Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Steve Langasek skrev: On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 03:01:39PM +0200, Tomas Fasth wrote: Andreas Barth skrev: * Thijs Kinkhorst ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050802 13:41]: And even then, appearently the DAM works like this: I approve person X, let's check his box, but I'll add the account at some point later on (this takes weeks on average). When you check the box you might add the account aswell when you're at it, right? Just that the person who checks the reports is not root in Debian's ldap system. There is delegation and group access available in OpenLDAP. So, one would not need to have write access to the whole directory tree, only to the necessary branches. I'm amused that you think there's anything in Debian's LDAP directory *besides the user accounts themselves that you're proposing to give people access to* that would warrant this level of granular access control. I'm equally amused that you think there isn't. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ ldapsearch -x objectclass=* | grep dn: | cut -d ' ' - -f 2- | sort | uniq -t = -W 1 cn=LDAP Administrator,ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org dc=debian,dc=org gid=Debian,ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org host=auric,ou=hosts,dc=debian,dc=org ou=hosts,dc=debian,dc=org uid=93sam,ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org Thijs suggested to allow the DAM to create the account directly instead of just passing the stick on to yet another person causing yet more delays. You were implying that it can't be done without root access which I interpreted as giving write access to the whole database. My assertion was that it can be done by giving DAM write access to a specific branch in the tree, in this case the ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org branch. If it can be done and you just refuse do do it that way then say so instead of expressing amusement based on unfair generalisations. And if you feel uncomfortable to give DAM write access to ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org directly, then let DAM create new accounts in a sandbox node from where entries can be moved to the right place by a cron script that can be programmed to make sure no existing accounts is tampered with. - -- Tomas Fasth [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG Fingerprint: DC7B 9453 7F26 1BF9 6B21 9F90 C187 7355 9FE8 D504 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFC8KLjwYdzVZ/o1QQRApcRAJ4l4Pct4DdYI1X0ccrEkFCRrKq+ggCfbR5F vFNBPPdDTlpFAQI0ksRUsRs= =lv/i -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 12:56:36PM +0200, Tomas Fasth wrote: Steve Langasek skrev: On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 03:01:39PM +0200, Tomas Fasth wrote: Andreas Barth skrev: * Thijs Kinkhorst ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050802 13:41]: And even then, appearently the DAM works like this: I approve person X, let's check his box, but I'll add the account at some point later on (this takes weeks on average). When you check the box you might add the account aswell when you're at it, right? Just that the person who checks the reports is not root in Debian's ldap system. There is delegation and group access available in OpenLDAP. So, one would not need to have write access to the whole directory tree, only to the necessary branches. I'm amused that you think there's anything in Debian's LDAP directory *besides the user accounts themselves that you're proposing to give people access to* that would warrant this level of granular access control. I'm equally amused that you think there isn't. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ ldapsearch -x objectclass=* | grep dn: | cut -d ' ' - -f 2- | sort | uniq -t = -W 1 cn=LDAP Administrator,ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org dc=debian,dc=org gid=Debian,ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org host=auric,ou=hosts,dc=debian,dc=org ou=hosts,dc=debian,dc=org uid=93sam,ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org And which of these are you claiming it's worthwhile to protect from someone who has write access to the user DNs? I know quite well what data is stored in the LDAP directory, and I can't think of anything else that holds a candle to the amount of damage that person could do by editing the attributes on user DNs. Thijs suggested to allow the DAM to create the account directly instead of just passing the stick on to yet another person causing yet more delays. You were implying that it can't be done without root access I did not. Kindly re-read your own quote markers above. which I interpreted as giving write access to the whole database. More likely, the implication is that giving someone the necessary write access to LDAP is *equivalent* to giving them root access on the Debian servers. And if you feel uncomfortable to give DAM write access to ou=users,dc=debian,dc=org directly, then let DAM create new accounts in a sandbox node from where entries can be moved to the right place by a cron script that can be programmed to make sure no existing accounts is tampered with. You'd need more sanity checking than just preventing tampering with existing accounts. In any case, I hardly think it would be worth the effort. -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 04:12:40AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: More likely, the implication is that giving someone the necessary write access to LDAP is *equivalent* to giving them root access on the Debian servers. No, only if the person is allowed to write the uidNumber entry. You'd need more sanity checking than just preventing tampering with existing accounts. In any case, I hardly think it would be worth the effort. I have such a setup running. There are some people which are allowed to add items to the tree which are converted to real user objects by a script. They are not allowed to set uids/gids and generate groups. Bastian -- Pain is a thing of the mind. The mind can be controlled. -- Spock, Operation -- Annihilate! stardate 3287.2 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 10:42:17PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Moreno Garza [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have been in the whole NM process for more than 13 months now. I spent around 6 months with my AM, around another 6 to be approved by the DAM and I'm waiting now, since a month ago, for my account to be created. Yes, I also know some people have had longer times. The thing that makes me feel uncomfortable is how Debian cannot encourage people for helping the project with this. Motivation probably just leaves with the long time waiting (in my case, there is nothing else on my hands to do). People just loses faith. It is sad to see the process is more a matter of time, than capacity or work done, experience. And well, right now I feel so close but also so far, because of the uncertainty, to conclude my process. A Debian account isn't that essential. I had packages in Debian for at least a year before I was invited to join the project. The additional 11 months I waited in the NM queue didn't stop me doing useful work. Hi Roger, you seem to be aware of facts that have eluded other NMs. Can you point to how you aquired this info and how other have missed it. Many folks dont RFTM. If is not stated clearly in say a NM FAQ, should it? just asking. Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ ' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On 02/08/05, Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 03:31:36PM +1200, Nigel Jones wrote: On 02/08/05, Stepan Golosunov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 08:24:30PM +0200, Laszlo Boszormenyi wrote: Nothing. It was just a question, as Nikita sounds to be a female name, but as I'm not sure about it, I was just interested. At least for me, a Hungarian, it sounds like a female name. In Russia, Nikita is (exclusively) male name. Hmmm, can we maybe get back to the ON Topic part of this? Personally I think get a couple of active developers that have been around a little while that maintain a few packages and get them into the AM role, and move some of the AMs into a DAM role... Also: say that if an AM/DAM does not process x applications a month (reasonably fair amount (say 5) and allow for vaccations/sickness etc) then they may face removal, as Yaroslav Halchenko said, there are ~61 Hi Nigel, would it be helpful to have some kind of status check every 6mo. to ask the AM's if they have the available time to process N apps. Something like 'no time','vacation','accepting N applicants'. If folks know who is 'open for business', it eliminates the confusion as who to ask. Then again, I just realized that I have no idea how NM and AM get 'connected'. So maybe someone can point me to the DOCS on this. That sounds way better than what I suggested, but yeah. Cheers, kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ ' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC7wveRp+kG4Nu//URAu7jAJ4ib989xVtl7kHpY23eayZMcV19WwCdFBR8 rHlabRo1mYSKM32falSIcH8= =CZqP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- N Jones Blogging @ http://nigelj.blogspot.com Proud Debian FOSS User Debian Maintainer of: html2ps ipkungfu
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 02:03:09AM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote: A Debian account isn't that essential. I had packages in Debian for at least a year before I was invited to join the project. The additional 11 months I waited in the NM queue didn't stop me doing useful work. you seem to be aware of facts that have eluded other NMs. Can you point to how you aquired this info and how other have missed it. Many folks dont RFTM. If is not stated clearly in say a NM FAQ, should it? Hi Kevin, Sorry for the intrusion, I just want to support Roger's opinion and give a few hints as you requested. I think that NM FAQ would be of limited importance because all possible FAQ to appear in it are covered either in Debian policy or mentors FAQ and sponsor section is of particular interest http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html#sponsored_packages Indeed to do THE WORK it is not necessary to be a DD. It is just that for upload of packages into debian non-DD needs to interact with a sponsor. Also administrativa like voting can't be done by non-DD. Besides that I don't see any difficulties as to do packaging and to interact_with/influence the debian community P.S. I brought up the topic because I think the path to become DD should not be done in burocratic way which is characterized by a high ratio of waiting time to processing time. -- .-. =-- /v\ = Keep in touch// \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User^^-^^[17] pgpcZb7pahUsU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
* Nigel Jones ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050802 05:31]: Also: say that if an AM/DAM does not process x applications a month (reasonably fair amount (say 5) and allow for vaccations/sickness etc) then they may face removal I don't know if you've every worked as AM, but if you have other duties in Debian and perhaps even a life, then it is next to impossible to work on 5 applicants per month. And, BTW, is it not our problem to have too few AMs and you propose reducing their numbers even more? Even an AM that processes only one applicant at each time reduces the load of the queue in total (perhaps not as much as an AM that processes more than one, but that's still better than nothing). Now I'm not sure exactly how hard an AM's work is Yes, one could see that. Cheers, Andi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 03:31:36PM +1200, Nigel Jones wrote: Also: say that if an AM/DAM does not process x applications a month (reasonably fair amount (say 5) and allow for vaccations/sickness etc) then they may face removal, as Yaroslav Halchenko said, there are ~61 Hi Nigel, would it be helpful to have some kind of status check every 6mo. to ask the AM's if they have the available time to process N apps. Something like 'no time','vacation','accepting N applicants'. If folks know who is 'open for business', it eliminates the confusion as who to ask. That's not a problem at the moment and is worse than the current state. AMs can simply go to nm.d.o and use the Change Profile page to say how many applicants they want to have. It's nice that you want to help, but please don't make proposals to solve problems that don't exist. If I don't answer these mails here, I'll have to face accusations that I'm not communicative enough and that the NM process needs to be more transparent - OTOH, I had plans to work trough my AM backlog for ... errr ... right now. Marc -- Fachbegriffe der Informatik - Einfach erklärt 248: Virenwarnung MS Outlock wird mal wieder getestet. (Manfred Worm Schäfer) pgp7McciOiiIm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Nigel Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally I think get a couple of active developers that have been around a little while that maintain a few packages and get them into the AM role, and move some of the AMs into a DAM role... Right, because these people normally have loads of time to kill. Also: say that if an AM/DAM does not process x applications a month (reasonably fair amount (say 5) and allow for vaccations/sickness etc) then they may face removal, Sorry, but that's bullshit. Most applicants are not able to complete their application in less than two months, simply because they have other stuff to do. There are *very* few cases where people had the time to finish everything in less than four weeks. as Yaroslav Halchenko said, there are ~61 AM's, ... we have about 20 active AMs, no matter what the statistic page says. if each processed 3-4 applications a month (fairly) the queue could drop by 180+ in just a month, and that is only really 1 a week... Now I'm not sure exactly how hard an AM's work is, so lets make it 1 a fortnight, You have obviously no idea how much time is sucked up by AM work. Marc -- BOFH #140: LBNC (luser brain not connected) pgpdsn5Ac7R1Z.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 10:28:08AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: on 5 applicants per month. And, BTW, is it not our problem to have too Well, I can just say such AMs a big Thank you :-) few AMs and you propose reducing their numbers even more? Even an AM Now I'm not sure exactly how hard an AM's work is Yes, one could see that. So, Andreas is making the point that it is good to keep silent AMs on the list with hope that some of them can get at least 1 NM on-board and work with him/her... Then I have a better idea... It seems to me that any DD-professional is capable of performing AM duties, isn't it? Then I would say it might make sense to send an announcement to any DD with experience over X month and Y packages maintained if they want to be just considered for AM process. After that, any such DD would be informed about fresh meat NM which comes in the queue. To interest/intrigue any particular DD I would suggest to include a short (up to 100 words) resume from NM covering his interests/experience. Debian is a community project after all and personally, I get excited when I get in touch with people having similar interests. That is why I think that a short resume (after NM was advocated) + wider range of AMs can help to resolve the congestion. To get it more standardized it can be a simple form to fill in with interest/experience options to be marked. That might interest AMs/DDs in considering a specific applicant. -- .