Re: Back up routines

[Alex Samad]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:19:36PM -0400, Scott Gifford wrote:
> Ron Johnson  writes:
> 
[snip]
> 
> Perfectly true in theory, but in practice very few small businesses
> and nonprofits I'm worked with do this.  If an organization is large
> enough that there is an IT person to assign this responsibility to,
> it's workable, but in a small organization where IT is done by
> contractors, random staffers, or the owner/executive director, nobody
> really thinks much about the computers as long as they work, and
> routine maintenance like this falls through the cracks.
> 
> Anything that can do secure backups automatically is a good idea IMO.
friend of mine who looks after a few business has setup a rdiff server
offsite to the business and rdiff-backups across the internet, charges
them a small fee.  Can get a physical access to the backup data for easy
restore.

see as his business is contracted todo the backup restore seems okay.

he has a few a adsl connections and using raid5 (or raid6).  there could
be more redundance but for the cost if fits most companys needs

> 
> Scott.
> 
> 

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Re: Back up routines

[Rob Owens]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 06:48:17PM +0100, AG wrote:
> Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home  
> directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through  
> pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of  
> options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic 
> HDD-failure.
>
> Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that  
> is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just  
> leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It would  
> be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB.  It  
> would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed  
> between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps  
> that is the default anyway.
>
> Any recommendations please?
>
I've used BackupPC extensively, and I find it to be excellent.  I've used
it at home and in a business, backing up both Linux and Windows machines.

At home I backup up my stuff locally, and back up my parents' and sister's
computers remotely over the internet (using rsync over ssh).  My father
also has BackupPC running, and he backs up his stuff locally and mine
remotely.  Why bother backing up locally if it's backed up remotely?
Because it's much quicker to restore from a local backup.

At work I was backing up in a similar fashion, one office in the US and one
in the UK.  I had a real emergency once:  11 GB of data got accidentally
deleted from a file server.  I had it restored in 15 minutes.

BackupPC isn't simple, but it's not terribly difficult.  It just requires
reading some docs.  

Advantages:  

Backups are automatic -- no human intervention required once it's
configured.
Backups can be done remotely, over the internet.
Your data is controlled by *you*, not a 3rd party.
Files are pooled and compressed, so when backing up the same file multiple
times, the file is only stored once.

Disadvantages:

?
There probably are some, but I haven't experienced anything major in 2-3
years of using it.

-Rob


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Re: Back up routines

[Joseph Rawson]

On Tuesday 28 July 2009 05:35:20 Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 08:51:31PM +0200, Johan Grönqvist
>
> wrote:
> > The homepage  also
> > mentions some graphical front ends that may be useful, but
> > I have not tried any of them.
>
> I am in the process of packaging "archfs", a FUSE-powered
> user filesystem tool that provides a view onto an
> rdiff-backup.

I had no idea such a program existed.  I've been wanting to add such 
functionality to my dosbox frontend, but haven't had the time to fiddle with 
it myself.  It's cool to learn something new every day! :)

Do you have an estimate of when it will appear in sid?


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Re: Back up routines

[Ben Olive]

I haven't had a chance to try it out but http://www.boxbackup.org/
looks like a pretty cool solution.

--Ben

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> I trust Amazon more than a HD.  You're free not to, but I've seen more
>> HDs fail than I have Amazons.
>
> I'm not sure the HD's reliability is much of an issue: you wouldn't want
> to backup to a single drive which you bring back home at night,
> otherwise, during the day you're at the mercy of a big accident.
> So instead you want to have 2 drives (e.g. one at home and one at the
> office) which you swap every once in a while (e.g. daily).  You'll also
> want to replace those drives every once in a while (e.g. every 3 years,
> or whenever the backup size grows past the capacity of the drive).
>
>> Uploading to a remote server is more automated (client doesn't even
>> have to *think* about it), and for low amounts of data, is cheaper.
>
> Agreed.  Luckily I have a machine of mine off-site, so I still don't
> have to rely on Amazon.  Actually, most people have a machine off-site:
> one at home and one at the office, so they're both mutually off-site.
>
>
>        Stefan
>
>
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Re: Back up routines

[Stefan Monnier]

> I trust Amazon more than a HD.  You're free not to, but I've seen more
> HDs fail than I have Amazons.

