from:"GiaThnYgeia"



Richard Owlett:
>  4. All installs in this thread have been done using DVD 1 of
> 13 of Debian 8.6.0 - thus all intrinsically use the same
> kernel.

Is this with the actual dvd or the image of the 1st DVD on a usb-stick?
I assume once everything was installed and rebooted there was an upgrade
to the latest Jessie which I am pretty sure incorporated a new version
of grub-xxx and updates the grub.cfg based on the current state of that
boot.  During the installation it asks you to select and confirm where
you want grub installed, but when it is upgraded as a package it bases
its installation on previous options, except it reviews that the
installed systems on partitions are actually there.

> Does any of this justify a bug report. Especially as I do not
> have the bandwidth to do a netinstall of a pre-release version?

If your bug reporting is functional, go ahead it is FREE!  :)
I am saying this because it only works with the appropriate network/mail
setup that Debian dictates.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

"keep rocking in the non-free world" Neilznotyoung

Re: Possibly erroneous "device not present" message during boot

Richard Owlett:
> On 04/12/2017 12:13 PM, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>> Le 12/04/2017 à 17:14, Richard Owlett a écrit :
>>>
>>> Whether initiated after power-on OR a restart the observed sequence is:
>>> 1. Appearance of the Grub2 menu with a choice of 4 instances of Debian.
>>> 2. Select instance installed on the SD card.
>>> 3. Screen clears, this message appears against the Debian 8 background.
>>>error:  no such device: 380e2a6d-f851-4fd1-9db2-869a0982b511.
>>>Press any key to continue ...
>>> 4. Otherwise the instance of Debian on the SD card boots routinely.
>>
>> This is a GRUB error message which cannot find the UUID specified in a
>> "search" command.
>>
>> In order to investigate, can you
>> - report the menu entry code for the SD card system in
>> /boot/grub/grub.cfg (the one from the system on the hard drive owning
>> GRUB, not the one on the SD card) ;
> 
> On theory "too much better than too little" I see:
> 
> ### BEGIN /etc/grub.d/20_linux_xen ###
> 
> ### END /etc/grub.d/20_linux_xen ###

Wild shot of the blind helping the half blind here.

If the uuid is correct but if sda and sdb are reversed the wrong
partition is found on the crossed uuid.
I couldn't reproduce it myself but there had been a couple of instances
while messing with usb-mem-sticks and installing grub to the stick as if
it was a real disk, that this happened.  Booting from the bios command
to choose between hdd or usb seemed more consistent than when bios was
adjusted to automatically try to boot from usb if it existed before
trying the hdd.  I don't know whether your setup can relate.  To make
matters worse when the usb installed grub was crossed and the hdd became
sdb I updated grub-pc which goes through the whole procedure of seeking
installed systems on all drives and updating the usb-installed grub to
where now it would seek hd installed systems in sdb!  So now the correct
booting order would not work and the default primary installed debian
was not found on sda1 as it did not exist on the hd.

So, I am speculating such crossing may have taken place between store
and home that produced the mistake, sda and sdb were reversed.  Now if
you have 1 hdd and 2 usb drives/mem-sticks things can get really messy
as grub is silly enough to think this is a fixed order of things.  As
you unplug sdb and reboot sdc has now become sdb even though it was
never moved.  But how did you install something on the usbdisk?  Was it
from a live usb-stick?  If that stick is gone then your installed grub
thinks that the HD is the usb/live stick that installed debian.

I hope this makes some sense to someone.  Does a usb memory stick really
have an MBR?  It may act like it.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

"keep rocking in the non-free world" Neilznotyoung

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

Lisi Reisz:
> You do realise that Ron is the OP of this thread, and presumably even more 
> new 
> that yourself?

Are you luring me down another irrelevant to the issue path?
If you did not notice, instead of (me) being a smart-rear-end I already
responded specifically to the OP with the 2 packages 8168-9 that relate
to his generalized question of 8111*.  If you are correcting me about my
explanation of non-free "firmware" and lack of specificity I can
understand, but fail to see it.

Can you explain to all of us what is your specific problem with me, as
you are avoiding the issue itself and trying to find a different tangent
to be right about.

I don't know what is your definition of organization, in response to
your comment

>  the delusion that there is an organisation called "Debian"

Correct me if I am wrong, weren't you the one sending me the links for
the constitution and hierarchy?  That constitutes a hierarchical
organization.  Does a community have a hierarchy, not without a communal
constitution it doesn't.  (hence my signature of who died and made you
boss).

Whether it can, or will not, respond seems to be exactly what I was
explaining to the OP.  Being irresponsive does not make the fact, that
it is an organization, my illusion.  Nor am I saying I truly expect it
to respond to me or anyone.  The call is open (and free) to respond to
criticism "with logical arguments" which I am willing to recognize and
accept if they existed.  Otherwise there is no organization or community
that will moderate the criticism.  It is already public domain.

> Lisi

>This is one of those (few) times when it is a pity that this list
>isn't moderated.

Purely illogical sequence!  You are not making sense, you are avoiding
the issue, and desperately beg to have me respond to your requests to
shut up.  I don't know what to do.  Help me.

The easiest way to have someone respond when they don't care to continue
something is to bring up out of context, false, and illogical comments
about them.  I promise to be quiet if you stop this out of context
illogical commenting.  You have not added 1cent in the issue.

I am getting so desperate for any responses I am imagining some of my
own.  ie..

(it takes so much effort and workhours to edit open and free firmware
that exist and work in Deb8 that it is not worth the little demand for
them, so they are dropped in Deb9.  But if NVIDIA gets their non-free
code public tomorrow for their latest supergadget for gamers that work
is weel worth the while to be available in Debian 9 and Sid.)

That would have been a logical argument and response to the criticism.
IF IT WERE TRUE!

Or, someone of those for 2 decade experts in Debian could have implied
(that it is easy and possible to just lock the firmware from Jessie to
Stretch and modify its source to make it run yourself, or something!)
Which would have defeated the previous argument if it were true!

But then there is Joe's response that I interpret as 

naahhh..  I will not do you that favor to interpret here!


Peace my brothers and sisters ...


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

"keep rocking in the non-free world" Neilznotyoung

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

Ron Bales:
> Yeah just hope'n someone could get a line in

This is an English users list, please translate hope'n for us dear!

Old timers ganging up against the newbie is the oldest trick on the book
to avoid responding to criticism.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

"keep rocking in the non-free world" Neilznotyoung

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

Nicolas George:
> L'octidi 28 germinal, an CCXXV, GiaThnYgeia a écrit :
>> Don't expect "Debian" to respond to you, it is like talking to the Borg
> 
> You realize Debian is not a person, right?

You realize GiaThnYgeia is not a person either, right?

I do relaize that there may be practical/financial barriers for Debian
not to have official spokespeople speaking for Debian and as Debian, but
this reality should not dismiss any and all criticism.  Political
responsibility lies on the organization to respond to criticism or allow
it to rest as valid and unanswered.  Of course you, as an outsider,
anyone, can respond to criticism and defeat it with a better argument.
In such an occasion this criticism is dismissed as stronger
counterarguments now exist.

This is the very fundamental principle of a "free" society.  It is the
fundation of the "non-free" society to disrupt any and all arguments,
dismiss criticism, and enforce silence by force.

In the case of Lisi's efforts, trying to deviate from a real issue and
criticism and derail the whole critical argument, as the result of an
irrelevant fault, is irrelevant itself to the criticism.  It does not
matter if Lisi heard of Debian yesterday or is the original writer of
unix/linux/debian.  The response was political and illogical, and a
cheap trick to deviate from an issue.

Criticism when is constructive it is intended to improve on the existing
not to undermine it or hurt it.  Only when Debian can not be undermined
by any criticism and all of it is answered by logical arguments will we
be talking of not just a good system, but the best.

And despite which of us here says what I just said, we, as GiaThnYgeia,
stand behind this argument.

PS  The reference to the Borg if perceived as a negative
characterization it would be based on your (plural) bias and perception.
 Beyond the debate of good and evil, what's wrong with the Borg anyway?
Just because the Evil Empire turned against it as a whole does not make
the Borg bad! ;)

The rest of yas, why don't you chill out a bit, unless you are looking
for a reaction to black-list me off "your" list.  If you can't respond
to criticism just be quiet then!  If you feel Debian is better off
without me just argue that point and if you are right I promise to
remain silent, which is the same as reading the list off of its archive.

PS2  If you missed what the point of criticism was let me know and I
will repeat.  Just snipping text off of a response (and context) will
not make it go away.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

"keep rocking in the non-free world" Neilznotyoung

Re: Jessie for Udoo X86?

Eduard Bloch:
> Hallo,
> * Larry Dighera [Sun, Apr 16 2017, 09:27:46PM]:
>>
>> The new Udoo X86 boards have just begun to ship: . 
>>
>> Is anyone able to provide a link to the 64-bit Debian Jessie USB/SD
>> installation ISO/img?
> 
> Did you try the regular installer from USB stick already?

https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current-live/amd64/iso-hybrid/

If live runs well chances are that you can install it

there is Puppy Linux among others that run entirely on RAM, once loaded
no disk is required, ideally they will run as long as there is a
continuous power supply.  Given enough ram you can modify most linux to
run this way, but some are designed and modified specifically saving you
the trouble.

> Data sheet indicates that it supports "All Linux Flavors for x86". Which
> means that it's probably usual Intel hardware inside. It might lack a
> few drivers for recent hardware revisions but you could install a
> kernel from jessie-backports in that case.

Interesting and seems more potent than the raspberry system.  But if
size did not matter so damn much for less money you can get a decent
USFF box and throw the box away and pretend you are building from
scratch.  I suspect the quality of some older USFF is higher.  Yes the
processor and cooling aparatus is a bit bulky ... but it depends on the
use and available space/weight requirement.



-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

"keep rocking in the non-free world" Neilznotyoung

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

Don't expect "Debian" to respond to you, it is like talking to the Borg
Individuals will speak of Debian, they may be inside or outside Debian,
but Debian only speaks through official directives in its one and only
web page.  No dialog, no comments, no responses.  It is like planning to
have coffee with the Borg!  If anyone speaks as Debian don't trust what
he/she says as anyone else will say that is her/his personal opinion.
The BORG!

Ctrl-F 811

Ron Bales:
> Why do you not include the drivers for RTL8111 I have not used Mint for
> years because the network never worked I found the drivers and installed
> them but way to much trouble I was getting ready to give up for good and
> found the instructions to install. The network works fine in Ubuntu?
> 

Here is what the Borg says:

R8168-dkms
dkms source for the r8168 network driver

r8168 is the Linux device driver released for RealTek RTL8111B/RTL8168B,
RTL8111/RTL8168, RTL8111C/RTL8111CP/RTL8111D(L),
RTL8168C/RTL8111DP/RTL8111E,
RTL8168E/RTL8111F/RTL8411, RTL8111G/RTL8111GUS/RTL8411B(N), RTL8118AS
Gigabit Ethernet controllers with PCI-Express interface.

This driver should only be used for devices not yet supported by the
in-kernel driver r8169. Please see the README.Debian for instructions how
to report bugs against r8169 that made it necessary to use r8168-dkms.

Installation of the r8168-dkms package will disable the in-kernel r8169
module. To re-enable r8169, the r8168-dkms package must be purged.

This package provides the dkms source code for the r8168 kernel modules.
Kernel source or headers are required to compile these modules.
--



You seem to have barked up the wrong tree:




-
firmware-realtek is a bit different:

Binary firmware for Realtek wired/wifi/BT adapters

This package contains the binary firmware for Realtek Ethernet, wifi and
Bluetooth adapters supported by various drivers.

Contents:
 * Realtek RTL8192E boot code (RTL8192E/boot.img)
 * Realtek RTL8192E init data (RTL8192E/data.img)
 * Realtek RTL8192E main code (RTL8192E/main.img)
 * Realtek RTL8192EE Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8192ee_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8812AE Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8812ae_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8761A Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8761a_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8821A Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8821a_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192EU Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8192eu_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8723AU rev A Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8723a_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8723BU rev B Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8723b_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8822B Bluetooth config (rtl_bt/rtl8822b_config.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8822B Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8822b_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8105E-1 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8105e-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8106E-1 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8106e-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8106E-2 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8106e-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8107E-1 firmware, version 0.0.2 (rtl_nic/rtl8107e-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8107E-2 firmware, version 0.0.2 (rtl_nic/rtl8107e-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8111D-1/RTL8168D-1 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8168d-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8111D-2/RTL8168D-2 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8168d-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168E-1 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8168e-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168E-2 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8168e-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168E-3 firmware, version 0.0.4 (rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168F-1 firmware, version 0.0.5 (rtl_nic/rtl8168f-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168F-2 firmware, version 0.0.4 (rtl_nic/rtl8168f-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168G-1 firmware, version 0.0.3 (rtl_nic/rtl8168g-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168G-2 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8168g-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168G-3 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8168g-3.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168H-1 firmware, version 0.0.2 (rtl_nic/rtl8168h-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168H-2 firmware, version 0.0.2 (rtl_nic/rtl8168h-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8402-1 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8402-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8411-1 firmware, version 0.0.3 (rtl_nic/rtl8411-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8411-2 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8411-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8188EE firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8188efw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8188EU firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8188eufw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CE/RTL8188CE firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8192cfw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CE/RTL8188CE B-cut firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cfwU_B.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8188CE A-cut firmware, version 4.816.2011
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cfwU.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CU/RTL8188CU UMC A-cut firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cufw_A.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CU/RTL8188CU UMC B-cut firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cufw_B.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CU/RTL8188CU TMSC firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cufw_TMSC.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CU/RTL8188CU fallback firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cufw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192DE firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8192defw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192EE wifi firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8192eefw.bin)
 * Realtek RTl8192EU firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8192eu_nic.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192SE/RTL8191SE firmware, version

Re: Almost all gpg2 operations hang after upgrade to stretch/testing

2017-04-13 Thread GiaThnYgeia



John Hasler:
> I see no evidence that it does, nor do I see any reason why it would
> bother.  At least 99% of its users accept the cookies and scripts.  Why
> would it care about a few weirdos like me given that it wouldn't work
> very well anyway?

It is reporting on weirdos like you that paves its way to alot of
uncharted territory of invasive identification.  IOW weirdo IPs are of
interest.
Have you tried startpage.com  They sell "secure" email service but it
seems that is about the only thing they sell.  A bit of a pain but may
be worth your weirdo while.  They search google for you and provide you
with safe links of documents and media.


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

2017-04-13 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Catherine Gramze:
> /snip...

I did not ask for advice on what to do, we are discussing the freedom of
choice, remember?

> Debian is not in the business of catering to the special needs of conspiracy 
> theorists,
> but of looking to a technologically developing and progressing future and 
> making it ...

I'd say pushing it not making it

>  The decisions the developers and 
> project manager make are the best decisions they can make within the
> constraints ..

What business of catering is Debian in?
Technological developing and progressing future was what we live in.

Where are we?  Back in the non-central-western-european-middle-ages?
What you are saying what big oligarchic industrialist dictate is what
Debian should comply with.  Those are the constrains.  To accept such
constrains does not incorporate a value or principles judgement.

Then Debian-hierarchy should skip all this open and free moralization it
plasters all over the place and just stick to non-free industrialists'
puppets they have become, those decision makers, not debian!

Debian is all about choice!  It is just like claiming the same to the
shoppers in the wal-mart racks, at this stage.

> Cathy

What is your interest in defending the authorities of this hierarchy?
Are they hiring or are you already in?  In this case you shouldn't be on
the "users" list.

kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

2017-04-13 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Joel Rees:
> kAt, write a novel.
> 
> My dad used to tell me, if I wanted to change things, I'd have to
> change them from the inside. It's a poor expression of the principle
> because you can't get "inside" far enough without X, Y, or Z, and they
> all make it very difficult to change things once you are inside.

Once you are inside you are too pre-occupied in protecting what you are
inside of.  Change will never come from inside.

Joe:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:11:30 -0500
> David Wright  wrote:
>
>> BTW I was surprised not to see mention of the Ken Thompson hack
>> in what I snipped.
>
> Old stuff. I'd expect every significant compiler on the planet to have
> been compromised by one government or another long ago.

It makes no longer a difference, or is it worthwhile to distinguish,
between corporate and gov.  It is one long chain of domination, no
borders, no nations, no private/public separation.  One huge system of
control.  But minds can unplug themselves of the system of illusion.
There should be no need for security in a free world/system.  Isn't this
where unix started from?  No locks, no doors, no borders.  Instead we
are preoccupied in drawing 2 dimensional limits under the eye in the 3rd
dimension.

Multilingual wikipedia is probably the only thing worth saving from this
civilization.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Maybe I started my explaining at the wrong end of the thread and I get
reactions on a personal level about what I am and whether I have the
right or reason to complaint.

So I'll start from scratch.

Let's say we have market players A B and C whose primary clients are
government agencies that have X-needs.  Then we have minute competitors
D E and F, and even more minute players who consult, write code to make
it all work, and abide by this market.  Due to their clientele ABC can
dump stuff on the market to keep DEF at the verge of destruction.  You
see if you know ahead of time that 30% of your production would be sold
at 200% profit, you can sell 70% at 0,01% profit.

Client-X has "needs" that must absolutely be met or there will be no
free lunch, as some 4x-billions spent on hardware that has a market
worth of x-billions.  To satisfy those needs A,B,C, have lots of
non-free work to do.  This work ends up everywhere on the non-free
market.  All a submissive puppet has to do is abide by the market rule.
"It is what puts bread on the table" and all submissive puppets bless
this bread.  Don't dare deny the blessings of the bread putter.

Now, let's say we need a complex hard to audit central "services"
controller to cover up (for some years at least) of all the dirty tricks
ABC have employed before some convicted felon running internationally
from the law blows some whistle and till that whistle is heard loud
enough to call this round of trickery off.  Then some virtuous
corporation comes out and says I blew that whistle, after the fact.

The "choice" of going cheap on ancient hardware is that you all knowing
expert "technical" but not "political" folk are really clueless of what
those non-free eight-core gadgets you port your code on contain.  It
would take years of testing and listening to identify where those
machines leak from.  Geewhiz, most of you can not even swear you can
tell what Ipv6 is all about, yet!   Do you have android anonymizing
systems and packages?  Tell that to their engineers that have leaked
that it is impossible to do so.  7billion people around earth have self
imposed a gps chip and monitoring system in their pocket 24hrs a day.
Even government and corporate servers are suspect of leaking stuff.  It
is a "heartbleeding" situation.

Now, is systemd a step on the right or the wrong direction in auditing
security?  What do security minded experts say and how did their project
leaders vote?  Don't listen to them, they are always paranoid, they like
morse radio code.

I arrest my case your honors, and I will take the rest of my science
fiction scenario elsewhere, but if I wanted lubuntu or gentoo or devuan
I would have been there long ago.  It just so happens that torproject,
tails, among other good projects are in bed with debian not antiX and
other systems.

After all, to say "I am a technical guy not a political one" is a very
politically loaded statement.  Dr Strangelove was a technical guy, not
political at all.  It is those types you have to watch out for.

kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Jonathan Dowland:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 04:40:00PM +0000, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> As for the other post you commented on with the same attitude I would
>> have to say that getting technical in comparing sysv with competing
>> technologies does not answer the political part of the decision making.
>> It seems as this part is what irritated people not the technical aspects
>> of it.  Unless there are those that pretend the decision making process
>> was solely on technical merits.
> 
> The decision to switch the default init to systemd was made by the Tech
> Committee. You can read the history of that decision here
> 
>   https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708
> 
> There's also a related General Resolution that was written, adapted and
> voted on by Debian members. The full details of that are here
> 
>   https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003
> 
> As for "who", 483 Debian Developers voted, as listed here
> 
>   https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003_voters.txt
> 
> All this stuff is in the open for anyone to read and catch up on. I
> hope you find it enlightening.