-. =-- /v\ = Keep in touch// \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User^^-^^[17] pgpM5RswflAVw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Yaroslav Halchenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 10:28:08AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: Now I'm not sure exactly how hard an AM's work is Yes, one could see that. So, Andreas is making the point that it is good to keep silent AMs on the list with hope that some of them can get at least 1 NM on-board and work with him/her... No, the point is that an AM who processes one applicant still helps, as you don't need to get someone else to do it. It's not as if we have a limit for the number of AMs. Then I have a better idea... It seems to me that any DD-professional is capable of performing AM duties, isn't it? More or less. Then I would say it might make sense to send an announcement to any DD with experience over X month and Y packages maintained if they want to be just considered for AM process. Right, because *new* developers have no idea about the NM process and just need the reminder that it exists to jump up and help. Sorry, the whole thing doesn't work this way: You need to invest a lot of time into AM work, so you need to care about it. Just asking every new developer will not help. Marc -- Fachbegriffe der Informatik - Einfach erklärt 9: GUI Ein Hintergrundbild und 12 Xterms (Kristian Köhntopp) pgpow4lMCqq4G.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Then I would say it might make sense to send an announcement to any DD with experience over X month and Y packages maintained if they want to be just considered for AM process. Right, because *new* developers have no idea about the NM process and just need the reminder that it exists to jump up and help. Sorry, the whole thing doesn't work this way: You need to invest a lot of time into AM work, so you need to care about it. Just asking every new developer will not help. I'm sorry to clarify myself. I gratefully respect time spent by any DD working on the project and tenfold time of any AM interfacing with NM -- NMs (like me probably :-)) can be pain in the butt to deal with. I was talking about X=12 and Y=5 which wouldn't name any such developer as *new* under my classification. My idea is just to delegate AM duties to the DDs mature enough and able/willing to help. Then all of the AMs who has the ability to perform AM duties and who are for some probably truly respectful reason are having 0 NM assigned with more than 50 NMs in the queue wouldn't look a bit awkward. /Sorry for the long and probably unparsable sentence.../ -- .-. =-- /v\ = Keep in touch// \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User^^-^^[17] pgplzeuygFPcU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, August 2, 2005 10:28, Andreas Barth wrote: And, BTW, is it not our problem to have too few AMs While I can agree that there are too few AMs, the whole process itself seems pretty bureaucratic with room for improvement. Once you've completed the AM stage, this still has to happen: - AM checks application. - Front Desk checks application. - DAM checks application. - DAM creates account. (Source: nm.debian.org) So, once the AM, who has done a thorough review of the candidate, then you still need to pass three steps. Why? Once you've reached the AM-approved stage, you've already got: - a good review by an existing developer (advocate) - an assurance from a person very experienced with Debian and with handling new developers - a proof of identity Well, I could understand that it's desired to have one last check by a third person at the end of the whole process. But why do the FD and DAM have to check separately? And why is approval by DAM not equal to account creation? It seems to me that the account creation step could be fully automated: checking the box approved by DAM could trigger an insert into the LDAP database thereby creating the account. Thijs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Yaroslav Halchenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then I would say it might make sense to send an announcement to any DD with experience over X month and Y packages maintained if they want to be just considered for AM process. Right, because *new* developers have no idea about the NM process and just need the reminder that it exists to jump up and help. Sorry, the whole thing doesn't work this way: You need to invest a lot of time into AM work, so you need to care about it. Just asking every new developer will not help. I'm sorry to clarify myself. I gratefully respect time spent by any DD working on the project and tenfold time of any AM interfacing with NM -- NMs (like me probably :-)) can be pain in the butt to deal with. I was talking about X=12 and Y=5 which wouldn't name any such developer as *new* under my classification. My idea is just to delegate AM duties to the DDs mature enough and able/willing to help. That wasn't my point. Not everybody with a few packages and a few months old account is a good AM, so you can't ping anybody. These people need to be interested and care about the NM process. Marc -- BOFH #88: Boss' kid fucked up the machine pgpDkDMfTVKZd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
* Thijs Kinkhorst ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050802 12:19]: And why is approval by DAM not equal to account creation? It seems to me that the account creation step could be fully automated: checking the box approved by DAM could trigger an insert into the LDAP database thereby creating the account. because that would mean that the php-script has root access to the ldap database, which is equivalent to be root on all debian.org-machines. Also, the nm.d.o-pages don't have all necessary information for the account. Actually creating the account in the LDAP is BTW not taking as much time as you might consider, it is just that only very few persons have the privilege to change such information in the ldap database for obvious reasons. Cheers, Andi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Thijs Kinkhorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, August 2, 2005 10:28, Andreas Barth wrote: And, BTW, is it not our problem to have too few AMs While I can agree that there are too few AMs, the whole process itself seems pretty bureaucratic with room for improvement. Once you've completed the AM stage, this still has to happen: - AM checks application. - Front Desk checks application. - DAM checks application. - DAM creates account. (Source: nm.debian.org) So, once the AM, who has done a thorough review of the candidate, then you still need to pass three steps. Why? Once you've reached the AM-approved stage, you've already got: - a good review by an existing developer (advocate) It would be nice if all advocates would actually check that the applicant is apt to become a developer: The high number of rejections (by the AM) shows that this doesn't work. - an assurance from a person very experienced with Debian and with handling new developers Right, because all AMs are very experienced with new developers, as they have all processed like 20 applicants or so in 4 months. Well, I could understand that it's desired to have one last check by a third person at the end of the whole process. But why do the FD and DAM have to check separately? Because the FD checks that the report is formally OK (and also gives a bit of feedback to the AM and applicant), while the DAM checks from a Do we want to give a security hole to this applicant point of view. And why is approval by DAM not equal to account creation? It seems to me that the account creation step could be fully automated: checking the box approved by DAM could trigger an insert into the LDAP database thereby creating the account. (1) Account creation needs a bit more than that, as the applicant's key needs to be added to the keyring (2) WTF? You want to give LDAP write access to a PHP script? Marc -- BOFH #149: Dew on the telephone lines. pgpfyCd8eNzQ8.