RE: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Mark Allums]

> >> Not really, you at least need to manually add a link, regarding to the
> >> different program names.
> >
> > I never did, and never had to.  It works fine.
> 
> Just because you're using software that doesn't use this software as a
> dependency.

I don't know what you are talking about.


> >> Sure, if mate-file-archiver is installed, you might not need
> >> file-roller, but you perhaps want to be able to install a DE by it's
> >> meta-packages, but this doesn't work, if one of the DEs is Mate, because
> >> those packages cause conflicts.
> >
> >
> > Again, never a problem for me, since v. 1.2.
> >
> > I don't have any package named mate-file-archiver installed or available
> > to install.  There's engrampa, which does not conflict at all with
> > file-roller.
> 
> Upstream:
> 
> https://github.com/mate-desktop/debian-packages
>-->
> https://github.com/mate-desktop/debian-packages/tree/master/mate-file-
> archiver
> 
> https://github.com/mate-desktop/archlinux-packages
>-->
> https://github.com/mate-desktop/archlinux-packages/tree/master/mate-
> file-archiver


It's out-of-date.



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Re: apt-get vs. aptitude

[Dmitrii Kashin]

Tom H  writes:

>>> Have you filed a bug report about aptitude breaking apt (whatever
>>> that means!) or is this just FUD?
>>
>> No, I have not. Because it is normal aptitude's behaviour.
>>
>> It was a cognitive case...
>
> You start out by replying that this isn't a bug but normal for
> aptitude!

Yes, it's normal for aptitude, but isn't it ugliness?

> And I agree.
>
> Aptitude gives you the option to to install a piece of software
> without a hard dependency (and then dealing with the consequences) or
> of overriding a previous choice of software installation.
>
> It gives you a choice! It doesn't install packages that breaks your
> installation or conflicts with your requirements without your consent!

Great. It gives me a choice to break my system, and the only thing that
separates me from it is the letter 'y'. Thanks. I do not like this
choice. I would prefer not to have it.

> Not only is aptitude not broken but it doesn't break apt since you can
> still use apt-get/aptitude to install other packages.

Did you read carefully. or your aim is to start a new holywar?


pgp0X0mZTG7ly.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 00:22:47 +0200
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

> 
> 
> Le 12.10.2013 00:01, Paul Cartwright a écrit :
> > On 10/11/2013 05:21 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org [1] wrote:
> >
> >> It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be
> >> a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have
> > the
> >> *AUTHORIZATIONS* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more
> >> precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes.
> >  the difference is, you don't have a "mechanic" for Debian, you ARE
> > the mechanic. YOU make it better ( or worse), so yes you ARE the
> > sysadmin. your other users cannot maintain the system, they cannot
> > update the system, they cannot destroy the system. You can update
> > it, maintain it, destroy it, all by yourself.
> 
> I think we simply disagree on what a sysadmin is.
> So, I'll now use a definition that I does not have created, from a 
> source which is often considered as quite good, wikipedia:
> 
> ===
> A system administrator, or sysadmin, is a person who is responsible
> for the upkeep, configuration, and reliable operation of computer
> systems; especially multi-user computers, such as servers.
> ===
> 
> The keyword here is "multi-user", with the constraints it apply. If
> you manage your own computer, then, ok, you are the admin of your
> computer. You are not a sysadmin.
> That's my opinion, and I accept to discuss about it, but
> unfortunately, I must admit that your argument is not strong enough
> to convince me, and that I can not find an argument that I think you
> could hear. Except the authority argument I just used, which I
> consider as many other people as a weak one ( at least I was able to
> quote, and not simply say "I know someone which...". Better than
> usual in that kind of arguments ).
> 
There are infinite shadings of gray.  I, a 'simple home user' (Sid),
also enjoy my wife (Wheezy) and daughter (Wheezy) having their own
hardware in their own space but on the same LAN using our ISP's DSL
modem and a Linksys router.  I administer their systems through GNOME's
Remote Desktop Viewer and synaptic, basic stuff if you ask me, updating
as necessary from my own machine.   Usually they don['t even know.  I
know that I am not all that knowledgeable vis-a-vis Linux, but so far
have been able to keep up. In addition, I have set up our Visioneer
OneTouch 7300 USB scanner to use with Linux.  Do that. 

(in truth, it isn't that hard)

Am I a sysadmin?  Am I just lucky?

I just yesterday converted both Wife's and my own systems to use a wifi
hotspot, installing the wifi PCIe cards and configuring them, set up
the tablets (including a Pengpod 100 running Android and Linaro Linux)
and smart phones to use it when it is in range. 

Where is my own spot on that sysadmin role?  Is I one-0-them?  Am I just
a simple user?

Hey, so  I've got a cool nym and have had it for a very long time
(94? 95?) , but it is only a cool nym, not indicative of anything.  I'm
a carpenter with a side interest in computers.

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
Nice computers don't go down.
Larry Niven, Steven Barnes
"The Barsoom Project"


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Re: OT for this OT: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/11/2013 9:15 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:



Wikipedia is hardly what I would call "reliable".


Many people claim that many Wikis are bad. I disagree, it's a lexicon
that is much better than most, if not all reputable printed lexica. If
you find a bad Wiki, please correct it, make it better.



I never said it was bad.  Only that it's not a reliable source.


A few Wikis are not only much better than reputable printed lexica, they
are very good, they are at least at a higher academic standard.

All non-fiction has got weak points, you'll find people writing things
like "The Lies And Fallacies Of The Encyclopedia Britanica".

Reading an article of a lexicon can't impart what 30 years of studying a
field does teach, but Wikis or something similar should be good enough
for semantics formation. I don't care about how anybody of us defines
"sysadmin" or about "levels" of administering, so I don't know this
Wiki.

Since Jerry has got doubts about Wiki articles, I wonder that Jerry does
quote Wikis too:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/09/msg00204.html

So it might be better to disagree about the interpretation of a Wiki,
but not about the generell reliability of Wikis.




So I also quote them occasionally.  That does not mean I think they are 
reliable.


However, trolls do pounce on individual words and phrases and try to 
twist them around to suit them, because they are either unable to carry 
on an intelligent discussion, or have on intelligent response.


Jerry


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Miles Fidelman]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

On 10/11/2013 6:22 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:



Le 12.10.2013 00:01, Paul Cartwright a écrit :

On 10/11/2013 05:21 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org [1] wrote:


It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be
a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have

the

*AUTHORIZATIONS* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more
precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes.

 the difference is, you don't have a "mechanic" for Debian, you ARE
the mechanic. YOU make it better ( or worse), so yes you ARE the
sysadmin. your other users cannot maintain the system, they cannot
update the system, they cannot destroy the system. You can update it,
maintain it, destroy it, all by yourself.


I think we simply disagree on what a sysadmin is.
So, I'll now use a definition that I does not have created, from a
source which is often considered as quite good, wikipedia:

===
A system administrator, or sysadmin, is a person who is responsible for
the upkeep, configuration, and reliable operation of computer systems;
especially multi-user computers, such as servers.
===

The keyword here is "multi-user", with the constraints it apply. If you
manage your own computer, then, ok, you are the admin of your computer.
You are not a sysadmin.
That's my opinion, and I accept to discuss about it, but unfortunately,
I must admit that your argument is not strong enough to convince me, and
that I can not find an argument that I think you could hear. Except the
authority argument I just used, which I consider as many other people as
a weak one ( at least I was able to quote, and not simply say "I know
someone which...". Better than usual in that kind of arguments ).




Wikipedia is hardly what I would call "reliable".  This "definition" 
is one person's opinion, nothing more.


I happen to disagree.  Even single user systems need sysadmins. And 
the sysadmin is the person ultimately responsible for the operation of 
the system.


If all you have for an "authority" is Wikipedia, then your "argument" 
is not strong enough to convince me.


Jerry


I think this pretty much sums up "sysadmin"
http://xkcd.com/705/



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sat, 2013-10-12 at 02:22 +0300, Terho Uotila wrote:
> "rootly powers doesn't make sysadmin"
> "rootly powers makes sysadmin"

What is meant by "sysadmin" depends to the context.


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OT for this OT: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Ralf Mardorf]

> Wikipedia is hardly what I would call "reliable".

Many people claim that many Wikis are bad. I disagree, it's a lexicon
that is much better than most, if not all reputable printed lexica. If
you find a bad Wiki, please correct it, make it better.

A few Wikis are not only much better than reputable printed lexica, they
are very good, they are at least at a higher academic standard.

All non-fiction has got weak points, you'll find people writing things
like "The Lies And Fallacies Of The Encyclopedia Britanica".

Reading an article of a lexicon can't impart what 30 years of studying a
field does teach, but Wikis or something similar should be good enough
for semantics formation. I don't care about how anybody of us defines
"sysadmin" or about "levels" of administering, so I don't know this
Wiki.

Since Jerry has got doubts about Wiki articles, I wonder that Jerry does
quote Wikis too:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/09/msg00204.html

So it might be better to disagree about the interpretation of a Wiki,
but not about the generell reliability of Wikis.


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gnome depends on adblock-plus

[berenger . morel]

Well, as I claimed more than once here, I am not a DE user, but I have 
read today something ( on linuxfr ) which surprise me a lot, and it seem 
that reading is true, from : gnome depends on xul-ext-adblock-plus.


I always thought that dependencies were here for technical reasons, and 
I can not imagine how a complete DE could depend on a web browser 
extension, and it becomes worse when the extension in question have 
side-effects on important subjects like neutrality.


So, I would like to know if someone knows why this dependency exists, 
instead of a recommendation or suggestion.
Without the problem of ideology, on which I do not want to go, so I'll 
stay on technical point.


Having gnome depending on an iceweasel extension, which in turn depends 
on iceweasel does simply seems stupid, for more than one reason:
_ gnome, or even iceweasel should only suggest, or recommend, 
extensions. The web browser does not need it to work fine.
_ gnome should depends on iceweasel, which in turn should be linked to 
some extensions.


There is a bug report, here ( 
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=689858 ) which is one 
year old.
I am not familiar with the debian bug tracking system, and am only 
reporting here a link provided to me through a forum, but I have seen no 
reply of gnome's maintainer, so I am asking here to know if there is a 
technical reason for that dependency, of something which makes gnome 
still depending hardly on that firefox's only extension, still being 
here after a year (the messages in the bug report are here since 2012).
Someone mentioned that someone should report that to the technical 
comity, but... I do not really feel like I am well placed to do this, so 
I am asking to userlist if someone knows the reason behind the 
non-fixing of the issue.



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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 12.10.2013 02:24, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

On 10/11/2013 6:22 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:



Le 12.10.2013 00:01, Paul Cartwright a écrit :

On 10/11/2013 05:21 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org [1] wrote:

It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to 
be

a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have

the

*AUTHORIZATIONS* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more
precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes.

 the difference is, you don't have a "mechanic" for Debian, you ARE
the mechanic. YOU make it better ( or worse), so yes you ARE the
sysadmin. your other users cannot maintain the system, they cannot
update the system, they cannot destroy the system. You can update 
it,

maintain it, destroy it, all by yourself.


I think we simply disagree on what a sysadmin is.
So, I'll now use a definition that I does not have created, from a
source which is often considered as quite good, wikipedia:

===
A system administrator, or sysadmin, is a person who is responsible 
for
the upkeep, configuration, and reliable operation of computer 
systems;

especially multi-user computers, such as servers.
===

The keyword here is "multi-user", with the constraints it apply. If 
you
manage your own computer, then, ok, you are the admin of your 
computer.

You are not a sysadmin.
That's my opinion, and I accept to discuss about it, but 
unfortunately,
I must admit that your argument is not strong enough to convince me, 
and
that I can not find an argument that I think you could hear. Except 
the
authority argument I just used, which I consider as many other 
people as
a weak one ( at least I was able to quote, and not simply say "I 
know

someone which...". Better than usual in that kind of arguments ).




Wikipedia is hardly what I would call "reliable".


Did not I said "often" ?


If all you have for an "authority" is Wikipedia, then your "argument"
is not strong enough to convince me.