All I read is where the money goes that get donated "officially" to
debian.  Let me ask about the cost of servers/repositories for all the
non-free packages.  Whose decision goes there?
Do you folk mean to tell me that at this point Debian does not have the
power to influence industry by selecting to support only hardware with
open/free firmware?  Isn't it superficial to say we are "for" free but
we run hundreds of servers supplying "users" with non-free stuff?
What, the customer is a priority?  80% of users would have no support
running around with a portable device and some wifi that incorporates
chips from a tiny oligopoly?  Are we talking about meritocracy or
marketing?  It is a very different approach you know.

I suspect such decision making has a value!  We don't live in a free
world.  How many did you say?  483 developers, from how many contributors?

Ohh I am enlightened alright!
Show me the money honey, and save me the "constitution" preaching.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Ric Moore:
> On 04/12/2017 12:40 PM, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> David Wright:
>>>> Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness?
>>>
>>> If you don't like it, you're free to look elsewhere for a distribution
>>> that better suits you.
>>
>> Are you mr.Debian?  Under what authority are you telling me to either
>> shut up or leave?  What makes you more Debian than me?  Why don't you
>> leave if you don't like criticism?
> 
> 
> Simple, you are admittedly new. Perhaps it would be prudent to survey
> the issues, study up some and then ask ~good~ detailed questions. Then
> act on the resolutions provided you or answer with more details when
> requested. 

I have been doing some research, I have also managed to break and
restore a few systems trying to run them without systemd.  Possibly a
harder task than I thought it might be.  Possibly unnecessarily complex,
I don't know.
But here is a good source of background on part of the issue.
http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/09/05/0/

> Linux has always been a "meritocracy". You earn your chops by
> being a productive member for a longish period of time, who consistently
> helps others with good solutions.

Save me the religious preaching, I am an atheist.  GWBjr, Trump,
Erdowan, and Putin were elected by slim majority of approved voters.
Stalin and Hitler ranked much higher in the meritocracy scale, nearly
unanimous decisions by their peers got them elected.  It must be that
Jimmy Hoffa was the only one that cheated to get elected.

> You have done none of that. You might
> be better served using Ubuntu. Debian is admittedly more tricky and not
> really suited to someone new. Ubuntu might serve your needs way better
> and their users are used to holding hands with a new fish. :) Ric

Why don't you try ubuntu and tell us what it is like.  Do I strike you
like a person needing to hold hands with anyone?

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

David Wright:
>> Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness?
> 
> If you don't like it, you're free to look elsewhere for a distribution
> that better suits you.

Are you mr.Debian?  Under what authority are you telling me to either
shut up or leave?  What makes you more Debian than me?  Why don't you
leave if you don't like criticism?
If there is reason for madness, in which I accept I am new to, I will
have to discover it.  Saying that simply madness is normal and whoever
does not like it should leave doesn't justify madness.
If you like to contribute to my lack of understanding and possibly
unsubstantiated criticism, help me understand the hierarchy.  Who, and
how are they are selected, make the decisions and how do they relate to
those that do the work, and how do they all relate to those who for 2
decades have been employing the system and feedback with problems and bugs.
Because what is discussed on this thread to me sounds as those who by
majority have used the system (mostly for commercial large scale server
applications) and are probably the number one source of bugs that feed
development did not have much of a say on the direction taken.  The
direction was dictated from above and developers went to work according
to that direction.
Am I wrong?  I don't hear newbies single machine users having much of an
issue with systemd, but people whose work for many years was based in
fine-tuning other init systems seem to be having issues in adopting to
this new status-quo whether they like it or not.

> Cheers,
> David.

As for the other post you commented on with the same attitude I would
have to say that getting technical in comparing sysv with competing
technologies does not answer the political part of the decision making.
It seems as this part is what irritated people not the technical aspects
of it.  Unless there are those that pretend the decision making process
was solely on technical merits.
That's where the definition of "free" comes in, which you seem to be
having a hard time understanding.  I'd say go back and read the policy
and principles of Debian.  The realities of industry and market is not
part of what I understand as free, on the contrary I find them
contradictory.

cheers

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

2017-04-11 Thread GiaThnYgeia

xxx:
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:21 AM, GiaThnYgeia
>> Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness?
> 
> Moving the goalposts always generates a bit of madness. Whether this
> time is turning out more so than previous times I'll leave for others
> to comment on.

Moving the goalposts is a decision that weighs on those exact
individuals that made it, not the entire community.

Let me ask this encyclopedic question.  Would newer server hardware
benefit more from the anticipated sysv development or from the systemd?
I suspect that a 4 year old server had a 20% capability improvement with
systemd development while a 1 year old server had a 40% improvement,
despite the fact that the 1 year old one was 4 times as capable as the
older one.  With sysV i suspect the development would maybe affect 24%,
on both.  So was the choice made on the basis of exploiting ever newer
hardware or to continue the human support of those employing Debian for
years?  Disregarding community and bending over to industry, that is!

I have no real data to prove this, I am only suspecting this to be true.

Sometimes sticking to principles and protecting the survivability of the
organization becomes contradictory.  What is meant by "free" is getting
hazier and hazier.  It is now a gray area of market logic.
The question then becomes, as has always been, whose side are you on
boys?  And when I say boys I mean the decision making few that usually
are boys anyway, unlike the woman that wrote the song.


kAt


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

2017-04-11 Thread GiaThnYgeia



Felix Miata:
> My opinion is that people who want ancient hardware to continue to be
> supported for the longest possible period of time must participate in
> the development phase by testing on the very hardware that they want to
> stay working when it's hardware that developers either no longer have or
> no longer have motivation to use, and they must do so throughout
> development, not only in the final weeks before release is expected.

I'll stick to the "people who want ancient hardware" and ask whether you
perceive those people as having a choice to "want ancient" hardware or
whether this is "all" they have.  Do you anticipate those same people to
be able to start their computing career in developing systems?
Which relates to that world do we want Debian to prevail.  The "free"
world or the "non-free" world in which we live in?

> When a problem is found, it needs to be timely reported according to
> distro policy in the proper place and manner. Reports in the debian-user
> mailing list are insufficient to fulfill this purpose.

By who?  By the person who just lost all graphical access to the system?
By a bug-reporting system that I have yet to see ever working?
Is a person installing debian expected to know how to access and
communicate on the command screen of the -recovery mode?

> You, not we. I'm not here to discuss any policy other than whether this
> thread's content is suitably located, and with this post I'm finished
> with this sub-thread.

Me too ... dealing with such responses

> Did including iomem=relaxed on your cmdline solve your problem, or did
> it not?

I wouldn't know, the person for which I installed Debian for will not
dare switch to Stretch after this experience, will not even talk about
it.  Did you read about the person who used zsh as a login shell and
upgraded Jessie to testing and got locked out of his system because zsh
vanished?  Good thing he knew how to deal with that crisis.

> If yes, say so.

Are you talking to me?  I am one of this privileged well off people to
have hardware that can run Stretch and Sid and all kinds of things.
Send some snail-mail to the less privileged who have lost access to the
net to ask them.

> Supporting ancient hardware forever is not going to happen.

A 2.33Mhz Celeron pc is by no means ancient compared to the Debian claims.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

2017-04-11 Thread GiaThnYgeia

deloptes:
> songbird wrote:
> 
>> did you check /var/log/Xorg.0.log?
> 
> I doubt he does know about it

You doubt or you know?
I knew about it but I did not check it.  There are many logs on /var/log
and its subdirectories.  Can I interpret 3% of what they say?  No!  Do I
need to in order to install and run a system instead of mswin?  I hope not!

Once the final re-installation was done with Jessie what purpose would
checking the log in a functional system?  The log of the system that
would not result in a functional graphic display would probably show
something meaningful.

I did not think this way, I just thought the display itself being old
and of low resolution had come to an altered default resolution that it
could not handle.  I have seen this on other debian based distros, where
the live or installer resolution was so off that you couldn't see half
the installation window.  The debian installers have generally faired
well in this respect.  Although I have had successful installations with
TV screens and parts of the Debian installer off the frame.

Why would a functional system in Jessie be allowed to be broken by a
simple upgrade without at least a warning.  "Your hardware is not
supported by testing/stretch.  If you continue with the upgrade you may
lose graphic functionality of the system".  Shouldn't the same people
who made the decision not to continue the support be responsible to make
sure a patch exists in Jessie that adds such a warning to the user?
Once deleting and reinstalling various display managers and failing, I
scrapped it and started with a new Jessie.

Your excuse for "everything is just fine" holds no water at all for
anyone who does not know of Xorg.0.log unless you really think that
anyone has memorized the Debian administrator's manual in its entirety
BEFORE they attempt an installation.

But this is a users discussion list, not developers.  All we need is a
functional system to do web-browsing, word-processing, database for home
or store use, and a card game.  USERS are not those who are expected to
diagnose and repair developers' broken systems!

And please refrain from giving me a "testing" not "stable" speech as it
is not May 2015, it is almost 2 years later under a long standing
freeze.  And don't dare imply that in stable stretch issues like this
will be taken care of without substantial evidence for this claim.

https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/graph-release.png
https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/

Look at this misleading chart, Jessie is blue, Stretch is green, which
would you pick to start your experience with Linux?  The neglected
Jessie or the hot off the press Stretch?  Stretch should really be
Jessie 8.8  but 8.8 should not break your display management.

kAtrinity

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Please excuse the intrusion, on another thread Felix Miata says:
Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok
on Jessie

> Debian-user is a user support forum, not a developer forum:
> For bug fixes and policy modifications debian-user is the wrong place
> for more than passing discussion. I suggest other avenues:

Ask me why I think the two threads may be related

to...@tuxteam.de:
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 04:13:48PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:
>> Le primidi 21 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit :
>>> SysV init is broken because it has no process monitoring? No.
>>> Process monitoring isn't in its scope.
> 
>> Your other arguments make sense, but sorry, this one does not. The
>> process with PID one is the only immortal process on the system, and
>> adopts all orphan processes. For that reason, any kind of process
>> monitoring, if it needs reliability, must be rooted in PID 1. And in
>> turn, that makes process monitoring in scope for any project that aims
>> to implement a program for PID 1.
> 
> Runit works. Think about how :-)
> 
> (And yes, double-forking trickery fools it. Don't do that then. Most
> daemons have a command line option for that, and those that dont...
> after all, you have to "fix" daemons to let them participate in systemd's
> socket activation party too, don't you?
> 
> regards
> -- t

The way I see things is that there are long-time server administrators
who refuse to leave their pre-systemd platforms no matter what.
There are "users" on Jessie where Jessie has 4 times the open bug
reports than testing.  For a second month under freeze not much
development can take place in unstable, as it is really tomorrow's
testing.  All Stretch seems to be is Jessie with linux4 solving 75% of
its bugs, meanwhile the current old-stable will no longer be supported.
Meamwhile, there are critical bugs still open on testing from last year.

Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness?


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

Felix Miata:
> GiaThnYgeia composed on 2017-04-10 14:32 (UTC):
> 
>> you are responding technically in solving a technical problem that
>> I presented. For this I thank you.  What I am now saying is that it is
>> unacceptable as a practice.  At least there should be a patch installed
>> of listed unsupported hardware that once detected during upgrade it
>> reconfigures the boot manager with your suggested modification.  Or
>> refuses the upgrade on the premises of "no longer supported" hardware.
> 
> Debian-user is a user support forum, not a developer forum:
> 
> Debian Mailing Lists
> debian-user
> Community assistance and support for Debian users.
> Support for Debian users who speak English.
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/

1st of all, does this mean you have no opinion on the issue?
2nd does this mean that nobody here should express an opinion about it?
I beg to differ.

> For bug fixes and policy modifications debian-user is the wrong place
> for more than passing discussion. I suggest other avenues:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/ mailing list
> https://www.debian.org/Bugs/ bug tracker
> irc://freenode/#debian-next IRC
> http://forums.debian.net/ Debian development forum

I am not a developer, nor will I pretend to be one.  But in the strict
sense of a "user" I have yet to see anyone here be a user.  User in the
sense of using someone's administered system without any administrative
rights.
Nor are we talking about a real bug, but a conscious decision to stop
supporting some hardware that the unsuspecting victim may not be alerted
about.  Digging deep into some bug report of a year ago "implying" that
some hardware may no longer be supported, does not constitute an alert.
It appears more of a passive-aggressive excuse of an "I told you so" in
the fine print.

Furthermore, among developers, for ages (decades in this case), there is
a closed culture developing over and over again, where the status-quo is
defended without addressing an issue.  Whatever is going on is just fine
with us (developers) and if you don't like it, tough!

What would you think will happen if I take my case to the developers
list, me an outsider who dares not to understand what a kernel command
mode is.  Now if you are a developer or one is reading this feel free to
transfer this criticism to the club.

If Debian has become a foundation and a base for other systems to be
based on, a developers' system, I think it needs to be more emphasized
on the very first page of debian.org  that this system is not for
the average user, but it is directed as a base for developers to create
systems.  Which to me seems as a shift of policy of what Debian was.

Should I repeat the initial problem?
Install Debian8.7.1, log in, everything is fine.
Update/Upgrade the system.
Reboot   ... everything nice.
Switch from jessie to testing
Update/upgrade ... still OK.
Reboot
Black screen no prompt!

You say  it is a known issue and a conscious decision.
You have no opinion on the matter!  It is how the cookie crumbles.
Tell that to the person staring at a blank screen without any feedback
or knowledge on what to do.
What do you really expect the X0org.log to look like and how helpful
would this be to someone with a single machine?



-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

Felix Miata:
> GiaThnYgeia composed on 2017-04-10 10:18 (UTC):
>> Felix Miata:
>> Would this be IT?
>>1 sudo nano /etc/default/grub
>>2 GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet iomem=relaxed"
>>3 sudo update-grub
> 
> It would be #1 below, the step to take after proving that iomem=relaxed
> is necessary for your Prosavage8 S3 Graphics gfxchip to work with 4.8 or
> newer kernels.

>>> 1-reconfiguring the bootloader after a successful boot (usually via
>>> changes to /etc/default/grub, then having grub write a new
>>> /boot/grub/grub.cfg file with grub-mkconfig), or

Again, I appreciate you helping me trying to help someone to be
introduced to debian but those three lines above (1-2-3) do not equal
those below (1-).  In your understanding and knowledge base maybe, but
not everyone who may be trying to use Debian instead of a non-free
system will see them as equal.  People watching the weather forecast do
not need to take 3 semesters of thermodynamics and meteorology to
understand whether they should take an umbrella to work or not.  Are you
saying they shouldn't watch the weather forecast on Debian?

It may be too early to speak, but once the debian-installer-9 (Stretch
is released) if this is the outcome for "ANY" system I think my
constructive criticism of being "experimental" will be well founded.
One should not have to do this to get a "stable" system installed!

>> "If it works"
> 
>> This is the key term here, unless you are an experienced
>> developer/programmer Debian or Linux is not for you!  To the vast
>> majority of people using a) browser 60% b) wordprocessor/office 15% c)
>> multimedia software 20% d) some pluginnplay software 4% e) misc. 1%
>> linux is virtually useless/dangerous!
> 
>> If 32bit systems are no longer supported it should be stated with bold
>> headlines.  The fact that somewhere in the fine print there is an alert
>> that "some" hardware may cause the upgrade from 8 to 9 to break your
>> system, that actually takes "some knowledge" to interpret as such, is
>> unacceptable.
> 
> This is not so much about 32 bit as it is about old gfx hardware for
> which drivers have not been adapted to the KMS model on which more
> modern gfxchips depend and succeed.

I see no bold headlines saying "this New Release of Debian may break
your system, better stick to Jessie unless you have new hardware".  To
which you may respond it is not Debian's fault but Linux4.8+.  !!!
Stick to 4.7 then, damn it!  But the security people disagree.

AND, Yes, but is anything preventing someone from installing Stretch and
breaking a good system, aka Jessie!  And if the problem lies internally
within the linux4.8+ why isn't it booting up to a graphics login screen
with linux3.16, the same that was left from Jessie?

Again you are responding technically in solving a technical problem that
I presented. For this I thank you.  What I am now saying is that it is
unacceptable as a practice.  At least there should be a patch installed
of listed unsupported hardware that once detected during upgrade it
reconfigures the boot manager with your suggested modification.  Or
refuses the upgrade on the premises of "no longer supported" hardware.

I don't think too many people will put up with a broken system, trying
to use lynx or emacs to find or get responses as yours to fix a system
that a few hours before was running fine.

Should a live system based on Stretch have the same problem?
In other words, when a Debian-Stretch-9.0-Lxde-i386.iso is released will
it boot on this same hardware?  I wouldn't think so.  But the
Jessie8.7.1-live-i386 run fine.

The questioning is not directed to you trying to help but to those that
make such decisions to allow such things to happen.  If editing grub or
lilo and adding a line fixes the installation it should be done
automatically, not allow a broken system and a user trying to find out
what has happened.  A notice would be nice "your system must now reboot
to modify the installation based on your no-longer-supported hardware".

I think I have done my share of reporting and complaining to let the
issue rest for "higher authorities" to decide whether something should
be done.  I don't think gfx hdw were produced in limited numbers, I
think there are thousands of them out.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie


https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=847154
>   * From Linux 4.8, several changes have been made in the kernel
> configuration to 'harden' the system, i.e. to mitigate security bugs.
> Some changes may cause legitimate applications to fail, and can be
> reverted by run-time configuration:
> - On 64-bit PCs (amd64), the old 'virtual syscall' interface is
>   disabled.  This breaks (e)glibc 2.13 and earlier.  To re-enable it,
>   set the kernel parameter: vsyscall=emulate
> - On most architectures, the /dev/mem device can no longer be used to
>   access devices that also have a kernel driver.  This breaks dosemu
>   and some old user-space graphics drivers.  To allow this, set the
>   kernel parameter: iomem=relaxed
> - The kernel log is no longer readable by unprivileged users.  To
>   allow this, set the sysctl: kernel.dmesg_restrict=0
>
> >  -- Ben Hutchings <b...@decadent.org.uk>  Sat, 29 Oct 2016 02:05:32 +0100
>
> $

GiaThnYgeia:
> Felix Miata:
>> GiaThnYgeia composed on 2017-04-09 15:16 (UTC):
>>
>>> Felix Miata composed:
>>
>>>> IOW, it is suggested that iomem=relaxed may need to be included on
>>>> kernel cmdline for the old user-space xserver-xorg-video-savage driver
>>>> to work with your gfxchip in Stretch.
>>
>>> Thank you for the help in answering the puzzle, but how is a
>>> semi-i-literate person able to translate this into a command/procedure
>>> that will achieve such a thing?  IOW, I am clueless at this point of
>>> what a kernel cmdline is.  I suspect it is a parameter in some file that
>>> builds up the kernel during boot ... but where is it and how do I add
>>> this command/parameter in it?
>>
>> "kernel cmdline" is also known as "Kernel Command-Line". This is the
>> group of parameters that are provided to the kernel and init system by
>> the bootloader as a component of using its menu. See
>> ‘GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX’ and following on
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/Simple-configuration.html
>>
>> for more detail as pertains to the bootloader Stretch normally installs.
> 
> Would this be IT?
> 
> sudo nano /etc/default/grub
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet iomem=relaxed"
> sudo update-grub
> 
> As there is no term iomem in any debian installation I searched on the
> net to find where and how does it relates to the kcl nor are any explicit
> instructions on the link you send me.  I appreciate your help but
> imagine how much help would that be to one having such a machine and
> making the mistake to break the system to the almost stable Debian.
> 
> Advice?  Do not ever change much in your system withour having a
> functional live system you can boot and find instructions to help solve
> your broken system!  In this case we have a system with a 2.4Ghz Celeron
> not being supported by Debian9  let us not beat around the bush
> about it!
> 
>> The cmdline last applied can be view by 'cat /proc/cmdline'.
>>
>> Alternatively, the cmdline last applied before Xorg was started can be
>> found by viewing the first several lines of Xorg.0.log.
>>
>> What goes onto the cmdline can be configured either by
>>
>> 1-reconfiguring the bootloader after a successful boot (usually via
>> changes to /etc/default/grub, then having grub write a new
>> /boot/grub/grub.cfg file with grub-mkconfig), or
>>
>> 2-while the bootloader is showing its menu after POST has completed, to
>> make a change applicable to the boot about to be started only (usually
>> by hitting the "e" key while the menu is onscreen".
>>
>> #2 is what I was suggesting you first try to see if iomem=relaxed can
>> solve the problem you have using your ProSavage8 S3 Graphics gfxchip. If
>> it works then you should apply method #1.
> 
> "If it works"
> 
> This is the key term here, unless you are an experienced
> developer/programmer Debian or Linux is not for you!  To the vast
> majority of people using a) browser 60% b) wordprocessor/office 15% c)
> multimedia software 20% d) some pluginnplay software 4% e) misc. 1%
> linux is virtually useless/dangerous!
> 
> If 32bit systems are no longer supported it should be stated with bold
> headlines.  The fact that somewhere in the fine print there is an alert
> that "some" hardware may cause the upgrade from 8 to 9 will break your
> system, that actually takes "some knowledge" to interpret as such, is
> unacceptable.
> 
> I understand that this is debian-testing but for the past month we are
> u

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

Felix Miata:
> GiaThnYgeia composed on 2017-04-09 15:16 (UTC):
> 
>> Felix Miata composed:
> 
>>> IOW, it is suggested that iomem=relaxed may need to be included on
>>> kernel cmdline for the old user-space xserver-xorg-video-savage driver
>>> to work with your gfxchip in Stretch.
> 
>> Thank you for the help in answering the puzzle, but how is a
>> semi-i-literate person able to translate this into a command/procedure
>> that will achieve such a thing?  IOW, I am clueless at this point of
>> what a kernel cmdline is.  I suspect it is a parameter in some file that
>> builds up the kernel during boot ... but where is it and how do I add
>> this command/parameter in it?
> 
> "kernel cmdline" is also known as "Kernel Command-Line". This is the
> group of parameters that are provided to the kernel and init system by
> the bootloader as a component of using its menu. See
> ‘GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX’ and following on
> https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/Simple-configuration.html
> 
> for more detail as pertains to the bootloader Stretch normally installs.