I'm not sure the HD's reliability is much of an issue: you wouldn't want
to backup to a single drive which you bring back home at night,
otherwise, during the day you're at the mercy of a big accident.
So instead you want to have 2 drives (e.g. one at home and one at the
office) which you swap every once in a while (e.g. daily).  You'll also
want to replace those drives every once in a while (e.g. every 3 years,
or whenever the backup size grows past the capacity of the drive).

> Uploading to a remote server is more automated (client doesn't even
> have to *think* about it), and for low amounts of data, is cheaper.

Agreed.  Luckily I have a machine of mine off-site, so I still don't
have to rely on Amazon.  Actually, most people have a machine off-site:
one at home and one at the office, so they're both mutually off-site.


Stefan


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Re: Back up routines

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:08:24 -0400
Eric Gerlach  wrote:

Hello Eric,

> 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it;

Ron's already pointed out that, at the drop of a hat, Amazon can just
delete your account.

If relying on one 3rd party for backups you should worry.  Probably a
lot.

For example, I can do backups and store the data in two places easily.
I'll wager that Amazon don't have one set of your data in (say) New
York, and another set in (for argument's sake) Toronto.  There'll just
be the one set.  If that site goes offline, your backups are as much use
as a chocolate teapot.

In any case, the *real* cost issue WRT to backing data up is not how
much the storage costs, but how much it would cost to _manually_
re-enter all the data.  This will, inevitably, be a lot more than the
cost of an HD or two.

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/ _)radnever immediately apparent"

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Re: Back up routines

[owens]

>
>
>
> Original Message 
>From: ron.l.john...@cox.net
>To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>Subject: Re: Back up routines
>Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:19:43 -0500
>
>>On 2009-07-28 10:08, Eric Gerlach wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:02:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>>> On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>>> Sure.  Let's go with 1TB for $90.  Now I have to make sure the
>client brings
>>>>> the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day.  Try
>explaining to them
>>>>> why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them. 
>You won't be
>>>>> getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure.
>>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>> JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup.  It's about off-site
>backup, while
>>>>> being painless for the person using it.
>>>> Woe is fricking me!
>>>>
>>>> My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home
>13"
>>>> disk packs 30 years ago.  They've obviously got newer hardware
>now
>>>> (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task
>is
>>>> still the same: bring your important data off-site every night.
>>>>
>>>> It's just Something You Do.
>>> 
>>> s/do/used to do/
>>> 
>>> Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner
>these two
>>> choices:
>>> 
>>> 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program,
>then take it
>>> home at night; or
>>> 
>>> 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it;
>>
>>I worry about things the disappearance of which would destroy my 
>>business.
>>
>>> and I bet over 80% of them choose #2.  They'll say "The time it
>takes me to do
>>> that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole
>month!".  The
>>> ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO.
>>
>>Gah!!!
>>
>>Computers are for automation, not manual labor.  Plug it in, click 
>>an icon, and go about your business.  When it's done, unplug and 
>>bring home.
>>
>>That's 2 minutes of actual manual labor.
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>Scooty Puff, Sr
>>The Doom-Bringer
>>
I think someone earlier on the thread hit on what I perceive to be
THE important point-not backup but restore.  In most instances the
necessity for a restore involves lots of panic.  The backup can be
relatively "at your leisure".  IMHO I think the strategy should
concentrate first on the ease and rapidity of recovery (been there
done that and sometimes painfully) and then on the security of the
backup and lastly on the time it takes to do the backup and
potentially move it to an off-site location
Larry
>>
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listmas...@lists.debian.org
>>
>>



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Re: Back up routines

[Mark Neyhart]

John Magolske wrote:
> I've been trying to decide between dirvish & rdiff-backup. I read
> something [1] arguing in favor of dirvish, citing it's advantage of
> having images that are complete file systems. But dirvish does use
> hard links, so the issue of such a backup not being exactly 1:1 gives
> me some pause. I'm wondering if the archfs [2] you mentioned helps
> address the "complete file system" issue.
> 

I've been a satisfied dirvish user for a couple of years now.  I have
two backup servers, one on site and one off site via an ssh tunnel.


