Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Steven Hanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] immo vero scripsit Just because it seems at the moment that too many translation notifications are being generated for them to be placed into the bts I wonder if it is overkill/added complexity to try to use something else, as I would assume the number of translation notifications happening will not be so high permanently. Don't assume. Take a diff of Packages.gz and see how many of the original text seem to change every day, and then talk. There will be quite a lot of translations, and reuploading, and other things, after things have settled down, as it were. regards, junichi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 03:47:36PM +0200, Wichert Akkerman wrote: Previously Martin Quinson wrote: Could you please explain what you're thinking about ? I am interessed in allowing end user having translation. I don't really care about the way it is done[*]. But with such a cryptic mail, it's hard to figure what can be done for my perticular problem in your much larger framework... I'm not thinking of anything in particular at the moment, mostly just following the discussion and noting possible issues. At this moment translations are simply not on the top of the todo-list for dpkg, and we already know that we will need some infrastructure to support them properly that does not exist at the moment. Agreed. What do I have to do to be informed about dpkg development ? Follow CVS. I also did, but I just subscribed to dpkg-cvs to ease this task. [*]: ie, I think gettext does what we need, but if you explain what's wrong about that, I'm pretty flexible. You've already been told a few times that gettext only does a small (and simple) part of what is involved. Ok, I'll try to summarize the problem to face. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 1) Do the translation 2) Put the translation in the Debian archive 3) Publish the translation, ie make sure it comes to the user hard disk when the package gets available, even before it gets installed 4) Use the translation when environment variable is properly set, and when the user ask dpkg Cie about a package. My patch gives a solution to 4, given that you use the gettext solution for 3, and maybe for 1-3. The ddts give a solution for 1. [In the rest, when I say 'You', I don't mean 'You, Wichert', but 'You, dpkg devellopers', or something even larger] I think your opinion about 1 is that it's a translator issue, and I agree. But the Prefect Solution(TM) have to take their point of view in account, haven't it ? You want to handle 2 by putting the translation in the package. That's ok, but with which form ? There is at least two solutions: in a po file located somewhere in debian/ dir, or directly in the control file. You prefere the second solution, am I right ? 3 is pretty hard to handle when you put the translation in a po file, and simpler when it's in the control file (but this approach leads to others problems, mainly from the translator point of view). As far as I understand, you want to take the descriptions aways from the /var/lib/dpkg/status file, and make several files, one per language. this would make the status DB lighter, and ease the handle of several languages. Sorry to annoy you all about translating package descriptions, but that's an important point for me. I'm willing to help, and the only answers I get are you're deadly wrong. So I'm trying to understand how to do it right... Thanks, Mt.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Previously Martin Quinson wrote: 1) Do the translation Right. 2) Put the translation in the Debian archive Wrong. `Make the translation available' would be better. Not all packages are in the Debian archive, and they have to be just as useful without being forced to be in there. 3) Publish the translation, ie make sure it comes to the user hard disk when the package gets available, even before it gets installed Not sure about that. `Make it possible to access a translation for a specific version of a specific package' would be better. 4) Use the translation when environment variable is properly set, and when the user ask dpkg Cie about a package. Right. My patch gives a solution to 4, given that you use the gettext solution for 3, and maybe for 1-3. The ddts give a solution for 1. Right, but 2 and 3 are the interesting ones and 4 is just a technical implementation to access the data. You want to handle 2 by putting the translation in the package. No, I want it to be possible to have it in the package, but it might be elsewhere as well. Putting all translations in all packages doesn't scale, but having multiple translations in a package can be useful (think packages not in a full archive, for example a vendor shipping debs on a CD). That's ok, but with which form ? There is at least two solutions: in a po file located somewhere in debian/ dir, or directly in the control file. You prefere the second solution, am I right ? For translations inside the package, yes, definitely. As far as I understand, you want to take the descriptions aways from the /var/lib/dpkg/status file, and make several files, one per language. this would make the status DB lighter, and ease the handle of several languages. I want the status file as it is to change, it contains much more information then dpkg needs to do most of its work. Non-essential data such as descriptions, maintainer info, etc. can be moved to a seperate new file that tools like dpkg-query and frontends can access (dpkg still needs to update it of course). Wichert. -- _ / Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 02:44:01PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:49:09PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:11:56PM +0100, Nick Phillips wrote: I'd have thought that the current situation re. maintainers putting translations into .debs makes it blindingly obvious that requiring them to do so in order for a translation to become available is a bad idea. Do package descriptions change so regularly that translated descriptions couldn't be submitted through the bug tracking system and included in the next upload? Most of my packages have never had their description changed from when I first wrote it. It would be better if we could just include translated descriptions in the debian/control file. See also the other mail: 50 changes in 10 days in main/sid But if you include the translation only in the debian/control you have - delays (maybe we have a override file and can solve this) - you will have outdated translations (like debconf now) - you must patch dpkg etc. in a wide way We can include the translation in the package. This is not the problem, but please not in the control file. The translation is no new information of the package, it is only a translation. Only a other form of the orignal text. Please read the last proposal, I explain a possibly solution in it. I wonder if the translators are over reacting here, yes people seem worried aboout the number of bug reports or whatever translations are generating. However this is because at the moment the translation effort is generating a lot of output. A lot of output is generated in some manner whenever there is a large addition to the distribution. Such as a new port. For example when ia64 porters did a whole lot of automatic bug submissions en masse a few months ago, some people got annoyed at the behavior, however that was an example of a new addition to debian generating a huge number of changes or needs for bug fixing. Thus it is obvious that when adding a lot of brand new shiny translations to packages a lot of bug reports would be generated (or translations notifications or whatever.) However once the translation effort settles down (which I assume will happen at some point, ie when the majority of packages have translated descriptions) the only times you get a whole lot of messages about translation is for each new package added to debian, or if description changes. The second is rare as has been pointed out, and new packages, well everything else about a packagve goes into the bts. Just because it seems at the moment that too many translation notifications are being generated for them to be placed into the bts I wonder if it is overkill/added complexity to try to use something else, as I would assume the number of translation notifications happening will not be so high permanently. As someone has pointed out the translation effort for the strings inside packages outputs to the bts, why not this, afterall once this settles down i would assume description translations would generate a much smaller stream of translations for packages already in debian. See You Steve -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wibble.net/~sjh Look Up In The Sky Is it a bird? No Is it a planeNo Is it a small blue banana? Yes
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 03:36:32AM +0200, Wichert Akkerman wrote: Previously Michael Bramer wrote: I am right and the translated description don't need be store in the status file? Yes and no. That is just a side-effect of a possible larger change. Could you please explain what you're thinking about ? I am interessed in allowing end user having translation. I don't really care about the way it is done[*]. But with such a cryptic mail, it's hard to figure what can be done for my perticular problem in your much larger framework... I am willing to (try to) help, but it's hard without a decent information. I'm subscribed on -dpkg since months, and I did not see any related mail either. What do I have to do to be informed about dpkg development ? Bye, Mt. [*]: ie, I think gettext does what we need, but if you explain what's wrong about that, I'm pretty flexible.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:20:42PM +0100, Nick Phillips wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:00:42PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: It needs to be stored, in /var/lib/dpkg/status, as a single file. This is so that dpkg can make safe updates to it. Trying to sync multiple files is not a simple solution. no, it does not store there. And I can explain it: Well, shouldn't it? Wouldn't it make sense to have the translated description in there rather than the original one? What if several admins does not speak the same languages ? Mt
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Previously Martin Quinson wrote: Could you please explain what you're thinking about ? I am interessed in allowing end user having translation. I don't really care about the way it is done[*]. But with such a cryptic mail, it's hard to figure what can be done for my perticular problem in your much larger framework... I'm not thinking of anything in particular at the moment, mostly just following the discussion and noting possible issues. At this moment translations are simply not on the top of the todo-list for dpkg, and we already know that we will need some infrastructure to support them properly that does not exist at the moment. What do I have to do to be informed about dpkg development ? Follow CVS. [*]: ie, I think gettext does what we need, but if you explain what's wrong about that, I'm pretty flexible. You've already been told a few times that gettext only does a small (and simple) part of what is involved. Wichert. -- _ / Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On 01-09-06 Nick Phillips wrote: On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 07:47:26PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote: upstream packages because they are not part of a package? The translation of the error messages and other messages of a program belong to the package of it. That depends on whether you're distributing one package or thousands. Why do make this dependant on the number of packages? I think that using some count like you do, is a bad thing. Because if you're only distributing one package or small group of packages (say, KDE), then your focus is making the translations available for all the So you want to compare packages from an upstream with packages created by either someone or a team for a distribution? people who use that package, whether or not the particular distribution they got it from has infrastructure to support translations. Hence it makes sense to put the translations in