Re: Hideous font when printing text file
Henk Koster wrote:
Thanks for your assistance. I use lp or lpr for printing text files (as
stated in the OP), e.g.
$ ls |lp
to print a directory listing to the default printer (I have only one
printer). That lp is really /usr/bin/lp. I've made no changes to the
default Debian printing setup.
There's no problem printing such text files using a2ps, I don't know
whether or not this is significant.
Is there a question in there? Are you asking how to change
the font your printer uses by default? If so, then you
need to consult your printer documentation.
Mike
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Re: [OT] German was Re: Laptop
Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
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Chris Jones wrote:
I understand the rest but what's "Bastelkunst"?
"The art of how to do-it-yourself" is the closest translation I can
think of. 'Basteln' literally means 'do handicrafts'.
It's also used for experimental or amateur or other home built
electronics equipment, like for hams or home built audio equipment.
In this context, it might be translated as "fiddling".
Mike
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Re: Labeling backup DVD+RW's
Paul Cartwright wrote:
I only plug it in to do backups. The rest of the time it is unplugged and away
That's good.
from the regualr PC. I have an UPS and 2 surge protectors between all my PC
stuff and any electrical outlet. This IS a home system, and I don't really
have access to an off-site storage facility..
A friend's home in another town nearby, or even just at the work
office can be "off site" if it's several miles away. A bank safety
deposit box is better, but costs more. It doesn't have to be
a "data security vault provider". :-)
I do rsync daily to a 2nd internal HD, regualt backups to the Mybook external,
and I also burn DVDs of things that are critical ( to me).
I live in Georgia ( USA, north of Florida) and I have a UPS on my computer
stuff, and another one on my TV/stereo/Satellite setup.
I've got a sister who lives near Savannah, though I don't know
what the significance of living in Georgia is. There are banks
with safety deposit boxes in Georgia, and people even have
friends who live a few miles away in Georgia, so I hear :-)
Mike
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Re: Labeling backup DVD+RW's
Richard Hector wrote:
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:05 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
Paul Cartwright wrote:
I would agree.. I use a $100 500Gb Mybook external as 1-part of my backup
scheme. I use rsync and back up my desktop AND my laptop to the external HD.
easy to specify folders and use a file for exceptions.
IMO, this is an inadequate strategy. Backup media need to be
stored off-site. Certainly, your external drive needs to remain
unplugged from the power and the computer, at least, for
most of the time. Otherwise the same lightning strike which
takes out your main disc could also clobber your "backup".
That's obviously true in an ideal sense. But even the local external
disk (or even internal disk) is vastly superior to having none at
all ...
It's just true in all senses.
I don't disagree that having a second copy is better than none.
However, using a second copy directly connected to the main
machine on the same site does not satisfy my definition of "backup".
As in all things, everyone has his own criteria. Also, there is
always the trade off between security and cost. However, my
minimal criteria are
(1) Off site storage; if my house burns down, then my data are
still safe (my backup is 13 miles from my house, so an atom bomb
will probably destroy all copies)
(2) Non volatile storage
(3) At least three copies rotated
(4) Verified (once) by rebuilding the system from scratch using wiped
hardware.
Any alternate storage scheme has to be evaluated based on one's
own criteria. I'm merely trying to get people to think about
what their criteria really are. If a lightning strike wiping
out all copies of your data is acceptable to you, then I'm not
going to argue or criticize.
For me, monthly backup to DVDs with weekly incrementals to CDs
with off site storage works, and is cheap both in time and
money. I keep the most recent copy on my hard drive (in case
of accidental erasure) as well as off site.
Which reminds me, it's time for my monthly :-)
Mike
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Re: Labeling backup DVD+RW's
Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
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Chris Jones wrote:
Is there an altogether better/smarter/reliabl-er solution?
IMHO, the smartest, fastest, most reliable and cheapest solution is to
use external hard disks like usb-disks. You could reuse the same disk
for more or less unlimited rw-cycles for an average lifetime of at least
around 3 years (probably much longer, since it is not in permanent use).
By the time it dies it has quite certain been much cheaper and
environment friendly than all those dvd-rws plus the burner. Current
hard disks have capacities of more than hundreds of DVD's.
This is also much more expensive, if one is doing real backups.
A real backup (as opposed to simply a second copy nearby) is
stored off site. So, one would need to rotate external discs
for this to be a viable backup means. Usually one uses at
least three copies, so one would need three external drives
which one rotated.
Mike
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Re: Labeling backup DVD+RW's
H.S. wrote:
Currently, I backup my /home to a partition on a second hard disk in my
desktop. The photos are mounted on a different desktop in a partition on
a hard disk which is shared via samba so that anyone on my home lan can
view them. That partition is backed up on to an external USB hard disk
connected to the desktop's USB port.
So, if you have a lightning strike, all copies are at risk?
Mike
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Re: Labeling backup DVD+RW's
Paul Cartwright wrote:
I would agree.. I use a $100 500Gb Mybook external as 1-part of my backup
scheme. I use rsync and back up my desktop AND my laptop to the external HD.
easy to specify folders and use a file for exceptions.
IMO, this is an inadequate strategy. Backup media need to be
stored off-site. Certainly, your external drive needs to remain
unplugged from the power and the computer, at least, for
most of the time. Otherwise the same lightning strike which
takes out your main disc could also clobber your "backup".
Mike
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Re: building entire Lenny from source
Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to build the whole of Lenny from source and am looking for
advice on the easiest tools to use. I looked at pbuilder and rebuildd
and nearly had a headache. Are there tutorials out there?
May I suggest Linux From Scratch?
http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
Mike
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Re: Which files do what: .bashrc and friends
Dotan Cohen wrote:
On a Debian-based system running KDE 3.5.10 I see several files that
are used when logging in / starting a Konsole:
.profile
Run once upon login.
.bash_history
List of previous commands for recall/edit/re execution
.bash_logout
Run once upon logout
.bash_profile
I believe equivalent to .profile
.bashrc
Run once for each interactive shell, after .profile
The main difference between .profile and .bashrc is that
.profile only gets run when you start a "login shell",
but .bashrc gets run for all shells.
So, for example, if you use
$ su -
you'll run root's .profile and .bashrc, but
$ su
only runs root's .bashrc
Mike
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Re: tar block question
David Fox wrote:
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Mag Gam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So, what do you recommend for such an annoyance? rsync takes a while
for me. But I rather I have 1 large tar file and untar as needed.
tar isn't the best tool to use for the job, especially if you need 1
file out of the tarball because it has to sequentially go through the
tar file until it hits the end. Your desired file might be at the
Or you hit ^C :-)
beginning, but it could be towards the end of the tarball. In any
TAR was originally intended to work with tape drives, some of which
are incapable of backward indexing, and must be rewound, so that's
the way it behaves.
event, having to stat / open (other file i/o) on 30K files is your
bottleneck, and in cases like this, rsync would fare better, since it
doesn't have to copy all the files, only ones that have changed. Of
course, the first run will take more time.
What tool do you recommend for his application? IOW...
He wants a single largeish file/archive which is quickly searchable.
Is cpio a better tool for this use?
Mike
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Re: Copy entire /usr
Dave Patterson wrote:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 08:15:04AM +0200, Raven wrote:
Hi all.
I am in a sticky situation. I run remotely a server and one of the disks
is starting to fail.
[...]
Example: assume /usr is the only thing on /dev/sdc1,
/dev/sdd1 (or some partition on another disk) has enough space available for
the /usr directory, and is formatted.
Do: ~# mount /dev/sdd1 /mnt
~# mkdir /mnt/usr
~# cp -ax /usr/* /mnt/usr/
~# umount /dev/sdd1
This is a good first start, but not adequate, I think. This
needs to be done when the file system is static. Also,
you don't want a partition named usr on the new partition,
because then when you mount under /usr it comes out as
/usr/usr
I would reboot to single user mode, then...
# mount -o remount,ro /usr
# mount /dev/sdd1 /mnt
# rsync -a /usr/ /mnt
# umount /mnt
I didn't check the rest, which I presume is good.
Mike
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Re: Way OT: OpenDNS
Dotan Cohen wrote:
My Internet access has been getting slower and slower and my ISP is a joke:
$ ping google.com
PING google.com (64.233.167.99) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from py-in-f99.google.com (64.233.167.99): icmp_seq=1 ttl=243
time=180 ms
Hmm. It translates to the same IP address for me, but I'm running
about 70ms per ping (only ran a few, gotta be polite)
Mike
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Re: rsync over lan
tyler wrote:
[I use my lan to]
do the backup from my user account as:
rsync -av --include-from=/home/tyler/rsync_includes /
etch.mynetwork:/home/tyler/laptop
Then the ownerships all get set to tyler tyler, even when they are
originally root root. In order to preserve the ownerships, I have to run
the above command as root, which requires that I configure sshd on the
desktop to accept root logins. Even behind a NAT router, that doesn't
seem like a good idea. Am I missing something?
Often, rsync is used like this only with dedicated LAN ports, not
through a bridge. In that case, you simply use fixed IP addresses
with the dedicated ports, and use hosts.allow and hosts.deny to
set up security. In that way, unless you have an actual breach
of one of the host machines itself (as opposed to simply compromise
of the bridge) you don't get a problem. You use a different domain
for the dedicated local connections, e.g. 192 on the NAT LAN, and
172 for the dedicated ports. Then make sure that the LAN domain
is denied for the dedicated ports. The dedicated ports may
then be connected via a crossover cable, or if you want a few
machines, then via an ethernet hub. It is key not to connect
the bridge and the hub together. Then only allow root login
from the dedicated ports. I'm not expert on these matters, so
I don't know the details of how to set that up. Perhaps it's
as simple as where you permit an NFS mount to come from.
Mike
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Re: partitions
Mark Grieveson wrote:
Thanks for this detailed response. And thanks to others for their
feedback. At some point in the future, I'm going to give this a try.
I should get a larger, and/or additional hard-drive first, though,
for backups. In browsing the available list of packages, I saw the
package backup-manager, which looks good for making the required backup
first.
BTW, the first time you boot after adding the new disc and moving
/home, and modifying the entries in /etc/fstab, the system will
want to do an extended fsck on your new file system. So, your
first boot after modifying /etc/fstab may look "hung" when
it tries to do the first mount, and you may see it simply sitting
there with the disc going crazy for several minutes. Don't panic!
It's just doing its thing during normal mount. The next time
you reboot, it shouldn't do that.
Also, you may get a notice about your system not going down "cleanly"
if you shutdown when your root system is mounted read only. That's
not a problem, it just means that the system was unable to delete
the indicator file (I forget its name) because the file system
was in a read only state.
I think it may be
/.autofsck
Mike
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Re: Emacs has hard time with big text files
Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
On Fri, Sep 05, 2008 at 11:14:04AM -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
If he's filled up memory, and the system has swapped the code
EMACS uses to move the cursor to disc, then he may be seeing
lag due to swap time to move the code in and execute it.
That might or might not slow down other applications, depending
on what cache algorithms are in effect. Keypresses don't come
very often.
But why is so much memory used in the first place?
I can't know what is using up memory, because I don't
know what other apps he has loaded. EMACS is certainly
not the only thing running. Web browsers notoriously
eat lots of memory, and if they are running some
JAVA, FLASH, some animation, or whatever, would likely be kept in
memory due to constant accesses. EMACS, responding to
keystrokes only, may then get pushed out. Memory
may almost all be eaten before EMACS gets loaded, in
which case loading another 46MB file might push the
system into swap, even if not all of it is kept in
RAM. I also don't know how much RAM he has.
If the file is so large, the editor should not keep it all in memory.