And I admitted it myself, that it was a weak one. I think we simply 
disagree on the meaning of the word, and maybe because of the fact that 
I am not a native or even good English speaker, I reached my limits on 
this discussion. That was the most important thing I said in my previous 
mail.



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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 10/11/2013 6:22 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:



Le 12.10.2013 00:01, Paul Cartwright a écrit :

On 10/11/2013 05:21 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org [1] wrote:


It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be
a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have

the

*AUTHORIZATIONS* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more
precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes.

 the difference is, you don't have a "mechanic" for Debian, you ARE
the mechanic. YOU make it better ( or worse), so yes you ARE the
sysadmin. your other users cannot maintain the system, they cannot
update the system, they cannot destroy the system. You can update it,
maintain it, destroy it, all by yourself.


I think we simply disagree on what a sysadmin is.
So, I'll now use a definition that I does not have created, from a
source which is often considered as quite good, wikipedia:

===
A system administrator, or sysadmin, is a person who is responsible for
the upkeep, configuration, and reliable operation of computer systems;
especially multi-user computers, such as servers.
===

The keyword here is "multi-user", with the constraints it apply. If you
manage your own computer, then, ok, you are the admin of your computer.
You are not a sysadmin.
That's my opinion, and I accept to discuss about it, but unfortunately,
I must admit that your argument is not strong enough to convince me, and
that I can not find an argument that I think you could hear. Except the
authority argument I just used, which I consider as many other people as
a weak one ( at least I was able to quote, and not simply say "I know
someone which...". Better than usual in that kind of arguments ).




Wikipedia is hardly what I would call "reliable".  This "definition" is 
one person's opinion, nothing more.


I happen to disagree.  Even single user systems need sysadmins.  And the 
sysadmin is the person ultimately responsible for the operation of the 
system.


If all you have for an "authority" is Wikipedia, then your "argument" is 
not strong enough to convince me.


Jerry


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 19:19 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> Do you really think that the intention of the GNOME developers when
> they designed gvfs was to create software that damages drives?!

I never claimed this, but nowadays the software does kill drives, today
it's outdated. Some DEs don't use GVFS and for Xfce it's an optional
dependency.


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 18:43 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ralf Mardorf
>  wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:42:44 +0200, Tom H  wrote:
> >>
> >> MATE can be installed alongside other DEs on Fedora so I'm not at all
> >> convinced by this MATE-conflicts-with-"common-software" meme!
> >> Soneone said upthread that MATE uses GTK2. AFAIK it's being
> >> transitioned to GTK3 so it'll then be less of a burden to package it
> >> for Debian.
> >
> > Correct, Mate does a transition to GTK3, but as explained before, it still
> > would be a PITA to make packages for official repositories, since you need
> > to prevent against such a conflict:
> >
> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:43:43 +0200, Alex Moonshine 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Sorry, but why would one need mate-file-archiver (Engrampa) and
> >> file-roller on the same machine? The former is a fork of the latter
> >> (and to all practical means just the same package under different
> >> name). Same goes for nautilus/caja, gedit/pluma, etc.
> >> I think that either you use MATE DE and Engrampa replaces file-roller
> >> for you, or, if you want to install MATE on a system that already has
> >> some other DE with file-roller installed, that you want to keep, you
> >> install mate-base package, which (I believe) includes none of extra
> >> applications (and you can go on using file-roller under MATE).
> >
> > Somebody might want to test GNOME 3 and Mate on the same install. There are
> > workarounds. I e.g. didn't install mate-file-archiver and add a link
> > /usr/bin/matedialog -> zenity.
> 
> One of the reasons for using a distribution is for its maintainers to
> take care of such issues for their users.
> 
> Fedora must've dealt with this issue. (I assume that Mint has too!)
> 
> If Debian were to package MATE, it would do so too. If the Debian
> maintainers of two packages can't agree, there's a technical committee
> to propose/impose a solution.
> 
> The example that you gave was from Arch; its maintainers simply didn't
> do the right thing (in this particular instance, not overall!). That
> doesn't mean that MATE is broken or that it breaks other packages.

The Mate repository is definitive _not_ an official Arch repository,
IIUC it's provided by Mate upstream. However, an official Arch
repositories would follow upstream.

Even for distros that do not follow upstream there isn't a technical
solution for this issue that could be solved by a committee.



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Re: Problems preseeding Wheezy (7.1)

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Richard Owlett  wrote:
> Tom H wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 11:03 AM, Richard Owlett 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2. I base my preseed.cfg on the example at
>>> http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/example-preseed.txt . Near the end
>>> of
>>> the install process I'm asked to specify a keyboard layout though one was
>>> specified near the beginning of the file.
>>
>> Pass "DEBCONF_DEBUG=5" to the commandline and, when the installation
>> stops, switch to VT4 to see which preseed value is blocking the
>> progress
>
> The relavant line appears to be
> Oct 11 19:15:56 debconf: --> INPUT critical keyboard-configuration/layout

So you need to preseed keyboard-configuration/layout.


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Terho Uotila]

On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 00:11:01 +0200
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

> Oh, of course, if you speak about giving yourself a label, then,
> fine. Take the one you want. But, it does not mean that you can claim
> to be a professional, or that you can say someone is a professional.
> 
It seemed to me that "rootly powers doesn't make sysadmin" camp equated
sysadmin with _professional_ sysadmin (or as job title), and above kind
of confirms this.

(I believe) other camp ("rootly powers makes sysadmin") on the other
hand is talking about role person performs in administering system,
whether in professional capacity or non-professional. (I admit I'm in
this group.)

I hope this helps you all agree on something. :)


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Ralf Mardorf
 wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:44:11 +0200, Tom H  wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Ralf Mardorf
>>  wrote:



 Have you considered NAS?
>>>
>>> No way!
>>
>> What's wrong with NAS to elicit such a rejection?
>
> Money.

Wouldn't that have been a better answer the first time around?


>>> GVFS is absolutely optional software.
>>
>> You only ever consider things from your limited use-case
>
> No.

See below...


>> Simply because you mount external drives manually
>> or via udev-without-gvfs, doesn't mean that this is the best way for
>> the majority.
>
> It's better to install software that damages the drives instead?
> Why not making it optional, as it's done for Xfce's Thunar?

Do you really think that the intention of the GNOME developers when
they designed gvfs was to create software that damages drives?!


>> You've also complained in this thread and previously about compliance
>> with green drives. I could've replied: "I only ever connect an
>> external drive to my computer long enough to copy in and/or copy out
>> files. So the Brussels bureaucrats who came up with this standard have
>> yet again mis-spent my tax GBP by wasting their time on researching,
>> writing, publishing, and enforcing this nonsense - and probably making
>> drives more expensive in order to comply with this standard!"
>
> I'm against this EU Regulation too (I guess you only think about your
> limited use-case;) but this has nothing to do with the fact that GVFS is
> crappy software, so I'm also against GVFS waking up a drive without a valid
> reason. Being against the EU Regulation doesn't mean that I'm against
> sleeping external drives.

You missed the "could've" like a previous poster.

If the regulation is to save electricity and drives, why not?

The point of the paragraph was to show you an example of what I
*_COULD'VE_* written if I were solely thinking of my own use-case.


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[berenger . morel]

Le 12.10.2013 00:46, Tom H a écrit :
On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:14 PM,   
wrote:

Le 11.10.2013 20:44, Tom H a écrit :

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Ralf Mardorf
 wrote:

You've also complained in this thread and previously about 
compliance

with green drives. I could've replied: "I only ever connect an
external drive to my computer long enough to copy in and/or copy 
out

files.


Most of the people I know which uses external drives, and I speak 
here about
drives, no small data containers, is to use, for example, music, 
films, and

such stored on that harddrive.


Did you notice the "could've"?


Ermm... no, sorry :) did not noticed :/


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:14 PM,   wrote:
> Le 11.10.2013 20:44, Tom H a écrit :
>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Ralf Mardorf
>>  wrote:
>>
>> You've also complained in this thread and previously about compliance
>> with green drives. I could've replied: "I only ever connect an
>> external drive to my computer long enough to copy in and/or copy out
>> files.
>
> Most of the people I know which uses external drives, and I speak here about
> drives, no small data containers, is to use, for example, music, films, and
> such stored on that harddrive.

Did you notice the "could've"?


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Re: Problems preseeding Wheezy (7.1)

[Brian]

On Fri 11 Oct 2013 at 10:03:55 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> 1. Being on dialup, I use a purchased copy of the 10 DVD set for
> installation.
> My preseed.cfg is on a USB stick. I use the "Automated install"
> option. Pressing  allows me to specify the file location. Of
> course it comes to a halt saying the configuration file could not be

Why "of course . . ."? You make it sound as thogh you expected this to
be the normal outcome.

> found. Switching screens with ALT-F2 allows mounting the USB stick.
> I think there should be a "better way". But I was told about a year
> ago "that's how it's done". Has anything changed?

A link to this advice would put some perspective on your problem.


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Ralf Mardorf
 wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:42:44 +0200, Tom H  wrote:
>>
>> MATE can be installed alongside other DEs on Fedora so I'm not at all
>> convinced by this MATE-conflicts-with-"common-software" meme!
>> Soneone said upthread that MATE uses GTK2. AFAIK it's being
>> transitioned to GTK3 so it'll then be less of a burden to package it
>> for Debian.
>
> Correct, Mate does a transition to GTK3, but as explained before, it still
> would be a PITA to make packages for official repositories, since you need
> to prevent against such a conflict:
>
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:43:43 +0200, Alex Moonshine 
> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, but why would one need mate-file-archiver (Engrampa) and
>> file-roller on the same machine? The former is a fork of the latter
>> (and to all practical means just the same package under different
>> name). Same goes for nautilus/caja, gedit/pluma, etc.
>> I think that either you use MATE DE and Engrampa replaces file-roller
>> for you, or, if you want to install MATE on a system that already has
>> some other DE with file-roller installed, that you want to keep, you
>> install mate-base package, which (I believe) includes none of extra
>> applications (and you can go on using file-roller under MATE).
>
> Somebody might want to test GNOME 3 and Mate on the same install. There are
> workarounds. I e.g. didn't install mate-file-archiver and add a link
> /usr/bin/matedialog -> zenity.

One of the reasons for using a distribution is for its maintainers to
take care of such issues for their users.

Fedora must've dealt with this issue. (I assume that Mint has too!)

If Debian were to package MATE, it would do so too. If the Debian
maintainers of two packages can't agree, there's a technical committee
to propose/impose a solution.

The example that you gave was from Arch; its maintainers simply didn't
do the right thing (in this particular instance, not overall!). That
doesn't mean that MATE is broken or that it breaks other packages.


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 12.10.2013 00:01, Paul Cartwright a écrit :

On 10/11/2013 05:21 PM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org [1] wrote:


It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be
a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have

the

*AUTHORIZATIONS* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more
precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes.

 the difference is, you don't have a "mechanic" for Debian, you ARE
the mechanic. YOU make it better ( or worse), so yes you ARE the
sysadmin. your other users cannot maintain the system, they cannot
update the system, they cannot destroy the system. You can update it,
maintain it, destroy it, all by yourself.


I think we simply disagree on what a sysadmin is.
So, I'll now use a definition that I does not have created, from a 
source which is often considered as quite good, wikipedia:


===
A system administrator, or sysadmin, is a person who is responsible for 
the upkeep, configuration, and reliable operation of computer systems; 
especially multi-user computers, such as servers.

===

The keyword here is "multi-user", with the constraints it apply. If you 
manage your own computer, then, ok, you are the admin of your computer. 
You are not a sysadmin.
That's my opinion, and I accept to discuss about it, but unfortunately, 
I must admit that your argument is not strong enough to convince me, and 
that I can not find an argument that I think you could hear. Except the 
authority argument I just used, which I consider as many other people as 
a weak one ( at least I was able to quote, and not simply say "I know 
someone which...". Better than usual in that kind of arguments ).