Would this be IT?

sudo nano /etc/default/grub
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet iomem=relaxed"
sudo update-grub

As there is no term iomem in any debian installation I searched on the
net to find where and how does it relate to the kcl nor are any explicit
instructions on the link you send me.  I appreciate your help but
imagine how much help would that be to one having such a machine and
making the mistake to break the system to the almost stable Debian.

Advice?  Do not ever change much in your system withour having a
functional live system you can boot and find instructions to help solve
your broken system!  In this case we have a system with a 2.4Ghz Celeron
not being supported by Debian9  let us not beat around the bush
about it!

> The cmdline last applied can be view by 'cat /proc/cmdline'.
> 
> Alternatively, the cmdline last applied before Xorg was started can be
> found by viewing the first several lines of Xorg.0.log.
> 
> What goes onto the cmdline can be configured either by
> 
> 1-reconfiguring the bootloader after a successful boot (usually via
> changes to /etc/default/grub, then having grub write a new
> /boot/grub/grub.cfg file with grub-mkconfig), or
> 
> 2-while the bootloader is showing its menu after POST has completed, to
> make a change applicable to the boot about to be started only (usually
> by hitting the "e" key while the menu is onscreen".
> 
> #2 is what I was suggesting you first try to see if iomem=relaxed can
> solve the problem you have using your ProSavage8 S3 Graphics gfxchip. If
> it works then you should apply method #1.

"If it works"

This is the key term here, unless you are an experienced
developer/programmer Debian or Linux is not for you!  To the vast
majority of people using a) browser 60% b) wordprocessor/office 15% c)
multimedia software 20% d) some pluginnplay software 4% e) misc. 1%
linux is virtually useless/dangerous!

If 32bit systems are no longer supported it should be stated with bold
headlines.  The fact that somewhere in the fine print there is an alert
that "some" hardware may cause the upgrade from 8 to 9 will break your
system, that actually takes "some knowledge" to interpret as such, is
unacceptable.

I understand that this is debian-testing but for the past month we are
under the impression this is stable any minute now after 2 years of testing.

My understanding from reading this about iomem=relaxed is that such
issues will not be addressed before it becomes stable.  Also by adding
this parameter into the kernel you are being "relaxed" about many other
things which exclude you from the "hardening" experience of the upgraded
system.  So by solving one bottleneck and getting a system to be
functional you may be under the illusion you are sharing the security
and stability issues with everyone else, which is now false.  It is
false because simply your stretch is not what everyone else is running.
And I see that people with much more recent 64bit hardware have had
problem recently, like when linux4.8 went to 4.9.

I now understand better why people are so hesitant in sticking with
Debian 6 or 7 even if it will no longer be supported except major
security issues.



Come to think about it, if there was a single package in a live system
or part of the installer that read your hardware in advance and told you
this and this piece of hardware which you have is not supported by this
Debian release you are about to install/upgrade.  DO NOT UPGRADE or do
so on your own risk of locating firmware to make it run.
IOW block and prohibit someone like me from making a fatal mistake of
breaking an otherwise fun

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

Sorry,
I made a mistake earlier and replied on the wrong thread (Re: [Stretch,
9.0] Installation failed to install net-tools (from scratch
installation)), here is the output again listed for reference, although
the riddle seems to be solved by Felix on this same thread.

Output at the bottom

GiaThnYgeia:
> See attached file for complete lshw of the failed stretch upgrade
> 
> Felix Miata:
>> GiaThnYgeia composed on 2017-04-04 18:22 (UTC):
>>
>>> Felix Miata:
>>
>>>> GiaThnYgeia composed on 2017-04-04 13:51 (UTC):
>>>> ...
>>>>> Still, if Debian8 runs why does Debian9 fail?  Simple upgrade from 8
>>>>> to > 9, nothing else changed.
>>>> Kernel changed from 3.16 to 4.9, big difference if you have the wrong
>>>> gfxchip:
>>>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg01326.html
>>
>>> I know, so I did not delete the 3.16 when the 4.9 was installed.  I
>>> tried booting up with 3.16 but it made no difference.
>> Well, the server changed a lot too, from 1.16.4 to 1.19.2.
>>
>> Until we know what gfxchip you have there's little or no more help to
>> offer. In addition to 'lspci | grep VGA' and/or 'inxi -c0 -v1', before
>> this is solved likely we'll need at least Xorg.0.log, plus dmesg and/or
>> output from journalctl.
> 
> I did not check the Xorg.0.log when the upgrade failed the DM and there
> is a new Jessie installation on it now which works fine (slow as hell
> but fine .. light years faster than WinXP though).  It is not mine to
> mess with it anymore, I simply installed debian as a toolbox to cure and
> backup old data from the drive on that machine.
> 
> I think with a meg or two of Ram this could be a very functional
> computer for a kid to learn debian.  The processor is much faster than I
> thought it was but the ram is less than I thought.  I know nothing about
> graphics hardware listed on lshw
> If the attachment fails I will copy paste the xml output here on the
> next message.
> 
> Again the installation was done once with a 8.7.1-lxde-i386 disk and
> upgraded to stretch before an update.  When it failed to bring up the
> display on reboot I thought it might be due to a mix up of dependencies
> because of the lack of update (from which 8.7.1 is not that far back).
> The second time libreoffice and gimp were removed to lighten-up and
> speed up update and upgrade.  The update of Jessie was complete before
> the switch to testing was attempted.  There was a reboot in its step to
> be able to identify where exactly the failure takes place.  Same exact
> result, it will boot up and work fine on the prompt of recovery and any
> efforts to bring up an X or LX display failed.  So now it is on Jessie
> stable and updated and all works fine with a bunch of other packages
> installed.  All previous installation logs were lost.
> 
> I speculate it is some graphics firmware that is no longer available on
> Stretch but is active on Jessie.
> 

I thought that I had never seen an attachment on the list before but I
was not sure.  So here is the lazy output. (Power Management bus
mastering PCI capabilities listing VGA compatible controller VT8375
[ProSavage8 KM266/KL266] [5333:8D04] S3 Graphics Ltd. [5333] 0
pci@:01:00.0 00 32 6600 )


Computer PROD OEM0 32 SMBIOS version 2.2 SMP specification
v1.4 Symmetric Multi-Processing
Motherboard 0 Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.40GHz Intel Corp. 0 cpu@0 15.2.9
25 32
boot processor mathematical co-processor FPU exceptions reporting
virtual mode extensions debugging extensions page size extensions time
stamp counter model-specific registers 4GB+ memory addressing (Physical
Address Extension) machine check exceptions compare and exchange 8-byte
on-chip advanced programmable interrupt controller (APIC) fast system
calls memory type range registers page global enable machine check
architecture conditional move instruction page attribute table 36-bit
page size extensions debug trace and EMON store MSRs thermal control
(ACPI) multimedia extensions (MMX) fast floating point save/restore
streaming SIMD extensions (SSE) streaming SIMD extensions (SSE2) self-snoop

HyperThreading thermal interrupt and status pending break event L1 cache
0 8192 System memory 1 242102272 Host bridge P4M266 Host Bridge
[1106:3148] VIA Technologies, Inc. [1106] 100 pci@:00:00.0 00 32
6600 PCI bridge VT8633 [Apollo Pro266 AGP] [1106:B091] VIA
Technologies, Inc. [1106] 1 pci@:00:01.0 00 32 6600

Power Management bus mastering PCI capabilities listing VGA compatible
controller VT8375 [ProSavage8 KM266/KL266] [5333:8D04] S3 Graphics Ltd.
[5333] 0 pci@:01:00.0 00 32 6600

Power Management AGP AGP 2.0 bus mastering PCI capabilities listing USB
controller VT82x UHCI
USB 1.1

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

Felix Miata:
> IOW, it is suggested that iomem=relaxed may need to be included on
> kernel cmdline for the old user-space xserver-xorg-video-savage driver
> to work with your gfxchip in Stretch.

Thank you for the help in answering the puzzle, but how is a
semi-i-literate person able to translate this into a command/procedure
that will achieve such a thing?  IOW, I am clueless at this point of
what a kernel cmdline is.  I suspect it is a parameter in some file that
builds up the kernel during boot ... but where is it and how do I add
this command/parameter in it?

Thank you again
kAt

PS  During vacation time I have promissed to give linux-from-scratch a
try, just to understand the necessary steps that build up the system.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

if you have no swap in your installation this is what you do??? Why???

A while ago while Thomas Schmitt was helping me with dd and xorriso in
backing up systems and partitions into usb and back the issue of not
having a swap partition in my system came up, since I chose not to
during the installation, and how to create one, lead me into a search of
doing just that.

In the page
https://askubuntu.com/questions/33697/how-do-i-add-a-swap-partition-after-system-installation
there are instructions that I believe work just as well on Debian to
either create a new partition for swap or create a swap file, which I
did not know it was an option.
I chose the second as my partitioning has become complex and most of the
drive is not available during boot-up. So I assume it would run to an
error if I did this on a partition that is not available during boot.

Below you will find the exact instructions I used and worked fine for me
on Stretch (I believe to be true for all Debian).

But here come some questions:
1 What is the difference functionally of having a swap partition from
having a swap file? Is it that you can use a separate physical disk
that will take the wear and tear of swaping?
2 Is swap size relevant to ram, should it be equal, greater, smaller?
Advantages disadvantages? I rarely see in a workstation and my/our use
anywhere close to 4GB being used, it usually maxes out around 2,5GB. No,
no killing games here, maybe some chess and gnubg. Is it that a Ram of
1GB would benefit from 2-4GB swap space while with 16GB or Ram swap
would never be used?

3 chmod 600 for the swapfile. Why?
4 Is "dd bs=1M count=4M" that defines the 4,000Mb of space/size of the
file?

I am now going to use gnubg to test my mem capabilities. I think making
it calculate best move 4-5 moves ahead in bg or chess will stress the
system out :)

___

#Create an empty file (1K * 4M = 4 GiB)
sudo mkdir -v /var/cache/swap
cd /var/cache/swap
sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=swapfile bs=1K count=4M
sudo chmod 600 swapfile

#Convert newly created file into a swap space file.
sudo mkswap swapfile

#Enable file for paging and swapping.
sudo swapon swapfile

#Verify by: swapon -s or top:
top -bn1 | grep -i swap
#KiB Swap: 4194300 total, 4194300 free

#To disable, use
sudo swapoff swapfile.

#Add it into fstab file to make it persistent on the next system
#boot.
echo "/var/cache/swap/swapfile none swap sw 0 0" | sudo tee -a
/etc/fstab

#Re-test swap file on startup by:
sudo swapoff swapfile
sudo swapon -va
_

--
"The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: info



domenico cop:
> hi. I am a consumer microsoft from little past to linux.

You must be translating italian to english with googletranslate which
explains why you make little sense.  So you have been an MSwindows user
and have only recently switched to linux, hopefully to debian.

> but how much confusion that us. thousand distributions thousand names.
> it should take only a name with at the most 5 or 6 versions of
> desktop.  will it be the monopoly microsoft that makes you divide?

Difference and variety does not constitute a problematic status but a
tremendous power.  Unity of non equals and non-compliant units is what
eventually creates a problem, especially if this unity is forced upon
the units.  To name a few, there is no central distribution center that
would collapse the whole after the collapse of the center.  It is the
same way nature has mycelium growth in related but not dependent cells.
You can cut any part of the mycelium and the rest survives, or both
parts will survive independently.  If MS or Mac file bankruptcy and
cease to operate tomorrow, there will be no support or no bug fixing.
Their universe would collapse if the locked up secret code remains locked.

Just think of all the cooperation and non-antagonistic synergy that
takes place between hundreds of thousands of people writing and
developing and "sharing" all that they do in a way "anyone" can use.

> however my
> question is this: among all the desktops (kde gnome etc) which are
> those that have the toolbar in low or that however through formulations
> they allow to put her/it in low? I know the lxde because it is that what
> time I use. however I would want to know the situation of the other

Keep playing around and you will find many things to do in the way you
like them to be.  Imagine having 4 toolbars, one for each side of the
rectangular screen.  Are you allowed such luxuries in macwindows?  I
wouldn't know.

> desktops regarding the position of such bar. wishes and graces.
> but you are united. and fairies of the files that contain all
> the dependences (like .exe or .mac). this way that each chooses
> whether to install them or rather through synaptic and connection
> internet or offline.

I assume you mean that on the synaptic list of available packages there
are files that are not programs as you know in windows.  That is because
exe/.mac? programs are archives of all the things each one needs to run
with.  The problem is that some of them include the same things over and
over again and this is why they take so much more space than linux,
which share their dependencies.

I agree, there should be a form of synaptic that has a cleaner list
without all the libraries and manual files listed, something you can
browse easier.  Also I would make the search more complex in order to be
able to select among different fields for something.  i.e. if you want
to find something among the admin or util section, from this one
repository, for this one desktop (not all), and within this you add a
keyword from the name/description.  But between me and you we can take
the source code of synaptic and edit it to do what we want to.  If it
works we can publish it for people to try.  Possibly if there is value
in what we have done it can either be incorporated into the synaptic
code or we cab fork ourselves a better package.  Nobody is stopping us.
It is trying to get rich  from doing so that becomes an issue not
whether it can be done.

A while ago I was like you, I thought synaptic was the only way.  After
I learned to use apt apt-get etc (but still hate aptitude) I do not
bother much with synaptic unless I am searching for something new.

I have tried a few desktops in the past, cinnamon, lxqt, gnome3, mate,
etc.  Too flaky and sometimes slow for me.  I like lxde and sometimes I
use openbox which has taught me much of what it takes to bring up a
graphical/windows display.  So now I can just bring up what I need from
lxde without the rest of it.  I like a clean minimal desktop of what I
am doing right that instance. Why pack whole luggage up to go to the
garden to repot a plant?  Why have half a ton of tools and toolboxes to
change oil and sparkplugs to your Alfa Romeo Julia?  You only need 4
tools, that is what should be out there!  Why carry 3kg of tools on your
7kg bicycle?

But that is why we best not be united and have a single entity deciding
what we need or we don't.

PS  I think Q4OS is the nicest entry level MSwin to linux transition
experience.  I dumbed that experiment when I realized it was next to
impossible to start from Debian and go to Q4os and back.  Something told
me not to trust it too much!  It has an intitial screen which allows you
to chose basic desktop arrangements that look awfully close to Win7 and
a package installer of the most common basic gui packages that people
use on their early experience.


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: [Stretch, 9.0] Installation failed to install net-tools (from scratch installation)

I thought that I had never seen an attachment on the list before but I
was not sure.  So here is the lazy output. (Power Management bus
mastering PCI capabilities listing VGA compatible controller VT8375
[ProSavage8 KM266/KL266] [5333:8D04] S3 Graphics Ltd. [5333] 0
pci@:01:00.0 00 32 6600 )


Computer PROD OEM0 32 SMBIOS version 2.2 SMP specification
v1.4 Symmetric Multi-Processing
Motherboard 0 Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.40GHz Intel Corp. 0 cpu@0 15.2.9
25 32
boot processor mathematical co-processor FPU exceptions reporting
virtual mode extensions debugging extensions page size extensions time
stamp counter model-specific registers 4GB+ memory addressing (Physical
Address Extension) machine check exceptions compare and exchange 8-byte
on-chip advanced programmable interrupt controller (APIC) fast system
calls memory type range registers page global enable machine check
architecture conditional move instruction page attribute table 36-bit
page size extensions debug trace and EMON store MSRs thermal control
(ACPI) multimedia extensions (MMX) fast floating point save/restore
streaming SIMD extensions (SSE) streaming SIMD extensions (SSE2) self-snoop

HyperThreading thermal interrupt and status pending break event L1 cache
0 8192 System memory 1 242102272 Host bridge P4M266 Host Bridge
[1106:3148] VIA Technologies, Inc. [1106] 100 pci@:00:00.0 00 32
6600 PCI bridge VT8633 [Apollo Pro266 AGP] [1106:B091] VIA
Technologies, Inc. [1106] 1 pci@:00:01.0 00 32 6600

Power Management bus mastering PCI capabilities listing VGA compatible
controller VT8375 [ProSavage8 KM266/KL266] [5333:8D04] S3 Graphics Ltd.
[5333] 0 pci@:01:00.0 00 32 6600

Power Management AGP AGP 2.0 bus mastering PCI capabilities listing USB
controller VT82x UHCI
USB 1.1 Controller [1106:3038] VIA Technologies, Inc. [1106] 10
pci@:00:10.0 80 32 3300
Power Management Universal Host Controller Interface (USB1) bus
mastering PCI capabilities listing UHCI Host Controller [1D6B:1]