See e.g. less, qemacs and IIRC also nvi.
I didn't state that swap is the problem. I didn't
say that lots of memory is being used. I only suggest
that if it is, then it could be a cause of the
symptoms. Even if swap is being used, it may not
be the cause of his symptoms.
I'm trying to isolate the cause of the problem, not state
the solution.
Mike
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Re: Emacs has hard time with big text files
Jeff Soules wrote:
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Mike McCarty
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Must... not... compare... emacs... to... Operating... System...
I wasn't comparing anything to anything. I don't understand
even what your objection might be.
In the old vi-vs.-EMACS flamewars it was often claimed by vi advocates
that EMACS' larger memory footprint and greater attempted
extensibility made it basically a replacement operating system. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editor_war .
Oh, I'm aware of that. I just didn't get it. Ok, he was
talking to HIMSELF not to compare EMACS to an OS. That's
why the ellipsis. I thought he was simulating a slow system.
Ok.
I'll admit that I don't care for EMACS, myself. However, I also
don't care for VI. The main advantage of VI is, it's always
present on any *NIX type system, so knowing how to use it
is an advantage.
Anwyway, thanks for the response.
Mike
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Re: Emacs has hard time with big text files
Ron Johnson wrote:
On 09/05/08 10:46, Mike McCarty wrote:
Martin wrote:
When I open big text file (46M in this case) emacs take long time for
moving cursor and editing. It takes 3-4 seconds to process every key
press.
Is this only my case or is emacs in general sluggish with big files?
Have you looked at the output from top? You may be swapping.
Must... not... compare... emacs... to... Operating... System...
I wasn't comparing anything to anything. I don't understand
even what your objection might be.
If he's filled up memory, and the system has swapped the code
EMACS uses to move the cursor to disc, then he may be seeing
lag due to swap time to move the code in and execute it.
That might or might not slow down other applications, depending
on what cache algorithms are in effect. Keypresses don't come
very often.
Mike
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Re: Emacs has hard time with big text files
Martin wrote:
When I open big text file (46M in this case) emacs take long time for
moving cursor and editing. It takes 3-4 seconds to process every key
press.
Is this only my case or is emacs in general sluggish with big files?
Have you looked at the output from top? You may be swapping.
Mike
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Re: partitions
Mark Grieveson wrote:
Thanks for this detailed response. And thanks to others for their
feedback. At some point in the future, I'm going to give this a try.
I should get a larger, and/or additional hard-drive first, though,
for backups. In browsing the available list of packages, I saw the
package backup-manager, which looks good for making the required backup
first.
Pardon, but having a second disc at the same location is
not provision for backup. It may be useful, but it is not
backup. If you have a lightning strike which takes out
your power supply and fries your disc, it'll likely fry
all your discs. If you have a flood, or a fire, you'll
lose all your discs.
Proper backup requires off site storage.
I'm not trying to discourage you from adding more disc
for making redundant local copies. I do, however, want
to encourage you to develop a real backup plan. Having
good useful backups is not an onerous or even all that
time consuming a task, unless you have enormous amounts
of data.
Simply having a second disc may be adequate for your
present needs, regarding just moving /home off onto another
disc.
Mike
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Re: partitions
Mark Grieveson wrote:
Hello. When debian first installs, it gives the option of separating
the home directory (and some other directories) into a separate
partition. I did not choose this option, and instead went for the
recommended newbie option of everything in one partition. However, now
I think it would be a good idea to separate stuff. Is there a way to
rerun that aspect of the install, or, if not, another way to do this?
Did you get an answer, or did you get scared off, or what?
On the edit of /etc/fstab, I'd go ahead and use the echo... technique,
then go back and edit in the other changes after the system reboots
and appears stable.
Mike
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Re: partitions
Mike McCarty wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
[...]
# mount -o remount,rw /
# echo "/dev/hdb1 /home auto exec" >> /etc/fstab
Hah, used a cut-n-paste, which missed something which
flowed over onto the next line. Make that
echo "/dev/hdb1 /home auto exec 1 1" >> /etc/fstab
Urgg! I like it to change /boot to 1 3 and make home
1 2. So you'll have to EDIT /etc/fstab, I guess. Sorry.
The first is the backup level, the second is the fsck check
order. So, I want it to be first backup, and second checked,
and make /boot the last.
Mike
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Re: partitions
Mike McCarty wrote:
[...]
# mount -o remount,rw /
# echo "/dev/hdb1 /home auto exec" >> /etc/fstab
Hah, used a cut-n-paste, which missed something which
flowed over onto the next line. Make that
echo "/dev/hdb1 /home auto exec 1 1" >> /etc/fstab
That way it'll be part of your normal backukp/restore list.
Mike
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Re: partitions
Mark Grieveson wrote: Hello. When debian first installs, it gives the option of separating the home directory (and some other directories) into a separate partition. I did not choose this option, and instead went for the recommended newbie option of everything in one partition. However, now I think it would be a good idea to separate stuff. Is there a way to rerun that aspect of the install, or, if not, another way to do this? I recently split my /home off onto another disc. Perhaps my experience can help. I DO NOT use LVM. If you use LVM, then I can't help. I am not a Debian specific expert. I encourage others here to read and examine what I have written for mistakes or omissions. Before starting, be sure to read this all the way through several times, and make sure you understand what is being accomplished by each command, and why it needs to be done. If you have any doubts about why any particular command is recommended, or what it is accomplishing, or how to reverse its action, be sure to ask before doing anything. Any failure of complete comprehension on your part may result in an unbootable and possibly unrecoverable system. You need to print a copy of this before you start, as well. I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY ACTIONS YOU MAY PERFORM ON YOUR MACHINE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU CARRIED THEM OUT EXACTLY AS I DESCRIBED. I OFFER NO WARRANTIES OR FITNESS FOR ANY PURPOSE FOR THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION. IT IS PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. This information is free; don't come sue me. First, and foremost, make a full backup of your system. If you don't know how, or if you think you do, but haven't tested your ability to restore everything you need, then you need to learn how and/or test. You may lose your system if I made a mistake writing, or you make a mistake following, the instructions. Ok, now you have a good backup, and if something goes wrong, you won't lose your system. Next, you need to make room. If you have some unallocated room on your main disc, and a spare entry in your Partition Table (PT) then create a new partition entry in your PT for the new file system(s). If you don't have unallocated space, or no entries in your PT, then get a new disc and partition it, or use your favorite tool to repartition your disc. If you use the second method, then you'll lose everything and have to reload from backup. Ok, now you have some space on your current disc, or on another. Make whatever file systems you want on the various partitions. I suppose that you are going to put /home and possibly /usr, or /usr/local, or perhaps /tmp on their own partitions. Anyway, select the partitions you want to be your new /home or whatever. I'll presume you are doing only /home, you should be able to extrapolate. You can test your work so far by making an entry in your /etc/fstab and mounting the new file system, and playing around with it for a little bit. Be sure to delete whatever you create before proceeding, and be sure to remove any entry in /etc/fstab referring to the new partition before proceeding. If you do this, be sure to make another backup. All right, now you have a new file system on a new partition which is empty. Reboot to single user mode. Save your current fstab # cd /etc # cp -p fstab fstab.bak Now mount your new file systems where you want. For the sake of ease of exposition, I'll presume you have a new disc /dev/hdb and you want the first partition to become your new home... # mkdir -p /media/newhome # mount -t auto /dev/hdb1 /media/newhome Unmount any other mounted file systems. I'll presume you have only two, / and /boot. You can't actually unmount your root, because then you'll have no applications, like rsync, to run. We'll do the next best thing, and remount your root partition read only. Be sure to unmount any other file systems you mount (given what you wrote above, there shouldn't be any, but for future reference) to protect them from damage. # umount /boot # mount -o remount,ro / Ok, your root file system is now static. Now copy over your stuff... # rsync -a /home/ /media/newhome Don't omit the trailing slash on /home/ or you'll get a directory named /media/newhome/home, which you don't want. This copy may take a long time. If you want to see what's happening, add "-v" after the "-a". It'll probably take a lot longer, however. After this has completed, you have a full copy of your current /home in /media/newhome, which is your new disc/partition. You can also use dump/restore, but I find rsync easier. Unmount your copy, so it is safe from damage... # umount /media/newhome Now, edit your /etc/fstab to mount your new disc at the next boot. # mount -o remount,rw / # echo "/dev/hdb1 /home auto exec" >> /etc/fstab Ok, now we can rename /home to /oldhome, so you can leave it around for a while, in case you want to reverse the procedure later. # cd / # mv home oldhome # mkdir home At this point, you should have a system which will boot and look just li
Re: package to make a system restore image
edu gargiulo wrote:
I've recently finished installing xen from sources on my system.
During the compiling process, the system had connected to different
places and downloaded packages.
I would like to make a system image at this time, so if I need to
install xen in the future, I just only have to restore from the image.
Which package/tool do you recomend to do that?
thanks in advance and sorry for my english.
--
edu gargiulo
I think you may be asking about how to do a bare metal recovery.
If you are asking about something specific to XEN, then I don't
know, and you should ignore the rest of this message.
http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Linux-Complete-Backup-and-Recovery-HOWTO/
Mike
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Re: problems with tar for backup (maximum tar file size?)
Jimmy Wu wrote:
[...]
So I was wondering: (1) Is it true that tar files can't be bigger than
8GB, and (2) If so, what should I use to backup directories bigger
than 8GB? I wanted to stick with tar because I can open those on
other platforms. If directory size isn't the problem, then what could
be going on?
I use tar to do backups, and have generated tarballs which span 26
DVDs (roughly 118 Gig). The problem is likely not tar, but the file
system. Tar does not have a central directory, it has a distributed
directory. Each file in the archive has a little header which describes
it. Another thing to watch for, if you are putting files onto DVDs,
as opposed to writing them raw, is that the largest single file which
the ISO file system (not UDF) for DVDs can support is just under
2 Gig. So you can't write a single huge 4.x Gig file to a DVD using
that file system. Here's a little piece of the script I use for
creating chunks which fit, four to a DVD.
[---]
#!/bin/bash
# Create backups of /etc, /home, /usr/local, and...
PATH=/bin:/usr/bin
DEST_DIR=/var/backups
#omitteddirs = "/srv /var/backups /var/games /mnt/usb/home/jmccarty/images
#/home/jmccarty/linux_versions"
#removed from list...
backupdirs="/boot /etc \
[...]
/var/mail"
echo "System backup beginning" | wall
cd $DEST_DIR
mv -f backup.lst backupsave.lst
# 4482m works, but 2% left for rim damage
# This splits it up into pieces which can be written, four at a time, to
# a DVD.
tar c -O $backupdirs | split -d -b 1100m - backup.tar.
# | || || || | | |||
# | || || || | | +++-- prefix to use
# | || || || | +-- use standard input
# | || || || + size in
1024*1024 bytes# | || || ++--
size to use
# | || ++- use numeric
suffices
# | ||
# | ++-- to standard output
# +-- create
echo "System backups complete, status: $?" | wall
echo "Now verifying system backups" | wall
cat backup.tar.* | tar tv 1> backup.lst && \
echo "Verified, please burn backup /mnt/var/backups/backup.tar
to DVDRO$ | wall || \
echo "BACKUP FAILED" | wall
[]
HTH. If the formatting gets lost, I can also send an attachment.
Mike
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Re: boot
Diego A. Podestá wrote:
Buenas
Antes que nada aclaro que soy novato.
Y antes que nada, siento que la lista es solo ingles.
[...]