the package in that case. If on the other hand you are one of those distributions, distributing all sorts of packages, some of which have upstream translations, some of which don't, some of whose maintainers are able and willing to spend time on translations, some of whose maintainers aren't, then it doesn't make sense to set yourselves up in such a way (translations always living in packages) that translations will only be available when the maintainer does work on them. Which creates the situation, that packages in debian will on the one hand be different then the one you can get from the upstream and on the other hand it's a violation of our social-contract: | software will be widely distributed and used. We will feed back | bug-fixes, improvements, user requests, etc. to the upstream authors | of software included in our system. So if we correct wrong translation or create a new translation, then we shall send it to the upstream and inform them. With your suggestion above, this will only happen, if either the translator is doing this task also or if the maintainer is taking care of the translation. In all other cases, where the maintainer is not taking care of the translation, we'll have a nice violation of that statement. And since the maintainer is the contact to the upstream and responsible for the debian package, he shall be involved in the translation. Splitting translation out of upstream packages is in my opinion a bad thing and should never be done. But if we want to be, and are, able to easily add extra translations, or override poor-quality upstream translations (all without causing hassles for maintainers), then why not? Because for example I would prefer to be informed if any of my packages has a bad upstream translation and some has better one for me. Then I can forward and discuss it with the upstream and he can include it maybe in the official upstream sources. That way we wouldn't only improve the translation for people using debian, but also for people who are using some other free operating system and the upstream package. Fine, no-one is saying that you shouldn't be able to arrange to be notified when a particular package has a translation made available. And how do you propose to integration this notifications? According to your statement, everyone can update the translation without having to hassle with me and that's the point which makes me sad. Christian -- Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org) 1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16 63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853 pgpDbHwSPjryI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:35:06AM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote: So you want to compare packages from an upstream with packages created by either someone or a team for a distribution? No, I'm saying that if you're dealing with a package that will be distributed by means over which you have no control, then you are forced to include the translation in the package. If you have control over the distribution methods, then you can integrate the translation system into the distribution system however is most convenient, which almost certainly doesn't mean forcing it into the package in every case. If on the other hand you are one of those distributions, distributing all sorts of packages, some of which have upstream translations, some of which don't, some of whose maintainers are able and willing to spend time on translations, some of whose maintainers aren't, then it doesn't make sense to set yourselves up in such a way (translations always living in packages) that translations will only be available when the maintainer does work on them. Which creates the situation, that packages in debian will on the one hand be different then the one you can get from the upstream and on the other hand it's a violation of our social-contract: No, it doesn't. So if we correct wrong translation or create a new translation, then we shall send it to the upstream and inform them. With your suggestion above, this will only happen, if either the translator is doing this task also or if the maintainer is taking care of the translation. In all other cases, where the maintainer is not taking care of the translation, we'll have a nice violation of that statement. And since the maintainer is the contact to the upstream and responsible for the debian package, he shall be involved in the translation. Great. So rather than have a system that enables us to get a working translation, the option for the maintainer to be notified/involved, and otherwise the ability for the translators to send translations upstream, you'd rather keep banging your head against the brick wall that is maintainers just not able/willing/with enough time to deal with, check, integrate translations, and keep *us*, never mind upstream, from getting good translations. Feel free to keep banging your head against any walls you like, but don't complain when you find you're not getting through. Splitting translation out of upstream packages is in my opinion a bad thing and should never be done. I was careful to avoid suggesting that such a thing should be done. Although providing a better/alternative translation as an override should be simple. And if a maintainer decides that the upstream translations are worse than useless, then yes, they should be free to remove them, and the translation project should be able to provide alternatives without necessarily causing extra work for the maintainer. Fine, no-one is saying that you shouldn't be able to arrange to be notified when a particular package has a translation made available. And how do you propose to integration this notifications? According to your statement, everyone can update the translation without having to hassle with me and that's the point which makes me sad. If a translation is added to the official Debian archive, then it would be simple to arrange to notify any maintainer who wanted to know. If some third party at some random site provides a translation archive, then it's up to them whether they tell you or not. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't provide a mechanism for them to do so. It's free software after all. That means that if someone wants to do a translation, or if they want to run the code through an obfuscator, they don't *have* to tell you. Cheers, Nick -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:23:12PM +1000, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:46:12PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: With this the maintainers get some mails from the translator project. More like now. Now we only at the start, now we don't make a real review process. Now we have only 10 languages. I thought there was mention of translations mailing lists where all the translations are sent to in addition to the maintainer. I thought that was the review process. yes and no. Now all french translations are send to the debian-i10n-french ML ist. Because of this we have more fr updates like de or pt_BR. But after some time the ddts server will make a own review process. It will send all finish translated description a second time to the translators for a review. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Ja, aber der Bootvorgang ist doch so sch?n mit den Wolken und so. Das st?rt meiner Meinung nach garnicht. (Martin Heinz zum Rebooten von M$-W) pgpCOb2Lao7PM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:56:38PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Wichert Akkerman wrote: Previously Nick Phillips wrote: Well, shouldn't it? Wouldn't it make sense to have the translated description in there rather than the original one? I actually makes more sense to remove even the english description from status to another location. Note, that there is no reason dpkg could not be modified to read from multiple status files. what? sorry, but in a other mail you say: It needs to be stored, in /var/lib/dpkg/status, as a single file. This is so that dpkg can make safe updates to it. Trying to sync multiple files is not a simple solution. I am right and the translated description don't need be store in the status file? Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Wie haben andere Linux Benutzer ihr `erstes Mal' mit Linux erlebt?? Wir haben danach gemeinsam eine Gitanes geraucht und nochmal ueber alles geredet. -- P.Vollmann und Stefanie Teufel in dcolm pgplyEQLoJbS1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:42:12PM -0500, David Starner wrote: On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:08:52AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Branden Robinson wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:46:12PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: The maintainer need not do anything. Maybe he don't know the translation. The user only use this. This need only the translators. While we're on the subject, can you get someone to translate your mails into a comprehensible dialect of English? Branden, please don't be rude. True, Branden was rude. But the fact that grisu's emails are sometimes hard to understand has been a stumbling block for me; it would certainly help to get a translator/editor for the full blown proposals. sorry, about this problem. Maybe someone can help and translate the proposal. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux --== Free Software: Contribute nothing, expect nothing ==-- pgpiIjO3UkQvb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 02:44:01PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: See also the other mail: 50 changes in 10 days in main/sid In a single package? Huh? But if you include the translation only in the debian/control you have - delays (maybe we have a override file and can solve this) - you will have outdated translations (like debconf now) Yes, such is life. I don't see these as being sufficient reason to invent a completely new system for dealing with this data. - you must patch dpkg etc. in a wide way This is not a good excuse. dpkg is a Debian-specific tool, and so it should be modified if there is good reason to do so. Don't work around it. We can include the translation in the package. This is not the problem, but please not in the control file. The translation is no new information of the package, it is only a translation. Only a other form of the orignal text. I don't see why the distinction is necessary. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 08:43:10PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 02:44:01PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: See also the other mail: 50 changes in 10 days in main/sid In a single package? Huh? no. The description of 50 deb-packages from the debian distribution main/sid/binary-i386 (with 6000 Packages) had changed in the last 10 days. But if you include the translation only in the debian/control you have - delays (maybe we have a override file and can solve this) - you will have outdated translations (like debconf now) Yes, such is life. I don't see these as being sufficient reason to invent a completely new system for dealing with this data. No outdated translations is a very big problem. The system should better show untranslated descriptions than outdated translation. Also the delay is a big problem. And if the the maintainer fast and upload after a change in the translation, we kill all the autobuilder. A translation is no 'data' like Dependes, Description, Package. A translation is only a translation, a other form of the data in a other languages and a other encoding. And we don't need a completely new system for translations! We have a old, very well tested system and we propose to use this system: gettext. Gettext make all the work and we don't need a new system in dpkg and apt. - you must patch dpkg etc. in a wide way This is not a good excuse. dpkg is a Debian-specific tool, and so it should be modified if there is good reason to do so. Don't work around it. I agree with this. If we need new features in dpkg, we should patch it. And yes, we have propose a patch for dpkg. But you should not break the dpkg with a big patch only for translation. Make it smart. Use this -9/+30 patch and you have it. We can include the translation in the package. This is not the problem, but please not in the control file. The translation is no new information of the package, it is only a translation. Only a other form of the orignal text. I don't see why the distinction is necessary. sorry, it is usefull. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Weiß vielleicht jemand warum ich meine Freundin ständig anrufen soll, seitdem sie ihr neues Handy mit Vibrationsalarm hat? (Volker Flohr in daa'ooo) pgpT2CQTG5mk0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On 01-09-05 Nick Phillips wrote: The translation of any part of a package, be it the text of error messages, So, shall we now remove all .po files and other translation from upstream packages because they are not part of a package? The translation of the error messages and other messages of a program belong to the package of it. Christian -- Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org) 1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16 63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853 pgpNVcw3nJbiu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:08:25PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote: On 01-09-05 Nick Phillips wrote: The translation of any part of a package, be it the text of error messages, So, shall we now remove all .po files and other translation from upstream packages because they are not part of a package? The translation of the error messages and other messages of a program belong to the package of it. That depends on whether you're distributing one package or thousands. If upstream includes translations, then we don't have to worry about the maintainer managing inclusion of whichever languages people happen to write translations for. But if we want to be, and are, able to easily add extra translations, or override poor-quality upstream translations (all without causing hassles for maintainers), then why not? Cheers, Nick -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Everything will be just tickety-boo today.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:18:04AM -0400, Vociferous Mole wrote: I disagree with this. Translation of text that is part of the upstream source needs[1] to go to/through the maintainer, as it should be integrated upstream. Steve [1] Okay, it *could* be sent directly upstream, but often the debian maintainer has an established relationship to the upstream author, and may be able to fit them into the package more cleanly. And if the maintainer is in the no time for translations camp, then nothing happens. There's no reason why we can't cater for all types of maintainer. -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] You will feel hungry again in another hour.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On 01-09-06 Nick Phillips wrote: On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:08:25PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote: On 01-09-05 Nick Phillips wrote: The translation of any part of a package, be it the text of error messages, So, shall we now remove all .po files and other translation from upstream packages because they are not part of a package? The translation of the error messages and other messages of a program belong to the package of it. That depends on whether you're distributing one package or thousands. Why do make this dependant on the number of packages? I think that using some count like you do, is a bad thing. If upstream includes translations, then we don't have to worry about the maintainer managing inclusion of whichever languages people happen to write translations for. But if we want to be, and are, able to easily add extra translations, or override poor-quality upstream translations (all without causing hassles for maintainers), then why not? Because for example I would prefer to be informed if any of my packages has a bad upstream translation and some has better one for me. Then I can forward and discuss it with the upstream and he can include it maybe in the official upstream sources. That way we wouldn't only improve the translation for people using debian, but also for people who are using some other free operating system and the upstream package. Christian -- Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org) 1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16 63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853 pgpobuT4Njd53.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 07:47:26PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote: upstream packages because they are not part of a package? The translation of the error messages and other messages of a program belong to the package of it. That depends on whether you're distributing one package or thousands. Why do make this dependant on the number of packages? I think that using some count like you do, is a bad thing. Because if you're only distributing one package or small group of packages (say, KDE), then your focus is making the translations available for all the people who use that package, whether or not the particular distribution they got it from has infrastructure to support translations. Hence it makes sense to put the translations in the package in that case. If on the other hand you are one of those distributions, distributing all sorts of packages, some of which have upstream translations, some of which don't, some of whose maintainers are able and willing to spend time on translations, some of whose maintainers aren't, then it doesn't make sense to set yourselves up in such a way (translations always living in packages) that translations will only be available when the maintainer does work on them. Think about it. But if we want to be, and are, able to easily add extra translations, or override poor-quality upstream translations (all without causing hassles for maintainers), then why not? Because for example I would prefer to be informed if any of my packages has a bad upstream translation and some has better one for me. Then I can forward and discuss it with the upstream and he can include it maybe in the official upstream sources. That way we wouldn't only improve the translation for people using debian, but also for people who are using some other free operating system and the upstream package. Fine, no-one is saying that you shouldn't be able to arrange to be notified when a particular package has a translation made available. There is a difference between not requiring a maintainer to be involved in the provision of translations and not enabling a maintainer to be involved in the provision of translations. -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fine day to work off excess energy. Steal something heavy.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Previously Michael Bramer wrote: I am right and the translated description don't need be store in the status file? Yes and no. That is just a side-effect of a possible larger change. Wichert. -- _ / Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:35:48PM +0200, Richard Atterer wrote: Now the server can only mail notifications to all packages or to no packages. Should I stop it? Comments? The way I see your current proposals, such notifications will /eventually/ be necessary because maintainers will need to update their source packages with translations. some, or better a lot of maintainer ask for this notifications. Some maintainer would like to see all translations. Only with this he can make improvments, check the translation etc. Until then, it's not really necessary. IMHO, we should first reach a conclusion as to *how* a package maintainer should add the translation to the package. yes, it is not really necessary, like bug mails from the bts to the maintainer. And yes, we should find a conclusion *how* we add the translation to the package and to the distribution. This is a problem and we should find a solution. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux The UNIX Guru's View of Sex: gawk; talk; nice; date; wine; grep;\ touch; unzip; strip; touch; gasp; finger; gasp; mount; fsck; more;\ yes; gasp; umount; make clean; make mrproper; sleep pgpA6IE56PLrJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Previously Michael Bramer wrote: Maybe I have on next WE more time and I can improve the server and make this notification mail configable per package and someone can remove his packages from the notification process. No, make it opt-in and don't sent them by defaulot. Wichert. -- _ / Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Previously Martin Michlmayr wrote: Since this should probably be by-package and not by-maintainer, how about a field in debian/control? It has nothing to do with package metadata and does not belong there. Wichert. -- _ / Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Martin Michlmayr wrote: Since this should probably be by-package and not by-maintainer, how about a field in debian/control? (I'm not sure it really belongs there, but there were some advantages if it were there; e.g. it can easily be controlled by the maintainer.) If this will be implemented at any time it would make sense, if there would be a possibility to adjust the languages. For instance I would like to see: Receive-Translated-Descriptions: de ru (German and Russian) Others might wish Receive-Translated-Descriptions: all -de (all without German - perhaps because they do the German translation themselves and don´t need notification) or something like that. Kind regards Andreas.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:03:42AM +0200, Wichert Akkerman wrote: Previously Michael Bramer wrote: Maybe I have on next WE more time and I can improve the server and make this notification mail configable per package and someone can remove his packages from the notification process. No, make it opt-in and don't sent them by defaulot. Just checking, but having it optional is mutually exclusive with any final solution that involves the maintainer having to put the translation into the .deb. If they don't get sent, how will the maintainer know when there are new translations? -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ Magnetism, electricity and motion are like a three-for-two special offer: if you have two of them, the third one comes free.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On 01-09-04 Nick Phillips wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:06:04PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: I don't expect most maintainers to be able or inclined to keep track of a shedload of different translations, and those who are that keen should May I ask if you are aware about the ongoing translation of the debconf templates via the bts? If yes, would you mind explaining what's the difference between keeping track of thsoe translation/bugreports and keeping track of the package translation via a simple ddts mail? Christian -- Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org) 1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16 63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853 pgpK9nBMBbLu1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On 01-09-04 Wouter Verhelst wrote: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote: Maybe I have on next WE more time and I can improve the server and make this notification mail configable per package and someone can remove his packages from the notification process. You didn't already? Jeez... In the US, this is illegal... and isn't gluck located in the states? Would you telling me which part of this emails make them exactly illegal? They maybe annoying for some people, but they are not illegal in my opion. [1] Christian [1] No, I'm not a lawyer. P.S.: If you already call this e-Mails illegal, did you started lawsuits against all other us-based senders of mails to you, which you consider illegal? -- Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org) 1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16 63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853 pgp2W4MEEMiiZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 05:40:25PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote:
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote:
A proper solution, at the very least, invovles storing the data in the
foo.deb{control.tar.gz/control} file.
gettext is not a hack. Gettext for translations and dpkg use gettext
is self for translation. Why re-inventing the wheel?
gettext can not really be used for this data.