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, August 2, 2005 13:11, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: - a good review by an existing developer (advocate) It would be nice if all advocates would actually check that the applicant is apt to become a developer: The high number of rejections (by the AM) shows that this doesn't work. This is more of an education question then: how do we make sure advocates know what they're doing? Maybe an advocate has to give some proof, e.g. I've co-maintained package x with this candidate for months and he did a good job or I've sponsored quite some uploads and all these packages were well done. Is there feedback provided to those advocates who approve bad prospects? - an assurance from a person very experienced with Debian and with handling new developers Right, because all AMs are very experienced with new developers, as they have all processed like 20 applicants or so in 4 months. I don't see how you can think that I ever claimed that. Well, I could understand that it's desired to have one last check by a third person at the end of the whole process. But why do the FD and DAM have to check separately? Because the FD checks that the report is formally OK (and also gives a bit of feedback to the AM and applicant), while the DAM checks from a Do we want to give a security hole to this applicant point of view. I don't see how this explains that these tasks can't be done by a single group of people. If you're checking a report out, you could either check some points and leave other points to be checked by another part of the process, or just check the whole thing at once. The last one makes more sense to me. And why is approval by DAM not equal to account creation? It seems to me that the account creation step could be fully automated: checking the box approved by DAM could trigger an insert into the LDAP database thereby creating the account. (1) Account creation needs a bit more than that, as the applicant's key needs to be added to the keyring (2) WTF? You want to give LDAP write access to a PHP script? You don't have to give the script write access to accomplish that. You could also use a pull system that periodically (nightly?) checks which new developers have been approved and add them from that side. And even then, appearently the DAM works like this: I approve person X, let's check his box, but I'll add the account at some point later on (this takes weeks on average). When you check the box you might add the account aswell when you're at it, right? Or what about this: as DAM, I've checked his application, everything OK, so I create the account. The NM-system will then show DAM-approved for this candidate. Thijs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
* Thijs Kinkhorst ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050802 13:41]: And even then, appearently the DAM works like this: I approve person X, let's check his box, but I'll add the account at some point later on (this takes weeks on average). When you check the box you might add the account aswell when you're at it, right? Just that the person who checks the reports is not root in Debian's ldap system. So, one person checks the reports, and then marks it on the web pages and sends mail to another person who then adds the accounts. Cheers, Andi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
i tried once or twice to volunteer, but i failed... i don't remember why just my two cents -- Fred On 8/2/05, Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Thijs Kinkhorst ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050802 13:41]: And even then, appearently the DAM works like this: I approve person X, let's check his box, but I'll add the account at some point later on (this takes weeks on average). When you check the box you might add the account aswell when you're at it, right? Just that the person who checks the reports is not root in Debian's ldap system. So, one person checks the reports, and then marks it on the web pages and sends mail to another person who then adds the accounts. Cheers, Andi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Fred
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, August 2, 2005 13:44, Andreas Barth wrote: * Thijs Kinkhorst ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050802 13:41]: And even then, appearently the DAM works like this: I approve person X, let's check his box, but I'll add the account at some point later on (this takes weeks on average). When you check the box you might add the account aswell when you're at it, right? Just that the person who checks the reports is not root in Debian's ldap system. So, one person checks the reports, and then marks it on the web pages and sends mail to another person who then adds the accounts. Is this a bug or a feature? THijs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Em Ter, 2005-08-02 às 04:46 -0400, Yaroslav Halchenko escreveu: Then I have a better idea... It seems to me that any DD-professional is capable of performing AM duties, isn't it? Then I would say it might make sense to send an announcement to any DD with experience over X month and Y packages maintained if they want to be just considered for AM process. I think I have an even better idea! It would be very nice if people would only voice their opinions on a problem after getting in touch with the affected part of Debian for some time, having felt this way its real problems and needs. The amount of non-feasible and non-helpful ideas being thrown in the air these days just seems to be very big. That certainly makes debian-devel a PITA to read. Nothing personal, nothing specific about you, this is just a random selected message to reply with my small suggestion. See ya, -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha http://people.debian.org/~kov Debian: http://www.debian.org * http://www.debian-br.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Barth skrev: * Thijs Kinkhorst ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050802 13:41]: And even then, appearently the DAM works like this: I approve person X, let's check his box, but I'll add the account at some point later on (this takes weeks on average). When you check the box you might add the account aswell when you're at it, right? Just that the person who checks the reports is not root in Debian's ldap system. There is delegation and group access available in OpenLDAP. So, one would not need to have write access to the whole directory tree, only to the necessary branches. Also, this could very well be handled the same way as .commands on ftp-master.d.o, that is, by requiring valid signatures of ldap commands in ldif format from a limited number of people operating on a restricted part of the ldap tree. Just a thought, no flames please :) // Tomas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFC726ywYdzVZ/o1QQRAv8tAJ9gBsOJ6j+xqL1wR1ezmtsnnzFxvgCfaKFE zy5shd7inv3al0LliXc6XcY= =hUtq -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: Indeed to do THE WORK it is not necessary to be a DD. It is just that for upload of packages into debian non-DD needs to interact with a sponsor. Also administrativa like voting can't be done by non-DD. Besides that I don't see any difficulties as to do packaging and to interact_with/influence the debian community This is free software. Personally, my kicks come from knowing people use what I've done. The long delays involved with sponsored uploads, and even more when new packages are involved, are hurting the fun, and ultimately, the incentive to contribute. Don't get me wrong. I am not in the least bit resentful to my sponsor when things get slow. I realize full well he is also busy, and has other things to do. Isn't that just the point, though? I wish to become a DD, not because I don't think I can get my packages into Debian otherwise, but because I want to help the project. It seems that the lack of time everybody has is a self aggravating problem. No time - Longer time to approve new DDs - People have no time. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. http://www.lingnu.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