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Wackojacko wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
[snip]
to Debian. Her plan is to use Knoppix to move her mail files
etc. from the Debian partition to an external FAT drive,
and then reboot Windows and import.
If the debian install used ext2/3 then there is a driver for windows XP
(http://www.fs-driver.org/) which will allow direct access to the
partitions without the need to boot a live CD.
HTH
It very well might. Thanks!
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 01:14:06PM -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
Thanks all for the advice and help with this. I went over
...
Windows XP.
...
snipped tale of the death of a free computer... and a fantastic
anecdote in support of RTFM!
...
[snip]
What can I say Mike, we tried.
cheers
And I appreciate it.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
Kent West wrote:
Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
... (what' s a GF?) ...
Girl-Friend. (I used to understand the concept of girlfriends better
before Debian came along )
The concept is not hazy, but the practice is. I don't understand
THEM much at all.
But, as I advised my son, I don't try too hard to learn to understand
them, I expend my efforts learning to appreciate them.
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Mike McCarty wrote:
These have (nearly) all been posted before, but some have requested
that they be reposted.
[snip]
Well, the story is under the thread about GNOME and multiple
queues on printers.
Thanks all for the helpful comments and such.
Michelle, I believe we've met before. You jumped into the
middle of a longish thread, and started making pejorative
comments right away. You might consider that.
Mike
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Re: Penalty of SELinux?
Michelle Konzack wrote:
Am 2007-09-25 03:11:39, schrieb Mike McCarty:
It would take more than just kernel, of course. I am investigating
LFS. Gentoo seems to have accepted SELinux as well, though since
it is a source distro most of the work would be easier in that
case, perhaps.
And where is the problem with Debian?
I didn't say there was a problem with Debian. If I'm going to go
to extra effort to be able to control what is on my machine,
I'm going to have to load another distro. I don't currently have
Debian on my machine, so it makes more sense to switch to a
distro which has goals closer to my own.
[snip]
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Mike McCarty wrote:
Thanks all for the advice and help with this. I went over
to her house a little early yesterday, and walked up to
her machine, which had the customary blank screen. I tapped
the "left shift" key, and poised to enter the password
into the screen saver, when I was greeted by the login screen
of Windows XP.
When she got home, I explained that there were several
things I had been given advice to try, and asked what
precipitated the install.
She smiled wryly, and stated that she has a digital camera
which writes CDROMS. She put the CDROM into the machine,
and Debian only recognized it as being unwritten.
I commented that she probably needed to do something to the
disc with the camera to "finalize" the current session on
the disc.
Well, she said that it was the proverbial straw that broke
the camel's back, and she opened up the OEM version of XP
she had bought, and installed.
After she did that, and set up a few accounts, she tried
the disc, and...
XP couldn't use it either, of course. It wanted to "format" it.
So she went looking for the camera manual, which she couldn't
find, but found on the web, and it said what I told her.
She put the CDROM back into the camera, finalized the open
session, put the CDROM back into the computer, and XP found
it just fine. I'm sure Debian would have done so as well.
She claims she didn't blow away the Debian partitions. I commented
that about 30 seconds more effort lifting the MBR off of there
would have made it much easier to make Debian still bootable
using the XP bootloader.
Anyway, unless I want to make a hobby of making that machine
able to boot Debian, and fiddling with it just to see if it
could have been made to work, I'm afraid Debian is pretty
much gone on this machine. Even if I make the machine dual
boot, I wonder just how often it actually would get booted
to Debian. Her plan is to use Knoppix to move her mail files
etc. from the Debian partition to an external FAT drive,
and then reboot Windows and import.
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 01:06:06PM -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
As I said, I'm going to try using the direct CUPS I/F tonight
when I go over there. At present, I'm about 15 miles from
the computer, so it's problematic to try stuff out :-)
Have you considered a dial-up modem and setting up mgetty with auto-ppp?
Then you can dial-in to get a CLI or ppp in and do ssh -X and run her X
apps.
The thought has rattled around in the back of my brain a couple
of times. We'd need two modems, of course. It just seems like
any given problem is easier to handle when I go over there.
I regularly am there on Wed night and over weekends. So...
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
Okay, I think a lot of your problems would be alleviated by an upgrade
to etch. Again, this is all predicated on the idea that she will give
you a little more time to do this stuff.
Ok.
head over to www.debian.org and read up (at least browse through) the
upgrade notes for
[...]
It will take a while, but when done, she'll be running 'etch' and
probably many of the problems will simply go away. Certainly a lot of
the printer issues will be resolved and the others may as well.
hth.
So do I :-)
And, of course, it may not help, even if it "helps". IOW,
her mind may (likely is) already made up.
ps. of course, back up etc.
Oh, yes.
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 01:06:06PM -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
I realise that, just posting up so that 1) others can keep track of
stuff we've discussed off-list and 2) so that I know you got the
message not knowing how/when you check email.
'K
On my FC computer, I have six queues associated with my one printer,
three different resolutions in color/greyscale. I'm going to spend some
time looking at the CUPS web I/F on my machine, and seeing how it
works before going over tonight.
good plan and good luck.
Thanks!
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
[snip]
has for a while. I suspect its a case of PEBCAK. :) You can definitely
set up another queue and you can do so for sure through the
localhost:631 interface. YOu have to review all the data from the
other instance of the printer as you have to re-enter it as if
creating the printer from scratch. BUt it should just work at that
point.
As I said, I'm going to try using the direct CUPS I/F tonight
when I go over there. At present, I'm about 15 miles from
the computer, so it's problematic to try stuff out :-)
Also, you've mentioned this being an HP printer. Please confirm that
hplip and all its dependencies are installed. It sounds like she's got
I'll do that.
an HP PSC something or other. I have installed and used three of these
printers of various models (1210, 1315 and mumble mumble) and they work
great using hplip. This is the same kind of printer that I used for
the above multi-queue testing. Note that the printers do not (afaict)
allow you to specify the resolution through the gnome-cups-manager,
but it does allow you to specify the "printout mode" in the "advanced"
tab in the printer properties. The printout mode will allow you to
choose "draft" or "high-quality" as well as different color
options. Also the hplip toolbox will allow you to do all kinds of
things with the printer just like in the other os.
On my FC computer, I have six queues associated with my one printer,
three different resolutions in color/greyscale. I'm going to spend some
time looking at the CUPS web I/F on my machine, and seeing how it
works before going over tonight.
Mike
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Re: Stupid question (was Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges")
Ron Johnson wrote:
I know how to do the necessary admin with FC. Debian I'm much less
capable with. I wouldn't call FC "turnkey". But it uses a completely
different set of admin tools.
Why did you push Debian on her, when your expertise lies in FC?
"Push" is a four letter word :-)
I got her a bunch of LiveCDs, and she ran them. Of them all
she liked Knoppix and Kanotix the best. Since they are both
based on Debian, that is what I suggested. One of the things
she liked best was that both of them did an excellent job
of recognizing and setting up hardware with little interaction
with the user.
Fedora I would not recommend to anyone not interested in
eternally fiddling with the machine, broken interfaces,
and churn. It's for people whose hobbies include fiddling
with new installs and reloading.
I'm not into that, either, for these large machines.
When I finally upgrade to another release, it won't be
FC.
The reason _I_ installed FC was that I got an employment
contract, and was requested to build up a machine which
could dual boot WinXP and FC for test on multiple platforms.
Due to inertia and general laziness, I have not moved from
FC2, which in FC terms is REALLY ANCIENT.
I don't like it, but I also don't like reloading. :-)
And, I don't consider myself expert at FC admin, either.
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Andrei Popescu wrote:
How current is her Debian install?
From stable, but a little old.
From what you're saying I think she is running oldstable (sarge) and not
stable (etch). It could make a big difference as etch has kernel 2.6.18
as opposed to 2.6.8 (or the default 2.4).
From stable as of Sep 2005.
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Wayne Topa wrote:
Mike McCarty([EMAIL PROTECTED]) is reported to have said:
I've printed off the CUPS docu from their home page, and
I'll give the web or CLI another try tomorrow night. (If
she'll let me, that is :-)
Thanks!
Your welcome, Mike. One question. With your GF having been into
computers so long, why hasn't she asked for help from the list?
Especially since you don't run Debian and she does.
She isn't into using computers as a hobby any more. She just
wants them to work. If the sw doesn't do what she wants more
or less right away, then she tosses it. I don't mean as in
needing to learn how to use it, I mean as in it doesn't work
as advertised pretty quickly. She doesn't want to fiddle with
it, she wants it to run.
Maybe Ubuntu or Kubuntu would have been a better choice. I've
never run either of them. But one of the things that she really
liked about Knoppix was that it was able to find and set up
all the hardware and run.
BTW, I had more luck with the web interface then the CLI. And I use
the CLI for 98% of my work.
Ok, I'll take that as a hint.
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 09:33:43PM -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
My GF installed a USB mouse, and her keyboard went away.
They work together with THE OTHER OS. IIRC (it's been
a while) using a debug startup allows us to get up to
a root login, and look around, but using ^D from there
makes the keyboard go away. I can't tell if this is
an X Window problem, or below that, or what. The current
work around is to use an old PS/2 style mouse. The symptoms
are just as if the keyboard were unplugged. There is no
response whatsoever.
Is this mouse plugged into the same troubling hub?
Well, it's not plugge in at all, at the moment :-)
At the time we encountered the issue, the hub had
not yet been purchased. So, no the "troubling hub"
is not the problem.
[snip]
Do you have enough USB ports on the rear of the box? What about a few
USB straight extension cords instead of HUBs.
Yes, that might work. She has two ports on the machine.
One is free. I did suggest that to her. She just wants
it to work.
She can't associate multiple queues with a single printer,
but there is already another thread about that. There is
currently no work around, but there is hope that using the
CUPS I/F directly may work.
I've never tried CUPS. Partly because of all the troubles people seem
to have. I've always had great luck with LPRng and apsfilter or LPRng
and foomatic-printfilters (set up with foomatic-GUI if you like). The
first option is easier if apsfilter had the driver for your printer.
The second lets you use a cups printer ppd. LPRng does great with
multiple queues.
I've never had a problem with CUPS on my machine, nor with the
GNOME I/F to it. On her Debian machine, I've had problems with
the GNOME I/F to CUPS.
[snip]
See your other answers re kernel options.
Is she running Etch up-to-date? What CPU does this box have?
This is a dual Celeron MB with one Celeron installed, 1.7 or so
Gig clock.
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Gabriel Parrondo wrote:
El mié, 26-09-2007 a las 01:17 -0500, Mike McCarty escribió:
Gabriel Parrondo wrote:
El mar, 25-09-2007 a las 21:33 -0500, Mike McCarty escribió:
[snip of something I can't help with]
She can't associate multiple queues with a single printer,
but there is already another thread about that. There is
currently no work around, but there is hope that using the
CUPS I/F directly may work.
Let us know when you try this out. I have several instances of each
printer created in cups each one with different configuration
(grayscale, color, color high quality) and it works great. Using gnome.
Really? I worked on that repeatedly with no success. Works
great on my machine (different distro, however).
Same printer?
No, not same printer.
I wonder if we need to do a
# apt-get update some-package
The update command doesn't take any arguments.
I'm not sure if you ever told us what model the printer is...
It's a relatively new HP printer. I don't happen to have
the model number on the top of my head.
But for hp printers there is:
hplip-ppds, hpijs-ppds, foomatic-db-hpijs, hpoj, linuxprinting.org-ppds.
You could also try with:
apt-cache search ppd
Ok.
Does she have windows installed? I usually see people using ntfs
partitions without having windows installed, I fail to understand why...
