Reply to list (was: Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails))
Mathias Brodala wrote: Hello Michael. You don’t need another client since Thunderbird/Icedove has an extension[0] which enables you to reply to list only. I’m using it for a long time now. Don’t worry about the patch mentioned on the site, it’s already in Debian’s Thunderbird/Icedove package[1]. Regards, Mathias [0] http://alumnit.ca/wiki/index.php?page=ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension This first link doesn't work at the moment and the next link doesn't tell me anything useful. [1] http://packages.qa.debian.org/t/thunderbird/news/20060812T181723Z.html I have Thunderbird from sid. How do I activate the ReplyToList feature. TIA, Paul Scott -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
Daniel B. said... marc wrote: Daniel B. said... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 09:27:40AM -, marc wrote: ... And the user can also provide their own CSS too, should they wish. Right. But the reader shouldn't have to re-write a page's style sheet just to be able to read it conveniently. And no-one suggested that they should. Saying that the user can provide their own CSS suggests that that's an acceptable solution, so, yes, your words DID suggest that. No it doesn't. Really. Let's see: you can jump out of a plane, without a parachute, at 30,000 feet, should you wish, and you will reach terra firma. -- Cheers, Marc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
Joe Hart wrote: ... Sorry to butt in here, but I think a point needs to be made. A large number of modern websites do not allow the viewer to choose how to view the page. If the browser window is too large, empty space will appear on both sides. If the browser window is too small, the view will be cut. Yes, that was part of my point--many webpages are written poorly, violating the design and intent of HTML and the web. If the page is well written, scrollbars may appear. What you do mean? (Scrollbars appear normally automatically, so it doesn't a page doesn't have to be written well to make them appear. It just has to to _not_ be written so poorly that it suppresses scrollbars (which you could say is written well enough for them to appear).) Also, the appearance of a horizontal scrollbar frequently is an indication of a page's being poorly written.) Quite frequently webmasters choose fonts that are so small that they are almost non-legible, and one must increase the text size. Yes, that's another widespread problem. Hopefully this is a fad. Unfortunately, it's not a fad which we could hope they'd get tired of and drop. Much of it is ignorance (even of the fact that things look different on other people's screens because their settings (font size, screen size, browser, OS even) are different). Of course, part of it is Microsoft's bad default configuration of IE (to display HTML-default-sized text in a large physical font, inducing many web page designers to start off by trying to reduce the font size, messing things up for everyone with a properly adjusted browser (an adjusted IE or a browser with better defaults)). The whole idea of HTML was to allow the browser to adapt to the user. Definitely (or, more precisely, it's to allow the browser to adapt the content to the user). Someone decided to throw that ideology out the window. Or was too irresponsible to even notice that that was the ideology. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
marc wrote: Daniel B. said... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 09:27:40AM -, marc wrote: ... And the user can also provide their own CSS too, should they wish. Right. But the reader shouldn't have to re-write a page's style sheet just to be able to read it conveniently. And no-one suggested that they should. Saying that the user can provide their own CSS suggests that that's an acceptable solution, so, yes, your words DID suggest that. Daniel- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
said... On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 01:52:58PM -0500, Daniel B. wrote: HTML adapts to the user's browser pane width (well, if the author doesn't break HTML's ability to do that). Again, to be pedantic, it's CSS that controls the layout, hence the author simply provides multiple CSS, which is what it's designed to do. What do you mean by the author simply provides multiple CSS? If _you_ want to look at something in a full-screen browser window and _I_ want to use a half-screen-width browser window (e.g., to see two web pages side by side), how is an author going to provide multiple CSS stylesheets to cover both of us? What about every size in between? Just to be historical, HTML text adapted to the user's browser long before CSS had even been invented. Of course! (Why do you point that out?) Because I was replying to a post that suggested that CSS was the first thing that enabled a web page to adjust to a user's browser. Then you need to improve your reading skills. Or accept you cognitive dissonance and keep a careful eye on it. I said: Again, to be pedantic, it's CSS that controls the layout, hence the author simply provides multiple CSS, which is what it's designed to do. That's a sentence firmly rooted in the present. -- Cheers, Marc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
#include hallo.h * Andrei Popescu [Tue, Feb 06 2007, 10:43:32PM]: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:06:11 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where is the graphical installer, anyway? I'd love to try it out myself, I haven't got the chance (I just used NetInstall's default curses installer). Just boot with 'installgui' or 'expertgui'. I've had bad experiences with Kubuntu myself. I convinced my brother to try it, but it would freeze at loading KDE. He was pretty disappointed and gave up. Now I want to give it another try with etch as I am more experienced and I know Debian much better anyway. Such freezing at KDE start may be a typical hardware problem. For example, my brother has a really broken sound chip on his laptop and there was similar freezing when the start sound was to be played. In such cases, changing the distro won't help you much. Eduard. -- weasel jstr: in welchem rfc steht, dass du nicht in die hose machen sollst? weasel yath: es gehoert sich nicht. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Eduard Bloch wrote: #include hallo.h * Andrei Popescu [Tue, Feb 06 2007, 10:43:32PM]: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:06:11 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where is the graphical installer, anyway? I'd love to try it out myself, I haven't got the chance (I just used NetInstall's default curses installer). Just boot with 'installgui' or 'expertgui'. I've had bad experiences with Kubuntu myself. I convinced my brother to try it, but it would freeze at loading KDE. He was pretty disappointed and gave up. Now I want to give it another try with etch as I am more experienced and I know Debian much better anyway. Such freezing at KDE start may be a typical hardware problem. For example, my brother has a really broken sound chip on his laptop and there was similar freezing when the start sound was to be played. In such cases, changing the distro won't help you much. Eduard. Actually, it might. When I first tried Kubuntu, the Live CD (both Dapper and Edgy) wouldn't boot, no matter which cheat I used. However, the alternate install, which is much closer to the Debian installer worked fine. Etch installed on the same machine with no difficulties at all. But the Live Kubuntu CD's still won't boot. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF1CzAiXBCVWpc5J4RAkHOAJ93hCUXyweieJ/13epLeqCOARCPqACfZT7u qPPBkdXkvn8bWMVIcAl6Wh0= =HQak -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
Daniel B. said... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 09:27:40AM -, marc wrote: Daniel B. said... ... Please note another problem with PDF: The page size and layout are fixed. Not really a problem, more of a feature of the format; the idea being that a PDF renders the same regardless of the display platform (at least, in theory). In many situations, this is a very good thing. It's a good thing only when the exact formatting really matters. However, frequently it's a bad thing. But not if the situation requires precise formatting :-P Reread what I was responding to and my comment makes sense. Delivering it in HTML allows the browser to break the lines to fit within the the user's chosen browser pane width. That's a heck of a lot more flexible. Yup, but that's a different context to the original comment. By stating that the sea is green does not preclude the fact that it is wet. HTML adapts to the user's browser pane width (well, if the author doesn't break HTML's ability to do that). Again, to be pedantic, it's CSS that controls the layout, hence the author simply provides multiple CSS, which is what it's designed to do. What do you mean by the author simply provides multiple CSS? If _you_ want to look at something in a full-screen browser window and _I_ want to use a half-screen-width browser window (e.g., to see two web pages side by side), how is an author going to provide multiple CSS stylesheets to cover both of us? What about every size in between? Again, you've shifted the context. Of course it's not necessary in this case. However, in an attempt to provide some useful information in this post, there's an interesting approach to this issue here: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/switchymclayout The user can choose how much screen width to use for a browser, the browser can wrap regular text and tables to fit, and the user doesn't have to scroll horizontally to read the bulk of the page. And the user can also provide their own CSS too, should they wish. Right. But the reader shouldn't have to re-write a page's style sheet just to be able to read it conveniently. And no-one suggested that they should. -- Cheers, Marc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:10:41 +0100 Eduard Bloch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've had bad experiences with Kubuntu myself. I convinced my brother to try it, but it would freeze at loading KDE. He was pretty disappointed and gave up. Now I want to give it another try with etch as I am more experienced and I know Debian much better anyway. Such freezing at KDE start may be a typical hardware problem. For Or incomplete/buggy/broken drivers example, my brother has a really broken sound chip on his laptop and there was similar freezing when the start sound was to be played. In such cases, changing the distro won't help you much. A newer version might bring new drivers/workarounds. It's been more than a year (and he had a SATA system). Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 01:52:58PM -0500, Daniel B. wrote: HTML adapts to the user's browser pane width (well, if the author doesn't break HTML's ability to do that). Again, to be pedantic, it's CSS that controls the layout, hence the author simply provides multiple CSS, which is what it's designed to do. What do you mean by the author simply provides multiple CSS? If _you_ want to look at something in a full-screen browser window and _I_ want to use a half-screen-width browser window (e.g., to see two web pages side by side), how is an author going to provide multiple CSS stylesheets to cover both of us? What about every size in between? Just to be historical, HTML text adapted to the user's browser long before CSS had even been invented. Of course! (Why do you point that out?) Because I was replying to a post that suggested that CSS was the first thing that enabled a web page to adjust to a user's browser. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 09:27:40AM -, marc wrote: Daniel B. said... ... Please note another problem with PDF: The page size and layout are fixed. Not really a problem, more of a feature of the format; the idea being that a PDF renders the same regardless of the display platform (at least, in theory). In many situations, this is a very good thing. It's a good thing only when the exact formatting really matters. However, frequently it's a bad thing. If you have a regular paragraph of words, it doesn't matter exactly where the line breaks are. Therefore, delivering it in PDF with lines broken at some particular length requires viewing it in a window wide enough to see whole lines. Delivering it in HTML allows the browser to break the lines to fit within the the user's chosen browser pane width. That's a heck of a lot more flexible. HTML adapts to the user's browser pane width (well, if the author doesn't break HTML's ability to do that). Again, to be pedantic, it's CSS that controls the layout, hence the author simply provides multiple CSS, which is what it's designed to do. What do you mean by the author simply provides multiple CSS? If _you_ want to look at something in a full-screen browser window and _I_ want to use a half-screen-width browser window (e.g., to see two web pages side by side), how is an author going to provide multiple CSS stylesheets to cover both of us? What about every size in between? Just to be historical, HTML text adapted to the user's browser long before CSS had even been invented. Of course! (Why do you point that out?) The user can choose how much screen width to use for a browser, the browser can wrap regular text and tables to fit, and the user doesn't have to scroll horizontally to read the bulk of the page. And the user can also provide their own CSS too, should they wish. Right. But the reader shouldn't have to re-write a page's style sheet just to be able to read it conveniently. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Daniel B. wrote: HTML adapts to the user's browser pane width (well, if the author doesn't break HTML's ability to do that). Again, to be pedantic, it's CSS that controls the layout, hence the author simply provides multiple CSS, which is what it's designed to do. What do you mean by the author simply provides multiple CSS? If _you_ want to look at something in a full-screen browser window and _I_ want to use a half-screen-width browser window (e.g., to see two web pages side by side), how is an author going to provide multiple CSS stylesheets to cover both of us? What about every size in between? Just to be historical, HTML text adapted to the user's browser long before CSS had even been invented. Of course! (Why do you point that out?) The user can choose how much screen width to use for a browser, the browser can wrap regular text and tables to fit, and the user doesn't have to scroll horizontally to read the bulk of the page. And the user can also provide their own CSS too, should they wish. Right. But the reader shouldn't have to re-write a page's style sheet just to be able to read it conveniently. Sorry to butt in here, but I think a point needs to be made. A large number of modern websites do not allow the viewer to choose how to view the page. If the browser window is too large, empty space will appear on both sides. If the browser window is too small, the view will be cut. If the page is well written, scrollbars may appear. Quite frequently webmasters choose fonts that are so small that they are almost non-legible, and one must increase the text size. Hopefully this is a fad. The whole idea of HTML was to allow the browser to adapt to the user. Someone decided to throw that ideology out the window. Joe -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF02ERiXBCVWpc5J4RAuytAJ0YlUjkrCCtnzu5zVVjRjVnJJZD0QCfRtWg fzt1fhAqJ5tTQsgMH3p64nU= =fvWO -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 08:30:21AM +, Anthony Campbell wrote: [..] I've been using Debian (Sid) exclusively for 4-5 years now. However, as I've posted elsewhere on this list, when I bought a new Thinkpad Z61M last week I had a lot of problems with getting Sid to work properly. The wireless wasn't recognized and, more seriously, nor was the sound. I struggled for two days, but in spite of a lot of helpful advice from people here and elsewhere it still wouldn't work. I therefore tried Ubuntu and both wireless and sound worked out of the box. Do you know what the differences are? Looks like a bug report is in order. -- Chris. == Don't forget to check that your /etc/apt/sources.lst entries point to etch and not testing, otherwise you may end up with a broken system once etch goes stable. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Michael, Thank you for your positive response to my Attracting newbies post, which really started the fork from Booting Debian/testing fails. The original post from Terrence Brannon generated 59 responses including mine; whereas there have been so far 96 responses since my post. If nothing else, the numbers indicate the interest in the issues raised in the posts. Many of the posts contain good ideas, and I changed some of the ideas I expressed in my post as a result. For example, I used brain dead user (BDU) at first to refer to myself, but further in my text I used it to refer to others with a Linux competence level more or less comparable to mine. Someone suggested the terms novice, advanced beginner, etc., which are better, being non-pejorative. After almost four years using Linux, I still consider myself a novice. I have yet been able to answer any question posted by others to the Debian user list. I would like, in time, to contribute to the project which appears to be emerging from all these posts. (Does it have a name with suitable acronym yet? If not, how about LOIN -- Linux Orientation Initiative for Novices?) In view of my own experience, the best role for me would be as a tester of various documents drafted by others more knowledgeable about the subject. I notice that several people are researching what already exists or had existed by way of documentation for novices. This step is an important one, so that we do not reinvent the wheel. Equally important however is to arrive at a consensus on what exactly we are trying to achieve, and a profile of the person or persons to whom our efforts should be aiming at. Finally, I really appreciate your offer to help me specifically. Henceforth I will send to you copies of my panic posts to the list. The first one I expect to post today, called Etch X-server failure. Regards, Ken Heard Toronto, Canada Michael Pobega wrote: Ken Heard wrote: If GNU-Linux is going to make any serious inroads in the BDU market (BDU=brain dead user) which Microsoft dominates faute de mieux, there has to be documentation which the average BDU can understand. In the distros about which I have had personal experience (Red Hat 8 -- before RH abandoned the BDUs -- Debian Sarge and now Etch) such documentation seems to be an afterthought. [...] Ken Heard Toronto, Canada Very good writing Ken, I enjoyed reading it. I agree with you that to appeal to the BDU market the Debian community will have to band together and create easy to follow documentation, but the question is do we really want it? I know that bringing BDU people to Linux is an awesome idea, but the influx of BDUs would bring a stupidity to Debian, one that is often associated with distros like Ubuntu (Note: I have nothing against Ubuntu personally, it's just commonly known that most people frown upon Ubuntu users). In my experience Debian requires you know nothing about Linux to install it, but rather just how a computer works. As much as I'd love to have my mother use Debian over Windows, I'd rather give her a Fedora or Ubuntu disc before I'd ever give her a Debian installer. Although, I am interested in helping to bring more people to Debian. I know that everyone is a BDU at one time, down to both you and me. If you need any help e-mail me at this address with anything you need done. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Sat, Feb 10, 2007 at 12:59:01PM -0500, Ken Heard wrote: Many of the posts contain good ideas, and I changed some of the ideas I expressed in my post as a result. For example, I used brain dead user (BDU) at first to refer to myself, but further in my text I used it to refer to others with a Linux competence level more or less comparable to mine. Someone suggested the terms novice, advanced beginner, etc., which are better, being non-pejorative. That was me. I would like, in time, to contribute to the project which appears to be emerging from all these posts. (Does it have a name with suitable acronym yet? If not, how about LOIN -- Linux Orientation Initiative for Novices?) In view of my own experience, the best role for me would be as a tester of various documents drafted by others more knowledgeable about the subject. I'm thinking NoviceDoc. I tried to create an alioth project but kept getting spit out. I'm hoping that someone who knows about alioth can help. There's no help button or contact info on the alioth main page. Probably because DDs should know better; I'm a novice at alioth only having seen it for the first time last week. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: On Sat, Feb 10, 2007 at 12:59:01PM -0500, Ken Heard wrote: Many of the posts contain good ideas, and I changed some of the ideas I expressed in my post as a result. For example, I used brain dead user (BDU) at first to refer to myself, but further in my text I used it to refer to others with a Linux competence level more or less comparable to mine. Someone suggested the terms novice, advanced beginner, etc., which are better, being non-pejorative. That was me. I would like, in time, to contribute to the project which appears to be emerging from all these posts. (Does it have a name with suitable acronym yet? If not, how about LOIN -- Linux Orientation Initiative for Novices?) In view of my own experience, the best role for me would be as a tester of various documents drafted by others more knowledgeable about the subject. I'm thinking NoviceDoc. I tried to create an alioth project but kept getting spit out. I'm hoping that someone who knows about alioth can help. There's no help button or contact info on the alioth main page. Probably because DDs should know better; I'm a novice at alioth only having seen it for the first time last week. Doug. I'm one of the newbies so I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here, and I'm too tired this early in the morning to search the archives. Let me just say this in regard to documentation. There is more Debian documentation than any other Distro except for perhaps Gentoo. The problem with the Debian Documentation is that it is old. I don't know what exactly is being done to update it, but for example the Debian Reference was written when Sarge was in testing. Most of it still applies, but there are more options thanks to newer tools. For example surfing the web from the command line. I know of links, lynx, and w3m. Which should we tell people to use? Probably none of the above unless they have problems with X. In that case it's pretty good information to know. Regards, Joe (Sorry for the Double post, hit the wrong button again). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Thu 2007-02-08 09:54:28 -0500, Stephen wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 09:28:33PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: Snipped from my config.py: # 1: Use SMTP_SERVER to send mail. # 0: Call /usr/sbin/sendmail to send mail. SMTP_SEND = 1 SMTP_SERVER = jynn.tonix.org:25 OK so the sendmail '0' switch I assume, will use my system SMTP Exim ? Yes. But why not just try it out? You could've tested it in the time it took to send an email to the list. -- David Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Fri, Feb 09, 2007 at 09:51:30AM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: On Thu 2007-02-08 09:54:28 -0500, Stephen wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 09:28:33PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: Snipped from my config.py: # 1: Use SMTP_SERVER to send mail. # 0: Call /usr/sbin/sendmail to send mail. SMTP_SEND = 1 SMTP_SERVER = jynn.tonix.org:25 OK so the sendmail '0' switch I assume, will use my system SMTP Exim ? Yes. But why not just try it out? You could've tested it in the time it took to send an email to the list. I'm not that adventurous ? The wait is OK (see below). I haven't looked at the package since last weekend, when I couldn't find the man or info page, I decided to leave any playing until the weekend. Work usually occupies my attention throughout the week. Thanks for the response though ! -- Regards Stephen A. Encrypted/Signed e-mail accepted (GPG or PGP) -- Key ID: 978BA045 + Training is everything. The peach was once a bitter almond; cauliflower is nothing but cabbage with a college education. -- Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar + signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Thursday 08 February 2007 01:59, Celejar shared this with us all: --} On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 19:32:02 -0500 --} Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --} --} [snip] --} --} see how the turnout is; If anyone else is interested email me --} personally, and email it to the list also (Send two separate emails --} though, otherwise it won't pass my email filters. --} --} I'm interested. --} --} Celejar If I can assist, I am as well. Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 +++ We should come home from adventures, and perils, and discoveries every day with new experience and character. .Henry David Thoreau Linux Debian Etch -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
Daniel B. said... Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:09:30PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: ... Pdf can have internal links as well as a table of contents that one can click on. On the other hand, one needs X to read it and a postscript capable printer to print it (yes I know...). Please note another problem with PDF: The page size and layout are fixed. Not really a problem, more of a feature of the format; the idea being that a PDF renders the same regardless of the display platform (at least, in theory). In many situations, this is a very good thing. HTML adapts to the user's browser pane width (well, if the author doesn't break HTML's ability to do that). Again, to be pedantic, it's CSS that controls the layout, hence the author simply provides multiple CSS, which is what it's designed to do. The user can choose how much screen width to use for a browser, the browser can wrap regular text and tables to fit, and the user doesn't have to scroll horizontally to read the bulk of the page. And the user can also provide their own CSS too, should they wish. -- Cheers, Marc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Michael Pobega wrote: As for the newbie documentation, we should definitely get something together. Everyone who is interested email me at my personal emailing just to say Aie!. Drop me an AIM/MSN/Jabber contact so I can reach you beyond email if possible. I'm in. Ciao, Dave signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 09:28:33PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: On Wed 2007-02-07 15:57:07 -0500, Stephen wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 07:22:01PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: [ ...] Snipped from my config.py: # 1: Use SMTP_SERVER to send mail. # 0: Call /usr/sbin/sendmail to send mail. SMTP_SEND = 1 SMTP_SERVER = jynn.tonix.org:25 OK so the sendmail '0' switch I assume, will use my system SMTP Exim ? There is no way in hell, I would have guessed it to be a manpage under r2e, when the application itself is called rss2email. Thanks for filling me in. ;) Man pages are usually named the same as the command that is run. rss2email is the package, r2e is the command. News to me -- I've always used the package or application name. As an aside, I thought that new applications for Linux were encouraged to use Info for documentation ... 'dpkg -L rss2email' will list the files that the package installed. HTH It does indeed, David. I've been educated once more, by someone knowledgeable. :) -- Regards Stephen A. Encrypted/Signed e-mail accepted (GPG or PGP) -- Key ID: 978BA045 + You have been in Afghanistan, I perceive. -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study in Scarlet + signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies
On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 09:27:40AM -, marc wrote: Daniel B. said... Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:09:30PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: ... Pdf can have internal links as well as a table of contents that one can click on. On the other hand, one needs X to read it and a postscript capable printer to print it (yes I know...). Please note another problem with PDF: The page size and layout are fixed. Not really a problem, more of a feature of the format; the idea being that a PDF renders the same regardless of the display platform (at least, in theory). In many situations, this is a very good thing. HTML adapts to the user's browser pane width (well, if the author doesn't break HTML's ability to do that). Again, to be pedantic, it's CSS that controls the layout, hence the author simply provides multiple CSS, which is what it's designed to do. Just to be historical, HTML text adapted to the user's browser long before CSS had even been invented. The user can choose how much screen width to use for a browser, the browser can wrap regular text and tables to fit, and the user doesn't have to scroll horizontally to read the bulk of the page. And the user can also provide their own CSS too, should they wish. -- Cheers, Marc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 09:54:28AM -0500, Stephen wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 09:28:33PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: On Wed 2007-02-07 15:57:07 -0500, Stephen wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 07:22:01PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: [ ...] Snipped from my config.py: # 1: Use SMTP_SERVER to send mail. # 0: Call /usr/sbin/sendmail to send mail. SMTP_SEND = 1 SMTP_SERVER = jynn.tonix.org:25 OK so the sendmail '0' switch I assume, will use my system SMTP Exim ? There is no way in hell, I would have guessed it to be a manpage under r2e, when the application itself is called rss2email. Thanks for filling me in. ;) Man pages are usually named the same as the command that is run. rss2email is the package, r2e is the command. News to me -- I've always used the package or application name. As an aside, I thought that new applications for Linux were encouraged to use Info for documentation ... Info is what the FSF is pushing. However, there's a dedicated community of info-haters. Not that there are international standards about how to do the things info was once used for (HTML and all that) there seems little point in sticking to it. 'dpkg -L rss2email' will list the files that the package installed. HTH It does indeed, David. I've been educated once more, by someone knowledgeable. :) -- Regards Stephen A. Encrypted/Signed e-mail accepted (GPG or PGP) -- Key ID: 978BA045 + You have been in Afghanistan, I perceive. -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study in Scarlet + -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 09:03:01PM -0500 or thereabouts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: News to me -- I've always used the package or application name. As an aside, I thought that new applications for Linux were encouraged to use Info for documentation ... Info is what the FSF is pushing. However, there's a dedicated community of info-haters. Not that there are international standards about how to do the things info was once used for (HTML and all that) there seems little point in sticking to it. OIC I keep getting confused on FSF and GNU priorities. I probably (as you suggest) got that from someone advocating for FSF and didn't understand the distinction at the time. -- Regards Stephen A. Encrypted/Signed e-mail accepted (GPG or PGP) -- Key ID: 978BA045 + Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. -- Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar + signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:09:30 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: So if we go with the wiki, we (or at least I) have to learn a new markup language and resign ourselves that the work can't be used in any other work. If we go with another format, it needs a home and we (or at least I) have to learn a new markup language. Unless, of course we don't need html and can do with pdf, ps, and plain text. If so, does anyone other than me use Lout? The berlios.de wiki is *very* easy to edit. Unfortunately not very stable :( I wonder if the frustration over all this lack of a documentation infrastructure is a good reason why the documentation isn't as easy to find as we seem to think it should be? Doug. The way I see it all that we'll need is HTML, PDF, and plain text. Plain text is the easiest to read through a terminal window, and it should be how we write the original documentation. Once we finish a full plain text version we can worry about converting it to other formats. AFAIK it's easy to transform a markup language in plain text. The other way around ... We will probably have to work in some format that can be easily converted to plain text, html, pdf. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 23:11:54 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you mean that you have all of your mailboxes synced with one another? I'd love to be able to do that with Mutt and Icedove if possible. Any chance you have a URL to a walkthrough/HowTo on how to do something like that? No, no, no. ONE mail folder tree shared by *all* MUAs. That is the beauty of the IMAP protocol. And mail delivered by a cron job. That's pretty cool. I wish I had the patience to do something like that, but I really don't. Maybe when I get unlazy I'll get an IMAP going between Mutt and Icedove, if that's even possible. Do you have any links to some of the documentation you used? I can't find good documentation on doing something like this anywhere online. I am planing to write something similar, but without the IMAP bit (which should be trivial to implement in my setup). I use getmail/maildrop to deliver to Maildir format and then can use either Sylpheed-Claws or mutt(ng) to read. Sending with postfix via gmail as smarthost. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On 06 Feb 2007, Michael Pobega wrote: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:28:44PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: I always thought you were supposed to respond to messages as Reply All, but I'll get out of that habit. Sorry about that. Most decent mail programs have a list reply button or function that correctly identifies the mailing list and sends the reply to only the list. Regards, -Roberto Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? (I have Icedove/Thunderbird set to filter out all mail with @lists.debian.org to my Debian mailing list folder, and then from there automatically sort which mailing list it's from.) mutt? Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, on-line books and sceptical articles) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On 06 Feb 2007, Freddy Freeloader wrote: [snip] I also sort of feel the same as some others have expressed on this thread about Ubuntu leaving them cold. It does me too. I've tried it a couple of times and I've always been left feeling that the OS was dumbed down. Sort of like the feel I get from Windows. [snip] This had always been my impression too, but now that I've been forced to use it, because Debian refused to make sound work on my mew Thinkpad, my opinion has changed somewhat. As regards its appearance, you can configure it as you like, and I've got it to look pretty much the same as Debian for me. In fact, I would hardly know that I was using Ubuntu rather than native Debian, except for the fact that it installed Gnome at the outset and I've left it alone, although I'm back using my favourite Icewm as window manager. And I'm impressed by the comprehensive nature of documentation available on the Net. A quick search on Google usually turns up step-by-step instructions for whatever modifications you want to make and for problems encountered. Information exists for Debian too, of course, but it's often harder to find. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, on-line books and sceptical articles) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Hello Stephen. Stephen, 07.02.2007 03:45: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:43:32PM +0100 or thereabouts, Mathias Brodala wrote: Michael Pobega, 06.02.2007 22:35: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? You don???t need another client since Thunderbird/Icedove has an extension[0] which enables you to reply to list only. I???m using it for a long time now. Don???t worry about the patch mentioned on the site, it???s already in Debian???s Thunderbird/Icedove package[1]. Speaking of which, I noticed on Bugzilla last week, that someone had made the 'reply to list extension' for T-Bird that doesn't require the use of other extensions ie Meneghy (sp?). Since I had Enigmail installed anyway, I had all I need for using this extension. About time. The old extension of which you speak, required other extensions to be installed in order to work. http://cweiske.de/misc_extensions.htm#replyToList Sounds not that promising: Please keep in mind that this whole thing is a hack - it uses some timeouts to change the address, and so it takes 1.5 seconds after the reply window is opened until the address is changed and the cursor/focus is back to the text editor. I prefer my variant without additional hacks. The only thing I use Thunderbird for these days is reading RSS feeds, which it's quite good at. I do that within Opera. If it just would be able to organize feeds into subdirectories, it would be perfect. Regards, Mathias -- debian/rules signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies
Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:09:30 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: So if we go with the wiki, we (or at least I) have to learn a new markup language and resign ourselves that the work can't be used in any other work. If we go with another format, it needs a home and we (or at least I) have to learn a new markup language. Unless, of course we don't need html and can do with pdf, ps, and plain text. If so, does anyone other than me use Lout? The berlios.de wiki is *very* easy to edit. Unfortunately not very stable :( The wiki and the MediaWiki software are stable enough - it is the Berlios server that is not always available. Not every Free software organisation will host a wiki sucessfully - eg SourceForge has a better uptime but permissions will not allow user contributions, thus defeating the whole point of a wiki. Also, the latest version of MediaWiki requires PHP5 - again, not always provided. Still, there are quite a few hosting services for Free software projects. MediaWiki is the software behind Wikipedia and is built with Free documentation in mind. It is mature, well-maintained and continuing to be developed so it may be a good choice in the long run. In my earlier post http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/02/msg01169.html I explained the DocBook/CVS alternative - great for HTML, PDF and plain text, but cumbersome. You you may be able to use utilities to convert an HTML wiki page to other formats eg Htmldoc, though Htmldoc in Etch seems to have problems related to CSS. -- Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 05:04:31PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: Okay, let's get back on topic. So far I have five other people who are interested in working on this documentation, I'm hoping to get a few more writers than editors before we begin (So far I believe 4/5 people who signed up want to be editors and not writers, which makes my job a lot more painful). Count me in, if you haven't already. I can write, but the collaborative writing model I'd like to try is to pass the document(s) from hand to hand, rewriting (not just editing) it each time until it stabilises. We also need people to collect the information that needs to be organised into documents. And for a licence, we could at least consider just placing it in the public domain. Then anyone can use it. Except, of course, when we incorporate text that can't be. As for GPL, I've never figured out how the linking rules apply to documentation. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Documentation (Re: Attracting newbies)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 06 February 2007 23:15, Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: HTML is nice for viewing over the internet, and whenever possible I prefer HTML over PDF. Especially since you can tie URLs in HTML to other points on the page, so that you can link someone back and forth throughout a single page quickly and easily. HTML is far more flexible than PDF in terms of page width. PDF being fixed page width, that is. Makes reading PDF documents very heavy work on my Zaurus. Also, Lynx works for HTML in console/terminal mode, while a PDF is a complete loss without a GUI. So indeed, if documentation is to be written, HTML beats PDF. If the documentation is in a directory, such as /usr/share/doc/foo, there's no worry about including graphics since they can simply be included in the same directory. Nay-sayers are going to ask, Who doesn't have a GUI? It's difficult to counter that without sounding like an a**hole, but seriously, isn't that why there is more than one distribution? Curt- - -- September 11th, 2001 The proudest day for gun control and central planning advocates in American history -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBRcnIBS9Y35yItIgBAQLwaQf/TnpYdFb3MW3I9AF3pX8zMOh68KVFBmmp vEEHzMbVaAaJX1erBCFICD6q8Zp7hBOUj3ClZt+26xTwHjsMsjDmNi7vT9OzJcsP Rd5/EN5DhRtAVqlWd5AP/v1OEHIRNOQUEl7fulaYRRCpg6YPSmrp63jjccFTyYG5 GYD4+zx/TdkeVcsxP7jL7l/kg6zXISX+oTYiAXR9D01zBELBBfvjR7G76LAgY+Y4 rYm6HYd1qulc9kfcEAljCxL2yy7Yj7oOopg0r3kDywXnkh3s98Gr9vPbEnIX6q3S 5JWWT/ogbt1NL7AU8F0w5albwlm2VNoCYkgOJNOIGbUua/uzFoVtVQ== =0S87 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/07 02:39, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 23:11:54 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] I am planing to write something similar, but without the IMAP bit (which should be trivial to implement in my setup). I use getmail/maildrop to deliver to Maildir format and then can use either Sylpheed-Claws or mutt(ng) to read. Sending with postfix via gmail as smarthost. Out of curiosity, why don't you implement IMAP? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFydp+S9HxQb37XmcRAgCRAJ9LiGX0Szt0oMf5ikE5J5ieWMEvxACgrRG4 V2QfyyineQKCMSm2dO5h/DY= =sR3I -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
Thanks Julian, I've sent this to the list. FYI, we normally bottom post on the debian lists. Doug. On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 05:38:33PM +1000, Julian De Marchi wrote: Hi Doug, I like your idea. Documentation is so important. I can donate some webspace for your cause and if need a subdomain of my domain. Let me know how I can help you. Julian JD Computer Hosting -Original Message- From: Douglas Allan Tutty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 7 February 2007 14:30 To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Attracting newbies On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:12:01PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On 02/06/07 21:56, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: That I'm the only one left on the planet with a printer that right now can't print ps even with gs-esp. Its a mechanical problem with the printer. Its 26 years old. Geez, what is it? A C.Itoh Gorilla Banana? A Diablo 630? An LA50? You know the marketing picture for the origional IBM PC, with the big clunky monitor, the PC box, and the printer? That's it. An IBM Personal Computer Graphics Printer. It _will_ print postscript (it thinks its an ML-370 I think), but the little twiddle knob that turns the ribbon is broke. To print, I have to twiddle the knob on the ribbon. Its bad enough for plain text that prints one line per second (one page per minute), but graphis print at about 20 minutes per page. Gives one blisters on the thumb and finger involved. I just read the policy manual and other than packages _must_ provide a man page, debian is moving towards all documentation being in html. That's a good thing. Hypertext is too useful. And all the Debian html docs are console-friendly. Too many of the DDs are CLI fans to be otherwise. And most upstream docs are text-heavy also. I agree. So if we want html that we can package up outside of a wiki we need a home for it. And I need to learn html or something. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 12:09:33PM +0100 or thereabouts, Mathias Brodala wrote: Hello Stephen. Stephen, 07.02.2007 03:45: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:43:32PM +0100 or thereabouts, Mathias Brodala wrote: Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? You don???t need another client since Thunderbird/Icedove has an extension[0] which enables you to reply to list only. I???m using it for a long time now. Don???t worry about the patch mentioned on the site, it???s already in Debian???s Thunderbird/Icedove package[1]. Speaking of which, I noticed on Bugzilla last week, that someone had made the 'reply to list extension' for T-Bird that doesn't require the use of other extensions ie Meneghy (sp?). Since I had Enigmail installed anyway, I had all I need for using this extension. ? It requires more than Enigmail. About time. The old extension of which you speak, required other extensions to be installed in order to work. http://cweiske.de/misc_extensions.htm#replyToList Sounds not that promising: Why is that ? I don't think you understood what the URL above says. I prefer my variant without additional hacks. I think something is missing during translation here. The extension I recommended *doesn't* require any additional hacks -- Whereas the one you're using does. I recommended the newer one, simply because most people didn't like the one you're using, as it needed other extensions installed to work. All you have to do is read the comments on Bugzilla to understand what I'm talking about. In my mind an extension that requires other extensions to work, isn't a well written extension. shrug For that reason alone, I would recommend that you refer people to the new one. The only thing I use Thunderbird for these days is reading RSS feeds, which it's quite good at. I do that within Opera. If it just would be able to organize feeds into subdirectories, it would be perfect. Incidentally if you're already using T-Bird for e-mail, why wouldn't you use it to read RSS? seems strange that a browser would be used. XML/RSS feeds are better in my opinion when read like e-mail. Especially with the frequency that most RSS feeds are updated. To each their own I guess. -- Regards Stephen A. Encrypted/Signed e-mail accepted (GPG or PGP) -- Key ID: 978BA045 + Wagner's music is better than it sounds. -- Mark Twain + signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 19:32:02 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] see how the turnout is; If anyone else is interested email me personally, and email it to the list also (Send two separate emails though, otherwise it won't pass my email filters. I'm interested. Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Hello Stephen. Stephen, 07.02.2007 15:21: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 12:09:33PM +0100 or thereabouts, Mathias Brodala wrote: Stephen, 07.02.2007 03:45: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:43:32PM +0100 or thereabouts, Mathias Brodala wrote: Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? You don???t need another client since Thunderbird/Icedove has an extension[0] which enables you to reply to list only. I???m using it for a long time now. Don???t worry about the patch mentioned on the site, it???s already in Debian???s Thunderbird/Icedove package[1]. Speaking of which, I noticed on Bugzilla last week, that someone had made the 'reply to list extension' for T-Bird that doesn't require the use of other extensions ie Meneghy (sp?). Since I had Enigmail installed anyway, I had all I need for using this extension. ? It requires more than Enigmail. No, Enigmail is one of the extension which enables this extension. (Although I never tried using it without Enigmail. As I said, I had this one installed much earlier.) About time. The old extension of which you speak, required other extensions to be installed in order to work. http://cweiske.de/misc_extensions.htm#replyToList Sounds not that promising: Why is that ? I don't think you understood what the URL above says. I did, but I maybe did put it in confusing words. I prefer my variant without additional hacks. I think something is missing during translation here. The extension I recommended *doesn't* require any additional hacks No, it *is* one. -- Whereas the one you're using does. Absolutely right. (As I see it now and you suggested: misunderstanding.) I recommended the newer one, simply because most people didn't like the one you're using, as it needed other extensions installed to work. All you have to do is read the comments on Bugzilla to understand what I'm talking about. Believe me, I read them. All of them. For that reason alone, I would recommend that you refer people to the new one. I’ll give both. Since Thunderbird/Icedove users on Debian will have the patch included anyway, the might be interested in the old extension. The only thing I use Thunderbird for these days is reading RSS feeds, which it's quite good at. I do that within Opera. If it just would be able to organize feeds into subdirectories, it would be perfect. Incidentally if you're already using T-Bird for e-mail, why wouldn't you use it to read RSS? I did use Opera much more earlier than Thunderbird. In the beginning I was satisfied with Webmail (GMX) but after some time I tried Thunderbird and it was rather nice. So today I do all my email stuff with it. seems strange that a browser would be used. XML/RSS feeds are better in my opinion when read like e-mail. Well, Opera displays them like emails. Its newsfeed functionality is part of its mail module M2. Especially with the frequency that most RSS feeds are updated. Yep, I check them every 3 hours. Works rather good if only I hadn’t so much of them. The check is pretty consuming … To each their own I guess. It’s freedom of choice after all. Regards, Mathias -- debian/rules signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies
Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: RE: how to write the documentation, where to put it. It seems that wget won't crawl through a wiki, it will just grab the one page. Its no different than saving the page with the browser. Wget crawls my wiki site just fine. Are you using the right wget options? Does the wiki do something unusual with links (or disable crawling with /robots.txt)? Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:18:32 + Chris Lale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The wiki and the MediaWiki software are stable enough - it is the Berlios server that is not always available. Not every Free software That's what I meant. organisation will host a wiki sucessfully - eg SourceForge has a better uptime but permissions will not allow user contributions, thus defeating the whole point of a wiki. Also, the latest version of MediaWiki requires PHP5 - again, not always provided. Still, there are quite a few hosting services for Free software projects. MediaWiki is the software behind Wikipedia and is built with Free documentation in mind. It is mature, well-maintained and continuing to be developed so it may be a good choice in the long run. If only wiki.d.o would use it. And also the color scheme of wiki.d.o is ... maybe it's just me, but I don't like it at all. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 05:08:06PM +0100 or thereabouts, Mathias Brodala wrote: Hello Stephen. Stephen, 07.02.2007 15:21: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 12:09:33PM +0100 or thereabouts, Mathias Brodala wrote: Stephen, 07.02.2007 03:45: ? It requires more than Enigmail. No, Enigmail is one of the extension which enables this extension. (Although I never tried using it without Enigmail. As I said, I had this one installed much earlier.) I suggest you read Bugzilla and read the history of the extension you're using. I recall at the time it was first introduced that one needed at least two extensions and a 'patched' version of T-Bird. I have been following this on Bugzilla since the inception of the bug filed against T-Bird. So trust me I know this. ;) The extension I recommend requires neither of the two qualifications. So it's a better extension for people that are using a vanilla T-Bird, and wish to keep it that way. About time. The old extension of which you speak, required other extensions to be installed in order to work. http://cweiske.de/misc_extensions.htm#replyToList Sounds not that promising: Why is that ? I don't think you understood what the URL above says. I did, but I maybe did put it in confusing words. I prefer my variant without additional hacks. I think something is missing during translation here. The extension I recommended *doesn't* require any additional hacks No, it *is* one. To be precise, the extension that is newer of the Reply to List extensions, requires NO hacks. Yours does and was never considered to be a well written extension. Again to get the sense of this you might want to read the entire discussion on Bugzilla. -- Whereas the one you're using does. Absolutely right. (As I see it now and you suggested: misunderstanding.) I recommended the newer one, simply because most people didn't like the one you're using, as it needed other extensions installed to work. All you have to do is read the comments on Bugzilla to understand what I'm talking about. Believe me, I read them. All of them. For that reason alone, I would recommend that you refer people to the new one. I’ll give both. Since Thunderbird/Icedove users on Debian will have the patch included anyway, the might be interested in the old extension. If you're using any Mozilla derivative with Debian, you can't do better than using the upstream releases in my opinion. Debian tends NOT to have the latest of those applications. The only thing I use Thunderbird for these days is reading RSS feeds, which it's quite good at. I do that within Opera. If it just would be able to organize feeds into subdirectories, it would be perfect. Incidentally if you're already using T-Bird for e-mail, why wouldn't you use it to read RSS? I did use Opera much more earlier than Thunderbird. In the beginning I was satisfied with Webmail (GMX) but after some time I tried Thunderbird and it was rather nice. So today I do all my email stuff with it. seems strange that a browser would be used. XML/RSS feeds are better in my opinion when read like e-mail. Well, Opera displays them like emails. Its newsfeed functionality is part of its mail module M2. Yeah well Opera does e-mail to. So why use T-Bird at all then? Just asking, but it does seem little redundant. So you're using two applications when you could use just one. OK like I said, whatever floats yer boat. ;) Especially with the frequency that most RSS feeds are updated. Yep, I check them every 3 hours. Works rather good if only I hadn’t so much of them. The check is pretty consuming … Of course since you're using T-Bird for e-mail, it would check the RSS feeds at the same time it polls for e-mail. sigh I really wish I could use mutt though. ;) For example I use CraigsList for employment opportunities, and it conveniently gives me the option of reading these opportunities via RSS. I can't imagine using a browser for that, after having using T-Bird pull in new opportunities via RSS every 10 minutes. It grows on you after awhile. To each their own I guess. It’s freedom of choice after all. Indeed. -- Regards Stephen A. Encrypted/Signed e-mail accepted (GPG or PGP) -- Key ID: 978BA045 + AWAKE! FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE! FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE! AWAKE! -- J. R. R. Tolkien + signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:56:14 -0600 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/07 02:39, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 23:11:54 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] I am planing to write something similar, but without the IMAP bit (which should be trivial to implement in my setup). I use getmail/maildrop to deliver to Maildir format and then can use either Sylpheed-Claws or mutt(ng) to read. Sending with postfix via gmail as smarthost. Out of curiosity, why don't you implement IMAP? Because at the moment it's all on the same computer. I am thinking to go for IMAP as soon as I get my firewall back on line (hdd is down), though this would mean I don't have my mails on my laptop. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Hello Stephen. Stephen, 07.02.2007 17:33: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 05:08:06PM +0100 or thereabouts, Mathias Brodala wrote: Stephen, 07.02.2007 15:21: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 12:09:33PM +0100 or thereabouts, Mathias Brodala wrote: Stephen, 07.02.2007 03:45: ? It requires more than Enigmail. No, Enigmail is one of the extension which enables this extension. (Although I never tried using it without Enigmail. As I said, I had this one installed much earlier.) I suggest you read Bugzilla and read the history of the extension you're using. As I said, I already did. And I’m the prove that Patch+Enigmail+Extension is enough to get it working. I have some other extensions, of course, but none of them is related to the list reply extension I recall at the time it was first introduced that one needed at least two extensions and a 'patched' version of T-Bird. Maybe the first fact has improved since then? The extension I recommend requires neither of the two qualifications. So it's a better extension for people that are using a vanilla T-Bird, and wish to keep it that way. Yes, I understand that. I might try it on my own on a vanilla Thunderbird if I’m using one on another machine. I want to know about what I recommend. -- Whereas the one you're using does. Absolutely right. (As I see it now and you suggested: misunderstanding.) I recommended the newer one, simply because most people didn't like the one you're using, as it needed other extensions installed to work. All you have to do is read the comments on Bugzilla to understand what I'm talking about. Believe me, I read them. All of them. For that reason alone, I would recommend that you refer people to the new one. I’ll give both. Since Thunderbird/Icedove users on Debian will have the patch included anyway, the might be interested in the old extension. If you're using any Mozilla derivative with Debian, you can't do better than using the upstream releases in my opinion. Debian tends NOT to have the latest of those applications. No big deal for me since the new releases don’t offer any remarkable features. (I still don’t understand the jump to 1.5 and 2.0. We should be at version 1.2 or something like that now. Marketing everywhere …) The only thing I use Thunderbird for these days is reading RSS feeds, which it's quite good at. I do that within Opera. If it just would be able to organize feeds into subdirectories, it would be perfect. Incidentally if you're already using T-Bird for e-mail, why wouldn't you use it to read RSS? I did use Opera much more earlier than Thunderbird. In the beginning I was satisfied with Webmail (GMX) but after some time I tried Thunderbird and it was rather nice. So today I do all my email stuff with it. seems strange that a browser would be used. XML/RSS feeds are better in my opinion when read like e-mail. Well, Opera displays them like emails. Its newsfeed functionality is part of its mail module M2. Yeah well Opera does e-mail to. So why use T-Bird at all then? I never really bothered using M2 for mail since it has that strange filter thingie instead of folders. But in fact, I don’t really remember why. It just happened as it did. Just asking, but it does seem little redundant. So you're using two applications when you could use just one. Yes, you are probably right. At least both of them have something in common: they don’t really integrate themselves into my GTK desktop. Opera obviously because of its Qt interface and Thunderbird because it only fakes GTK. OK like I said, whatever floats yer boat. ;) Aye. Especially with the frequency that most RSS feeds are updated. Yep, I check them every 3 hours. Works rather good if only I hadn’t so much of them. The check is pretty consuming … Of course since you're using T-Bird for e-mail, it would check the RSS feeds at the same time it polls for e-mail. sigh I really wish I could use mutt though. ;) For example I use CraigsList for employment opportunities, and it conveniently gives me the option of reading these opportunities via RSS. I can't imagine using a browser for that, after having using T-Bird pull in new opportunities via RSS every 10 minutes. It grows on you after awhile. Same for me. To each their own I guess. It’s freedom of choice after all. Indeed. I guess we should end this here since this is just more off-topic to the off-topic. Regards, Mathias -- debian/rules signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies
Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 10:09:30PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: ... Pdf can have internal links as well as a table of contents that one can click on. On the other hand, one needs X to read it and a postscript capable printer to print it (yes I know...). Please note another problem with PDF: The page size and layout are fixed. HTML adapts to the user's browser pane width (well, if the author doesn't break HTML's ability to do that). The user can choose how much screen width to use for a browser, the browser can wrap regular text and tables to fit, and the user doesn't have to scroll horizontally to read the bulk of the page. With PDF, the text is wrapped at a fixed width (once you pick a magnification to make the text readable, the text columns and the overall page size are fixed). The user has to scroll horizontally more frequently (possibly even once per line of text depending on font size and page width). PDF is good for it's sleekness really, ... Are you thinking of PDF itself or laid-out documents you've seen in PDF? Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed 2007-02-07 11:33:24 -0500, Stephen wrote: Of course since you're using T-Bird for e-mail, it would check the RSS feeds at the same time it polls for e-mail. sigh I really wish I could use mutt though. ;) For the few RSS feeds that I need to read I use 'rss2email'. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ apt-cache show rss2email [snip] Description: receive RSS feeds by email rss2email is a simple program which you can run in your crontab. It watches RSS (or Atom) feeds and sends you a nicely formatted email message for each new item. -- David Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/07 10:36, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:56:14 -0600 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/07 02:39, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 23:11:54 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] I am planing to write something similar, but without the IMAP bit (which should be trivial to implement in my setup). I use getmail/maildrop to deliver to Maildir format and then can use either Sylpheed-Claws or mutt(ng) to read. Sending with postfix via gmail as smarthost. Out of curiosity, why don't you implement IMAP? Because at the moment it's all on the same computer. I am thinking to go for IMAP as soon as I get my firewall back on line (hdd is down), Ah, a security issue. though this would mean I don't have my mails on my laptop. Sure it would. That's the whole point of IMAP: Internet Mail ACCESS Protocol. Run courier-imap-ssl on your PC and then connect to it from your laptop. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFygbKS9HxQb37XmcRAr8yAKCPjk8tR6hz9olFMQDUbjq1rTqFxACfezS/ +y+HVbNAPT2jKihTGNQdGBw= =+9X+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:05:14 -0600 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of curiosity, why don't you implement IMAP? Because at the moment it's all on the same computer. I am thinking to go for IMAP as soon as I get my firewall back on line (hdd is down), Ah, a security issue. No, it's just that I don't see the reason of IMAP on the same computer. If I were to transform my firewall machine in a mailserver then IMAP would be the best choice to access it. though this would mean I don't have my mails on my laptop. Sure it would. That's the whole point of IMAP: Internet Mail ACCESS Protocol. On line yes, but offline... and yes, I know I can download the mail also on the laptop, but that would beat the whole purpose of having a centralised mailstore. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 05:01:00PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: On Wed 2007-02-07 11:33:24 -0500, Stephen wrote: Of course since you're using T-Bird for e-mail, it would check the RSS feeds at the same time it polls for e-mail. sigh I really wish I could use mutt though. ;) For the few RSS feeds that I need to read I use 'rss2email'. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ apt-cache show rss2email [snip] Description: receive RSS feeds by email rss2email is a simple program which you can run in your crontab. It watches RSS (or Atom) feeds and sends you a nicely formatted email message for each new item. Hey David: Looks great -- Without looking at the package, just a couple quick questions; Does it do mbox format and are URLs included ? Thanks for the heads-up. -- Regards Stephen A. Encrypted/Signed e-mail accepted (GPG or PGP) -- Key ID: 978BA045 + Consider well the proportions of things. It is better to be a young June-bug than an old bird of paradise. -- Mark Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar + signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 11:32:50AM -0500, Daniel Barclay wrote: Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: RE: how to write the documentation, where to put it. It seems that wget won't crawl through a wiki, it will just grab the one page. Its no different than saving the page with the browser. Wget crawls my wiki site just fine. Are you using the right wget options? Does the wiki do something unusual with links (or disable crawling with /robots.txt)? I tried last night with various wget options (I forget what all I tried). I tried the debian wiki. What options do you use and can you fetch from both/either wiki.d.o and newbiedoc? Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/07 11:31, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 11:05:14 -0600 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of curiosity, why don't you implement IMAP? Because at the moment it's all on the same computer. I am thinking to go for IMAP as soon as I get my firewall back on line (hdd is down), Ah, a security issue. No, it's just that I don't see the reason of IMAP on the same computer. To allow access to the central mail store from many locations. If I were to transform my firewall machine in a mailserver then IMAP would be the best choice to access it. That's the *second worst* place to put it. though this would mean I don't have my mails on my laptop. Sure it would. That's the whole point of IMAP: Internet Mail ACCESS Protocol. On line yes, but offline... and yes, I know I can download the mail also on the laptop, but that would beat the whole purpose of having a centralised mailstore. That's just a cache, though. It's not the canonical version of your email. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFyhh/S9HxQb37XmcRAph2AJ9F1e03rAszfx0gdqwK9LjvUoOqygCaAxJr owdawG4lREAP3QScx1XZprQ= =VL/3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed 2007-02-07 12:47:55 -0500, Stephen wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 05:01:00PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: For the few RSS feeds that I need to read I use 'rss2email'. Looks great -- Without looking at the package, just a couple quick questions; Does it do mbox format and are URLs included ? It delivers either via smtp or /usr/sbin/sendmail, not directly to a mail store. To add a feed you do 'r2e add http://some.domain/rss-feed.rss' from the command line. To list your feeds do 'r2e list'. In cron you need just '/usr/bin/r2e run'. -- David Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
Chris Lale wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:09:30 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: So if we go with the wiki, we (or at least I) have to learn a new markup language and resign ourselves that the work can't be used in any other work. If we go with another format, it needs a home and we (or at least I) have to learn a new markup language. Unless, of course we don't need html and can do with pdf, ps, and plain text. If so, does anyone other than me use Lout? The berlios.de wiki is *very* easy to edit. Unfortunately not very stable :( The wiki and the MediaWiki software are stable enough - it is the Berlios server that is not always available. Not every Free software organisation will host a wiki sucessfully - eg SourceForge has a better uptime but permissions will not allow user contributions, thus defeating the whole point of a wiki. Also, the latest version of MediaWiki requires PHP5 - again, not always provided. Still, there are quite a few hosting services for Free software projects. MediaWiki is the software behind Wikipedia and is built with Free documentation in mind. It is mature, well-maintained and continuing to be developed so it may be a good choice in the long run. In my earlier post http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/02/msg01169.html I explained the DocBook/CVS alternative - great for HTML, PDF and plain text, but cumbersome. You you may be able to use utilities to convert an HTML wiki page to other formats eg Htmldoc, though Htmldoc in Etch seems to have problems related to CSS. I'm just jumping in to this thread after reading the last few posts in this thread. If you need the latest wiki (with PHP5), I can offer to host it and connection is pretty reliable too. My friend who offers the hosting can help as he himself does some OSS development. Just send me a ping if needed. Regards, /KS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 01:39:31PM -0500, KS wrote: I'm just jumping in to this thread after reading the last few posts in this thread. If you need the latest wiki (with PHP5), I can offer to host it and connection is pretty reliable too. My friend who offers the hosting can help as he himself does some OSS development. Just send me a ping if needed. Thank KS FYI, we're moving this discussion over to debian-doc to get out of users' hair. Its a very low volume list so you can subscribe there without getting bogged down. Thank you for the offer. I've copied this reply there to add it to the mix. It has also been suggested that we create a project under alioth.debian.org and that would take care of our hosting needs. However, even if we go this rout, actual skill is always appreciated. I can write but I've never posted to a wiki, written docbook, or created a web page. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 06:26:44PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: On Wed 2007-02-07 12:47:55 -0500, Stephen wrote: [ ...] Does it do mbox format and are URLs included ? It delivers either via smtp or /usr/sbin/sendmail, not directly to a mail store. Hm OK Then I use say procmail to well process it then, I assume to my mbox? I just grabbed it, the documentation is non existent. :( To add a feed you do 'r2e add http://some.domain/rss-feed.rss' from the command line. To list your feeds do 'r2e list'. In cron you need just '/usr/bin/r2e run'. I'll play around with it, and see how it works. Thanks again ! -- Regards Stephen A. Encrypted/Signed e-mail accepted (GPG or PGP) -- Key ID: 978BA045 + This was the most unkindest cut of all. -- William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar + signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 11:50:23PM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: Or if you feel brave, mutt-ng from experimental. I you set up your mail to use Maildir than you can switch mail clients with problems, or even without? use many at the same time. Regards, Andrei -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:51:02 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 11:50:23PM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: Or if you feel brave, mutt-ng from experimental. I you set up your mail to use Maildir than you can switch mail clients with problems, or even without? :)) of course Thanks for spotting that, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed 2007-02-07 13:57:42 -0500, Stephen wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 06:26:44PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: On Wed 2007-02-07 12:47:55 -0500, Stephen wrote: [ ...] Does it do mbox format and are URLs included ? It delivers either via smtp or /usr/sbin/sendmail, not directly to a mail store. Hm OK Then I use say procmail to well process it then, I assume to my mbox? That's what I do, into its own folder. I just grabbed it, the documentation is non existent. :( Ehh? For such a simple program I think it's well documented. 'man r2e' and the self documented config file ~/.rss2email/config.py should tell you all you need to know. Feel free to email me off list if you do get stuck though . . . -- David Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 12:20:47PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On 02/07/07 11:31, Andrei Popescu wrote: If I were to transform my firewall machine in a mailserver then IMAP would be the best choice to access it. That's the *second worst* place to put it. please enlighten. I am in the process of re-examining my home lan. My new mobo on the server includes to nic's so I am thinking of using my server as the firewall as well... you seem, from the above, to think this is a bad idea. I don't doubt that it is... A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 07:22:01PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote:
On Wed 2007-02-07 13:57:42 -0500, Stephen wrote:
{ ...} using fetchmail/procmail to get RSS.
That's what I do, into its own folder.
I just grabbed it, the documentation is non existent. :(
Ehh? For such a simple program I think it's well documented. 'man r2e'
and the self documented config file ~/.rss2email/config.py should
tell you all you need to know.
Yeah, I started reading the config.py file and it is commented, although
I don't understand why it doesn't use my system SMTP, or is that a
misunderstanding on my part ? I'm a little confused because there is
syntax there for SMTP and Auth_SMTP. OK I'll read the manpage ...
There is no way in hell, I would have guessed it to be a manpage under
r2e, when the application itself is called rss2email. Thanks for
filling me in. ;)
Feel free to email me off list if you do get stuck though . . .
Thanks, I'll take it for a spin.
--
Regards
Stephen A.
