Re: Back up routines
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:19:36PM -0400, Scott Gifford wrote: Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net writes: [snip] Perfectly true in theory, but in practice very few small businesses and nonprofits I'm worked with do this. If an organization is large enough that there is an IT person to assign this responsibility to, it's workable, but in a small organization where IT is done by contractors, random staffers, or the owner/executive director, nobody really thinks much about the computers as long as they work, and routine maintenance like this falls through the cracks. Anything that can do secure backups automatically is a good idea IMO. friend of mine who looks after a few business has setup a rdiff server offsite to the business and rdiff-backups across the internet, charges them a small fee. Can get a physical access to the backup data for easy restore. see as his business is contracted todo the backup restore seems okay. he has a few a adsl connections and using raid5 (or raid6). there could be more redundance but for the cost if fits most companys needs Scott. -- They have miscalculated me as a leader. - George W. Bush 09/13/2000 Westminster, CA signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Back up routines
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 06:48:17PM +0100, AG wrote: Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure. Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. It would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway. Any recommendations please? I've used BackupPC extensively, and I find it to be excellent. I've used it at home and in a business, backing up both Linux and Windows machines. At home I backup up my stuff locally, and back up my parents' and sister's computers remotely over the internet (using rsync over ssh). My father also has BackupPC running, and he backs up his stuff locally and mine remotely. Why bother backing up locally if it's backed up remotely? Because it's much quicker to restore from a local backup. At work I was backing up in a similar fashion, one office in the US and one in the UK. I had a real emergency once: 11 GB of data got accidentally deleted from a file server. I had it restored in 15 minutes. BackupPC isn't simple, but it's not terribly difficult. It just requires reading some docs. Advantages: Backups are automatic -- no human intervention required once it's configured. Backups can be done remotely, over the internet. Your data is controlled by *you*, not a 3rd party. Files are pooled and compressed, so when backing up the same file multiple times, the file is only stored once. Disadvantages: ? There probably are some, but I haven't experienced anything major in 2-3 years of using it. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:08:24 -0400 Eric Gerlach egerl...@feds.uwaterloo.ca wrote: Hello Eric, 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it; Ron's already pointed out that, at the drop of a hat, Amazon can just delete your account. If relying on one 3rd party for backups you should worry. Probably a lot. For example, I can do backups and store the data in two places easily. I'll wager that Amazon don't have one set of your data in (say) New York, and another set in (for argument's sake) Toronto. There'll just be the one set. If that site goes offline, your backups are as much use as a chocolate teapot. In any case, the *real* cost issue WRT to backing data up is not how much the storage costs, but how much it would cost to _manually_ re-enter all the data. This will, inevitably, be a lot more than the cost of an HD or two. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent There's no point in asking you'll get no reply Pretty Vacant - Sex Pistols signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Back up routines
I trust Amazon more than a HD. You're free not to, but I've seen more HDs fail than I have Amazons. I'm not sure the HD's reliability is much of an issue: you wouldn't want to backup to a single drive which you bring back home at night, otherwise, during the day you're at the mercy of a big accident. So instead you want to have 2 drives (e.g. one at home and one at the office) which you swap every once in a while (e.g. daily). You'll also want to replace those drives every once in a while (e.g. every 3 years, or whenever the backup size grows past the capacity of the drive). Uploading to a remote server is more automated (client doesn't even have to *think* about it), and for low amounts of data, is cheaper. Agreed. Luckily I have a machine of mine off-site, so I still don't have to rely on Amazon. Actually, most people have a machine off-site: one at home and one at the office, so they're both mutually off-site. Stefan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
I haven't had a chance to try it out but http://www.boxbackup.org/ looks like a pretty cool solution. --Ben On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Stefan Monniermonn...@iro.umontreal.ca wrote: I trust Amazon more than a HD. You're free not to, but I've seen more HDs fail than I have Amazons. I'm not sure the HD's reliability is much of an issue: you wouldn't want to backup to a single drive which you bring back home at night, otherwise, during the day you're at the mercy of a big accident. So instead you want to have 2 drives (e.g. one at home and one at the office) which you swap every once in a while (e.g. daily). You'll also want to replace those drives every once in a while (e.g. every 3 years, or whenever the backup size grows past the capacity of the drive). Uploading to a remote server is more automated (client doesn't even have to *think* about it), and for low amounts of data, is cheaper. Agreed. Luckily I have a machine of mine off-site, so I still don't have to rely on Amazon. Actually, most people have a machine off-site: one at home and one at the office, so they're both mutually off-site. Stefan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Tuesday 28 July 2009 05:35:20 Jon Dowland wrote: On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 08:51:31PM +0200, Johan Grönqvist wrote: The homepage http://rdiff-backup.nongnu.org/ also mentions some graphical front ends that may be useful, but I have not tried any of them. I am in the process of packaging archfs, a FUSE-powered user filesystem tool that provides a view onto an rdiff-backup. I had no idea such a program existed. I've been wanting to add such functionality to my dosbox frontend, but haven't had the time to fiddle with it myself. It's cool to learn something new every day! :) Do you have an estimate of when it will appear in sid? -- Thanks: Joseph Rawson signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Back up routines