It's a pretty theory but it fails to account for reality. On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 12:18:08PM +0200, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: On Tue, August 2, 2005 10:28, Andreas Barth wrote: And, BTW, is it not our problem to have too few AMs While I can agree that there are too few AMs, the whole process itself seems pretty bureaucratic with room for improvement. Once you've completed the AM stage, this still has to happen: - AM checks application. - Front Desk checks application. - DAM checks application. - DAM creates account. (Source: nm.debian.org) So, once the AM, who has done a thorough review of the candidate, then you still need to pass three steps. Why? Once you've reached the AM-approved stage, you've already got: - a good review by an existing developer (advocate) Advocates are utterly useless. Anybody, absolutely *anybody*, no matter how much of a stupid MCSE-waving windows nutcase they might be, can get advocated, and people do routinely get advocated who have no hope of passing. The flaw in the system is simple and obvious: in order to get advocated, you must find precisely one developer in a thousand who thinks they should sent a brief fluffy mail about you. - an assurance from a person very experienced with Debian and with handling new developers AMs aren't much better, as a group. The FD checks their applications so as not to waste the DAM's time reviewing bogus ones, and the DAM checks them to filter out people who shouldn't get in. The reason why we need both these checks is most simply explained by pointing out that both of them reject a significant number of applicants - if we didn't have them, people would get in who shouldn't, or the DAM's already limited time would be wasted, slowing the process down more. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
[Andrew Suffield] AMs aren't much better, as a group. The FD checks their applications so as not to waste the DAM's time reviewing bogus ones, and the DAM checks them to filter out people who shouldn't get in. The reason why we need both these checks is most simply explained by pointing out that both of them reject a significant number of applicants - if we didn't have them, people would get in who shouldn't, or the DAM's already limited time would be wasted, slowing the process down more. You seem to assume that all rejections are correct, and get rid of some people which should not be accepted as debian developers, while all approvals are suspect and might let through a person which should have been rejected. Is this correct? Do you have any good arguments why it isn't the other way around, that some of the rejections get rid of people which could have done a great job as a debian developer? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Petter Reinholdtsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [Andrew Suffield] AMs aren't much better, as a group. The FD checks their applications so as not to waste the DAM's time reviewing bogus ones, and the DAM checks them to filter out people who shouldn't get in. The reason why we need both these checks is most simply explained by pointing out that both of them reject a significant number of applicants - if we didn't have them, people would get in who shouldn't, or the DAM's already limited time would be wasted, slowing the process down more. You seem to assume that all rejections are correct, and get rid of some people which should not be accepted as debian developers, while all approvals are suspect and might let through a person which should have been rejected. Is this correct? Do you have any good arguments why it isn't the other way around, that some of the rejections get rid of people which could have done a great job as a debian developer? Have you read the reasons for holds and rejections at the FD and DAM stage? Really, folks, quite a bit of this information is public. I admit that, being in NM myself, I have had more reason to go poking around on the web site and reading up on various records, but it's worth spending some time on the site before participating in these sorts of threads. Like Andrew says, the three stages of checks are only pointless bureaucracy if the last two steps are rubber stamps. As you can see clearly from the NM site, they're not. Given that, you have to dig a little deeper and figure out why people may get all the way through the AM stage but still not get approved. Looking at the records on the site, you'll find that, of the three current front desk holds, two are for incomplete skills testing and one is for a key problem. Particularly given the rest of this thread and the desire to see more people jump in to be AMs, you do need this sort of check by a third party. Not all AMs are experienced; not all AMs are going to remember everything. Looking at the DAM holds, you'll see that most of them are for lack of activity. Now, you might argue (reasonably) that the current extended length of the process is partly to blame for that, but on the other hand, joining Debian really is a committment. While I wouldn't say that it's as easy to participate in Debian without being a DD as some of the other folks on this list, it most certainly is possible. I'll also point out that, for every other open source project I've been involved in, it's taken at *least* a year of steady activity on the project and regular patch submission before I got direct commit access. I wouldn't expect Debian to be that different. I do think that the amount of time NM takes at the moment is a bit too long, but I don't think it should be quick. I think it's important to verify that people really *want* to be DDs before approving them, and while sheer time lag isn't necessarily the most friendly way of doing this, it can still be rather effective. -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 15:24 +0100, Andrew Suffield wrote: The FD checks their applications so as not to waste the DAM's time reviewing bogus ones, and the DAM checks them to filter out people who shouldn't get in. Your statement rests on the assuption that somehow the DAM's time is more valuable than the FD's time. If we would just make everyone currently in FD a DAM, then then the check could be done by a single person. To be perfectly clear - I don't object to the checks per se, but rather to those checks being done by different institutions. Andreas Barth wrote in this thread: So, one person checks the reports, and then marks it on the web pages and sends mail to another person who then adds the accounts. Please explain how this isn't overly cumbersome. Currently a report passes through FD, then to DAM-not-authorised, and finally to DAM-authorised. What if these groups would be melted into one, and each member could take an incoming application, review it, and either reject or approve the account? Thijs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On 8/2/05, Thijs Kinkhorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Currently a report passes through FD, then to DAM-not-authorised, and finally to DAM-authorised. What if these groups would be melted into one, and each member could take an incoming application, review it, and either reject or approve the account? Multiple persons often see more bugs/error/mistakes/whatever then one person. Won't this decrease 'quality'?