Linux 3.16.0-4-586 uhci_hcd [1D6B] 1 usb@1 usb1 3.16 USB 1.1 Mouse Basic
Optical Mouse [45E:83] Microsoft [45E] 2 usb@1:2 0.00 USB 1.1 USB
controller VT82x UHCI USB 1.1 Controller [1106:3038] VIA
Technologies, Inc. [1106] 10.1 pci@:00:10.1 80 32 3300 Power
Management Universal Host Controller Interface (USB1) bus mastering PCI
capabilities listing UHCI Host Controller [1D6B:1] Linux 3.16.0-4-586
uhci_hcd [1D6B] 1 usb@3 usb3 3.16 USB 1.1 USB controller VT82x UHCI
USB 1.1 Controller [1106:3038] VIA Technologies, Inc. [1106] 10.2
pci@:00:10.2 80 32 3300 Power Management Universal Host
Controller Interface (USB1) bus mastering PCI capabilities listing UHCI
Host Controller [1D6B:1] Linux 3.16.0-4-586 uhci_hcd [1D6B] 1 usb@4 usb4
3.16 USB 1.1 USB controller USB 2.0 [1106:3104] VIA Technologies, Inc.
[1106] 10.3 pci@:00:10.3 82 32 3300 Power Management Enhanced
Host Controller Interface (USB2) bus mastering PCI capabilities listing
EHCI Host Controller [1D6B:2] Linux 3.16.0-4-586 ehci_hcd [1D6B] 1 usb@2
usb2 3.16 USB 2.0 ISA bridge VT8235 ISA Bridge [1106:3177] VIA
Technologies, Inc. [1106] 11 pci@:00:11.0 00 32 3300 Power
Management bus mastering PCI capabilities listing IDE interface
VT82C586A/B/VT82C686/A/B/VT823x/A/C PIPC Bus Master IDE [1106:571] VIA
Technologies, Inc. [1106] 11.1 pci@:00:11.1 06 32 3300 Power
Management bus mastering PCI capabilities listing Multimedia audio
controller VT8233/A/8235/8237 AC97 Audio Controller [1106:3059] VIA
Technologies, Inc. [1106] 11.5 pci@:00:11.5 50 32 3300 Power
Management PCI capabilities listing Ethernet interface VT6102 [Rhine-II]
[1106:3065] VIA Technologies, Inc. [1106] 12 pci@:00:12.0 eth0 74
00:0c:76:8e:f0:fd 1 1 32 3300 Power Management bus
mastering PCI capabilities listing Physical interface twisted pair Media
Independent Interface 10Mbit/s 10Mbit/s (full duplex) 100Mbit/s
100Mbit/s (full duplex) Auto-negotiation 2 scsi0 Emulated device ATA
Disk ST340014A Seagate 0.0.0 scsi@0:0.0.0 /dev/sda 8:0 3.06 5JX73XSR
40020664320 Partitioned disk MS-DOS partition table Windows NTFS volume
1 scsi@0:0.0.0,1 /dev/sda1 8:1 3.1 de9c8852-4940-544b-8699-ae2047d3b2e8
2964672 300 Primary partition Bootable partition (active)
Windows NTFS initialized volume Extended partition 2 scsi@0:0.0.0,2
/dev/sda2 8:2 10019144704 10019144704 Primary partition Extended
partition Partitioned disk Extended partition Linux filesystem partition
5 /dev/sda5 / 8:5 9557770240 Linux swap / Solaris partition 6 /dev/sda6
8:6 460324864 No filesystem 3 scsi1 Emulated device DVD reader COMBO
LTC-48161H LITE-ON 0.0.0 scsi@1:0.0.0 /dev/cdrom /dev/cdrw /dev/dvd
/dev/sr0 /media/cdrom0 11:0 KH0P support is removable Audio CD playback
CD-R burning CD-RW burning DVD playback 0 /dev/cdrom /media/cdrom0 11:0

-- cut here for lshw XML file --








 Computer
 PROD
 OEM0
 32
 
  
 
 
  SMBIOS version 2.2
  SMP

Re: [Stretch, 9.0] Installation failed to install net-tools (from scratch installation)

I had a very weird experience yesterday on a machine with Stretch using
firmware from misc-firmware to run a USB wifi stick.  This worked before
and it was shutdown functional and rebooted a few days later.  I first
noticed that in trying to find a network connection during boot it took
a long time which was not the case before.
I used wicd and connman to see what is going on and the wifi picked up
signals from surrounding wifi sources.  Again and again it would fail
with an error of incorrect passphrase.  I messed with the router changed
encryption back and forth on both the pc and router (what a maze that is
...  none of the router options and the software options on encryption
match exactly to someone who can't tell what all those encryption
options are).  Finally I unplugged the stick into a different USB port
to see if it made any difference.  Nothing.  I got so irritated with
losing hours of potential work to mess with something unnecessarily
trivial that I shut it down.  When calm a little later I booted it back
up.  It asked me for my keyring pass and then found the signal and asked
for the passphrase and connected fine.

DOES hardware need to warm up before it completely functions, and can a
cold pc malfunction?   It sounds like a silly question but no other
logical explanation can I conceive about the incident.

Sven Joachim:
> On 2017-04-06 11:09 -0400, Jameson Burt wrote:
> 
>> On Sunday, April 2, I installed from scatch on all new hardware.
>> That installation failed to install
>>net-tools
> 
> This is to be expected, net-tools is no longer installed by default, 
> the alleged successor is iproute2.
> 
>> The whole installation "seemed" to go well,
>> and on reboot the desktop interface worked well.
>>
>> While the installation properly used some networking during installation,
>> afterwords I couldn't access anything beyond my computer, including
>>apt-get  install  dctrl-tools
> 
> Finding out why that happened would be very useful.
> 
>> So, while debugging, the following commands were missing
>>route
>>ifconfig
> 
> Use the ip command instead, specifically "ip route" and "ip address".
> 
> Cheers,
>Sven
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

See attached file for complete lshw of the failed stretch upgrade

Felix Miata:
> GiaThnYgeia composed on 2017-04-04 18:22 (UTC):
> 
>> Felix Miata:
> 
>>> GiaThnYgeia composed on 2017-04-04 13:51 (UTC):
>>> ...
>>>> Still, if Debian8 runs why does Debian9 fail?  Simple upgrade from 8
>>>> to > 9, nothing else changed.
>>> Kernel changed from 3.16 to 4.9, big difference if you have the wrong
>>> gfxchip:
>>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg01326.html
> 
>> I know, so I did not delete the 3.16 when the 4.9 was installed.  I
>> tried booting up with 3.16 but it made no difference.
> Well, the server changed a lot too, from 1.16.4 to 1.19.2.
> 
> Until we know what gfxchip you have there's little or no more help to
> offer. In addition to 'lspci | grep VGA' and/or 'inxi -c0 -v1', before
> this is solved likely we'll need at least Xorg.0.log, plus dmesg and/or
> output from journalctl.

I did not check the Xorg.0.log when the upgrade failed the DM and there
is a new Jessie installation on it now which works fine (slow as hell
but fine .. light years faster than WinXP though).  It is not mine to
mess with it anymore, I simply installed debian as a toolbox to cure and
backup old data from the drive on that machine.

I think with a meg or two of Ram this could be a very functional
computer for a kid to learn debian.  The processor is much faster than I
thought it was but the ram is less than I thought.  I know nothing about
graphics hardware listed on lshw
If the attachment fails I will copy paste the xml output here on the
next message.

Again the installation was done once with a 8.7.1-lxde-i386 disk and
upgraded to stretch before an update.  When it failed to bring up the
display on reboot I thought it might be due to a mix up of dependencies
because of the lack of update (from which 8.7.1 is not that far back).
The second time libreoffice and gimp were removed to lighten-up and
speed up update and upgrade.  The update of Jessie was complete before
the switch to testing was attempted.  There was a reboot in its step to
be able to identify where exactly the failure takes place.  Same exact
result, it will boot up and work fine on the prompt of recovery and any
efforts to bring up an X or LX display failed.  So now it is on Jessie
stable and updated and all works fine with a bunch of other packages
installed.  All previous installation logs were lost.

I speculate it is some graphics firmware that is no longer available on
Stretch but is active on Jessie.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG







 Computer
 PROD
 OEM0
 32
 
  
 
 
  SMBIOS version 2.2
  SMP specification v1.4
  Symmetric Multi-Processing
 
  
   Motherboard
   0

 Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.40GHz
 Intel Corp.
 0
 cpu@0
 15.2.9
 25
 32
 
  
 
 
  boot processor
  mathematical co-processor
  FPU exceptions reporting
  
  virtual mode extensions
  debugging extensions
  page size extensions
  time stamp counter
  model-specific registers
  4GB+ memory addressing (Physical Address Extension)
  machine check exceptions
  compare and exchange 8-byte
  on-chip advanced programmable interrupt controller (APIC)
  fast system calls
  memory type range registers
  page global enable
  machine check architecture
  conditional move instruction
  page attribute table
  36-bit page size extensions
  
  debug trace and EMON store MSRs
  thermal control (ACPI)
  multimedia extensions (MMX)
  fast floating point save/restore
  streaming SIMD extensions (SSE)
  streaming SIMD extensions (SSE2)
  self-snoop
  HyperThreading
  thermal interrupt and status
  pending break event
  
  
  
  
 
  
   L1 cache
   0
   8192
  


 System memory
 1
 242102272


 Host bridge
 P4M266 Host Bridge [1106:3148]
 VIA Technologies, Inc. [1106]
 100
 pci@:00:00.0
 00
 32
 6600
 
  
 
 
  
  
 
  
   PCI bridge
   VT8633 [Apollo Pro266 AGP] [1106:B091]
   VIA Technologies, Inc. [1106]
   1
   pci@:00:01.0
   00
   32
   6600
   

Power Management

bus mastering
PCI capabilities listing
   
   


   

 VGA compatible controller
 VT8375 [ProSavage8 KM266/KL266] [5333:8D04]
 S3 Graphics Ltd. [5333]
 0
 pci@:01:00.0
 00
 32
 6600
 
  
  
  
 
 
  Power Management
  AGP
  AGP 2.0
  
  bus mastering
  PC

Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

2017-04-04 Thread GiaThnYgeia



Felix Miata:
> GiaThnYgeia composed on 2017-04-04 13:51 (UTC):
> ...
>> This must be a 15y old machine, at least. I think it is a very early
>> Celeron > processor with about 256k video memory. 
> 
> What do 'lspci | grep VGA' and/or 'inxi -c0 -v1' show?

One of the reasons I wrote the post is to get a list of stuff that I
will have to record when I go back. It may take another day.

>> Still, if Debian8 runs why does Debian9 fail?  Simple upgrade from 8
>> to > 9, nothing else changed.
> Kernel changed from 3.16 to 4.9, big difference if you have the wrong
> gfxchip:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg01326.html

I know, so I did not delete the 3.16 when the 4.9 was installed.  I
tried booting up with 3.16 but it made no difference.  Same color lines
flashed once the bootup text was gone and it tried to bring up the
graphical part.  Even from recovery trying to bring something up
manually it run into the same.
I am a bit hasty on the procedure of building up the running kernel, it
may start as 3.16 but it incorporates other drivers into the kernel when
something like LightDM is attempted, right?  So even if the 3.16 kernel
is the same it brings up graphics related code from Debian9 that is
different from 8.

Here my USB installed systems may have some use, for someone who has
valuable data on a system to try the upgrade on a different drive before
messing up their long developed system.  I just didn't have any 32bit
ones.

Funny thing (kudos to the tails team) that has testing and unstable
stuff all mixed up in there . it DID run!  I noticed the kernel is
built on 4.8 and it is 32bit (I think there is going to be one last 2.12
32bit edition and then all tails3 will be 64bit only).  But I think live
systems incorporate a lot of code that makes them more adopting to
hardware than permanent installations.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie

2017-04-04 Thread GiaThnYgeia

I installed several times 8.7.1 LXDE and as soon as I forced Stretch on
it it will boot up but will not bring up a graphic display.  Attempts to
revert and/or switch from LightDM to LXDM did not cure the problem.
The second time I updated 8.7.1 to its latest and then tried to make the
switch to Debian9.  Trying to boot up with Linux 3.18 didn't have any
effect.  The screen flashed some colors trying to bring up the DM but it
remains black afterwards.

So the third time I just reinstalled and updated 8.7.1 to its current
stable state and it runs fine (slow but one heck faster than windows).
I wonder if anyone else has similar problems and such problems have been
reported.  I tried to look through the bug maze but did not find
anything.  Next visit up there I will record the details of Hardware to
post.

1024x768 is the max resolution it can handle and with the low memory
it has, some "windows" like synaptic or firefox, when you try to move
them around it seems like it takes forever, like it virtually
tries to erase the picture from one pixel to draw the next.

This is not a problem as there is nothing within the system worth
saving, it was just an exercise to fix and backup old data from a WinXP
that had become a mesh (pictures, documents, etc).  I used about 8Gb of
free disk to install Debian to backup the rest of the 80GB drive.  This
must be a 15y old machine, at least.  I think it is a very early Celeron
processor with about 256k video memory.

Still, if Debian8 runs why does Debian9 fail?  Simple upgrade from 8 to
9, nothing else changed.  As soon as the update/grade finished and it is
rebooted it is all black.  Scraping the LXDE/lightdm/Openbox the login
screen works fine and runs apt and everything else just fine.  No
graphic display, that's all.


kAt


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: OT: speaking of days (weeks, months, years, etc.)

2017-04-01 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Lisi Reisz:
> On Friday 31 March 2017 22:53:00 kAt wrote:
>> As there is a domination of the
>> industrial North and elitism against the dominated South.
> 
> Not here  The non-industrial white collar south-east dominates the 
> industrial north economically.  The Northern Powerhub is so far a figment of 
> the politicians' imaginations.  Banks trump factories.

It does not have to do with geography but with history.  The north of
the uk did not go into a bloody civil war with the south and for
economical reasons (cheap industrial labor) vs even cheaper
non-industrial labor.  As the discussion started from the remark about
bumkins down in N.Carolina to draw parallels about North and South Korea
would be meaningless.  It relates to the social issues about the
"economical development" against the "underdevelopment" of the south.
The social implications in which case relate to differentiation in
education, health, infrustructure of "developed" areas and
underdeveloped areas.  Before the civil war started things were pretty
reversed with S.Carolina having almost 10 times the per capita income of
the rest of the US, the best schools and the best of everything.

In the UK the NHS and public schools were pretty much equal for all, it
had nothing to do with regional economic development.

> Lisi

I don't know why you are derailing the issue to something completely
irrelevant, unless there is a N.Carolina down south in the UK I don't
know about!

We do want southerners (down southerners) of all kinds equally welcome
in this Debian community, don't we?  Even Aboriginees from S.Australia.
That is my point!

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Wifi Drivers still not recognized by Debian, even when using Netinst

2017-03-19 Thread GiaThnYgeia



Dean Valentine:
> Hi, I was having trouble contacting the mailing list on my other thread, so
> I just started a new one.
> 
> I have attempted to use both the live-iso and netinst iso with bundled
> non-free drivers, but Debian still can't detect/load my wifi. To rehash,
> 
> 1. I use an Acer Aspire S laptop.
> 2. The error looks like this:
> https://puu.sh/uQsLL/2661cdaa7c.jpg
> 3. My lspci output looks like this:
> https://puu.sh/uQsUJ/ff0045aa59.jpg
> 4. Here's dmesg grepped for "driver" and "ath":
> https://puu.sh/uQt0l/a321614cd6.jpg

Have you seen this?
https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/520031-Qualcomm-Atheros-QCA6174-wireless-not-working/page2?s=11bc494a125b203d71b812d8f58abe1f


https://packages.debian.org/stretch/firmware-atheros - Qualcomm Atheros
QCA6174 rev 3.0 firmware, versionWLAN.RM.2.0-00180-QCARMSWPZ-1
(ath10k/QCA6174/hw3.0/firmware-4.bin)

> I don't know what to do. Other operating systems manage to find and use my
> wifi, but Debian is different, even using its proprietary-firmware-bundled
> ISO.
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: tor -- way OT

2017-03-19 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Latincom:
> 
> Really nice post, thanks:
> I have one [OT] question, i use Wheezy at work, but i tested Kodachi a 
> Debian derivative, and it took the HWID! Is it a security problem? Well, 
> a second question, are you saying, that when i use Tails, i must not 
> permit scrips? 

Some of those systems are meant to run live or in vm and not installed
on the hd.  I don't know about Kodachi but tails is basically a debian
package hardened into a live system with networking restricted through
tor.  It allows you to make a conscious decision and use the "unsafe"
browser, which is more unsafe than tbb with scripts enabled.  So I will
propose to you to ask yourself, are those who you trust requiring you to
enable scripts to read their information or participate in a forum?
So, what is it they don't understand?  Aaaahhh!!  Stick with debian!
>From your debian repository you can install forum, webmail, webpage,
servers that function perfectly without scripts.  So the question that
comes to mind is does it have to be this way?
enlacezapatista.ezln.org.mx/2013/01/27/them-and-us-v-the-sixth#it
doesn’t have to be this way


I am not 100% sure of the internals of all this, I say what I trully can
understand.  Can you mount your hard drive through the use of tails?
Can you read data off of it?  If by enabling scripts you indirectly
allowing an application to open ports on networking that were otherwise
shut.  Then data from you hd could  potentially pass through on the
network.  What may be encrypted beyond your machine or your lan is not
encrypted within your machine.  You can read it.  And you can never ever
be sure who is on the other side of the connection ... can you bet your
children that wikipedia today is what it was and it is not a wikipedia
to you looking like a wikipedia?

There is no limit to how paranoid you may get in digital systems when
even your physical surroundings provide plenty of grounds to be paranoid
about.  You just take some "relative" good measures appropriate for your
use based on a general consensus of those who deal with "the problem".
Your definition of the problem is the definition of what you consider
safe.  Some distrust big-profitable corporations and distrust
governments.  Some are exactly the opposite.  Some don't trust either
but consider their political/religious safe-heavens to trust.  And then
there are those that do not really trust anything and anybody, and
although I feel bad for them they have already lost in their own
personal nightmare game.  So, how many lights do you see Jean-Luc?  Stay
with us!

There is what some may call ethical hacking which has stricter moral
code than the Vatican, Jerusalem or Mecca combined. And then there is
the scum of the earth who deal in child exploitation, of lives and
exchange of contraband that benefit from all this.  To answer some of
these questions is to provide the child molester or the non-adult
traffickers and poison distributors the tools to be more effective.
Which is a moral dilemma.  You can destroy a life with a hammer and the
hammer is perfectly legal and socially acceptable, as a tool.

> Lat

kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: tor -- way OT

Glenn English:
> On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 11:19 AM, GiaThnYgeia
> <giathnyg...@openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
>> READ THE MANUALS  ;)  :P  (just kidding!)
> 
> Wow! Thanks for so much advice from the list.
> 
> <FWIW, FYI>
> Everybody said to get rid of privoxy, so I did -- there was no privoxy
> on the machine Tor was on, but there was on the server across the room
> that this machine has no business talking to, except to send and fetch
> email. But that somehow seems to have made Tor start working again. I
> don't quite believe that getting rid of privaxy over there had
> anything to do with this machine. Maybe the Tor network was just a
> little bent or something the other day.

This is part of the privoxy config instructions:
#  5.2. forward-socks4, forward-socks4a, forward-socks5 and forward-socks5t
#  =
#
#  Specifies:
#
#  Through which SOCKS proxy (and optionally to which parent HTTP
#  proxy) specific requests should be routed.
#
#  Type of value:
#
#  target_pattern socks_proxy[:port] http_parent[:port]
#
#  where target_pattern is a URL pattern that specifies to which
#  requests (i.e. URLs) this forward rule shall apply. Use / to
#  denote "all URLs". http_parent and socks_proxy are IP
#  addresses in dotted decimal notation or valid DNS names (
#  http_parent may be "." to denote "no HTTP forwarding"), and
#  the optional port parameters are TCP ports, i.e. integer
#  values from 1 to 65535
#
#  Default value:
#
#  Unset
#
#  Effect if unset:
#
#  Don't use SOCKS proxies.
#
#  Notes:
#
#  Multiple lines are OK, they are checked in sequence, and the
#  last match wins.
#
#  The difference between forward-socks4 and forward-socks4a is
#  that in the SOCKS 4A protocol, the DNS resolution of the
#  target hostname happens on the SOCKS server, while in SOCKS 4
#  it happens locally.
#
#  With forward-socks5 the DNS resolution will happen on the
#  remote server as well.
#
#  forward-socks5t works like vanilla forward-socks5 but lets
#  Privoxy additionally use Tor-specific SOCKS extensions.
#  Currently the only supported SOCKS extension is optimistic
#  data which can reduce the latency for the first request made
#  on a newly created connection.
#
#  socks_proxy and http_parent can be a numerical IPv6 address
#  (if RFC 3493 is implemented). To prevent clashes with the port
#  delimiter, the whole IP address has to be put into brackets.
#  On the other hand a target_pattern containing an IPv6 address
#  has to be put into angle brackets (normal brackets are
#  reserved for regular expressions already).
#
#  If http_parent is ".", then requests are not forwarded to
#  another HTTP proxy but are made (HTTP-wise) directly to the
#  web servers, albeit through a SOCKS proxy.
#
#  Examples:
#
#  From the company example.com, direct connections are made to
#  all "internal" domains, but everything outbound goes through
#  their ISP's proxy by way of example.com's corporate SOCKS 4A
#  gateway to the Internet.
#
#forward-socks4a   /  socks-gw.example.com:1080
www-cache.isp.example.net:8080
#forward   .example.com   .
#
#  A rule that uses a SOCKS 4 gateway for all destinations but no
#  HTTP parent looks like this:
#
#forward-socks4   /   socks-gw.example.com:1080  .
#
#  To chain Privoxy and Tor, both running on the same system, you
#  would use something like:
#
#forward-socks5t   /   127.0.0.1:9050 .
#
#  Note that if you got Tor through one of the bundles, you may
#  have to change the port from 9050 to 9150 (or even another
#  one). For details, please check the documentation on the Tor
#  website.
#
#  The public Tor network can't be used to reach your local
#  network, if you need to access local servers you therefore
#  might want to make some exceptions:
#
#forward 192.168.*.*/ .
#forward10.*.*.*/ .
#forward   127.*.*.*/ .
#
#  Unencrypted connections to systems in these address ranges
#  will be as (un)secure as the local network is, but the
#  alternative is that you can't reach the local network through
#  Privoxy at all. Of course this may actually be desired and
#  there is no reason to make these exceptions if you aren't sure
#  you need them.
#
#  If you also want to be able to reach servers in your local
#  network by using their names, you will need additional
#  exceptions that look like this:
#
#   forward   localhost/ .
#
#

> Anyway, if you can read this, Gmail's running again on Tor. Tor's a

It's almost like a contr

Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?

