Re: [Debconf-team] I wish you a wonderful 2013 DebConf13! (oh, and DebConf14 too)
Quoting Sylvestre Ledru (sylves...@debian.org): For your information, I was motivated to propose Paris as a city for Debconf 14 (or 15). Well, you may want to reconsider this if some of us push you gently enough and confirm that they back you up, Sylvestre. It's been years since people told me personnally, considering my own regular involvment in various Debconfs (though never deeply inside organizing teams)when do you guys move your fingers out of you a***es? We probably just needed someone pushing us hard enough for this and I didn't want to be that person..:-)however, it seems we found a good and reliable person for this. I'd vote for 15 and I would definitely be part of an orga team. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Report from the i18n sprint in Paris, aka towards i18n.debian.org
(this report is also available at http://wiki.debian.org/I18n/Sprint2012Report) From June 15th until June 17th, IRILL[1] (Paris, France) hosted the Debian i18n Sprint, seven people were present. These are the minutes, results and notes from our work, it is a brief description but hopefully complete of what we have done and what is still missing/pending. We would like to thank IRILL for hosting us. In addition, our thanks to the many donors[2] whose contributions have permitted the project to subsidize transportation and lodging. Participants Marti(j)ns --- Martin Bagge Martijn van Oosterhoust Martin Zobel-Helas Frogs - Nicolas François Simon Paillard Christian Perrier Cheerleader --- Felipe Augusto van de Wiel We also had appearances of our hosts, namely Stefano Zacchiroli and Sylvestre Ledru, as well as a short visit by Julien Cristau. Our previous scenario - Since 2006, Debian i18n uses churro, a machine hosted in Spain by Junta de Extremadura. This machine runs our core services: i18n.debian.net and ddtp.debian.net, which were expanded and improved over the last few years and are used spread Debian community. In late 2011 and early 2012, churro started giving signals of its age and we had some failures, which led us to this Sprint, which the main goal was migrating i18n infrastructure and services to official Debian infrastructure, administered by DSA (Debian System Administrators), while at the same time, taking the opportunity to improve and document our tools and processes. Decisions - We took several key decisions before starting the implementation work: * We'll keep i18n.debian.net and ddtp.debian.net running on churro in parallel with i18n.debian.org and ddtp.debian.org, that will allow us to finish the migration while fixing some scripts and reducing the migration/conversion downtime * We'll run the services as locally installed scripts and eventually prepare packages (as in Debian packages) * We wanted to reorganize repositories, add scripts not under versioncontrol, expand documentation before improving what exists * We'll use a GIT repository under git.debian.org * We'll continue to go on with the debian-l10n project on Alioth Machines setup -- Thanks to DSA Team we now have two virtual machines: * tye.debian.org hosting i18n.debian.org / l10n.debian.org * dukas.debian.org hosting ddtp.debian.org Having Martin Zobel-Helas attending the meeting allowed the team to better learn about processes related to DSA-managed machines (account creations, including accounts for non-DD users, packages installation, general system administration of DSA machines) and thus better understand the impact on our processes. Proper email (ingoing and outgoing, with antispam measures) is working on tye and dukas, that will allow us to keep supporting the most used and widely preferred interface of Debian community: the email. A full source mirror in NFS-mounted and can be used by local utilities (such as those gathering the material). We want to reduce the effort of looking into all source packages (more about this on Future Plans). Team members have SSH access as well as the needed sudo authorizations. We also started working to identify the needed packages by gen-material and spider in order to create virtual packages named i18n.debian.org and ddtp.debian.org. These virtual packages are now in the debian.org tree of the repository and have been pulled in by DSA. VCS for scripts and services The existing SVN repository has been converted to git, with four trees at the moment: * compendia: scripts related to translation compendia generation * ddtp: all DDTP and DDTSS scripts. Martijn synchronized theVCS with scripts that are in production on churro * debian-l10n: general team material (documentation, reports, etc.) * dl10n: all dl10n utilities as well as various robot scripts, l10n material gathering script, mailing lists spiders, etc. The existing SVN is now declared obsolete, except for the packaging trees it contains (pootle, translate-toolkit, virtaal). It will be up to maintainers of these packages to move them in git if they want. The suggested name is pkg-package.git. We also took the chance and did a pending cleanup. The content of the old (unused debian-l10n.delete) CVS repository has been removed. You can take a look at our new repositories: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=debian-l10n/compendia.git;a=summary http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=debian-l10n/ddtp.git;a=summary http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=debian-l10n/debian-l10n.git;a=summary http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=debian-l10n/dl10n.git;a=summary debian-l10n Alioth project -- Some cleaning was done on the project. It has two admins (Christian Perrier and Nicolas François) and only active members have been kept as project members (plus people who