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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 11.10.2013 23:44, Brian a écrit :
On Fri 11 Oct 2013 at 23:21:07 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org 
wrote:



Le 11.10.2013 23:06, Brian a écrit :
>"are you root?"

It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be
a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the
*authorizations* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more
precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes.


If you own a system you control it and can do whatever you like with 
it.
You can give yourself whatever label you want (sysadmin, superuser, 
top

dog etc) - it matters not. How about "Debian Despot"?


Oh, of course, if you speak about giving yourself a label, then, fine. 
Take the one you want. But, it does not mean that you can claim to be a 
professional, or that you can say someone is a professional.


Take the label you want. But if you take the label of "programmer" 
because you can only write a hello world, and will own the source code. 
But then do not be surprised if other people gives you the label of 
"liar".
It is the same with sysadmin. You can own your computer, be only able 
to install softwares and use those excuses to label yourself a sysadmin. 
But then, other people are also free to give you the label of liar.


I guess you will not like my words, but if you think that people are 
free to give themselves the label they want, so you must accept that 
other are also free to give the labels they want.
Long time ago, I studied the "dark side of computer sciences", and the 
first things I have learn are that you can not claim to be a hacker, or 
elite, or... If you do so, then people will name you lamer. You are a 
hacker if other people recognize you as such.
The truth here is simple: you are not what you want, only other people 
can define who you really are.



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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Paul Cartwright]

  
  
On 10/11/2013 05:21 PM,
  berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:


  It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to
  be a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway
  have the *authorizations* to tinker it. It's what root,
  or to be more precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes.

the difference is, you don't have a "mechanic" for Debian, you ARE
the mechanic. YOU make it better ( or worse), so yes you ARE the
sysadmin. your other users cannot maintain the system, they cannot
update the system, they cannot destroy the system. You can update
it, maintain it, destroy it, all by yourself.

-- 
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
  



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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Brian]

On Fri 11 Oct 2013 at 23:21:07 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

> Le 11.10.2013 23:06, Brian a écrit :
> >"are you root?"
> 
> It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be
> a sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the
> *authorizations* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more
> precise, uid=0 means in linux OSes.

If you own a system you control it and can do whatever you like with it.
You can give yourself whatever label you want (sysadmin, superuser, top
dog etc) - it matters not. How about "Debian Despot"?


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Brian]

On Fri 11 Oct 2013 at 22:15:59 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 10:06:24PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > "are you root?" is the clue. If you are able to  be root , you are a
> > sysadmin. 
> 
> We fundamentally disagree on that point.

Without the ability to become root you are unable to administer a sytem
and unable take on the role of a sysadmin. I'm stating the obvious, but,
if you have root access - what does that make you?

> > Of course, we all know a sysadmin role can only be filled by a very
> > special person.
> 
> If you say so.  I've never figured out if there's a particular facet
> that makes a good one good.

Being able to take responsibility for one's actions would be a good
place to start.


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 11.10.2013 23:06, Brian a écrit :

"are you root?"


It does only means you own the system. Not that you can claim to be a 
sysadmin. I own my car. I am not a mechanic, but I anyway have the 
*authorizations* to tinker it. It's what root, or to be more precise, 
uid=0 means in linux OSes.



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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 10:06:24PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> "are you root?" is the clue. If you are able to  be root , you are a
> sysadmin. 

We fundamentally disagree on that point.

> Of course, we all know a sysadmin role can only be filled by a very
> special person.

If you say so.  I've never figured out if there's a particular facet
that makes a good one good.


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Brian]

On Fri 11 Oct 2013 at 13:24:28 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> Getting a printer to work in Linux or a weekly rsync to a USB HDD
> do not make you a sysadmin any more than managing your current
> (checking in en_US afaik) makes you an accountant.

Eh?

A parent who spends many hours attending to her child's needs when she
is ill is not a nurse.

A person who replaces a blown fuse in a plug to get the TV working again
is not an electrician.

Guiding a person through the intricacies of a foreign language does not
make you a linguist.

Someone who expresses a view on a current situation in the news is not a
politician.

Cooking a splendid meal for four doesn't make you a chef.

Are there any more lables we can attach to people?

In the Debian context, anyone using apt-get is a sysadmin, A mere user
gets:

   brian@desktop:~$ apt-get update
   E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/apt/lists/lock - open (13:
   Permission denied)
   E: Unable to lock directory /var/lib/apt/lists/
   E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (13: Permission
   denied)
   E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you
   root?

"are you root?" is the clue. If you are able to  be root , you are a
sysadmin.  Maybe not a very good one, but, if you want the
responsibility, it is yours; all of it - not just the little bit the OP
may have implied by his throwaway remark.

Of course, we all know a sysadmin role can only be filled by a very
special person.


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Re: [Solved] Re: TLS negotiation in mutt

[Veljko]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 04:29:37PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> > Do you know what is the GNUTLS default value?
> 
> http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2013-September/017323.html

Thanks again! 

Regards,
Veljko 


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Re: Problems preseeding Wheezy (7.1)

[Richard Owlett]

Tom H wrote:

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 11:03 AM, Richard Owlett  wrote:


1. Being on dialup, I use a purchased copy of the 10 DVD set for
installation.
My preseed.cfg is on a USB stick. I use the "Automated install" option.
Pressing  allows me to specify the file location. Of course it comes to
a halt saying the configuration file could not be found. Switching screens
with ALT-F2 allows mounting the USB stick.  I think there should be a
"better way". But I was told about a year ago "that's how it's done". Has
anything changed?

2. I base my preseed.cfg on the example at
http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/example-preseed.txt . Near the end of
the install process I'm asked to specify a keyboard layout though one was
specified near the beginning of the file.


Pass "DEBCONF_DEBUG=5" to the commandline and, when the installation
stops, switch to VT4 to see which preseed value is blocking the
progress



The relavant line appears to be
Oct 11 19:15:56 debconf: --> INPUT critical 
keyboard-configuration/layout




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Re: [Solved] Re: TLS negotiation in mutt

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013, Veljko wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 03:39:47PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2013, Veljko wrote:
> > > "gnutls handshake: the diffie-helman prime sent by the server is not
> > > acceptable (not long enough)
> > 
> > Check option ssl_min_dh_prime_bits for the config file .muttrc.  It is
> > listed in the muttrc(5) manpage.  It might help you.
> 
> It sure did. I set ssl_min_dh_prime_bits variable to 128 and it worked.
> Thanks Hanrique!
> 
> Do you know what is the GNUTLS default value?

http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2013-September/017323.html

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:44:11 +0200, Tom H  wrote:

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Ralf Mardorf
 wrote:



Have you considered NAS?


No way!


What's wrong with NAS to elicit such a rejection?


Money.


GVFS is absolutely optional software.


You only ever consider things from your limited use-case


No.


Simply because you mount external drives manually
or via udev-without-gvfs, doesn't mean that this is the best way for
the majority.


It's better to install software that damages the drives instead?
Why not making it optional, as it's done for Xfce's Thunar?


You've also complained in this thread and previously about compliance
with green drives. I could've replied: "I only ever connect an
external drive to my computer long enough to copy in and/or copy out
files. So the Brussels bureaucrats who came up with this standard have
yet again mis-spent my tax GBP by wasting their time on researching,
writing, publishing, and enforcing this nonsense - and probably making
drives more expensive in order to comply with this standard!"


I'm against this EU Regulation too (I guess you only think about your  
limited use-case;) but this has nothing to do with the fact that GVFS is  
crappy software, so I'm also against GVFS waking up a drive without a  
valid reason. Being against the EU Regulation doesn't mean that I'm  
against sleeping external drives.



Furthermore, have you filed a bug against gvfs for it to be made
compatible with EU green drives? Has someone else? If the developers
aren't aware of this problem (they might use external drives the way
that I do, do example!), how can they improve their software?


Not only that, we, another one and I planned to fix it, but that's another  
story and I'm sad to talk about it.



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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[berenger . morel]

Le 11.10.2013 20:44, Tom H a écrit :

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Ralf Mardorf
 wrote:



Have you considered NAS?


No way!


What's wrong with NAS to elicit such a rejection?



GVFS is absolutely optional software.


You only ever consider things from your limited use-case but upstream
developers and distribution maintainers have to take into account the
majority of users.


The majority of users do not have NAS :)
Especially to use them as portable hardware, I think.


You've also complained in this thread and previously about compliance
with green drives. I could've replied: "I only ever connect an
external drive to my computer long enough to copy in and/or copy out
files.


Most of the people I know which uses external drives, and I speak here 
about drives, no small data containers, is to use, for example, music, 
films, and such stored on that harddrive.



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Re: apt-get vs. aptitude

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Dmitrii Kashin  wrote:
> Tom H  writes:
>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Dmitrii Kashin  wrote:
>>> Florian Lindner  writes:

 What is the prefered tool for installing on the CLI? apt-get or
 aptitude? Last time I read about it, it was aptitude, due to better
 dependency checking. What is the current state? apt-get or aptitude?
 Does it matter? What about using both?
>>>
>>> I should notice that you cannot compare apt-get and aptitude. But you
>>> can do it for aptitude and APT utilities.
>>>
>>> I find aptitude somtimes inadequate, and therefore dangerous in some
>>> cases. I met situations when aptitude completly broke functioning of
>>> APT. APT utilities in their turn are simpler, and they are more
>>> preferred to manage packages.
>>>
>>> But although aptitude can break APT, APT could not break aptitude's
>>> working, so you always can use it in order to use its searching
>>> abilities. I do so.
>>
>> Have you filed a bug report about aptitude breaking apt (whatever that
>> means!) or is this just FUD?
>
> No, I have not. Because it is normal aptitude's behaviour.
> I have just written about this case in debian-russian list, but can not
> find now the original text, so I am writing new one.
>
> It was a cognitive case. I had set priorities for dbus to negative ones
> using pinning. Then I tried to install some package which needed dbus
> with apt-get and aptitude; and then I compared behavior of theese
> utilities.
>
> As it was impossible to resolve dependencies for this package due to
> pinning, apt-get printed error message and shut down. And in my opinion
> it was a right decision.
>
> But aptitude in its turn did not bahave the same way. What did it do?
> It suggested to me several "solutions". They were:
>
> 1) Install this package ignoring dependency.
>
> As it was a hard dependency, program could not work without it. And if
> you choose this variant, unresolved dependencies appears in the system,
> so you would not be able to use apt-get to manage packages anymore.
>
> And it is the case you asked about.
>
> 2) Install dbus, forgot about pinning.
>
> This one just shocked me.
>
> 3) ...
>
> There was a lot of fun "solutions" of the problem. But as I said, I can
> not find original post, and can not remember more examples.
>
> It's enough I think.

You start out by replying that this isn't a bug but normal for aptitude!

And I agree.

Aptitude gives you the option to to install a piece of software
without a hard dependency (and then dealing with the consequences) or
of overriding a previous choice of software installation.

It gives you a choice! It doesn't install packages that breaks your
installation or conflicts with your requirements without your consent!

Not only is aptitude not broken but it doesn't break apt since you can
still use apt-get/aptitude to install other packages.


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Re: TLS negotiation in mutt

[Veljko]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 08:32:37PM +0200, Jochen Spieker wrote:
> Can you connect using openssl?
> 
> http://www.madboa.com/geek/openssl/#cs-smtp
> 
> J.

It seams that I can:

Acceptable client certificate CA names
/C=US/O=GeoTrust, Inc./CN=RapidSSL CA
---
SSL handshake has read 3507 bytes and written 501 bytes
---
New, TLSv1/SSLv3, Cipher is DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA
Server public key is 2048 bit
Secure Renegotiation IS supported
Compression: NONE
Expansion: NONE
SSL-Session:
Protocol  : TLSv1
Cipher: DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA


Regards,
Veljko


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[Solved] Re: TLS negotiation in mutt

[Veljko]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 03:39:47PM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013, Veljko wrote:
> > "gnutls handshake: the diffie-helman prime sent by the server is not
> > acceptable (not long enough)
> 
> Check option ssl_min_dh_prime_bits for the config file .muttrc.  It is
> listed in the muttrc(5) manpage.  It might help you.