Brian:
>>> Stop pissing about. Is the data in /var/lib/apt or not?
>>
>> I use to have friends like you when I worked in boat yards  and
>> ships.  They seemed to behave better while talking to someone with a 4"
>> pipe wrench in hand.  Is this what it is about?  Not having a wrench
>> around you?
> 
> Nobody likes being shouted at; it is very upsetting. You can tell how
> upset I was because I used "Is..." instead of "Are..." in my response.

I don't what exactly you mean by this, I may have lost the connection.

>>  "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG
> 
> You appear above to have made a case for boatyards and ships being a
> close second.

I don't want to interpret what rEG said, as she said this more than 100
years ago, and things "may" have been different.
When most people speak of violence they tend to think of physical
violence, making verbal and psychological violence as a more acceptable
behavior.  It is almost like laundering in a form of violence, and
possibly rule by violence, that I consider unnecessary.

The state for one couldn't care less about who has the monopoly on
mental violence, it is the physical one that "it" is in control of.  If
you have the money or/and the power you can get away with any type of
violence.  Those are the conditions the economy and political structure
dictate and reproduce.  We can try to do better than this, in our
"communities" by not allowing such acts of violence.  Meaning, we must
discourage fascism (rule by violence) in any shape of form.  If you work
for Gates writing code it is OK for him to vent off on you and tell you
to stop pissing about and finish your work.  There is nothing you can do
about it.  If you work for the Mi5 they can tell you to stop pissing
about and get to snitching, subverting, and undermining as you are paid
to do.

All I can do is propose to have a less violent code of conduct.  You can
keep up with your ways and I can keep up being a pest about it!

Sometimes you just have to crush some eggs before the snakes come out
and bite you.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Where is data stored when Synaptic scans DVDs?

Brian:
> On Fri 17 Mar 2017 at 15:29:58 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
>> On 03/17/2017 11:15 AM, songbird wrote:
>>>
>>>  man apt-get
>>
>> It implies *BUT DOES _NOT_ STATE* the all the requested data is in the
>> /var/lib/apt directory.
> 
> Stop pissing about. Is the data in /var/lib/apt or not?

I use to have friends like you when I worked in boat yards  and
ships.  They seemed to behave better while talking to someone with a 4"
pipe wrench in hand.  Is this what it is about?  Not having a wrench
around you?

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Netinstall of Debian 8 on DELL laptop fails

Rinse out the cd with distilled water shake it like crazy and wipe it
dry with the softest of all cotton cloths.  If it is not working still
recycle it.
Use a USB stick to put the iso on, it will last much longer than the
system will have any use.  Do not use the live part for installations,
just use the graphic install as it keeps the system free of all
unnecessary things using up resources.  The live part is a full debian
system running with the installer software in it.  It is nice so you can
look stuff up while the installation is proceeding but it is known to
produce problems.  I have no clue why.

deloptes:
> Klaus Jantzen wrote:
> 
>> This is wrong as I used the same CD to install Debian on my PC without
>> any problems.
> 
> did you follow the same path for the installation on the pc - graphic +
> expert?

There is a standard iso and Debian+non-free iso which some laptop
gadgetry requires but installation should have completed even with
missing firmware.

kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: tor -- way OT

READ THE MANUALS  ;)  :P  (just kidding!)

Various steps

1  About vpn and reaching the tor gate, your ISP may be able to see that
you are reaching out to make a connection to the various gates/nodes and
you may not want that, as ISPs are passing all personal information to
big-Sister.  And you "may" not want them to do so.  They pick on your
attempt to connect from their own DNS that you normally use.  It seems
as someone vigorously is supplying all ISPs in the world with a daily
updated list of known tor exit-entry-nodes.  So change your DNS servers
to what is assumed to be a safe net of DNS servers that do not log your
DNS requests.  I did say assumed, didn't I?

wiki.opennicproject.org/GettingStarted/#hn_Ubuntu_Linux
servers.opennicproject.org/  (Choose 3-4 from the list and check monthly
for dropped servers and try the ones closest to you, although the
furthest may only be a few hundred milliseconds away).

2  If you can afford a VPN service good for you.  For the less
privileged (like 96% of the planet) there is calyx.net and bitmask.net
https://bitmask.net/en/install/linux#debian-packages
or you can download a standalone package.  There is also a testing-beta
0.9.4 version.  This is a project by Leap.se and has made this open
source code available and is begging to be forked.  It is like openVPN
for dummies (like some of us).

3  tor by torproject.org is open and free just like Debian
That is why Debian only works with torproject and not just any other tor
software.  And all of them will tell your they work better!  Tor is a
network which you need special configuration to enter (and exit) safely.
Everything you wanted to know and were afraid to ask:
https://onion.debian.org/

Once you get tor running and install tor-browser you may also add the
torproject.org repository as well.  Since you are using it you might as
well use onion addresses to replace all repositories (Debian and Tor)

*** ... once you have the "apt-transport-tor" package installed, the
following entries should work in your sources list for a stable system:
(change the stretch to jessie stable testing sid ... or what you have)

deb
1 tor+http://vwakviie2ienjx6t.onion/debian stretch main
deb
2 tor+http://vwakviie2ienjx6t.onion/debian stretch-updates main
deb
3 tor+http://sgvtcaew4bxjd7ln.onion/debian-security stretch/updatesmain
deb
4 tor+http://vwakviie2ienjx6t.onion/debian stretch-backports main
deb
5 tor+http://sdscoq7snqtznauu.onion/torproject.org/ testing main

Remember the tor-transport package mentioned above is essential for any
of them to work and a live tor connection.  If tor daemon has stopped
all those addresses will run into an error.
You can also add the deb tor+http://debian...  or any other non onion
address and that works too.


4  And if all this wasn't enough . there is MORE!  Try
sandboxed-tor-browser in its 3rd current beta version.  It is just like
the tails tor-browser that can not see beyond its own sandbox (the
Amnesia sandboxed disk within your disk).

5  None of this stuff make any sense if you are enabling scripts and
going to googlefatsbookyoohooemesen ... crap sites!  You are defeating
the purpose of anonymity and privacy.  Do not abuse sensible freedom!
All debian websites do not require any scripts to be accessed and read.
Most respected websites (non-invasive) are the same way.  Those you can
not reach (it gets cloudy out-there) you don't want to read any way.

6  If you want to test your browser for torification use
check.torproject.org
If you want to check the configuration of other browsers and their
effective ability to cover themselves use eff.mozilla
https://panopticlick.eff.org/ but it doesn't mean much as it is compared
with a huge amount of non-tor browsers.

This project browserprint.info seems to be doing part of the same and
more but more directed to tor browsers.  The score is getting better
with every new edition of tor-browser.  The more unique your fingerprint
the easier for little-big-sisters to tell who you might be and what are
you up to.  So, you want to blend in with the fish, not stick out.  You
might hear that "the old tor was better than the new one, I am sticking
with the older version" and that is crap.  As 99% are updating to the
latest your trusty old tor-browser will stick out like a shore thumb!

7  If you are using icedove/thunderbird for mail disable all your
plugins and install tor-birdie which prohibits your mail-system to
communicate without tor.  Nothing comes-in nothing comes-out if the tor
connection has been dropped.

8  There is also tor-chatting and messaging and all kinds of other stuff
I do not use.

9  Don't expect Neo to come, save yourself!

Peter Ludikovsky:
> Hello,
> 
> First things first: AFAIK, just installing privoxy doesn't make it use
> Tor, it just acts as a regular proxy. Visit [1] to see if you're using
> Tor or not. In order to enable chaining through Tor you'll have to have
> a line like
>   forward-socks5  /   :

I used

Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not

2017-03-16 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Brian:

> Documentation dispels ignorance. Dispelling ignorance requires the
> co-operation of the user.

To a well educated ms-windows or apfel-widows to try out and see whether
they can live with debian, do you propose a couple of years of studying
before they even try a live version?  When one 1st timer tries to
install the system and gets to the linux swap partition question, should
they have printed 500 pages, have a second computer with the manuals
downloaded, or should they send a mail to the list?

It is a users list, not a developers list, not a well versed sys.admin
list, but users.  Do people who use computers for more than 10 years
understand in depth what non-free means, even if they read it in the
manual?  Would they imagine that for 90% of the aftermarket usb wifi
systems there is no free support?

With one it took me 3-4 days to get it to work on a stable debian.
Then I plugged in a tails-stick and it picked it up right away.  Is
every answer possible answered in those manuals?

Have you read the whole Gimp manual before you used it?
Every package in this system has 20 pages of code and 200 pages of
documentation that sometimes does not make much sense to a
debian-freshman,  In other words the majority of debian documentation
explain things with debian specific terminology.

To recapitulate, the purpose of the list as I understand it is not to
answer practical problems with "read the manual".  It defeats the purpose.

kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Finding firmware (and SHA sums etc), was Re: Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Arch Linux recognize my Acer Aspire S wifi, debian does not

2017-03-15 Thread GiaThnYgeia



Brian:
> It is also just as easy to find
>  https://www.debian.org/CD/
> and then
>  https://www.debian.org/CD/http-ftp/
> which leads to
>  http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/i386/iso-cd/

But he already mentioned this link

> without any right clicking or rubbing out. 
> What rules are these?
> It is shown above that it is not difficult to find.
> The netinst ISO is hardly huge.

Do you have anything to offer to the discussion or is it just bitter
criticism to others' questions?

And what are you so defensive about, criticism of poorly organized
information and poorly documented software?  The chaotic nature of these
systems comes from the chaotic system of development.  Most of the tiny
parts that make the whole thing work are developed by programmers whose
expertise on the tiny details prevent them from being able to
communicate the importance to the rest of the users (some are other
developers).  Are there segments of this chaotic hierarchy that
outsiders can understand?  Under each piece of code sits a tremendous
hierarchy and the next block up makes this hierarchy look minute.

If you can offer a hint in solving someone's problem because you know
better fine.  To criticism someone because they haven't read 2000
zillion pages of debian manuals to know what you do is ludicrous.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso

Very good information but the word sudo comes up everywhere.
If a user does not have sudo rights she/he can back-up files and restore
them as long as s/he has rights to what their backing-up/restoring.  So
if you are in a network public environment you may not even have rights
to even your own disk if some of it is somehow protected.  And in some
places to protect the system and network mounting media is not allowed,
bios may be locked and prevent the machine from booting anything other
than its networked drive.


Thomas Schmitt:
> Hi,
> 
> the restore scenario for the xorriso backup would be like this:
> 
> 
> - Prepare the storage device to which you want to restore.
>   This may be as simple as choosing some directory in a filesystem with
>   enough free space, or as complicated as setting up a new operating
>   system on a freshly purchased hard disk.
> 
> 
> - If the backup has some history of copying or transmission (e.g. by
>   being burned to a DVD), then first let xorriso check whether it is
>   still undamaged:
> 
> iso=/dev/sr0
> 
> xorriso -for_backup -indev "$iso" -check_media --
> 
>   will check the MD5 of superblock and directory tree and then read the
>   whole ISO sequentially to look for the MD5 checksum tags. Those MD5s
>   were stored by xorriso during the write run with setting -for_backup.
> 
>   Example of how a goot verification should look like (with lower speed
>   if read from a real DVD):
> 
> xorriso : UPDATE : Found matching MD5 superblock tag: start=32 size=18
> xorriso : UPDATE : Found matching MD5 tree tag: start=32 size=302
> xorriso : UPDATE : Found matching MD5 session tag: start=32 size=81217
> xorriso : UPDATE : 81250 blocks read in 1 seconds = 120.1xD
> Media checks :lba ,   size , quality
> Media region :  0 ,  81250 , + good
> Media region :  81250 ,158 , 0 untested
> MD5 checks   :lba ,   size , result
> MD5 tag range: 32 ,  81217 , + md5_match
> 
>   "Media region" with quality "+ good" means that there were no i/o errors.
>   "0 untested" means that these blocks are not claimed by the ISO filesystem.
> 
>   "MD5 tag range" with result "+ md5_match" means that the MD5 checksum
>   of the inspected region matches the recorded MD5.
> 
> 
> - If you just want to pick some files by help of your favorite file
>   copier tool, then mount the medium
> 
> iso=/dev/sr0
> sudo mount "$iso" /media/user/iso
> 
>   or if the ISO is in a data file rather than on a DVD
> 
> iso=usb_part1.iso
> sudo mount -o loop "$iso" /media/user/iso
> 
>   Now you may copy files from /media/user/iso to the place where you want
>   them to be. My favorite would be cp with option -a, possibly under sudo
>   control for the power to assign file ownerships.
>   (Caution: This can of course shoot your foot if you do not take care
> when composing the cp command.)
> 
> 
> - If you want to copy the whole ISO content from DVD to a directory tree
>   on hard disk or if ACLs and Extended Attributes matter, it is advisable
>   to let xorriso copy the files out of the ISO:
> 
> target=/my/prepared/restore/directory
> 
> sudo xorriso \
>  -osirrox on:sort_lba_on:auto_chmod_on \
>  -for_backup \
>  -indev "$iso" \
>  -extract / "$target"
> 
>   Only the superuser or sudo are permitted to assign file ownership to
>   other users. Omit "sudo" if all restored files shall belong the user
>   who operates xorriso.
> 
>   The -osirrox setting "on" enables command -extract. Setting "sort_lba"
>   lets xorriso read the files from DVD in the order of their content
>   block addresses. This avoids slow and loud laser head movements.
>   Because this reading order may cause revisiting of directories which
>   were already restored without wx-permission, the setting "auto_chmod_on"
>   permits xorriso to temprorarily grant its user those permissions.
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Apology to siduction 17.01 (was Re: why??why?why??)

Out of my frustration and lack of understanding, or the belief that all
systems should run as trouble-free as clean-debian, and possibly due to
just getting tired of fighting something too long, I bad-mouthed
siduction in public.

My source of frustration came from fighting an installation in a tired
old system (64bit) and a mediocre not so smart monitor.  Most installers
and systems I've seen use 800x600 as their boot/grub screen.
Siduction probably doesn't have access to an old monitor.  What this
meant was the screen would blank out and have an internal error showing
not-compatible meanwhile the grub time would expire and boot up
eventually to a graphical login screen.  So I thought some weird boot
system prevents me from seeing what's going on or giving me options, so
in effect I lost access to all other installed systems.

With a clean head and a different pc I went in as root and looked on the
usb what the grub config looked like and simply replaced the high
resolution to an 800x600 and delayed the default boot sequence just in case.

Siduction ... the best grub-configuration I have seen yet, once you can
get to it and edit it :)

Sorry Siduction!
kAt

PS  But you (siduction) should lower your graphics expectations down a
notch or two.  There are some 1024 monitors still around.

PS2  Maybe a way to scale back and confirm visibility of the grub menu
before it boots the default may help, if you MUST high a high definition
grub screen.

PS3  Being more confident I can back up and restore my experimentation
with siduction really did help as well ;)  dd/xorriso and all!

PS4  More than a week ago when I subscribed to their forum "I asked" on
why would their installer not run on very similar systems.  Never
thought the monitor was IT.  I got no response from them ... but I
assume small teams of developers can't address everyone's complaints.



GiaThnYgeia:
> The past few Fridays it has become my joy for the weekend to install in
> small drives some debian based distro ...  I tried Q4os and siduction
> ... the experience has been a disastrous weekend over another ...  I'm
> done playing with this stuff.  I'm sticking with debian and all I'll
> play with from now on is different phases of it stable/testing/unstable
> 
> ***  All the shortcuts some of those distros make around debian
> procedures and all the funky stuff the employ seem much more trouble
> than it is worth ***
> 
> Although I have to admit that Kali in a virtual machine on a 32bit
> debian seemed pretty good ... but all of its tools are pretty useless
> for me.  I just wanted to see what it is like...
> 
> I still want to figure out how to make backup images with xorriso as it
> seems it may be very handy when risking to break the system.
> 
> my 2c
> kAt
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso

I changed the rights 0755 to this lost+ and it got stuck to an other
folder and contents that had only root/owner  privileges
So I decided to run the whole script as sudo or sudo xorriso and it
seems the problem is solved.

Should I attempt to rebuild it to a test disk to see if it reliable?

Thomas Schmitt:
> Whatever, this is a local filesystem problem which we may try to
> circumvent by omitting the offending file object.
> 
>xorriso \
>-for_backup \
>-outdev usb_part1.iso \
>-not_paths /media/user/sid/lost+found -- \
>-map /media/user/sid /
> 

xorriso : UPDATE : Writing:1925120s   99.8%   fifo 100%  buf  50%
24.2xD
ISO image produced: 1927897 sectors
Written to medium : 1928064 sectors at LBA 32
Writing to 'usb_part2.iso' completed successfully.

ISO image produced: 1927897 sectors
Written to medium : 1928064 sectors at LBA 32
Writing to 'usb_part1.iso' completed successfully.


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso

I'll have to learn how to do this trick to (read the fine code of your
email that is that scraps the rest)

Thomas Schmitt:
>  ls -ld /media/user/sid/lost+found

I ommitted some of the usual stuff  with drwxr-xr-x (the C; is a
joke of course for user@machinename)

What is that + at .. root-directory?  Mounting point?

C;/media/user/sid$  ls -ld /media/user/sid/lost+found
drwx-- 2 root root 16384 Mar 10 03:21 /media/user/sid/lost+found
C;/media/user/sid$ ls -ld /media/user/sid
drwxr-xr-x 24 root root 4096 Mar 10 03:05 /media/user/sid
C;/media/user/sid$ ls -alt -ld /media/user/sid
drwxr-xr-x 24 root root 4096 Mar 10 03:05 /media/user/sid
C;/media/user/sid$ ls -alt /media/user/sid
total 124
drwxr-x---+   5 root root  4096 Mar 13 13:52 ..
drwxr-xr-x  122 root root 12288 Mar 13 04:27 etc
drwx--9 root root  4096 Mar 12 15:51 root
drwxr-xr-x3 root root  4096 Mar 11 18:03 boot
drwxr-xr-x2 root root 12288 Mar 11 15:04 sbin
...
drwxr-xr-x3 root root  4096 Mar 11 14:51 media
drwxr-xr-x2 root root  4096 Mar 10 13:55 bin
drwxrwxrwt2 root root  4096 Mar 10 04:43 tmp
drwxr-xr-x3 root root  4096 Mar 10 04:24 home
drwxr-xr-x2 root root  4096 Mar 10 03:22 mnt
...
drwxr-xr-x2 root root  4096 Mar 10 03:22 proc
drwx--2 root root 16384 Mar 10 03:21 lost+found
drwxr-xr-x   24 root root  4096 Mar 10 03:05 .
-rw-r--r--1 root root 0 Mar 10 03:05 .xorgconfig-was-here
.
drwxr-xr-x2 root root  4096 Mar  5 20:24 lib64
..
drwxr-xr-x   11 root root  4096 Mar  5 20:24 var
C;/media/user/sid$ ls -ld /media/user/sid/lost+found
drwx-- 2 root root 16384 Mar 10 03:21 /media/user/sid/lost+found
C;/media/user/sid$  ls -ld /media/user/sid/lost+found
C;/media/user/sid$  ls -ld /media/user/sid/
drwxr-xr-x 24 root root 4096 Mar 10 03:05 /media/user/sid/
C;/media/user/sid$  ls -ld /media/user/sid/root
drwx-- 9 root root 4096 Mar 12 15:51 /media/user/sid/root
C;/media/user/sid$  ls -ld /media/user/sid/.xorg*
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Mar 10 03:05 /media/user/sid/.xorgconfig-was-here

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso

2017-03-12 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Thomas Schmitt:
> Hi,
> i wrote:
>>> bunzip2  
> GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> bunzip2 imagefile | dd of=/dev/sdb
> 
> The small but decisive difference is the "<" in my example.