Re: [Debconf-discuss] Your biggest achievement during past DebConfs (aka new DebConf promoting campaign)
Quoting Francesca Ciceri (madame...@debian.org): Hey Axel, On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 05:10:27PM +0100, Axel Beckert wrote: Hi, Francesca Ciceri wrote: members of the Debconf Team and Publicity Team need your help!!1!! (nooo! don't hide!!) We'd like to have a quote from all Debian Developers and contributors naming their most important technical and/or social achievement reached during past DebConfs. So where shall we send such quotes? Regards, Axel In this thread? :) And I think could be better to -project instead that debconf-discuss (I've just set reply-to accordingly). Or, if you prefer send me a private reply at madamezou@d.o In DebConf4, I spent days and nights improving the Debian Installer localization infrastructure. Eight years after, most of these achievements are still used to help translating the installation system in more than 70 languages. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Report from participation to India miniDebconf, Mangalore edition
This mail will try to summarize what I learned, discovered, shared, etc. during my stay at the Mangalore edition of India mini DebConfs 2011 [1]. This miniDebConf is the third one scheduled this year in India. The first one in Kuttipuram, Kerala, back in April 2011 had about 25 attendees, while the second one, in Pune, in August 2011 had up to 150 registered attendees. That followed another miniDebConf organized in 2010, in Pune [2]. This edition was organized at the NMAMIT (Nitte MahaLinga Adyanthaya Memorial Institute of Technology) [3], about 50 kilometers north of the coastal city of Mangalore, in the state of Karnataka, in south-west India ([4] and [5]). Organisation was lead by Vasudev Kamath and a very efficient and active team of Computer Science students from the college. This college, overall, has about 4000 students. Organization got full support from the college staff, including the college principal, Dr. S. Y. Kulakarni, who presided the conference inaugural session. My own travel to India was funded by the Debian project assets, with approval of our respected DPL, Stefano Zacchiroli. Hosting and accomodation for invited guests were taken care of by the organizers in the college guest house (that covered about 15 guests as far as I have witnessed). I gave the opening talk, after the formal inauguration ceremony (where I had the great honor of being presented as chief guest, which then included addressing the 150-people audience during the opening ceremony [6]), with a 3-part topic : - introduction to Debian, - contributing to Debiand - Debian internationalization and localization. The first part was largely borrowed from Stefano's slides from talks he gave this year, as I have been impressed by the very clear way he can give a good picture of our project, even for newcomers. Newcomers were here, indeed the target, at least from start, as this talk (and all talks of the first day) was attended by a very high number of students. I tried thus to do my best to give a good picture of the project, without going far into technical details, but by insisting on aspects that make Debian special (in our opinion) among other FLOSS projects: - culture of technical excellence, - promotion of the culture of free software, - independence, - decision making systems (do-ocracy, democracy...). A short parenthesis was made about derivatives and Debian relevance (making reference to Ubuntu, which is clearly the most widely used Linux-based system on our attendees' own machines). The second part about Debian contribution was an adaptation of a talk I already gave a few times, trying to demythify the difficulty of becoming a DD or even only a Debian contributor. I insisted on that part as my feeling over the years I worked with the Debian community in India is that people often hesitate to invest themselves in the project, by some fear of not being able enough. Finally, as localization can be a very good entry point for newcomers (several of our regular contributors in the region started indeed by working on localization). I made an overview of the various aspects of Debian l10n/i18n. I also focused more specifically on localization for languages in the country as we currently support several of them in Debian Installer, and made a comparison between languages of India. My slides for this talk are available on my talks page at [7] (warning, 90's web style ahead!). Later on, Jonas Smedegaard (as part of his Debian Pure Blends trip to Asia[8]) lead a talk about Debian Pure Blends, focusing on how derivatives can work inside Debian instead of outside of it. This (and later discussions) lead to interesting exchanges with representatives of CDAC (Center for Development of Advanced Computing), a government agency that, among many, develops and maintains BOSSLinux, a Debian-based distribution deployed very widely over India on thousands, if not millions, of machines. Jonas will probably develop this aspect on his own, but I found it very positive to see such exchanges, particularly when one knows that exchanges between CDAC/BOSSLinux and the local FLOSS community in India, have sometimes been quite difficult. Such live meetings (as well as those Jonas had in Hyderabad and others he will have in Bangalore) will certainly improve the connection and exchanges between BOSSLinux developers and their upstream, namely Debian. Later on, we planned sessions about internationalization and packaging. Unfortunately, local Internet access conditions, after severe storms that affected the neighbourhood, prevented the planned live work session on DDTP Kannada translations to happen (Kannada is the official language of the state of Karnataka). Instead, I could improvise a general session about localization. During the second day of the conference, attention was focused on contribution to Debian, introduced by a talk by Kartik Mistry about how to become a Debian developerand followed by sessions about packaging. We also
Sponsoring request to attend Mini DebConf India in Mengaluru (October 2011)
(please CC me to answers as I'm not subscribed to -project) Hello, This year, the Debian community in India is organizing four Mini DebConf events[1]. This follows the success of 2010 Mini DebConf in Pune (see [2] for a report by Shirish and [3] for some pictures). The goal of these events is bringing the Debian community in India more opoprtunities to meet up as well as encourage new contributions from the IT community in India. These events have proven to be quite important to the local community due to difficulties for Indian contributors to attend the general yearly DebConf. I have been invited by local organizers to attend the Mini DebConf that is scheduled for October 28 and 29 in Mengaluru (also know as Mangalore, in the state of Karnataka, south-west of the country). It's quite some years since I developed connections among the Debian (and more generally FLOSS) community in India, particularly because of the high interest, there, for localization and internationalization topics. I therefore plan to attend this Mini DebConf with the goal of giving a few talks : Introduction to Debian (there should be some participants from the local colleges and IT academic institutions) How to contribute to Debian (targeted at already knowledgeable people who might not have a clear idea and particularly aimed at making them discover the new ways to contribute such as DM, non-upload DDs, etc.) i18n in Debian (aka that very same bubulle talk with maps and stuff) Depending on the schedule, I might also propose a workshop either on Debian packaging (based on the interesting BOF/demo made by Gergely Nagy at DebConf 11) or a specific real localization activity (maybe a sprint for DDTP in the local language, namely Kannada). Whatever the final schedule is, I will write a detailed report about these activities, how they were received, etc. In order to get better travel fares (and, admitedly, to do some sightseeing as well!), I plan to leave around Oct 24 and come back on Oct 31st. I need sponsoring for the travel, while I can manage to handle lodging and other expenses on my own. Best prices for going there is flying through Mumbai and then use a local low cost airline (Jet Airways or Air India Express) between Mumbai and Mangalore. I found very interesting bargain prices for Paris-Mumbai at 400EUR (Lufthansa rules!). The cost for Mumbai-Mangalore is about EUR150. Therefore, I would like to request for EUR550 sponsoring if the community (and our respected leader) thinks this is worth it. [1] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianIndia/MiniDebConf2011 [2] http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/ [3] http://www.fosscommunity.in/photos/index.php/Minidebconfpune2011/day1 -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: CDD? (was Re: Bhutan releases Dzongkha Debian Linux)
(please keep me CC'ed to answers, I'm not subscribed to -project. Thanks to Paul Wise for pointing me to this thread) Philippe Cloutier wrote: Congratulations, but is this a CDD? If not, what's the canonical name? DDL, Dzongkha Linux, Dzongkha Debian GNU/Linux The name is Dzongkha Debian Linux. The former version of the distribution was Dzongkha Linux because though based on some Debian parts such as the packaging system, other parts were originating from other distros (the installer was Morphix). After the launch of Dzongkha Linux in June 2006, Bhutan's DIT Dzongkha Linux team, leaded by Pema Geyleg, worked on a new version entirely based on Debian. For that reason, they invited Frans for a two-week session of teaching about D-I hacking back in November 2006. The newly (september) announced Dzongkha Debian Linux is the consequence of this. -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
