Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
Thanks for the comment - I have already abandoned this ITP. Millis On Tue, 2003-07-01 at 02:42, Miles Bader wrote: Lukas Geyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not really sure that email satisfies this criterion. Maintaining non-free packages is a hassle, it might be easier to write a free replacement in the time saved by messing around with non-free packages and getting special Debian redistribution permissions. Yeah, and then you could use a less stupid name for it too. -Miles -- Millis Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG Key ID: 0x7C42934F Website: http://www.faztek.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
Lukas Geyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not really sure that email satisfies this criterion. Maintaining non-free packages is a hassle, it might be easier to write a free replacement in the time saved by messing around with non-free packages and getting special Debian redistribution permissions. Yeah, and then you could use a less stupid name for it too. -Miles -- `Life is a boundless sea of bitterness'
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Sat, Jun 28, 2003 at 04:08:05PM +0100, Millis Miller wrote: OK, let me see if I can address all the comments I've received so far. [...] Thanks, for your explanations, but i think that the most important issue here is the license. You'd better keep in touch with upstream author and try to convice him to relax the license terms to let us redistribute 'email' at least in non-free section. The best would be to make him change the license up to a DFSG compliant license. This bug should be tagged 'wontfix' untill license issue will be resolved. ciao, -- Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis | Elegant or ugly code as well aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''. | something in common: they local LANG=[EMAIL PROTECTED] | don't depend on the language. pgpXWpfJLMPnR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
I've already spoken to the upstream author, and he does not see mwilling to convert to a DFSG license. Probably the only thing I can do is to make it suitable for the non-free section for the time being. Can you indicate to me how the license shoudl be changed to be suitable for the non-free section? Thanks, Millis
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 09:49:46PM -0400, Anthony DeRobertis wrote: On Friday, Jun 27, 2003, at 11:05 US/Eastern, Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis wrote: On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 12:32:59AM +0100, Millis Miller wrote: * License : Custom Its license is non-free, not Custom: * ... * ANY COMMERCIAL REDISTRIBUTION OR ANY PROPRIETARY REDISTRIBUTION OF THIS * OR ANY SOURCE FROM CLEANCODE.ORG IS PROHIBITED UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS AND [...] SHALL NOT BE RE-SOLD OR REDISTRIBUTED WITHOUT PRIOR AGREEMENTS WITH * CLEANCODE.ORG ...or redistributed without prior agreements... That can't be packaged, even for non-free. Do we count as commercial redistribution or proprietary redistibution? If not, then it looks like it can be packaged. It's probably polite to ask them anyway. Neil -- A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li 8DEC67C5
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Millis Miller wrote: I've already spoken to the upstream author, and he does not see mwilling to convert to a DFSG license. Probably the only thing I can do is to make it suitable for the non-free section for the time being. Can you indicate to me how the license shoudl be changed to be suitable for the non-free section? I think the only thing needed would be to get an OK for Debian to distribute the program, in modified form. That'd get it into non-free. -- --- #include disclaimer.h Matthew Palmer, Geek In Residence http://ieee.uow.edu.au/~mjp16
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, Millis Miller wrote: Package: wnpp Version: N/A; reported 2003-06-27 Severity: wishlist * Package name: email Version : 1.9.0 Upstream Author : Dean Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://www.cleancode.org/email * License : Custom Description : Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption email is a simple command-line program to send emails. It can be configured to use either your sendmail installation or directly via smtp. . Also, if gpg is installed, it can digitally sign and encrypt outgoing emails. Well, if we had voting on NEW packages, this would be first on my list of software never to be allowed into debian. The name is wrong, and the author appears to have a bubble on his neck that needs to be burst, if he thinks otherwise. The license is poor as well. ps: I'm ignoring the auto-sig issue. That's just plain stupidity.
