAX?
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ulrich Drepper)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>  Q: Shouldn't STREAM_MAX = FOPEN_MAX, as stated in "APUE"?

Yes, according to X/Open.  I've corrected this in the development
version now.  Thanks,

 [...]

From: Ulrich Drepper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: libc/378: Why isn't STREAM_MAX == FOPEN_MAX?
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M. Hegbloom)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M. Hegbloom) writes:

>  How did you fix it?  I'm curious.  Can you easily generate a patch?

It's not that easy.  I had to change 6 files to make it right but for
you with an installed libc it's easy: just change the line in
xopen_lim.h.

-- Uli
---.  drepper at gnu.org  ,-.   Rubensstrasse 5
Ulrich Drepper  \,---'   \  76149 Karlsruhe/Germany
Cygnus Solutions `--' drepper at cygnus.com   `


 Karl's quick patch:

--- /usr/include/xopen_lim.h.orig   Tue Dec 16 18:04:45 1997
+++ /usr/include/xopen_lim.hTue Dec 16 18:04:53 1997
@@ -53,7 +53,10 @@
 #define IOV_MAX_XOPEN_IOV_MAX
 
 /* The number of streams that one process can have open at one time.  */
-#define STREAM_MAX _POSIX_STREAM_MAX
+#ifndef FOPEN_MAX
+#include 
+#endif
+#define STREAM_MAX FOPEN_MAX
 
 /* Maximum number of bytes supported for the name of a time zone.  */
 #define TZNAME_MAX _POSIX_TZNAME_MAX


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Re: ["Gonzalo A. Diethelm" ] Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "James" == James Troup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

James> Alex Yukhimets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> When doing 'g'roup reply in elm, the e-mail of the person goes
>> into the "To:" header and list address (along with all other
>> thread participant's adresses) to "Cc:" header.

James> So, umm, fix elm?

 Or use `Gnus'. :-)


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Re: XEmacs elisp packages (was: Service registration)

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 The XEmacs team is working on unbundling much of the elisp that used
 to be included.  There is a new set of functions for building and
 adding packages' autoloads and `customize' dependancies.  I believe
 (though I am not certain) that it will require there be a `temacs'
 installed, and that XEmacs be redumped with the new autoloads after a
 major elisp package is installed.  I think there's going to be a
 makefile for doing that, which will get installed in the same
 location as things like `gnuserv'.  The alternative was to load the
 autoloads.elc and custom-deps.elc files at startup, which would be
 way too slow.

 For the best information, those of you in charge of implementing the
 Debian XEmacs packages should consult the NEWS file from XEmacs 20.3,
 as well as that of XEmacs-20.4 (beta), which, _I'm_guessing_, will be
 ready for release sometime during the first quarter of 1998.

 You should also _please_ join the `xemacs-beta' mailing list, after
 looking over the web pages, especially the NEWS and FAQ.

http://www.xemacs.org/

 ... then:

 echo subscribe xemacs-beta | mail -s subscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Information on how to become a beta tester may be found in the FAQ.
There are some exciting changes taking place!

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Portland, OR  USA
Debian GNU 1.3.1+hamm Linux 2.0.32 AMD K5 PR-133


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Does `dpkg' track the installation date of a package?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I wonder if `dpkg' tracks the installation date of a package, whether
 it should if it doesn't, or why it doesn't if that is the case.


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[SL Baur ] Schedule & version number change, new mailing list

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I hope this doesn't bug anyone too much... I think it's relevant to
 the current Emacs/XEmacs threads, and adds better information to my
 last message in that thread, the one about unbundling elisp packages
 from XEmacs.  This arrived a while after I'd posted that.

--- Begin Message ---
There has been a slight change of plans with the source code tree
currently named `20.4'.  It's not going to be ready for the scheduled
release of early 1998.

XEmacs `20.4' is hereby renamed to `20.5'.  Saturday's beta will be
numbered `20.5-beta12 "Bhuj"'.

The official 20.3 maintenance patches will continue to be collected
and once things settle down, they will be released as XEmacs 20.4 next 
month.

By popular demand, the xemacs-mule mailing list has been created.  To
subscribe send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the
magic word subscribe in the body.  Anything XEmacs/Mule related is
on-topic, including auxiliary software like Kinput2 and Wnn.  This is
a multilingual list.

--- End Message ---

Re: Does `dpkg' track the installation date of a package?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Todd" == Todd Graham Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Todd> Count mine as one vote for a new LOG_DEBIAN facility.

 And while we're at it, let's make one for HTTP also.

 Anything else?


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Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Kai" == Kai Henningsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Kai> Remember there are people that can't stand Emacs.