It sure did. I set ssl_min_dh_prime_bits variable to 128 and it worked.
Thanks Hanrique!

Do you know what is the GNUTLS default value?

Regards,
Veljko


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:42:44 +0200, Tom H  wrote:

MATE can be installed alongside other DEs on Fedora so I'm not at all
convinced by this MATE-conflicts-with-"common-software" meme!
Soneone said upthread that MATE uses GTK2. AFAIK it's being
transitioned to GTK3 so it'll then be less of a burden to package it
for Debian.


Correct, Mate does a transition to GTK3, but as explained before, it still  
would be a PITA to make packages for official repositories, since you need  
to prevent against such a conflict:


On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:43:43 +0200, Alex Moonshine   
wrote:

Sorry, but why would one need mate-file-archiver (Engrampa) and
file-roller on the same machine? The former is a fork of the latter
(and to all practical means just the same package under different
name). Same goes for nautilus/caja, gedit/pluma, etc.
I think that either you use MATE DE and Engrampa replaces file-roller
for you, or, if you want to install MATE on a system that already has
some other DE with file-roller installed, that you want to keep, you
install mate-base package, which (I believe) includes none of extra
applications (and you can go on using file-roller under MATE).


Somebody might want to test GNOME 3 and Mate on the same install. There  
are workarounds. I e.g. didn't install mate-file-archiver and add a link  
/usr/bin/matedialog -> zenity.


On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:52:17 +0200, Mark Allums  wrote:

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 11:34 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> The dialogs from Gnome 3 (zenity) serves, so mate-dialogs-gnome isn't
> needed if zenity is installed (and mate-dialogs-gnome can serve in
> place for zenity as well).

Not really, you at least need to manually add a link, regarding to the
different program names.


I never did, and never had to.  It works fine.


Just because you're using software that doesn't use this software as a  
dependency.



[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ ls -l /usr/bin/matedialog
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 6 Aug 18 18:06 /usr/bin/matedialog -> zenity

;)

Sure, if mate-file-archiver is installed, you might not need
file-roller, but you perhaps want to be able to install a DE by it's
meta-packages, but this doesn't work, if one of the DEs is Mate, because
those packages cause conflicts.



Again, never a problem for me, since v. 1.2.

I don't have any package named mate-file-archiver installed or available  
to install.  There's engrampa, which does not conflict at all with  
file-roller.


Upstream:

https://github.com/mate-desktop/debian-packages
  -->  
https://github.com/mate-desktop/debian-packages/tree/master/mate-file-archiver


https://github.com/mate-desktop/archlinux-packages
  -->  
https://github.com/mate-desktop/archlinux-packages/tree/master/mate-file-archiver



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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Ralf Mardorf
 wrote:


>> Have you considered NAS?
>
> No way!

What's wrong with NAS to elicit such a rejection?


> GVFS is absolutely optional software.

You only ever consider things from your limited use-case but upstream
developers and distribution maintainers have to take into account the
majority of users. Simply because you mount external drives manually
or via udev-without-gvfs, doesn't mean that this is the best way for
the majority.

So the GNOME developers must have decided to develop gvfs and make it
a hard dependency of GNOME for a reason other than "we've got time on
our hands and computers have alot of spare processor power, RAM, and
disk space, so let's add another piece of software that runs in the
background."

You've also complained in this thread and previously about compliance
with green drives. I could've replied: "I only ever connect an
external drive to my computer long enough to copy in and/or copy out
files. So the Brussels bureaucrats who came up with this standard have
yet again mis-spent my tax GBP by wasting their time on researching,
writing, publishing, and enforcing this nonsense - and probably making
drives more expensive in order to comply with this standard!" Would it
make any sense for me to have such a rant?

Furthermore, have you filed a bug against gvfs for it to be made
compatible with EU green drives? Has someone else? If the developers
aren't aware of this problem (they might use external drives the way
that I do, do example!), how can they improve their software?


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Re: TLS negotiation in mutt

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013, Veljko wrote:
> "gnutls handshake: the diffie-helman prime sent by the server is not
> acceptable (not long enough)

Check option ssl_min_dh_prime_bits for the config file .muttrc.  It is
listed in the muttrc(5) manpage.  It might help you.

> Does anyone have some idea why this is happening and how can I fix this so I
> can send emails?

Well, the correct fix is to get that server to switch to a secure TLS
certificate (i.e. they'll need a new one with a much larger key size).

Anyway, look at this:
http://gnutls.org/manual/html_node/Selecting-cryptographic-key-sizes.html

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: TLS negotiation in mutt

[Jochen Spieker]

Veljko:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I'm using mutt with all my accounts and most of them work fine. My work email
> account is hosted on exchange server and I'm using mutt's built in SMTP
> functionality. I have set ssl_starttls=yes and when I'm trying to send email
> I'm getting error:
> 
> "gnutls handshake: the diffie-helman prime sent by the server is not
> acceptable (not long enough)
> 
> Could not negotiate TLS connection"

Can you connect using openssl?

http://www.madboa.com/geek/openssl/#cs-smtp

J.
-- 
People talking a foreign language are romantic and mysterious.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Jochen Spieker]

Mark Allums:
> 
> Upthread, another poster commented that it wouldn't ever be accepted
> into Debian.  This may be true, but not for the reasons given.  The
> MATE dev team are eliminating code duplication.  They have gotten rid
> of Bonobo.  They are porting it to GTK 3.  The dev tools for it are
> starting to enter Experimental.  

Great to hear. My information might be out of date.

J.
-- 
My memories gild my life with rare transcendance.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[berenger . morel]

Le 11.10.2013 19:43, Alex Moonshine a écrit :

> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:50:01 +0200
> > Ralf Mardorf  wrote:
I'm speaking about upstream and here is one conflict:

[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ sudo pacman -S mate-file-archiver
resolving dependencies...
looking for inter-conflicts...
:: mate-file-archiver and file-roller are in conflict. Remove
file-roller? [y/N]



Sorry, but why would one need mate-file-archiver (Engrampa) and
file-roller on the same machine? The former is a fork of the latter
(and to all practical means just the same package under different
name). Same goes for nautilus/caja, gedit/pluma, etc.
I think that either you use MATE DE and Engrampa replaces file-roller
for you, or, if you want to install MATE on a system that already has
some other DE with file-roller installed, that you want to keep, you
install mate-base package, which (I believe) includes none of extra
applications (and you can go on using file-roller under MATE).


Or maybe they should all depend on a meta package named, say, 
x-archive-manager? That would indirectly fix the problem, and give users 
a choice :)


Otherwise, about reasons... some people uses more than 1 DE. I guess we 
could use the same reason, here.



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TLS negotiation in mutt

[Veljko]

Hello,

I'm using mutt with all my accounts and most of them work fine. My work email
account is hosted on exchange server and I'm using mutt's built in SMTP
functionality. I have set ssl_starttls=yes and when I'm trying to send email
I'm getting error:

"gnutls handshake: the diffie-helman prime sent by the server is not
acceptable (not long enough)

Could not negotiate TLS connection"

I tried to google something, but failed to find usable solution. 

Does anyone have some idea why this is happening and how can I fix this so I
can send emails?

Regards,
Veljko


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[berenger . morel]

Le 11.10.2013 19:42, Tom H a écrit :

AIUI, MATE is a redo of GNOME 2 using GTK2 and Cinnamon a redo of
GNOME 2 using GTK3. Will they merge at some point? Or have their
interpretation and evolution of the GNOME 2 UI diverged enough for
them to keep on co-existing?


AFAIK, they are fork of different softwares: gnome 2 for one, gnome 3 
for the other. Plus, I do not think there is any sign of will to merge.

So, I doubt they'll do, because of will and or technical problems.

But, to be honest, I do not know, I do not use any DE anymore, and if 
someday I would have to advice the use of DE to someone, that would be 
XFCE or LXDE. I have used them, and they offer enough features in my 
opinion. Plus, they are lightweight, their age can be used as a proof 
that they'll continue on their original line. Exactly what gnome seems 
to not have made ;) so when I consider it's forks... 2 forks, for 1 
reason, I allow me to smile and have hard doubts about their future.
And well, I do not mind at all, I'm no longer a DE user and probably 
will never become one anew. Except if someone make a DE built around 
TWM, very lightweight softwares, and no feature duplication ( it means: 
no other tool than the window manager would manage windows. We are far 
from that, even in terminals. )


My 2 cents.


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RE: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Mark Allums]

> On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 11:34 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> > The dialogs from Gnome 3 (zenity) serves, so mate-dialogs-gnome isn't
> > needed if zenity is installed (and mate-dialogs-gnome can serve in
> > place for zenity as well).
> 
> Not really, you at least need to manually add a link, regarding to the
> different program names.

I never did, and never had to.  It works fine.


> 
> [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ ls -l /usr/bin/matedialog
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 6 Aug 18 18:06 /usr/bin/matedialog -> zenity
> 
> ;)
> 
> Sure, if mate-file-archiver is installed, you might not need
> file-roller, but you perhaps want to be able to install a DE by it's
> meta-packages, but this doesn't work, if one of the DEs is Mate, because
> those packages cause conflicts.


Again, never a problem for me, since v. 1.2.  

I don't have any package named mate-file-archiver installed or available to 
install.  There's engrampa, which does not conflict at all with file-roller.



Mark



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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Alex Moonshine]

> > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:50:01 +0200
> > > Ralf Mardorf  wrote:
> I'm speaking about upstream and here is one conflict:
> 
> [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ sudo pacman -S mate-file-archiver
> resolving dependencies...
> looking for inter-conflicts...
> :: mate-file-archiver and file-roller are in conflict. Remove
> file-roller? [y/N]
> 

Sorry, but why would one need mate-file-archiver (Engrampa) and
file-roller on the same machine? The former is a fork of the latter
(and to all practical means just the same package under different
name). Same goes for nautilus/caja, gedit/pluma, etc.
I think that either you use MATE DE and Engrampa replaces file-roller
for you, or, if you want to install MATE on a system that already has
some other DE with file-roller installed, that you want to keep, you
install mate-base package, which (I believe) includes none of extra
applications (and you can go on using file-roller under MATE). 


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Consistent mouse and scrollbar behavior in X?

[Brian Flaherty]

Hello,
Clicking on scrollbars does different things with different 
applications. In Emacs, the following used to be standard:

- left click: one screenful down
- right click: one screenful up
- middle click: jump to where you clicked

In emacs now (emacs-24 with gtk+), the mouse scrolling is quite poor. 
Left click jumps the scrollbar to the place you clicked, but the buffer 
text doesn't change. In evince, left and right click do exactly the same 
thing, jump to the point where you clicked. However, in xpdf, left click 
takes you down (or up) one screenful and middle click jumps to the point.


I did some web searching to try to fix this. I found how to move my 
scrollbar in emacs back over to the left, instead of on the right 
(set-scroll-bar-mode 'left), but I haven't found a way to get my old 
mouse behavior back in emacs, much less make it standard across all X 
programs. Is this possible? The fact that xpdf and evince behave so 
differently suggests one uniform system may be difficult to achieve.


BTW, I'm using the i3 window manager on Debian unstable. Thanks for any 
thoughts or suggestions.



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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Ralf Mardorf
 wrote:
> On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 16:47 +0300, Alex Moonshine wrote:
>>
>> I'm using MATE right now and it's good, but from the perspective
>> viewpoint, I'd stick with XFCE.
>
> MATE from upstream does conflict with other software. This isn't good,
> it's the most worse I can imagine and likely the reason that distros
> aren't interested to add it to official repositories. MATE is the only
> software I know available for Linux, that does conflict with common
> software.

MATE can be installed alongside other DEs on Fedora so I'm not at all
convinced by this MATE-conflicts-with-"common-software" meme!

Soneone said upthread that MATE uses GTK2. AFAIK it's being
transitioned to GTK3 so it'll then be less of a burden to package it
for Debian.

[WARNING: The following is not based on having used either so my
unfamiliarity with their respective UIs might be showing!]