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Re: Back up routines

[John Magolske]

* Jon Dowland  [090728 06:42]:
> From my experience, I would discount anything which relies
> on hard link trees. That means a lot of rsync-based
> solutions, including rsnapshot. Apart from not being a 1:1
> backup (you lose hard links!), the filesystem metadata
> storage explodes for any reasonable sized filesystem and
> any reasonable frequency of backup. I currently use
> rdiff-snapshot.

I've been trying to decide between dirvish & rdiff-backup. I read
something [1] arguing in favor of dirvish, citing it's advantage of
having images that are complete file systems. But dirvish does use
hard links, so the issue of such a backup not being exactly 1:1 gives
me some pause. I'm wondering if the archfs [2] you mentioned helps
address the "complete file system" issue.

[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/p...@lists.pdxlinux.org/msg00758.html
[2] http://code.google.com/p/archfs/

John

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Re: Back up routines

[Scott Gifford]

Ron Johnson  writes:

> On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:
> [snip]
>> Sure.  Let's go with 1TB for $90.  Now I have to make sure the
>> client brings
>> the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day.  Try explaining to them
>> why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them.  You won't be
>> getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure.
>>
> [snip]
>> JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup.  It's about off-site
>> backup, while
>> being painless for the person using it.
>
> Woe is fricking me!
>
> My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13"
> disk packs 30 years ago.  They've obviously got newer hardware now
> (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is
> still the same: bring your important data off-site every night.
>
> It's just Something You Do.

Perfectly true in theory, but in practice very few small businesses
and nonprofits I'm worked with do this.  If an organization is large
enough that there is an IT person to assign this responsibility to,
it's workable, but in a small organization where IT is done by
contractors, random staffers, or the owner/executive director, nobody
really thinks much about the computers as long as they work, and
routine maintenance like this falls through the cracks.

Anything that can do secure backups automatically is a good idea IMO.

Scott.


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Re: Back up routines

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-07-28 11:07, Eric Gerlach wrote:
[snip]


(client doesn't even have to *think* about it)


That's the part that really pisses me off: willful ignorance.

--
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The Doom-Bringer


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Re: Back up routines

[David Baron]

I am toying with livedrive which is an ecomomical storage site. It caters to 
the windows crowd but, partly at my nagging, set up ftp access. I now nag them 
for rsync :-)

The problem with ALL of these is upload speeds. The large backup needs the 
rockest solidest connection to simply get done. Curlftpfs, mirrordir and other 
ftp clients will hangup not-so-nicely on disconnects and IO errors. Upload 
speeds are capped by many providers to like 50kbs (or worse) and a wav file or 
large database will simply not make it over. Start the backup, go home, find 
the thing hung in the morning. Cannot just set it and forget it.

So, sneakernet with an el-cheapo portable HD ends up being the only way.


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Re: Back up routines

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Jon Dowland wrote:
> any reasonable frequency of backup. I currently use
> rdiff-snapshot.  I personally think there is still a lot of
> space for new solutions (yet to see a good git-based one)

s/rdiff-snapshot/rdiff-backup 

Johannes


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Re: Back up routines

[Eric Gerlach]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:17:04AM -0400, Jeff Soules wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric
> > 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take 
> > it
> > home at night; or
> >
> > 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it;
> >
> > and I bet over 80% of them choose #2.  They'll say "The time it takes me to 
> > do
> > that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!".  
> > The
> > ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO.
> 
> It depends on the amount of data you have.  If you're a decent-sized
> small business with a lot of databases to back up and you're pushing
> 10 GB nightly, then it's more like $33/mo, assuming you never actually
> have to use the backup.  If you have to *use* the backup, your restore
> process will be constrained to the speed of your internet connection,
> which could result in some very significant downtime which may or may
> not be acceptable for your business.
> 
> Each way has advantages and disadvantages; there isn't a
> one-size-fits-all for this.

For sure.  But I don't have anyone pushing 10 GB nightly :-)  It's just that
people were telling me to go buy a hard drive for 150 MB/day, and I wanted to
point out that for many people that's ridiculous.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:19:43AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> I worry about things the disappearance of which would destroy my
> business.