The Debian 500000th bug contest
(reply set to -curiosa to avoid cluttering up other lists. I did not found this very appropriate for d-d-a) Please remember that the Debian 50th bug contest is still opened. As I completely forgot about reminding the enthusiast crowd about this very important event, I extend the bet period by one week. For those who missed the original annoucement (I even can't find it myself, I really suck at announcing things), the contest is very simple: There are good chances that the Debian BTS will turn the #50 mark at some moment during the etch-lenny release cycle. In order to make this more fun, a small contest has been set up. The principle is very simple: please place a bet (one per person) about the day this bug will be reported. The place for bets is the http://wiki.debian.org/50thBugContest wiki page. The winner(s) will be the person(s) placing her|his|their bet as close as possible of the real moment bug #50 is reported. Bets are opened until July 22nd 2007 00:00UTC (hoping that I'll remember about closing the page). In case you care: Bug #10 was reported June 7th 2001 Bug #20 was reported July 4th 2003 Bug #30 was reported March 17th 2005 Bug #40 was reported Nov 23rd 2006 -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
What do (some of) our users await from us?
A few of us (indeed, the people responsible for the various sessions held last year in Extremadura in 2006) have attended the 3rd Free Software World Conference in Badajoz, Spain, from Feb. 7th to 9th.[1] Among the various sessions I personnally attended, one was dedicated to Spanish Linux distributions and turned out to be very interesting to listen. In that sesison, people responsible for various local Linux-based distributions came in and presented their distribution. This was indeed all about works funded by the various regional governments of the spanish regions: - Linex from the Region of Extremadura [2] - Max from the Autonomous community of Madrid council of education [3] - Lliurex from the region of Valencia (Generalitat valienciana) [4] - Guadalinux from the region of Andalucia [5] - Molinux from the region of Castilla-La Mancha [6] *All* of these distribution are indeed Debian Inside as all are Debian(4) or Ubuntu(1) based. This probably gives everybody a good idea of the user base we have in Spain (for instance, the region of Extremadura has now deployed about 80,000 workstations equipped with Linexeven though all others have a noticeably smaller user base). The most interesting part, and the one I wanted to share with you as soon as possible comes from a question I asked to the various people presenting their work, at then end of the session: What do *you* think that *we*, Debian project, could do to make your work easier? (the subliminal question could have also been and not choose to base you work on something else than genuine Debian) The answers were particularly clear, indeed. Let's share: - Stability. Large-scale deployments in non-technical environments do not really expect bleeding-edge software and certainly not too quickly changing behaviour. Knut Yrvin, who was attendign too, rephrased this, from the Skolelinux experience, as if you change the *location* of an icon on the desktop of a classroom machine, you'll get the teacher lost and lose his/her adhesion. - Release predictability All these projects are funded by public entities. The development of these derived works is based on the work of their employees and uses their budgets. Some of these budgets are related to political constraints. This gives time constraints As an informal poll, having an etch release announced in December 2006 and delayed until March 2007 seems fairly acceptable to most of them while the sarge release process has been a nightmare for some of them (which is *confirmed* by Linex developers) A 2-year release cycle is considered as pretty well adapted. - Updated kernels for the stable release The reason is pretty much obvious: support for the new hardware that pops up constantly. Most do not have big control on the nature of the hardware and basing the choice of suppliers for an entire region or country on the fact that the hardware is supported by the satble Debian release is anything but possible. Most of them use backported and more recent kernels but all of those doing this would highly prefer the well-known quality of Deian work. Having an update for stable, with a more recent kernel, happening every 9-10 months is what is judged as a good compromise. All this could help us all to discuss the release goals for lenny when the time for this will come, but I wanted to share it without forgetting. [1] http://www.freesoftwareworldconference.com/en/ [2] http://www.linex.org/ [3] http://www.educa.madrid.org/web/madrid_linux/ [4] http://www.lliurex.net/ [5] http://www.guadalinex.org/ [6] http://www.molinux.info/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: New website layout / design contest?