On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100 AG computing.acco...@googlemail.com wrote: Hello AG, Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an Unsatisfactory, IMO. Any back up should be made to a medium that can be removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different part of the building. My favourite for this is JungleDisk. It stores your files on Amazon's S3, and as a backup program it's half decent. It's not free/libre/open-source, but it's cheap (US$20), and you get free upgrades for life. Oh, and S3 storage is cheap. $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download. I'm backing up about 150MB per day one place for about US$3/month. I was in a local computer store near Boulder, CO a few days ago. They are selling IDE disk drives, any size, for $0.25/GB. SATA are even cheaper. So, after just 2mo it would be cheaper to buy than to rent. Renting is easier, but I wonder how long the web based services will be in business. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On 2009-07-28 00:59, Paul E Condon wrote: [snip] I was in a local computer store near Boulder, CO a few days ago. They are selling IDE disk drives, any size, for $0.25/GB. SATA are even What insane world do we live in where $0.25/GB is considered 3x too expensive? -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net writes: On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: [...] Oh, and S3 storage is cheap. $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download. [...] Renting is easier, but I wonder how long the web based services will be in business. S3 is run by Amazon, and Amazon has been around for longer than most hard drives I've had. Even if Amazon went bankrupt every 5 years, it would still have an MTBF comparable to most hard drives. :-) Scott. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On 2009-07-28 01:21, Scott Gifford wrote: Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net writes: On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: [...] Oh, and S3 storage is cheap. $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download. A 1TB HDD from NewEgg is $0.085/GB once, and you own it, and $0.00/GB to upload/download. 2TB drives are the outrageous price of $0.115/GB. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 08:51:31PM +0200, Johan Grönqvist wrote: The homepage http://rdiff-backup.nongnu.org/ also mentions some graphical front ends that may be useful, but I have not tried any of them. I am in the process of packaging archfs, a FUSE-powered user filesystem tool that provides a view onto an rdiff-backup. -- Jon Dowland signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Back up routines
As noted by others, you will receive many different recommendations for pieces of software. IIWY, I'd ask the following questions a) how easy/reliable is performing a *restore*? not how easy is it to perform the backup. This ancient website was originally setup as a marketing tool for a product that (I believe) no longer exists. http://www.taobackup.com/ However, it lists seven core principles of backups (in a light hearted and amusing way) that you should compare any backup solution against. From my experience, I would discount anything which relies on hard link trees. That means a lot of rsync-based solutions, including rsnapshot. Apart from not being a 1:1 backup (you lose hard links!), the filesystem metadata storage explodes for any reasonable sized filesystem and any reasonable frequency of backup. I currently use rdiff-snapshot. I personally think there is still a lot of space for new solutions (yet to see a good git-based one) -- Jon Dowland signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Back up routines
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 02:21:21AM -0400, Scott Gifford wrote: Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net writes: On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: [...] Oh, and S3 storage is cheap. $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download. [...] Renting is easier, but I wonder how long the web based services will be in business. S3 is run by Amazon, and Amazon has been around for longer than most hard drives I've had. Even if Amazon went bankrupt every 5 years, it would still have an MTBF comparable to most hard drives. :-) Yeah, I'm hardly worried that Amazon is going to go out of business. And if JungleDisk does, well I have their open-source decrypter downloaded for just such an occasion. Given that they were bought by RackSpace, though, I'm not worried about that either. If you want to TNO, go ahead, but in the real world I don't need that. On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 01:32:36AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-07-28 01:21, Scott Gifford wrote: Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net writes: On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: [...] Oh, and S3 storage is cheap. $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download. A 1TB HDD from NewEgg is $0.085/GB once, and you own it, and $0.00/GB to upload/download. 2TB drives are the outrageous price of $0.115/GB. Sure. Let's go with 1TB for $90. Now I have to make sure the client brings the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day. Try explaining to them why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them. You won't be getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure. Also, at $3/mo, that's almost three years before I've paid the equivalent amount of a 1 TB drive. Plus, you have to spend the money up front, and with an opportunity cost of 10%, that extends the repayment time to 35 months. That's near the end of the warranty. I'm not going to keep vital backups on a HD that old. JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup. It's about off-site backup, while being painless for the person using it. Cheers, -- Eric Gerlach, Network Administrator Federation of Students University of Waterloo p: (519) 888-4567 x36329 e: egerl...