I trust Amazon more than a HD.  You're free not to, but I've seen more HDs fail
than I have Amazons.

> Gah!!!
> 
> Computers are for automation, not manual labor.  Plug it in, click
> an icon, and go about your business.  When it's done, unplug and
> bring home.
> 
> That's 2 minutes of actual manual labor.

Which, if you multiply it out, is more than $3.

(2 minutes * $20/hour * ~20 days/month) / (60 minutes/hour) = $13.33

Uploading to a remote server is more automated (client doesn't even have to
*think* about it), and for low amounts of data, is cheaper.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 05:29:56PM +0200, Siggy Brentrup wrote:
> I guess you're right in what small business owners are doing, but IMHO
> they are not valuing confidentiality of their data high enough.  I
> don't know which encryption standards are in use, but I doubt most
> people even know about http://www.schneier.com/essay-198.html by Bruce
> Schneier, let alone understand what he is saying.

For the record, JungleDisk uses AES-256.  My bigger worry with one client is
that they refuse to use good passwords, despite my best advice.

Oh, and I bet if I pointed out to them that the NSA might be able to get at
their data, they'd tell me "If the NSA wants it they can have it!"

It's mostly sales/accounting data.  They probably wouldn't even care if their
competitors got it. :-)

> I say this being hit by a complete HW and data loss to a fire in '97.
> I prefer keeping my data off-site and off-net.

If off-net is a concern, then don't use Amazon.  It's not a concern for me or
any of my clients.

Cheers,

-- 
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Federation of Students
University of Waterloo
p: (519) 888-4567 x36329
e: egerl...@feds.uwaterloo.ca


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Re: Back up routines

[Siggy Brentrup]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:08 -0400, Eric Gerlach wrote:

> Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner
> these two choices:
 
> 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program,
> then take it home at night; or
 
> 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it;

> and I bet over 80% of them choose #2.  They'll say "The time it
> takes me to do that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone
> for the whole month!".  The ones who choose #1 don't value their
> time enough, IMO.

I guess you're right in what small business owners are doing, but IMHO
they are not valuing confidentiality of their data high enough.  I
don't know which encryption standards are in use, but I doubt most
people even know about http://www.schneier.com/essay-198.html by Bruce
Schneier, let alone understand what he is saying.

I say this being hit by a complete HW and data loss to a fire in '97.
I prefer keeping my data off-site and off-net.

my 2¢
  Siggy
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Re: Back up routines

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-07-28 10:08, Eric Gerlach wrote:

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:02:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:

On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:
[snip]

Sure.  Let's go with 1TB for $90.  Now I have to make sure the client brings
the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day.  Try explaining to them
why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them.  You won't be
getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure.


[snip]

JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup.  It's about off-site backup, while
being painless for the person using it.

Woe is fricking me!

My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13"
disk packs 30 years ago.  They've obviously got newer hardware now
(tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is
still the same: bring your important data off-site every night.

It's just Something You Do.


s/do/used to do/

Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner these two
choices:

1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take it
home at night; or

2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it;


I worry about things the disappearance of which would destroy my 
business.



and I bet over 80% of them choose #2.  They'll say "The time it takes me to do
that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!".  The
ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO.


Gah!!!

Computers are for automation, not manual labor.  Plug it in, click 
an icon, and go about your business.  When it's done, unplug and 
bring home.


That's 2 minutes of actual manual labor.


--
Scooty Puff, Sr
The Doom-Bringer


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Re: Back up routines

[Jeff Soules]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric
Gerlach wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:02:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>
>> My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13"
>> disk packs 30 years ago.  They've obviously got newer hardware now
>> (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is
>> still the same: bring your important data off-site every night.
>>
>> It's just Something You Do.
>
> s/do/used to do/
>
> Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner these two
> choices:
>
> 1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take it
> home at night; or
>
> 2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it;
>
> and I bet over 80% of them choose #2.  They'll say "The time it takes me to do
> that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!".  The
> ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO.