It needs to be stored, in /var/lib/dpkg/status, as a single file. This is so
that dpkg can make safe updates to it. Trying to sync multiple files is not a
simple solution.
no, it does not store there. And I can explain it:
The translation is no new information, it is not new package
metadata. It is only a translation, a other form of the exact same
information.
You can update /var/lib/dpkg/status, you can change the format, you
can do all things with it. You and you don't break the system. The
system use only gettext and get a translation.
I quote Wichert:
'It has nothing to do with package metadata and does not belong there.'
He don't mean translation, but he has right. No package metadata
should not in include in the controll file and not in
/var/lib/dpkg/status.
I propose to store the translations in a some po.files and store this
in foo.deb{control.tar.gz}. But not in the control file.
They must be stored inline inside status/available. This is the only sane way
to implement atomic file updates.
you don't need atomic file updates with the translations.
See a other example: the menu system.
This information is not in the control file, but you can make updates
without problems.
The translation is only a other form of the same information. You
don't need this information while the update process. You need the
translation only
- after the installation/update process (like dpkg --list)
- and before the installation/update with dselect, apt-cache show,
seach.
There is no need of a atomic file updates.
If you store the translation as normal field in the control file (like
Description-de: dff) you have outdated translations with the time.
And outdated translations is a very big problem.
zcat Packages_de.gz Packages_jp.gz | dpkg --merge-lang
and?
If in the dpkg database are changed description and in the Packages_de
file is one/some translation from the old description, you don't find
this this way. You will get outdated translation in the dpkg database.
Only one number: in the last 10 days we have 50 changed description
in sid/main
If a description is already translated, we need 1-20 days to
change the translation also. You will have outdate translation all the
time in sid and testing. And we must handle this problem.
Or didn't I understand your 'dpkg --merge-lang'?
this make the patch and the patch work. I don't stress the patch and
maybe it has one or two bugs. But it work with Descriptions on my
system.
Please stop just applying this to Description fields. Make it generic. dpkg
supports user-defined fields, so this proposal/implementation should as well.
If we talk about translation, this is not a big problem. You must only
use gettext all the time. Maybe we can throw away the 'maintainer
name' problem with this. (You know it: maintainer fields with
ÖÄÜöüüßåñïééõú... in the name.)
We need only one .po file, like this
msgid Werner Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
megstr Werner Mülller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
And the german User see the 'right' Name of this maintainer all the
time.
Gettext is generic with translations. You must only use it in the
output process of dpkg, dselect and apt.
Gruss
Grisu
--
Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org
PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux
Und mit doppelseitig bestrichenen Sandwiches baut man das
Perpetuum Mobile nach Murphy. -- Kristian Koehntopp in dasr
pgpRnHrQG2aDE.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:00:18PM +1000, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: No, make it opt-in and don't sent them by defaulot. Just checking, but having it optional is mutually exclusive with any final solution that involves the maintainer having to put the translation into the .deb. I'd have thought that the current situation re. maintainers putting translations into .debs makes it blindingly obvious that requiring them to do so in order for a translation to become available is a bad idea. If they don't get sent, how will the maintainer know when there are new translations? They shouldn't need to know. -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Excellent day for putting Slinkies on an escalator.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:41:53AM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote: On 01-09-04 Nick Phillips wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:06:04PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: I don't expect most maintainers to be able or inclined to keep track of a shedload of different translations, and those who are that keen should May I ask if you are aware about the ongoing translation of the debconf templates via the bts? If yes, would you mind explaining what's the difference between keeping track of thsoe translation/bugreports and keeping track of the package translation via a simple ddts mail? Yes. Ideally, the maintainer should not have to be involved in those translations either... If you look at it logically, *everything* that has to do with translations is quite distinct from the other tasks relating to package maintenance. The translation of any part of a package, be it the text of error messages, the text in control, or the text in debconf templates, does not need to be part of the package, and hence certainly shouldn't have to be. The translations can easily be completely abstracted from the package itself, and that relieves the maintainer from having to have anything to do with them. It would also be very simple to have another subdirectory in the debian area of the source into which any translations over which the maintainer did wish to keep control could be placed (this would also be useful for sending packages independently of any archive/CD set). The fact that some maintainers want control of some of the translations in their package should not force translators to rely on maintainers, and should not force upon all maintainers the task of managing translations. Translations do not belong in the package. It should be possible to include translations in a package, but I don't see that this is a sensible way to do it by default, all the time. Cheers, Nick [hoping I've not missed something that means I'm making a prize tit of myself] -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] You will soon forget this.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:00:42PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: It needs to be stored, in /var/lib/dpkg/status, as a single file. This is so that dpkg can make safe updates to it. Trying to sync multiple files is not a simple solution. no, it does not store there. And I can explain it: Well, shouldn't it? Wouldn't it make sense to have the translated description in there rather than the original one? -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Slow day. Practice crawling.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:00:42PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: If we talk about translation, this is not a big problem. You must only use gettext all the time. Maybe we can throw away the 'maintainer name' problem with this. (You know it: maintainer fields with ÖÄÜöüüßåñïééõú... in the name.) We need only one .po file, like this msgid Werner Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] megstr Werner Mülller [EMAIL PROTECTED] And the german User see the 'right' Name of this maintainer all the time. except that I would suggest to do it the other way round, having the proper full name as original, and individual languages will transform the name according to their established charset. (So that all latin 1 and latin 2 languages does not need to translate the proper form Werner Müller, but latin 2 languages will ASCIIfy Javier Fernandez-Sanguino Peña into Pena, and koi8-r languages (russian) will use ASCII only form of both) -- --- | Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ | | __..--^^^--..__garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk | --- Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus. Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:11:56PM +0100, Nick Phillips wrote: I'd have thought that the current situation re. maintainers putting translations into .debs makes it blindingly obvious that requiring them to do so in order for a translation to become available is a bad idea. Do package descriptions change so regularly that translated descriptions couldn't be submitted through the bug tracking system and included in the next upload? Most of my packages have never had their description changed from when I first wrote it. It would be better if we could just include translated descriptions in the debian/control file. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Le Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:20:42PM +0100, Nick Phillips écrivait: It needs to be stored, in /var/lib/dpkg/status, as a single file. This is so [...] no, it does not store there. And I can explain it: Well, shouldn't it? Wouldn't it make sense to have the translated description in there rather than the original one? Status is for installed packages, what about packages that are not yet installed ? Adam has an opinion, but while I agree that we may allow people to put translated field in the control file, it's not the way that Debian should use ... for all the reasons repeated over and over. Grisu's initial solution is the best on the different points. Check my summary somewhere else on this list. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/ Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com Naviguer sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:20:42PM +0100, Nick Phillips wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:00:42PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: It needs to be stored, in /var/lib/dpkg/status, as a single file. This is so that dpkg can make safe updates to it. Trying to sync multiple files is not a simple solution. no, it does not store there. And I can explain it: Well, shouldn't it? Wouldn't it make sense to have the translated description in there rather than the original one? (I hope I understand it right...) No, don't touch the files in /var/lib/dpkg/*. Don't insert the translation, don't replace the orignal with the translation. We should support not only one language, see should support more languages at the same time with dpkg and with a nice fallback path. And if we don't change the files in /var/lib/dpkg/, we don't need a big patch in dpkg. dpkg is a core element in debian and it must be stable. If we change a lot, we break (maybe) a lot. This is not nice. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Ein Prompt! Um Himmelswillen! Ein Prompt!! HILF pgpp7bt9qrP3Y.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:13:35PM +0200, Radovan Garabik wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:00:42PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: If we talk about translation, this is not a big problem. You must only use gettext all the time. Maybe we can throw away the 'maintainer name' problem with this. (You know it: maintainer fields with ÖÄÜöüüßåñïééõú... in the name.) We need only one .po file, like this msgid Werner Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] megstr Werner Mülller [EMAIL PROTECTED] And the german User see the 'right' Name of this maintainer all the time. except that I would suggest to do it the other way round, having the proper full name as original, and individual languages will transform the name according to their established charset. (So that all latin 1 and latin 2 languages does not need to translate the proper form Werner Müller, but latin 2 languages will ASCIIfy Javier Fernandez-Sanguino Peña into Pena, and koi8-r languages (russian) will use ASCII only form of both) this is ok. This was not a proposal. it was only a first thought and should show, that gettext can make more (and not only Descriptions...) Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux We just typed make... -- (Stephen Lambrigh, Director of Server Product Marketing at Informix about porting their Database to Linux) pgpDlbQuuhk0H.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:49:09PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:11:56PM +0100, Nick Phillips wrote: I'd have thought that the current situation re. maintainers putting translations into .debs makes it blindingly obvious that requiring them to do so in order for a translation to become available is a bad idea. Do package descriptions change so regularly that translated descriptions couldn't be submitted through the bug tracking system and included in the next upload? Most of my packages have never had their description changed from when I first wrote it. It would be better if we could just include translated descriptions in the debian/control file. See also the other mail: 50 changes in 10 days in main/sid But if you include the translation only in the debian/control you have - delays (maybe we have a override file and can solve this) - you will have outdated translations (like debconf now) - you must patch dpkg etc. in a wide way We can include the translation in the package. This is not the problem, but please not in the control file. The translation is no new information of the package, it is only a translation. Only a other form of the orignal text. Please read the last proposal, I explain a possibly solution in it. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux We just typed make... -- (Stephen Lambrigh, Director of Server Product Marketing at Informix about porting their Database to Linux) pgpnEyGGJwokg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:49:09PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote: Do package descriptions change so regularly that translated descriptions couldn't be submitted through the bug tracking system and included in the next upload? Apparently maintainers regularly fail to do anything with them at all for ages. Besides which there is no real *need* for the maintainers to be required to take action to make translations available. Most of my packages have never had their description changed from when I first wrote it. It would be better if we could just include translated descriptions in the debian/control file. The descriptions are just one of the parts of a package that needs to be translated. It would make more sense to consider the way to deal with *all* the text in the package that needs to be translated. Why put the translations in the control file? Why not just make available (either in the package, or elsewhere, depending on the means by which the package is to be distributed, and the maintainer's knowledge and inclination) the translations for the whole package in one place? Cheers, Nick, who is waiting for someone to tell him he's completely wrong. -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tonight's the night: Sleep in a eucalyptus tree.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