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
What other package would you suggest that does the same functionality then insteard? I specifically was interested in this one because of the mime encoding of the signature/encryption functionality. Millis
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
Millis Miller wrote: I've already spoken to the upstream author, and he does not see mwilling to convert to a DFSG license. Probably the only thing I can do is to make it suitable for the non-free section for the time being. Can you indicate to me how the license shoudl be changed to be suitable for the non-free section? I don't think that the program provides enough value to be included in Debian only based on the social contract's support users clause. (I.e. nonfree+only substitute for small shell shell script = not worthy.) Especially, having a package email in non-free tastes way to much like endorsement of non-free software. (Especially since it's a particulary nasty variant of non-free-ness.) If the package was called silly-little-nonfree-email-tool, that might be different... If you really want something like this in Debian, go write a free substitute. Cheers T. pgpKbvQovrubl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
#include hallo.h * Adam Heath [Mon, Jun 30 2003, 12:05:06PM]: Well, if we had voting on NEW packages, this would be first on my list of software never to be allowed into debian. The name is wrong, and the author appears to have a bubble on his neck that needs to be burst, if he thinks otherwise. The license is poor as well. ps: I'm ignoring the auto-sig issue. That's just plain stupidity. Ack. It pushes its Spam into the headers, but does not support the charset handling correctly, not even the mime-types from mime-support. Read: it does not do anything (any sane thing) that mutt already does, is non-free and the name is completlely wrong/braindead/rudiculous/missleading (choose whatever you want). MfG, Eduard. -- Alfie Zugschlus: Du untertreibst mal wieder maßlos. Zugschlus Alfie: so bin ich eben. so bescheiden und lieb... Zugschlus .oO( wer das in irgend ein Topic schreibt, stirbt )
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Millis Miller wrote: What other package would you suggest that does the same functionality then insteard? I specifically was interested in this one because of the mime encoding of the signature/encryption functionality. apt-cache show bash
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
Hi Steve! You wrote: I object to this ITP. The software in question is both trivial and non-free. Those features which are not a subset of mime-construct ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) are either irrelevant to Debian systems (direct SMTP-based mailing) or a bad idea (encouraging users to store pgp passphrases on disk). With a license that prohibits bug fixes or improvements, including this program in the Debian archive will not benefit our users. I agree. I don't think this piece of software should be in the archive, not even in non-free. -- Kind regards, ++ | Bas Zoetekouw | GPG key: 0644fab7 | || Fingerprint: c1f5 f24c d514 3fec 8bf6 | | [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] | a2b1 2bae e41f 0644 fab7 | ++
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
Millis Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've already spoken to the upstream author, and he does not see mwilling to convert to a DFSG license. Probably the only thing I can do is to make it suitable for the non-free section for the time being. Can you indicate to me how the license shoudl be changed to be suitable for the non-free section? I am not for abandoning the non-free section, but I think we should really limit it to software for which no free replacement exists. I am not really sure that email satisfies this criterion. Maintaining non-free packages is a hassle, it might be easier to write a free replacement in the time saved by messing around with non-free packages and getting special Debian redistribution permissions. (Remember, there is no build daemon for non-free.) Lukas
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
Hi, Millis Miller wrote: Package: wnpp Version: N/A; reported 2003-06-27 Severity: wishlist * Package name: email Version : 1.9.0 Upstream Author : Dean Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://www.cleancode.org/email * License : Custom Description : Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption Hmm.. A little bit long, no? email is a simple command-line program to send emails. It can be configured to use either your sendmail installation or directly via smtp. . Also, if gpg is installed, it can digitally sign and encrypt outgoing emails. How is that (except that mail uses the local sendmail) different from: echo foo | gpg --clearsign | mail -s subject [EMAIL PROTECTED] or cat mailtxt | gpg --clearsign | mail -s ... or cat mailtxt.signed | mail -s Grüße/Regards, René -- .''`. René Engelhard -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer : :' : http://www.debian.org | http://people.debian.org/~rene/ `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | GnuPG-Key ID: 248AEB73 `- Fingerprint: 41FA F208 28D4 7CA5 19BB 7AD9 F859 90B0 248A EB73 pgpyRNbUULUlG.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, Millis Miller wrote: Package: wnpp Version: N/A; reported 2003-06-27 Severity: wishlist * Package name: email Version : 1.9.0 Upstream Author : Dean Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://www.cleancode.org/email * License : Custom Description : Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption email is a simple command-line program to send emails. It can be configured to use either your sendmail installation or directly via smtp. . Also, if gpg is installed, it can digitally sign and encrypt outgoing emails. Do I even need to say it?