It depends on the amount of data you have.  If you're a decent-sized
small business with a lot of databases to back up and you're pushing
10 GB nightly, then it's more like $33/mo, assuming you never actually
have to use the backup.  If you have to *use* the backup, your restore
process will be constrained to the speed of your internet connection,
which could result in some very significant downtime which may or may
not be acceptable for your business.

Each way has advantages and disadvantages; there isn't a
one-size-fits-all for this.


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Re: Back up routines

[Eric Gerlach]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:02:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >Sure.  Let's go with 1TB for $90.  Now I have to make sure the client brings
> >the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day.  Try explaining to them
> >why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them.  You won't be
> >getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure.
> >
> [snip]
> >
> >JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup.  It's about off-site backup, while
> >being painless for the person using it.
> 
> Woe is fricking me!
> 
> My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13"
> disk packs 30 years ago.  They've obviously got newer hardware now
> (tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is
> still the same: bring your important data off-site every night.
> 
> It's just Something You Do.

s/do/used to do/

Sure, your grandfather did it, but give any small-business owner these two
choices:

1. Every day, bring this drive in, plug it in, run this program, then take it
home at night; or

2. Pay Amazon $3/mo and don't worry about it;

and I bet over 80% of them choose #2.  They'll say "The time it takes me to do
that for one week is worth more than $3, let alone for the whole month!".  The
ones who choose #1 don't value their time enough, IMO.

Cheers,

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Re: Back up routines

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-07-28 09:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:
[snip]


Sure.  Let's go with 1TB for $90.  Now I have to make sure the client brings
the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day.  Try explaining to them
why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them.  You won't be
getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure.


[snip]


JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup.  It's about off-site backup, while
being painless for the person using it.


Woe is fricking me!

My granfather and his accountant were alternately bringing home 13" 
disk packs 30 years ago.  They've obviously got newer hardware now 
(tape drives), and he's passed on, but the blazingly simple task is 
still the same: bring your important data off-site every night.


It's just Something You Do.

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Re: Back up routines

[Eric Gerlach]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 02:21:21AM -0400, Scott Gifford wrote:
> Paul E Condon  writes:
> 
> > On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:
> [...]
>  >> Oh, and S3 storage is cheap.  $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Renting is easier, but I wonder how long the web based services will
> > be in business.
> 
> S3 is run by Amazon, and Amazon has been around for longer than most
> hard drives I've had.  Even if Amazon went bankrupt every 5 years, it
> would still have an MTBF comparable to most hard drives.  :-)

Yeah, I'm hardly worried that Amazon is going to go out of business.  And if
JungleDisk does, well I have their open-source decrypter downloaded for just
such an occasion.  Given that they were bought by RackSpace, though, I'm not
worried about that either.

If you want to TNO, go ahead, but in the real world I don't need that.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 01:32:36AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 2009-07-28 01:21, Scott Gifford wrote:
> >Paul E Condon  writes:
> >
> >>On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:
> >[...]
> >Oh, and S3 storage is cheap.  $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download.
> 
> A 1TB HDD from NewEgg is $0.085/GB once, and you own it, and
> $0.00/GB to upload/download.  2TB drives are the "outrageous" price
> of $0.115/GB.

Sure.  Let's go with 1TB for $90.  Now I have to make sure the client brings
the drive in, backs up, and takes it home every day.  Try explaining to them
why that isn't worth the $3/mo that that Amazon charges them.  You won't be
getting paid for that consulting advice, that's for sure.

Also, at $3/mo, that's almost three years before I've paid the equivalent
amount of a 1 TB drive.  Plus, you have to spend the money up front, and with
an opportunity cost of 10%, that extends the repayment time to 35 months.
That's near the end of the warranty.  I'm not going to keep vital backups on a
HD that old.

JungleDisk isn't about HD failure backup.  It's about off-site backup, while
being painless for the person using it.

Cheers,

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Re: Back up routines

[Jon Dowland]

As noted by others, you will receive many different
recommendations for pieces of software. IIWY, I'd ask the
following questions

 a) how easy/reliable is performing a *restore*? 
not how easy is it to perform the backup.

This ancient website was originally setup as a marketing
tool for a product that (I believe) no longer exists.
 However, it lists seven core
principles of backups (in a light hearted and amusing way)
that you should compare any backup solution against.