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Olaf van der Spek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 8/2/05, Thijs Kinkhorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Currently a report passes through FD, then to DAM-not-authorised, and finally to DAM-authorised. What if these groups would be melted into one, and each member could take an incoming application, review it, and either reject or approve the account? Multiple persons often see more bugs/error/mistakes/whatever then one person. Won't this decrease 'quality'? Yes, but it will obviously increase quantity. And that is, as we all know, a good thing! Marc -- Fachbegriffe der Informatik - Einfach erklärt 40: overdrive processor Prozessor mit übertriebenem Preis-Leistungsverhältnis (Holger Reif) pgpwZY4kI11n5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 04:36:28PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: Do you have any good arguments why it isn't the other way around, that some of the rejections get rid of people which could have done a great job as a debian developer? How about 'not second guessing people without cause'? I'm not going to argue that the rejections being made are bad ones. If you are, this is the wrong place to do it. If you're not, then you don't have a point here. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
[Andrew Suffield] How about 'not second guessing people without cause'? Sounds like a good idea. I am not sure how this comment is connected to the message you replied to. I tried to avoid second guessing you, by asking the following question: You seem to assume that all rejections are correct, and get rid of some people which should not be accepted as debian developers, while all approvals are suspect and might let through a person which should have been rejected. Is this correct? You choose to ignore it, so I am still not sure about your opinion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 09:35:24PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: [Andrew Suffield] How about 'not second guessing people without cause'? Sounds like a good idea. I am not sure how this comment is connected to the message you replied to. It was an answer to the quoted question. I tried to avoid second guessing you, by asking the following question: You seem to assume that all rejections are correct, and get rid of some people which should not be accepted as debian developers, while all approvals are suspect and might let through a person which should have been rejected. Is this correct? You choose to ignore it, so I am still not sure about your opinion. That question is irrelevant to my point and furthermore it's a distraction, so I will continue to ignore it. I have no interest in the tangent you are trying to redirect towards. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 03:01:39PM +0200, Tomas Fasth wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Barth skrev: * Thijs Kinkhorst ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050802 13:41]: And even then, appearently the DAM works like this: I approve person X, let's check his box, but I'll add the account at some point later on (this takes weeks on average). When you check the box you might add the account aswell when you're at it, right? Just that the person who checks the reports is not root in Debian's ldap system. There is delegation and group access available in OpenLDAP. So, one would not need to have write access to the whole directory tree, only to the necessary branches. I'm amused that you think there's anything in Debian's LDAP directory *besides the user accounts themselves that you're proposing to give people access to* that would warrant this level of granular access control. -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Yaroslav Halchenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] I'm not sure if any additional AMs are necessary -- there is a sufficient quantity of them to cover all current DD applicants... No. Marc -- BOFH #406: Bad cafeteria food landed all the sysadmins in the hospital. pgpgHBZnDYZXM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
* Yaroslav Halchenko ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050801 12:20]: I'm not sure if any additional AMs are necessary -- there is a sufficient quantity of them to cover all current DD applicants... We would need more good AMs, we have too few. Cheers, Andi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 01:58:55PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Yaroslav Halchenko ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050801 12:20]: I'm not sure if any additional AMs are necessary -- there is a sufficient quantity of them to cover all current DD applicants... We would need more good AMs, we have too few. What are the requirements to become a AM? Regards, Neil -- __ .Ž `. [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' ! `. `Ž gpg: B345BDD3 `- Please don't cc, I'm subscribed to the list signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
* Neil McGovern ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050801 14:02]: On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 01:58:55PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Yaroslav Halchenko ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050801 12:20]: I'm not sure if any additional AMs are necessary -- there is a sufficient quantity of them to cover all current DD applicants... We would need more good AMs, we have too few. What are the requirements to become a AM? Be a debian developer, know about Debian more than the average, have experience with QA or so (because you need to check a lot with other people's packages) and a known good record, have time to burn, contact front desk. Cheers, Andi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Awaiting AM assignment 140 days Awaiting DAM Approval184 days I'm already waiting for DAM approval for almost 6 months, and I'm ready to wait more (after all, there is a psyhological difference between a day and a month, but not between 6 and 12 months). The only thing that makes me feel uncomfortable now is that I'm not able to upload packages that fix bugs timely - communication with sponsor leads to very long overhead - probably because of vacation season... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Hi, * Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-01 15:16]: * Neil McGovern ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050801 14:02]: On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 01:58:55PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Yaroslav Halchenko ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050801 12:20]: I'm not sure if any additional AMs are necessary -- there is a sufficient quantity of them to cover all current DD applicants... We would need more good AMs, we have too few. What are the requirements to become a AM? Be a debian developer, know about Debian more than the average, have experience with QA or so (because you need to check a lot with other people's packages) and a known good record, have time to burn, contact front desk. And to be dd at least 6 months afaik. Regards Nico -- Nico Golde - JAB: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | GPG: 0x73647CFF http://www.ngolde.de | http://www.muttng.org | http://grml.org VIM has two modes - the one in which it beeps and the one in which it doesn't -- encrypted mail preferred -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Hi, * Nico Golde ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050801 15:21]: * Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-01 15:16]: * Neil McGovern ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050801 14:02]: On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 01:58:55PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Yaroslav Halchenko ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050801 12:20]: I'm not sure if any additional AMs are necessary -- there is a sufficient quantity of them to cover all current DD applicants... We would need more good AMs, we have too few. What are the requirements to become a AM? Be a debian developer, know about Debian more than the average, have experience with QA or so (because you need to check a lot with other people's packages) and a known good record, have time to burn, contact front desk. And to be dd at least 6 months afaik. On the very day I got my account, Frontdesk asked me in IRC whether I want to become AM. That speaks against that theory. :) But people going to become AM should have a broader experience in Debian than just maintaining one package. There are multiple ways to get that, and of course, being in the game a bit longer helps there. Cheers, Andi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Hi Nikita, (Are you a girl maybe?) On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 15:55 +0400, Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: The only thing that makes me feel uncomfortable now is that I'm not able to upload packages that fix bugs timely - communication with sponsor leads to very long overhead - probably because of vacation season... Well, I do not know which package is it, but if it isn't too complicated, then please contact me and I may help you out. Regards, Laszlo/GCS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