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 12:32:59AM +0100, Millis Miller wrote: Package: wnpp Version: N/A; reported 2003-06-27 Severity: wishlist * Package name: email Version : 1.9.0 Upstream Author : Dean Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://www.cleancode.org/email * License : Custom Description : Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption email is a simple command-line program to send emails. It can be configured to use either your sendmail installation or directly via smtp. . Also, if gpg is installed, it can digitally sign and encrypt outgoing emails. I understand that email is the name of the upstream client but I'd like to urge you to reconsider keeping this name while the program is in Debian. In fact, I'd like to urge to consider contacting the upstream author to have them change the name upstream as well. In addition to being totally unoriginal, the name is hopelessly generic and, as a result, quite confusing. It's unclear whether we are talking about email, the client, or email, the larger concept. This isn't the first time this has come up. You should review previous discussions on the subject[1] in the archives. On a related note, it makes reading the upstream homepage mind numbing. The page is peppered with link text like Download Email, and Home of Email that are confusing at best. Does Email Man Page email the man page or is it the man page for email -- and it's about how to use email the client, not email in general right? If you want to email the authors, you click on one of the two links *without* the word email in the title. Regards, Mako [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200107/msg01845.html -- Benj. Mako Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mako.yukidoke.org/ pgpqD6iBPWggg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
Benj. Mako Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 12:32:59AM +0100, Millis Miller wrote: Package: wnpp Version: N/A; reported 2003-06-27 Severity: wishlist * Package name: email I understand that email is the name of the upstream client but I'd like to urge you to reconsider keeping this name while the program is in Debian. Fortunately, this is no problem, since the license (http://email.cleancode.org/download/COPYING) doesn't allow redistribution anyway and so it cannot even go to non-free. -- Falk
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Sat, Jun 28, 2003 at 04:08:05PM +0100, Millis Miller wrote: This from Upstream: A) Email users SMTP or Sendmail. (Main purpose!) Which would make it the only piece of mail-aware software on the system that doesn't depend on a working /usr/sbin/sendmail; so this is great as long as you never install any other software. (c.f. 'apt-cache showpkg mail-transport-agent'.) B) Email handles the GPG interaction. Meaning you can use email from a cron job and as long as you have your pass in the email.conf file, you won't have to type it in when gpg asks for it. You'd have to come up with a pretty wicked shell script otherwise. This is as good of a reason as any to NOT include this software in Debian. If you want passwordless access to a gpg key, create your gpg key without a passphrase -- don't encourage users to acquire a false sense of security by putting a passphrase on their key, and then storing the passphrase on disk next to the key! C) Email handles signature files D) Email handles an address book. E) Email does binary attachments and uses MIME (mime types, base64 encoding) to attach and send them with the message. You can't do this by doing what is described above. You can UUEncode it, but A LOT of mail clients don't support UUEncoding anymore. Plus, you can attach multiple binary files with email, not just one UUEncoded file. For instance: uuencode file.bin | gpg --clearsign | mail OTOH, the above features seem useful. First of all, it's only one file. Second of all, it's using a --clearsign and not the way email does it. I believe it was you who suggested email sign/encrypt messages such as Ximian and Outlook does. This is the way the majority of modern mail reader clients view such data. So in short: The command line way you are suggesting violates modern RFC compliant mail reader clients. However, email follows RFC's 821, 2015 (PGP Encryption), 2045, and soon 2554. Outlook is not a modern mail reader. It *certainly* doesn't know what to do with PGP/MIME messages. In light of this, I think providing tools that allow users to more easily generate PGP/MIME messages is a good thing. 