Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 14.11.2023 04:08, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 03:57:28PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:

My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386
Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a
router/gateway computer.

It should run Debian.

It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
have suitable expansion capability.

It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
physical footprint would be nice.

Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.

It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.

WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.

SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
spinning rust.


I am in the process of solving almost the exact same problem. At the
moment, this is my leading candidate:
https://www.newegg.com/neosmay-kc12-alder-lake/p/2SW-006Y-00074

This looks too good to be true and raises many red flags.
According to Intel specs [1] for this processor it's 28W of heat to 
dissipate and that is Base Power only, Turbo Boost is whooping 64W(!).
IMO it is impossible to do with fan-less design at this small size, so 
there will be at least small fan running at full speed at all time and 
there has to be quite beefy heatsink also.
There are no photos of this device disassembled and fake 3D rendered 
pictures doesn't count.
A quick search of "NEOSMAY MINI PC Disassembly" on YT gave no results, 
only fake reviews and useless unboxing videos.
I've seen 17" laptops with much larger heatsink solutions (multiple 
heatpipes and fans), struggle with effective heat dissipation.



[1] 
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/226254/intel-core-i71260p-processor-18m-cache-up-to-4-70-ghz/specifications.html

--
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Password managers

[John Conover]

pa...@quillandmouse.com writes:
> On Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:48:14 -0600
> John Hasler  wrote:
> 
> > Why does "accepted/popular" matter?
> 
> Not a great choice of words, perhaps. I was thinking in terms of those
> password managers which are written by others and included in the
> Debian repositories.
> 
> As it happens, pass(1) appeared to be precisely what I was looking for.
> My original code stores all passwords in a single file, whereas pass
> stores each password in a separate file. In addition, I don't need pass
> in order to decode the password files. If pass every goes away or
> disappears from the Debian repos, I can still fetch my passwords (and
> associated data). Plus, it will insert any line in the password file
> into the clipboard. And it's a terminal app. Yay.
> 
Hi Paul,

And pass(1) is an sh(1)/bash(1) script, making it expediently
configurable, with or without pass(1), as you say.

John

-- 

John Conover, cono...@panix.com, http://www.johncon.com/

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Stefan Monnier]

> If you ever do find one, please let me know. The lack of such a thing is
> the primary reason why I don't do E-mail on Android *at all*.

The closest I found so far is Fedilab, but:

- While it does provide some threading, it's incomplete.
- It's for the Fediverse rather than for email.


Stefan

Re: Password managers

[paulf]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:48:14 -0600
John Hasler  wrote:

> Why does "accepted/popular" matter?

Not a great choice of words, perhaps. I was thinking in terms of those
password managers which are written by others and included in the
Debian repositories.

As it happens, pass(1) appeared to be precisely what I was looking for.
My original code stores all passwords in a single file, whereas pass
stores each password in a separate file. In addition, I don't need pass
in order to decode the password files. If pass every goes away or
disappears from the Debian repos, I can still fetch my passwords (and
associated data). Plus, it will insert any line in the password file
into the clipboard. And it's a terminal app. Yay.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router

[Dan Ritter]

Charles Curley wrote: 
> It should run Debian.
> 
> It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
> have suitable expansion capability.
> 
> It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
> physical footprint would be nice.
> 
> Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
> stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.
> 
> It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
> firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.
> 
> WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.
> 
> SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
> spinning rust.

I bought one of these: 
https://www.amazon.com/Firewall-Appliance-HUNSN-Barebone-Storage/dp/B0B53MKZBX/
(4 x 2.5Gb NICs, N5105 CPU) -- I paid about $250 including 16GB
RAM and a 500GB SSD. Works very nicely.

For about $70 less you can get them with 2x 2.5Gb instead of 4;
for a little more money you can get up to 5x 2.5Gb NICs.

You can add wifi via a miniPCIe slot; I didn't bother. There are
antenna holes.

-dsr-

Re: Re: midnight commander

[mmcclain . 46]

Under buster my prompt is mike@RPI4b2:~>  on the CL whether it be a text VT or 
an xterm.
My prompt in mc is the same whether launched from the CL or via the desktop 
menu.
Under bookworm root's prompt whether on the CL or in mc is root@RPI4b2:~> .
Under bookworm my prompt is mike@RPI4b3:~>  on the CL whether it be a text VT 
or an xterm.
My prompt in mc is '$' whether launched from the CL or via the desktop menu.
I've looked everywhere I can think of, mc docs, configs, anything that looks 
like text trying to find the problem with no joy.
If noone here comes up with a clue I guess my next stop is 
midnight-commander.org but I need to do that from the bookworm computer which 
doesn't yet have working email.

Y'all be well,
Mike

Re: Re: midnight commander

[Mike McClain]

Re: Re: midnight commander

[Mike McClain]

Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 5:58 PM Charles Curley
 wrote:
>
> My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386
> Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a
> router/gateway computer.
>
> It should run Debian.
>
> It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
> have suitable expansion capability.
>
> It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
> physical footprint would be nice.
>
> Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
> stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.
>
> It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
> firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.
>
> WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.
>
> SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
> spinning rust.

It sounds like you want an all-in-one of sorts. Something with
hardware+software. I don't have a recommendation for that.

However, if you would like a piece of hardware that checks most of the
boxes and can run whatever you like, then I recommend you look at
Protectli. They make low power, fanless, mini pc's with multiple
ethernet ports. You can choose between 2, 4 and 6 ports.
 and
.

Protectli devices are typically used as firewalls. In fact, I use one
running pfSense as a firewall behind my ISP's router. I am very
pleased with it.

On the downside, Protectli does not have open hardware design or use
OpenFirmware. Those gadgets are a little harder to find.

Jeff

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 7:43 AM Brad Rogers  wrote:
>
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 12:04:47 +
> Andy Smith  wrote:
>
> Hello Andy,
>
> {gmail web interface}
> > that people put up with that.
>
> If they've always used google (and let's face it, there are plenty of
> people that fall in to that category), then they have no experience
> of anything else and quite possibly know no better.

Forté Agent for the win!

Jeff

Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 03:57:28PM -0700, Charles Curley wrote:
> My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386
> Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a
> router/gateway computer.
> 
> It should run Debian.
> 
> It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
> have suitable expansion capability.
> 
> It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
> physical footprint would be nice.
> 
> Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
> stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.
> 
> It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
> firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.
> 
> WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.
> 
> SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
> spinning rust.
> 
I am in the process of solving almost the exact same problem. At the
moment, this is my leading candidate:
https://www.newegg.com/neosmay-kc12-alder-lake/p/2SW-006Y-00074

In my case, I also use my router as a backup server, so I wanted dual
storage. If you can get by without that, then this much cheaper machine
might work for you:
https://www.newegg.com/p/2SW-006Y-00079

I haven't purchased either one yet, but I plan to purchase the first in
the coming weeks.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Hardware Advice Wanted: Router

[jeremy ardley]

On 14/11/23 06:57, Charles Curley wrote:
My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386 
Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a 
router/gateway computer. It should run Debian. It should either have 
two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or have suitable expansion 
capability. It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A 
small physical footprint would be nice. Most of the time it will run 
headless, but occasionally I will need to stick a monitor and keyboard 
on it. VGA will do fine. It will be a router. It will have at least 
DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will 
be fine. WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down. 
SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE 
spinning rust.



I use FriendlyElec devices that match all your requirements. You just 
have to load and configure the software yourself.