My fault, I thought it was brackets to remind me to enter my own
filename and the second one was missing ;)

> My example gives bunzip2 no file path, so that it begins to read from
> standard input and writes to standard output. bunzip2's standard
> input is redirected from file "imagefile". The standard output of
> bunzip2 is then piped to standard input of dd, which due to lack of
> option "if=" reads it. dd option "of=" then directs the data to /dev/sdb,
> the USB stick's device file.

Makes perfect sense now!

> Your command gives bunzip2 the file path "imagefile" which means that
> you want this file to be uncompressed. Any standard output from bunzip2
> is piped to to dd which would copy it to /dev/sdb.
> But i guess there were no bytes written to bunzip's standard output.

I tried to improvise to get it to work in between "sessions" and I
couldn't see what it was doing so I can correct it.  A long time to wait
for 0 output.

>> it unzipped the imagefile into an uncompress file
> 
> The man page iof bzip2 says:
> "bunzip2 (or bzip2 -d) decompresses all specified  files.

Going back and forth in help documents I realized this although I have
learned to not assume much.

>  As  with  compression, supplying no filenames causes decompression from
>  standard input to standard output."

...aka screen dump?

>> and burned it ...
> 
> The file ? The USB stick ?
> Not with flames and smoke, i hope ...

It got really close to being recycled ... :)

>> bunzip2 imagefile  -f -t -v | dd of=/dev/sdb
> 
> Well, option -t means:
>   -t --test
>   Check  integrity  of the specified file(s), but don't decompress
>   them.  This really performs a  trial  decompression  and  throws
>   away the result.
> 
> So this run did nothing, i suppose.

Yeap!

> In what state is "imagefile" now ? Compressed ? Uncompressed ? Ashes ?
> (It is preferrable to marke bzip2'ed files by suffix .bz2, which bunzip2
>  will remove when replacing the compressed file by the decompressed file.)

Now it is at the state of being all thrown to trashcan (too big for it
so it gets deleted permanently) and a new project will begin sometime
next week 

>> $ ls -ld /mnt/u*
>> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Nov 24 11:14
>> /mnt/usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1
> 
> I simply have no clue why "xorriso -follow param" would then complain
> about a (one single) file with a newline character in its path:
>   /media/user/DebonUSB
>   /usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1

I think it was that dreadful Calamares installer that came with this sid
distro that locks onto the disk and prevents ovewriting.
But when I tried to install it in a small partition of the disk and used
its installation option of encrypting  guess what?  It took the
passphrase and when it was done I entered it like there was no
encryption at all ...  I thought it would go somehow in the grub menu
and ask me for a pass to boot it, it ruined my grub, it would boot up
directly not giving me an option for the other installations, and go
straight into the login screen.

But the usb was so hard locked that gparted would erase its partition,
change the file system, rechange and repartition, and the thing was
still there.  So I burned a debian installation disk on it, then
repaired everything on hd, and deleted any evidence (I think) that
siduction even came close to the system.

>>>> xorriso : FAILURE : Cannot determine attributes of source file
>>>> '/media/user/DebonUSB
>>>> /usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1'
> 
>>> Is the line break between "DebonUSB" and "/usb-Kingston" visible on the
>>> terminal screen, too ? Or is it an artefact of copy+paste ?
>> I changed it so it is easier to deal with
> 
> This is not an answer to my question.
> Is the reported address a single line
>   
> /media/user/DebonUSB/usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1
> or is it reported as two lines:
>   /media/user/DebonUSB
>   /usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1
> ?

No it is all connected line and I don't think I can change this.  But so
much for the serial number theory as two different disks have the same
exact address.  That gets really confusing if you don't change the
labels on them.

> The reason why i ask is that i wonder from where xorriso has this
> strange two-line path.  It would be explainable if yo

Re: [OT]Re: why??why?why??

2017-03-12 Thread GiaThnYgeia

The past few Fridays it has become my joy for the weekend to install in
small drives some debian based distro ...  I tried Q4os and siduction
... the experience has been a disastrous weekend over another ...  I'm
done playing with this stuff.  I'm sticking with debian and all I'll
play with from now on is different phases of it stable/testing/unstable

***  All the shortcuts some of those distros make around debian
procedures and all the funky stuff the employ seem much more trouble
than it is worth ***

Although I have to admit that Kali in a virtual machine on a 32bit
debian seemed pretty good ... but all of its tools are pretty useless
for me.  I just wanted to see what it is like...

I still want to figure out how to make backup images with xorriso as it
seems it may be very handy when risking to break the system.

my 2c
kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso

2017-03-12 Thread GiaThnYgeia

I am getting a little frustrated as neither dd or xorriso work for me as
I wanted.  With the dd and bzip2 combination I got an image really fast
(compared to dd if=.. of=.. ) but when I tried to restore it
dd bs=1M if=/dev/sdb | bzip2 >imagefile
bunzip2 imagefile | dd of=/dev/sdb

it unzipped the imagefile into an uncompress file and burned it ...
although I am not sure what I mixed up in the filenames it restored an
earlier on...

bunzip2 imagefile  -f -t -v | dd of=/dev/sdb

I think this option retains the original compressed image and show what
is doing, although to me the -v is meaningless.

Thomas Schmitt:
> Hi,
> 
> GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> $ xorriso -indev sid1.iso -find / -exec lsdl --
>> ...
>> drwxr-xr-x1 00   0 Nov 24 11:14 '/'
>> On media this shows the 2nd system partition as a directory
>> /media/user/1340a59d-7c08-4257-a81d-9cb8ef707c0e
> 
> Last time you showed it, it was as empty as the ISO.
> What do you get from
> 
>   ls -ld /media/user/1340a59d-7c08-4257-a81d-9cb8ef707c0e

I changed the volume name to sid

$ ls -ld /media/user/sid
drwxr-xr-x 1 user user 2048 Mar  5 20:30 /media/user/sid
$ ls -ld /mnt
$ ls /mnt
usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1
$ ls -ld /mnt/u*
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Nov 24 11:14
/mnt/usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1
$ ls -ld /media/user/sid
drwxr-xr-x 1 user user 2048 Mar  5 20:30 /media/user/sid
$

> 
> 
>>>   xorriso -for_backup -follow default:param ...
> 
>> xorriso : FAILURE : Cannot determine attributes of source file
>> '/media/user/DebonUSB
>> /usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1' : No
>> such file or directory
> 
> Very strange file address. It is probably the result of link following.
> Thus my request to do "ls -ld".

It seems as if it is hardware created and can't be changed

> Is the line break between "DebonUSB" and "/usb-Kingston" visible on the
> terminal screen, too ? Or is it an artefact of copy+paste ?

I changed it so it is easier to deal with

> (I am very happy that i disabled automounting on my system. Life becomes
>  so clear and straightforward if one does it the old way.)

Being protective of the setup I have on the little disk I am trying to
restore its image in an identical disk (manufacturer and size)
Only when I get convinced that the restored image is identical (looks
and function) will I be able to go ahead to do more.  No I am worried
I'll ruin all the work and I will not have a last safe image to restore to.

> Have a nice day :)
> Thomas

You have a better one

katkat

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso

2017-03-11 Thread GiaThnYgeia

I am nearly giving up, can't understand what I am doing wrong or what I
should be doing.

Thomas Schmitt:
> Hi,
> 
> GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> Is something wrong?  
>> -rw-r--r--  1 user 458752 Mar  9 00:08 usb_part1.iso
> 
> That's much too small for any backup with substance.
> What do you get from
> 
>   xorriso -indev usb_part1.iso -find / -exec lsdl --

$ xorriso -indev sid1.iso -find / -exec lsdl --
xorriso 1.4.6 : RockRidge filesystem manipulator, libburnia project.

xorriso : NOTE : Loading ISO image tree from LBA 0
Drive current: -indev 'sid1.iso'
Media current: stdio file, overwriteable
Media status : is written , is appendable
Media summary: 1 session, 27 data blocks, 54.0k data,  458g free
Volume id: 'ISOIMAGE'
drwxr-xr-x1 00   0 Nov 24 11:14 '/'

On media this shows the 2nd system partition as a directory
/media/user/1340a59d-7c08-4257-a81d-9cb8ef707c0e



> 
> Is the USB stick content visible underneath
>   /mnt/usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1 
> at all ?
> 
> If the mount point was really a link, one would have to enable link
> following at least for files which are given as program arguments:
> 
>   xorriso \
>   -for_backup \
>   -follow default:param \
>   -outdev usb_part1.iso \
>   -map /mnt/usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1 /

xorriso 1.4.6 : RockRidge filesystem manipulator, libburnia project.

Drive current: -outdev 'siduct1.iso'
Media current: stdio file, overwriteable
Media status : is written , is appendable
Media summary: 1 session, 27 data blocks, 54.0k data,  458g free
xorriso : FAILURE : Cannot determine attributes of source file
'/media/user/DebonUSB
/usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1' : No
such file or directory



> But with default -follow settings you would have gotten an error message:
>   xorriso : FAILURE : Source '/mnt/usb-...' is not a directory. Target '' 
> would be.
> 
> So i assume that the USB stick content was simply not available under
> the /mnt/usb-... directory.
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> Thomas

You have a great one too!
I;m going back to try more dd options

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: why??why?why??

2017-03-10 Thread GiaThnYgeia



Shahryar Afifi:
> 
> why o why...
> why debian keeps getting fancier like other operating system.
> debian is a linux machine, not some toy like apple.
> we dont need gnome 3 taking too much ram, in fact we dont need any graphical 
> runtime. 
> they dont wanna support  the poor wheezy for what ??? and why ??
> its the most stable OS ever.. thats why they called it old stable.
> why cant i add libpam-fprindt 1:0.5 to my wheezy so i can run my fingerprint 
> ??
> why nautilus in jessie is so fancy ??
> when i work on my wheezy, everything is just right even when they say "its 
> init and PID runs one by one" so what.. its a computer and should look like 
> and act like a computer.
> i dont wanna give up my reliability to some fancy mancy..
> :(

At least you recognize that debian is linux and it is not unix, because
Gnu is not unix either.  Again, I still know very little, but looking at
the huge bug list for every system, edition, phase, etc.  all I see is a
list of problems.  Not a list of how to make it funkier and hipier.  If
I recall X-windows predated linux by far, it is not a debian invention.
Openbox is something new. So this thing evolves as new problems are
discovered and get solved.  Sometimes the only way to overcome many
problems together is to scrap the previous design and start a new one.
And that will be the next version of sid or debian 11.
And there will be a day when all the problems in stretch will no longer
be feasible patched and solved and it will become old-stable.

It is like old red biplanes with a Rolls Royce multicylinder radial.
They will not do Mach-iii

Now if you are running a server on your trusty reliable wheezy and some
fascist hacker wants to shut you up, locates a weakness in your system
and gets in and turns your machine into lasagna ...  wouldn't be better
to have something funkier that the hacker can't affect?

Rχ/

PS  I nearly forgot, my tired eyes can't read shell output for too long,
I like my customizable funky guis with variable colors and fonts and
graphical representation instead of hexadecimal chains.

> SH.A
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: why??why?why??

2017-03-10 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Jimmy Johnson:
> On 03/10/2017 12:46 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:20:32 -0500 Henning 
>> wrote:
>>> Why don't you just custom install to meet your needs?
>>
>>  I did just that  With Wheezy, 5 years ago.  And I got the system I
>> wanted.  But it's not a "forever" solution.  Wheezy support will
>> cease when Stretch becomes Stable.  And along with it support for
>> applications like browsers, too.  Chrome development and support ended
>> last year.  Read Firefox will do the same this year or next.  Don't
>> remember exactly.
>>
>> Nothing is forever.  And I'm looking for a replacement that fits my
>> requirements.
> 
> I replaced Wheezy with Ubuntu 14.04, the first thing I do is $'sudo
> passwd root' after that I feel right at home and can install all the
> software that I use in both Wheezy and Jessie and the theme's too. I see
> no difference in stability. The 14.04 mini.iso is the way to start and
> get the base package and build from there. I build all my systems from
> the base install including this one.

Is this all open?  Is it all free?  If you say yes I'll have to go and
look at what that is.  If you say no, but who cares.  I'll have to say
that, with the very little I know and understand, in a few years after
debian folds, there will be nothing open or free.  There may be some
bootleg old and hacked copies of debian and an Ubuntu license will be
just a little cheaper than an MXS license.  And development in general
will go downhill.

Question, of what I do not know.  If you have Debian 6 (don't recall the
name) with all the backports enabled and up to date, if you download
Firefox51, will it run?

I recently took a look of siduction, which seems basically as sid with
some funkified packages, and some non-free stuff on top, like firmware.
It managed to identify and run some wifi gadget that I never got really
working in debian.  It is beautiful, even some stuff I have hacked
myself to make it work how I want to they have done.  Is it worth it?
How many people right now are looking and studying the code that makes
up the linux-patch?  I have faith that hundreds are scrutinizing the
debian code beyond what debian developers do.

I wouldn't though even would want to ask here  why is my damn debian
installer package not working.  I have studied and installed anything
that I could possibly find out needed to make it run.  It doesn't.
On a different debian based distro, I downloaded and run it and it
worked perfectly.  So I am contradicting my own "political" position.
Debian is not for everyone.  It is a developers' system.  It is a solid
foundation to build systems for those few that know how to do it.

And then there is this other thing.  It is only a few years ago that MS
sold Win7 for big money, for non-commercial home use.  And they are not
even supporting their own web browser to run on that flea-dog.  And I
don't think anything based on w10 will run on 7.  Nobody is asking for
their money back ... and even if they did 

Rχ/

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso | now xorriso help

2017-03-09 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Thomas Schmitt:
> Hi,
> 
> i forgot to adapt my xorriso example from a few days ago:
> 
>   xorriso \
>   -for_backup \
>   -outdev usb_part1.iso \
>   -map /mnt/usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1 /

Ok, my drive has grown from 1,7gB to about 2GB since the last try with
DD which produced an image equal to the drive, 7,7gB and took for ever.

This run in a second and produced an iso that is about half a MB.  Is
something wrong?

-rw-r--r--  1 user 458752 Mar  9 00:08 usb_part1.iso


> 
> Note that the last "/" is not a misspelled "\" but the path to the
> upcomming ISO's root directory. The "\" tell the shell that the command
> line goes on in the next input line.
> 
> This will create the (probably large) file usb_part1.iso, which you
> can mount (as superuser) by:
> 
>   mkdir /mnt/usb_part1_iso
>   mount -o loop /where/it/is/usb_part1.iso /mnt/usb_part1_iso
> 
> with "/where/it/is" replaced by the absolute path to the ISO image file.
> Then the file tree copy should show up under /mnt/usb_part1_iso .
> 
> If you have a DVD drive, with e.g. address /dev/sr0 and a DVD+RW in it,
> then you may write directly to the DVD:
> 
>   xorriso \
>   -for_backup \
>   -outdev /dev/sr0 \
>   -blank as_needed \
>   -map /mnt/usb-Kingston_DataTraveler_3.0_08606E69C773BFC06965007B-0:0-part1 /
> 
> "-blank as_needed" will enable overwriting of old content on the DVD+RW
> or blank a DVD-RW. With DVD+RW or formatted DVD-RW, it will be fast.
> With unformatted DVD-RW it will last as long as a full write run.
> DVD-R or DVD+R are usable if not yet written by other burn runs.
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Kerberos boot error - no log file

2017-03-08 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Anyone knows where this kerberos detailed log might be.  I can't find it.

Failed to start Kerberos 5 Key Distribution Center.
See 'systemctl status krb5-kdc.service' for details.

I found this on the boot.log

And the following somewhere else:

Mar  8 11:04:35 G0 systemd[1]: Starting Kerberos 5 Key Distribution
Center...
Mar  8 11:04:36 G0 krb5kdc[493]: krb5kdc: cannot initialize realm
ATHENA.MIT.EDU - see log file for details
Mar  8 11:04:36 G0 systemd[1]: krb5-kdc.service: Control process exited,
code=exited status=1
Mar  8 11:04:36 G0 systemd[1]: Failed to start Kerberos 5 Key
Distribution Center.
Mar  8 11:04:36 G0 systemd[1]: krb5-kdc.service: Unit entered failed state.
Mar  8 11:04:36 G0 systemd[1]: krb5-kdc.service: Failed with result
'exit-code'.



-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso

2017-03-08 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Hello, this is OP speaking :)

Thomas Schmitt:
> Hi,
> 
> David Wright wrote:
>> Forgive me for asking, but have you read the OP?
> 
> Yep. It's a daredevil situation. "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead"

I promise to be more cautious on my next life, maybe a cheetah laying in
the sun all day.

>> I can't see
>> the sense of backing up a filesystem to an image file and then, for
>> the sake of it, using the image file to overwrite the original filesystem.
> 
> If all went well, then nothing changed on the filesystem.

Why overwrite an original system?  The system is there for a purpose, to
provide you with the necessary tools to get other things done.  The
system for the shake of the system is for tool-lovers who never get
anything fixed.  If you see a clean sparkling toolbox you are either
looking at a lazy mechanic or someone who doesn't have the ability.

I sense there are many amongst this community who just idolize the tool.

> But yes, kids don't do this at home ... unless you have a good reason.

The idea is for the important things you do on a computer to be
organized and available despite of what the system is.  If you can use 3
different systems to work and utilize the same data ... what's the problem?

>> What would constitute a pass, and what would distinguish a fail?
> 
> The experimental setup seems sub-optimal for now.
> Maybe one should make a list of file MD5s before the experiment for
> comparing with the MD5s of the files afterwards.

That is on my todo list, the list of things I SHAll do if there is merit
to the experiment.  For now all I want to avoid is building the system
from scratch, so I am backing up successful transformations.  And I do
this with a minimalistic approach, which to me is openbox, as I
desperately need some gui stuff running.  On my main system I have LXDE.

>> There was no indication that the stick had been used for something
>> else in the interim.

Not unless I run out of sticks :)  But a stick is a cheap alternative of
destroying a flash-drive.  Hard disks don't like certain living
conditions and are too bulky and energy consuming.

> That would be my valid use case, by which i tried to demonstrate that a
> block-by-block copy can be a suitable backup format under certain
> circumstances.

My use is about 96% backing up the image and only when things fall apart
will there be a restoring attempt.  But what good would saving multiple
successive images be if none can be ever restored?  At this early stage
I wanted to be able to shutdown, move to system B backup (in less than a
couple of hours) and return and do some more messing around.

>> Yes, yes, this is back to the technical details of making copies.
> But we are on computers. Technical details matter.

I remember, and do correct me, that back in the early stages of
installing debian I tried to install it on USB and it was denied.  The
detail I don't remember was that whether I tried it on a second device
or did I try to install from a live installer to a partition within the
same.  At some point I thought that grub would pick the HD installed
systems, the live one, and the USB installation.  I don't know whether
it is the installer that can't handle it or whether Debian does not
allow you to do so.  I have seen debian distros that do allow you though
and part of my experiment is to be able to wash off their stuff and
return to debian clean.  Some seem more resisting than others.
But it is possible, and through such attempts I learn more and more
about the system itself.  I am done playing with VMs, they seem as a
waste of time and resources to me.