It is not. For example, Debian Developers usually don't care how many users is Debian sold to. And that is a good thing. Our priorities are our users and free software. So, sorry, but I *do* care about how much users use Debian. And I have the somewhat strange feeling that I'm not alone among DD's. If getting a somewhat appealing web site is a way to do it besides creating the best OS ever, we should try to do it. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proposal: The DFSG do not require source code for data, including firmware
Why would I do that, when you are taking the opposite way? When you believe a commend on a list has no merit, you explicitly ask other people to ignore it, based on a stupid DD/non-DD segregation instead of the merits of the comment. This is not my understanding of aj's comment, Josselin. He did not ask to *ignore* Peter's comment, but only to remind that, Peter not being a DD, the comment can't be told to reflect the DD community opinion. Yes, I'm not completely sure that aj's comment was appropriate but I don't put in it the interpretation you seem to put (awful English, sorry, folks). signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proposal: The DFSG do not require source code for data, including firmware
No, but he blamed Peter for participating in the conversation because he was That's not my understanding of aj's post. From my point of view, he did not blame Peter. He didn't even address him directly. Maybe it is not best for us non-english speaker to comment on the content of aj's post, but i am happy that i am was not the only reacting to it. Maybe it is something french people are more sensible too, as both you, me and Josselin are all french-speakers. Uh, such statement would likely reinforce the common perception that those French dudes really suck at speaking English..:-) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Proposal: The DFSG do not require source code for data, including firmware
reminder was, is rude and inappropriate. That's not the first tham that aj does such reminders[1], and especiall beeing the DPL[2], I find that disturbing. Well, even being the DPL, aj is perfectly allowed to have personal opinions, even some that you (or me) may find irrelevant or wrong. As far as I know, Anthony did not yell out hey, I'm the boss here and here's the Boss opinion. This year we have a DPL who is very active in the ML, whether we like his opinions or not. I actually tend to like it but that's not a reason for me to take all posts by Anthony as the Speech from the Throne...:) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Unbranding Debian? (was: Re: Debian Powered Logo)
If we made it easy to rebrand Debian, that would encourage people to resell it, and it would give us some control over how that rebranding was done, allowing us to encourage them to promote themselves AND us! This is actually what has been made by the D-I team. Most parts of D-I are now unbranded, after a complete collaboration between Colin Watson, wearing his Ubuntu hat, and Frans, Joey and myself, mostly, wearing our we're not Canonincal employees hat. It went flawlessly and, up to now, no-one has complained while in the same time, we made Colin's work easier when merging D-I changes in Ubuntu. As a consequence, Colin is more available to collaborate with the D-I team. So, both of us did benefit from this. Of course, *now* maybe some people will complain that we unbranded D-I..:-) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [SUMMARY] About terminology for stable/testing/unstable and related issues
The word section already has an assigned meaning in Debian; each package has its assigned section defined in its control file, i.e. admin, editors, games, libs, mail, etc. I think that Florian's suggestion was adding a paragraph about sections in my document, not using sections for anything else than what it's used for currently. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [SUMMARY] About terminology for stable/testing/unstable and related issues
If there are no strong objections in -project, I'm opened to suggestions about the Right Way to handle the further life of this proposal, to make it alittle bit more official: -conclude it and post in -devel-announce...:-) -make the discussion wider in -devel and continue it there Well, I think we should come up with this now. The discussion core is clearly suite vs branch. I have to confess that I'm hardly balancing between both. Filipus developed an interesting and well argumented explanation to push branch and I find it convincing...at least as convincing as pro-suite arguments. So, unless someone else brings more arguments here, I'll summarize again, crosspost to -devel and try to have the discussion there focus on suite vs branch My later intent is to propose an amendment to the developer's reference to reflect this and carve the discussion in stone. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Google summer of code
