Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Philip Charles]

On Monday 29 October 2007 23:42, MJ Ray wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ti, 2007-10-23 kello 09:44 -0500, Steve Greenland kirjoitti:
> > > But the license on the package itself doesn't make that
> > > restriction.
> >
> > If I have understood things correctly, in England (and the rest of
> > the UK?) the copyright is owned by the crown and therefore it is the
> > crown that sets the license. [...]
> > But don't trust me on this, I am merely speculating.
>
> AFAICT, that's incorrect: this restriction is from the letters patent,
> not the copyright (which has long since expired).  Wikipedia seems to
> have been corrected on this since I last looked.
>
> Also, it's also not clear whether the patent is actively enforced and
> it's well-known as not enforced against most printing outside the UK
> (the KJV is frequently printed in the US, for example, isn't it?) even
> by Englishmen.
>
> So, does debian really need to remove packages of such importance
> because of a trivially-avoidable not-obviously-enforced patent?

Queen Elizabeth II authorised William Collins of Glasgow to print my copy 
of the Scotish* version of the Authorised Vesion of the Old and New 
Testaments, under the same Letters Patent granted by Queen Victoria in 
1839. I do not think that Her Majesty and her advisers would be worried 
about electronic copies, they could well take a different stand on 
printed versions.
*While the version for the Church of Scotland is the most common and is 
the version under discussion, it is a shortened version of the original.
 
Phil.
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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[MJ Ray]

Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ti, 2007-10-23 kello 09:44 -0500, Steve Greenland kirjoitti:
> > But the license on the package itself doesn't make that restriction.
>
> If I have understood things correctly, in England (and the rest of the
> UK?) the copyright is owned by the crown and therefore it is the crown
> that sets the license. [...]
> But don't trust me on this, I am merely speculating.

AFAICT, that's incorrect: this restriction is from the letters patent,
not the copyright (which has long since expired).  Wikipedia seems to
have been corrected on this since I last looked.

Also, it's also not clear whether the patent is actively enforced and
it's well-known as not enforced against most printing outside the UK
(the KJV is frequently printed in the US, for example, isn't it?) even
by Englishmen.

So, does debian really need to remove packages of such importance
because of a trivially-avoidable not-obviously-enforced patent?

Surprised,
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[David Weinehall]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 11:42:07PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 17:04 +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> > ti, 2007-10-23 kello 12:35 +0100, Matthew Vernon kirjoitti:
> > > The Authorized Version of the Bible isn't covered by Copyright in
> > > the  
> > > conventional sense. The Queen's Printer (currently Cambridge  
> > > University Press) has an exclusive commercial right to print the AV  
> > > (and the BCP, but that's not relevant here) in England
> > 
> > Would not a restriction on commercial use still be against the DFSG, and
> > the package therefore be problematic?
> 
> Not to mention the dire sanctions against derivative works of the
> Revelation (from chapter 22):
> 
>   18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of
> this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the
> plagues that are written in this book:
>   19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this
> prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the
> holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Damn, I was just about to submit a bunch of bugfixes for the some of the
more blatantly obviously fuckups, such as the homophobia and misogynism.


Regards: David
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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Ben Hutchings]

On Tue, 2007-10-23 at 17:04 +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> ti, 2007-10-23 kello 12:35 +0100, Matthew Vernon kirjoitti:
> > The Authorized Version of the Bible isn't covered by Copyright in
> > the  
> > conventional sense. The Queen's Printer (currently Cambridge  
> > University Press) has an exclusive commercial right to print the AV  
> > (and the BCP, but that's not relevant here) in England
> 
> Would not a restriction on commercial use still be against the DFSG, and
> the package therefore be problematic?

Not to mention the dire sanctions against derivative works of the
Revelation (from chapter 22):

  18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of
this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the
plagues that are written in this book:
  19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this
prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the
holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Life is like a sewer:
what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.


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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Bernd Zeimetz]

Isabel Drost wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 October 2007, Steve Greenland wrote:
>> Mere local law shouldn't make a package DFSG non-free. I'd bet there are
>> many packages in Debian whose distribution or use violates local law
>> somewhere in the world.
> 
> Just a tiny example: I guess, Debian still contains many packages that 
> contain 
> software that might be considered "hacker tools" in German courts and thus 
> might be forbidden under German law:

... as long as most of those tools are also contained on a CD which is
distributed by the BSI[1], I wouldn't think much about taking any action
here in Germany

Cheers,

Bernd


[1]: http://www.bsi.de/produkte/boss/index.htm
-- 
Bernd Zeimetz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 


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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 10/23/07 09:36, Matthew Vernon wrote:
> 
> On 23 Oct 2007, at 15:04, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> 
>> ti, 2007-10-23 kello 12:35 +0100, Matthew Vernon kirjoitti:
>>> The Authorized Version of the Bible isn't covered by Copyright in
>>> the
>>> conventional sense. The Queen's Printer (currently Cambridge
>>> University Press) has an exclusive commercial right to print the AV
>>> (and the BCP, but that's not relevant here) in England
>>
>> Would not a restriction on commercial use still be against the DFSG, and
>> the package therefore be problematic?
> 
> It's not quite that simple. You can't print and sell Bibles in the UK
> (unless you are CUP or OUP). Would a bomb-making text in Debian be
> non-free because the UK forbids you to print and sell it?

Importantly (maybe?), the right is to *print* the AV.  Is there a
mention, or assumption, that downloading as electronic file is the
same as printing it?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Isabel Drost]

On Tuesday 23 October 2007, Steve Greenland wrote:
> Mere local law shouldn't make a package DFSG non-free. I'd bet there are
> many packages in Debian whose distribution or use violates local law
> somewhere in the world.