 Bliss. :-)


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Re: 2.0.32, XNvidia, Vtk

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Arto" == Arto Astala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Arto> When configuring kernel it asks if I want to make boot disk.
Arto> I did want. Then it asks something like "Hmm. You seem to
Arto> have new superformat, want to use it?" and I felt I'm taking
Arto> risks already and I don't want to answer yes to anything
Arto> this dubious.  Then it tried to create floppy with old
Arto> format (and with non-existing device as well?) but didn't
Arto> succeed. There was no obvious way to back up to "Hmmm. ..."
Arto> or otherwise correct the situation.

 I've found that during installation, I often want a way to go back to
 the previous thing like that, in case I've made a mistake.


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Re: potential mayhem with trial libc6 package and kernel-headers

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Bart" == Bart Schuller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Bart> Particularly if they happened to have a fully unpacked and
Bart> configured kernel source tree in /usr/src/linux .

Bart> * Poof *

 Perhaps the `kernel-headers' install script ought to look for an
 existing /usr/src/linux directory, do an lstat, and if it's really a
 directory, not a symlink, rename it to linux-version.  It can get the
 version from the version file in the kernel source can't it?

 I've installed kernel headers because I had to so libc would install.
 I'd rather use the headers in the actual kernel source though.


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IconPath, menu

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I've created a directory "/usr/X11R6/icons" for my own use.  I think
 that we need to have something like that, and a keeper of the icons.
 All of the mini icons and whatnot from the various packages ought to
 be consolidated into one icon package.  I think it should be someone
 who likes to draw things...  that's not me.

 Other packages that require icons could suggest it, and the menu
 system could use them if they're present, or not if they're not.

 The icon dir must bin in the IconPath of the window managers.

 I wonder if it would be good if menu had a way to specify a suggested
 font size and type...  if an icon is a little big, the text looks
 better larger too.  And some items could be small text, others larger
 or bold.

 I want backing pixmaps on the fvwm2 menu.  XEmacs and Gtk ones too.

 Every package with a menu should have an icon.

 The emacs icon is an example of one that's way too huge. :-)

 Here's two for the collection(s):



mini.gnu-animal.xpm
Description: Binary data
<>

"/etc/ld.so.conf" ordering

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I was just trying to compile `browser-history', and the following
 thing happened:

make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/debian/Work/browser-history'
gcc -ansi -O -Wall browser-history.c -o browser-history \
 -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lXmu -lX11
ld: warning: libc.so.5, needed by /usr/lib/libc5-compat/libXt.so.6, may 
conflict with libc.so.6
/lib/libc.so.5: the `getwd' function is dangerous and should not be used.
/lib/libc.so.5: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used.
/lib/libc.so.5: warning: `siggetmask' is obsolete; `sigprocmask' is best
/usr/lib/libc5-compat/libXt.so.6: undefined reference to `_Xsetlocale'
make[1]: *** [browser-history] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/debian/Work/browser-history'
make: *** [build-stamp] Error 2
[status 2]

 ... something told me that it was the ordering of the entries in
 "/etc/ld.so.conf" causing the trouble, so I went there and moved all
 of the `libc5-compat' ones to the end of the file, ran ldconfig, and
 that fixed the problem.

 Is this happening to others also?  Is there a way to ensure that the
 "ld.so.conf" file will be built in the correct order?


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debhelper: suggestions

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I find that if you put:

.EXPORT_ALL_VARIABLES:

 ... into debian/rules, the DH_VERBOSE=1 starts to function.

 Also, to put a version string into a program, I use:

VERSION=$(shell dpkg-parsechangelog 2>/dev/null 
   \
 | gawk -F: 
   \
'$$1 ~ /Version/{version= gensub(/^ */,"",g,$$2)}   
   \
 END { printf("%s_SPI", version) }')

build-stamp:
dh_testdir
$(MAKE) VERSION=$(VERSION)
touch build-stamp

 ... and then I use the VERSION in the C like this:

void
printCopyright (void)
{
fprintf (stderr,
 "tmpreaper -- Version: " VERSION "\n"
 "(c) 1997 Software in the Public Interest\n"
 "This may be freely redistributed under the terms of the GNU 
Public License.\n");
}
// 1 2 3 4 5 6  
   7 8
//
02345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890

$ tmpreaper --help
tmpreaper -- Version: 1.4.1-1_SPI
(c) 1997 Software in the Public Interest
This may be freely redistributed under the terms of the GNU Public License.

tmpreaper [-htvfsa] [--help] [--test] [--verbose] [--force] [--symlinks] [--all]
[[-p, --protect ]...]  ...
 is time since a file in a  was last accessed.
It defaults to hours, or you may suffix with `s', `m', `h', or `d'.