AIUI, MATE is a redo of GNOME 2 using GTK2 and Cinnamon a redo of
GNOME 2 using GTK3. Will they merge at some point? Or have their
interpretation and evolution of the GNOME 2 UI diverged enough for
them to keep on co-existing?


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Frank McCormick]

On 11/10/13 12:49 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 12:22 -0400, Frank McCormick wrote:

I am running Mate on Jessie...and have had no problems. However
judging by appearances only, Cinnamon is slicker-looking ( I run
Cinnamon and Mate on Fedora 19).


Kernel version? Graphics and it's driver?


On Debian 3.10-2.686-pae with the basic Intel driver.
My machine is a dual-core 2.3 mhz and Mate runs fine. I have never
attempted a Cinnamon install on Debian.

On Fedora  3.11.4-201.fc19.i686 on the same machine
Cinnamon is fast and responsive even with Compiz.





Keep in mind that we all have
different needs. Regarding to resources and performance issues Cinnamon
is unusable on my machine, while Mate theoretically could be usable.






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Re: Problems preseeding Wheezy (7.1)

[Tom H]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 11:03 AM, Richard Owlett  wrote:
>
> 1. Being on dialup, I use a purchased copy of the 10 DVD set for
> installation.
> My preseed.cfg is on a USB stick. I use the "Automated install" option.
> Pressing  allows me to specify the file location. Of course it comes to
> a halt saying the configuration file could not be found. Switching screens
> with ALT-F2 allows mounting the USB stick.  I think there should be a
> "better way". But I was told about a year ago "that's how it's done". Has
> anything changed?
>
> 2. I base my preseed.cfg on the example at
> http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/example-preseed.txt . Near the end of
> the install process I'm asked to specify a keyboard layout though one was
> specified near the beginning of the file.

Pass "DEBCONF_DEBUG=5" to the commandline and, when the installation
stops, switch to VT4 to see which preseed value is blocking the
progress


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 11:34 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> The dialogs from Gnome 3 (zenity) serves, so mate-dialogs-gnome isn't
> needed if zenity is installed (and mate-dialogs-gnome can serve in
> place for zenity as well).

Not really, you at least need to manually add a link, regarding to the
different program names.

[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ ls -l /usr/bin/matedialog
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 6 Aug 18 18:06 /usr/bin/matedialog -> zenity

;)

Sure, if mate-file-archiver is installed, you might not need
file-roller, but you perhaps want to be able to install a DE by it's
meta-packages, but this doesn't work, if one of the DEs is Mate, because
those packages cause conflicts.


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Re: apt-get vs. aptitude

[Dmitrii Kashin]

Tom H  writes:

> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Dmitrii Kashin  wrote:
>> Florian Lindner  writes:
>>>
>>> What is the prefered tool for installing on the CLI? apt-get or
>>> aptitude? Last time I read about it, it was aptitude, due to better
>>> dependency checking. What is the current state? apt-get or aptitude?
>>> Does it matter? What about using both?
>>
>> I should notice that you cannot compare apt-get and aptitude. But you
>> can do it for aptitude and APT utilities.
>>
>> I find aptitude somtimes inadequate, and therefore dangerous in some
>> cases. I met situations when aptitude completly broke functioning of
>> APT. APT utilities in their turn are simpler, and they are more
>> preferred to manage packages.
>>
>> But although aptitude can break APT, APT could not break aptitude's
>> working, so you always can use it in order to use its searching
>> abilities. I do so.
>
> Have you filed a bug report about aptitude breaking apt (whatever that
> means!) or is this just FUD?

No, I have not. Because it is normal aptitude's behaviour.
I have just written about this case in debian-russian list, but can not
find now the original text, so I am writing new one.

It was a cognitive case. I had set priorities for dbus to negative ones
using pinning. Then I tried to install some package which needed dbus
with apt-get and aptitude; and then I compared behavior of theese
utilities.

As it was impossible to resolve dependencies for this package due to
pinning, apt-get printed error message and shut down. And in my opinion
it was a right decision.

But aptitude in its turn did not bahave the same way. What did it do?
It suggested to me several "solutions". They were:

1) Install this package ignoring dependency.

As it was a hard dependency, program could not work without it. And if
you choose this variant, unresolved dependencies appears in the system,
so you would not be able to use apt-get to manage packages anymore.

And it is the case you asked about.

2) Install dbus, forgot about pinning.

This one just shocked me.

3) ...

There was a lot of fun "solutions" of the problem. But as I said, I can
not find original post, and can not remember more examples. 

It's enough I think.


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 12:22 -0400, Frank McCormick wrote:
> I am running Mate on Jessie...and have had no problems. However 
> judging by appearances only, Cinnamon is slicker-looking ( I run 
> Cinnamon and Mate on Fedora 19).

Kernel version? Graphics and it's driver? Keep in mind that we all have
different needs. Regarding to resources and performance issues Cinnamon
is unusable on my machine, while Mate theoretically could be usable.



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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 11:22 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> > On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 10:24 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> > > As far as gvfs goes, it's harmless.  Why be upset over it
> > > installation?
> > 
> > External hard disc drives that fulfill the EU Regulation, that they have
> > to sleep after a while, will be waked up by GVFS again and again. This
> > will kill those "green" drives. Software like GVFS that will damage
> > hardware is a no-go. To get rid of it only a dummy package is needed, or
> > maintainers who ignore insane upstream dependencies ;).
> 
> I think that this is in the pipeline to address, but the problem is in
> Windows and OS X as well. A lot of it is name-calling and
> finger-pointing, and gvfs is no different from other devs.I know
> that on a Mac, if you use Apple's own external drive, there is no
> problem.  I don't suppose that is really relevant.  In the US, there
> was a program you could download from WD and I think maybe something
> similar from Seagate, that would disable the sleep thing.  The drive
> would always be spinning, but it didn't cause the heads to keep
> parking and unparking.  I don't know if this is still available or
> not, but I suspect that it isn't available in the EU.  Windows will
> also sleep the WiFi adapter if you don't disable sleep, and then the
> USB won't reconnect after wakeup.  It takes a physical unplug/replug
> to reset the thing.  It is extremely bothersome.  It causes problems
> on reboot, too.

Fortunately it's easy to test an USB drive on other machines. Windows XP
doesn't wake up the drive, IOW Windows doesn't damage the drive, but
even if Windows would damage the drive, this wouldn't be an excuse that
GVFS does damage green drives. I'm using Linux and not Windows.

Disabling is 1. impossible for many drives with an USB controller, when
you can't open the case and 2. even if it should work, it's unwanted by
some users, e.g. by me and it's against EU law.

> Have you considered NAS?

No way! I simply don't install GVFS. I don't understand why this is a
hard dependency. Even if it shouldn't kill external HDDs, perhaps some
people don't want to mount using a file manager etc., IOW GVFS is
absolutely optional software.

Regards,
Ralf


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RE: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Mark Allums]

> >> MATE from upstream does conflict with other software. This isn't good,
> >> it's the most worse I can imagine and likely the reason that distros
> >> aren't interested to add it to official repositories. MATE is the only
> >> software I know available for Linux, that does conflict with common
> >> software.
> > I use MATE and I have not experience any conflicts. Do you have any
> > examples of programs that don't work when MATE is installed?
> > I am on Sid, if that helps.
> >
> There's an entire subculture on Debian dedicated to blind hatred of MATE
> for no reason. "Conflicts" are their chief complaint yet I've never once
> seen MATE bashers actually demonstrate any real, reproducible conflict.
> I've used it on Stable, Testing, and Unstable all with zero conflicts
> whatsoever.

There were naming conflicts early on with Gnome 3.  Those are gone.  There are 
two packages that still conflict: mate-desktop-gnome and mate-dialogs-gnome.  

The dialogs from Gnome 3 (zenity) serves, so mate-dialogs-gnome isn't needed if 
zenity is installed (and mate-dialogs-gnome can serve in place for zenity as 
well).

mate-desktop-gnome conflicts with gnome-desktop-data.  They did a rename trick 
with this, and another package, mate-desktop, serves the same purpose, I 
believe, and it doesn't conflict. 

I think.  

Mark

   


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 11:05 -0500, Conrad Nelson wrote:
> On 10/11/2013 09:57 AM, Jack Malmostoso wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:50:01 +0200
> > Ralf Mardorf  wrote:
> >
> >> MATE from upstream does conflict with other software. This isn't good,
> >> it's the most worse I can imagine and likely the reason that distros
> >> aren't interested to add it to official repositories. MATE is the only
> >> software I know available for Linux, that does conflict with common
> >> software.
> > I use MATE and I have not experience any conflicts. Do you have any
> > examples of programs that don't work when MATE is installed?
> > I am on Sid, if that helps.
> >
> There's an entire subculture on Debian dedicated to blind hatred of MATE 
> for no reason.

I don't know this subculture. At least I'm not one of this subculture.

>  "Conflicts" are their chief complaint yet I've never once 
> seen MATE bashers actually demonstrate any real, reproducible conflict. 
> I've used it on Stable, Testing, and Unstable all with zero conflicts 
> whatsoever.

I'm speaking about upstream and here is one conflict:

[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ sudo pacman -S mate-file-archiver
resolving dependencies...
looking for inter-conflicts...
:: mate-file-archiver and file-roller are in conflict. Remove
file-roller? [y/N]

There are several other conflicts and no, I don't repeat myself again
and again and give more examples.

I had a discussion about GVFS with Mate folks. They claimed it is
needed, OTOH they claimed that it's not a hard dependency for the Mate's
Debian repo, although it supposedly is needed ;).

If you want to maintain official packages for a distro that should be
stable, then contradictory statements from upstream are a no-go and
conflicts as the one between mate-file-archiver and file-roller are a
no-go².

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Frank McCormick]

On 11/10/13 12:05 PM, Conrad Nelson wrote:

On 10/11/2013 09:57 AM, Jack Malmostoso wrote:

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:50:01 +0200
Ralf Mardorf  wrote:


MATE from upstream does conflict with other software. This isn't good,
it's the most worse I can imagine and likely the reason that distros
aren't interested to add it to official repositories. MATE is the only
software I know available for Linux, that does conflict with common
software.

I use MATE and I have not experience any conflicts. Do you have any
examples of programs that don't work when MATE is installed?
I am on Sid, if that helps.


There's an entire subculture on Debian dedicated to blind hatred of MATE
for no reason. "Conflicts" are their chief complaint yet I've never once
seen MATE bashers actually demonstrate any real, reproducible conflict.
I've used it on Stable, Testing, and Unstable all with zero conflicts
whatsoever.





   I am running Mate on Jessie...and have had no problems. However 
judging by appearances only, Cinnamon is slicker-looking ( I run 
Cinnamon and Mate on Fedora 19).



Cheers


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RE: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Mark Allums]

> On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 10:24 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> > As far as gvfs goes, it's harmless.  Why be upset over it
> > installation?
> 
> External hard disc drives that fulfill the EU Regulation, that they have
> to sleep after a while, will be waked up by GVFS again and again. This
> will kill those "green" drives. Software like GVFS that will damage
> hardware is a no-go. To get rid of it only a dummy package is needed, or
> maintainers who ignore insane upstream dependencies ;).

I think that this is in the pipeline to address, but the problem is in Windows 
and OS X as well. A lot of it is name-calling and finger-pointing, and gvfs is 
no different from other devs.I know that on a Mac, if you use Apple's own 
external drive, there is no problem.  I don't suppose that is really relevant.  
In the US, there was a program you could download from WD and I think maybe 
something similar from Seagate, that would disable the sleep thing.  The drive 
would always be spinning, but it didn't cause the heads to keep parking and 
unparking.  I don't know if this is still available or not, but I suspect that 
it isn't available in the EU.  Windows will also sleep the WiFi adapter if you 
don't disable sleep, and then the USB won't reconnect after wakeup.  It takes a 
physical unplug/replug to reset the thing.  It is extremely bothersome.  It 
causes problems on reboot, too. 

Have you considered NAS?  

> Regarding to the conflicts caused by Mate, how e.g. is the conflict
> between mate-file-archiver and file-roller solved for Debian?