For many years this machine ran Windows NT. When she felt she
couldn't run NT any longer, and was tired of having not USB
support, she decided to try something else. I suggested trying
Linux again (she tried and didn't like RH 6.0) as it has come
a long way.
That disc is from before the Debian install.
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:50:44 -0500, Mike McCarty
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
Oops! I somehow neglected to specify... PS/2 style keyboard PS/2
style mouse Keyboard works
PS/2 style keyboard USB style mouse Keyboard stops working
I am afraid I cannot reproduce this. I have two machines,
Not surprising. If it were a common phenomenon, then it
would probably have been noted earlier. I do know that
at least one other person has experienced it.
[snip]
Same setup works with you-know-what.
Then perhaps you-know-what _is_ the better solution, as far as
you are concerned. I don't think we should be brow beating people into
usding free software -- it should be their cohice. If they do not like
what free software has to offer, and like some other solution better,
we should respect that decision.
In this case, it's her decision, not mine.
Again, how to obtain and install? I believe it is already mountable
and readable.
I think with the kernel above, you should be able to mount an
NTFS volume (mount -t ntfs) without using fuse.
That's what I observe. I put entries into /etc/fstab for her,
and the NT disc gets auto mounted with no problem. But she
still considers it "no access". I think mostly because most
of the useful stuff on it is Windows NT executables.
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Wayne Topa wrote:
Mike McCarty([EMAIL PROTECTED]) is reported to have said:
Ok, so how does one get a newer kernel, install it, and get
all the memory available?
That question indicates, to me at least, that you don't know as much
about Debian as I thought you did. That's not your fault, I 'assumed'
to much. My answers, as well as others I think, assumed you knew more
than you do so were not as helpful as they might have been. Yes, I do
recall that you run FC but I didn't realize it had become a turn-key
distro. I haven't run RH since '92.
I know how to do the necessary admin with FC. Debian I'm much less
capable with. I wouldn't call FC "turnkey". But it uses a completely
different set of admin tools.
Maybe the problems your GF (you) have been running into are due to not
keeping her system up to date. Maybe she (you) didn't realize Debian
had that feature.
Possibly. I'm aware that Debian must have a means for updating, but
I'll admit that I don't know the details of it. That's my failing,
not yours.
I don't recall you saying which dist your GF is using. Is she running
etch (stable) or what? That in important for us to be able to assist
you (her).
Stable.
She (you) might try do a aptitude update && aptitude upgrade to get,
whichever dist she (you) are running, up to date. That may fix some
of her (your) problems.
That is certainly worth trying, at least.
Updating a kernel is no more then finding the kernels available for
the dist she is running, and then running 'aptitude install
(linux-image|kernel-image)-kernel-version.
This will not require her (you) to do any compiling. If you want to
compile the kernel, look for, using apt-cache search,
(linux-source | kernel-source).
Pardon me for being somewhat addled, I'm getting too old for this...
I haven't noticed that you are addled.
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Nate Bargmann wrote:
* Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007 Sep 26 03:22 -0500]:
Ron Johnson wrote:
On 09/25/07 21:33, Mike McCarty wrote:
[snip]
USB keyboard? (I've always been leery of them, because of the
mutually-exclusive HID and {o,u}chi drivers.
Oops! I somehow neglected to specify...
PS/2 style keyboard
PS/2 style mouse
Keyboard works
PS/2 style keyboard
USB style mouse
Keyboard stops working
Same setup works with you-know-what.
I have two IBM ThinkCentre machines each with a PS/2 keyboard and USB
mouse that have been running Debian for well over a year with no
problems of any sort. They were updated to Stable/Etch this spring and
work like a hose. I suspect her machine has some flaky USB hardware.
I suppose that is possible, though the BIOS and Windows have
no troubles seeing both at the same time.
I have plugged USB peripherals into my T23 laptop (keyboard and mouse)
and both devices "just worked" without my intervention. This has been
within the past 24 to 30 months. What version of Debian does she have
installed?
I'd have to check. I know it was installed within the last
couple of years. Actually, looking back in my e-mail records,
it was probably in Sep 2005. I don't think it has been updated
much if any since then. I updated her Thunderbird to 2.0.0.6
just the other day, but I don't see any reasonable possibility
to USB incompatibilities being resolved by that.
It will be interesting to see if the memory stick works with her
desktop and hub under XP. The fact it does work under XP with her
laptop does not rule out hardware incompatibility with her desktop
machine.
Yes.
She's quite familiar with Windows XP. She uses it at work.
As do I and that experience has taught me to *never* use it at home.
In fact, my work laptop is not allowed on my home network.
Dif'runt strokes for dif'runt folks, I guess. I don't and never
have particularly cared for any of the versions of Windows.
However, much of the touted "vulnerability" of Windows is more
due to it not protecting witless users from themselves than
inherent vulnerability. I used W95 for quite a number of years,
and never once got compromised.
Living behind a router with firewall enabled is a big help
in that regard. So is not doing dubious things like downloading
and executing programs in order to get new command line prompts
and cute icons.
How current is her Debian install?
From stable, but a little old.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
Nate Bargmann wrote:
Plenty of stuff, lots of replies and multipost threads. Can't see any
bug reports. Guess it's off to the BTS to search there. Drat.
How 'bout that? Search of the BTS for submitter reports no reports
found. Huh? What address did you submit them from?
H, methinks the emperor has no clothes. ;-)
Hey, that's pretty pejorative. I TOLD you I don't use
Debian. I didn't submit from my machine. So it isn't in
my name, is it?
How about engaging brain before starting mouth?
Mr. McCarty wore out his welcome with me sometime back when I made an
honest effort to help and was dismissed. This thread makes me think
Well, I don't recall that, but if I did, then I'm sorry.
Mr. McCarty may be playing the part of a troll. YMMV.
Not at all.
Trolling, perhaps?
No. It seems likely that she will blast Debian, and I just didn't
want to "disappear" off the list with no explanation, and thought
that some explanation might aid the group.
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Gabriel Parrondo wrote:
El mar, 25-09-2007 a las 20:49 -0500, Mike McCarty escribió:
Gabriel Parrondo wrote:
El mar, 25-09-2007 a las 18:43 -0500, Mike McCarty escribió:
Works on my distro. I can't get it to work with Debian.
Cool! What distro is that? What version of gnome does it run?
[snip]
But, since you ask, specifically, I'm using GDM 2.6.0.0
GDM = Gnome Display Manager?
Yes.
I was asking about the gnome version ('System->About gnome' or
'Desktop->About gnome' or 'dpkg -l gnome').
I dunno what you refer to here, the distro on which it
works is not Debian, so there is no "dpkg". However,
in an gnome-terminal,
$ gnome-about
gives a screen indicating version 2.6, build date 3/31/2004
$ rpm -qa | grep -i gnome | grep -i print
libgnomeprint15-0.37-9
libgnomeprintui22-2.6.0-1
libgnomeprint22-2.6.0-1
gnome-print-devel-0.37-9
gnome-print-0.37-9
OTOH, if you're actually using that version of GDM you must be running
an old version of gnome as well. Probably before the
What I said. It's old.
lets-cut-down-every-app policy started...
Hmm. I haven't encountered that policy.
which is considered rather old for the distro I'm using.
I haven't checked the version for Debian.
Mostly 2.18.3 if it's lenny and 2.14.something if it's etch. Don't know
about SID (2.6.20??) or sarge.
Are these GNOME or kernel versions?
:-)
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Gabriel Parrondo wrote:
El mar, 25-09-2007 a las 21:33 -0500, Mike McCarty escribió:
[snip of something I can't help with]
She can't associate multiple queues with a single printer,
but there is already another thread about that. There is
currently no work around, but there is hope that using the
CUPS I/F directly may work.
Let us know when you try this out. I have several instances of each
printer created in cups each one with different configuration
(grayscale, color, color high quality) and it works great. Using gnome.
Really? I worked on that repeatedly with no success. Works
great on my machine (different distro, however). I wonder if
we need to do a
# apt-get update some-package
or sth like that.
So far, she's unable to get her printer to full functionality.
I kludged up a printer description which sorta works, but
not fully. It's an HP, but I don't at present recall the
exact model number. It is a combined Printer/FAX/Scanner.
So far, it just prints either in greyscale or color, depending
on how we've edited queue at the moment. We can't select different
print quality, color/greyscale, or any other options except by
editing the one queue associated with it. It is also supposed
to be able to read and print camera memory sticks, but that
only works in stand-alone mode, with no way to get the info
from the printer to the computer. Supposedly, this works
with THE OTHER OS, though that is unverified. Anyway, at
present it's running with my kludgy edit of another printer
description file, not one from Debian, and just as a simple
printer, it can't even do a realign. None of the other
functions are currently usable.
Does she have the hplip package installed?
I'm not sure that would help anyway given the way it's set up.
There was (is?) no proper printer definition file for
that printer. I kludged up another printer which is somewhat
close just to make it work with HPJIS, and renamed the file.
It may have HPLIP, but I doubt it.
It includes an app called hp-toolbox which let's you do all the tasks
you would do with the hp-director in WS (i.e. the cartridge
cleaning/realignment, see how loaded the cartridges are, etc)
This printer is pretty smart. It may not need so much.
I dunno. If I replace a cartridge, it _automatically_
runs some sort of alignment on itself.
But presently, we can't change the dpi etc. That's more
the kind of thing needed. I need a _proper_ printer def
file. Is there an apt-get which can be done to check for
additional printer defs? Making the scanner part and the
FAX work is another issue. She really wants the scanner
to work as well. I have no experience with SANE or any
scanner drivers on Linux.
Another issue which has never been posted: She installed more
memory. She had 512 MB RAM, and now has 1.5 Gig. Unfortunately,
Debian seems only to recognize just under 1.0 Gig. I haven't
looked on the web for a fix for that, so I haven't posted
here. Part of the reason I haven't gone searching for a
solution, is that her reaction to that was to purchase a copy
of Windows XP.
apt-get install linux-image-686-bigmem
Aha! Thanks!
She's sorta impulsive, sometimes.
Partly, she also wants access to a disc which was formatted
by Windows NT, and which she considers she has no access to
at present. (Not quite true, but I try not to argue with her
very much. It is true that she has some apps on there which
won't run under Debian.)
ntfs-3g if it is ntfs.
?
# apt-get ntfs-3g
?
It is indeed NTFS.
I dunno how much progress will be made, even if I can make
everything work by Saturday evening. She seems kinda to have
made up her mind. I have, um, limited influence over her
behavior. :-)
Well, the windows' been bought already...
Yeppers. But not opened. However F-PROT has been purchased,
and I suspect its a "non-returnable" kinda thing. I've
got one of those "funny feelings" that her mind is kinda
made up.
Mike
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Re: Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
Ron Johnson wrote:
On 09/25/07 21:33, Mike McCarty wrote:
[snip]
USB keyboard? (I've always been leery of them, because of the
mutually-exclusive HID and {o,u}chi drivers.
Oops! I somehow neglected to specify...
PS/2 style keyboard
PS/2 style mouse
Keyboard works
PS/2 style keyboard
USB style mouse
Keyboard stops working
Same setup works with you-know-what.
["snip no fix yet"s]
Another issue which has never been posted: She installed more
memory. She had 512 MB RAM, and now has 1.5 Gig. Unfortunately,
Debian seems only to recognize just under 1.0 Gig. I haven't
looked on the web for a fix for that, so I haven't posted
here. Part of the reason I haven't gone searching for a
solution, is that her reaction to that was to purchase a copy
of Windows XP.
That's easy to solve. Will require a kernel rebuild, though.
However, Debian kernels have had CONFIG_HIGHMEM4G=y for quite some
time now. More than a year.