Current examples include NanoPi R6C for a simple router or NanoPi R6S if 
you want to run a DMZ LAN as well as an internal LAN. They all have 
2.5Gbit ethernet out of the box.


https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=69

Hardware Advice Wanted: Router

[Charles Curley]

My FIT-PCs that provide network services are getting old, and i386
Linux is slowly fading away. So I would like to replace them with a
router/gateway computer.

It should run Debian.

It should either have two gigabit (or better) Ethernet interfaces or
have suitable expansion capability.

It should be quiet: no fans, and low power requirements. A small
physical footprint would be nice.

Most of the time it will run headless, but occasionally I will need to
stick a monitor and keyboard on it. VGA will do fine.

It will be a router. It will have at least DNS, DHCP, apt-cacher-ng and
firewalld on it. Modest disk and RAM will be fine.

WiFi is handled elsewhere for now, but I won't turn it down.

SSD for storage would be nice, although the FIT-PCs do fine with IDE
spinning rust.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Nicolas George]

jeremy ardley (12023-11-14):
> I use Bluemail on android. It claims to do threading though I don't use it.
> Bluemail seems competent.

A quick search for screenshots on the web leads to the conclusion that
no, Bluemail does not do threading, just linear conversation.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[jeremy ardley]

On 14/11/23 02:30, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

On 13/11/2023 14:50, Anssi Saari wrote:

The Wanderer  writes:


And those are getting rare, I can't find a nice MUA for Android with
proper threading.


If you ever do find one, please let me know. The lack of such a 
thing is

the primary reason why I don't do E-mail on Android *at all*.


Possibly FairEmail would fit the bill. They advertize "conversation
threading" but I don't really if it's proper or not. The author is
responsive though.


Unfortunately doesn't look like so, this "coversation" threading is 
what gmail does, a linear sequence of messages.



I use Bluemail on android. It claims to do threading though I don't use 
it. Bluemail seems competent.

Re: Linux supprt

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:56 PM Stefan Monnier 
wrote:

> > In my experience I get much better support from the user community of
> > an open source product then I get from paid support of a commercial
> > product. Frequently I know more about the product than the person I am
> > dealing with.
>
> Same for me.  But I suspect we're in the minority.
>

I'll echo that. And yet in those work situations where I have needed
support for licensed Linux products from Red Hat/IBM, Canonical and AWS,
the support has almost always been better than online community support.
Which of course I have also leaned on. And community support is  better
than 90% + of support for other software products, for example dealing with
BMC recently.

IOW supported Linux seems to be better supported than any other software
these days. Both by vendors and by the community.

Stefan
>
>

Bookworm: lighttpd as tvheadend proxy

[Grzesiek Sójka]

Hi there,

I'm using Lighttpd as https to http proxy for encrypting tvheadend 
connections. After upgrading from Bullseye to Bookworm 
(lighttpd-1.4.69-1) I see only some table borders after opening 
tvheadend. Downgrading to lighttpd-1.4.59-1+deb11u2 solves the problem.


My guess is that it is related to websockets. This is my Lighttpd proxy 
config:


$HTTP["url"] =~ "^/tv/comet/ws" {
setenv.add-request-header   = (
"Connection" => "Upgrade")
setenv.add-response-header  = (
"Connection" => "Upgrade")
proxy.server = ( "" => (
( "host" => "127.0.0.1",
"port" => "9981" ) )
)
proxy.header = ( "upgrade" => "enable")
}
$HTTP["url"] =~ "^/tv/" {
proxy.server  = ( "" => (
"internal" => (
"host" => "127.0.0.1",
"port" => "9981",
"fix-redirects" => 1,
)
) )


--
Pozdriówka
Grzesiek
Najlepszym przyjacielem człowieka wcale nie jest pies a ..
... kolonia drożdży.
Duża kolonia => mnóstwo (% ;) ) radości.

Re: No 6.5.10-4 realtime kernel?

[Gilles Mocellin]

Le dimanche 12 novembre 2023, 16:08:06 CET Scott Denlinger a écrit :
> Sorry, in Debian world I'm looking for 'linux-image-6.5.0-4-rt-[. . .]' but
> it would be 6.5.10.
> 
> Scott Denlinger
> 
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 10:04 AM Scott Denlinger
> 
> wrote:
> > Does anyone know why there are no stock realtime kernels in trixie/sid? I
> > currently have 'linux-image-6.5.0-1-rt-amd64-unsigned' installed, but I
> > don't see any newer RT kernels available.
> > 
> > Scott Denlinger

Hello, I also was looking for it, but I've seen that the standard kernel seems 
to have some preemptive patch (dynamic ?) :

So I think the kernel packagers think it's sufficient ?

❯ uname -a 
Linux guitare 6.5.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Debian 6.5.10-1 
(2023-11-03) x86_64 GNU/Linux

Re: Linux supprt

[tomas]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 08:17:20AM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
>  Stefan Monnier writes:
> > I think this still only covers a small fraction of the problem.  It
> > just lowers the bar of the "technically-inclined" limit.  I think many
> > more people just want to have someone they can call on the phone to
> > help them get through their yearly technical problem.

Very true. Still a long way to go ;-)

> I think that to most people their "devices" (cellphone, desktop,
> whatever) are appliances. They have no more interest in learning about
> the internals of those than in the internals of their washing machines.

In one of our local mailing list someone posted a request for help
to exchange his iPhone's and iPad's batteries. He has an appointment
in the local hacker space :-)

Little by little...

But yes, in a way convenience can drown out freedom. See that other
thread in this mailing list about mail providers. All people flocking
to gmail although it's clear that Google would like to kill mail
as we know it.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 13/11/2023 14:50, Anssi Saari wrote:

The Wanderer  writes:


And those are getting rare, I can't find a nice MUA for Android with
proper threading.


If you ever do find one, please let me know. The lack of such a thing is
the primary reason why I don't do E-mail on Android *at all*.


Possibly FairEmail would fit the bill. They advertize "conversation
threading" but I don't really if it's proper or not. The author is
responsive though.


Unfortunately doesn't look like so, this "coversation" threading is what 
gmail does, a linear sequence of messages.


--
"We shall reach greater and greater platitudes of achievement."
-- Richard J. Daley

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: Debian GNU/Linux Books

[John Hasler]

Much about Debian *doesn't* change.  A book about it with
Bookworm/Trixie as an example and including a discussion of how it does
change could be quite useful.  It could be updated every few years. 
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Linux supprt

[John Hasler]

 Stefan Monnier writes:
> I think this still only covers a small fraction of the problem.  It
> just lowers the bar of the "technically-inclined" limit.  I think many
> more people just want to have someone they can call on the phone to
> help them get through their yearly technical problem.

I think that to most people their "devices" (cellphone, desktop,
whatever) are appliances. They have no more interest in learning about
the internals of those than in the internals of their washing machines.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Anssi Saari]

The Wanderer  writes:

>> And those are getting rare, I can't find a nice MUA for Android with
>> proper threading.
>
> If you ever do find one, please let me know. The lack of such a thing is
> the primary reason why I don't do E-mail on Android *at all*.

Possibly FairEmail would fit the bill. They advertize "conversation
threading" but I don't really if it's proper or not. The author is
responsive though.

Re: Password managers

[John Hasler]

Why does "accepted/popular" matter?
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[debian-user]

"Susmita/Rajib"  wrote:
> I have been listening to the conversations on my thread begun with my
> post https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/11/msg00505.html
> 
> In my first email itself I had mentioned that I use "Gmail webmail
> email-server".

So have I, mostly for my amusement.
 