To be honest, I don't know.  There is no package named mate-file-roller 
installed on my machine.  I'm running the Jessie version of MATE 1.6.  

Mark




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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Conrad Nelson]

On 10/11/2013 09:57 AM, Jack Malmostoso wrote:

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:50:01 +0200
Ralf Mardorf  wrote:


MATE from upstream does conflict with other software. This isn't good,
it's the most worse I can imagine and likely the reason that distros
aren't interested to add it to official repositories. MATE is the only
software I know available for Linux, that does conflict with common
software.

I use MATE and I have not experience any conflicts. Do you have any
examples of programs that don't work when MATE is installed?
I am on Sid, if that helps.

There's an entire subculture on Debian dedicated to blind hatred of MATE 
for no reason. "Conflicts" are their chief complaint yet I've never once 
seen MATE bashers actually demonstrate any real, reproducible conflict. 
I've used it on Stable, Testing, and Unstable all with zero conflicts 
whatsoever.



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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Jack Malmostoso]

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:50:01 +0200
Ralf Mardorf  wrote:

> MATE from upstream does conflict with other software. This isn't good,
> it's the most worse I can imagine and likely the reason that distros
> aren't interested to add it to official repositories. MATE is the only
> software I know available for Linux, that does conflict with common
> software.

I use MATE and I have not experience any conflicts. Do you have any
examples of programs that don't work when MATE is installed?
I am on Sid, if that helps.

-- 
I do not know myself and God forbid that I should.
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


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Re: apt-pinning, strange behavior

[Dmitrii Kashin]

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org writes:

> Le 10.10.2013 23:06, Dmitrii Kashin a écrit :
>> berenger.mo...@neutralite.org writes:
>>
>>> In the same priority range, the package which will be installed is
>>> the one with the highest priority, so it is fine to have one set of
>>> package with 500 ( or I could take 600 or any other value ) for low
>>> priority, and the other at 900 ( or 800 or... ), so that the version
>>> with 900 will be installed against the lower one, even if the lower
>>> one is more recent.
>>
>> Oh... Truely? I thought differently and was sure I am right.
>
> Maybe you are right, but in that case, how would you explain the
> behavior I had if a package of a priority of 500 is considered to have
> the same priority as a package with 900 ? ;)

My opinion was that priorities are used to determine which package of
equal versions should be installed. And there is not difference if
packages have different versions: only one with a higher version will be
installed. Exception is different priority range for theese packages.

But truely, in this case why do we have such a wide range of priorities?
So I'm inclined to agree with you.

>> I just skimmed again through apt_preferences man page, but did not
>> find such examples or explanations. Where's it documented?
>
> I must admit, that I only base my words on old readings and
> experimentations. It also seems logic: what would be the interest to
> have so wide ranges of numbers oterwise?

Yes-yes-yes. This thought visited my mind too.

> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I have seen those days tends to prove that I
> am not.

I think you are right too, but it will be well to find where this
behavior is correctly described. Unfortunately I have not seen good
preferences documentation at the current time.


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 10:24 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> As far as gvfs goes, it's harmless.  Why be upset over it
> installation?

External hard disc drives that fulfill the EU Regulation, that they have
to sleep after a while, will be waked up by GVFS again and again. This
will kill those "green" drives. Software like GVFS that will damage
hardware is a no-go. To get rid of it only a dummy package is needed, or
maintainers who ignore insane upstream dependencies ;). 

Regarding to the conflicts caused by Mate, how e.g. is the conflict
between mate-file-archiver and file-roller solved for Debian?


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Alex Moonshine]

 Off-topic

On 11.10.2013 17:41, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

MATE from upstream does conflict with other software. This isn't good,
it's the most worse I can imagine and likely the reason that distros
aren't interested to add it to official repositories. MATE is the only
software I know available for Linux, that does conflict with common
software.

 Could you give a few examples? I installed Wheezy without DE and then MATE
from "deb http://repo.mate-desktop.org/debian wheezy main"

No problems/conflicts so far (well, none due to MATE).

The DE that is the closest to GNOME 2, regarding to all aspects,
work-flow, "interaction" with other software, stability, needed
resources, IMO is Xfce 4


I just can't get over the fact that I can't drag things from applications
menu to quick launch panel. It's painful :(

RE: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Mark Allums]

> MATE from upstream does conflict with other software. This isn't good,
> it's the most worse I can imagine and likely the reason that distros
> aren't interested to add it to official repositories. MATE is the only
> software I know available for Linux, that does conflict with common
> software.


I have not found this to be true.  MATE is my default desktop, and it's 
wonderful.

It's not Gnome 2 yet, but it's making good progress.  (Someone should mention 
at this point that it's a fork of Gnome 2.)

The conflicts found in early versions of it are pretty much gone, and it can 
coexist fully with Gnome 3 on the same system. 

It's still young, but it's quite stable.

Upthread, another poster commented that it wouldn't ever be accepted into 
Debian.  This may be true, but not for the reasons given.  The MATE dev team 
are eliminating code duplication.  They have gotten rid of Bonobo.  They are 
porting it to GTK 3.  The dev tools for it are starting to enter Experimental.  

Those wanting to give it a try may install it easily.  They have a repository 
set up, so all you have to do is add it to sources.list and use apt-get install 
to let the package manager handle it.  Uninstalling it is as easy as removing 
the metapackages and letting apt uninstall it.  

http://mate-desktop.org/
http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/download

As far as gvfs goes, it's harmless.  Why be upset over it installation?  
PulseAudio, I understand.  It isn't greatly to be desired, but it has never 
actually screwed anything up for me.  It is just extraneous, taking up space 
and generally being a minor nuisance.

Mark



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Re: I have an Openoffice question for small business.

[Paul van der Vlis]

Op 11-10-13 16:49, Ezequiel schreef:
> I have done a list off complains in my Oo users. I had worked out almost
> all of them, but there is a really bad issue about file load speed.
> 
> The accountant department have a set of (very) large files which are
> used to calculate salaries to all employees. I already told them that is
> suboptimal in the very best case and dangerous in the worst scenario. In
> Oo any of that set of files loads in 15 sec in average. In Lo it loads
> in about one minute.

Did you try to save it from LO (use another name), and then load it
again? Maybe there's conversion needed from an older format.
Which version of OOo and LO?
How big is the file?
Was LO allready running while opening the file?
Maybe some kind of calculation was started automatically?
Are small files no problem?

> I guess they are right about such load time performance.

Why should it load so much slower?

> I suppose my best shot is to wait until Lo improves.

LO is exactly the same code as OOo, with some improvements.

> In the meantime I talk to them. Sometime we, IT guys, have to do some
> psychoanalyst work. Jah.

True.

> When I have news... I'll let you know.

With regards,
Paul van der Vlis.

BTW I did not read the discussion.


> Thanks for all your suggestions and advices
> 
> Zeke
> 
> PD: again. Forgive my English. I like to see my language well used, so I
> understand if you fell I am destroying English with an axe :P
> 
> 
> 2013/10/10 Paul van der Vlis  >
> 
> Hi Ezequiel,
> 
> Op 08-10-13 14:10, Ezequiel schreef:
> > Hi all:
> >
> > I am Sysadmin at a small business. We have a complete mail-web-vpn
> > infrastructure and my boss is happy with it. I guess we are a
> successful
> > case of open software use in the "real world"
> 
> I do support for many of such firms.
> 
> > But -of course, there is always an issue- my users keep complaining
> > about OpenOffice migration to Libre Office. They even complain if I
> > change OO from 3.2 to 3.3. I believe there were major changes in that
> > version.
> >
> > The question is: Is there any way of freezing OO version indefinetly?
> 
> Yes there is, but it's not the right way.
> 
> You have to switch to libre office because the security support for
> oldstable will stop after a year after the new release.
> 
> And the security support of the browsers in oldstable is allready
> stopped. Ahum...
> 
> > I am currently using oldstable OO but I guess my time is going short.
> > What will happen when they release the new version of debian?
> 
> Wheezy is already released, maybe I understand something wrong?
> 
> Upgrades to new versions are not automatically, when you have the name
> of the release in your sources.list. So don't use "stable" but e.g.
> "wheezy".
> 
> > I don't know what to do...
> 
> You need to upgrade in the coming time.
> 
> Listen good to your users about the problems they have with it, and find
> solutions for them. Do it slow, and with attention. Maybe you can
> upgrade one PC first, so they can show what the problem is.
> 
> But when they come with nonsense be hard to them...
> 
> With regards,
> Paul van der Vlis.
> 
> 
> > Thanks in advance for any advices.
> >
> > Zeke
> >
> > PD: My native language is not English, I'm sorry for any mistakes
> in my
> > writing.
> >
> > --
> > ¨Como siempre, los ingenieros hicieron un
> > escándalo, aunque terminaron la maniobra
> > en la mitad del tiempo que habían rechazado
> > como imposible¨
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Paul van der Vlis Linux systeembeheer, Groningen
> http://www.vandervlis.nl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ¨Como siempre, los ingenieros hicieron un
> escándalo, aunque terminaron la maniobra
> en la mitad del tiempo que habían rechazado
> como imposible¨





-- 
Paul van der Vlis Linux systeembeheer, Groningen
http://www.vandervlis.nl


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Problems preseeding Wheezy (7.1)

[Richard Owlett]

1. Being on dialup, I use a purchased copy of the 10 DVD set for 
installation.
My preseed.cfg is on a USB stick. I use the "Automated install" 
option. Pressing  allows me to specify the file location. Of 
course it comes to a halt saying the configuration file could not 
be found. Switching screens with ALT-F2 allows mounting the USB 
stick.  I think there should be a "better way". But I was told 
about a year ago "that's how it's done". Has anything changed?


2. I base my preseed.cfg on the example at 
http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/example-preseed.txt . Near 
the end of the install process I'm asked to specify a keyboard 
layout though one was specified near the beginning of the file.



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Re: I have an Openoffice question for small business.

[Ezequiel]

I have done a list off complains in my Oo users. I had worked out almost
all of them, but there is a really bad issue about file load speed.

The accountant department have a set of (very) large files which are used
to calculate salaries to all employees. I already told them that is
suboptimal in the very best case and dangerous in the worst scenario.
In Ooany of that set of files loads
in 15 sec in average. In Lo it loads in about one minute.

I guess they are right about such load time performance.
I suppose my best shot is to wait until Lo improves.

In the meantime I talk to them. Sometime we, IT guys, have to do some
psychoanalyst work. Jah.

When I have news... I'll let you know.


Thanks for all your suggestions and advices

Zeke

PD: again. Forgive my English. I like to see my language well used, so I
understand if you fell I am destroying English with an axe :P


2013/10/10 Paul van der Vlis 

> Hi Ezequiel,
>
> Op 08-10-13 14:10, Ezequiel schreef:
> > Hi all:
> >
> > I am Sysadmin at a small business. We have a complete mail-web-vpn
> > infrastructure and my boss is happy with it. I guess we are a successful
> > case of open software use in the "real world"
>
> I do support for many of such firms.
>
> > But -of course, there is always an issue- my users keep complaining
> > about OpenOffice migration to Libre Office. They even complain if I
> > change OO from 3.2 to 3.3. I believe there were major changes in that
> > version.
> >
> > The question is: Is there any way of freezing OO version indefinetly?
>
> Yes there is, but it's not the right way.
>
> You have to switch to libre office because the security support for
> oldstable will stop after a year after the new release.
>
> And the security support of the browsers in oldstable is allready
> stopped. Ahum...
>
> > I am currently using oldstable OO but I guess my time is going short.
> > What will happen when they release the new version of debian?
>
> Wheezy is already released, maybe I understand something wrong?
>
> Upgrades to new versions are not automatically, when you have the name
> of the release in your sources.list. So don't use "stable" but e.g.
> "wheezy".
>
> > I don't know what to do...
>
> You need to upgrade in the coming time.
>
> Listen good to your users about the problems they have with it, and find
> solutions for them. Do it slow, and with attention. Maybe you can
> upgrade one PC first, so they can show what the problem is.
>
> But when they come with nonsense be hard to them...
>
> With regards,
> Paul van der Vlis.
>
>
> > Thanks in advance for any advices.
> >
> > Zeke
> >
> > PD: My native language is not English, I'm sorry for any mistakes in my
> > writing.
> >
> > --
> > ¨Como siempre, los ingenieros hicieron un
> > escándalo, aunque terminaron la maniobra
> > en la mitad del tiempo que habían rechazado
> > como imposible¨
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul van der Vlis Linux systeembeheer, Groningen
> http://www.vandervlis.nl
>



-- 
¨Como siempre, los ingenieros hicieron un
escándalo, aunque terminaron la maniobra
en la mitad del tiempo que habían rechazado
como imposible¨

Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

Half off-topic.