Ok, so how does one get a newer kernel, install it, and get
all the memory available?
She's sorta impulsive, sometimes.
Partly, she also wants access to a disc which was formatted
by Windows NT, and which she considers she has no access to
at present.
libntfs-3g12. Will need a FUSE-enabled kernel.
Again, how to obtain and install? I believe it is already
mountable and readable.
[snip]
Certain things will work wonderfully for her. She'll discover,
though, that the grass isn't greener, just a different variety.
She's quite familiar with Windows XP. She uses it at work.
She seems kinda to have
made up her mind. I have, um, limited influence over her
behavior. :-)
You need a more compliant girlfriend. Lucy Liu-bot comes to mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Dated_a_Robot
:-)
Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish, and he'll sit in a boat and drink
beer for a day.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
Roger B.A. Klorese wrote:
Well, yes, but it remains to be seen whether everyone considers this
"room for improvement." A lot of projects and products spend a lot of
time working on non-goals; the question at hand is whether adoption by
the level of user in question is or is not a goal.
I'm sure Debian doesn't depend on any one user. I'm also
sure that she's not the only one like her.
Anyway, I think this thread has probably already gone on
too long.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
cothrige wrote:
After walking in from a day of my kids' soccer matches I noticed this
thread and feel I really must post a comment. I may be very late to
It seems like just one of those things, doesn't it :-)
[snip]
which posts or questions were those being talked about here. Really,
with everything being discussed here how could everybody notice and
remember every thread?
Of course not.
I also think everyone here has a desire for Linux to be a viable
alternative to Windows (I happen to believe it already is one since I in
fact use it instead of that OS) and so would certainly assume your
Umm, some comments I've received cause me to believe that not
everyone here is like that.
In any case, my desire was not to ask for help, as that's
already been done before. My intent was to inform of what
kinds of considerations went into the decision of one Debian
user to switch to Windows XP. I wasn't making a last moment
plea for help to try to keep her on Debian, nor trying to
criticize Debian devel group nor any of the users nor other
members of this forum. I'm not sure but what her reaction would
be the same for any Linux distro. Ecah has its strong points
and weak points. I've used several, and none is clearly
better than all the others for everyone.
[snip]
I believe that is what the poster above was saying, and most likely you
understood him as being defensive or confrontational. I really don't
think the people here are trying to be in any way argumentative, but
rather are asking for more info, even if you aren't going to be here to
hear the answers. It is just a natural desire to see what mistakes were
See my other message which lists the challenges for Debian with
her hardware setup. They have been mentioned before (except for
the RAM upgrade, which occurred just a few weeks ago), but I
repost them just for those who have interest.
Whether having fixes by Saturday will cause her to retain
Debian is a debatable point. I suspect that Windows XP is
going on this machine, and that's the end of the matter.
Even if Debian survives as a boot option, and the machine
becomes dual boot, I suspect that Debian will not get booted
very often, if at all.
I intend to make a backup before doing anything drastic,
at least. I may just make a tar of the entire disc using
Knoppix or sth like that as well.
Mike
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Repost of some earlier described "challenges"
These have (nearly) all been posted before, but some have requested
that they be reposted. If you don't like reading stuff
YET AGAIN, then just skip this message, please.
My GF installed a USB mouse, and her keyboard went away.
They work together with THE OTHER OS. IIRC (it's been
a while) using a debug startup allows us to get up to
a root login, and look around, but using ^D from there
makes the keyboard go away. I can't tell if this is
an X Window problem, or below that, or what. The current
work around is to use an old PS/2 style mouse. The symptoms
are just as if the keyboard were unplugged. There is no
response whatsoever.
My GF also can't mount a memory stick using a Dazzle
USB I/F through a hub. A regular disc (Western Digital)
mounts and runs fine on the same hub. When the Dazzle
is plugged directly into the USB port on the machine,
it can be mounted. This is extremely inconvenient, as
all the USB ports on this machine are in the back,
and it is inside an armoir. The workaround is to pull
the machine out of the armoir, and leave it hanging
out, and plug the Dazzle into the USB. This is something
I have to do, as she is mobility impaired (paraplegic).
Since I live several miles away, this is quite inconvenient.
Another work around is to use the same hub and Dazzle
I/F with Windows on a laptop, then e-mail herself using a dial-
up connection, to an account she can read with Debian. This
is slow, clumsy, and inconvenient as well.
She can't associate multiple queues with a single printer,
but there is already another thread about that. There is
currently no work around, but there is hope that using the
CUPS I/F directly may work.
So far, she's unable to get her printer to full functionality.
I kludged up a printer description which sorta works, but
not fully. It's an HP, but I don't at present recall the
exact model number. It is a combined Printer/FAX/Scanner.
So far, it just prints either in greyscale or color, depending
on how we've edited queue at the moment. We can't select different
print quality, color/greyscale, or any other options except by
editing the one queue associated with it. It is also supposed
to be able to read and print camera memory sticks, but that
only works in stand-alone mode, with no way to get the info
from the printer to the computer. Supposedly, this works
with THE OTHER OS, though that is unverified. Anyway, at
present it's running with my kludgy edit of another printer
description file, not one from Debian, and just as a simple
printer, it can't even do a realign. None of the other
functions are currently usable.
Another issue which has never been posted: She installed more
memory. She had 512 MB RAM, and now has 1.5 Gig. Unfortunately,
Debian seems only to recognize just under 1.0 Gig. I haven't
looked on the web for a fix for that, so I haven't posted
here. Part of the reason I haven't gone searching for a
solution, is that her reaction to that was to purchase a copy
of Windows XP.
She's sorta impulsive, sometimes.
Partly, she also wants access to a disc which was formatted
by Windows NT, and which she considers she has no access to
at present. (Not quite true, but I try not to argue with her
very much. It is true that she has some apps on there which
won't run under Debian.)
I dunno how much progress will be made, even if I can make
everything work by Saturday evening. She seems kinda to have
made up her mind. I have, um, limited influence over her
behavior. :-)
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Wayne Topa wrote:
Mike McCarty([EMAIL PROTECTED]) is reported to have said:
[that he couldn's use the GUI to put multiple queues on one printer]
I don't run Gnome or KDE here I hope they accept the Cups config.
If not, someone someone that does run them, should submit a bug
report.
CUPS Administration -> Add Printer
All of the options, except the printer name, are the same as the one
you already have, (IIRC). Then change the options to be what you want.
Ok. Where do I locate the CUPS Administration? Do you mean use
the "web based" CUPS location via web browser on the local machine?
Yep, http://localhost:631/printers/
I've printed off the CUPS docu from their home page, and
I'll give the web or CLI another try tomorrow night. (If
she'll let me, that is :-)
Thanks!
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Gabriel Parrondo wrote:
El mar, 25-09-2007 a las 18:43 -0500, Mike McCarty escribió:
Works on my distro. I can't get it to work with Debian.
Cool! What distro is that? What version of gnome does it run?
Maybe it's running a newer version that didn't hit debian yet.
I'm normally not into going on a distro support list, and
then telling them that some other distro is better. Kinda
rude, y'know? Each distro has its advantages and disadvantages.
No distro is better'n another in all ways for all people.
But, since you ask, specifically, I'm using GDM 2.6.0.0
which is considered rather old for the distro I'm using.
I haven't checked the version for Debian.
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 06:43:47PM -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
Gabriel Parrondo wrote:
Why are you saying the version shipped with Debian is broken? Have you
tried it on other distros and it's different?
Yes.
[snip]
This is gnome, love it or leave it!
Works on my distro. I can't get it to work with Debian.
what does it do Mike? details man!
It's difficult to remember now, but what I recall was that
I tried starting the GUI, and selected "Add new printer"
or sth like that. When I tried to create the new instance,
I was not allowed to select the one which was already
there. It wanted me to enter a whole new connection,
name, type, etc. Trying to create a new printer with
a new name but the same connection was also refused.
It appeared not to understand what I was trying to do.
It seemed to think that it was some sort of error to try
to associate multiple queues with one physical printer
connection.
On another distro, this is not a restriction.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
s. keeling wrote:
[snip]
fwiw, I've found a really good place to ask difficult questions is in
debian-mentors.
Thanks for the pointer. If I can convince her not to wipe
Debian from the disc, I think I'll subscribe there as well.
I don't have much hopes on that point, however.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
John Hasler wrote:
Mike writes:
There are those here who have expressed a desire for Linux to be a viable
alternative to Windows for more users. It was directed at those people.
You told us that some unnamed person had unidentified problems which they
reported in some unknown way with reportedly unsatisfactory results. What
use to us is that?
Once again, mail to you has bounced.
If you read here regularly, then you would have seen the reports,
because they were put here. There isn't any hope for response
from people who do not read or do not respond to what they read.
My only point was this: She's leaving Debian because she perceives
that it doesn't always "just work", and when it doesn't, often there
isn't a fix easily available.
That's it.
For those who wish to know what has caused one user to buy Windows,
and might cause a class of similar users to do the same, that is useful
information. For those who don't care, it isn't.
You may decide for yourself which category you fall into.
I'm not responding further to you, unless you provide me with
an e-mail address which doesn't bounce.
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Gabriel Parrondo wrote:
El mar, 25-09-2007 a las 15:04 -0500, Mike McCarty escribió:
That's precisely it. It appears to me that the GNOME printer
manager shipped with Debian is either broken or deficient
in this area.
Why are you saying the version shipped with Debian is broken? Have you
tried it on other distros and it's different?
Yes.
[snip]
This is gnome, love it or leave it!
Works on my distro. I can't get it to work with Debian.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
John Hasler wrote:
I tried to reply off-list, but the email bounced.
Mike writes:
I provide this information only as an indicator of where there might be
an opportunity to win more Windows users and lose fewer.
I don't see that you provided any useful information.
Then it wasn't directed at you.
There are those here who have expressed a desire for Linux
to be a viable alternative to Windows for more users. It was
directed at those people.
I didn't intend to respond any further on the list, since
my statement has been seen, and I see no point in burdening
the list with arguments.
Mike
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Re: GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
Wayne Topa wrote:
Mike McCarty([EMAIL PROTECTED]) is reported to have said:
My GF has a Debian/GNOME/CUPS machine, and wishes to associate more than
one queue with it. I use Fedora/GNOME/CUPS and have no problem doing
that, but so far have failed to manage it with Debian. Can anyone
help me get her machine set up to have more than one queue on
her printer? The connectivity is local through USB, if that makes
any difference.
If by queue you mean another printer instance, ie same printer used
but a different dpi etc, then you just make a new printer with a
different name.
That's precisely it. It appears to me that the GNOME printer
manager shipped with Debian is either broken or deficient
in this area.
CUPS Administration -> Add Printer
All of the options, except the printer name, are the same as the one
you already have, (IIRC). Then change the options to be what you want.
Ok. Where do I locate the CUPS Administration? Do you mean use
the "web based" CUPS location via web browser on the local machine?
I have, for instance, an HP6P laser printer I have set up printer HP
as draft, 300dpi, printer 6P for 600dpi, and printer HP6PCB for
printed circuit board transfers.
Hope I understood you correctly.
Oh, yes.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike Bird wrote:
On Tuesday 25 September 2007 12:45, Mike McCarty wrote:
I'm not trying to be mean, either. I'm reporting a single event.
We're all volunteers here. You too. If you find time I guess
some of us would appreciate your posting links to the previous
problems you discussed. And if you don't find time, we understand.
We also cannot find time to do everything we'd like to do.
I was deliberately not posting the problems, since that
might look like a complaint. I'm not trying to get action.