> Yet in one of the replies I received, I get a comment like, "...
> It sounds like whatever you are using to read email (your MUA) is
> not very good. What software are you using for that purpose? You
> mention Gmail, but as far as I know (I am not a Gmail user myself),
> Gmail's web interface does do threading properly ..."
> 
> In these cases I am really concerned by the short attention and memory
> span of some users. I wonder how far they will proceed in their
> professions. I would have read a post thoroughly, ensured that I have
> understood it, then replied. Otherwise, I wouldn't have replied at all
> until I considered myself competent to reply.

Welcome to the real world. You may choose how to behave and others may
choose differently. How they choose to behave here may well be
different to how they behave in other places, for example, so it's
dangerous to extrapolate without further evidence. But people here do
generally try to help those, like you, who come to seek help. The onus
is on those who seek help to be tolerant of those who offer it, and not
to always expect perfection from everybody.

> I am not that tormented by a lack of social interactions that I would
> jump on to a conversation without due diligence just to relieve myself
> of my social isolation.
> 
> There is more garbage that follows from the individual, but I shall
> choose to ignore, and not unnecessarily waste my time on such
> individuals, but prefer to engage with Mr. David, Mr. George, Mr.
> Verdier and other such constructive co-users.

Frankly this is insulting and I suggest you apologize for it.

> To Mr. Rogers, I would say that Gmail and Google were successful
> because they offered plenty of space for all files, including emails,
> to be kept organised in one place. That serves me fine.
> 
> Earlier, I used to use webmail clients that were set up to handle
> IMAP, beginning with thunderbird. For a time, I used claws mail. Then
> as time progressed I found it better and lighter to use the Gmail
> webmail interface accessed from firefox-esr. I seldom had the
> necessity for complex threading options, so I didn't need an email
> client / email reader / Message (or mail) User Agent.

To each their own. You have chosen one path and I happen to have chosen
a different one. I have plenty of space on my own disks for my own
email and everything else, and I prefer to keep it all myself. I use
claws and am happy with it. I use POP3 and am happy with it. I don't
have a google account, nor any social media account, and I don't have
any android phone/device because I don't have a google account. (I
tried using f-droid but found it too limiting). I'm happy with my own
arrangements, just as you are happy with yours.

> There is one problem with Gmail, Mr. Verdier. If I reply to my own
> email, ensuring that I have kept a portion of the header intact, to
> reply to say debian-user@lists..., and changed/added/altered the
> subject line to [solved] or [was ...], and send it, Gmail invariably
> treats that email as a different subject and shows it as a separate
> conversation (or thread, as I say). Yes, I agree with Mr. David to
> better use 'Thread' as 'Conversation' instead.
> 
> In the end, what to me appears to be lacking from Debian side is a
> user(or client) side email interface for us to send emails directly
> to, and configure our settings to optionally receive from, the Debian
> Mailing Lists, bypassing the middleman interface like Gmail webmail.
> There is a native Debian interface for Bug Reporting. But nothing
> more. I might be mistaken in my perception. Please correct me if I am.

Well you can always reply through the Debian web interface. e.g.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/11/msg00551.html

Or you can use claws as I do. And I'm sure there are many other ways.
But none of the ways involve Debian having to do anything different.

> But a disclaimer: Team Debian, please don't get me wrong: you have
> already done enough for us, or to phrase myself better, we have done
> enough for ourselves already, continuing to have our freedom from the
> constant bombardment of commercial advertisements that we as Android
> users occasionally suffer from.

Speak for yourself. I don't use android.

> Ok, then it appears that I would have to live with this difficulty
> presently until gmail improves its webmail application to something
> like SmartList. If adequate buzz is made on social media, maybe Google
> could buy SmartList or strike some sort of a business deal with it.

Speak for yourself. I don't use social media. Also I have no idea what
SmartList is (please don't enlighten me).

> Thank you for presenting a wider perspective for me

Re: Password managers

[Max Nikulin]

On 13/11/2023 21:29, Erwan David wrote:
That was a bad idea : lokking closer I see that kpcli does not support 
the latest keepass file format (v4)


Trying "apt search" I have noticed some python tool "secrets" having 
python3-pykeepass in its dependency. Does anybody use it (or at least 
have tried it)? My specific interest is recovery scenario when usually 
used (and tuned) system is not available, so minimal dependencies matter 
when a Live image is booted.


It seems KeePassXC implements secret.service D-Bus API. Can 
gnome-keyring/kwallet/KeePassXC be used instead of "native" application 
for particular desktop or actually there are various lock-ins (e.g. 
anything other than gnome-keyring is call to trouble in Gnome)?

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Andy Smith]

Hi Rajib,

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 08:58:42PM +0530, Susmita/Rajib wrote:
> In my first email itself I had mentioned that I use "Gmail webmail
> email-server".
> 
> Yet in one of the replies I received, I get a comment like, "...
> It sounds like whatever you are using to read email (your MUA) is
> not very good. What software are you using for that purpose? You
> mention Gmail, but as far as I know (I am not a Gmail user myself),
> Gmail's web interface does do threading properly ..."
> 
> In these cases I am really concerned by the short attention and memory
> span of some users.

I do not read most of your threads because you begin them by asking
only for responses from "senior list members" and such like. In the
few occasions I have asked you if you ONLY want responses from
those who consider themselves such, you have never replied. So, I
have concluded that most of your messages have not been for me to
read or respond to.

This time around you did not start your email that way, so I read on
and attempted to help you.

In the posts of yours that I have seen, such as the one where you
got an error message from a web server and so decided to install a
bunch of unnecessary PHP and MySQL packages, there are many errors
of terminology and concepts.

I had asked again if you were using the gmail web interface in order
to double check you were really using the webmail as your MUA so we
could establish for sure if the problem was with the gmail web
interface or with some other piece of software. What I've seen of
this and others of your problems require a lot of questions to
establish the basic facts, if anyone is to help you.

> There is more garbage that follows from the individual, but I shall
> choose to ignore, and not unnecessarily waste my time on such
> individuals, but prefer to engage with Mr. David, Mr. George, Mr.
> Verdier and other such constructive co-users.

I have always felt that my responses to you have been constructive,
even when it seemed like you were not doing yourself any favours in
the way you were trying to get help.

I am sad to see that my efforts have been unwelcome and that you
have such a low opinion of me.

I will not bother you again.

At least something useful (to me) did come out of it: I learned that
likely 30%+ of the readers of this list use gmail, and if you edit
an email subject then gmail detaches that email from the
"conversation". I can see why that would be confusing for you, and a
huge percentage of other readers of this list who use such a limited
service.

Regards,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Debian GNU/Linux Books

[songbird]

Timothy M Butterworth wrote:
> All,
>
> I have been looking for commercial books written about Debian and there is
> very little selection. I am considering writing an updated Debian GNU/Linux
> Bible for Bookworm/Trixie. Before I started writing it I was wondering if
> anyone would even be interested in buying a copy of it?