3. Change the name from email to something else. Upstream does not want to do this, as the name has been in use since 2001, with an established user base. Apparently (for what it is worth) it has been used in Slackware with this name. I've been using email since 1994, and have never heard of this software. I'm sure many here have other examples of prior art. -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpxhXgo4Mx7k.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Sat, Jun 28, 2003 at 03:33:16PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2003 at 04:08:05PM +0100, Millis Miller wrote: E) Email does binary attachments and uses MIME (mime types, base64 encoding) to attach and send them with the message. You can't do this by doing what is described above. You can UUEncode it, but A LOT of mail clients don't support UUEncoding anymore. Plus, you can attach multiple binary files with email, not just one UUEncoded file. For instance: uuencode file.bin | gpg --clearsign | mail OTOH, the above features seem useful. mime-construct does multiple mime attachments. it does an excellent job, a very useful and versatile tool. it doesn't do uuencode, but a) uuencode is deprecated and should be avoided, and b) that's easy enough to do anyway: (for i in file1.bin file2.bin file3.bin ; uuencode $i ; echo ; done) | \ gpg --clearsign | mail ... FWIW, i don't think that mere duplication of existing functionality is a reason for a package not to be included in debian(*), but email is a really bad name for this program and this package. it's far too generic. (*) the only criteria for inclusion in debian are: 1. is it free? 2. is someone willing to package and maintain it? craig
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
On Friday 27 June 2003 01:32, Millis Miller wrote: Description : Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption Also, if gpg is installed, it can digitally sign and encrypt outgoing emails. Just out of curiosity: inline PGP, or PGP/MIME cheers -- vbi -- random link of the day: http://fortytwo.ch/sienapei/shoezaim pgpO5ztwWzmS5.pgp Description: signature
Re: Bug#198957: ITP: email -- Send email from command line, either via MTA or SMTP, with optional encryption
OK, let me see if I can address all the comments I've received so far. 1. Description too long. OK, I will change it to a shorter one, once I work out how to do that with an ITP. 2. Various questions along the line of What does email do that a certain shell sequence doesn't. This from Upstream: A) Email users SMTP or Sendmail. (Main purpose!) B) Email handles the GPG interaction. Meaning you can use email from a cron job and as long as you have your pass in the email.conf file, you won't have to type it in when gpg asks for it. You'd have to come up with a pretty wicked shell script otherwise. C) Email handles signature files D) Email handles an address book. E) Email does binary attachments and uses MIME (mime types, base64 encoding) to attach and send them with the message. You can't do this by doing what is described above. You can UUEncode it, but A LOT of mail clients don't support UUEncoding anymore. Plus, you can attach multiple binary files with email, not just one UUEncoded file. For instance: uuencode file.bin | gpg --clearsign | mail First of all, it's only one file. Second of all, it's using a --clearsign and not the way email does it. I believe it was you who suggested email sign/encrypt messages such as Ximian and Outlook does. This is the way the majority of modern mail reader clients view such data. So in short: The command line way you are suggesting violates modern RFC compliant mail reader clients. However, email follows RFC's 821, 2015 (PGP Encryption), 2045, and soon 2554. 3. Change the name from email to something else. Upstream does not want to do this, as the name has been in use since 2001, with an established user base. Apparently (for what it is worth) it has been used in Slackware with this name. Also, I myself first came accross it precisly by doing a search on google using the word email (I forget exatly how, something like command line email I think). Finally, as Upstream reasons, it does actually describe what it does. Remembering the meaning of the verb, to email, email does precisely that: send email. BR, Millis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