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 16:47 +0300, Alex Moonshine wrote:
> I'm using MATE right now and it's good, but from the perspective
> viewpoint, I'd stick with XFCE.

MATE from upstream does conflict with other software. This isn't good,
it's the most worse I can imagine and likely the reason that distros
aren't interested to add it to official repositories. MATE is the only
software I know available for Linux, that does conflict with common
software.

What Mate, Cinnamon and GNOME 3 still have in common is, that all three
do not provide the advantages provided by GNOME 2 and they all add
insane hard dependencies, at least PA and/or GVFS.

The DE that is the closest to GNOME 2, regarding to all aspects,
work-flow, "interaction" with other software, stability, needed
resources, IMO is Xfce 4, plus Xfce upstream doesn't insist to add
something as hard dependency that should be optional, so by default no
PA and no GVFS are needed.

+1 for Xfce

The OP want's to know how to get latest stable upstream release version
of Cinnamon for Debian, so IMO the "off-topic" notes we made are not
completely OT. At least a package maintainer has to ensure that
dependencies are fulfilled and that it's possible to install it while
other software is installed too. Installing Gnome completely parallel to
Mate e.g. is hardly possible.

How to compile the latest Cinnamon:
http://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/955

Just ignore the chapter "Add APT sources repositories".


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Re: reinstalling Nginx & others usin apt from command line

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:07:19 -0700
Gregory Nowak  wrote:

Hello Gregory,

>Brad, I would appreciate it if you would please not put words in my
>mouth! I didn't mention user space files or directories at all! What I

It was not my intention to either a) put words in your mouth or b) cause
offense, for which I apologise.

I placed that interpretation because, in response to my comment
regarding user space config files, you quoted the man page which, on the
face of it, appears to contradict what I said.  When people do that (IME)
without further comment, it's my understanding that it has been to point
out an error in a post.  I see though, that Jerry didn't interpret your
post that way, so I must re-evaluate my interpretation of such posts
because my view of them is in error. 

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
We're going to hell anyway, let's travel first class
Saturday Night - Kaiser Chiefs


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Alex Moonshine]

Still, when I was looking for something that feels like Gnome2, I was
dissatisfied with my short Cinnamon experience. Too slow and bloated,
doesn't resemble G2 much in fact.
I'm using MATE right now and it's good, but from the perspective
viewpoint, I'd stick with XFCE.


On 11.10.2013 16:36, Jochen Spieker wrote:
> Jonathan Dowland:
>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 09:24:36PM +0800, 陶治江 wrote:
>>> Why cinnamon?
>>> Try MATE, I think it is better.
>>> I have test cinnamon before, too much slower than MATE.
>> Cinnamon is in Debian officially, MATE is not. Yet, at least.
> And it will most probably never be. Mate needs deprecated Gtk2 libraries
> that nobody intends to support in the long run. Cinnamon uses the same
> libraries that Gnome3 uses which makes it much easier to maintain in a
> distribution like Debian.
>
> J.


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-10-11 at 18:50 +0600, MUH Jeeshan wrote:
> I want to know how can I install latest Cinnamon build, Cinnamon 2.0 in 
> Debian?

By building the packages on your own. IOW you need to compile it on your
own and take care about the dependencies from upstream. For Arch the
update to 2.0.2 is available by the repositories, but it will put in at
least one insane hard dependency, perhaps unimportant for those who
don't care about being forced to install the broken sound server PA or
who are willing to tinker with workarounds. I installed Cinnamon and
Mate, but IMO those DEs aren't usable for serious work on production
environments.

You didn't mention what version of Debian you're using. Since Debian
stable isn't that old, you likely won't experience the obligatory
dependency hell, you perhaps anyway need to update some of Cinnamon's
dependencies by compiling those on your own too.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Jochen Spieker]

Jonathan Dowland:
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 09:24:36PM +0800, 陶治江 wrote:
>> Why cinnamon?
>> Try MATE, I think it is better.
>> I have test cinnamon before, too much slower than MATE.
> 
> Cinnamon is in Debian officially, MATE is not. Yet, at least.

And it will most probably never be. Mate needs deprecated Gtk2 libraries
that nobody intends to support in the long run. Cinnamon uses the same
libraries that Gnome3 uses which makes it much easier to maintain in a
distribution like Debian.

J.
-- 
If I could travel in time I would show my minidisc to the Romans and
become Caesar until the batteries ran out.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 09:24:36PM +0800, 陶治江 wrote:
> Why cinnamon?
> Try MATE, I think it is better.
> I have test cinnamon before, too much slower than MATE.

Cinnamon is in Debian officially, MATE is not. Yet, at least.

-- 

Jonathan Dowlandjmtd.net


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Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[陶治江]

于 2013-10-11 21:19, Jochen Spieker 写道:

MUH Jeeshan:

I want to know how can I install latest Cinnamon build, Cinnamon 2.0
in Debian?

Wait for it to be uploaded to the archive and have it trickle down to
the Debian flavour you are using.

If you are using stable with no backports, that might take a few months
or even more than a year. Testing and unstable will probably receive it
earlier. Stable backports might carry it, too, but I wouldn't hold my
breath.

J.

Why cinnamon?
Try MATE, I think it is better.
I have test cinnamon before, too much slower than MATE.

F.Y.I>

--
/Thanks & Best Regrads! /

/Nicol TAO (taozhijiang)/

/Shenzhen, Guangdong Province, P.R. China 518055 /

/Being Stronger!!!/

Re: Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[Jochen Spieker]

MUH Jeeshan:
>
> I want to know how can I install latest Cinnamon build, Cinnamon 2.0
> in Debian?

Wait for it to be uploaded to the archive and have it trickle down to
the Debian flavour you are using.

If you are using stable with no backports, that might take a few months
or even more than a year. Testing and unstable will probably receive it
earlier. Stable backports might carry it, too, but I wouldn't hold my
breath.

J.
-- 
My medicine shelf is my altar.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


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Installing Cinnamon 2.0

[MUH Jeeshan]

Hi,
I want to know how can I install latest Cinnamon build, Cinnamon 2.0 in 
Debian?

Early reply is appreciated.
With thanks,
Muntasim-Ul-Haque


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 08:03:03PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> As someone said, if nobody else admins your box for you, you are the
> sysadmin for your box. It does not belittle professional sysadmins to
> acknowledge that you are doing the job any more than it belittles
> professional woodworkers to admit that a weekend carpenter works in
> wood.

To me, sysadmin means backup schemes which cover all the points on the
Tao of backup¹; a deployed configuration management system; CI-style
automated testing processes for it; VM infrastructure; failover;
migration processes; monitoring… and so on.

Getting a printer to work in Linux or a weekly rsync to a USB HDD
do not make you a sysadmin any more than managing your current
(checking in en_US afaik) makes you an accountant.

> But, yeah, if you are using apt-get or aptitude (or even synaptic) to
> maintain the software on your debian box, you are already performing
> the work of a jr. level sysadmin. You are your own sysadmin.

Nowadays a sysadmin should be telling their CM software what packages
to install, which in turn run apt-get, RPM, whatever…

¹ 


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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[berenger . morel]

Le 11.10.2013 13:03, Joel Rees a écrit :

On the converse, I think it is a crime to promise (as makers of
certain popular OSses do) that you can properly use a computer or
other computer-based communication device without administering or
managing the computer system.


It is not. I can use rapid transit without taking care or understanding 
anything behind it. I do not even have to know that it have wheels.
Same for computers. In some places, you can have access to public 
computers and use them for a set of operations, and people does not have 
to know how to do anything else on those.
Another, and last one, example. Take an electric saw (I do not know the 
English word for that). If it is your own, you will want to avoid buying 
a new one when the blade is too old, but it is a choice. You could just 
want to use it, buy a new one when it is too old. If so, you only know 
how to start it and how to apply it on what you want to cut. No need to 
know internals. And even if you know how to change the blade, it will 
not mean you are an electro-mechanic guy. Eventually, it can makes you 
an advanced user, but nothing more (because it is better to know which 
kind of blade to use to cut metal, or wood, or stone).
People who manage their computers themselves are not sysadmin, they are 
advanced users. Some of them are sysadmin, of course, but not because 
they maintain their own system.


In fact, the problem here is: "that you can properly *use* a computer". 
*Use*. Which use exactly have you in mind?



We're a long way from being able to build internet terminals that
people can use as simply as they use a phone, and it's quite possible
that it can't really be done.


Terminals to Internet? Probably it is not possible, since internet is 
not only the http section of the www. But building terminals for people 
to access websites is not so hard: take a keyboard, a pointing hardware 
( it can even be emulated by the keyboard ), a screen, a CPU, some RAM, 
a modem.
Build an OS around that, add to that OS a default configuration which 
works by default plus a website browser, and remove the ability for user 
to do anything than using the browser. No window manager, no software 
center, etc.

You have it.

Of course, for me this is a nightmare, not a dream. But it is doable. 
You simply have to sold the item pre-configured, and you know what? ISP 
are able to do that. They only do not do it, because people hopefully 
know that Internet is a tool to enhance their computer's features, like 
managing files in a lot of different ways: modifying images, writing 
texts, etc.



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Re: sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Shawn Wilson]

Joel Rees  wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Richard Owlett 
>wrote:

>We're a long way from being able to build internet terminals that
>people can use as simply as they use a phone, and it's quite possible
>that it can't really be done.
>

I'm not sending this email from a phone...  Nope. Where's that 'sent from my 
Kaiten mail app' signature when I need it? 


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Re: Ethernet bonding mode 5 only using one Slave adapter.

[Stan Hoeppner]

On 10/11/2013 2:42 AM, Muhammad Yousuf Khan wrote:
> [Cut].
> Are dual and quad port Intel NICs available in your country?
> 
> Not very easily but yes, we can arrange. i personally have PCIe 4 Port
> intel  NIC.
> so this can be arranged.

I recommend Intel NICs because they simply work, every time, full
bandwidth, full Linux kernel support, great feature set, etc.  Very high
quality, long lasting.  I had an Intel Pro/100 in service in an MX mail
server for over 10 years.  Still works.

...
> just  a very basic question i am into virtualization for few years on
> Debian box.
> i never host a VM on external box. i have more then 10 nodes and all VMs
> are hosted on local Mdadm RAID drives.
> Just to have an idea. if you like to suggest. how many VM can be hosted on
> 1G link. i know your next statement will be "it depends upon the
> utilization of your VM and decision would be made on IO stats basis"

Yes, it does depend on exactly that.

> but just asking in general how many general VMs  can be hosted on 1G LAN
> that are more or less untouched throughout the day.

If idle?  As many as you can fit in memory up to the hypervisor limit,
or virtual IP address limit, if there is a limit on these.  It's
possible to create VMs that have no network stack at all.  In that case
there is literally no limit WRT the shared GbE link.

> and my big big time confusion is backup the VM from Virtualization terminal.
> lets say for a while 2 VM are running on 1GB link and i am taking a backup
> of a VM from virtual server. as the server is connected to external storage
> on 1 GB link.  first virtual server will bring all the virtual drive data
> from External box to local RAM via same 1GB link on which VMs are hosted.
> it does mean that when backup will start all other VMs has to suffer?
> so even if 1 VM is running and we are making/creating a backup then how can
> we avoid chocking the link or bottle neck.