  # apt-get install debian-handbook


  songbird

Re: claws-mail

[Andreas Ronnquist]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 04:39:02 + (UTC),
mike.junk...@att.net wrote:

>I'm running bookworm on a Raspberry Pi 4b.
>mike@rpi4b3:~> uname -a  
>Linux MikesPI 6.1.0-rpi4-rpi-v8 #1 SMP PREEMPT Debian 1:6.1.54-1+rpt2 
>(2023-10-05) aarch64 GNU/Linux
>This install didn't include exim4, postfix or anything supplying sendmail 
> and fetchmail won't work without an MTA.
>I've set up several accounts in claws-mail for email accounts at att.net 
> and gmail.com but so far haven't got them right to  the point that claws-mail 
> will collect mail from any of those accounts via POP mail.
>I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to get claws-mail working, so far 
> the only suggestions I've gotten from the Raspberry Pi forum is to switch to 
> thunderbird.
>I don't understand how either will handle local email like comes from cron 
> or other system programs and I depend on several scripts to do daily checks 
> on the system which cron emails me about on my buster system which has exim4, 
> fetchmail and mutt installed. Obviously I can install those here too but 
> suspect if I get this system set up correctly it should perform similarly.
>
>Any advice appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Mike
>

I believe gmail _requires_ OAUTH2 authorisation for "non-secure apps"
nowadays - which is pretty much all apps except gmails own.

See https://www.claws-mail.org/faq/index.php/Oauth2 for how to set it
up (It's a bit complicated) - I have stopped using gmail with
claws-mail, and don't use gmail very much. (They do a very bad job at
following mail standards, which your problem is a good example of).

My suggestion is to use another mail provider if possible.

best
-- Andreas Rönnquist
mailingli...@gusnan.se
andr...@ronnquist.net

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Susmita/Rajib]

I have been listening to the conversations on my thread begun with my
post https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/11/msg00505.html

In my first email itself I had mentioned that I use "Gmail webmail
email-server".

Yet in one of the replies I received, I get a comment like, "...
It sounds like whatever you are using to read email (your MUA) is
not very good. What software are you using for that purpose? You
mention Gmail, but as far as I know (I am not a Gmail user myself),
Gmail's web interface does do threading properly ..."

In these cases I am really concerned by the short attention and memory
span of some users. I wonder how far they will proceed in their
professions. I would have read a post thoroughly, ensured that I have
understood it, then replied. Otherwise, I wouldn't have replied at all
until I considered myself competent to reply.

I am not that tormented by a lack of social interactions that I would
jump on to a conversation without due diligence just to relieve myself
of my social isolation.

There is more garbage that follows from the individual, but I shall
choose to ignore, and not unnecessarily waste my time on such
individuals, but prefer to engage with Mr. David, Mr. George, Mr.
Verdier and other such constructive co-users.

To Mr. Rogers, I would say that Gmail and Google were successful
because they offered plenty of space for all files, including emails,
to be kept organised in one place. That serves me fine.

Earlier, I used to use webmail clients that were set up to handle
IMAP, beginning with thunderbird. For a time, I used claws mail. Then
as time progressed I found it better and lighter to use the Gmail
webmail interface accessed from firefox-esr. I seldom had the
necessity for complex threading options, so I didn't need an email
client / email reader / Message (or mail) User Agent.

There is one problem with Gmail, Mr. Verdier. If I reply to my own
email, ensuring that I have kept a portion of the header intact, to
reply to say debian-user@lists..., and changed/added/altered the
subject line to [solved] or [was ...], and send it, Gmail invariably
treats that email as a different subject and shows it as a separate
conversation (or thread, as I say). Yes, I agree with Mr. David to
better use 'Thread' as 'Conversation' instead.

In the end, what to me appears to be lacking from Debian side is a
user(or client) side email interface for us to send emails directly
to, and configure our settings to optionally receive from, the Debian
Mailing Lists, bypassing the middleman interface like Gmail webmail.
There is a native Debian interface for Bug Reporting. But nothing
more. I might be mistaken in my perception. Please correct me if I am.

But a disclaimer: Team Debian, please don't get me wrong: you have
already done enough for us, or to phrase myself better, we have done
enough for ourselves already, continuing to have our freedom from the
constant bombardment of commercial advertisements that we as Android
users occasionally suffer from.

Ok, then it appears that I would have to live with this difficulty
presently until gmail improves its webmail application to something
like SmartList. If adequate buzz is made on social media, maybe Google
could buy SmartList or strike some sort of a business deal with it.

Thank you for presenting a wider perspective for me, my fellow
co-users of Debian.

Best wishes.

Re: Linux supprt

[Stefan Monnier]

> In my experience I get much better support from the user community of
> an open source product then I get from paid support of a commercial
> product. Frequently I know more about the product than the person I am
> dealing with.

Same for me.  But I suspect we're in the minority.


Stefan

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Michel Verdier]

On 2023-11-13, The Wanderer wrote:

>> And those are getting rare, I can't find a nice MUA for Android with
>> proper threading.
>
> If you ever do find one, please let me know. The lack of such a thing is
> the primary reason why I don't do E-mail on Android *at all*.

>From f-droid you can get termux and install mutt (or others)

Re: claws-mail

[Karen Lewellen]

Jeff,
Karen  picking up the spool of this thread for a moment.
Can you share more on this claws email mailing list?
I suspect, but may be wrong, that the posters point is that  comparative 
factors impact preference.  support indeed, organizational preference, if 
one  is comfortable with imap etc.

Kare
returning the thread spool to you.



On Mon, 13 Nov 2023, Jeffrey Walton wrote:


On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 6:59 AM Brad Rogers  wrote:


On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 05:22:13 -0500
Jeffrey Walton  wrote:

Hello Jeffrey,


I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws.


It makes no difference.


To whom? The OP's problem, or hypothetically?


Many people prefer IMAP, certainly.  Equally, there are those that
prefer POP3 - myself among them.  Of course, with google, it's largely
academic;  They keep them all, anyway.


It might be a good idea to join the Claws-Mail mailing list. I think
you will find there is a difference in the level of support for POP3
and IMAP. There are usually several messages a month about the
differences.

Jeff

Re: On changing the subject lines, and gmail

[Michel Verdier]

On 2023-11-13, Andy Smith wrote:

> (Neither would I be able to tell how many of those gmail.com users
> read using the gmail web interface or their own MUA through IMAP
> etc.)

I stopped using gmail with my own MUA because of duplicates that can't be
easily deleted when you fetch mails. gmail considers a duplicate as
already fetched and don't show it. So I had to log on the webmail to
delete them. Perhaps not a problem if you use IMAP and let the mails on
gmail.

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2023-11-13 10:57:34 -0300, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> And those are getting rare, I can't find a nice MUA for Android with
> proper threading.

Not sure if that counts, but Mutt in Termux?

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: PATH question

[Timothy M Butterworth]

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 9:29 AM Thomas George 
wrote:

> As root I edited bashrc as found in root's home directory
> On 11/11/23 23:23, Timothy Butterworth wrote:
>
> On November 11, 2023, at 8:51 PM, Thomas George 
>  wrote:
>
> >I downloaded the google-chrome deb file to /opt/
> >used dpkg to install the program.
>
> Use sudo apt install ./filename.deb you may need to run sudo apt update
> first.
>
> >
> >initial attempt failed, two lib files missing.
> >added the sbin entries to path and tried again
> >missing files found on the dvd installation disk and google-chrome
> >successfully installed
> >On 11/11/23 13:22, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >> On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 01:03:45PM -0500, Thomas George wrote:
> >>> In a newly installed bookworm I edited PATH to
> >>> /usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
>
> What account did you add the sbin's too? The Root account should already
> have sbin and it is the only account that should.
>
> If you used su then you need to run either su -l or su -L to switch user
> to root with a login shell. I recommend disabling root login and using
> sudo.
>
> -, -l, --login
  Start the shell as a login shell with an environment similar to a
real login:

  •   clears all the environment variables except TERM and
variables specified by --whitelist-environment

  •   initializes the environment variables HOME, SHELL, USER,
LOGNAME, and PATH

  •   changes to the target user’s home directory

  •   sets argv[0] of the shell to '-' in order to make the shell a
login shell




> >> What, exactly, did you edit?
> >>
> >>> in order to
> >>> install google-chrome.
> >> Now that makes no sense... unless you ran into the buster su issue.
> >>
> >> Please see 
> ;.
> >>
> >>>This worked but the installed PATH had  two other
> >>> entries, something about games?
> >> /usr/local/games and /usr/games
> >>
> >>> I failed to save and did not take note of all the installed PATH
> entries.
> >>>
> >>> I have no sound with bookworm. Could these other entries be the
> problem?
> >> I sincerely doubt it.
> >>
>
>

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

Re: Linux supprt (was: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?])