* Nick Phillips | The translation of any part of a package, be it the text of error messages, | the text in control, or the text in debconf templates, does not need to | be part of the package, and hence certainly shouldn't have to be. The | translations can easily be completely abstracted from the package itself, | and that relieves the maintainer from having to have anything to do with them. The description is part of the package, can we agree on that one? What is the difference between a translated description and the original one, except for which language it is written in? The package is the responsibility of the maintainer, and s/he has the final words on all aspects of how it should be packaged (subject to policy, of course). To me, it looks like you want this changed, which I think is a bad idea. -- Tollef Fog Heen You Can't Win
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On 05-Sep-01, 07:09 (EDT), Nick Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you look at it logically, *everything* that has to do with translations is quite distinct from the other tasks relating to package maintenance. The translation of any part of a package, be it the text of error messages, the text in control, or the text in debconf templates, does not need to be part of the package, and hence certainly shouldn't have to be. The translations can easily be completely abstracted from the package itself, and that relieves the maintainer from having to have anything to do with them. I disagree with this. Translation of text that is part of the upstream source needs[1] to go to/through the maintainer, as it should be integrated upstream. Steve [1] Okay, it *could* be sent directly upstream, but often the debian maintainer has an established relationship to the upstream author, and may be able to fit them into the package more cleanly.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:49:09PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote: Do package descriptions change so regularly that translated descriptions couldn't be submitted through the bug tracking system and included in the next upload? That doesn't serve the purpose of hijacking pieces of the maintainer's package away from him, which, as you'll note, is the foundational premise of Michael Bramer's entire proposal. He doesn't want the maintainer involved at all, except to sit by helplessly and get flooded with emails notifying him that his package has been modified yet again. -- G. Branden Robinson|I have a truly elegant proof of the Debian GNU/Linux |above, but it is too long to fit [EMAIL PROTECTED] |into this .signature file. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | pgpufZruavAvI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:22:47PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: * Nick Phillips | The translation of any part of a package, be it the text of error messages, | the text in control, or the text in debconf templates, does not need to | be part of the package, and hence certainly shouldn't have to be. The | translations can easily be completely abstracted from the package itself, | and that relieves the maintainer from having to have anything to do with them. The description is part of the package, can we agree on that one? What is the difference between a translated description and the original one, except for which language it is written in? Well, all descriptions are in english by default and there is no real reason to store every description for every package on every machine/archive. The package is the responsibility of the maintainer, and s/he has the final words on all aspects of how it should be packaged (subject to policy, of course). To me, it looks like you want this changed, which I think is a bad idea. But then the maintainer has to take full responsibility to maintain the translations. And several maintainers have said they don't even want to know about new translations since they can be added without any action on their part. I actually quite like the idea of allowing the farming of parts of a package to other people. And since most people can't read more than a language or two, it seems silly to require them to keep every translation up-to-date. It not like any functionality is being changed, just some text. -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ Magnetism, electricity and motion are like a three-for-two special offer: if you have two of them, the third one comes free.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:07:40AM +1000, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: The description is part of the package, can we agree on that one? What is the difference between a translated description and the original one, except for which language it is written in? The original, canonical, description is part of the package, and a necessary part at that. Others aren't. They're just different representations of the original one, and don't *need* to be provided by the maintainer. If the maintainer chooses to provide, obtain, manage translations, fine. If not, also fine. The translations are not a necessary part of the package, they are related to it, and could be provided however is most convenient for the situation at hand - not necessarily in one big lump. Well, all descriptions are in english by default and there is no real reason to store every description for every package on every machine/archive. Exactly. The package is the responsibility of the maintainer, and s/he has the final words on all aspects of how it should be packaged (subject to policy, of course). To me, it looks like you want this changed, which I think is a bad idea. But then the maintainer has to take full responsibility to maintain the translations. And several maintainers have said they don't even want to know about new translations since they can be added without any action on their part. Exactly again. If translations are available both from the maintainer and from a separate translation archive, it should be up to the user to decide which they want to use. That would allow for all sorts of flexibility - as I said before, you could even have different translations in the same language. I can think of at least one way in which this could be useful. Cheers, Nick -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Someone whom you reject today, will reject you tomorrow.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Previously Nick Phillips wrote: Well, shouldn't it? Wouldn't it make sense to have the translated description in there rather than the original one? I actually makes more sense to remove even the english description from status to another location. Wichert. -- _ / Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:13:00AM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:49:09PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote: Do package descriptions change so regularly that translated descriptions couldn't be submitted through the bug tracking system and included in the next upload? That doesn't serve the purpose of hijacking pieces of the maintainer's package away from him, which, as you'll note, is the foundational premise of Michael Bramer's entire proposal. He doesn't want the maintainer involved at all, except to sit by helplessly and get flooded with emails notifying him that his package has been modified yet again. sorry, branden. 1.) you speak only about the 1. proposal 2.) In the last proposal, I propose a way to include the translation in the package. This proposal has some improvments and is more exact. 3.) I don't flooded the maintainer. 4.) In this list and per PM I get some request about this mails. If I hadn't support this mails, some maintainers whould have wept. 5.) I ask yesterday if we should stop this mails, and only some make this request. 6.) I and some other translators get some 'Thanks' after the notifcation mail. This is not wrong in all ways. 7.) This notification mails are like the mails from the BTS or from katie 8.) This mails are not helplessly. I know some translators, who get improvments from the maintainer. 9.) If you right and this mails are useless, we should put the maintainer out of the loop. But you are wrong. Some maintainers are very active and help the translators. 10.) Make you the request to send this all to the BTS? If we make the translations, we have two excesses: - we put the maintainer really in the loop (without a override file) With this the maintainers get some mails from the translator project. More like now. Now we only at the start, now we don't make a real review process. Now we have only 10 languages. In this case the maintainer must make the whole work after the translation. Sorry, but if some maintainers complain about this mails (without real work on there site) now, they don't make a good work in the future. - we put the maintainer out of the loop The maintainer need not do anything. Maybe he don't know the translation. The user only use this. This need only the translators. I don't propose one of this excesses now. I post a proposal with both sites. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux «Computers are like air conditioners -- they stop working properly if i you open WINDOWS» pgppMJua4uT92.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:46:12PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: Sorry, but if some maintainers complain about this mails (without real work on there site) now, they don't make a good work in the future. To be honest, I find it more annoying getting form mails like the notifications than to get mails which require some action on my part. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever. pgpGVGOrQc5Gi.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Wichert Akkerman wrote: Previously Nick Phillips wrote: Well, shouldn't it? Wouldn't it make sense to have the translated description in there rather than the original one? I actually makes more sense to remove even the english description from status to another location. Note, that there is no reason dpkg could not be modified to read from multiple status files.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:46:12PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: The maintainer need not do anything. Maybe he don't know the translation. The user only use this. This need only the translators. While we're on the subject, can you get someone to translate your mails into a comprehensible dialect of English? -- G. Branden Robinson| One man's magic is another man's Debian GNU/Linux | engineering. Supernatural is a [EMAIL PROTECTED] | null word. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | -- Robert Heinlein pgpX0kyKT5HN9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Branden Robinson wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:46:12PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: The maintainer need not do anything. Maybe he don't know the translation. The user only use this. This need only the translators. While we're on the subject, can you get someone to translate your mails into a comprehensible dialect of English? Branden, please don't be rude. The very fact that grisu's English is not that good, explains why it's so damn important to support translations. -- wouter dot verhelst at advalvas in Belgium This is Linux world. On a quiet day, you can hear Windows reboot.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:46:12PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: With this the maintainers get some mails from the translator project. More like now. Now we only at the start, now we don't make a real review process. Now we have only 10 languages. I thought there was mention of translations mailing lists where all the translations are sent to in addition to the maintainer. I thought that was the review process. After all, I don't really know enough Dutch to do a lot of translating work, but I know easily enough to check other peoples translations. -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ Magnetism, electricity and motion are like a three-for-two special offer: if you have two of them, the third one comes free.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:08:52AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Branden Robinson wrote: On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:46:12PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: The maintainer need not do anything. Maybe he don't know the translation. The user only use this. This need only the translators. While we're on the subject, can you get someone to translate your mails into a comprehensible dialect of English? Branden, please don't be rude. True, Branden was rude. But the fact that grisu's emails are sometimes hard to understand has been a stumbling block for me; it would certainly help to get a translator/editor for the full blown proposals. -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pointless website: http://dvdeug.dhis.org I don't care if Bill personally has my name and reads my email and laughs at me. In fact, I'd be rather honored. - Joseph_Greg