Ok, so apparently I misunderstood previously.  I was under the
impression that you had an NFS storage server box, a backup server box,
and many physically boxes on which you were running virtual machines.
I.e. 6 or more computers connected to a GbE switch.

If I understand correctly now, all of your VMs are on one PC, and there
is an NFS server somewhere on the network where you store the files.  Is
there a switch between the PC with all of the VMs, and the NFS server?
If so...

There are a couple of ways to address this:

1.  Add another GbE interface on the PC and dedicate it to NFS
traffic.  You should be able to bind the NFS client to a specific
IP address.  This will require setting up source based routing
so NFS traffic only uses the new interface.  Without source based
routing Linux will always use the first bound adapter for all
outbound traffic.  This dedicates the current NIC to everything
other than NFS traffic, so the VMs have 1Gb/s for non-NFS traffic,
and 1Gb/s for NFS traffic, 2Gb/s aggregate.  This would be my
preferred method.  It's low cost, just a NIC and a cable.  But
you have a steep learning curve ahead WRT Linux routing.  A bonus
is you'll learn a lot about Linux networking in the process.

2.  Implement QOS features in the switch, if it has them, to limit
the amount of bandwidth used by NFS traffic.  The problem with
this method is that most switches don't allow this on a per port
basis, but on a VLAN basis.  Which means you'd be limiting NFS
bandwidth everywhere, network wide, not just to the VM PC.

...
> any howto document on DRBD and GFS2 on debian? as i am using debian and
> only debian in overall environment.
> DRBD+GFS2 has got a native support on Redhat (as GFS2 is owned by Redhat).
> i do not have the experience nor confidence on stability of the both.
> i will be glad if you share any specific one with Debian.

DRBD and GFS2 are both kernel modules.  Their configuration on Debian
should be little different than on any Linux distro.

> i found this
> http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/DRBD

http://www.drbd.org/users-guide/ch-gfs.html

> the above is Primary/Primary installation means both drbd drives can be
> mounted. but there is a question.
> if i can mount in Primary/Primary mode on both the nodes then what is the
> need of GFS?
> just asking for my learning.

The key word here is "mount".  Linux cannot mount a block device.  DRBD
is a block device.  Linux mounts filesystems.  Filesystems reside on top
of block devices.  No two hosts can mount the same filesystem on a
shared block device unless it is a cluster filesystem.  Cluster
filesystem are designed specifically for this purpose.  However, in the
real world, the block device under GFS2 and OCFS2 filesystems is most
often a LUN on a fiber channel or iSCSI SAN storage array, not DRBD.

...
> Thanks for sharing such a detail and very helpful email.

You're welcome.

-- 
Stan



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sysadmin qualifications (Re: apt-get vs. aptitude)

[Joel Rees]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Richard Owlett  wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:24:57 -0500
>> Richard Owlett  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Being retired, I've no aspirations of being a sysadmin.
>>>
>>
>> If you run Linux, you already are. You don't get to choose.
>>
>
> I disagree. I may perform sysadmin tasks, that does not make me one.
> For comparison:
> A chef prepares meals for groups of people.
> I've prepared breakfast for 100 people after an Easter sunrise service.
> Does that make me a chef? Not if you seen the rest of my repertoire ;/

It makes you a specialty chef. ;-)

I've passed the LPIC at level 1. That makes me qualified to be a jr.
sysadmin in some people's eyes. (I'm no smarter after taking the test
than before, particularly because there's no way to review my wrong
answers.) This is all bogus.

As someone said, if nobody else admins your box for you, you are the
sysadmin for your box. It does not belittle professional sysadmins to
acknowledge that you are doing the job any more than it belittles
professional woodworkers to admit that a weekend carpenter works in
wood.

On the converse, I think it is a crime to promise (as makers of
certain popular OSses do) that you can properly use a computer or
other computer-based communication device without administering or
managing the computer system.

We're a long way from being able to build internet terminals that
people can use as simply as they use a phone, and it's quite possible
that it can't really be done.

But, yeah, if you are using apt-get or aptitude (or even synaptic) to
maintain the software on your debian box, you are already performing
the work of a jr. level sysadmin. You are your own sysadmin.

But if it stresses you out to worry about that, then I take it all back. ;-P

--
Joel Rees

Be careful where you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart.


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Re: reinstalling Nginx & others usin apt from command line

[berenger . morel]

Le 11.10.2013 06:10, John W. Foster a écrit :

I stripped every reference to evolution from the entire file system,


Including hidden folders?

Try this:

$cd ~
$find -iname '*evolution*'

At that point, if you found something, then you forgot hidden folders, 
so do


$rm -r `find -iname '*evolution*'`

to remove them. Just be careful when checking files after the 1st find, 
some applications could use a close name.
And, of course, this only works if and only if you application used 
it's own name as part of folder's names where it stores stuff. Usually, 
they does. Usually, but I can think of iceweasel which uses .mozilla for 
example, and I had many examples of the same problem when I was using 
windows and removing things by hands. Checking the provider's name of 
the software is never a bad idea.



purged the application as you suggested in your references, and
reinstalled it.


This will only remove files in /etc. We can like it or not ( I do not, 
but the problem is not simple ) but it is like that currently.




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Re: Typing in bar characters (accented characters?)

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 06 October 2013 07:44:22 Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Jo, 29 aug 13, 12:09:21, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Wednesday 21 August 2013 22:37:25 Bob Proulx wrote:
> > > Because now I know that specifically they want to input the
> > > barred characters āēīōū what would be possible methods to type
> > > those in that I should recommend to them?
> >
> > I cannot even display these characters in oyur email!  I get
> > empty boxes. This thread would appear to apply only to US
> > keyboards and locales.
>
> This is usually because the font you are using does not include
> that those characters. You could try switching your mail client
> (Kmail if I recall correctly) to something like DejaVu.

Thanks, Andrei.  You are right that I use KMail, with Bitstream Vera 
Sans.

Out of interest, I copied and pasted the relevant section Bob's email 
into LOWriter, with a view to changing the font an looking at the 
result.  But I didn't need to change the font.  It displayed 
correctly in Bitstream Vera Sans.

Curiouser and curiouser!  But at least I now know how to display 
something that is not displaying correctly in  KMail.  Copy and paste 
to LOWriter.

Lisi


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Re: apt-get vs. aptitude

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 02:43:34PM +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
> Guys, I must disagree with that. It would mean that any linux distro
> is hard to maintain, and that's wrong. Plus, sysadmin have a lot
> more knowledge than simple users and power users.

Yes, I think it sells real sysadmin a bit short.


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Re: reinstalling Nginx & others usin apt from command line

[Curt]

On 2013-10-11, John W. Foster  wrote:

> installed by an application. Currently for example evolution 'hides' its
> dot files somewhere other that a simple .evolution. I wanted to try to

>From their FAQ (but it may be outdated):

Where does Evolution store my data?

Evolution stores your data in $HOME/.evolution/, your account settings in
$HOME/.gconf/apps/evolution and your passwords in
$HOME/.gnome2_private/Evolution. The passwords are not stored encrypted, just
base64 encoded. SSL Certificates are stored in $HOME/.camel_certs, and if
Evolution crashed while you were writing an email, there could even be a file
$HOME/.evolution/.evolution-composer.autosave-123456 (where 123456 is some
string). Note: If you run Evolution 2.8 or older, the file will be at
$HOME/.evolution-composer.autosave-123456.

Note: If you run Evolution 2.32.0 or later version, ~/.evolution directory will
be gone and the files will be partitioned into three base directories which are
by default:

$HOME/.local/share/evolution

The user's data files :

$HOME/.config/evolution  Various configuration and state files

$HOME/.cache/evolution   Disposable data caches


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Re: Ethernet bonding mode 5 only using one Slave adapter.

[Muhammad Yousuf Khan]

[Cut].
Are dual and quad port Intel NICs available in your country?

Not very easily but yes, we can arrange. i personally have PCIe 4 Port
intel  NIC.
so this can be arranged.


> Before a person makes a first attempt at using the Linux bonding driver,
> s/he typically thinks that it will magically turn 2/4 links of Ethernet
> into one link that is 2/4x as fast.  This is simply not the case, and is
> physically impossible.  The 802.3xx specifications do not enable nor
> allow this.  And TCP is not designed for this.  All of the bonding modes
> are designed first for fault tolerance, and 2nd for increasing aggregate
> throughput, but here only from one host with bonded interfaces to many
> hosts with single interfaces.
>
>
yes, i tested that 802.3xx only gives me fail-over but not RR type load
balancing.

There is only one Linux bonding driver mode that can reliably yield
> greater than 1 link of send/receive throughput between two hosts, and
> that is balance-rr.,.,


Fully agreed thanks for sharing kernel related info ..


> The primary driving force you mentioned behind needing more bandwidth is
> backing up VM images.  If that is the case, increase the bandwidth only
> where it is needed.  Put a 4 port Intel NIC in the NFS server and a 4
> port Intel NIC in the backup server.  Use 4 crossover cables.  Configure
> balance-rr and tweak bonding and TCP stack settings as necessary.  Use a
> different IP subnet for this bonded link and modify  the routing table
> as required.  If you use the same subnet as regular traffic you must
> configure source based routing on these two hosts and this is a big
> PITA.  Once you get this all setup correctly, this should yield
> somewhere between 1-3.5 Gb/s of throughput for a single TCP stream
> and/or multiple TCP streams between the NFS and backup servers.  No
> virtual machine hosts should require more than 1 Gb/s throughput to the
> NFS server, so this is the most cost effective way to increase backup
> throughput and decrease backup time.
>



just  a very basic question i am into virtualization for few years on
Debian box.
i never host a VM on external box. i have more then 10 nodes and all VMs
are hosted on local Mdadm RAID drives.
Just to have an idea. if you like to suggest. how many VM can be hosted on
1G link. i know your next statement will be "it depends upon the
utilization of your VM and decision would be made on IO stats basis"
but just asking in general how many general VMs  can be hosted on 1G LAN
that are more or less untouched throughout the day.


and my big big time confusion is backup the VM from Virtualization terminal.
lets say for a while 2 VM are running on 1GB link and i am taking a backup
of a VM from virtual server. as the server is connected to external storage
on 1 GB link.  first virtual server will bring all the virtual drive data
from External box to local RAM via same 1GB link on which VMs are hosted.
it does mean that when backup will start all other VMs has to suffer?
so even if 1 VM is running and we are making/creating a backup then how can
we avoid chocking the link or bottle neck.



> WRT Ceph, AIUI, this object based storage engine does provide a POSIX
> filesystem interface.  How complete the POSIX implementation is I do not
> know.  I get the impression it's not entirely complete.  That said, Ceph
> is supposed to "dynamically distribute data" across the storage nodes.
> This is extremely vague.  If it actually spreads the blocks of a file
> across many nodes, or stores a complete copy of each file on every node,
> then theoretically it should provide more than 1 link of throughput to a
> client possessing properly bonded interfaces, as the file read is sent
> over many distinct TCP streams from multiple host interfaces.  So if you
> store your VM images on a Ceph filesystem you will need a bonded
> interface on the backup server using mode balance-alb.  With balance-alb
> properly configured and working on the backup server, you will need at
> minimum 4 Ceph storage nodes in order to approach 400 MB/s file
> throughput to the backup application.
>
>
i am a diehard fan of DRBD and Heartbeat the way they are both are working
is fantastic. with Ceph i was trying to explore the idea on someones saying.



> Personally I do not like non-deterministic throughput in a storage
> application, and all distributed filesystems exhibit non deterministic
> throughput.  Especially so with balance-alb bonding on the backup server.
>
> Thus, you may want to consider another approach:  build an NFS
> active/stand-by heartbeat cluster using two identical server boxes and
> disk, active/active DRBD mirroring, and GFS2 as the cluster filesystem
> atop the DRBD device.  In this architecture you would install a quad
> port Intel NIC in each server and one in the backup server, connect all
> 12 ports to a dedicated switch.  You configure balance-rr bonding on
> each of the 3 machines, again using a separate IP network