>>> UPS
>> ...which cost EUR...?

I have one on my main personal system and it I can make UPSs better than
those in the market for less.  I do see the point, if power fails
through the dd process the image is junk, but the USB didn't fail, it
just gets backed up when the good power people decide to send juice
again.  I can live without the PC, my fish will not survive without
aeration for too long and I am too lazy or may be away to feed them with
aerated water.

> "There is no such thing as a free lunch"

Yes there is, if you know how to kick start the ecosystem it can be full
of free lunch, but don't tell your boss.  Let him think he can terrorize
you by sending you to some hunger hell.  Especially if he is in the
business of making rope you don't want to alert him too early.

> Have a nice day :)
> Thomas

The day is young, this fork of the subject is not part of the the OP's
true thread, of how best to get it done.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso

2017-03-07 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Thomas Schmitt:
> Hi,
> 
> GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> 2.1  Block by block, [...] erased data on
>> an empty block can be recovered because they are not zero.  Correct?
> 
> If not the filesystem overwrote the content of deleted files
> the problem will still be to find the content you are interested in.

Good to know, but no I am not looking for deleted data.

>> 2.2  If a block is zeroed it can't be unzeroed?
> 
> Not by normal means. You have to be aware that especially solid state
> disks like USB keys have an own physical block management which might
> delay the overwriting further.

So each manufacturer may have a different internal system but the output
is standardized.  So we don't really know what goes on in there, right?
I had gone down the isle of trying to read chips and modifying them (1
to break printer out of ink pseudo blocks - 2 to look into internal
ignition/injection maps for vehicle modification) but I gave up early
for not been able to locate proper instruments.  One of the reasons that
I got back on computing and away from windowz.

>> So 4gb full of data in 1 partition with 4gb
>> of empty but encrypted partition is treated the same as 4gb full of
>> data,  Correct?
> 
> Well, an encrypted partition should be much less compressable than an
> empty unencrypted one. Encryption shall camouflage the true content.
> So it can hardly represent all zeros as a similarly redundant byte set.

Aaahh.. so part of the trick is filling in fake data so you can't tell
the real ones, I get it.  I think!

>>> dd if=/dev/sdb | bzip2 >usbfilename.img
>> So the of=usbfilename is replaced by the | bzip2?
> 
> Yes. If dd has no of= argument then it writes its data to standard
> output, which is normally your terminal window.

The matrix :)  The real thing.

> But "|" establishes a pipe. It connects standard output of dd with
> standard input of program bzip2. (That standard input would normally
> be your keyboard and its Enter key.)
> Since bzip2 gets no file name argument it reads from its standard input
> and writes the compression result to its standard output.
> But the ">" redirects the standard output of bzip2 to the data file
> usbfilename.img.
> So you do not get printed a lot of text salad on your terminal but
> there rather emerges a data file with compressed content.

OK, perfect sense.

> This connecting and redirecting of output is done by the shell, not by
> the programs dd and bzip2.

So it is like combining various processes and their inputs and outputs
into one, which is the final product the user needs.

>>> When you put it back on the USB stick, you need to uncompress:
>> I will report back ... I'm willing to try this on my 1.8gb system
> 
> Be careful not to spoil irrepairable data.

Well at this point it is all experimentation so I know how to do it
right when I need to.

>> I have yet to see anything been written
>> in the swap area.
> 
> Maybe your computer has lots of RAM or the swap is not in use ?
> (What does shell command "free" report ? Is ther a line starting with
>  "Swap:" and giving three numbers ?)

I didn't know of this command, all I could see was the partition always
being empty. I suppose things get written and deleted (swapped) only
when RAmemory runs out.  And I thought only ms-win did such silly things.

>> maybe due to systemd it is no longer being used?
> 
> Systemd is a convenient suspect for everything. But i doubt that it
> can make swap space obsolete when the RAM does not suffice.

$free
  totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
available
Mem:3884232 1596976  302428  135400 1984828
1864344
Swap: 0   0   0

Tried it on a stressed out 32bit VBox system and  it was not 0 0 0  but
I had only given it 1gB of RAM.

>> 1M used to be big!
> 
> Yeah ... Love, 36 bit, and punched cards ...

Before that in a machine shop CNC machine I wrote code into a paper tape
with 5 columns of holes. Like a 70s Telex machine
In the mid-90s I took a turn to work OUT with hands and tools and no
digits.  Now I am back at easy comfortable air/conditioned life, red-hat
is still around, and multi-processing things and satas and all kinds of
crazy stuff I need to catch up with.

>> I am willing to bet that this dd goes back to backing up hard drives
> 
> Its origin is in IBM's Job Control Language. From there it came to early
> Unix when there were still unused combinations of two letters. "cp", "ls",
> "dd", "cc", "ld" ... "cat" is of course an example of wastefulness.

I never touched any VMs ... the machine owners were DEC customers, and
we did alot of work on VT100s with real hard

Re: Some help with dd backing up into an iso

2017-03-07 Thread GiaThnYgeia

I'd like to thank in advance ALL that responded, I think this is
valuable for an archive of a manual for the nearly illiterate.

Thomas Schmitt:
> GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>>> I used dd if=/dev/sdb of=usbfilename.iso
>>> The resulting image was the full size of the disk.
> 
> That's the job of dd: Copying block by block.
> 
> As David stated, the file usbfilename.iso will not be an ISO 9660 filesystem
> but rather a disk image. 

I have 3 encyclopedic questions based on this.  I noticed the difference
as I saved my first try.  With other "factory" iso images I can see most
of their contents with an archive program, this indicated a different
beast.  Although my restoration seemed to have worked fine but took for
ever.

1  So an img file does not matter what extension it has, it can be zzz
and it would be recognized as an image.  Correct?  The iso image is a
specific imaging system of cd/dvd format.

2.
  2.1  Block by block, and as it is mentioned in other responses about
zero-ing empty blocks, am I to understand correctly that erased data on
an empty block can be recovered because they are not zero.  Correct?

  2.2  If a block is zeroed it can't be unzeroed?  Is this what they
mean by deep cleaning/erasing?  That simple?  I remember in dos all it
took to make a block available was to take the first letter off of the
file name and it would vanish, unless someone put it back. UNDELETE!

3  If an encrypted partition is included in the image, empty or not, it
would be treated as a chunk of blocks that can't be altered without
being corrupted.  Correct?  So 4gb full of data in 1 partition with 4gb
of empty but encrypted partition is treated the same as 4gb full of
data,  Correct?

> David Christensen wrote:
>> dd if=/dev/sda | gzip > myimage.img
> 
> The name suffix .img is more appropriate than .iso, indeed.
> If your USB stick contains a lot of blocks with zeros, you may get even
> better compression by using bzip2 instead of gzip:
> 
>   dd if=/dev/sdb | bzip2 >usbfilename.img

So the of=usbfilename is replaced by the | bzip2?

> Zeroing the unused blocks before running dd will normally improve the
> compression ratio and thus yield an even smaller .img file.
> 
> When you put it back on the USB stick, you need to uncompress:
> 
>   bunzip2  This will recreate your two partitions and the filesystems which reside in
> them.

You must be reading my mind, this is a bootable system, with a swap area
partition and the file system.  I have yet to see anything been written
in the swap area.  Is debian carrying this from an old functionality and
maybe due to systemd it is no longer being used?  Or it is getting used
only by certain applications.  I made it half the default size in case I
see it get used and be insufficient. I'm going to shrink it some more :)

> By default dd copies chunks of 512 bytes.
> Changing to 1 MiB chunks by dd option
>   bs=1M
> might speed up copying substantially.

1M used to be big!  I remember the excitement over the huge and mostly
unusable Double Density 1,4MB disks that replaced the paper 512KB double
sided monsters.  I wonder if kids would laugh at the sight of one.  I am
willing to bet that this dd goes back to backing up hard drives one
5.25" disk at the time.  And now we have 4mB empty files. I just created
out of curiosity an empty file and called it x.odt. It was 20bytes.  I
opened it with LibrOffice and saved it. It became an empty 10kB file.

>> I looked at the disk and
>> it seemed complete with all files in tact, so maybe I killed it
>> somewhere in the verification process.
> 
> There is no verification process with plain dd.

I assumed there might be because there was nothing messed up by my
premature interruption.  Etcher (https://etcher.io/) after finishing
went back and "verified" the whole thing, I guess the empty blocks as
well.  I suspect it is a fork of xorriso which I have downloaded but had
too many gaps in knowledge to understand how to use its options.
Etcher-electron is a tool for restoring images not for making them.
usbootin was too flaky and was dumped long ago.

> Probably you successfully copied the first partition and the directory
> tree of the second one. It has to be expected that not all files in the
> second partition bear their original content, because it was not copied.

True, if the data was less than 25% of the whole it was probably halfway
through copying the empty blocks!

>> Is there someway one can avoid creating such a large iso for no reason,
>> when the filesize is a fraction of the whole disk.
> 
> That's called backup and archiving.
> While the filesystem is mounted but fewly busy, you let a program read
> the files and pack them up in that program's archive format.

I may be unclear on this, my system was running on sda backing up a
different system on sdb

Some help with dd backing up into an iso

2017-03-06 Thread GiaThnYgeia

I am not very confident I am doing this right and it seems wrong,  I
can't locate any documentation that results into proper options.
I tried backing up an 8gb USB that has 2 partitions in it, one had 1.7gb
of data on it.
I used dd if=/dev/sdb of=usbfilename.iso
The resulting image was the full size of the disk.
To test the validity I restored reversing the order of the filenames
if/of  but that took for ever and it was a hog on resources.  After a
while I just gave up and killed the process.  I looked at the disk and
it seemed complete with all files in tact, so maybe I killed it
somewhere in the verification process.
So I used a program called etcher which I have used with 100% success in
the past and was surprisingly fast in burning images.
It took for ever as well, eventually it run a verification routine and
it was done.
Is there someway one can avoid creating such a large iso for no reason,
when the filesize is a fraction of the whole disk.  One way I thought of
was to shrink the partitions to just about 99% full, and leave the blank
part of the disk as not allocated.  Would that help?
Is there some fancy command line that does just that?

Thank you in advance




-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: [SOLVED] Re: Security hole in LXDE?

2017-03-06 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Greg Wooledge:
> On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 06:31:46PM +, Joe wrote:
>> Debian appears to use the group 'sudo' as an administrative group,
>> where some other distributions use 'wheel'.
>>
>> I would not have thought that users would be added to it by default,
>> there are no members on my sid/xfce4 workstation. Indeed, up to Jessie,
>> sudo was not installed at all by default, and may still not be.
> 
> If you use the regular Debian installer, the user account that you
> create during installation gets added to a lot of these special groups
> (sudo, cdrom, floppy, audio, video, ...?).  Users that you create
> post-installtion using adduser or useradd do not.

On an Debian-lxde installer you are asked for a root pass and then a
username/pass
As I remember before you manually add a user in the user group the sudo
command results to error.  Before I figured it out I had to use su
instead and any admin-package required user:root and pass to run.  After
adding a user in the sudo list all such packages ask for the user's
pass.  I think it is a sensible policy.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT

ΟΚ!

Gene Heskett:
> On Sunday 05 March 2017 15:18:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> 
>> Back to shanity, how does a microphone produce an electrical wave that
>> can be translated into sound and how a wave may take the form of
>> electrical current that produces sound through a speaker? 
> 
> Very simple. With the glaring exception of the modern AC induction motor 
> that in 99% of the stuff we buy, ANY other generator can also be used as 
> a motor, including the ultra cheap electret condenser microphones, ditto 
> any speaker, including the peizo tweeters, is also a microphone.  Its 
> part of the basic physics everything we use works by.

So, are you saying the standard motherboard beeper/speaker (the one that
beeps when you hit too many keys at once or that bios is telling you I
am booting up ... any minute now bepp) is a microphone that feeds
sound back into the system and mysteriously debian is allowing it to be
recognized as an input device.

I do not claim to have reinvented the wheel here, but how can this be
acceptable if it does hold any truth?

> Cheers, Gene Heskett

kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT

Curt:
> 
> In case this wasn't clear: we're imagining clay being fashioned upon a
> potter's wheel, and the striations that occur in the clay as it is
> molded (which might possibly produce, according to Charpak's conjecture,
> a sort of analog audio recording of ambient sounds in the finished
> product, e.g.--"Hey Mosche, got any more of that Egyptian beer we were
> drinking the other day?" spoken in some obsolete language no one has
> ever heard before).

I don't know about clay, it sounds more probable that prehistoric voices
affected reflected light to the universe and its returning reflection
may incorporate data that when decoded may reveal those voices.  In
other words some prehistoric sounds may not be heard yet.

Back to shanity, how does a microphone produce an electrical wave that
can be translated into sound and how a wave may take the form of
electrical current that produces sound through a speaker?  It is not
like particle acceleration science, it is stuff that many guitarists now
and most guitar repair-persons know.  The question that is relevant to
the list is why would a security minded system allow such noise to be
communicated?  Whatever that noise is, it shouldn't be there, as if it
is there it can be anywhere.

Your appeal for case dismissal is denied!

By the way, it takes about 3' to download FMIT or something similar,
lower the db cutoffs and increase the frequency range and if it is not
there we may have something to compare.  I don't readily have a laptop
with a battery strong enough to stay on without AC, I assume they have
less electrical noise.  My noise is around 21,5KHz-23KHz with an
emphasis around 22,2...  which can't be random, but abrupt vibrations on
the case register within that noise wave.  We are in the 220v/50hz
world, so it would be interesting what the noise freq. is on 110v/60Hz

... wait did you hear that?  It is the noise of your world crumbling ;)

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Recomended tutoial(s) on doing arithmetic in Bash scripts

It is Sunday and I don't like Mondays
tell me why

to...@tuxteam.de:
> Hm. Neither expr nor bc are bash, they are "external" binaries. If you
> want to do arithmetic in bash, there's $((...)):
> 
>   tomas@rasputin:~$ echo $(( (3+4)/3 ))
>   2

I see your 2 and raise you
nosuchagency@bottomofthesea:~$ echo $(((30+40)/3))
23

Infinitely inaccurate digital systems

> -- tomás

kAt

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: [SOLVED = YES thnx2Frank] www.deb-multimedia.org testing or stretch Release' does not have a Release file

Luckily I have not used any package from them, no wonder it was so hard
for me to include their rep.

I guess I fell for it being included in the debian main mirrors before
and thought it was an internal project that became autonomous.

There is also an AV-linux distro for AV people, I don't know if they
just made a debian based distro with multimedia stuff.

Too many layers of interdependence between all these packages, enough to
destroy one's mind before the system breaks.  If someone is working on a
bug on sound or graphics hardware it seems as if for that industry it is
like messing around with the foundations of a high-rise building.




-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: [SOLVED = YES thnx2Frank] www.deb-multimedia.org testing or stretch Release' does not have a Release file

SOLVED=YES LEARNING A NEW TRICK=YES YES YES

Frank:
> Op 04-03-17 om 16:59 schreef GiaThnYgeia:
>> http://www.deb-multimedia.org/dists testing Release' does not have a
>> Release file
>>
>> The repository 'http://www.deb-multimedia.org/dists testing Release'
>> does not have a Release file.
> 
> What does your deb-multimedia entry in sources.list look like exactly?
> These two lines suggest apt is looking for the Release file of a
> component called 'Release' in the suite 'testing'

I tried that dists on my own in case that was the problem, but it made
no difference /dists or nothing after org, stretch or testing, same result.

>> In the instructions it says once you open the directory download the
>> multimedia keyring
> 
> Alternatively - if you really can't get hold of the keys - put [
> trusted=yes ] between 'deb' and the url, e.g.:

This is getting too secure for me, I couldn't even import the downloaded
key file verified and through an encrypted channel...

But your trick worked, imported the multimdedia-key rerun without the
[trusted=yes] tag and all is OK

Thank you, you made a waste of a day receive high value.  I now have the
other half of the weekend to investigate why all my multimedia packages
have multimedia-upgrades/revisions within testing.

> deb [ trusted=yes ] http://www.deb-multimedia.org testing main non-free

OK, it worked, but what was the issue would I ever know?  Too many keys
in the keyring? I don't think so.  Just for kicks I added some other
distributions repository (testing based) and it didn't have such a
problem.  Maybe some public key-certificate somewhere where multimedia
is not registered yet as trustworthy?

> Regards,
> Frank

Thank you again, you really made my day, I was going mad with this
thinking it is a much deeper problem.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: http://www.deb-multimedia.org testing or stretch Release' does not have a Release file



Eduardo M KALINOWSKI:
> On 04-03-2017 12:59, GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> GPG error: http://www.deb-multimedia.org testing InRelease: The
>> following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not
>> available: NO_PUBKEY 5C808C2B65558117
>> The repository 'http://www.deb-multimedia.org testing InRelease' is not
>> signed.
>> [...]
>> DUHHH... !! But can't reach that repository because it is not signed
>> as legit!
> aptitude allows installation from untrusted sources, it'll just ask for
> confirmation before. I suppose apt-get is similar.
> 
> Install deb-multimedia-keyring and run update again, the repository will
> be trusted.
> 
> It's also possible to add the signing key manually with apt-key, but I
> couldn't easily find the key ID in http://deb-multimedia.org .

Both apt-get and aptitude resulted in the same error
E: Unable to locate package deb-multimedia-keyring

www.deb-multimedia.org/pool/main/d/deb-multimedia-keyring/deb-multimedia-keyring_2016.8.1_all.deb

Even downloaded it locally and tried to install and it won't work


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

http://www.deb-multimedia.org testing or stretch Release' does not have a Release file

NEW thread, no a hijacked one, as I give up searching for what I may
have done WRONG

GPG error: http://www.deb-multimedia.org testing InRelease: The
following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not
available: NO_PUBKEY 5C808C2B65558117
The repository 'http://www.deb-multimedia.org testing InRelease' is not
signed.

After switching between testing and stretch .org and .org/dists I have
given up.  Something with gpg and keyrings is messed up and can't find
out what it is.  The rest of the debian repositories work and everything
is current and updated.


http://www.deb-multimedia.org testing does not have a Release file

http://www.deb-multimedia.org/dists testing Release' does not have a
Release file

The repository 'http://www.deb-multimedia.org/dists testing Release'
does not have a Release file.

I just browsed into the directory and it DOES have a Release file right
there.  So I switched testing to stretch which appears to be the same

Updating from such a repository can't be done securely, and is therefore
disabled by default.See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation
and user configuration details.

The repository 'http://www.deb-multimedia.org/dists stretch Release'
does not have a Release file.

In the instructions it says once you open the directory download the
multimedia keyring

DUHHH... !! But can't reach that repository because it is not signed
as legit!

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT

https://packages.debian.org/jessie/fmit
https://packages.debian.org/stretch/fmit

Here are the two current versions of it and I like it because it gives a
little more control in tuning out noise and concentrate in what I want
to measure.

It is most probably electrical noise and fluctuations of voltage and/or
frequency, which may get amplified to look like an unstable wave form.

This part may be understood enough to leave it to the sound experts.

What is interesting is that a mechanical vibration may actually cause
electrical contacts on the whole system to create an instability within
that electrical noise.  One does not need to be a sound physicist to
translate this into an effective microphone.  How many pc's don't have
panels that act as drums and amplify noise and transform noise into a
mechanical vibration?

No, there is no onboard mic, there are only two audio inputs front and
back, and as I said trying this in 2 other systems with different debian
builds had similar results (some noise registering and affected by
abrupt vibration).

Yes I have pavucontrol installed, pulseaudio and utils.