[Larry Martell]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 7:48 AM Stefan Monnier  wrote:
>
> >> Indeed, technically-inclined people are often better served with Free
> >> Software, and Free Software can also be a great choice for large
> >> corporations who can either have on-site techsupport people or can hire
> >> external support, but it is a lot more difficult to find commercial
> >> support for merely non-techie user.  This is mostly the domain of
> >> proprietary software :-(
> >
> > The way out of this is having strong local user groups, which is,
> > of course, easier in densely populated areas.
>
> I think this still only covers a small fraction of the problem.
> It just lowers the bar of the "technically-inclined" limit.
> I think many more people just want to have someone they can call on
> the phone to help them get through their yearly technical problem.

In my experience I get much better support from the user community of
an open source product then I get from paid support of a commercial
product. Frequently I know more about the product than the person I am
dealing with.

Re: PATH question

[Timothy M Butterworth]

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 9:29 AM Thomas George 
wrote:

> As root I edited bashrc as found in root's home directory
> On 11/11/23 23:23, Timothy Butterworth wrote:
>
> On November 11, 2023, at 8:51 PM, Thomas George 
>  wrote:
>
> >I downloaded the google-chrome deb file to /opt/
> >used dpkg to install the program.
>
> Use sudo apt install ./filename.deb you may need to run sudo apt update
> first.
>
> >
> >initial attempt failed, two lib files missing.
> >added the sbin entries to path and tried again
> >missing files found on the dvd installation disk and google-chrome
> >successfully installed
> >On 11/11/23 13:22, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >> On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 01:03:45PM -0500, Thomas George wrote:
> >>> In a newly installed bookworm I edited PATH to
> >>> /usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
>
> User path should be:
/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/games:/usr/games

Root path should be:
/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin

> What account did you add the sbin's too? The Root account should already
> have sbin and it is the only account that should.
>
> If you used su then you need to run either su -l or su -L to switch user
> to root with a login shell. I recommend disabling root login and using
> sudo.
>
> >> What, exactly, did you edit?
> >>
> >>> in order to
> >>> install google-chrome.
> >> Now that makes no sense... unless you ran into the buster su issue.
> >>
> >> Please see 
> ;.
> >>
> >>>This worked but the installed PATH had  two other
> >>> entries, something about games?
> >> /usr/local/games and /usr/games
> >>
> >>> I failed to save and did not take note of all the installed PATH
> entries.
> >>>
> >>> I have no sound with bookworm. Could these other entries be the
> problem?
> >> I sincerely doubt it.
> >>
>
>

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

Re: Password managers

[Erwan David]

Le 13/11/2023 à 15:11, Klaus Singvogel a écrit :

Erwan David wrote:

Note that you may have less dependencies with kpcli (a cli client for
keepass password files)

I always was peering at kpcli.

Do you have any experience switching between the CLI (kpcli) and the GUI 
(keepassxc) version frequently?

Is this flawless possible to switch from the one to the other and back, or is 
it something which can't easily to be done?

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Klaus.


That was a bad idea : lokking closer I see that kpcli does not support 
the latest keepass file format (v4)


--
Erwan David

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 10:57:34 -0300
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI  wrote:

Hello Eduardo,

>It's not only google, I'd say it's the norm, except for "advanced"
>users that use good MUA.

Now *I'm* shocked (like Andy Smith is).  I haven't ever used web mail,
so had no idea.

>And those are getting rare, I can't find a nice MUA for Android with 
>proper threading.

Don't read mail on my phone, either.  Thus, have never looked for the
offerings there.  Sounds as though I'd hate it.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
I'm in need of your help now
Burn - Judgement Centre


pgpQ9QDS3gmGr.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 13/11/2023 11:10, The Wanderer wrote:

On 2023-11-13 at 08:57, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

It's not only google, I'd say it's the norm, except for "advanced"
users that use good MUA.

And those are getting rare, I can't find a nice MUA for Android with
proper threading.


If you ever do find one, please let me know. The lack of such a thing is
the primary reason why I don't do E-mail on Android *at all*.


There's ProfiMail Go 
(https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lonelycatgames.PM). 
Seems to be still installable, but it's old and not really maintained 
anymore. Occasionally I stumble on some minor bug, but it's usable.


--
The pollution's at that awkward stage.  Too thick to navigate and too
thin to cultivate.
-- Doug Sneyd

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: Password managers

[Klaus Singvogel]

Erwan David wrote:
> Note that you may have less dependencies with kpcli (a cli client for
> keepass password files)

I always was peering at kpcli.

Do you have any experience switching between the CLI (kpcli) and the GUI 
(keepassxc) version frequently?

Is this flawless possible to switch from the one to the other and back, or is 
it something which can't easily to be done?

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Klaus.
-- 
Klaus Singvogel
GnuPG-Key-ID: 1024R/5068792D  1994-06-27

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Nicolas George]

Stefan Monnier (12023-11-13):
> IIUC most people have never seen real threading :-(

There is real threading:

 N   11-13 Susmita/Rajib(1.5K) Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of 
Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023
 N   11-13 Susmita/Rajib(0.6K) ├─>
 N   11-13 Michel Verdier   (0.8K) ├─>
 N   11-13 Andy Smith   (1.9K) └─>
 N   11-13 David(0.9K)   └─>
 N   11-13 Andy Smith   (0.7K) └─>
 N   11-13 Stefan Monnier   (0.4K)   ├─>
 Ns  11-13 Brad Rogers  (1.4K)   └─>
 N   11-13 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI (0.7K) └─>
 Ns  11-13 The Wanderer (2.2K)   └─>

And then there is good threading:

/o
   |-o
   o-o-o-o-o-o-@
  \o

Or, with a more complex thread:

  /o
 |-o
 |-o-o-o
 |  /o
 | |  /o-o
 o-o-o-o-o-o-o-@-o
 | |   |-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
 | |\o-o-o-o
 | | |  \o-o-o
 | |  \o-o
 |  \o
 |-o-o
 |  /o
 | |/o
 | |   |/o-o
 | |   |   |-o
 | |   |   |  /o-o-o-o-o
 | |   |   | |  \o-o-o
 | |   |   | |-o
 | |   |   | |  /o-o-o
 | |   |   | | |-o-o
 | |   |   | | |  /o-o
  \o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
\o-o-o

I am sad that so few software implement this one.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[The Wanderer]

On 2023-11-13 at 08:57, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

> On 13/11/2023 09:31, Brad Rogers wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 12:04:47 + Andy Smith 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Andy,
>> 
>> {gmail web interface}
>>> that people put up with that.
>> 
>> If they've always used google (and let's face it, there are plenty
>> of people that fall in to that category), then they have no
>> experience of anything else and quite possibly know no better.
> 
> It's not only google, I'd say it's the norm, except for "advanced"
> users that use good MUA.
> 
> And those are getting rare, I can't find a nice MUA for Android with
> proper threading.