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Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Wed 2007-02-07 15:57:07 -0500, Stephen wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 07:22:01PM + or thereabouts, David Hart wrote: Ehh? For such a simple program I think it's well documented. 'man r2e' and the self documented config file ~/.rss2email/config.py should tell you all you need to know. Yeah, I started reading the config.py file and it is commented, although I don't understand why it doesn't use my system SMTP, or is that a misunderstanding on my part ? I'm a little confused because there is syntax there for SMTP and Auth_SMTP. OK I'll read the manpage ... Snipped from my config.py: # 1: Use SMTP_SERVER to send mail. # 0: Call /usr/sbin/sendmail to send mail. SMTP_SEND = 1 SMTP_SERVER = jynn.tonix.org:25 There is no way in hell, I would have guessed it to be a manpage under r2e, when the application itself is called rss2email. Thanks for filling me in. ;) Man pages are usually named the same as the command that is run. rss2email is the package, r2e is the command. 'dpkg -L rss2email' will list the files that the package installed. HTH -- David Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/07 13:57, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 12:20:47PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On 02/07/07 11:31, Andrei Popescu wrote: If I were to transform my firewall machine in a mailserver then IMAP would be the best choice to access it. That's the *second worst* place to put it. please enlighten. I am in the process of re-examining my home lan. My new mobo on the server includes to nic's so I am thinking of using my server as the firewall as well... you seem, from the above, to think this is a bad idea. I don't doubt that it is... Machines exposed to the Internet should have as few services on them as possible. This reduces the threat surface (i.e., the number of available possible exploits. Thus, the device you should expose to Internet should only be a router+firewall and web cache (if needed). ssh on that box should only be visible to the LAN. Have the firewall *redirect* incoming imaps requests to your server. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFylkfS9HxQb37XmcRArPDAKDKreix8BZLz6MAlPTyJiyCVdiZDACgq2cJ qaV1OLWJT/o7MquFWd70QeQ= =o1jE -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On 05 Feb 2007, Michael Pobega wrote: [snip] I don't mean to change the subject, but I myself used Ubuntu because I felt that Debian was way too outdated for me. Then after multiple system breakages I decided to just switch over to Debian, and it ended up working fine. Debian has all the positives of Ubuntu (apt, deb files, etc.) without all of the negatives (I hate having to do a dist-upgrade, especially in Ubuntu since in Ubuntu it breaks your system 80% of the time). When I first came to the Debian community, I was told that I should go give Ubuntu a shot, and I did. And as Andrew said, I inevitably ended up crawling back to Debian and settled with the (Somewhat out of date) testing distribution. And to boot, I was so happy when I (Just yesterday) changed my sources.list from etch to testing, because now I'll never have to do a distro upgrade again. [snip] I've been using Debian (Sid) exclusively for 4-5 years now. However, as I've posted elsewhere on this list, when I bought a new Thinkpad Z61M last week I had a lot of problems with getting Sid to work properly. The wireless wasn't recognized and, more seriously, nor was the sound. I struggled for two days, but in spite of a lot of helpful advice from people here and elsewhere it still wouldn't work. I therefore tried Ubuntu and both wireless and sound worked out of the box. I've now configured Ubuntu so that it works much the same as Debian; i.e. using wajig instead of synaptic, icewm as window manager, etc. And I've installed Debian on a separate partition so that I can still use it if I want (and perhaps try sound again later). I have to admit that I'd always thought of Ubuntu as an easy-to-install Debian aimed principally at refugees from Windows, but my experience so far has been a lot more positive. Debian is still my distro of choice and it's running on my desktop and an older Thinkpad, but I'm grateful to the Ubuntu people for getting me out of a serious difficulty. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, on-line books and sceptical articles) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:18:54 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 06:43:14PM -0800, Michael M. wrote: And yet, just saying Windows is dangerous doesn't say anything about why or how you should use Linux, nor does it say anything about which Linux distro you should use, nor why Linux would be a better choice than OS X for these users, if in fact it would be. Very true. It is just a starting point. Much like the progress of tobacco smoking in the US (and maybe elsewhere, but here I am, in the US). It was initially accepted and even encouraged. The transition towards change began with admitting that it was a health problem. So it goes with computers. Admitting there is a problem with the generally accepted computing platform is the first step in phasing out that platform for something more robust (whatever that may be). Gosh. sounds like a 12 step program for windows users... Maybe it's not such a bad idea ;) But many from outside the US would not get the joke (I got it because it was obvious from what you wrote). But instead of targeting Windows we could make it: 12 steps to get rid of bad computer habits We would at least teach them good practices. Even Windows can (with lots of effort) be made a reasonably (whatever that means) safe environment. And we could steer users in the right directions (1. don't run as admin, 2. use secure browsers/email clients, 3. use open formats for documents, ...) It's also a fact that most of the exploited vulnerabilities in Windows are vulnerabilities that Microsoft has already fixed, but millions of Windows users have not applied because they can't be bothered or don't know how to use Windows Update. It's hard for me to imagine how these users would cope with the need to enter apt-get update apt-get upgrade in a terminal, which would look very alien to people who've only ever done point click. It is a tragedy. So many pwned boxen. Nothing about modern computing was designed with what is the current average user in mind. At least it appears that way to me in my limited knowledge. Computing was designed for researchers and scientists. The parts we all use day in and day out are simply layers over the top of that structure. It's the same with cars. No matter how sophisticated they are and how simple they are to drive (and we do require a driver's license) we still get a lot (most) of accidents due to user errors. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:15:41 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip proposed changes to installer] I think you talk about the sarge installer. Did you try the latest etch? I have the 'kde' image and it is pretty close to what you describe. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 07:45:17PM +, Chris Lale wrote: Michael Pobega wrote: Andrew Sackville-West wrote: [...] I think in reality Debian doesn't cater to a lot of people's needs On the other hand, there must be a lot of people who would find Debian a great solution if only they could get started. (The more common desktop user just wants Beryl and eye candy, whereas Debian really offers only stability), and there's really nothing we can do about it. This may be true for gamers and the like, but stabilty and security are surely more important for a large number of home users who buy online, bank online, use digital cameras, etc? [...] What I'm trying to say is, if we are just a kind community and we don't lie to potential users, they will probably come back to Debian; And if they don't, they will at least have no gripes or negative things to say about it. We can do all this and still make Debian more accessible. The one thing I really don't understand, though, is why people use Ubuntu. I read in a Linux magazine that Ubuntu's popularity was mainly due to a vibrant community. Well, if that is the case, Debian already has that - it just doesn't yet have much of a focus on complete newbies or BDUs. I think that Douglas's ideas for complete computer newbies could help to fill this gap. I haven't use windows since 3.1, and only then to run Harpoon and the Canadian Encyclopedia. Other than that it was OS/2 for everything until my old version wansn't Y2K+1 compatible. I got a RHL book with a CD (Sam's Teach Yourself Linux in 24 hours) for $2 on a sale table. It took a while to sort out. RPM wasn't satisfactory. The RH GUI apps kept dying. It wasn't my rock solid OS/2 by any means. Then I got the Debian GNU/Linux Bible with 2.2r2. It was great. I learned to network when I came across a second computer. But it has been a steep learning curve. My target audience is non-windows users. Windows users may also find anything I write useful but I can't address their needs. My typical user would be someone like my parents who would like to take an old computer (that someone gives them because it will no longer run windows) that they know nothing about but would like to use to: get email browse the web I would like to take people from knowing absolutly nothing and turn them into good debian newbies able to get email (therefore access debian-user) and browse the web and use google, and to know how to get help. They would be good single-box sysadmins doing things safely and securely. I don't want to create people who know diddly about their computer, who just want a magic box that just works. Sooner or later the magic breaks. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Monday 05 February 2007 16:23, Michael Pobega wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:08:53 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't plan on heading this documentation, though. I just want to try to get everyone involved in it, because I feel at the rate we're going now it's going to end up being just me and one other person. I did contribute one 'note' to newbiedoc and have plans for several others. I will contribute regardless of how many others join. Regards, Andrei So I guess we can call you the second person interested? Well, even if you don't want to take this discussion elsewhere you should still e-mail me so I can document how many people are interested (It's just a lot more simple that way, in my opinion). Hi; I'm just now looking into installing debian on my laptop to test it out. I'm not a newbie to Linux - I've run Redhat, Fedora, Mandrake and SuSE over the past several years. However I am a newbie per debian and/or debian based distros. I would be interested in adding to this effort based on a debian newbie sort of perspective. Of course first off I need to get moving on the install for myself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 11:52:37AM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:15:41 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip proposed changes to installer] I think you talk about the sarge installer. Did you try the latest etch? I have the 'kde' image and it is pretty close to what you describe. I have used the vanilla etch installer, both curses and gui interface and it seems essentially the same as the sarge installer. I have *NOT* used any of the other flavors of installer so I bow to your authority on this issue. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 08:42:03 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 11:52:37AM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:15:41 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip proposed changes to installer] I think you talk about the sarge installer. Did you try the latest etch? I have the 'kde' image and it is pretty close to what you describe. I have used the vanilla etch installer, both curses and gui interface and it seems essentially the same as the sarge installer. I have *NOT* used any of the other flavors of installer so I bow to your authority on this issue. I don't know about the normal CD-1, but kde-CD-1 is great for newcomers. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 08:33:13PM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 08:42:03 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 11:52:37AM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:15:41 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip proposed changes to installer] I think you talk about the sarge installer. Did you try the latest etch? I have the 'kde' image and it is pretty close to what you describe. I have used the vanilla etch installer, both curses and gui interface and it seems essentially the same as the sarge installer. I have *NOT* used any of the other flavors of installer so I bow to your authority on this issue. I don't know about the normal CD-1, but kde-CD-1 is great for newcomers. so does it take you all the way to a working KDE install as a default? or do you still have to select the desktop in tasksel? A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Kevin Kempter wrote: Hi; I'm just now looking into installing debian on my laptop to test it out. I'm not a newbie to Linux - I've run Redhat, Fedora, Mandrake and SuSE over the past several years. However I am a newbie per debian and/or debian based distros. I would be interested in adding to this effort based on a debian newbie sort of perspective. Of course first off I need to get moving on the install for myself. This is my first post to the list, I've been reading for several weeks. I've been a Linux user for about 2 years, and during that time I've tried to learn as much about Debian as I could. I actually started with MEPIS, as it was an easier first step into Debian-based Linux. After listening to the different viewpoints of Debian users, I thought I would add my own. For whatever reason, I tend to get a mental picture of different distros. The size of the developer pool, the user pool, and the apparent experience level of the users can usually give a user an overall mental image of what a distro is like. My impression of Debian, from my very first look, until now, nearly 2 years later is this: Debian is a rock solid operating system that is best used for servers, or by experienced users that know how to shape it into a flexible desktop. I personally think this is an excellent image to have. The reason there are so many Debian-based distros out there is because it is a solid base. That is also why so many mission critical servers seem to use Debian. Of course Debian is also known as being a purist distro, the most free of all. To cater to a lot of new users that are unfamiliar with Linux, some things seem to get thrown in. Example: MEPIS and Ubuntu seem have a lot of drivers thrown in that maybe aren't as open as they could be. This is a sacrifice they make to cater to the new user. I, in no way intend to push away a new user to Linux, I am all for it. However, it may just be my perception of things, but I think that Debian should continue to be Debian, rock solid and committed to being done the right (entirely open) way, and not the quick way. As users gain experience with Debian-based systems, they will find themselves wanting more, and they will come to Debian. You have to sharpen your teeth a little at a time, starting with something soft, and working up to the solid stuff. Debian is that solid stuff, and I think that it is best to keep following the same line it always has. Make it as easy to use as possible, yes. Water it down to make it easier, no. -Dustin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Michael Pobega wrote: Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 02:07:39PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: The one thing I really don't understand, though, is why people use Ubuntu. bleh. responsing anyway... I return to the example of my mom. Many people don't want to update their system. They want it to just work and stay that way. Many users, especially novices, don't deal well with change and don't want it. Ubuntu, if you don't upgrade, is perfect in this respect. At the time it is released, it just works. If you leave it there, if will, of course, just work forever. [...] But it's the same way with Debian Stable/Testing. If you want a system that just /works/, you can run Stable. If Stable is too outdated/doesn't support your hardware, give Testing a run. If you really need a few programs (For me running Testing, I'll use checkinstall as an example) and don't mind a few bugs you can always install from source (Since everything in the repositories is GPL/BSD anyway). Maybe if Debian changed the word /Unstable/ to something else it would bring in more users? Maybe Stable, Testing, and BleedingEdge? Just my thoughts. [...] how about CuttingEdge instead of Bleeding Edge or how about just refering to sid only? Referring to it as Sid seems like a good idea to me, but really no matter what it will be referred to as Unstable by the community; Which will probably just scare users away. The way I see it, is that the