(keeping CC for the moment. I suggest to keep -project CC'ed as long as the topic is still close to Google Summer of Code) Quoting Martin Michlmayr ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): * Gasper Zejn [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-05-02 22:36]: I intend to apply for Google's summer of code for Debian's I18N infrastructure plan. Is there somebody I should discuss this with or should I just submit the application? Reviewing the discussions that happened on the debian-i18n list recently would certainly be a good idea. I was thinking about GSoC for the recurrent topic of i18n infrastructure. However, our ideas about it are currently not clear. The planned i18n meeting in Extremadura/Spain next September is mostly aimed at drawing these ideas into a real plan to have something setup. I also want to take the opportunity of the Debconf next week to throw out early ideas and prepare that meeting. Up to now, various existing solutions have been evaluated and discussed, such as Pootle, transdict or even Rosetta. But, my own personal opinion is that going for this or that tool befre having a clear idea of what we need is a bit wrong. In short, I would have hard times writing down a project with a clear goal, and probably even more hard times mentoring it ( but that could be done by someone else), mostly because low availability during summer time. So, I can't refrain anyone to go along with this but I'm unsure about the timing. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
About terminology for stable/testing/unstable
A recent discussion popped up in the French l10n mailing list (http://lists.debian.org/debian-l10n-french/2006/04/msg00539.html, in French) about the terminology to use for writing documentation and making reference to stable/testing/unstable in various parts of our documentation/web site and even packages (D-I for instance). The discussion is still not finished to decide what term we should use in our translations. We currently consistently use distribution which has the same meaning than the English word. However, when looking at various original documentation we have in the project about this, it appears that some more consistency could be achieved. distribution is sometimes used (as in http://www.debian.org/releases/) but so is suite (for instance in most code) and sometimes version The most commonly used term seems to be distribution, as in the FAQ or most web pages that talk about stable/testing/unstable. I however find that this term is somewhat confusing as, for many outsiders, distribution is usually taken as a general term to talk about different operating systems distributions (or, more trivially speaking, about Linux distributions) such as the Mandriva distribution, the Debian distribution and the like. A good example of why this may be confusing is the installer. The debconf question that currently prompts users for choosing between stable/testing/unstable is labelled: Debian version to install dans says Debian comes in several flavors The installer takes great care of being friendly to newcomers and it seems quite significant to me that this term was chosenprobably because distribution would have been too confusing. My personal opinion is that we should maybe use branch rather than distribution to avoid that confusion. This is what the French team is considering (there are some people who object to this, though). After all, from our users point of view and from what I see when people use Debian, they choose between stable, testing and unstable just as if they were choosing between various development branches of the same software. Of course, strictly speaking, testing is not a branch because it mostly automatically derives from unstable but the difference is not really obvious (and not really significant) for users. That would leave us with: Distribution: used to talk about Debian in general, whichever branch is used Branch (or suite): used to talk about stable, testing and unstable and explain differences between all of them or the ways they are developed Release : used to talk about the successive releases of Debian as a distribution: potato, woody, sargeas well as the release updates Version : used when using numerical version numbers (3.1r2, etc..) I understand this is somewhat tricky and it may become very easy to nitpick about the assumptions I made above but I'd really like to see us accept that not everything is easy to understand from an outsider point of view, in our terminology. Comments welcomed (heh, I subscribed to -project just for this...) -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Setting up i18n.debian.org?
Internationalisation Collaboration Server. Jaldhar H. Vyas [5]asked if it would be possible to set up a central website for coordinating translation efforts within Debian. He suggested several tools which were working like Ubuntu's proprietary Rosetta tool. Margarita Manterola [6]added that such a website would encourage a lot of people to contribute to Debian who were unable to do so with the existing translation tools. 5. http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/03/msg00280.html 6. http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/03/msg00282.html (thanks DWN for pointing this: as I don't read -project, I missed this thread) Well, this topic is a recurrent topic on -i18n, Jaldhar. Actually, this is the goal I have for the i18n meeting in Extremadura (http://wiki.debian.org/WorkSessionExtremadura2006i18n): either do some initial work on setting up some early infrastructure or at the minimum work on the requisites for it. Discussions at Debconf, during, or after, the round table Javier Fernàndez-Sanguino and I will present/animatewill also help converging on the requirements for an i18n infrastructure. I suggest that further discussion continues on -i18n which is IMHO its natural placeor stays crossposted but, please, keep -i18n CC'ed... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Debian-in-workers] Re: Debian on one dvd?