If you ever do find one, please let me know. The lack of such a thing is
the primary reason why I don't do E-mail on Android *at all*.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: USB2 not working after upgrading to bookworm

[Rafa]

Hi,

Thank you for your quick reply, Michael.

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 09:05:19PM +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
>
> What kernel, systemd and udev versions are installed and running in
> the Bookworm install?

kernel version 6.1 and systemd and udev version 252:

$ uname -a
Linux  6.1.0-13-amd64 #1 SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Debian 6.1.55-1 
(2023-09-29) x86_64 GNU/Linux

$ LANG=C dpkg-query --list systemd
[...]
||/ Name   Version  Architecture Description
+++-==---=
ii  systemd252.17-1~deb12u1 amd64system and service manager

$ LANG=C dpkg-query --list udev
[...]
||/ Name   Version  Architecture Description
+++-==---===
ii  udev   252.17-1~deb12u1 amd64/dev/ and hotplug management 
daemon

> Just how _did_ you "upgrade" the system while retaining the ability to
> boot the older install? [...]

I followed chapter 4 "Upgrades from Debian 11 (bullseye)" from the "Release
Notes for Debian 12 (bookworm), 64-bit PC" manual.

With regard to the ability to boot the older install, I keep two systems
installed on the machine, on different file system partitions (I will
call one of them the "TEST" system and the other one the "PROD" system).
Normally, both of them are Debian stable systems.

The grub menu contains entries to boot either system.

When I am ready to upgrade to a new version, first I upgrade the "TEST"
system and I verify that everything is working fine. If it is not, I try
to solve any problem I have before upgrading the "PROD" system.

Currently I have upgraded the "TEST" system to bookworm, while the
"PROD" system is still at bullseye.

This is how I am able to boot to either system.

> [...] please
> specify more exactly what you mean by "boot bullseye" and "boot
> bookworm".

In the current configuration, "boot bullseye" means boot the "PROD"
system and "boot bookworm" means boot the "TEST" system.

> Do you see any difference if you hook up a USB 2 device to a port
> which is physically USB 2 or USB 3?

When using a USB2 port I get error messages in dmesg, and cannot use the
device. When using a USB3 port, instead, messages in dmesg seem to be ok
and I can mount the device and work with it normally.

--

# dmesg -w

(plug a USB2 device into a USB2 port)

[  918.226025] usb 7-1: new full-speed USB device number 53 using ohci-pci
[  918.386029] usb 7-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  918.654039] usb 7-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  918.946053] usb 7-1: new full-speed USB device number 54 using ohci-pci
[  919.106056] usb 7-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  919.374063] usb 7-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  919.482114] usb usb7-port1: attempt power cycle
[  919.718072] usb 2-1: new high-speed USB device number 80 using ehci-pci
[  919.846076] usb 2-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  920.086086] usb 2-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  920.322096] usb 2-1: new high-speed USB device number 81 using ehci-pci
[  920.450099] usb 2-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  920.686105] usb 2-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  920.794138] usb usb2-port1: attempt power cycle
[  920.998137] usb 2-1: new high-speed USB device number 82 using ehci-pci
[  921.414135] usb 2-1: device not accepting address 82, error -32
[  921.542137] usb 2-1: new high-speed USB device number 83 using ehci-pci
[  921.958185] usb 2-1: device not accepting address 83, error -32
[  921.958233] usb usb2-port1: unable to enumerate USB device
[  922.342175] usb 7-1: new full-speed USB device number 56 using ohci-pci
[  922.502170] usb 7-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  922.770180] usb 7-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  923.062191] usb 7-1: new full-speed USB device number 57 using ohci-pci
[  923.222194] usb 7-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  923.490206] usb 7-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  923.598258] usb usb7-port1: attempt power cycle
[  923.834214] usb 2-1: new high-speed USB device number 84 using ehci-pci
[  923.962255] usb 2-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  924.198226] usb 2-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  924.434235] usb 2-1: new high-speed USB device number 85 using ehci-pci
[  924.562241] usb 2-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  924.798250] usb 2-1: device descriptor read/64, error -32
[  924.906283] usb usb2-port1: attempt power cycle
[  925.110259] usb 2-1: new high-speed USB device number 86 using ehci-pci
[  925.526270] usb 2-1: device not accepting address 86, error -32
[  925.654276] usb 2-1: new high-speed USB device number 87 using ehci-pci
[  926.070290] usb 2-1: device not accepting address 87, error -32
[  926.070335] usb usb2-port1: unable to enumerate USB device
[  926.426303] usb 7-1: new full-speed USB device number 59 using ohci-pci
[  926.586306] usb 7-1: device descr

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 13/11/2023 09:31, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 12:04:47 +
Andy Smith  wrote:

Hello Andy,

{gmail web interface}

that people put up with that.


If they've always used google (and let's face it, there are plenty of
people that fall in to that category), then they have no experience
of anything else and quite possibly know no better.


It's not only google, I'd say it's the norm, except for "advanced" users 
that use good MUA.


And those are getting rare, I can't find a nice MUA for Android with 
proper threading.


--
"Humor is a drug which it's the fashion to abuse."
-- William Gilbert

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

On changing the subject lines, and gmail

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 04:39:01PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> If the advice you get solves a problem - post that back to the list
> in the thread and change the message subject slightly to make it
> clear that this is an answer.

After being shocked to learn in this year 2023 that gmail web
interface does not do threading, and that changing the subject line
will break such an email out from what gmail considers the
"conversation" and into a new "conversation", I wondered how many
people reading this list use gmail and might thus be confused by
this practice.

Of course, I cannot tell how many passive readers there are of this
list, so all I could check was the posters.

For the last year back from today inclusive:

686 unique emails
363 unique domains
 1:  213 addresses from gmail.com (31.0%)
 2:   16 addresses from debian.org (2.3%)
 3:   10 addresses from protonmail.com (1.5%)
 4:9 addresses from yahoo.com (1.3%)
 5:8 addresses from gmx.net (1.2%)
 6:7 addresses from gmx.com (1.0%)
 7:6 addresses from mailbox.org (0.9%)
 8:6 addresses from outlook.com (0.9%)
 9:5 addresses from posteo.de (0.7%)
10:5 addresses from web.de (0.7%)

Mind boggling.

(Neither would I be able to tell how many of those gmail.com users
read using the gmail web interface or their own MUA through IMAP
etc.)

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Stefan Monnier]

> Wow. I'm genuinely shocked it is so bad and that people put up with
> that.

IIUC most people have never seen real threading :-(
Worse, when I showed it to some non-techie users they didn't like it.

Whether it's a kind of Stockholm syndrome or not is hard to tell.
I suspect we'd have to convince Outlook or Gmail developers to provide
real threading and advertise it as a major new feature in order to find
out.


Stefan

Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

[Stefan Monnier]

Anssi Saari [2023-11-13 12:34:13] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier  writes:
>> My home NAS is in a completely different category:
>> an ARM SBC with on-board SATA.  Much smaller, extremely quiet (no fan),
>> and between 5W and 10W of power consumption depending on whether it's
>> mostly idle (the overwhelmingly common case) or not.
> So which ARM SBC and does it run stock Debian? And how many SATA ports?

In my case, I'm currently using a BananaPi at one place and at the other
I upgraded to an ODroid-M1.  In both cases there's only a single SATA
port (tho the ODroid has an nvme-M2 port as well which I'm not
currently using).  The ODroid-M1 is the main "backup server" and the
other holds my backup's backup.

Both run stock Debian stable (in both cases the installation was
manual/tricky rather than via debian-installer :-( ).