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello This is only an automated notification mail from the ddts (Debian Description Translation Server). As an automated mail, to which I have not request, I consider this spam. Please remove me, and all ways of contacting me, from your automated lists. I do not take kindly to unwarranted spam mails.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On 09/04/2001 09:44:11 AM Adam Heath wrote: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello This is only an automated notification mail from the ddts (Debian Description Translation Server). As an automated mail, to which I have not request, I consider this spam. Please remove me, and all ways of contacting me, from your automated lists. I do not take kindly to unwarranted spam mails. Read the contents of the email. It's a bug on their side. It's not automated at all, or at least no more than any mailling list software is automated. It was generated by a person who knows a language that you don't. The translator presumably doesn't know English as well as us, thus they mistakenly call it automated, as if it's a computer generated translation like from babelfish... Someone whom speaks BR (Brazilian?) wrote translations for your Debian package, so rather that send you a message in BR language (which you probably can't read) you get the English form letter. Overall, better to get a form letter in a language you can read, than a personally written email in a language you can't read. I've gotten similar emails from ITs (Italians? Information Technologists?) ... They are nice guys, being nice to you and your Debian packages. Please be nice in return. Treat it like a NMU, smile and say thanks and carry on with life. It's a new system so it's understandable that everyone doesn't know about it.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Em Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:08:15 -0500 Vince Mulhollon [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: don't. The translator presumably doesn't know English as well as us, thus they mistakenly call it automated, as if it's a computer generated translation like from babelfish... the translator did nothing... it's a feature of the ddts... Someone whom speaks BR (Brazilian?) wrote translations for your Debian Brazillian Portuguese package, so rather that send you a message in BR language (which you probably can't read) you get the English form letter. Overall, better to get a form letter in a language you can read, than a personally written email in a language you can't read. well, that's what people wanted and asked for in this list... I've gotten similar emails from ITs (Italians? Information Technologists?) ... italians =) They are nice guys, being nice to you and your Debian packages. Please be nice in return. Treat it like a NMU, smile and say thanks and carry on with life. It's a new system so it's understandable that everyone doesn't know about it. hey, that's it! we're nice =), we want to make Debian universal and maintainers will probably help us ;), now that's not an NMU and it could be optional too... that's an issue we have to take care of... but I am sure no maintainer got angry with the automated message from katie ;) []s! -- Gustavo Noronha Silva - kov http://www.metainfo.org/kov ** | .''`. | Debian GNU/Linux: http://www.debian.org| | : :' : | Debian BR...: http://debian-br.sourceforge.net | | `. `'` | Be Happy! Be FREE! | | `-| Think globally, act locally! | **
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:44:11AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is only an automated notification mail from the ddts (Debian Description Translation Server). As an automated mail, to which I have not request, I consider this spam. Please remove me, and all ways of contacting me, from your automated lists. I do not take kindly to unwarranted spam mails. OH, this is now the second 'remove me' request. Now the server can only mail notifications to all packages or to no packages. Should I stop it? Comments? Maybe I have on next WE more time and I can improve the server and make this notification mail configable per package and someone can remove his packages from the notification process. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Windows ist der One-Night-Stand unter den Betriebssystemen. Man fühlt sich so billig, wenn man es benutzt hat. -- Illiad in uf pgpbe8pwqoJ5g.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Vince Mulhollon wrote: On 09/04/2001 09:44:11 AM Adam Heath wrote: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello This is only an automated notification mail from the ddts (Debian Description Translation Server). As an automated mail, to which I have not request, I consider this spam. Please remove me, and all ways of contacting me, from your automated lists. I do not take kindly to unwarranted spam mails. Read the contents of the email. It's a bug on their side. It's not automated at all, or at least no more than any mailling list software is automated. It was generated by a person who knows a language that you don't. The translator presumably doesn't know English as well as us, thus they mistakenly call it automated, as if it's a computer generated translation like from babelfish... No, it's an automated server.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote: OH, this is now the second 'remove me' request. Now the server can only mail notifications to all packages or to no packages. Should I stop it? You mailed -devel-announce on Aug 30. I then started getting these mails over the weekend. I would have hoped a week of time for discussion would have been appropriate.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: package, so rather that send you a message in BR language (which you probably can't read) you get the English form letter. Overall, better to get a form letter in a language you can read, than a personally written email in a language you can't read. well, that's what people wanted and asked for in this list... This is more a response to Vince, than Gustavo: How can you know what language is native for a maintainer, based on the package name? Sending an english form-letter to pkg@packages seems wrong, and against what this whole idea is about. I would rather see support added to dpkg first, for storing this info(make all tools in dpkg(this includes dpkg-dev(which stores the data into the .deb) do this), then work on displaying this info. I am very much against this hackish end-run around what are open-development tools. Adam, who is a dpkg developer.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On 09/04/2001 10:52:58 AM Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: Em Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:08:15 -0500 Vince Mulhollon [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: they mistakenly call it automated, as if it's a computer generated translation like from babelfish... the translator did nothing... it's a feature of the ddts... I think of it like the bug reports from the bug package. (I'm thinking bug uses email submission, or maybe I'm thinking of a similar package) True, in both cases a program sends the message. However, in both cases the email is generated by a person filling in the blank, either bug description or package description. There was a person involved in each individual email, thus to me, it's not automated. To me, automated would be writing a Perl script to run the entire Packages file thru a computer auto-translator like babelfish and then submitting without any human editing... That could be annoying. Someone whom speaks BR (Brazilian?) wrote translations for your Debian Brazillian Portuguese I've gotten similar emails from ITs (Italians? Information Technologists?) ... italians =) The emails should have a full language name instead of abbreviation. It's hard enough for developers to figure out if the translation is fair, without having to guess if ES means Eastonian or Espanol.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:51:07AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote: OH, this is now the second 'remove me' request. Now the server can only mail notifications to all packages or to no packages. Should I stop it? You mailed -devel-announce on Aug 30. I then started getting these mails over the weekend. I would have hoped a week of time for discussion would have been appropriate. Yes, a week would be better. But I have get some request of this notification mails per List and privat mails and I start this after this requests. I don't see a real problem with this mail. If someone don't like it he can make a procmail rule and move the mails to /dev/null and I can improve the server by time. sorry, for this problem. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux «Computers are like air conditioners -- they stop working properly if i you open WINDOWS» pgp5CxptbzC8q.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote: Maybe I have on next WE more time and I can improve the server and make this notification mail configable per package and someone can remove his packages from the notification process. You didn't already? Jeez... In the US, this is illegal... and isn't gluck located in the states? -- wouter dot verhelst at advalvas dot be Human knowledge belongs to the world -- from the movie Antitrust
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Vince Mulhollon wrote: Someone whom speaks BR (Brazilian?) wrote translations for your Debian Brazillian Portuguese I've gotten similar emails from ITs (Italians? Information Technologists?) ... italians =) The emails should have a full language name instead of abbreviation. It's hard enough for developers to figure out if the translation is fair, without having to guess if ES means Eastonian or Espanol. If a maintainer cares enough to keep track of these things, shouldn't they also be expected to know enough to find the language codes on their own? http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/IG/ert/iso639.htm Besides... what if the maintainer doesn't speak English very well, and recognizes languages better by ISO codes than by English names? :) Steve Langasek postmodern programmer
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Wouter Verhelst wrote: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote: Maybe I have on next WE more time and I can improve the server and make this notification mail configable per package and someone can remove his packages from the notification process. You didn't already? Jeez... In the US, this is illegal... and isn't gluck located in the states? There are laws prohibiting Unsolicited Commercial Email and Unsolicited Bulk Email in the United States. I don't think one DD notifying other DDs by email whenever translations have been updated for their packages qualifies as either 'Commercial' or 'Bulk'. :P Whereas it does fall under the 'Unsolicited' modifier, and if select DDs wish not to receive these messages, I can see where such a request should be honored. Steve Langasek postmodern programmer
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote: I don't see a real problem with this mail. If someone don't like it he can make a procmail rule and move the mails to /dev/null and I can improve the server by time. With spam, there is nothing I can really do to stop from even receiving it in my accounts. With this mail, I can get it stopped. Please, turn off this mail-spamming service, until you have a facility to exclude certain maintainers(note, I don't care about package excludes, but maintainer excludes).