So has anyone done anything like this before? Yes. I did that for Linuxtag and Cebit. Actually I had a multiboot DVD, booting i386, amd64 and powerpc. We had a few of these Linuxtag DVD's at the [EMAIL PROTECTED] trade show in Paris, Novemer 2005. They were IMHO fairly well suited for including in a magazine. So, instead of reinventing a well-designed wheel, I suggest Jaldhar to point the magazine editor to this DVD image. With very few modifications (maybe some germanisation here or there), it could be well-suited. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Upload of the iso-codes package - issue of the MK country name
For interested parties... Iso-codes including a common name for MKD being Macedonia, Republic of while the field for official name still contains Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia has been uploaded to the delayed/2-day queue. Macedonia, Republic of has been chosen over Republic of Macedonia in order to remain consistent with other entries which have Republic/Kingdom/... appearing after the name. This leads to a more natural sorting of names and will make the choice easier to our users. Replacing the former entry (FYROM) is the consequence of the discussion which can be followed on the debian-project mailing list: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2004/09/msg00127.html This means that the package will be part of Debian unstable in 2 days. And it will reach the testing branch (thus the next stable version) in 12 days if no Release Critical bug appears. This is a NMU (non maintainer upload) made in agreement with Alastair McKinstry, the package maintainer as he hadn't time enough for taking care of this. I have worked with translators of the package, asking them to change their translations and choose what they all feel is the most appropriate. Most of them have chosen to use the equivalent, in their language, of Macedonia, Republic of. The Greek translation has been kept as is, thus the greek equivalent of FYROM. This was a choice by Konstantinos even though his own feelings were more inclined to Macedonia, Republic of. He justifies this by the strong reactions which would certainly occur among Greek users if he unilateraly changes his translation. I think that he made the best decision for that part. With this decision, we (package maintainers, on behalf of the Debian project) have tried to apply the less worse compromise for all Debian users, waiting for the case to be politically sorted out. The countrychooser package (the installer module responsible for prompting users about the country they live in) has been rebuilt by using these data. The consequence is the following: - Users in English language and wanting to choose MK as country (though there is no en_MK locale, this is possible), will see a first screen presenting them with most English-speaking countries and a other choiceWhen using other, the next screen shows Macedonia, Republic of among all other countries. This is the one and only place this name appears - The same goes for all other non-English/non-Greek/Non-Macedonian languages : the name only appears on the other screen and the name appearing there is the one which has been judged the most appropriate by the relevant translator. - Users choosing the Greek language will never see any country choice on default installs, because the only greek locale in Debian is el_GR. So, only users doing install at expert priority will see a screen prompting them for a country. In this screen, the name for MK will be the greek equivalent of FYROM -Users choosing Macedonian (this translation does not exist yet so, this is a theoretical case) will never see any country choice screen for default installs and will see Macedonia, Republic of on expert-style installs The contents of the iso-codes package is currently no used anywhere else in Debian, as far as we know. For instance, the country names list in KDE is maintained upstream by KDE developers (for the record, it lists Macedonia ATM...) I hope that this decision, as a conclusion of this discussion where too much heat leaked in too much places, will be agreed by as mush users as possible. Some translators probably need to adapt their translation of the entry for MK as I haven't been able to contact them, so if they wish to change what is currently in the iso-codes package, they should contact me.
Re: Two Macedonias: Apologies.