Just a tiny example: I guess, Debian still contains many packages that contain 
software that might be considered "hacker tools" in German courts and thus 
might be forbidden under German law:

http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/90255

[...] It becomes an offence to create, sell, distribute or even aquire so 
called Hacker Tools that are built to conduct criminal acts like aquiring 
illegal access to protected data. It is feared by many that this might keep 
administrators and security experts from doing their job – i.e. from properly 
testing applications or networks to enhance security while on the other hand 
the blackhats don't really care that their choosen tool has been made illegal 
now. [...]

Isabel

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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Lars Wirzenius]

ti, 2007-10-23 kello 09:44 -0500, Steve Greenland kirjoitti:
> But the license on the package itself doesn't make that restriction.

If I have understood things correctly, in England (and the rest of the
UK?) the copyright is owned by the crown and therefore it is the crown
that sets the license. In the rest of the world, the work is in the
public domain. This is, to me, a different thing than local law saying,
for instance, that the Bible as a work is banned.

But don't trust me on this, I am merely speculating.

-- 
That which does not kill us makes us stranger


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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Matthew Vernon]

On 23 Oct 2007, at 15:04, Lars Wirzenius wrote:


ti, 2007-10-23 kello 12:35 +0100, Matthew Vernon kirjoitti:

The Authorized Version of the Bible isn't covered by Copyright in
the
conventional sense. The Queen's Printer (currently Cambridge
University Press) has an exclusive commercial right to print the AV
(and the BCP, but that's not relevant here) in England


Would not a restriction on commercial use still be against the  
DFSG, and

the package therefore be problematic?


It's not quite that simple. You can't print and sell Bibles in the UK  
(unless you are CUP or OUP). Would a bomb-making text in Debian be  
non-free because the UK forbids you to print and sell it?


Matthew

--
Matthew Vernon MA VetMB LGSM MRCVS
Farm Animal Epidemiology and Informatics Unit
Department of Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge
http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~mcv21/




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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 09:44:51AM -0500, Steve Greenland wrote:
> 
> But the license on the package itself doesn't make that restriction.
> Mere local law shouldn't make a package DFSG non-free. I'd bet there are
> many packages in Debian whose distribution or use violates local law
> somewhere in the world.
> 
Good point.  There are probably some clipart packages (or icons in some
packages) that show images which would be considered objectionable or in
violation of some local law somewhere (think of some Muslim countries
and the files in /usr/share/openclipart/png/food/beverages/alcohol/*).

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
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http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com


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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Steve Greenland]

On 23-Oct-07, 09:04 (CDT), Lars Wirzenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> ti, 2007-10-23 kello 12:35 +0100, Matthew Vernon kirjoitti:
> > The Authorized Version of the Bible isn't covered by Copyright in
> > the  
> > conventional sense. The Queen's Printer (currently Cambridge  
> > University Press) has an exclusive commercial right to print the AV  
> > (and the BCP, but that's not relevant here) in England
> 
> Would not a restriction on commercial use still be against the DFSG, and
> the package therefore be problematic?

But the license on the package itself doesn't make that restriction.
Mere local law shouldn't make a package DFSG non-free. I'd bet there are
many packages in Debian whose distribution or use violates local law
somewhere in the world.

Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net


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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Lars Wirzenius]

ti, 2007-10-23 kello 12:35 +0100, Matthew Vernon kirjoitti:
> The Authorized Version of the Bible isn't covered by Copyright in
> the  
> conventional sense. The Queen's Printer (currently Cambridge  
> University Press) has an exclusive commercial right to print the AV  
> (and the BCP, but that's not relevant here) in England

Would not a restriction on commercial use still be against the DFSG, and
the package therefore be problematic?

-- 
Fundamental truth #4: Typing URLs always introduces errors. Always copy
+paste.


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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Matthew Vernon]

Hi,

On 23 Oct 2007, at 11:52, Enrico Zini wrote:


On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 11:16:13AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:

Since I'm not at all familiar with the legacy of copyright laws  
around

the British Royal Family, I'm setting the severity to normal, using
'could' in the subject and Cc-ing debian-devel.  But I thought the  
issue

was worth raising.


[it may be worth noting that I am "upstream" for this package, as  
well as Debian maintainer]


The Authorized Version of the Bible isn't covered by Copyright in the  
conventional sense. The Queen's Printer (currently Cambridge  
University Press) has an exclusive commercial right to print the AV  
(and the BCP, but that's not relevant here) in England; the  
University Presses of Cambridge and Oxford University separately have  
the privilege to print the Bible[1]; Collins are probably not meant  
to print and sell Bibles in England, but no action has been taken  
against them. It's not at all clear whether electronic copies are  
covered.


Matthew

[1] http://www.btinternet.com/~akme/75cass1b.html
--
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Farm Animal Epidemiology and Informatics Unit
Department of Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge
http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~mcv21/




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Re: Bug#447712: Package could be non-free in the United Kingdom

[Enrico Zini]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 11:16:13AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:

> Since I'm not at all familiar with the legacy of copyright laws around
> the British Royal Family, I'm setting the severity to normal, using
> 'could' in the subject and Cc-ing debian-devel.  But I thought the issue
> was worth raising.

I've been told in #debian-devel that this has been reported before:

  http://bugs.debian.org/338077

The discussion didn't seem to reach a conclusive argument, and seemed to
have been closed somehow because of that:

  Tags set to: unreproducible, fixed Request was from MJ Ray <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Full text and rfc822 format available.

Probably this bug should be merged with 338077.

Could contacting http://www.opsi.gov.uk/about/contact-us/index.htm or
http://www.tso.co.uk/contact/ be a good idea to get the information
that was missing in the previous discussion?


Ciao,

Enrico

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