Debian mainsite shows that 3.1 Stable (Current) is the only /workable/ release, and is very outdated. Testing (Which /apparently/ has bugs) is a bit more up to date, but not perfect. And Unstable will just break your system, but comes with the most updated programs! In reality, running Debian Sid at this point in time is almost as unstable as running Ubuntu Edgy 6.10; Hell, even running Ubuntu Feisty 7.04 is more unstable than using Sid. I really think the mainsite has too much of an outdated, old look to it. I think that is one of the main things that scares people away. I mean, compare for yourself: http://debian.org/ http://ubuntu.com/ I've been reading the last 30 or so posts on this thread with some interest. Tried going to newbiedoc site but it never responded when I tried to connect. I may have some interest in getting involved too. I'm not the most experienced, or knowledgable, Debian guy around but I can write, or edit, and I would like to get more involved in the Debian project. I agree that the dated look of the debian.org site may have something to do with new user adoption. It kind of threw me when I first started using Debian 2-3 years ago. I looked at it and wondered why in a world of graphics it was text only. It made me think old and outdated and maybe even not very professional in reference to Debian itself. It's a rare marketing scheme that prefers to make the product it is marketing appear old, dated, and unexciting on first blush. I think the reason the site is that way is because it reflects, probably unconsciously, that Debian really is mostly about stability, usability--once it is set up, flexibility, and server and system administration. To me Debian has a business-like feel. Odd that it does considering its political philosophy, but that's sort of how I perceive it. I like that feel to it because it says stability, solidity, lots of strength under the hood. It's the total opposite of Windows and that is one of the reasons I really like it. I will take substance over style any day of the week. I also sort of feel the same as some others have expressed on this thread about Ubuntu leaving them cold. It does me too. I've tried it a couple of times and I've always been left feeling that the OS was dumbed down. Sort of like the feel I get from Windows. My first install was from a set of cd's made when woody was testing. Was it easy? Did I understand some of the questions? Absolutely not. Did I learn a bunch? You bet. That was what hooked me. I was fascinated. I was getting to look under the hood. I was getting to start to learn how the system worked. It was as far away from the disappointing experience of Windows as I could get. I really struggled that first 6 months but I rarely booted back into Windows once I had a working Debian install. Within a year my entire lab had been moved to Debian. Could the installer be made easier for someone who is not very curious? I suppose so but I would absolutely hate seeing Debian go the way of Ubuntu. I'd probably move to Slackware, a *BSD, or Gentoo if that happened. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:40:25 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 08:33:13PM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 08:42:03 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 11:52:37AM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:15:41 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip proposed changes to installer] I think you talk about the sarge installer. Did you try the latest etch? I have the 'kde' image and it is pretty close to what you describe. I have used the vanilla etch installer, both curses and gui interface and it seems essentially the same as the sarge installer. I have *NOT* used any of the other flavors of installer so I bow to your authority on this issue. I don't know about the normal CD-1, but kde-CD-1 is great for newcomers. so does it take you all the way to a working KDE install as a default? or do you still have to select the desktop in tasksel? No package selection. But then I did not use setup a mirror because I have a USB ADSL modem which needs special attention. After the reboot it went straight to kdm. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Freddy Freeloader wrote: Michael Pobega wrote: Referring to it as Sid seems like a good idea to me, but really no matter what it will be referred to as Unstable by the community; Which will probably just scare users away. The way I see it, is that the Debian mainsite shows that 3.1 Stable (Current) is the only /workable/ release, and is very outdated. Testing (Which /apparently/ has bugs) is a bit more up to date, but not perfect. And Unstable will just break your system, but comes with the most updated programs! In reality, running Debian Sid at this point in time is almost as unstable as running Ubuntu Edgy 6.10; Hell, even running Ubuntu Feisty 7.04 is more unstable than using Sid. I really think the mainsite has too much of an outdated, old look to it. I think that is one of the main things that scares people away. I mean, compare for yourself: http://debian.org/ http://ubuntu.com/ I've been reading the last 30 or so posts on this thread with some interest. Tried going to newbiedoc site but it never responded when I tried to connect. I may have some interest in getting involved too. I'm not the most experienced, or knowledgable, Debian guy around but I can write, or edit, and I would like to get more involved in the Debian project. Okay, I've counted you in as one of the people I can e-mail when I finally try to get this together. Don't worry about being overly experienced, to be honest I've only been using Debian for a short while now (Compared to most of you, a *really* short while. One month for Debian and Two months for Ubuntu, before that was distro tests and Windows). Although I'm inexperienced time-wise I've read at least a thousand+ pages of documentation on Debian and Ubuntu, and I've probably in the past three months gathered as much knowledge as most people get in one to two years. As long as you have experience explaining and dumbing things down a bit, the extents of your knowledge aren't really too important. I agree that the dated look of the debian.org site may have something to do with new user adoption. It kind of threw me when I first started using Debian 2-3 years ago. I looked at it and wondered why in a world of graphics it was text only. It made me think old and outdated and maybe even not very professional in reference to Debian itself. It's a rare marketing scheme that prefers to make the product it is marketing appear old, dated, and unexciting on first blush. I think the reason the site is that way is because it reflects, probably unconsciously, that Debian really is mostly about stability, usability--once it is set up, flexibility, and server and system administration. To me Debian has a business-like feel. Odd that it does considering its political philosophy, but that's sort of how I perceive it. I like that feel to it because it says stability, solidity, lots of strength under the hood. It's the total opposite of Windows and that is one of the reasons I really like it. I will take substance over style any day of the week. Obviously is does back up the Debian distro in a way, but even the site isn't without it's problems. I personally think it gets the job done, but I think it needs a bit more color. Like maybe how they did the navbar (Blue rounded box around it), they could blanket the whole page in something like that? I don't know, but something to take debian.org out of that white text on black bg feel, and into a bit more of a fun to visit site. Without compromising it's professional feel. But this thread isn't about the site, it's about documentation for newer users, so let's get back on topic. I also sort of feel the same as some others have expressed on this thread about Ubuntu leaving them cold. It does me too. I've tried it a couple of times and I've always been left feeling that the OS was dumbed down. Sort of like the feel I get from Windows. My first install was from a set of cd's made when woody was testing. Was it easy? Did I understand some of the questions? Absolutely not. Did I learn a bunch? You bet. That was what hooked me. I was fascinated. I was getting to look under the hood. I was getting to start to learn how the system worked. It was as far away from the disappointing experience of Windows as I could get. I really struggled that first 6 months but I rarely booted back into Windows once I had a working Debian install. Within a year my entire lab had been moved to Debian. This is the beauty of Linux, I felt so stupid 3 months ago and in the past three months alone I've learned so much; Everything from the difference between filesystems, to how to change your computer's hostname, to how to get a working Apache with PHP5 and MySQL support. That's what I love about Debian/Linux/GNU, you learn so much if you don't take the wuss' way out. Could the installer be made easier for someone who is not very curious? I suppose so but I would
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:43:58 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could the installer be made easier for someone who is not very curious? I suppose so but I would absolutely hate seeing Debian go the way of Ubuntu. I'd probably move to Slackware, a *BSD, or Gentoo if that happened. I would hate to see a graphical installer for Debian. I think the Sorry to disappoint you, but etch has a graphical installer (though not as default). But then I don't think this is a bad idea and IIRC it has better support for some special characters. Besides, Debian is about choice. You can use the text-mode OR gui installer. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:43:58 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could the installer be made easier for someone who is not very curious? I suppose so but I would absolutely hate seeing Debian go the way of Ubuntu. I'd probably move to Slackware, a *BSD, or Gentoo if that happened. I would hate to see a graphical installer for Debian. I think the Sorry to disappoint you, but etch has a graphical installer (though not as default). But then I don't think this is a bad idea and IIRC it has better support for some special characters. Besides, Debian is about choice. You can use the text-mode OR gui installer. Regards, Andrei Etch has a GUI installer, really? I never noticed it. But I'm talking about one to the extent of Ubuntu, with a whole graphical LiveCD environment and everything. Debian practically forces that style of installation on the user, and half of them can't boot into the CD and end up just giving up on Linux and going back to Windows (I've seen many people call Linux an infant operating system because of the LiveCD's inabilities). My mail was mostly directed at LiveCD installers though, not graphical installers in general (Sorry if I didn't specify this). Where is the graphical installer, anyway? I'd love to try it out myself, I haven't got the chance (I just used NetInstall's default curses installer). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Kevin Kempter wrote: Hi; I'm just now looking into installing debian on my laptop to test it out. I'm not a newbie to Linux - I've run Redhat, Fedora, Mandrake and SuSE over the past several years. However I am a newbie per debian and/or debian based distros. I would be interested in adding to this effort based on a debian newbie sort of perspective. Of course first off I need to get moving on the install for myself. This is my first post to the list, I've been reading for several weeks. I've been a Linux user for about 2 years, and during that time I've tried to learn as much about Debian as I could. I actually started with MEPIS, as it was an easier first step into Debian-based Linux. After listening to the different viewpoints of Debian users, I thought I would add my own. For whatever reason, I tend to get a mental picture of different distros. The size of the developer pool, the user pool, and the apparent experience level of the users can usually give a user an overall mental image of what a distro is like. My impression of Debian, from my very first look, until now, nearly 2 years later is this: Debian is a rock solid operating system that is best used for servers, or by experienced users that know how to shape it into a flexible desktop. I personally think this is an excellent image to have. The reason there are so many Debian-based distros out there is because it is a solid base. That is also why so many mission critical servers seem to use Debian. Of course Debian is also known as being a purist distro, the most free of all. To cater to a lot of new users that are unfamiliar with Linux, some things seem to get thrown in. Example: MEPIS and Ubuntu seem have a lot of drivers thrown in that maybe aren't as open as they could be. This is a sacrifice they make to cater to the new user. I, in no way intend to push away a new user to Linux, I am all for it. However, it may just be my perception of things, but I think that Debian should continue to be Debian, rock solid and committed to being done the right (entirely open) way, and not the quick way. As users gain experience with Debian-based systems, they will find themselves wanting more, and they will come to Debian. You have to sharpen your teeth a little at a time, starting with something soft, and working up to the solid stuff. Debian is that solid stuff, and I think that it is best to keep following the same line it always has. Make it as easy to use as possible, yes. Water it down to make it easier, no. -Dustin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:20:15 -0600 Dustin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Debian is a rock solid operating system that is best used for servers, or by experienced users that know how to shape it into a flexible desktop. I personally think this is an excellent image to have. The reason there are so many Debian-based distros out there is because it is a solid base. That is also why so many mission critical servers seem to use Debian. Of course Debian is also known as being a purist distro, the most free of all. To cater to a lot of new users that are unfamiliar with Linux, some things seem to get thrown in. Example: MEPIS and Ubuntu seem have a lot of drivers thrown in that maybe aren't as open as they could be. This is a sacrifice they make to cater to the new user. I, in no way intend to push away a new user to Linux, I am all for it. However, it may just be my perception of things, but I think that Debian should continue to be Debian, rock solid and committed to being done the right (entirely open) way, and not the quick way. As users gain experience with Debian-based systems, they will find themselves wanting more, and they will come to Debian. You have to sharpen your teeth a little at a time, starting with something soft, and working up to the solid stuff. Debian is that solid stuff, and I think that it is best to keep following the same line it always has. Make it as easy to use as possible, yes. Water it down to make it easier, no. -Dustin Totally agree 100%. I run 3 internet servers, command line only, 2 using sarge and the latest (non-critical) using etch. I have also just installed etch on my desktop at home, GUI with Gnome. Have had no problems (well, apart from my balls ups) with any of them. Over the years I have tried, in rough order of installation, Red Hat, SuSe, Mandrake, Slackware, Gentoo, Ubuntu and Sabayon. There were others (OK I'm a Linux slut). I still have a soft spot for Slack but Debian just does it for me. Anyhow, I found the latest etch installed effortlessly and, with a few minor exceptions, worked 'out of the box'. Regards -- John K Masters - User #417400 in the Linux Counter http://counter.li.org/ No trees were killed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were terribly inconvenienced. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 03:06:11PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: My mail was mostly directed at LiveCD installers though, not graphical installers in general (Sorry if I didn't specify this). Where is the graphical installer, anyway? I'd love to try it out myself, I haven't got the chance (I just used NetInstall's default curses installer). I seem to remember that lst time I used the etch netinstaller it asked me if I wanted the graphical installer or the text-mode installer. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:06:11 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where is the graphical installer, anyway? I'd love to try it out myself, I haven't got the chance (I just used NetInstall's default curses installer). Just boot with 'installgui' or 'expertgui'. I've had bad experiences with Kubuntu myself. I convinced my brother to try it, but it would freeze at loading KDE. He was pretty disappointed and gave up. Now I want to give it another try with etch as I am more experienced and I know Debian much better anyway. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 04:08:53PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: I agree with you, I'm not one of those people who are completely against Ubuntu; I think just anything you can accomplish in Ubuntu you can accomplish in Debian, and probably more effectively/easily. As for the newbie documentation, we should definitely get something together. Everyone who is interested email me at my personal emailing just to say Aie!. Drop me an AIM/MSN/Jabber contact so I can reach you beyond email if possible. Aie! Don't have AIM/MSN/Jabber. I like email and wiki. Especially if we're not all in the same time zone. I agree with Hendrik about the time zone problem. I think it would be great if we we could all get our heads together and thrash out some ideas. One way of doing this would be to set up an email list for this purpose. I would be happy to do this on the NewbieDOC account at berlios.de. This would not mean that anyone would need to be tied to the NewbieDOC project - it's just that the facility is already there. At least it would get us started. What do you think? -- Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:06:11 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where is the graphical installer, anyway? I'd love to try it out myself, I haven't got the chance (I just used NetInstall's default curses installer). Just boot with 'installgui' or 'expertgui'. I've had bad experiences with Kubuntu myself. I convinced my brother to try it, but it would freeze at loading KDE. He was pretty disappointed and gave up. Now I want to give it another try with etch as I am more experienced and I know Debian much better anyway. Regards, Andrei Ah, that's pretty cool. I found a screenshot here: http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/debian-testing-gui-installer-paritition-disks-2.png Is expertgui a seperate GUI from curses? I can't seem to find anything on google about it (And I don't have the Debian NetInstall CD to boot at the moment) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Freddy Freeloader wrote: Michael Pobega wrote: [...] I've been reading the last 30 or so posts on this thread with some interest. Tried going to newbiedoc site but it never responded when I tried to connect. Berlios can be a little temperamental - i suspect server maintenance. Try again later normal works. -- Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:58:10 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:06:11 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where is the graphical installer, anyway? I'd love to try it out myself, I haven't got the chance (I just used NetInstall's default curses installer). Just boot with 'installgui' or 'expertgui'. I've had bad experiences with Kubuntu myself. I convinced my brother to try it, but it would freeze at loading KDE. He was pretty disappointed and gave up. Now I want to give it another try with etch as I am more experienced and I know Debian much better anyway. Regards, Andrei Ah, that's pretty cool. I found a screenshot here: http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/debian-testing-gui-installer-paritition-disks-2.png Is expertgui a seperate GUI from curses? I can't seem to find anything on google about it (And I don't have the Debian NetInstall CD to boot at the moment) The gui (expert or normal) is separate from the ncurses installer. Regards, Andrei P.S. Please don't CC me, I read the list. -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:58:10 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:06:11 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where is the graphical installer, anyway? I'd love to try it out myself, I haven't got the chance (I just used NetInstall's default curses installer). Just boot with 'installgui' or 'expertgui'. I've had bad experiences with Kubuntu myself. I convinced my brother to try it, but it would freeze at loading KDE. He was pretty disappointed and gave up. Now I want to give it another try with etch as I am more experienced and I know Debian much better anyway. Regards, Andrei Ah, that's pretty cool. I found a screenshot here: http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/debian-testing-gui-installer-paritition-disks-2.png Is expertgui a seperate GUI from curses? I can't seem to find anything on google about it (And I don't have the Debian NetInstall CD to boot at the moment) The gui (expert or normal) is separate from the ncurses installer. Regards, Andrei P.S. Please don't CC me, I read the list. I always thought you were supposed to respond to messages as Reply All, but I'll get out of that habit. Sorry about that. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:28:44PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: I always thought you were supposed to respond to messages as Reply All, but I'll get out of that habit. Sorry about that. Most decent mail programs have a list reply button or function that correctly identifies the mailing list and sends the reply to only the list. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:28:44PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: I always thought you were supposed to respond to messages as Reply All, but I'll get out of that habit. Sorry about that. Most decent mail programs have a list reply button or function that correctly identifies the mailing list and sends the reply to only the list. Regards, -Roberto Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? (I have Icedove/Thunderbird set to filter out all mail with @lists.debian.org to my Debian mailing list folder, and then from there automatically sort which mailing list it's from.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:35:22 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:28:44PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: I always thought you were supposed to respond to messages as Reply All, but I'll get out of that habit. Sorry about that. Most decent mail programs have a list reply button or function that correctly identifies the mailing list and sends the reply to only the list. Regards, -Roberto Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? (I have Icedove/Thunderbird set to filter out all mail with @lists.debian.org to my Debian mailing list folder, and then from there automatically sort which mailing list it's from.) For a decent graphical mail client you can't beat Sylpheed-Claws. Handles threading really well and is very customisable when you get under the hood. Regards PS if you have the time and patience try Mutt -- John K Masters - User #417400 in the Linux Counter http://counter.li.org/ No trees were killed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were terribly inconvenienced. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:35:22PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? (I have Icedove/Thunderbird set to filter out all mail with @lists.debian.org to my Debian mailing list folder, and then from there automatically sort which mailing list it's from.) Personally, I like mutt. I started out with T-bird back when it was at version 0.5 or 0.6, before it was even packaged for Debian. However, the lack of a decent list-reply feature (among many other things) made me take a good hard look at mutt. I also like mutt's extreme flexibility. My chief complaint is that IMAP support is a little bit less well integrated than I would like. Other than that it is great. It also lets me ssh in from pretty much anywhere and have access to my mail the same way no matter what. If you are interested in a GUI mailer, then sylpheed-claws, kmail or Evolution might also work for you. I also tried out gnumail.app and really liked it. The advantage of T-bird is that if you require access to your mail (e.g., via IMAP) from different hosts with different operating systems, then you can get the same config/interface everywhere. Of course, if you are able to run an ssh server on your own machine, then mutt or any other text MUA will get you essentially the same thing. Also, MUA wars are like text editor wars, database wars, and so on. Everyon has a favorite and can cite tons of reasons that one is the best and all others are no good. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Hello Michael. Michael Pobega, 06.02.2007 22:35: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:28:44PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: I always thought you were supposed to respond to messages as Reply All, but I'll get out of that habit. Sorry about that. Most decent mail programs have a list reply button or function that correctly identifies the mailing list and sends the reply to only the list. Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? You don’t need another client since Thunderbird/Icedove has an extension[0] which enables you to reply to list only. I’m using it for a long time now. Don’t worry about the patch mentioned on the site, it’s already in Debian’s Thunderbird/Icedove package[1]. Regards, Mathias [0] http://alumnit.ca/wiki/index.php?page=ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension [1] http://packages.qa.debian.org/t/thunderbird/news/20060812T181723Z.html -- debian/rules signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
John K Masters wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:35:22 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:28:44PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: I always thought you were supposed to respond to messages as Reply All, but I'll get out of that habit. Sorry about that. Most decent mail programs have a list reply button or function that correctly identifies the mailing list and sends the reply to only the list. Regards, -Roberto Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? (I have Icedove/Thunderbird set to filter out all mail with @lists.debian.org to my Debian mailing list folder, and then from there automatically sort which mailing list it's from.) For a decent graphical mail client you can't beat Sylpheed-Claws. Handles threading really well and is very customisable when you get under the hood. Regards PS if you have the time and patience try Mutt As far as I know I've read that Mutt doesn't work well with Gmail; And seeing as my main/only e-mail account is gmail, I can't use Mutt :-( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:39:41 + John K Masters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:35:22 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:28:44PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: I always thought you were supposed to respond to messages as Reply All, but I'll get out of that habit. Sorry about that. Most decent mail programs have a list reply button or function that correctly identifies the mailing list and sends the reply to only the list. Regards, -Roberto Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? (I have Icedove/Thunderbird set to filter out all mail with @lists.debian.org to my Debian mailing list folder, and then from there automatically sort which mailing list it's from.) For a decent graphical mail client you can't beat Sylpheed-Claws. Handles threading really well and is very customisable when you get under the hood. But use the -gtk2 package. Regards PS if you have the time and patience try Mutt Or if you feel brave, mutt-ng from experimental. I you set up your mail to use Maildir than you can switch mail clients with problems, or even use many at the same time. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
Mathias Brodala wrote: Hello Michael. Michael Pobega, 06.02.2007 22:35: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:28:44PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: I always thought you were supposed to respond to messages as Reply All, but I'll get out of that habit. Sorry about that. Most decent mail programs have a list reply button or function that correctly identifies the mailing list and sends the reply to only the list. Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? You don’t need another client since Thunderbird/Icedove has an extension[0] which enables you to reply to list only. I’m using it for a long time now. Don’t worry about the patch mentioned on the site, it’s already in Debian’s Thunderbird/Icedove package[1]. Regards, Mathias [0] http://alumnit.ca/wiki/index.php?page=ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension [1] http://packages.qa.debian.org/t/thunderbird/news/20060812T181723Z.html Thanks a lot for turning me on to that plugin, very helpful. Now I don't have to work on transferring over any of my archives :D Okay, let's get back on topic. So far I have five other people who are interested in working on this documentation, I'm hoping to get a few more writers than editors before we begin (So far I believe 4/5 people who signed up want to be editors and not writers, which makes my job a lot more painful). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tuesday 06 February 2007 16:35, Michael Pobega wrote: Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? (I have Icedove/Thunderbird set to filter out all mail with @lists.debian.org to my Debian mailing list folder, and then from there automatically sort which mailing list it's from.) List of email clients with reply-to-list feature can be found at http://wiki.debian.org/ReplyToListEmailClients A not so complete list of email clients can be found at http://wiki.debian.org/EmailClients You can try different ones and decide for yourself. Personally I like kmail and then thunderbird. raju -- Kamaraju S Kusumanchi http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/ http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/ -- Get a spam free email account - Visit http://www.bluebottle.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 03:06:11PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: Etch has a GUI installer, really? I never noticed it. Read those syslinux.cfg pages. you can get gui, the default curses, or even readline for use with really dumb terminals, like a teletype on serial. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tuesday 06 February 2007 14:43, Michael Pobega wrote: I would hate to see a graphical installer for Debian. I think the curses installer does just fine, a graphical installer would only bring in people thinking that Debian is Windows. The reason for having a graphical installer is that there currently is no way to support some languages with just an ncurses based installer. I believe this is the main reason why we have a graphical installer and why it is the default in etch. raju -- Kamaraju S Kusumanchi http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/ http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/ -- Save on Your Health Insurance Compare multiple quotes to save with NetQuote's free service http://tags.bluebottle.com/fc/MhtYWUi3OrSDJLW4Ajw4ZQGcBDNUOfixZxpxU/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 11:50:23PM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:39:41 + John K Masters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:35:22 -0500 Michael Pobega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 04:28:44PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: Using icedove at the moment, can you suggest to me a better mail client to use for mailing list *and* personal email on the same account? (I have Icedove/Thunderbird set to filter out all mail with @lists.debian.org to my Debian mailing list folder, and then from there automatically sort which mailing list it's from.) For a decent graphical mail client you can't beat Sylpheed-Claws. Handles threading really well and is very customisable when you get under the hood. But use the -gtk2 package. Regards PS if you have the time and patience try Mutt Or if you feel brave, mutt-ng from experimental. I you set up your mail to use Maildir than you can switch mail clients with problems, or even use many at the same time. Real geeks use mailx. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 06:18:27PM -0500, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: Real geeks use mailx. Real geeks know how to trim their mail, so they don't need to quote long messages in their entirety for a one line reply. Steve -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 06:18:27PM -0500, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: Real geeks use mailx. Pfft. *Real* geeks telnet to port 25 on the destination mail server and type the entire SMTP session manually :-) Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 06:17:15PM -0500, Kamaraju Kusumanchi wrote: The reason for having a graphical installer is that there currently is no way to support some languages with just an ncurses based installer. I believe this is the main reason why we have a graphical installer and why it is the default in etch. Correct. The reason it has been this long in coming is because a graphical installer must still support all (or at least the majority) of the architectures supported by Debian. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Attracting newbies (Was Booting Debian/testing fails)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 11:41:00PM +, Steve Kemp wrote: Real geeks know how to trim their mail, so they don't need to quote long messages in their entirety for a one line reply. Lk 6-36 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