I notice that some of the statistics at http://nm.debian.org/ don't make sense. Mode Median Average Max CountDaysDaysDaysDays New Maintainers processed 720 347 347 343 343 The mode can't be greater than the maximum. And I know that the maximum is larger than 343. -- Thomas Hood -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 05:03:44PM +0200, Thomas Hood wrote: I notice that some of the statistics at http://nm.debian.org/ don't make sense. They are in fact complete nonsense, because of the way they're calculated. I keep meaning to do something about it but never have time. As it stands, they don't really say anything useful. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Laszlo Boszormenyi wrote: Hi Nikita, (Are you a girl maybe?) What does that have to do with anything? Stop being male-chauvanistic. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 15:23 +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: On the very day I got my account, Frontdesk asked me in IRC whether I want to become AM. That speaks against that theory. :) Apart from that it's not just a theory. ;) Kind regards, Philipp Kern -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Thomas Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I notice that some of the statistics at http://nm.debian.org/ don't make sense. Mode Median Average Max CountDaysDaysDaysDays New Maintainers processed 720 347 347 343 343 The mode can't be greater than the maximum. And I know that the maximum is larger than 343. -- Thomas Hood The numbers are also derived (all? some?) only from entries that have completed that step. So anybody that gets rejected or is still in the queue isn't counted. Only accepted DDs are in that specific line I believe. MfG Goswin PS: Does that suggest that if you haven't made it in 343 days then you won't? :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 11:35:33AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Laszlo Boszormenyi wrote: Hi Nikita, (Are you a girl maybe?) What does that have to do with anything? Stop being male-chauvanistic. Maybe Laszlo wants to know which would be the proper pronoun reference. It is better to ask and be certain than to err and offend. -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto pgpVcjFwTvKkJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 11:35 -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Laszlo Boszormenyi wrote: Hi Nikita, (Are you a girl maybe?) What does that have to do with anything? Stop being male-chauvanistic. Nothing. It was just a question, as Nikita sounds to be a female name, but as I'm not sure about it, I was just interested. At least for me, a Hungarian, it sounds like a female name. Please describe the meaning of 'male-chauvanistic'; my english is not so good and I could not find it in the dictionary I was looking into. If possible, be in private, don't flood -devel. Just to get it straight: the question was in brackets; I help her/him anyway if his/her package(s) is not that complicated=I can build it without too much dependencies, can try it out that it still works and so on. For example I can handle a vim/lincity/mono like package, but not an other big and special package, which needs special files/knowledge to run like a raytrace/mathematical package. Regards, Laszlo/GCS signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 08:24:30PM +0200, Laszlo Boszormenyi wrote: On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 11:35 -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Laszlo Boszormenyi wrote: Hi Nikita, (Are you a girl maybe?) What does that have to do with anything? Stop being male-chauvanistic. Nothing. It was just a question, as Nikita sounds to be a female name, but as I'm not sure about it, I was just interested. At least for me, a Hungarian, it sounds like a female name. It does to me, too, but they always claimed that Nikita Khrouchtev was a male. Please describe the meaning of 'male-chauvanistic'; my english is not so good and I could not find it in the dictionary I was looking into. I think he meant chauvinistic. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism -- Lionel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 01:51:53PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: I'm not sure if any additional AMs are necessary -- there is a sufficient quantity of them to cover all current DD applicants... No. Indeed - I counted grave stones as well. So there are 61 registered AMs. And just 39 from them are active (ie having ND assigned and not yet waiting for DAM) with next AMs being most active: 19 he 11 joerg 7 sfrost 6 maxx 6 csmall 5 pyro So there are 12 AMs which are listed and which do not carry any load, although the load is there and knocking the door :-) -- .-. =-- /v\ = Keep in touch// \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User^^-^^[17] pgp5h18jJCuaK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 01:59:12PM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: (Are you a girl maybe?) What does that have to do with anything? Stop being male-chauvanistic. Maybe Laszlo wants to know which would be the proper pronoun reference. It is better to ask and be certain than to err and offend. Another reason to include sex in db.debian.org which seems to be easy to implement, and not implemented becouse of uknown reasons. regards fEnIo -- ,''`. Bartosz Fenski | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | pgp:0x13fefc40 | irc:fEnIo : :' : 32-050 Skawina - Glowackiego 3/15 - w. malopolskie - Poland `. `' phone:+48602383548 | proud Debian maintainer and user `- http://skawina.eu.org | jid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | rlu:172001 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On 20050801T153347-0400, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: So there are 12 AMs which are listed and which do not carry any load, although the load is there and knocking the door :-) I don't know how many of those are in my position: I am practically a newbie as an AM and as such I will carry little weight until I have the procedure down for myself, which takes full processing of one candidate. After that, I will assess my limit as to how much load I can carry, and I will then start taking on more candidates. I would be surprised if I was the only new AM after the NM talk in Debconf :) -- Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho, Debian developer http://kaijanaho.info/antti-juhani/blog/en/debian signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On 20050801T135912-0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Maybe Laszlo wants to know which would be the proper pronoun reference. Ey is good for everybody, even the genderqueer. :) (Tip: ey talks to em about eir stuff) -- Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho, Debian developer http://kaijanaho.info/antti-juhani/blog/en/debian signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 15:55 +0400, Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: I'm already waiting for DAM approval for almost 6 months, and I'm ready to wait more (after all, there is a psyhological difference between a day and a month, but not between 6 and 12 months). The only thing that makes me feel uncomfortable now is that I'm not able to upload packages that fix bugs timely - communication with sponsor leads to very long overhead - probably because of vacation season... Actually, the same for me, almost. I have been in the whole NM process for more than 13 months now. I spent around 6 months with my AM, around another 6 to be approved by the DAM and I'm waiting now, since a month ago, for my account to be created. Yes, I also know some people have had longer times. The thing that makes me feel uncomfortable is how Debian cannot encourage people for helping the project with this. Motivation probably just leaves with the long time waiting (in my case, there is nothing else on my hands to do). People just loses faith. It is sad to see the process is more a matter of time, than capacity or work done, experience. And well, right now I feel so close but also so far, because of the uncertainty, to conclude my process. -- David Moreno Garza [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.damog.net/ Those who can't write, write help files. GPG: C671257D - 6EF6 C284 C95D 78F6 0B78 FFD3 981C 5FD7 C671 257D -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 03:49:33PM -0500, David Moreno Garza wrote: On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 15:55 +0400, Nikita V. Youshchenko wrote: I'm already waiting for DAM approval for almost 6 months, and I'm ready to wait more (after all, there is a psyhological difference between a day and a month, but not between 6 and 12 months). The only thing that makes me feel uncomfortable now is that I'm not able to upload packages that fix bugs timely - communication with sponsor leads to very long overhead - probably because of vacation season... Actually, the same for me, almost. I have been in the whole NM process for more than 13 months now. I spent around 6 months with my AM, around another 6 to be approved by the DAM and I'm waiting now, since a month ago, for my account to be created. Yes, I also know some people have had longer times. The thing that makes me feel uncomfortable is how Debian cannot encourage people for helping the project with this. Motivation probably just leaves with the long time waiting (in my case, there is nothing else on my hands to do). People just loses faith. It is sad to see the process is more a matter of time, than capacity or work done, experience. And well, right now I feel so close but also so far, because of the uncertainty, to conclude my process. I will have to nod in agreement. Although it has only been a couple of months since I entered the NM queue, looking at how long many of the candidates ahead of me have been in the queue is rather disheartening. I plan to stick it out, but I am sure that there others who are not willing to wait so long. -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto pgpVEcTrCRARp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