I really was just describing a situation. I understand there
are some here who wish that Linux were a viable alternative
to the various MicroSoft products that are available. She's
a technically competent user, just not expert at Linux, who
wants her machine just to work.
She was willing to learn to use other tools to do her work,
but she wasn't willing to spend time making the tools work.
Or at least, only limited time.
I provide this information only as an indicator of where
there might be an opportunity to win more Windows users
and lose fewer.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
Martin Marcher wrote:
Why is it that simple statments, preceded by disclaimers
indicating that they are not complaints, get treated as
complaints?
Hello,
I'm interested in the job offer you posted on
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I have several years of experience in
Desktop and Server systems with debian and other linux distributions.
I charge by the hour, every started hour is normally EUR 50. Contact
me privately if you are interested.
Sarcasm is unbecoming, especially since I am a disinterested third
party.
It's also unbecoming to quote an entire message and not even
to reply particularly to any part of it.
A: Because it reverses the normal order of conversation and
encourages quoting entire messages.
Q: Why is top-posting deprecated by some?
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
Hal Vaughan wrote:
[...]
On the other hand, I did not see a statement in your original letter
that said she (or you) actually asked for help on a mailing list or
similar forum.
Every problem she's had has been reported here with details as well.
just before this one, I seriously doubt your girlfriend has the
experience needed to use Debian. I'm not saying that to be mean. It's
She's been using computers since late 1980s or early 1990s.
She used to run a BBS back in the MSDOS days.
I'm not trying to be mean, either. I'm reporting a single event.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
Mark Phillips wrote:
Mike, you have to realize that support is provided by volunteers who
have lives (families, children, jobs, little league, etc.) outside of
supporting the software. There is no guarentee of any support when you
install Debian. But it is there. You have to learn how to ask, and
sometimes you have to ask several times before you get a response.
Of course I recognize this. I told you, I'm not complaining.
I have no oars in the water about this.
At the time the problems were first reported, details were provided.
No volunteer is going to go back and research your problem report. If
you want to solve the problem, you have to be ready to assit the
volunteers who are willing to help you when they are ready to help.
I didn't ASK for anything. I don't want anyone going back through
the archives. I don't want anyone to DO anything as a result of
what I wrote.
I'm just providing information. If it isn't useful to you, then
just ignore it.
Mike
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Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike Bird wrote:
On Tuesday 25 September 2007 09:55, Mike McCarty wrote:
(big snip)
Anyway, that's it, FWIW.
Long message wth no specifics. No way to help you.
I wasn't asking for help. I'm telling you that due to
perceived lack of help, a user is leaving (or at least
it seems to me that she will).
At the time the problems were first reported, details were provided.
Mike
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Debian may lose a user
I have some feedback about my GF who uses Debian at my suggestion.
I have no irons in the fire on this one, as I don't use Debian,
though I do administer her machine for her. So, please don't take
this as a complaint from me, as it isn't. I'm simply informing
the Debian forum of a situation.
She's had four problems with using Debian on her machine,
and support response from this forum has been somewhat less
than she had hoped for. Of the four problems, one I was able
to fix up somewhat by cooking up a printer description file
for her new printer, which now works in a limited sense. One
of them we have a work around, though it isn't pleasant, and
requires me to do some physical recabling of the machine.
The other two remain completely unfixed.
I used the "official" reporting tool on one of the problems,
and we were not even accorded the courtesy of a response
indicating that the report had been received and was going
to be acted upon. The tool did confirm that a report had
been made, but that was all. I've seen no indication from
Debian that any progress has been made.
At one point, another fellow contacted me stating that
one of the unsolved problems had also bitten him, and
wanted to know what progress or solution eventually came
out. I regretfully responded that there was, AFAIK, no
solution, and she simply lives with the fact that Debian
cannot do what she wants at all.
Anyway, she bought a copy of Windows XP a few weeks ago, and I'm
pretty sure she intends to install this weekend, since she
sent me an e-mail showing that she purchased a copy of F-Prot
for Windows. This would be a "heads up" for me, indicating
what might be on the "honey do" list for this weekend.
I provide this only to let you know that it looks like Debian
is going to lose a user to Windows shortly, due to perceived
lack of concern over user's difficulties shown by those who do
support for Debian. I have gently nudged her in the direction of
sticking with it a little longer, and so due to my reluctance to
kill Debian she has. But things seemingly have just gone on too
long.
Anyway, that's it, FWIW.
Mike
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Re: Penalty of SELinux?
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 03:11:39 -0500, Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
[snip]
packages. It is fewer than that. Compared to 10k source packages,
however, even the bloated figure of 50 is "few". BTW, I count 29
packages.
I was using the published figure for Red Hat. They included such apps
as ls, ps, mv, cp, etc. which are modified either to display or
propagate attributes of processes or files.
ls is not a package. ls comes from coreutils. Normal
I didn't say it was. You used the word "package". I used the word
"app". If each "package" has two "apps" then we get close to 50,
I think.
applications need zero modification under SELinux. Some applications
I didn't claim anything like what you say here.
[snip]
which manage security may need to be made SELinux-aware, although
this can often be done with PAM plugins, which is a standard way to do
this kind of thing in modern Unix & Linux OSs.
It would take more than just kernel, of course. I am investigating
LFS. Gentoo seems to have accepted SELinux as well, though since it is
a source distro most of the work would be easier in that case,
perhaps.
Not really. You'll have to unpatch a whole bunch of gentoo
source packages. And gentoo is further along than us with respect to
security policy integration -- the keeper of the SELinux security
policy is a gentoo core developer.
As I said, it might be a good starting place. If the patching of
the source is done right, it's dependent upon a define anyway.
I don't have high hopes for that. "Unpatching" is not difficult,
as there are diff tools which can do that automatically if one
has the original source. Providing that back to Gentoo, along
with a polite request, might get access to original source.
If, as you say, the changes are "small", then pulling the
unmodified sources for those things which are changed
for SELinux should not be difficult. Since one is going to
build from source anyway, then the rest is a shoe in.
I'm not so sure the changes are "small".
If Gentoo is not amenable, then there's SLAX, which I believe
does not have SELinux.
Mike
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GNOME: Associate multiple queues with one printer: HOW?
My GF has a Debian/GNOME/CUPS machine, and wishes to associate more than
one queue with it. I use Fedora/GNOME/CUPS and have no problem doing
that, but so far have failed to manage it with Debian. Can anyone
help me get her machine set up to have more than one queue on
her printer? The connectivity is local through USB, if that makes
any difference.
Thanks,
Mike
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Re: Penalty of SELinux?
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:54:34 -0500, Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:21:16 -0500, Mike McCarty
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Firstly: Very few packages have been actively patched to link
Something like 50 or so. ls, mv, cp, etc.
Source packages. All those are from coreutils, no?
I believe so. My response was in regards to "very few". I suppose that
is a subjective response. "50 or so" is not subjective.
My response suggests that 50 or so is inaccurate, if you count
source packages. It is fewer than that. Compared to 10k source
packages, however, even the bloated figure of 50 is "few". BTW, I
count 29 packages.
I was using the published figure for Red Hat. They included such
apps as ls, ps, mv, cp, etc. which are modified either to display
or propagate attributes of processes or files.
--8<---cut here---start->8---
libselinux1 Reverse Depends:
coreutils cron dbus dmraid dmsetup fcron gdm gnome-user-share
libblkid1 libdevmapper1.02.1 libgnomevfs2-0 libnss-db libpam-modules
librpm4.4 logrotate loop-aes-utils lvm2 mount nautilus openssh-server
passwd policycoreutils prelink rpm sysvinit sysvinit-utils udev
util-linux xdm
--8<---cut here---end--->8---
So, ls can't display the extended attributes of the files?
And ps can't display the attributes of the processes?
And find can't be used selectively to find files based on
the extended attributes?
Right. But a few hundred KB in memory is a smallish penalty, and
More subjectivity :-)
All opinions are subjective.
Naturally.
even 708 old hardware seems to be running it fine for me.
My objection is to having on my machine at all.
Feel free to create your own apt sources are where you
specifically override the defaults you do not like. This is the only
recourse for those of us who do not like some aspect of the
distribution, and care enough to take the effort to fork out own
packages (I do my own kernel, uml, emacs. gnus, et. al packages)
It would take more than just kernel, of course. I am investigating
LFS. Gentoo seems to have accepted SELinux as well, though since
it is a source distro most of the work would be easier in that
case, perhaps.
Mike
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Re: Penalty of SELinux?
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:21:16 -0500, Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Firstly: Very few packages have been actively patched to link
Something like 50 or so. ls, mv, cp, etc.
Source packages. All those are from coreutils, no?
I believe so. My response was in regards to "very few". I suppose
that is a subjective response. "50 or so" is not subjective.
[snip]
Right. But a few hundred KB in memory is a smallish penalty, and
More subjectivity :-)
even 708 old hardware seems to be running it fine for me.
My objection is to having on my machine at all.
Mike
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Re: Penalty of SELinux?
consultores agropecuarios wrote:
The real problem with SELinux is that it come from a really well known
untrusted organization around the globe; and if the Debian Team accep it
blindly, Debian is going to become as Windows; remember that, who
I don't think anyone has accepted SELinux "blindly".
creates, know it the best; and a group of pepople could see into our own
machine when they want it. Particularly, i do not want that! It is
exactly, giving the realized work, for decades, to the enemy!
The NSA is not the enemy, unless you are trying to subvert
the USA. I don't want SELinux, either, but that isn't the
reason.
But, this is getting into topic drift. On Fedora, there is
an extensive argument going on over this.
Mike
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Re: Penalty of SELinux?
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:14:57 -0400, Douglas A Tutty
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
On small systems, what about the penalty of just larger binaries? I
have some older boxes with 16-64 MB ram.
Firstly: Very few packages have been actively patched to link
Something like 50 or so. ls, mv, cp, etc.
with selinux. Second, the selinux libraries are shared libs -- so the
actual binary is not significantly increased in size (well, dpkg is the
exception, since it is linked statically with selinux).
It does have to be in memory, however.
My Pentium II box with 64MB of ram seems to run in SELinux
strict mode just fine -- it is my firewall.
Good for you.
Mike
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Re: Penalty of SELinux?
Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
Its not their thing either.
I know there are minidistros like DSL but DSL is small as in how much
can they pack onto a small CD, not how to shoehorn into 16-32 MB ram.
I'm also not sure how they keep up with security fixes.
I beg to differ. One of the "selling points" of DSL is that
it has a small RAM footprint. I have run it on a 486 with
16MB of RAM.
OBSD becomes new every 6 months with security patches whenever, but I
can't build with this small ram and especially this small a drive.
My biggest problem is that there is not OS designed to be great for a
stand-alone old small computer. An OS that can both fit on small
resources, and be kept up-to-date without a separate build machine.
Yes, there is that. Part of it is that we live in a "throw away"
world these days. What benefit expending effort keeping old machines
going, when people want the newer faster ones, anyway?
Linux's target is the modern desktop and the focus is on keeping up with
That is not my impression. My impression is that all UNIX like OS
target and has targeted large servers. Or at least, that's the
deployment.
new hardware. The BSDs keep the drivers for old hardware but patches
require building and that building relies on gcc which isn't optimized
for use on old systems.
So I'll keep looking.
I wish you success.
Mike
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Re: Systemmonitor im KDE Kicker aktivieren?
Gebhardt Thomas wrote:
Hallo,
ich habe verschiedene Etch-Rechner (und auch diverse Kubuntu-Varianten).
Leider ist dies keine deutsche sprache Liste.