@feds.uwaterloo.ca -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: [snip] Sure. Let's go with 1TB for $90. Now I have to make sure the client brings the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day. Try explaining to them why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them. You won't be getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure. [snip] JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup. It's about off-site backup, while being painless for the person using it. Woe is fricking me! My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13 disk packs 30 years ago. They've obviously got newer hardware now (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is still the same: bring your important data off-site every night. It's just Something You Do. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:02:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: [snip] Sure. Let's go with 1TB for $90. Now I have to make sure the client brings the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day. Try explaining to them why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them. You won't be getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure. [snip] JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup. It's about off-site backup, while being painless for the person using it. Woe is fricking me! My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13 disk packs 30 years ago. They've obviously got newer hardware now (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is still the same: bring your important data off-site every night. It's just Something You Do. s/do/used to do/ Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner these two choices: 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take it home at night; or 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it; and I bet over 80% of them choose #2. They'll say The time it takes me to do that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!. The ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO. Cheers, -- Eric Gerlach, Network Administrator Federation of Students University of Waterloo p: (519) 888-4567 x36329 e: egerl...@feds.uwaterloo.ca -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Gerlachegerl...@feds.uwaterloo.ca wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:02:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13 disk packs 30 years ago. They've obviously got newer hardware now (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is still the same: bring your important data off-site every night. It's just Something You Do. s/do/used to do/ Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner these two choices: 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take it home at night; or 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it; and I bet over 80% of them choose #2. They'll say The time it takes me to do that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!. The ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO. It depends on the amount of data you have. If you're a decent-sized small business with a lot of databases to back up and you're pushing 10 GB nightly, then it's more like $33/mo, assuming you never actually have to use the backup. If you have to *use* the backup, your restore process will be constrained to the speed of your internet connection, which could result in some very significant downtime which may or may not be acceptable for your business. Each way has advantages and disadvantages; there isn't a one-size-fits-all for this. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On 2009-07-28 10:08, Eric Gerlach wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:02:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: [snip] Sure. Let's go with 1TB for $90. Now I have to make sure the client brings the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day. Try explaining to them why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them. You won't be getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure. [snip] JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup. It's about off-site backup, while being painless for the person using it. Woe is fricking me! My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13 disk packs 30 years ago. They've obviously got newer hardware now (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is still the same: bring your important data off-site every night. It's just Something You Do. s/do/used to do/ Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner these two choices: 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take it home at night; or 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it; I worry about things the disappearance of which would destroy my business. and I bet over 80% of them choose #2. They'll say The time it takes me to do that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!. The ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO. Gah!!! Computers are for automation, not manual labor. Plug it in, click an icon, and go about your business. When it's done, unplug and bring home. That's 2 minutes of actual manual labor. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:08 -0400, Eric Gerlach wrote: Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner these two choices: 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take it home at night; or 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it; and I bet over 80% of them choose #2. They'll say The time it takes me to do that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!. The ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO. I guess you're right in what small business owners are doing, but IMHO they are not valuing confidentiality of their data high enough. I don't know which encryption standards are in use, but I doubt most people even know about http://www.schneier.com/essay-198.html by Bruce Schneier, let alone understand what he is saying. I say this being hit by a complete HW and data loss to a fire in '97. I prefer keeping my data off-site and off-net. my 2¢ Siggy -- Please don't Cc: me when replying, I might not see either copy. bsb-at-psycho-dot-informationsanarchistik-dot-de or:bsb-at-psycho-dot-i21k-dot-de O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Back up routines