Yaroslav Halchenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 01:51:53PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: I'm not sure if any additional AMs are necessary -- there is a sufficient quantity of them to cover all current DD applicants... No. Indeed - I counted grave stones as well. So there are 61 registered AMs. And just 39 from them are active (ie having ND assigned and not yet waiting for DAM) with next AMs being most active: 19 he 11 joerg Well, both Joerg and me want to reduce the number of applicants we're processing at the same time, so more AMs would really be helpful. The problem is that Application Managers need to be able to invest some time on a regular basis *and* know a lot about Debian Policy, Packaging and QA. That's the reason for the usual AMs should be DDs for 6 months. We know that this is very general, but it allows people to gain experience as mentors and sponsors. Sometimes, we ignore it - when people have shown their skills in the NM checks, for example. It's not easy to see how well someone will work as Application Manager before they actually do it. AMs who used to be very responsive, friendly and tried to explain everything tend to get bored by the repetition; others get more experience or learn new stuff and become better AMs after some time. Marc -- BOFH #280: Traceroute says that there is a routing problem in the backbone. It's not our problem. pgpFNbOhCthLl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Moreno Garza [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have been in the whole NM process for more than 13 months now. I spent around 6 months with my AM, around another 6 to be approved by the DAM and I'm waiting now, since a month ago, for my account to be created. Yes, I also know some people have had longer times. The thing that makes me feel uncomfortable is how Debian cannot encourage people for helping the project with this. Motivation probably just leaves with the long time waiting (in my case, there is nothing else on my hands to do). People just loses faith. It is sad to see the process is more a matter of time, than capacity or work done, experience. And well, right now I feel so close but also so far, because of the uncertainty, to conclude my process. A Debian account isn't that essential. I had packages in Debian for at least a year before I was invited to join the project. The additional 11 months I waited in the NM queue didn't stop me doing useful work. - -- Roger Leigh Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net/ Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://www.debian.org/ GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848. Please sign and encrypt your mail. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.8 http://mailcrypt.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQFC7pcAVcFcaSW/uEgRAk7BAJ4808h6laNdShE2R61O1ZjYXB1xwACglWtA 5MY3affmydjtXYpAkeZ9ryU= =+c2m -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 08:24:30PM +0200, Laszlo Boszormenyi wrote: Nothing. It was just a question, as Nikita sounds to be a female name, but as I'm not sure about it, I was just interested. At least for me, a Hungarian, it sounds like a female name. In Russia, Nikita is (exclusively) male name. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On 02/08/05, Stepan Golosunov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 08:24:30PM +0200, Laszlo Boszormenyi wrote: Nothing. It was just a question, as Nikita sounds to be a female name, but as I'm not sure about it, I was just interested. At least for me, a Hungarian, it sounds like a female name. In Russia, Nikita is (exclusively) male name. Hmmm, can we maybe get back to the ON Topic part of this? Personally I think get a couple of active developers that have been around a little while that maintain a few packages and get them into the AM role, and move some of the AMs into a DAM role... Also: say that if an AM/DAM does not process x applications a month (reasonably fair amount (say 5) and allow for vaccations/sickness etc) then they may face removal, as Yaroslav Halchenko said, there are ~61 AM's, if each processed 3-4 applications a month (fairly) the queue could drop by 180+ in just a month, and that is only really 1 a week... Now I'm not sure exactly how hard an AM's work is, so lets make it 1 a fortnight, and it's ~ 90 processed by AM's in a month - more reasonable, and most likely enough to get the backlogs sorted out. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- N Jones Blogging @ http://nigelj.blogspot.com Proud Debian FOSS User Debian Maintainer of: html2ps ipkungfu
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 11:19:46PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: Yaroslav Halchenko [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 01:51:53PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: I'm not sure if any additional AMs are necessary -- there is a sufficient quantity of them to cover all current DD applicants... No. Indeed - I counted grave stones as well. So there are 61 registered AMs. And just 39 from them are active (ie having ND assigned and not yet waiting for DAM) with next AMs being most active: 19 he 11 joerg Well, both Joerg and me want to reduce the number of applicants we're processing at the same time, so more AMs would really be helpful. The problem is that Application Managers need to be able to invest some time on a regular basis *and* know a lot about Debian Policy, Packaging and QA. That's the reason for the usual AMs should be DDs for 6 months. We know that this is very general, but it allows people to gain experience as mentors and sponsors. Sometimes, we ignore it - when people have shown their skills in the NM checks, for example. It's not easy to see how well someone will work as Application Manager before they actually do it. AMs who used to be very responsive, friendly and tried to explain everything tend to get bored by the repetition; Hi 'HE' (one day I shall find the origin of this), If AM's repeatedly answer the same questions, then have those answers been made into a FAQ(not having googled for an answer)? (if so, could you point me to its location). Just curious (as one day I may get there x-)) Cheers, Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ ' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: fresh blood gets congested: long way to become DD
On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 03:31:36PM +1200, Nigel Jones wrote: On 02/08/05, Stepan Golosunov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 08:24:30PM +0200, Laszlo Boszormenyi wrote: Nothing. It was just a question, as Nikita sounds to be a female name, but as I'm not sure about it, I was just interested. At least for me, a Hungarian, it sounds like a female name. In Russia, Nikita is (exclusively) male name. Hmmm, can we maybe get back to the ON Topic part of this? Personally I think get a couple of active developers that have been around a little while that maintain a few packages and get them into the AM role, and move some of the AMs into a DAM role... Also: say that if an AM/DAM does not process x applications a month (reasonably fair amount (say 5) and allow for vaccations/sickness etc) then they may face removal, as Yaroslav Halchenko said, there are ~61 Hi Nigel, would it be helpful to have some kind of status check every 6mo. to ask the AM's if they have the available time to process N apps. Something like 'no time','vacation','accepting N applicants'. If folks know who is 'open for business', it eliminates the confusion as who to ask. Then again, I just realized that I have no idea how NM and AM get 'connected'. So maybe someone can point me to the DOCS on this. Cheers, kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! `$' $' $ $ _ ,d$$$g$ ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b ,$P' `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$' `$ $ ' `$ $$' `$ $$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P $ $$ `$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$ `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $. ,$. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