Bei einigen dieser Rechner wird bei der Auswahl der verfügbaren
Miniprogramme der "Systemmonitor" angeboten, bei anderen nicht.
Ich grüble nun darüber nach, was ich tun muss, damit auf allen Rechnern
der Systemmonitor verfügbar ist.
Vielleicht hast du der Systemmonitor nicht installiert?
Soweit ich es erkennen kann, entspricht dem Miniprogramm das Plugin
/usr/lib/kde3/systemtray_panelapplet.so aus dem kicker-Paket, das bei
allen Rechnern vorhanden ist. "ldd /usr/lib/kde3/systemtray_panelapplet.so"
zeigt auch jeweils, dass alle Lib-Abhängigkeiten aufgelöst werden können.
Hmm.
Hat jemand einen Tipp, woran es liegen könnte, dass trotzdem z.Tl. der
"Systemmonitor" nicht in der Liste der verfügbaren "Miniprogramme" angeboten
wird?
Es scheint, dass vielleicht nur der Launcher nicht installiert ist.
Leider weiss ich nichts davon.
Can anyone help this guy get his system monitor working? It looks like
perhaps the app is there, but not the launcher.
Danke, Th. Gebhardt
Bitte, und auf Englisch!
Mike
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Can't configure multiple print queues for one printer
I administer a machine on which we wish to have multiple
queues associated with a single locally (USB) connected
printer. This machine is GNOME. I can't seem to figure
out how to do that with Debian. I use FC2 on another machine,
and have no troubles configuring multiple queues for my
single printer (local, parallel).
Can anyone help me configure Debian for multiple queues
for this one printer?
We want a greyscale queue, and a color queue.
Mike
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Re: Upgrading from Etch to Lenny
Miles Bader wrote:
Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Lighten up, Mike! You are reading into my reply a connotation which I
did not intend and which is not supported by the context.
If you want people to take you lightly, then add a smiley.
The word "humbug" basically contains an implicit smiley
Bullshit
Read the novel which keeps it alive today. He was complaining
that Christmas is a fraud.
Put an implicit smiley on that.
Mike
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Re: SELinux Suggestion
Joey Hess wrote:
SE Linux is already included in Debian, and is even installed, though
not enabled, by default. You can remove the selinux-policy-* packages to
remove it.
That is naive, is it not? The apps themselves have to be SELinux-
aware. So, one can remove the policy packages, but not SELinux.
It looks like I am too late, and Debian is already infected. Oh,
well.
Mike
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Re: LPR and CUPS
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
[snip]
to choose not to use cups). I'm baffled by the source of this
continued trouble, though I don't deny its existence.
You should have stopped sooner! You're just baffled - FULL STOP!
:-)
Nice to see you again! Still getting SPAM? I'm not.
Mike
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Re: Upgrading from Etch to Lenny
Russell L. Harris wrote:
* Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070920 22:21]:
Russell L. Harris wrote:
* Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070920 21:10]:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 04:28:09PM -0400, Gregory O'Neal wrote:
I am new to linux. I have been running Etch for a month or so now on
my Gateway Desktop. I am considering moving up to testing. This brings
up the question of what is the proper way to accomplish the upgrade?
May I humbly suggest that you may not have had time to learn
enough about linux or Debian to run testing? It is, after all,
_testing_.
Humbug! Your comment may be applicable to "unstable", but not to
"testing". I ran "unstable" for about two years, and I experienced
very few difficulties.
"Humbug" is a very strong word. It indicates intentional fraudulent
claims. Perhaps you'd like to moderate your statement?
Mike
Lighten up, Mike! You are reading into my reply a connotation which I
did not intend and which is not supported by the context.
If you want people to take you lightly, then add a smiley.
The meaning of a word is determined by the context in which the word
is used. The lexicon or dictionary is merely a compilation of
You sound like Humpty Dumpty.
Mike
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SELinux Suggestion
May I suggest to the Debian developers that, should they
contemplate including SELinux into Debian, they not follow
Red Hat's decision to make it a fixed part of the distro,
which can be disabled, but rather continue to provide a
version of the distro which just does not have SELinux
in it at all? If the Debian Devel Team decides to incorporate
SELinux, then I recommend that the distro be split into
a SELinux and a non-SELinux version. Merely turning SELinux
off is (IMO, after seeing the mess over at Fedora the last
few years) not enough.
Mike
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Re: Upgrading from Etch to Lenny
Russell L. Harris wrote:
* Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070920 21:10]:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 04:28:09PM -0400, Gregory O'Neal wrote:
I am new to linux. I have been running Etch for a month or so now on
my Gateway Desktop. I am considering moving up to testing. This brings
up the question of what is the proper way to accomplish the upgrade?
May I humbly suggest that you may not have had time to learn enough
about linux or Debian to run testing? It is, after all, _testing_.
Humbug! Your comment may be applicable to "unstable", but not to
"testing". I ran "unstable" for about two years, and I experienced
very few difficulties.
"Humbug" is a very strong word. It indicates intentional fraudulent
claims. Perhaps you'd like to moderate your statement?
Mike
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Re: cmdline tool to search through pdf files?
Ron Johnson wrote:
On 06/21/07 13:44, Tod Detre wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Most pdf's are mainly text. You should be able to use standard tools
like grep and perl.
But PDF is compressed.
?
You could try converting to post script and searching, I suppose.
But I never heard about PDF being compressed.
Mike
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Re: chkrootkit and rkhunter are too old ?
Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
Good point. Too bad tripwire isn't on Knoppix.
One might e-mail Knopper :-)
One might also do his own respin :-)
Mike
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Re: using sizeof
Jon Dowland wrote:
Because sizeof is not really the size of the struct, it is
the distance between adjacent structs in an array.
Alignment forces the extra bytes
I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying here. Yes,
alignment pads out the structure. But I'm not sure where
arrays come into it :- sizeof(struct whatever) is applicable
to a single instance of a struct too.
What he's saying is that
struct FredStruct Fred[2];
...
sizeof(struct Fred[0])
is the same as
(void *)(&Fred[1])-(void *)(&Fred[0])
Structures may get padding at the end precisely for this
reason. It is not obvious that this is the case when one
talks about a single instance.
Mike
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Re: How can I acces unformatted cd/dvd with data on
Michael Schwinck wrote:
I am running etch (last updated in April 2007) and trying to read a dvd
which contains one big file (no file system). - It has been written by a
dvd-recorder (connected to a tv set). But also writing e.g. a tar
archive to a cd leads to the same issue:
/var/log/messages extract
.. 15:09:18 localhost kernel: hda: media error (blank): status=0x51
{ DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
.. 15:09:18 localhost kernel: hda: media error (blank): error=0x84
{ AbortedCommand LastFailedSense=0x08 }Sep 20 15:09:18 localhost
kernel: ide: failed opcode was: unknown
.. 15:09:18 localhost kernel: ATAPI device hda:
.. 15:09:18 localhost kernel: Error: Blank check -- (Sense key=0x08)
.. 15:09:18 localhost kernel: "28 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 "
.. 15:09:18 localhost kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev hda, sector 0
What I tried is to read some bytes of the dvd/cd issuing
"dd if=/dev/cdrom of=./tf bs=512 count=1" (you can vary "bs" that does
not change anything).
I assume /dev/cdrom corresponds with a block device, however the dvd/cd
is unformatted, so data can not be accessed this way.
Any ideas how to read the data?
The messages you have above do not indicate that you have
any data. There is a difference between a BLANK CDROM and
a CDROM which has no file system on it, but does have
a file.
Mike
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Re: Debian can't mount Camera Memory Stick
Ron Johnson wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/09/07 16:59, Mike McCarty wrote:
Andrei Popescu wrote:
lkml?
What is lkml?
This is not an insult, but a stunned question: You've been around
Linux this long and don't know what that means?
Since lower case, I thought some sort of Debian command to report
defects.
But, my GF isn't using Linux, she is using Debian Linux.
If it needs to go upstream, then Debian should make that decision.
And you didn't take 10 seconds to Google it Shame on you!
This, I'll accept.
Mike
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Re: How to add dir to path
Manon Metten wrote:
Hi Mike,
On 8/7/07, Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I do believe he's got it... almost.
Errr... She :-)
Sorry 'bout that! Hard to see what you look like! Abject apologies
and all that.
Also, that's a better quote (from "My Fair Lady").
If ENV_VAR is an environment variable, then the shell interprets
$ENV_VAR as a request to remove $ENV_VAR from the command, and replace
it with the value of ENV_VAR. So...
$ ENV_VAR1="Fred Flintstone"
$ ENV_VAR2=$ENV_VAR
sets ENV_VAR2 to be the value of ENV_VAR at the time of the assignment,
or "Fred Flintstone".
$ ENV_VAR2=ENV_VAR
Ooopsies! Should have been ENV_VAR1
sets ENV_VAR2 to be "ENV_VAR1".
This is confusing me. I understand that if ENV_VAR is an environment
variable
than $ENV_VAR represents ENV_VARs value.
But this I don't understand:
$ ENV_VAR1="Fred Flintstone"
$ ENV_VAR2=$ENV_VAR
Should have been $ENV_VAR1
sets ENV_VAR2 to be the value of ENV_VAR at the time of the assignment,
or "Fred Flintstone".
Did you mean
$ ENV_VAR2=$ENV_VAR1
(notice the 1 at the end)? If so, than it's clear. Or was the value of
Yes, sorry for all the typos. I think I must have gone back and added
the "1" on the end, and messed up.
[snip]
Greetings and many thanks for explaining, Manon.
Very welcome, and sorry 'bout the gender mixup and typos.
Mike
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Re: Debian can't mount Camera Memory Stick
Andrei Popescu wrote:
lkml?
What is lkml?
Mike
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Re: Debian can't mount Camera Memory Stick
Mike McCarty wrote:
My GF has a situation in which she cannot mount a camera memory
stick. Here's the setup...
CPU<--->HUB<--->Dazzle[<--Stick
Ok, I realize that it mounts when connected directly, so there
is a work around. But is anyone willing to help figure out what
is wrong so we can make this setup work? If not, then where do
I file a defect report?
Mike
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Re: Virtual Machines/Emulators
Nate Bargmann wrote:
* Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007 Aug 07 18:35 -0500]:
Nate Bargmann wrote:
* Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007 Aug 07 17:29 -0500]:
However, I'd say installation is VERY HARD.
That's why we use Debian, it makes the hard tasks easy and the
impossible ones possbile.
This is not an issue with the distro, it's a defect in the
original package. There is a version for FC, which I use,
but not for FC2, the support starts with FC5.
But the original Makefile needs to be fixed.
Perhaps my original point was too subtle.
You're hanging out on the Debian User list (welcome aboard) and
describing your pain of compiling a module on another distribution
(seems a bit odd to me, but, whatever). Might I suggest an
installation of Debian? If you do so, then your questions and our
answers will be more useful to all.
Perhaps I was being too subtle :-)
Presumably, FC7 would only need
# yum install "qemu*"
I am not and do not wish to become a Debian User. I am, however,
a Debian Administrator. My GF felt a need to have a supported OS
on her machine, which ran Windows NT. I suggested several LiveCDs
for her to try, since she doesn't like the MicroSoft Way, particularly.
I had somewhat an uphill climb, because she had REALLY not enjoyed RHL
6.0. I convinced her to give it a try, and she liked the way Linux
has progressed.
She settled on KNOPPIX, so I suggested she use Debian, which she
finds relatively satisfactory. However, I am now in the position
of having to administer her machine. Hence my membership here.