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:53:59AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: package, so rather that send you a message in BR language (which you probably can't read) you get the English form letter. Overall, better to get a form letter in a language you can read, than a personally written email in a language you can't read. well, that's what people wanted and asked for in this list... This is more a response to Vince, than Gustavo: How can you know what language is native for a maintainer, based on the package name? Sending an english form-letter to pkg@packages seems wrong, and against what this whole idea is about. english is all the time the right way. All maintainers can read english mails, all doc and mailings list are in English. A English letter to @packages.d.o or bugs.d.o is right. I would rather see support added to dpkg first, for storing this info(make all tools in dpkg(this includes dpkg-dev(which stores the data into the .deb) do this), then work on displaying this info. I am very much against this hackish end-run around what are open-development tools. Adam, who is a dpkg developer. Ok, But why the dpkg so quiet? I ask the first time on [EMAIL PROTECTED] at 11.06.2001 (maybe I send a other mail before this time ...) and I get _no_ response. I make some proposal (and IMHO the last one ok), but I don't see a dpkg or APT developer with proposals, improvements, etc. I only see some comments like: `I don't like this hack', 'This don't work', 'Make sure people submit their translations in UTF8', ... And a second thing: The collection of translation (and only this make the ddtp now) is other thing, as the technical implementation in dpkg and apt. If we start with the collection foremost after the technical implementation, we lost only time. We can make this parallel. Now we habe some languages with 10% translated. If we now start the implementation process, we have with the implementation some already translated description. But Adam and other dpkg/APT developer: some wishes - If you have already some thoughts about the technical implementation of translated descriptions, give us some hints, URL, etc. - Please read the proposals and make comments, make own proposals etc. And don't say only: 'This will not work this way.' If you have better ideas, talk about this! The translated description is a important feature in the future! We have a lot users from no english speaking countries. We need this feature, and not in three years. Please make now thoughts and start with this in future. IMHO the last proposal is a good start. It need only little changes in dpkg and apt, include translations in the deb file, use a central override file and avoids big delays. Maybe you have some comments about this. Thanks for your work. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Nicht geschehene Taten ziehen oft einen erstaunlichen Mangel an Folgen nach sich. -- S.J. Lec pgpdMrDPEf4x4.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:53:59AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: How can you know what language is native for a maintainer, based on the package name? Sending an english form-letter to pkg@packages seems wrong, and against what this whole idea is about. Why? This is multilingual support for users, not developers. Developers get many English form-letters, not to mention English bug reports. I would rather see support added to dpkg first, for storing this info(make all tools in dpkg(this includes dpkg-dev(which stores the data into the .deb) do this), then work on displaying this info. I am very much against this hackish end-run around what are open-development tools. Then you should have been here for the lengthy discussion on the subject. grisu provided lengthy (if not always persuasive) explanations for why it's being done this way, and there were many discussions on the ramifactions. Anyway, grisu is offering working code. There is no working dpkg solution, nor consensus that a dpkg solution would be better. -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pointless website: http://dvdeug.dhis.org I don't care if Bill personally has my name and reads my email and laughs at me. In fact, I'd be rather honored. - Joseph_Greg
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:04:58PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: Please, turn off this mail-spamming service, until you have a facility to exclude certain maintainers(note, I don't care about package excludes, but maintainer excludes). Maybe we should call it EMP and not SPAM. I don't think he has a commercial target. :) -- Christian Surchi | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] FLUG: http://www.firenze.linux.it | Debian GNU/Linux: http://www.debian.org The more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:04:58PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: Please, turn off this mail-spamming service, until you have a facility to exclude certain maintainers(note, I don't care about package excludes, but maintainer excludes). comments? (for the future: The ddts don't know maintainers and son't send it to maintainers. It sends this mails to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Gruss Gri, man bekommt nie alle unter einen Hut, su -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Linux -- das System fuer Kaltduscher und aechte Maenner aus d.c.o.u.l.n pgpN87Tuf3Qc6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote:
Adam, who is a dpkg developer.
Ok, But why the dpkg so quiet?
No one sees a need? We all have to split our time different ways, and the
current developers/authors/programmers don't see it as useful.
If someone were to develope a patch, test it, show it in use, it would very
likely get a good response.
I only see some comments like: `I don't like this hack', 'This don't
work', 'Make sure people submit their translations in UTF8', ...
So come up with a proper solution, not a hack.
A proper solution, at the very least, invovles storing the data in the
foo.deb{control.tar.gz/control} file.
But Adam and other dpkg/APT developer: some wishes
- If you have already some thoughts about the technical
implementation of translated descriptions, give us some hints,
URL, etc.
Fetch the current locale, and when displaying a field(from a list of fields),
look for the fieldname with the locale appended. Note, this is not as easy as
it may sound, because the description as stored by dpkg internally in memory
does not make it immediately easy to generify.
There may be other fields that should be 'converted' to an alternate form,
when displaying, not just Description(I'm leaving this open for other items in
the future).
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote:
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:04:58PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote:
Please, turn off this mail-spamming service, until you have a facility to
exclude certain maintainers(note, I don't care about package excludes, but
maintainer excludes).
comments?
So load indicies/Maintainers, with an option to have a local override(see
/etc/debbugs/Maintainers{,override} on master).
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:06:04PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: comments? Only send them to individuals who've asked for them? I don't expect most maintainers to be able or inclined to keep track of a shedload of different translations, and those who are that keen should be able to muster the energy to make the small effort to subscribe to receive notifications regarding particular packages. Cheers, Nick -- Nick Phillips -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Look afar and see the end from the beginning.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 02:18:57PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote:
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote:
Adam, who is a dpkg developer.
Ok, But why the dpkg so quiet?
No one sees a need? We all have to split our time different ways, and the
current developers/authors/programmers don't see it as useful.
this is normal. But some comments (like your last mail) is better.
Thanks.
If someone were to develope a patch, test it, show it in use, it would very
likely get a good response.
Have you see the patch from martin (see the very proposal)?
I only see some comments like: `I don't like this hack', 'This don't
work', 'Make sure people submit their translations in UTF8', ...
So come up with a proper solution, not a hack.
A proper solution, at the very least, invovles storing the data in the
foo.deb{control.tar.gz/control} file.
gettext is not a hack. Gettext for translations and dpkg use gettext
is self for translation. Why re-inventing the wheel?
I propose to store the translations in a some po.files and store this
in foo.deb{control.tar.gz}. But not in the control file.