PS  Suddenly, the noises in one's head that nobody else hears are
recorded by one's only true friend, the PC   :)) :)))

deloptes:
> GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> 
>> I don't see how the previous got linked to a previous thread so I am
>> reposting with additional clarification.
>>
>> OK, I did some testing on an other machine with a testing installation,
>> downloaded FMIT (an instrument tuner that will pickup audio input/analog
>> and tell you all kinds of stuff about the wave that is fed).
>> Same exact behavior, hardware only lists two audio inputs and are both
>> unplugged.  The lower the db threshold for sound recording the more
>> apparent the sound becomes.  Each knock on the box shows corresponding
>> amplification of that noise.
>>
>> Ok, so I picked up 2-3 live debian based USB sticks I have.  I plugged
>> then in to 3 different machines, downloaded FMIT and run it.  Similar
>> results.  So it has nothing to do with my configuration of stuff.  I say
>> if some software is picking up sound from your environment and records
>> it when no inputs are plugged in I would call this a "security" issue
>> not a malfunction.
>>
>> What is there MORE to post so it can be reproduced?  Blank live debian
>> installations adding FMIT in 3 machines Jessie + Stretch (one on UPS,
>> one on mains-plug, on laptop) if you allow it to see a wide spectrum of
>> frequencies it records noise (mostly hi-freq) and only hardware inputs
>> are unplugged.  Where is the noise coming from?
>>
>> It probably has nothing to do with the program itself but its
>> dependencies and some code feeding in wrong data as audio input.  But it
>> is actual sound
> 
> I was interested in your mainboard - perhaps it has integrated mic.
> 
> Do you have pavucontrol installed? Go to input devices and mute the mic
> 
> regards
> 
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Stretch & Safely Replacing systemd? AntiX

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AntiX

[antiX is a Linux distribution, originally based on MEPIS, which itself
is based on the Debian stable distribution. It initially replaced the
MEPIS KDE desktop environment with the Fluxbox and IceWM window
managers, making it suitable for older, less powerful x86-based systems.
Unlike Debian, antiX is "proudly systemd-free".[this quote needs a
citation] systemd does not support old hardware very well due to its
virtualization-based development.]

Although I wanted to give it a try their webpage is full of scripts and
invisible as html, their forum rejects registration without a verified
ISP IP.  Questioning their forum admin on why would he require a real IP
to participate in such a forum did not result to ANY answer.  So, I
became an anti-ANTIx fan for all that this intro implies.


Aquarius:
> Maybe Devuan would meet your requirements of using the init system you would 
> like to use. It is not on Stretch yet but on Jessie.
> 
> --
> Securely sent with Tutanota. Claim your encrypted mailbox today!
> https://tutanota.com
> 
> 3. Mar 2017 20:21 by wande...@fastmail.fm:
> 
> 
>> On 2017-03-03 at 13:00, Reco wrote:
>>
>>> Hi.
>>>
>>> On Fri, 03 Mar 2017 07:25:13 -0500
>>> The Wanderer <>> wande...@fastmail.fm>> > wrote:
>>>
 systemd as the init system is provided by the systemd-sysv package. I
 have that package pinned to never install in /etc/preferences:

 Package: systemd-sysv
 Pin: version *
 Pin-Priority: -1

 but this doesn't seem to be entirely effective in some cases, for
 reasons I've given up on trying to track down; still, it may be making a
 difference.
>>
>> I want to correct the record on this. When I wrote the above, I was
>> conflating multiple cases. What I have seen be ineffective is previous
>> pins, no longer present, against libpam-systemd and related packages; I
>> don't recall ever seeing anything try to install systemd-sysv in
>> violation of this pin.
>>
>> (There are enough legitimate complaints against the systemd ecosystem;
>> there's no need to hurt the case against such things by throwing in
>> baseless complaints on top of them.)
>>
>>> You may want to try somewhat different approach then:
>>>
>>> Package: systemd-sysv
>>> Pin: release a=stable
>>> Pin-Priority: -1
>>
>> I've noted this for later reference; if I ever see the
>> trying-to-install-packages-pinned-at--1 behavior again, I'll try that
>> variant.
>>
>> -- 
>>The Wanderer
>>
>> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
>> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
>> progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT

The Wanderer:
> On 2017-03-03 at 14:35, deloptes wrote:
> 
>> The Wanderer wrote:
>>
>>> True, although someone who doesn't know that hitting Reply on an 
>>> existing message threads the reply in under the existing message
>>> is unlikely to even know what message headers are, much less know
>>> how to do this. (Or be using a mail client which does permit
>>> that.)
>>
>> But why would you do this. You could simply press new and start a
>> thread with your question
> 
> Because hitting New means you have to put in the To address, but hitting
> Reply means the address is already there and you can just start typing
> your message (and possibly delete the quoted text, change the Subject
> line, et cetera).
> 
> Yes, this apparently is enough of a convenience factor to affect
> people's behavior.
> 

Since you guys now have hijacked the thread it is ok for me to continue

On my second try to address a related issue I "forwarded" to the list
the previous text as part of a reference with a new subject.  As I use a
non-html editor, txt comes in and txt comes out, I forget that the
headers are hidden, but never thought they were included in forward,
only in replies.  It is good to know that mozilla in providing with a
clean email gui does such things.
Also if you use reply instead of reply-all or reply-list the headers
that are picked up "by the list" are threading the messages.  So it is
partly the list-laundering activity that creates all the confusion.
I'm willing to bet that in interpersonal exchange some of those messages
wouldn't be threaded.  But I've seen it happen both ways, Re:
same-subject unthreaded and Re: different-subject threaded.  So it must
have to do with some mailing systems stripping headers and some that
don't do it, and effective stripping goes two ways.

Come to think of it, do newsgroups still exist?

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT

2017-03-03 Thread GiaThnYgeia

I don't see how the previous got linked to a previous thread so I am
reposting with additional clarification.

OK, I did some testing on an other machine with a testing installation,
downloaded FMIT (an instrument tuner that will pickup audio input/analog
and tell you all kinds of stuff about the wave that is fed).
Same exact behavior, hardware only lists two audio inputs and are both
unplugged.  The lower the db threshold for sound recording the more
apparent the sound becomes.  Each knock on the box shows corresponding
amplification of that noise.

Ok, so I picked up 2-3 live debian based USB sticks I have.  I plugged
then in to 3 different machines, downloaded FMIT and run it.  Similar
results.  So it has nothing to do with my configuration of stuff.  I say
if some software is picking up sound from your environment and records
it when no inputs are plugged in I would call this a "security" issue
not a malfunction.

What is there MORE to post so it can be reproduced?  Blank live debian
installations adding FMIT in 3 machines Jessie + Stretch (one on UPS,
one on mains-plug, on laptop) if you allow it to see a wide spectrum of
frequencies it records noise (mostly hi-freq) and only hardware inputs
are unplugged.  Where is the noise coming from?

It probably has nothing to do with the program itself but its
dependencies and some code feeding in wrong data as audio input.  But it
is actual sound



-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: A minimal relational database in Debian

2017-03-03 Thread GiaThnYgeia

I will top-post as it is meaningless to comment specifically.
I do have 5 and have not used base since I don't know when, on this
installation it was firsts.  I am made fun of having large fonts as I
refuse to wear glasses and my eyes get irritated trying to read small
print.  I adjusted the menus, the cells, and everything else I can find
straight out of the LibreB menu for fonts.  And that 130% was
ridiculously exceeded on purpose to HUMONGOUS.
So, I am clueless to what you are saying!  Maybe it is some desktop
environment that is blocking the adjustment of fonts?

StretchAMD64lXde

Katrin

to...@tuxteam.de:
> On Wed, Mar 01, 2017 at 08:53:58AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> On 03/01/2017 08:19 AM, Bob Weber wrote:
>>> Unacceptable. It affects the size of _everything_, not just font size.
 I collided with with a fatal side-effect. I tried a too large factor.
 Now the "accept" button is now off screen and *NOT* accessible.
 Don't see any option short of reinstall to resolve.
 I consider LibreOffice *DOA*

>>> Try holding down the alt key and use the left mouse button.  It should 
>>> allow you
>>> to move the window anywhere on the screen so you can see the button that is 
>>> off
>>> screen.
> 
> Re the menu font: perhaps those urls are relevant:
> 
>   
> https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/12658/libre-40-how-to-change-the-application-menu-fonts/
>   https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/8954/change-the-default-font/
>   https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/8954/change-the-default-font/
> 
> In a nutshell: yes, version 4 allows resizing the menu font, up to 130%,
> not more; version 5 uses the menu font theme from the environment (no
> way to resize explicitly: change the theme).
> 
> It seems probable that the bug report will be met with a WONTFIX :-(
> 
> regards
> -- tomás
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

No sound-inputs but sound recording FMIT

2017-03-02 Thread GiaThnYgeia

OK, I did some testing on an other machine with a testing installation,
downloaded FMIT (an instrument tuner that will pickup audio inpur/analog
and tell you all kinds of stuff about the wave that is fed).
Same exact behavior, hardware only lists two audio inputs and are both
unplugged.  The lower the db threshold for sound recording the more
apparent the sound becomes.  Each nock on the box shows corresponding
amplification of that noise.

Ok, so I picked up 2-3 live debian based USB sticks I have.  I plugged
then in to 3 different machines, downloaded FMIT and run it.  Similar
results.  So it has nothing to do with my configuration of stuff.  I say
if some software is picking up sound from your environment and records
it when no inputs are plugged in I would call this a "security" issue
not a malfunction.

It probably has nothing to do with the program itself but its
dependencies and some code feeding in wrong data as audio input.  But it
is actual sound

 Forwarded Message 
Subject: Re: [solved] Re: No sound
Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 22:30:30 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 23:27:17 +0100
From: deloptes <delop...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: delop...@gmail.com
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org

GiaThnYgeia wrote:

> How does one trace the inputs of the audio system?  Basic hardware
> configuration only shows usual mic input, but using FMT for example
> after mic gets unplugged some sound input is getting recorded.  Banging
> on the box records well.  None of the hardware specs I've found list any
> other device.  Could the mini-speaker-beeper on the board act as a mic?
> Why would audio software be allowed to use a speaker as a mic?

don't hijack please. open new thread

show us your hardware and other useful info. may be you have built in mic?

Re: A minimal relational database in Debian

2017-03-01 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Boy Microsoft10 and Office-Access and share all your data with the
seattle bureau in a cloud and have no annoyance what so ever.
Then pull the ethernet cable and see if your "purchased product" is
still functional.

Katrinity

Richard Owlett:
> On 02/28/2017 05:06 PM, Dominic Knight wrote:
>> On Monday 27 February 2017 13:17:56 Richard Owlett wrote:
>>> I looked at at LibreOffice Base. It was unusable as its "help" system
>>> provided no intrinsic way to increase fonts to a legible size.
>>
>> Would temporarily changing your dpi settings work, the help is
>> perfectly legible here, but I have increased dpi (96 > 132) rather than
>> font size as it is an across the board improvement for my monitor size.
>>
> 
> Not sure it would be worth the annoyance.
> If this problem is representative of their workmanship ...
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: [solved] Re: No sound

2017-02-28 Thread GiaThnYgeia

Rodolfo Medina:
> Rodolfo Medina  writes:
> I installed alsaplayer-alsa and pulseaudio and now I have sound, I don't know
> thanks to which of the two.
> 
> $ cat /etc/debian_version; uname -a
> 9.0
> Linux lenovo 4.9.0-2-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.10-1 (2017-02-17) x86_64 
> GNU/Linux
9.0
Linux DellUziOn 4.9.0-1-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.6-3 (2017-01-20) x86_64
GNU/Linux

How does one trace the inputs of the audio system?  Basic hardware
configuration only shows usual mic input, but using FMT for example
after mic gets unplugged some sound input is getting recorded.  Banging
on the box records well.  None of the hardware specs I've found list any
other device.  Could the mini-speaker-beeper on the board act as a mic?
Why would audio software be allowed to use a speaker as a mic?

> Cheers,
> Rodolfo

Peace and quiet

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Security hole in LXDE?

2017-02-28 Thread GiaThnYgeia

As a user and as I understand it you should not be able to make
system-wide changes and many packages affect other parts of the system.
A user can install and run any package that does not affect the system,
as a stand alone.  The system is a whole must be maintained by the
sysadmin for all users.  That is my simplistic understanding.
Unless it is specifically configured otherwise I don't see why these
assumptions would be wrong.  Imagine if I like MATE and the other user
likes X11 and I delete x11 and install MATE, or I install a package that
has dependency conflicts and replaces what is essential for the other
users' packages.

Live systems allow you to install whatever you like as they assume you
are the root or sysadmin.

At least that is how I understand security policy for this system.

David Wright:
> On Mon 27 Feb 2017 at 11:13:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>> testingAmd64LXDE
>>
>> I have never, not once, been able to run synaptic in any similar system
>> without a root or a sudo password.  Not to execute a command, just to
>> get the gui up you need a password.
> 
> Why would that be? You should be able to do so. There's a popup
> window that says this:
> 
>   Starting "Synaptic Package Manager" without administrative privileges
> 
>   You will not be able to apply any changes, but you can still export
>   the marked changes or create a download script for them.
> 
> I can select packages, look at their properties, dependencies,
> installed files, get changelogs etc. I can edit some of the
> preferences. I can see the immediate effects of that in files
> like ~/.synaptic/synaptic.conf when I click OK. I can select
> packages for installation and it will write a little script
> for me:
> 
>  #!/bin/sh
>  wget -c
>  
> http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/non-free/i/ibm-3270/3270-common_3.3.14ga11-1_i386.deb
> 
> So it suggests that the OP has set something in their system
> to cause the behaviour they observe, both the popup and the
> fact that a user's password is sufficient for installing software.
> 
> I can run (the similar program) aptitude likewise. The main differences
> with synaptic are that aptitude is in the user's normal PATH (whereas
> synaptic is in /usr/sbin); when you try to install, it asks you to
> consider becoming root from the Actions menu; and if you persist, it
> gives you the option to become root in a dialog box, and you can then
> type the root password.
> 
>> I don't know whether creating a user with 100% admin privileges will
>> still require a pass or not, I suspect it would still.  As if you add a
>> user in the sudo group it is the user's pass that is asked.  So
>> something is wrong on your specific installation.
>>
>> Hans:
>>> Am Montag, 27. Februar 2017, 21:00:15 CET schrieb Davor Balder:
>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>
>>>> Question 1 which one: stable, testing or unstable?
>>>
>>> testing/amd64
>>>>
>>>> Generally (to aid in your investigation):
>>>>
>>> I did, but found nothing unusual. 
>>>
>>> If no one can confirm this, it is a problem on my system!
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: A cumulative reply [Re: A minimal relational database in Debian?]

Copied from a friend that dealt with such antiquities

> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:46:16 -0600
> Richard Owlett  wrote:
>> On 02/27/2017 09:44 AM, Joe wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 08:53:30 -0600
>>> Richard Owlett  wrote:
 On 02/27/2017 07:43 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> LibreOffice Base is, AFAIK *not* a relational database, but just
> a -possibly graphical- user interface to one. Relational databases,
> as I know them, have no "fonts", for example.
 I didn't claim it was ;/
 I looked at it as it was install by default when I chose MATE as my
 DE. The "font problem" was that I could not force its "help system"
 to use a legible font size. Not being able to read its "help", I have
 ABSOLUTELY NO idea of what capability it does/doesn't supply.
>>> It's sort of functionally nearly equivalent to MS Access on Windows 3
>>> i.e. 1992-ish.
>> I had forgotten about MS Access, probably 'cause the less I think about 
>> that employer the better. It was later than dBaseII but aimed pretty 
>> much at the same market. Having used dBaseII was considered "qualifying 
>> experience" for the job.

Back around and before that time I use to play around with dbases using
.csv files
Then at a job they had huge datasets acquired that we only needed
tables/statistics or small portions of this data.  At that time the
equipment at work were XT-at-DX-DX2   while at school we worked on
DEC-mainframes and some early SUN and SGI workstations.
After I convinced them to make an exception to the isolation rule and
hand me a modem so I can submit data to be cranched elsewhere and
processed by SPSS I could take the day off and get 10hrs of work done in
30' which unless I was paid for 10 I wouldn't do.
So finally they got me the first 386 in the building with windows and
Alpha4 to process all the dbf files.  Alpha4 on DOS worked a zillion
times faster than Excell which had to use video memmory to show the
dataset and that took for ages to do.  I had the only PC that had
windows and insisted in running on DOS.  Out of romantic memory interest
if I found a copy of Alpha4 today I would get it.  Down the street a
collaborating organization run SGI workstations and early SQL, that was
fun visiting like geeks at the MS people.
Then Access came out and I QUIT!!
Eventually both SPSS and SAS moved to sell MS windows products and if
they are not dead they deserve to.
But there is no such thing as fully relational database, it is all
partial.  Anything that is not SQL based today is just as competitive as
cavemen would be against drones.
Even LibOffice can import .csv and .dbf files and make a more effective
database and data handling.  It all has to do with sizes.  GIS systems
and I am sure certain nosuchagencies may be using the most complex and
efficient dbase systems, but files of a few megabytes can be handled by
loffice

>>> It's slow and as buggy as hell. It can't handle update
>>> queries. I think it still needs Java for reporting. Apart from that,
>>> it's about the quickest way to assemble an ad-hoc database
>>> application.
>>> Free, that is, there are probably better commercial products. I use it
>>> for this reason, but also that it is cross-platform, you can literally
>>> take a Base file from a Linux machine and run it on a Windows machine,
>>> and vice versa (for close-numbered versions of LO).
>>> But a lot depends on what you want to do. Only you know your actual
>>> database needs. LO Base can use an internal database file or pretty
>>> much any client-server database or other ODBC server. For making user
>>> applications, it's worth considering.
>> Not if it throws barriers between me ant its documentation.

The bottom line is, if you worked with datasets back then, where a
spreadsheet was an ascii comma delimited file, and related several of
them into one system you can learn mySql in a 10th of the time it would
take a non-mathematician to learn.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Security hole in LXDE?

Hans:
> Hi,
> I am just clickingin LXDE menu on the icon to start, then a popup menu opens 
> and asks for my password (the user password NOT root) and I can install just 

But is that user a member in the sudo group?  I had to use root till I
added the user to the group

> Best
> 
> Hans
>>
>> What, exactly, do you do to start synaptic? Click on something, or run a
>> command in a terminal? What prompts you for a password? What version of
>> synaptic do you have installed?
> 
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: The same environment variables everywhere

to...@tuxteam.de:
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 09:07:19AM +0100, deloptes wrote:
>> Stefan Monnier wrote:
> 
> I would like to hear some ideas on how to set various environment
> variables (PATH, MANPATH, EDITOR etc.) in one place that would make them
> effective everywhere. My "everywhere" means:
> - X session started through lightdm and ~/.xsession script
> - Linux console login (bash)
> - user's systemd services
 Put them into /etc/environment.

For a while I've been trying to set the locale but everytime I install a
package it returns locale not set returning to default C
I used /etc/environment, and no change.
I suspect this may be due to some skipped step on the original
installation as a similar installation on a similar machine does not
have this problem.  I have yet to locate the difference between the two.
I hope this is not perceived as hijacking.

Another possibly related problem I have is that although the language
env settings are for UTF8, non latin UTF8 valide characters if used as a
file name it is stored as ??.odt (example) This is a pain in the
posterior to have to rename them with a latin alphabet name and creates
all kinds of mix-up with doubling files.  Not that I want to create
filenames in other languages but downloading an archive of files with
such names makes the set unreadable (like an html set of files), the
local links break.

>>> I haven't re-tried recently, but last time:
>>> - It never worked for me.
>>> - It can't hold user-specific settings.
>>> - It can't *compute* a setting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Stefan
> 
>> IMO there is a good reason for so many places where you can put variables.
>> In fact it is not good to put X related variables in a non X session -
>> right?!
> 
> There will be some that want to be different. There will be some that
> want to be the same. The OP's question was about the latter, right?
> 
>> So I do distinguish between  settings for X session and for not X session -
>> at least two places for the variables.
>> Further more there are global and user specific ... etc
> 
> Yes, all of those! But I don't see how that's an answer to the OP's
> legitimate question: how to keep things that belong together in one
> place, instead of repeating it in every bit of config?
> 
> regards
> -- tomás
> 

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

Re: Security hole in LXDE?