None of the services they provide are sufficiently important to require
something like RAID, which makes things easier.

And yes, I've had problems with the BananaPi's power supply (I had to
try various power blocks *and* cables until finding ones good enough
for reliable operation :-( ).
The ODroid's power supply seems significantly better in this respect.


Stefan

Linux supprt (was: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?])

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Indeed, technically-inclined people are often better served with Free
>> Software, and Free Software can also be a great choice for large
>> corporations who can either have on-site techsupport people or can hire
>> external support, but it is a lot more difficult to find commercial
>> support for merely non-techie user.  This is mostly the domain of
>> proprietary software :-(
>
> The way out of this is having strong local user groups, which is,
> of course, easier in densely populated areas.

I think this still only covers a small fraction of the problem.
It just lowers the bar of the "technically-inclined" limit.
I think many more people just want to have someone they can call on
the phone to help them get through their yearly technical problem.


Stefan

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 12:04:47 +
Andy Smith  wrote:

Hello Andy,

{gmail web interface}
> that people put up with that.

If they've always used google (and let's face it, there are plenty of
people that fall in to that category), then they have no experience
of anything else and quite possibly know no better.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
It's only bits of plastic, lines projected on the wall
Keep It Clean - The Vibrators


pgps28bkTXXkZ.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: claws-mail

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 07:09:55 -0500
Jeffrey Walton  wrote:

Hello Jeffrey,

>> >I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws.  
>> It makes no difference.  
>To whom? The OP's problem, or hypothetically?

Sorry, I was not explicit;  No difference to CM.  POP3 and IMAP (etc,
etc.) are protocols CM handles well.  It also makes no difference to OP,
personal preference aside, of course.

>It might be a good idea to join the Claws-Mail mailing list. I think

Already on it.  Although I rarely post there these days.  Never when it
comes to setting up google;  I've never done it, so have no advice to
offer.  Other than 'Don't'   :-)

And you're right, there are often messages about setting CM up.  Most
often with google.  Those people usually expect things to 'just work'
and can get overwhelmed by CMs options.

Additionally, google don't make it easy to use software they don't
approve of (read: isn't theirs).

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
People stare like they've seen a ghost
Titanic (My Over) Reaction - 999


pgp_2I6sODVKd.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: claws-mail

[Marco Moock]

Am 13.11.2023 um 07:09:55 Uhr schrieb Jeffrey Walton:

> It might be a good idea to join the Claws-Mail mailing list. I think
> you will find there is a difference in the level of support for POP3
> and IMAP. There are usually several messages a month about the
> differences.

Can you please tell us more about that?

IIRC both protocols are supported and thus they are different protocols
with different specification, they behave different.

Re: claws-mail

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 6:59 AM Brad Rogers  wrote:
>
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 05:22:13 -0500
> Jeffrey Walton  wrote:
>
> Hello Jeffrey,
>
> >I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws.
>
> It makes no difference.

To whom? The OP's problem, or hypothetically?

> Many people prefer IMAP, certainly.  Equally, there are those that
> prefer POP3 - myself among them.  Of course, with google, it's largely
> academic;  They keep them all, anyway.

It might be a good idea to join the Claws-Mail mailing list. I think
you will find there is a difference in the level of support for POP3
and IMAP. There are usually several messages a month about the
differences.

Jeff

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:48:31AM +, David wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 11:29, Andy Smith  wrote:
> > It is only the most inept of MUAs that fail to use these headers
> > and rely only on the Subject: header being the same.
> 
> Agreed. But that's what the Gmail web interface has always done
> since its introduction. It is what it is.

Wow. I'm genuinely shocked it is so bad and that people put up with
that. But on the other hand, comparatively few people use email a
lot.

So I guess Rajib's answer is, "put up with it or use a decent MUA
that talks to Gmail through IMAP or whatever."

Apologies for the misinformation, and thanks for the correction.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: claws-mail

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 05:22:13 -0500
Jeffrey Walton  wrote:

Hello Jeffrey,

>I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws.

It makes no difference.

Many people prefer IMAP, certainly.  Equally, there are those that
prefer POP3 - myself among them.  Of course, with google, it's largely
academic;  They keep them all, anyway.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
You destroyed my confidence, you broke my nerve
Nervous Wreck - Radio Stars


pgp8eqz09FY6g.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[David]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 at 11:29, Andy Smith  wrote:

> but as far as I know (I am not a Gmail user myself),
> Gmail's web interface does do threading properly

Hi,

The Gmail web interface does not display emails as threads, by design [1].

"""A conversation breaks off into a new conversation if the subject line
changes or the conversation gets to more than 100 emails."""

It groups messages together ("a conversation") if their subject lines are
similar, without any visual representation of the relationships expressed
by the "In-reply-to" headers.

> It is only the most inept of MUAs that fail to use these headers
> and rely only on the Subject: header being the same.

Agreed. But that's what the Gmail web interface has always done
since its introduction. It is what it is.

I hope this helps, but I have nothing further to add to this thread.

[1] https://support.google.com/mail/answer/5900

Re: claws-mail

[Joe]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 05:22:13 -0500
Jeffrey Walton  wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 4:42 AM  wrote:
> >
> > I'm running bookworm on a Raspberry Pi 4b.  
> > mike@rpi4b3:~> uname -a  
> > Linux MikesPI 6.1.0-rpi4-rpi-v8 #1 SMP PREEMPT Debian
> > 1:6.1.54-1+rpt2 (2023-10-05) aarch64 GNU/Linux This install didn't
> > include exim4, postfix or anything supplying sendmail and fetchmail
> > won't work without an MTA. I've set up several accounts in
> > claws-mail for email accounts at att.net and gmail.com but so far
> > haven't got them right to  the point that claws-mail will collect
> > mail from any of those accounts via POP mail. I'd appreciate any
> > suggestions on how to get claws-mail working, so far the only
> > suggestions I've gotten from the Raspberry Pi forum is to switch to
> > thunderbird. I don't understand how either will handle local email
> > like comes from cron or other system programs and I depend on
> > several scripts to do daily checks on the system which cron emails
> > me about on my buster system which has exim4, fetchmail and mutt
> > installed. Obviously I can install those here too but suspect if I
> > get this system set up correctly it should perform similarly.
> >
> > Any advice appreciated.  
> 
> I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws.
> 
> Also see the CM wiki, and articles like
> .
> 

I use Claws, but from a local network IMAP server, using a network MTA.
I wouldn't have thought POP should behave very differently. Claws with
external accounts shouldn't need a local MTA, the SMTP server you have
configured for the account is the MTA, which Claws will talk to
directly.

I think you must have a local MTA for some system emails to work, but
there are very much simpler ones than exim4 to do that job. Someone
else can probably help here, as I have exim4 on all my Linux machines.

Thunderbird is a respectable email client but I find it very slow on
normal PCs, and it will be glacial on a Pi, even a 4. Whatever the
issue is which is stopping Claws may also affect TB. You got the TB
advice because it's what most people are familiar with, not because
it's any better for email than Claws. Having said that, TB has
connection parameters built in for the big, well-known email providers
such as Gmail and MS.

Something that is sometimes difficult in these encrypted days is
getting the right combination of ports and password protocols. The old
unencrypted connection to port 110 for POP3 probably doesn't work
anywhere now.