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:17:04AM -0400, Jeff Soules wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take it home at night; or 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it; and I bet over 80% of them choose #2. They'll say The time it takes me to do that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!. The ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO. It depends on the amount of data you have. If you're a decent-sized small business with a lot of databases to back up and you're pushing 10 GB nightly, then it's more like $33/mo, assuming you never actually have to use the backup. If you have to *use* the backup, your restore process will be constrained to the speed of your internet connection, which could result in some very significant downtime which may or may not be acceptable for your business. Each way has advantages and disadvantages; there isn't a one-size-fits-all for this. For sure. But I don't have anyone pushing 10 GB nightly :-) It's just that people were telling me to go buy a hard drive for 150 MB/day, and I wanted to point out that for many people that's ridiculous. On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:19:43AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: I worry about things the disappearance of which would destroy my business. I trust Amazon more than a HD. You're free not to, but I've seen more HDs fail than I have Amazons. Gah!!! Computers are for automation, not manual labor. Plug it in, click an icon, and go about your business. When it's done, unplug and bring home. That's 2 minutes of actual manual labor. Which, if you multiply it out, is more than $3. (2 minutes * $20/hour * ~20 days/month) / (60 minutes/hour) = $13.33 Uploading to a remote server is more automated (client doesn't even have to *think* about it), and for low amounts of data, is cheaper. On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 05:29:56PM +0200, Siggy Brentrup wrote: I guess you're right in what small business owners are doing, but IMHO they are not valuing confidentiality of their data high enough. I don't know which encryption standards are in use, but I doubt most people even know about http://www.schneier.com/essay-198.html by Bruce Schneier, let alone understand what he is saying. For the record, JungleDisk uses AES-256. My bigger worry with one client is that they refuse to use good passwords, despite my best advice. Oh, and I bet if I pointed out to them that the NSA might be able to get at their data, they'd tell me If the NSA wants it they can have it! It's mostly sales/accounting data. They probably wouldn't even care if their competitors got it. :-) I say this being hit by a complete HW and data loss to a fire in '97. I prefer keeping my data off-site and off-net. If off-net is a concern, then don't use Amazon. It's not a concern for me or any of my clients. Cheers, -- Eric Gerlach, Network Administrator Federation of Students University of Waterloo p: (519) 888-4567 x36329 e: egerl...@feds.uwaterloo.ca -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jon Dowland wrote: any reasonable frequency of backup. I currently use rdiff-snapshot. I personally think there is still a lot of space for new solutions (yet to see a good git-based one) s/rdiff-snapshot/rdiff-backup Johannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkpvIkgACgkQC1NzPRl9qEWaRwCfZ+U+V4WqceyILVCt70ruooCG N1sAnA8CQxY9+KvEpD2T6rsmmGtgfeoy =nEfJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
I am toying with livedrive which is an ecomomical storage site. It caters to the windows crowd but, partly at my nagging, set up ftp access. I now nag them for rsync :-) The problem with ALL of these is upload speeds. The large backup needs the rockest solidest connection to simply get done. Curlftpfs, mirrordir and other ftp clients will hangup not-so-nicely on disconnects and IO errors. Upload speeds are capped by many providers to like 50kbs (or worse) and a wav file or large database will simply not make it over. Start the backup, go home, find the thing hung in the morning. Cannot just set it and forget it. So, sneakernet with an el-cheapo portable HD ends up being the only way. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On 2009-07-28 11:07, Eric Gerlach wrote: [snip] (client doesn't even have to *think* about it) That's the part that really pisses me off: willful ignorance. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net writes: On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: [snip] Sure. Let's go with 1TB for $90. Now I have to make sure the client brings the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day. Try explaining to them why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them. You won't be getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure. [snip] JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup. It's about off-site backup, while being painless for the person using it. Woe is fricking me! My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13 disk packs 30 years ago. They've obviously got newer hardware now (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is still the same: bring your important data off-site every night. It's just Something You Do. Perfectly true in theory, but in practice very few small businesses and nonprofits I'm worked with do this. If an organization is large enough that there is an IT person to assign this responsibility to, it's workable, but in a small organization where IT is done by contractors, random staffers, or the owner/executive director, nobody really thinks much about the computers as long as they work, and routine maintenance like this falls through the cracks. Anything that can do secure backups automatically is a good idea IMO. Scott. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