I think that i have been insulting and jerky toward Christian Perrier in that email, and would like to offer my apologies. Thank you for this (always not easy). Don't worry too much, I've not been hurted so badly and, well, this is life when you have to deal with highly sensitive topics (and, on that point I don't agree with George, we are forced to deal with them as soon as we enter the i18n/l10n field). I think that my friend Kostas has been hurted much more (by other people) and still deserves some apologies, however. I hope you won't be hurted too much by the decision I finally made on that topic...because we had to take one. Please followup on -project (see MFT...I hope I made good use of it). I just wanted to publicly ACK Siward's apologies.
Re: Two Macedonias
(far too long CC list removed) I'm afraid you're mixing a lot of stuff in your mail. However, you didn't give us more solutions to the current problem. By chance, this solution is appearing as the name Republic of Macedonia seems acceptable to the people who raised this issue : the Macedonian localisation group. I will just answer a very few key points where you have wrong view on the way the Debian Installer works. And I'll add some comments in the part talking about Konstantinos. For example: suppose Debian used 'Macedonia' for Republic Macedonia, and suppose that people in Florina (in Greek Macedonia (i hope)) want to install Debian Sarge. They start the installer, see they have the possibility to choose 'Macedonia', and choose that. Thereby getting the whole installer in a slavic language that they not only may not understand, but which they associate with 'having stolen one of their important groupnames'. That is simply impossible. In Debian Installer, you first choose the language. People in the above situation will choose Greek as language and will then have the opportunity if choosing a country only if they're doing an expert installation. This is because, there is currently only one supported language_country combination in Debian (a locale) for Greek : el_EL for Greek in Greece. Maybe some day, another locale with Greek as language will exist (for instance el_CY for Greek in Cyprus). Then the uses will get a short list with the supported countries and an other choice. If people are doing an expert install, they will have the full world country list...and MK will be listed there the way the Greek translator will have translated it. In that case, I'm pretty sure he will choose a non ambiguous name. On the other hand, people living in MK will probably choose Macedonian from the first screen (if the translation is made some day) and it will be obvious that this is the slavic language named Macedonian, codename mk. Debian can not use 'Macedonia' for Republic Macedonia. If this becomes the country name in ISO-3166, Debian *will* use it. At the moment, using Republic of Macedonia seems a better choice. To the ones that called Kyrie Margaritos a 'seller of his country' : Konstantinos Margaritis.I think he will not like having his name misspelled... To the ones that did this, they're simply crappy narrow-minded nationalist jerks. Kostas (his favorite nickname) is currently the one who did the most for Greek localisation in Debian and he proved several times that he does this because he loves his mother language and his country. So accusing him to sell his country is just so deeply stupid that someone using this as an argument just deserves to be ignored. I have kept the greek localisation list CC'ed because I suspect that these insults thrown at Kostas came from there (unfortunately I can't read Greek so the list archives weren't useful for me). If some people there are responsible for these insults thrown at Kostas, they should really re-consider their involvment in Debian (because doing so made them lose a lot of credit) or prepare an apology.
Re: Two Macedonias
Quoting Anton Zinoviev ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): On Sat, Sep 25, 2004 at 02:47:51PM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: Macedonian Republic (the latter is better for sorting issues). Please don't use Macedonian Republic, but Macedonia, Republic of OK, point taken. Remember, folks that this decision pertains to the iso-codes package maintainer. Summarizing the recent discussion and sending the final agreement should be made to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Two Macedonias
(CC list reduced as of the request of George) Quoting Ognyan Kulev ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Anton Zinoviev wrote: I am a member of a Macedonian mailing list so I can tell you what the macedonians wrote. (http://hedona.on.net.mk/mailman/listinfo/ossm-members) Yes, they prefer Macedonia to Macedonia, Rep. of. However they would also accept Macedonia, Rep. of because this is the constitutional name of their country and not something attached to them by someone else. I read the 2 relevant threads in this list. Unfortunately, there isn't any sign of opinion about Macedonia (Slav). Well, I have the feeling that it may be offensive to non slavic minorities in MK, if there are some. So, keeping a non ethnic name (sorry for the bad word...no offense intended) sounds better to me and this is why I would tend to favour Republic of Macedonia or Macedonian Republic (the latter is better for sorting issues).