I installed and ran the emulator, and posted the results on
the Fedora Core User list. However, as a courtesy, since I have
seen discussion here about such topics as well, I posted a copy
here, since the use of Wine, DOSEmu, etc. seems to be of some
interest among all Linux users. My opinions are my own, but I
have the numbers to back them up, for any who care to get them.
Hard disk space is cheap, so give Debian a try. We'll be here to
assist in your transition.
Hard disc space is not cheap. I'm a laid off telecomm engineer.
If you think hard discs are cheap, how about donating one to me?
P.S. We won't take "no" for an answer! ;-)
See above.
Mike
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Re: Virtual Machines/Emulators
Mike McCarty wrote:
I recently developed a desire to run some emulators under Linux,
and consequently have run some of them. Here are my opinions of them,
based on install, ease of use, and speed of emulation.
The emulators I tried are DOSEMU + Freedos, BOCHS + MSDOS 6.22, and
QEMU + MSDOS 6.22. I found that each had advantages and disadvantages.
I also ran MSDOS 6.0 natively.
Two machines were used. One is an AMD 586 with 16MB of RAM and a
160 MHz processor. Another is a Presario with a 2.7 GHz Celeron.
The AMD was used only for running MSDOS 6.0 natively. The Celeron
was used to run the emulators with Linux, and also to do some
native MSDOS 6.0.
install share speed CPU hardwaresoftevents
DOSEMU easyeasyfastlow Intel only not all no
BOCHS hardhardv.slow highIntel only all yes
QEMUhardhardslowhighmultipleall no
KQEMU v.hard hard *fastlow multipleall no
KQEMU will not build properly. A buried Makefile used -nostdinc
but the source includes and . Also, the
shipped Makefile for modules in the kernel source area has
-nostdinc. As root, I created an alternate Makefile in the
kermel build area etc. So KQEMU has serious defects in the
source tarball, hence my characterization as very hard to install.
This is not the right fix. The sources need fixing, not the
Makefiles.
Why not just fast, instead of *fast?
With KQEMU acceleration, QEMU is actually no faster for emulating
16 bit code, like MSDOS and its applications. MSDOS also spends a
lot of time polling the keyboard, so I saw no decrease in CPU
utilization while the emulation was running. However, when I ran
Linux From Scratch (LFS) from an ISO image on disc, I noticed two
enhancements. First, the CPU was essentially idle (few, 5 or so extra
percent) when the emulated Linux was doing nothing. Second, the
emulation was quite a bit faster. Runing with only a terminal interface
was 182x as fast when accelerated and doing pure CPU (output redirected
to /dev/nul). However, when output was enabled (I computed several
numbers to high precision, for example e = 2.718281828459045...
to like 10,000 digits), it was only 5.6x as fast. Apparently, the
I/O to the screen eats a lot of time.
When I started up X, I found an even greater discrepancy. With
lots of screen I/O the accelerated version was only 1.9x to 2.7x
as fast as unaccelerated. But, moving windows around and so forth
was noticeably faster and smoother.
As far as pure CPU time, running the same native compiled benchmarks
resulted in QEMU+KQEMU is 2/3 as fast as just running Linux
on my machine. Any screen I/O, however, and the advantage starts going
way down. X in particular eats a *lot* of CPU. I dunno whether
that's because the emulation is having to make other calls to X,
or change the effective screen resolution, or what exactly. So,
for running emulated Linux, at least, KQEMU is definitely worth
it.
However, running freeduc emulated, and running Filets Poisson[1]
resulted in relatively high CPU utilization, though the emulated
machine was definitely smoother and faster. I supose that this
is because Filets Poisson is constantly updating the screen with
moving background fronds etc. waving in the water, and I'm seeing
the screen I/O again.
install: ease of installation
share:ease of sharing files between emulation and Linux
speed:speed of emulation
CPU: how much CPU does the emulation burn
hardware: emulates other than Intel hardware
soft: runs all software
events: supports emulating hardware events
QEMU runs something like 5x to 10x as fast as BOCHS. DOSEMU runs
40x to 50x as fast as QEMU.
BOCHS allows one to emulate various hard drives down to the
level of CHS.
I'd like to see how BOCHS et al. do for running LFS. For 16 bit
code, acceleration of QEMU is not worth the effort of installation.
For other programs, it is definitely worth it. Transferring files
is still a pain.
[1] Filets Poisson is a moving/sliding type puzzle game in which
fish are used to move the objects, hence the name. It has a background
which waves back and forth in the "water".
Mike
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Re: Virtual Machines/Emulators
Nate Bargmann wrote:
* Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007 Aug 07 17:29 -0500]:
However, I'd say installation is VERY HARD.
That's why we use Debian, it makes the hard tasks easy and the
impossible ones possbile.
This is not an issue with the distro, it's a defect in the
original package. There is a version for FC, which I use,
but not for FC2, the support starts with FC5.
But the original Makefile needs to be fixed.
Mike
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Re: Virtual Machines/Emulators
Mathias Brodala wrote:
Hi Mike.
Mike McCarty, 07.08.2007 09:22:
Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
I recently developed a desire to run some emulators under Linux,
and consequently have run some of them. Here are my opinions of them,
based on install, ease of use, and speed of emulation.
[snip]
Did you run kqemu with qemu?
No, I couldn't get it to build for me.
Well, I tracked it down. One of the sub makefiles had -nostdinc
in it, but the source was including standard includes. I took
out the -nostdinc, and got some of it to compile. But then
/lib/modules/2.6.10-1.771_FC2/build/Makefile also had that
in it, so I made (as root, of course) a copy in Makefile1 and
modified the main Makefile to use -f Makefile1 and got it to
compile and install. It's MUCH faster now.
However, I'd say installation is VERY HARD.
Mike
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Re: How to add dir to path
Manon Metten wrote:
Thanks for explaining. So I understand that export PATH=~/scripts:$PATH
concatenates "~/scripts" and "$PATH" and sets the result to be the new
$PATH.
I do believe he's got it... almost.
If ENV_VAR is an environment variable, then the shell interprets
$ENV_VAR as a request to remove $ENV_VAR from the command, and replace
it with the value of ENV_VAR. So...
$ ENV_VAR1="Fred Flintstone"
$ ENV_VAR2=$ENV_VAR
sets ENV_VAR2 to be the value of ENV_VAR at the time of the assignment,
or "Fred Flintstone".
$ ENV_VAR2=ENV_VAR
sets ENV_VAR2 to be "ENV_VAR1".
So
$ PATH=xyz:$PATH
sets PATH (not $PATH) to be the string "xyz:" followed by
the value PATH had before the assignment took place.
We could also do this...
$ ENV_VAR=PATH
$ $ENV_VAR=xyz:$PATH
So, $ENV_VAR evaluates to PATH, which is what gets put into
there. This is not the way to do it, mind you. It's just an
illustration of how bash works.
This is kinda like on my old Amiga where I have a 'path' command, but
where I must use the ADD option, otherwise the path would be replaced
(like using export PATH=~/scripts):
path ~/scripts add == export PATH=~/scripts:$PATH
If I want an environment variable available all the time, I should place it
in
either /etc/profile or ~/.bash_profile, right?
The first affects all users on the system, the latter affects you,
so long as you continue to use bash. Switch to csh, and it won't
You might also look into the use of ~/.bashrc
BTW, it's common to use $HOME instead of "~" as not all tools
know to expand it when it is used in environment variables.
Like this:
$ export PATH=$HOME/scripts:$PATH
The environment variable HOME gets set during login.
Anyway, on my machine using $HOME gives /home/jmccarty,
which can be used by any tool in any environment variable.
using "~" is ok in this circumstance, because it's in PATH,
which mostly gets looked at by bash, and other tools like
which or what, and they are smart.
Mike
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Re: How to add dir to path
Manon Metten wrote:
Hi Mike,
On 8/7/07, Mike McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Do something like this
$ export PATH=~/scripts:$PATH
If you put it into the appropriate startup script it will get done
every time.
I was looking for some kind of 'path' command but could not find anything
alike. I didn't know of 'export'.
Well, I combined two commands into one.
$ x=y
sets an environment variable x to value y.
$ export x
makes x available to all subprocesses in the tree which get created
after the export.
$ export x=y
does both at the same time. PATH is an environment variable
like any other in this regard. I don't believe that ksh
can do this, for example. I probably shouldn't have done that.
I just found out that if I add my dir to /etc/profile it's available every
time.
Umm, not where I would have put it. That affects every user.
I'd put it into ~/.bash_profile because I use bash. That way
it would affect only me. If another user doesn't use bash as
his shell, then he'll break.
Mike
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Re: Help buying Economic Printer
terryc wrote:
[snip]
Now, if you really want low cost per page, mono, look at a good dot
Did you really mean to use that word? I dunno what language you
intended, but in slangy Spanish "'mano" is short for "hermano",
or brother. But "mono" is pejorative.
Mike
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Re: How to add dir to path
Manon Metten wrote:
Hi,
I want to add the dir ~/scripts to my path, what command do I use for that?
M> echo $PATH
/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games
But how do I add ~/scripts to that path?
Do something like this
$ export PATH=~/scripts:$PATH
If you put it into the appropriate startup script it will get done
every time.
Mike
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Re: Virtual Machines/Emulators
Aenn Seidhe Priest wrote:
There's a Live CD based on Mandriva which has Virtualbox built-in. RAM
requirements are bound to be very hefty, but 1 GB should be enough.
$ head /proc/meminfo
MemTotal: 248088 kB
MemFree: 2916 kB
Buffers: 9240 kB
Cached: 51432 kB
SwapCached: 98208 kB
Active: 166328 kB
Inactive:34996 kB
HighTotal: 0 kB
HighFree:0 kB
LowTotal: 248088 kB
Mike
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Re: Virtual Machines/Emulators
Mathias Brodala wrote:
Hi Mike.
[about kqemu]
No, I couldn't get it to build for me.
How did you try? More than the following commands is not necessary:
I downloaded the source and used the recommended commands.
# apt-get install module-assistant
# m-a prepare
# m-a a-i kqemu
# modprobe kqemu
This will not work on my machine. I don't run Debian.
Mike
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Re: Virtual Machines/Emulators
Tom Grove wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
I recently developed a desire to run some emulators under Linux,
and consequently have run some of them. Here are my opinions of them,
based on install, ease of use, and speed of emulation.
The emulators I tried are DOSEMU + Freedos, BOCHS + MSDOS 6.22, and
QEMU + MSDOS 6.22. I found that each had advantages and disadvantages.
I also ran MSDOS 6.0 natively.
[snip]
I would like to see how VirtualBox stands up against the others. It
seems to be the fastest emulator when it comes to Windows. Although
this is only one person's opinion and there is no "scientific" evidence
it just feels faster.
I tried VirtualBox, and found it impossible to install on my machine.
It won't build. The build errors are rather obscure. I looked at the
"log" file they say should contain information, but here is the
head of the log file
[QUOTE MODE ON]
VirtualBox 1.4.0 installer, built Wed Jun 6 00:03:39 CEST 2007.
Testing system setup...
System setup appears correct.
Installing VirtualBox to /usr/local/innotek/VirtualBox
Output from the module build process (the Linux kernel build system)
follows:
cp: missing destination file
Try `cp --help' for more information.
[QUOTE MODE OFF]
Not very informative, is it?
Several of the compiles failed to find, for example, ,
, and other Standard Headers. I have no problem building
my own programs which use these headers.
Mike
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Re: Virtual Machines/Emulators
Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
I recently developed a desire to run some emulators under Linux,
and consequently have run some of them. Here are my opinions of them,
based on install, ease of use, and speed of emulation.
[snip]
Did you run kqemu with qemu?
No, I couldn't get it to build for me.
Mike
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