* Jon Dowland jon+debian-u...@alcopop.org [090728 06:42]: From my experience, I would discount anything which relies on hard link trees. That means a lot of rsync-based solutions, including rsnapshot. Apart from not being a 1:1 backup (you lose hard links!), the filesystem metadata storage explodes for any reasonable sized filesystem and any reasonable frequency of backup. I currently use rdiff-snapshot. I've been trying to decide between dirvish rdiff-backup. I read something [1] arguing in favor of dirvish, citing it's advantage of having images that are complete file systems. But dirvish does use hard links, so the issue of such a backup not being exactly 1:1 gives me some pause. I'm wondering if the archfs [2] you mentioned helps address the complete file system issue. [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/p...@lists.pdxlinux.org/msg00758.html [2] http://code.google.com/p/archfs/ John -- John Magolske http://B79.net/contact -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
John Magolske wrote: I've been trying to decide between dirvish rdiff-backup. I read something [1] arguing in favor of dirvish, citing it's advantage of having images that are complete file systems. But dirvish does use hard links, so the issue of such a backup not being exactly 1:1 gives me some pause. I'm wondering if the archfs [2] you mentioned helps address the complete file system issue. I've been a satisfied dirvish user for a couple of years now. I have two backup servers, one on site and one off site via an ssh tunnel. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
Original Message From: ron.l.john...@cox.net To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Back up routines Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:19:43 -0500 On 2009-07-28 10:08, Eric Gerlach wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:02:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote: [snip] Sure. Let's go with 1TB for $90. Now I have to make sure the client brings the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day. Try explaining to them why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them. You won't be getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure. [snip] JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup. It's about off-site backup, while being painless for the person using it. Woe is fricking me! My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13 disk packs 30 years ago. They've obviously got newer hardware now (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is still the same: bring your important data off-site every night. It's just Something You Do. s/do/used to do/ Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner these two choices: 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take it home at night; or 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it; I worry about things the disappearance of which would destroy my business. and I bet over 80% of them choose #2. They'll say The time it takes me to do that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!. The ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO. Gah!!! Computers are for automation, not manual labor. Plug it in, click an icon, and go about your business. When it's done, unplug and bring home. That's 2 minutes of actual manual labor. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer I think someone earlier on the thread hit on what I perceive to be THE important point-not backup but restore. In most instances the necessity for a restore involves lots of panic. The backup can be relatively at your leisure. IMHO I think the strategy should concentrate first on the ease and rapidity of recovery (been there done that and sometimes painfully) and then on the security of the backup and lastly on the time it takes to do the backup and potentially move it to an off-site location Larry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
AG wrote: Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure. Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. It would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway. Any recommendations please? Cheers AG Dear all Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches. The next step for me is to take each one and do some further research and make a decision. If it would be useful, I'm happy to post back once I've done so and experimented with some test data. Many thanks one and all. Best AG -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On 2009-07-27 01:40, AG wrote: [snip] Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches. The next step for me is to take each one and do some further research and make a decision. If it would be useful, I'm happy to post back once I've done so and experimented with some test data. Whatever script or method you decide on, just remember that hard drives are *dirt cheap* (as are external enclosures), and that your mother probably wouldn't mind you picking one up/dropping another off one or twice a month. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, AG wrote: Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches. The next step for me is to take each one and do some further research and make a decision. Nobody mentioned Unison? I've been using it for backups for last two years. It is well-documented and simple. Girish. -- Girish Kulkarni - Allahabad, India - athene.org.in/girish -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Monday 27 July 2009 09:59:15 Girish Kulkarni wrote: On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, AG wrote: Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches. The next step for me is to take each one and do some further research and make a decision. Nobody mentioned Unison? I've been using it for backups for last two years. It is well-documented and simple. I was wondering the same thing myself. Since this is a home environment, I'm not concerned with backing up the state of the system. I'm only concerned with saving my data - documents, pictures, email, etc. I have a small server, a portable hard drive, my laptop and my desktop. I keep a copy of my data on all four, synced via Unison. My server and desktop are Linux, my laptop runs Windows (company machine, no choice) and Unison runs on both and syncs them seamlessly. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-07-27 01:40, AG wrote: [snip] Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches. The next step for me is to take each one and do some further research and make a decision. If it would be useful, I'm happy to post back once I've done so and experimented with some test data. Whatever script or method you decide on, just remember that hard drives are *dirt cheap* (as are external enclosures), and that your mother probably wouldn't mind you picking one up/dropping another off one or twice a month. Thanks for the sage advice, but given that she died over a decade ago, that might prove difficult. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100 AG computing.acco...@googlemail.com wrote: Hello AG, Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an Unsatisfactory, IMO. Any back up should be made to a medium that can be removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different part of the building. My favourite for this is JungleDisk. It stores your files on Amazon's S3, and as a backup program it's half decent. It's not free/libre/open-source, but it's cheap (US$20), and you get free upgrades for life. Oh, and S3 storage is cheap. $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download. I'm backing up about 150MB per day one place for about US$3/month. Cheers, -- Eric Gerlach, Network Administrator Federation of Students University of Waterloo p: (519) 888-4567 x36329 e: egerl...@feds.uwaterloo.ca -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On 2009-07-27 16:55, Eric Gerlach wrote: On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100 AG computing.acco...@googlemail.com wrote: Hello AG, Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an Unsatisfactory, IMO. Any back up should be made to a medium that can be removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different part of the building. My favourite for this is JungleDisk. It stores your files on Amazon's S3, and as a backup program it's half decent. It's not free/libre/open-source, but it's cheap (US$20), and you get free upgrades for life. Oh, and S3 storage is cheap. $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download. I'm backing up about 150MB per day one place for about US$3/month. You've not read about such on-line businesses accidentally deleting user files, not actually backing up data, changing direction, or going out of business? For 150MB, go buy some thumb drives. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Back up routines
Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure. Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. It would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway. Any recommendations please? Cheers AG -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100 AG computing.acco...@googlemail.com wrote: Hello AG, Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an Unsatisfactory, IMO. Any back up should be made to a medium that can be removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different part of the building. I back up to two set of DVDs, of different makes, and keep one copy at home, away from the computer in the shed, and one at somebody else's house. I keep a copy of his backup for him in return. Why different makes of disk? If one proves to be from a faulty batch, the other make is, hopefully, not similarly afflicted. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent What will you do when the gas taps turn? The Gasman Cometh - Crass signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Back up routines
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009, AG wrote: Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure. Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. It would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway. I have been using rsync with a usb 320 Gb drive to back up 3 flavors of linux. So far no problems, -- Bob Holtzman AF9D 8760 0CFA F95A 6C77 E125 BF90 580F 8D54 9279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
Hi, AG skrev: Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. I know it is considered insufficient, as another poster wrote, but I use rdiff-backup to backup my home directory in a manner similar to what you describe, and I am pleased so far. Running it is just a one line one command, and restoring to the last backup is simple, as a complete copy of the last backup is available in uncompressed format on the backup disk. It would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway. It only backs up what has been modified, and stores previous versions, or diffs to previous versions, in compressed format. The homepage http://rdiff-backup.nongnu.org/ also mentions some graphical front ends that may be useful, but I have not tried any of them. But, of course, what they call an off-site backup solution would be better. I have just, so far, been too lazy. Regards / johan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
RE: Back up routines
AG wrote: recommendations for a backup routine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_backup_software Or, roll your own with rsync, tar/gzip, etc., and your scripting language of choice (I use Perl). HTH, David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On 7/26/09 11:48 AM, AG wrote: Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure. It won't help with accidental deletions in /home, either. Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. It would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway. Any recommendations please? There are 10M ways to backup. A lot of the decision process has to do with cost. I use amanda cron jobs every other day, and write to tape (expensive, not real fast, but very reliable). But I hear amanda will do disk now. I like amanda because it's been around long enough to get the bugs out, it's free, and it writes with tar or dump -- plain old *nix utilities, so things are recoverable by hand if worst comes to worst. Backuppc and Backula (sp?) are also well respected. Rsync can do a good job, too. Also all free. You might want to consider whether or not you want to keep old versions of things around, in case you change your mind about a mod. And if you do want to keep them, how long? That can get more complicated, but it can be well worth the trouble. And expense. And if files have been deleted on the master, do you want the BU system to delete from the backup as well? And one more thing, be sure to verify what been copied. An unverified backup isn't a backup. Usually costs nothing but time and wear on hardware. -- Glenn English g...@slsware.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