-- 
Joe

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 09:36:33AM +0530, Susmita/Rajib wrote:
> May please the concerned portions of
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/11/msg00443.html be perused,
> as a part of my conversation with Mr. Cater, also quoted below:
> 
> "... There is one problem with this approach, as stated earlier. For the
> Mailing list, any change of subject from my Gmail webmail email-server
> makes such an email detached from the main thread and treats it as a
> different subject.

How email threads are visualised is a matter for your mail reading
software, commonly referred to as your Mail User Agent (MUA). This
software reads various headers in the email to determine where in a
thread that particular message belongs. These headers include
"In-Reply-To:" and "References:". That permits the MUA to see the
relationship between messages even when the subject line changes,

It is only the most inept of MUAs that fail to use these headers
and rely only on the Subject: header being the same.

It sounds like whatever you are using to read email (your MUA) is
not very good. What software are you using for that purpose? You
mention Gmail, but as far as I know (I am not a Gmail user myself),
Gmail's web interface does do threading properly, so if you were
using that I don't think you would have such problems.

Are you using Gmail's web interface or some other MUA that talks to
Gmail perhaps by IMAP protocol?

> Mailman also had(sic) an email editor for
> posting messages, that would have been a better option.

Your issue has nothing to do with Mailman. The Debian lists don't
use Mailman. The Debian lists use MHonArc to generate a web archive
of messages (as you linked above) for the convenience of browsing
outside of an MUA, search engines, etc. Your issue is not with
MHonArc but with whatever software you use to read email.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Hardware for a back up server? [WAS Re: How to use dmsetuup?]

[Anssi Saari]

Stefan Monnier  writes:

> My home NAS is in a completely different category:
> an ARM SBC with on-board SATA.  Much smaller, extremely quiet (no fan),
> and between 5W and 10W of power consumption depending on whether it's
> mostly idle (the overwhelmingly common case) or not.

So which ARM SBC and does it run stock Debian? And how many SATA ports?

Re: Help ! No syslog anymore

[Michael Biebl]

Am 13.11.23 um 10:13 schrieb Bhasker C V:

I forgot to answer the question on why I am doing this
I am experimenting on a no-log system where there is no writes 
what-so-ever to /var/log (except for mails) or systemd journal 
(currently kept volatile)

/tmp/ is tmpfs mounted
Attached is the rsyslog config as-it-is being used now.



With the attached rsyslog.conf, disabling PrivateTmp makes rsyslog log 
to /run/server.log correctly (verified locally).


I can only assume you didn't follow my instructions properly.

Please make sure after following my instruction that you have afterwards
# systemctl show -P PrivateTmp rsyslog.service
no

Btw, for your use case, a subdirectory in /run would be more suitable, 
like say /run/syslog/.


Also, you currently have
*.* -/tmp/server.log
*and*
*.=info;*.=notice;*.=warn;\
auth,authpriv.none;\
cron,daemon.none;\
mail,audit,news.none-/tmp/server.log

This doesn't make any sense.
This will basically duplicate the log messages in /tmp/server.log and 
interleave them.


Either you split up the logs facilities and log them to separate files 
or you only keep a single log rule like


*.* -/tmp/server.log

which simply logs everything to /tmp/server.log



OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: claws-mail

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 4:42 AM  wrote:
>
> I'm running bookworm on a Raspberry Pi 4b.
> mike@rpi4b3:~> uname -a
> Linux MikesPI 6.1.0-rpi4-rpi-v8 #1 SMP PREEMPT Debian 1:6.1.54-1+rpt2 
> (2023-10-05) aarch64 GNU/Linux
> This install didn't include exim4, postfix or anything supplying sendmail 
> and fetchmail won't work without an MTA.
> I've set up several accounts in claws-mail for email accounts at att.net 
> and gmail.com but so far haven't got them right to  the point that claws-mail 
> will collect mail from any of those accounts via POP mail.
> I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to get claws-mail working, so far 
> the only suggestions I've gotten from the Raspberry Pi forum is to switch to 
> thunderbird.
> I don't understand how either will handle local email like comes from 
> cron or other system programs and I depend on several scripts to do daily 
> checks on the system which cron emails me about on my buster system which has 
> exim4, fetchmail and mutt installed. Obviously I can install those here too 
> but suspect if I get this system set up correctly it should perform similarly.
>
> Any advice appreciated.

I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws.

Also see the CM wiki, and articles like
.

Jeff

Re: upgrade to bookworm broke ssh x11 forwarding

[tomas]

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:10:17AM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

[...]

> This is what I've done for my old laptop, but the dropbear package
> is *not* needed for that! You just need the dropbear-initramfs
> package [...]

Aha -- now I know the full story. Thanks, Vincent (and all the other
smart folks sharing their wisdom here)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: upgrade to bookworm broke ssh x11 forwarding

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2023-11-10 15:32:53 +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2023, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> 
> > On 2023-11-10 10:57:21 +0100, Michael wrote:
> >> On Thursday, 9 November 2023 19:08:25 CET, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> >>> No, this is not a normal phenomenon for bookworm upgrades.  I've never
> >>> heard of it happening to anyone before.
> >>
> >> i disagree. i had the same problem b/c i also had dropbear installed.
> >
> > It would be interesting to know why dropbear got installed
> 
> at sometime in the distance past i thought it would be handy
> my initial ramdisk is set up so i can remotely unlock the filesystems

This is what I've done for my old laptop, but the dropbear package
is *not* needed for that! You just need the dropbear-initramfs
package (dropbear-bin will be installed as a consequence as a
dependency, but not the dropbear package, which contains the
startup scripts). If you install the dropbear package, i.e. the
startup scripts, this means that you want dropbear as you're
main sshd daemon rather than the one from OpenSSH.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: Help ! No syslog anymore

[Bhasker C V]

I forgot to answer the question on why I am doing this
I am experimenting on a no-log system where there is no writes what-so-ever
to /var/log (except for mails) or systemd journal (currently kept volatile)
/tmp/ is tmpfs mounted
Attached is the rsyslog config as-it-is being used now.



On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 1:46 PM Michael Biebl  wrote:

> Am 12.11.23 um 08:18 schrieb Bhasker C V:
> > Hi,
> > I have tried removing PrivateTmp=no in the rsyslog service file and it
> > still doesnt work
>
> I assume you mean PrivateTmp=yes?
>
> > I  have removed the service file which I had created too.
> > I found that when I run the daemon manually, it works well. Hence I have
> > disabled rsyslog and I have put the daemon startup in my rc-local
> >
> > But yes, removing PrivateTmp doesnt help.
> > I am happy to troubleshoot this if anyone wants me to be a QA for this.
>
> As a first step, please share your complete rsyslog config *verbatim*
>
>
> Michael
>
> [Not subsribed to debian-user, so please CC on replies]
>


rsyslog.conf
Description: Binary data

Re: Request advice on Optimal Combo-usage of Gmail and Mailman, as mentioned in Msg-Id. "2023/11/msg00443"

[Michel Verdier]

On 2023-11-13, Susmita/Rajib wrote:

> "... There is one problem with this approach, as stated earlier. For the
> Mailing list, any change of subject from my Gmail webmail email-server
> makes such an email detached from the main thread and treats it as a
> different subject.

I am not sure to understand your problem. But standard mail clients do
threading not on subject but on the header In-Reply-To. It permits to add
"solved", "was", or other tags to the subject. It also permits to attach
a reply to some lower place in the thread, which makes easier reading.

> "... Between the two options therefore, I usually choose to keep all the
> posts consolidated within a single thread for the future users. I hope
> that with your greater experience, expertise and wisdom, you would be
> able to guide me in this regard, w.r.t. gmail and Mailman."

Yes : drop gmail.