If you store the translation as normal field in the control file (like
Description-de: dff) you have outdated translations with the time.
And outdated translations is a very big problem.
You have more than one encoding in this file. This can be a problem.
Maybe you make a hack like debconf-mergetemplates and save the
translations in some files and merge this later in one control file. I
don't see a advantage with this.
But Adam and other dpkg/APT developer: some wishes
- If you have already some thoughts about the technical
implementation of translated descriptions, give us some hints,
URL, etc.
Fetch the current locale, and when displaying a field(from a list of fields),
look for the fieldname with the locale appended. Note, this is not as easy as
it may sound, because the description as stored by dpkg internally in memory
does not make it immediately easy to generify.
this make the patch and the patch work. I don't stress the patch and
maybe it has one or two bugs. But it work with Descriptions on my
system.
There may be other fields that should be 'converted' to an alternate form,
when displaying, not just Description(I'm leaving this open for other items in
the future).
Maybe we can 'converted' other fields. But I don't see the sense?!
The other fields (like Package, Depends, Version, MD5SUM, ...) are all
more technical. The User need not to 'understand' the values of this
fields. The Package name is the package name, the version is the
version, ... Normal in RL you don't translate Names, etc.
Gruss
Grisu
--
Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org
PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux
Jaja. Die Heisenbergsche Unschaerferelation soll nur die Rechenfehler
der Simulationshardware verdecken.
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lutz Donnerhacke) ueber simulierte Realitaet
pgpnfzBPUC9nK.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:39:29PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote:
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote:
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:04:58PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote:
Please, turn off this mail-spamming service, until you have a facility to
exclude certain maintainers(note, I don't care about package excludes, but
maintainer excludes).
comments?
So load indicies/Maintainers, with an option to have a local override(see
/etc/debbugs/Maintainers{,override} on master).
yes I can make this (or get the info from the Package file, I get now
all infos from the Package file). But not now.
Now I have no time for this. First I must (only ddtp-TODO list)
- write the bts code in the ddpt
- clean the code and write a better api
- help with the html interface
- make the code more modular (hocks for the french boys, more config,
add more encodings, ...)
- add the review process
And I have some other TODO's on other lists. (like my job, my
packages, test BF's, patch dpkg and apt, ...)
And one note:
Thanks to the 170 translators in the ddtp. They do all the work and
we, the debian project, should use their translations.
Please don't deny their contribution.
Gruss
Grisu
--
Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org
PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux
Wie haben andere Linux Benutzer ihr `erstes Mal' mit Linux erlebt??
Wir haben danach gemeinsam eine Gitanes geraucht und nochmal ueber alles
geredet. -- P.Vollmann und Stefanie Teufel in dcolm
pgpkb00SblVc3.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:50:07PM +0100, Nick Phillips wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:06:04PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: comments? Only send them to individuals who've asked for them? I don't expect most maintainers to be able or inclined to keep track of a shedload of different translations, and those who are that keen should be able to muster the energy to make the small effort to subscribe to receive notifications regarding particular packages. Yes, I can make this. But not now. Should I stop the notification mails now? Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux Linux -- das System fuer Kaltduscher und aechte Maenner aus d.c.o.u.l.n pgpWtixVsiCWg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
Em Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:18:57 -0500 (CDT) Adam Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote: Adam, who is a dpkg developer. Ok, But why the dpkg so quiet? No one sees a need? We all have to split our time different ways, and the current developers/authors/programmers don't see it as useful. If someone were to develope a patch, test it, show it in use, it would very likely get a good response. it was already done... if you don't see it as usefull you missed the Debian's main goal wich is being universal... []s! -- Gustavo Noronha Silva - kov http://www.metainfo.org/kov ** | .''`. | Debian GNU/Linux: http://www.debian.org| | : :' : | Debian BR...: http://debian-br.sourceforge.net | | `. `'` | Be Happy! Be FREE! | | `-| Think globally, act locally! | **
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote: Now I have no time for this. First I must (only ddtp-TODO list) - write the bts code in the ddpt - clean the code and write a better api - help with the html interface - make the code more modular (hocks for the french boys, more config, add more encodings, ...) - add the review process Is the code public? How does one join? Is it open? etc. And I have some other TODO's on other lists. (like my job, my packages, test BF's, patch dpkg and apt, ...) As do we all. And one note: Thanks to the 170 translators in the ddtp. They do all the work and we, the debian project, should use their translations. Please don't deny their contribution. I'm not denying their work. I just don't want to be constantly emailed that something has changed.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote:
A proper solution, at the very least, invovles storing the data in the
foo.deb{control.tar.gz/control} file.
gettext is not a hack. Gettext for translations and dpkg use gettext
is self for translation. Why re-inventing the wheel?
gettext can not really be used for this data.
It needs to be stored, in /var/lib/dpkg/status, as a single file. This is so
that dpkg can make safe updates to it. Trying to sync multiple files is not a
simple solution.
I propose to store the translations in a some po.files and store this
in foo.deb{control.tar.gz}. But not in the control file.
They must be stored inline inside status/available. This is the only sane way
to implement atomic file updates.
If you store the translation as normal field in the control file (like
Description-de: dff) you have outdated translations with the time.
And outdated translations is a very big problem.
zcat Packages_de.gz Packages_jp.gz | dpkg --merge-lang
this make the patch and the patch work. I don't stress the patch and
maybe it has one or two bugs. But it work with Descriptions on my
system.
Please stop just applying this to Description fields. Make it generic. dpkg
supports user-defined fields, so this proposal/implementation should as well.
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 05:26:00PM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Michael Bramer wrote: Now I have no time for this. First I must (only ddtp-TODO list) - write the bts code in the ddpt - clean the code and write a better api - help with the html interface - make the code more modular (hocks for the french boys, more config, add more encodings, ...) - add the review process Is the code public? How does one join? Is it open? etc. the code is public (see daily tar on the page). Now I don't use CVS (or like this) but you can send patches, it is open and it is free. If you need more infos ask or see on auric in my home. And one note: Thanks to the 170 translators in the ddtp. They do all the work and we, the debian project, should use their translations. Please don't deny their contribution. I'm not denying their work. I just don't want to be constantly emailed that something has changed. I don'e mean the notification mail, I mean the proposal in generally. And I don't mean you personal, I mean all apt/dpkg developer. This developer must make the next step. They must choose a proposal or write a own, make the techniq etc. I and the others can write more proposals, but we all need the support of dpkg and apt. Please give some of your time this project. Thanks. Gruss Grisu -- Michael Bramer - a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Linux Sysadmin -- Use Debian Linux als typisch für linux benutzer gilt aber wohl immernoch eher was ala: man blafurz | grep RTFM | cut -c /d 10-2837 | uahha (Adam Kopacz) pgpFhHbC7BZWq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
* Michael Bramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [20010904 17:50]: Now the server can only mail notifications to all packages or to no packages. Should I stop it? * Nick Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] [20010904 21:50]: comments? Only send them to individuals who've asked for them? I'd like to see a general system which can be used to find out how much informational mail maintainers want to receive. For example, this system could then be used by katie as well... or, probably more interesting, by the testing system to inform interested maintainers automatically why their packages have not entered testing yet. Since this should probably be by-package and not by-maintainer, how about a field in debian/control? (I'm not sure it really belongs there, but there were some advantages if it were there; e.g. it can easily be controlled by the maintainer.) Probably something like debconf's system (critical, high, medium, low. For example, a REJECT message from katie would be critical, an INSTALL message lower) or something more sophisticated. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ddts: notification about pt_BR-translation of the hello-debhelper description
On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 05:50:52PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:44:11AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: As an automated mail, to which I have not request, I consider this spam. Please remove me, and all ways of contacting me, from your automated lists. I do not take kindly to unwarranted spam mails. OH, this is now the second 'remove me' request. Now the server can only mail notifications to all packages or to no packages. Should I stop it? Comments? The way I see your current proposals, such notifications will /eventually/ be necessary because maintainers will need to update their source packages with translations. Until then, it's not really necessary. IMHO, we should first reach a conclusion as to *how* a package maintainer should add the translation to the package. However, Adam, I think you overreact a bit. As noted by others, this spam is actually the result of someone spending some time on improving your package. Cheers, Richard -- __ _ |_) /| Richard Atterer | CS student at the Technische | GnuPG key: | \/¯| http://atterer.net | Universität München, Germany | 0x888354F7 ¯ ´` ¯