Brad Rogers wrote: On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100 AG computing.acco...@googlemail.com wrote: Hello AG, Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an Unsatisfactory, IMO. Any back up should be made to a medium that can be removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different part of the building. I back up to two set of DVDs, of different makes, and keep one copy at home, away from the computer in the shed, and one at somebody else's house. I keep a copy of his backup for him in return. Why different makes of disk? If one proves to be from a faulty batch, the other make is, hopefully, not similarly afflicted. Brad Thanks for your thoughts. I am a home user with a small 3 workstation LAN. The IDE HDD that I am thinking of using as the back-up target is physically separate from my machine (in an enclosure connected with a USB cable from my machine). I could back up to DVDs, but given my machine's dubious relationship with my DVDCDROM drive (see my previous posts on this theme) that seems like the less reliable option. Cheers AG
Re: Back up routines
Hello List Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sun, 26 Jul 2009, AG wrote: Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure. Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. It would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway. I have been using rsync with a usb 320 Gb drive to back up 3 flavors of linux. So far no problems, backup2l combined with rsync is great too. Jerome -- Jerome BENOIT jgmbenoit_at_mailsnare_dot_net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:48:50 +0100 AG computing.acco...@googlemail.com wrote: Hello AG, Thanks for your thoughts. You're welcome. I am a home user with a small 3 workstation LAN. The IDE HDD that I Pretty much the same here. There's several years worth of family history data I'd rather not lose, hence my back up strategy. am thinking of using as the back-up target is physically separate from my machine (in an enclosure connected with a USB cable from my That still puts it in the same room, I suspect. At least you can disconnect it, though. machine). I could back up to DVDs, but given my machine's dubious relationship with my DVDCDROM drive (see my previous posts on this theme) that seems like the less reliable option. I don't recall reading that, but under the same circumstances, i...@d be inclined to agree with your assessment. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent Well I don't want you to think I'm being obscene Fish - The Damned signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Back up routines
On 2009-07-26 12:48, AG wrote: Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure. Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. It would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway. Any recommendations please? A cron job implies that the external drive must be constantly attached to the computer, which leaves it vulnerable to electrical surges. Thus, when I'm ready to do a backup, I power-up/plug in the USB drive and manually run a script. http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson/backup.files.sh.txt Since I purposefully keep most already-compressed files in their own directories, I exclude them from the tar bzip2 commands, and then simply tar those directories. After that, umount and unplug. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:51:31 +0200 Johan Grönqvist johan.gronqv...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, AG skrev: Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. I know it is considered insufficient, as another poster wrote, but I use rdiff-backup to backup my home directory in a manner similar to what you describe, and I am pleased so far. I do the same, with rdiff-backup and rsnapshot, a similar tool. I use an external USB drive, which I usually keep in a different, albeit nearby, building, and an old headless system, which is in a different state (I'm backing up a laptop, and I travel between the two locations relatively frequently). Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Back up routines
Original Message From: g...@slsware.com To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Back up routines Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:01:00 -0600 On 7/26/09 11:48 AM, AG wrote: Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure. It won't help with accidental deletions in /home, either. Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. It would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway. Any recommendations please? There are 10M ways to backup. A lot of the decision process has to do with cost. I use amanda cron jobs every other day, and write to tape (expensive, not real fast, but very reliable). But I hear amanda will do disk now. I like amanda because it's been around long enough to get the bugs out, it's free, and it writes with tar or dump -- plain old *nix utilities, so things are recoverable by hand if worst comes to worst. Backuppc and Backula (sp?) are also well respected. Rsync can do a good job, too. Also all free. You might want to consider whether or not you want to keep old versions of things around, in case you change your mind about a mod. And if you do want to keep them, how long? That can get more complicated, but it can be well worth the trouble. And expense. And if files have been deleted on the master, do you want the BU system to delete from the backup as well? And one more thing, be sure to verify what been copied. An unverified backup isn't a backup. Usually costs nothing but time and wear on hardware. -- Glenn English g...@slsware.com I use backuppc for both incrementals and fulls. It also backs up my wife's win** machine Larry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