 ... or like:

browser-history: browser-history.c
$(CC) -ansi -O -Wall browser-history.c -o browser-history \
  -D_VERSION=\"$(VERSION)\" -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lXmu -lX11

 ... and then in the C program:

static char VERSION[]=_VERSION;
[...]
case 'V':   /* -Version */
fprintf(stderr, "browser-history v%s\n%s\n", VERSION, RCS_ID);
exit(0);
continue;

$ ./browser-history -V
browser-history v2.4-4_SPI
$Id: browser-history.c,v 1.1.1.1.2.3 1997/12/20 17:44:18 karlheg Exp $

 Any ideas?

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pgpzxhtol5jIs.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Intent to package: `cvsweb-1.0'

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I'm planning to package `cvsweb-1.0'.

 Q: Where does it go?  Experimental, or unstable/web?

 Here's the README, the copyright follows.



README
Description: Binary data
# Copyright (C) 1996
#   William C. Fenner.  All rights reserved.
#
# Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
# modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
# are met:
# 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
#notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
# 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
#notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
#documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
# 3. Neither the name of the author nor the names of any co-contributors
#may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software
#without specific prior written permission.
#
# THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY William C.  Fenner AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS''
# AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
# IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
# ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL William C.  Fenner, HIS BROTHER B1FF, OR
# CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
# EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
# PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS;
# OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY,
# WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR
# OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF
# ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

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menu: suggestions - extending the menu files

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 It occurs to me that the menu files ought to have fields for:

 Xresources to get `xrdb -merge'd when the program is launched. (lazy eval)
  (and removed perhaps, on the delete window hook?  Does the X server gc?)

 Menu font, color, icon, a predicate for when it's greyed off (think scwm)


 XTerm geometry and title for text apps.

 Other args to the xterm text apps run in...  ones to make menus on
 terms that support that, perhaps

 wait="t" or wait="nil" - some programs exit after output, but I want
 to read it first. (like how mc says push a key after it runs a cmd.)


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Re: debhelper: suggestions

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Joey" == Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Karl> Also, to put a version string into a program, I use:

VERSION=$(shell dpkg-parsechangelog 2>/dev/null \
  | gawk -F: \
 '$$1 ~ /Version/ {version = gensub(/^ */,"",g,$$2)} \
 END {printf("%s_SPI", version) }')

Joey> I've definitly considered adding version testing to
Joey> debhelper. Thanks for the shell fragmenet. I considered
Joey> making a dh_checkver, that takes a version number, and
Joey> returns 1 if the current version is older - that's let
Joey> debian/rules files abort with outdated versions of
Joey> debhelper. What do you think of that idea?

 Ok...  I thought that the `auto-debhelper' idea was good.  m4 is very
 powerful.  It would allow more sophisticated automatic script
 building.  Thing is, do we need that?  How often is there a package
 that would even use it?  YTMAWBN[1], I'm a beginner.

Karl> build-stamp: dh_testdir $(MAKE) VERSION=$(VERSION) touch
Karl> build-stamp

Karl> ... and then I use the VERSION in the C like this:

void
printCopyright (void)
{
fprintf (stderr,
 "tmpreaper -- Version: " VERSION "\n"
 "(c) 1997 Software in the Public Interest\n"
 "This may be freely redistributed under the terms of the GNU 
Public License.\n");
}
// 1 2 3 4 5 6  
   7 8
//
02345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890

Joey> Hang on, maybe I'm missing something - is the version
Joey> debhelper's version, or the version of your package?

 The version of the package.

 Note that I use `dpkg-parsechangelog', rather than the simpler:

LINE=$(head -1 changelog)
VERSION=$(expr $LINE : '.* (\(.*\))')

 ... since I thought that the reason for using `dpkg-parsechangelog'
 was so folks could experiment with alternative changelog formats.

 Is anyone doing that?


Footnotes: 
[1]  You Tell Me And We'll Both Know

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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M. Hegbloom)
http://www.inetarena.com/~karlheg
Portland, OR  USA
Debian GNU 1.3.1+hamm Linux 2.0.32 AMD K5 PR-133


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Re: Work-Needing and Prospective Packages for Debian GNU/Linux

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

wnpp> o Steve Kostecke  has adopted
wnpp>  linuxlogo.

 Uh, I was told I could take the package, and have uploaded.

 Steve, you can have it, if you like; I learned from repackageing it,
 perhaps you'll get something from it too.  Let me know.


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Re: debhelper: suggestions

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

>>>>> "Joey" == Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Joey> Karl M. Hegbloom wrote:
>> Note that I use `dpkg-parsechangelog', rather than the simpler:
>>
>> LINE=$(head -1 changelog) VERSION=$(expr $LINE : '.* (\(.*\))')
>>
>> ... since I thought that the reason for using
>> `dpkg-parsechangelog' was so folks could experiment with
>> alternative changelog formats.

Joey> Ah, I'll have to modify debhelper to use that. Good point.

 Well, I'm glad you wrote it the way you did.  I've just begun to
 learn how shell scripts are written and that's the first time I'd
 encountered that use of `expr'.  I learned from it.


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Re: debhelper: suggestions

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Joey" == Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Joey> However, on second thought, using dpkg-parsechangelog is
Joey> unappetising. Not only does it print out this annoying error
Joey> message, but it takes a about a second to run. (on a p166)

Joey> Since debian/rules files that use debhelper typically cal
Joey> about 20 d_* programs in a package build, that's about half
Joey> a minute added to the build, along with an appalling amount
Joey> of ugly messages. I don't know... it's the right thing to
Joey> do, but it's so ugly...

 Maybe you could do it once, in the "rules" file:

export PKG_VERSION=$(shell dh_parseversion)

 ... and then use it from the environment.  I don't know what to do
 about that error mess.  Is it on stdout or stderr?  Perhaps you could
 have `dh_parseversion' elide it with redirections... piping through
 `gawk' and only grabbing what you need seems to work.  I don't know
 if `expr' is a simpler way yet.  Hmmm.  Does it handle the newlines?


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Re: debhelper: suggestions

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Joey" == Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Joey> expr "`dpkg-parsechangelog`" : '.*Version: \(.*\).*\nDistribution:'

 I can't get that to work.  I have much better luck with `gawk'.


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Re: Work-Needing and Prospective Packages for Debian GNU/Linux

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Steve" == Steve Kostecke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Steve, you can have it, if you like; I learned from
>> repackageing it, perhaps you'll get something from it too.  Let
>> me know.

Steve> All of this for such a small package...  If you've already
Steve> done the work you might as well keep it.  Please forward
Steve> the first part of this message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and tell
Steve> them you are adopting the package from me.

 I'd rather just let you take it.  You can ftp a tarfile of it from:

 (please, Steve only.  This ISN'T a public server. It's my home computer.)

 wget ftp://bittersweet.inetarena.com/pub/linuxlogo{-deb,_1.0.orig}.tar.gz

 ... this is everything for the debian package, and the original
 pristine sources (I assume.) that I got from ftp.debian.org.  I'll
 leave the line on so you can get it; don't expect blazing speed, it's
 across a 33.6 from the net.

 The last release I made has an error.  I missed installing the rcN.d
 symlinks, so it doesn't get run on startup.  I hope you can fix that.

 I've added an icon and a menu entry, along with a wrapper script so
 there's now a Games/Toys menu that will display the penguin.

 I tried to put this under CVS, but it's not working.  It causes cvs
 to dump core.  I think it's because the files got created under DOS,
 and all have ^M line endings.  I didn't convert it because it would
 change every line of every file, and the diff would be twice as big
 as the pristine sources.

 Have fun, I hope you learn a lot from this.

--TAA06413.882933161/bittersweet.inetarena.com--


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Re: Emacs20 and mail file locking.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Rob" == Rob Browning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Rob> OK, then I'll assume that we want to hack emacs to use
Rob> liblockfile.  This requires repeatedly calling touchlock() to
Rob> keep the lockfile from being deleted during the period when
Rob> the lock is being held.  I think this may be a problem if
Rob> emacs grabs the lock (with maillock()), and then the user
Rob> suspends the program for more than 5 minutes (the default
Rob> timeout for maillock).  When emacs resumes, the lockfile has
Rob> been deleted, but emacs still thinks it has the lock.

 Please see the functions I wrote for working with `smartlist'
 run-control files, at:

  http://inetarena.com/~karlheg/Public/site-lisp/led-funcs.el

 ... That's tested in XEmacs; it shouldn't be too hard to port to GNU
 Emacs.

 If you hack XEmacs to use liblockfile, will you please conditionalize
 it somehow and submit the patches to the xemacs-beta team?

Rob> The only simple way I can see around this problem is to have
Rob> emacs spawn a small process to keep touching the lockfile
Rob> (every 4 minutes or so) whenever it acquires the lock, and
Rob> kill that process when the lock is released.  Does that seen
Rob> reasonable to everyone else?

 That's essentially what my code does, using `itimer', `call-process'
 and the `touch' program.

 I don't think that Emacs ever locks a mail spool file itself.
 `movemail' does that, and it already does dot-locking...  Well, I
 know that the XEmacs version does.  I assume that the GNU Emacs one
 does as well.  If not, there's probably no reason why you can't use
 the XEmacs version of `movemail' with both emacsen.


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Re: Immutable files

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Topi" == Topi Miettinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Topi> Matthew Wilcox writes:
>>
>> From a security point of view, it might be considered
>> worthwhile to install system executables (particularly the suid
>> ones) and then mark them immutable.

Topi> Sounds like a simple extension to suidmanager
Topi> package. According to WNPP, it needs a new maintainer (hint
Topi> hint).

 I've already taken over maintainership from Christoph Lameter
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.

 I suppose that the immutable bit could be set by adding a new
 optional argument and optional field in "/etc/suid.conf".  But what
 happens when you go to upgrade the package?

 If the prerm scripts ran `suidunregister', it might work.  But that's
 being done in the postrm scripts, after the old file is supposed to
 be removed. (is that right?)  The file cannot be deleted with the
 immutable bit set.

Topi> Maybe using suidmanager should be enforced by the Policy?

 Yes, perhaps.  Has this been discussed before?


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Re: Emacs20 and mail file locking.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 ... more to say, now that I read what I wrote...

 I don't think that the dot locking done by `movemail' is nfs-aware.
 You'd need to use libnfslock for that, I guess, or patch `movemail'.


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ldconfig, dangling symlinks - solution

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 The reason that ldconfig is reporting `file not present' is that a
 package has installed shared objects without also installing the
 symlinks.  `ldconfig' makes the symlink when it's run, and when the
 package is uninstalled, it removes the file pointed to, but not the
 symlink.


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Re: slib and Debian ?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 I installed the slib-2c0, and applied the patch to ice-9/slib.scm,
and made a symlink:

total 7
drwxr-xr-x   3 root root 1024 Nov 12 08:23 1.2
drwxr-xr-x   3 root root 1024 Nov 27 12:51 app
lrwxrwxrwx   1 root root   14 Dec 25 20:17 slib -> /usr/lib/slib/
-rw-r--r--   1 root root 4315 Dec 25 20:25 slibcat

 ... The `slibcat' file won't be there the first time, so you have to
run once as root.  `make clean' in the gnome directory seems to do it.


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Re: slib and Debian ?

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Jim" == Jim Pick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Jim> Here's a possible slibconfig script with support for Guile in
Jim> it:

 I think you forgot to make the symlink:

 ln -s /usr/lib/slib /usr/share/guile/


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Re: Emacs20 and mail file locking.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Rob" == Rob Browning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Rob> Assuming you're right, and movemail is used for all mail
Rob> locking, then if we patch movemail to use liblockfile, we
Rob> should be fine.

 I volunteer to try rolling those patches into XEmacs 20.5.  I think
 that configure ought to detect `liblockfile' and compile `movemail'
 accordingly.  Sound right?

Rob> I'm under the impression that liblockfile handles everything,
Rob> including nfs.  I believe libnfslock is transitional, for use
Rob> until everything's migrated to liblockfile.

 Yes, that seems right... I looked them over once a few months ago.  I
 think after I've finished reading the two W. Richard Stevens Unix
 programming books I've just begun, I will go over them again with
 better understanding, and thus, better recollection.


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Re: What's Debian's /usr/src policy.

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

 Along with this, in the similar thread, I think we should set aside a
 place in our "/usr/src/" for the building of Debian packages, using
 `cvs-buildpackage'.  (which I promise to _try_ and grok this week.)

 How about... "/usr/src/debian/{build,work}"?

 It would be good to put into policy a naming convention for CVS tags,
 as well, perhaps.

 Mine are visible at: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: my user on my box!

[Karl M. Hegbloom]

> "Jon" == Jon Björklund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Jon> What I want is to get my user named ceed to be as powerful as
Jon> root but at the same time it shouldn't be root.

 There are several ways of doing that.  `secure-su' lets you set
things up so that certain users can `su' to become certain other
users, and bypass the password.  It's convienient to allow some folks
to become `webmaster' for instance.

 `super' lets you set up certain commands to be run as another user.
It's pretty easy to do; once you RTFM you'll know as much as I do
about it, so I won't go into details.

 `sudo' is another way; it is perhaps the most popular method of
allowing users to run commands as root or as other users.

 Scripts may be set `SUID' two different ways.  Perl programs may use
`suidperl', and shell scripts can securely be run SUID using
`suidexec', which may be found in the `suidmanager' package.


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