From my experience, I would discount anything which relies
on hard link trees. That means a lot of rsync-based
solutions, including rsnapshot. Apart from not being a 1:1
backup (you lose hard links!), the filesystem metadata
storage explodes for any reasonable sized filesystem and
any reasonable frequency of backup. I currently use
rdiff-snapshot.  I personally think there is still a lot of
space for new solutions (yet to see a good git-based one)

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Re: Back up routines

[Jon Dowland]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 08:51:31PM +0200, Johan Grönqvist
wrote:
> The homepage  also
> mentions some graphical front ends that may be useful, but
> I have not tried any of them.

I am in the process of packaging "archfs", a FUSE-powered
user filesystem tool that provides a view onto an
rdiff-backup.


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Re: Back up routines

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-07-28 01:21, Scott Gifford wrote:

Paul E Condon  writes:


On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:

[...]
Oh, and S3 storage is cheap.  $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download.


A 1TB HDD from NewEgg is $0.085/GB once, and you own it, and 
$0.00/GB to upload/download.  2TB drives are the "outrageous" price 
of $0.115/GB.


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Re: Back up routines

[Scott Gifford]

Paul E Condon  writes:

> On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:
[...]
 >> Oh, and S3 storage is cheap.  $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download.

[...]

> Renting is easier, but I wonder how long the web based services will
> be in business.

S3 is run by Amazon, and Amazon has been around for longer than most
hard drives I've had.  Even if Amazon went bankrupt every 5 years, it
would still have an MTBF comparable to most hard drives.  :-)

Scott.


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Re: Back up routines

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-07-28 00:59, Paul E Condon wrote:
[snip]


I was in a local computer store near Boulder, CO a few days ago. They
are selling IDE disk drives, any size, for $0.25/GB. SATA are even


What insane world do we live in where $0.25/GB is considered 3x too 
expensive?


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Re: Back up routines

[Paul E Condon]

On 2009-07-27_17:55:18, Eric Gerlach wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100
> > AG  wrote:
> > 
> > Hello AG,
> > 
> > > Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine
> > > that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can
> > > just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It
> > > would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an
> > 
> > Unsatisfactory, IMO.  Any back up should be made to a medium that can be
> > removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different
> > part of the building.
> 
> My favourite for this is JungleDisk.  It stores your files on Amazon's S3, and
> as a backup program it's half decent.  It's not free/libre/open-source, but
> it's cheap (US$20), and you get free upgrades for life.
> 
> Oh, and S3 storage is cheap.  $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download.
> 
> I'm backing up about 150MB per day one place for about US$3/month.

I was in a local computer store near Boulder, CO a few days ago. They
are selling IDE disk drives, any size, for $0.25/GB. SATA are even
cheaper. So, after just 2mo it would be cheaper to buy than to
rent. Renting is easier, but I wonder how long the web based services
will be in business. 


-- 
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pecon...@mesanetworks.net


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Re: Back up routines

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-07-27 16:55, Eric Gerlach wrote:

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100
AG  wrote:

Hello AG,


Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine
that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can
just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It
would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an

Unsatisfactory, IMO.  Any back up should be made to a medium that can be
removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different
part of the building.


My favourite for this is JungleDisk.  It stores your files on Amazon's S3, and
as a backup program it's half decent.  It's not free/libre/open-source, but
it's cheap (US$20), and you get free upgrades for life.

Oh, and S3 storage is cheap.  $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download.

I'm backing up about 150MB per day one place for about US$3/month.


You've not read about such on-line businesses accidentally deleting 
user files, not actually backing up data, "changing direction", or 
going out of business?


For 150MB, go buy some thumb drives.

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Re: Back up routines

[Eric Gerlach]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 07:12:49PM +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100
> AG  wrote:
> 
> Hello AG,
> 
> > Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine
> > that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can
> > just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It
> > would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an
> 
> Unsatisfactory, IMO.  Any back up should be made to a medium that can be
> removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different
> part of the building.

My favourite for this is JungleDisk.  It stores your files on Amazon's S3, and
as a backup program it's half decent.  It's not free/libre/open-source, but
it's cheap (US$20), and you get free upgrades for life.

Oh, and S3 storage is cheap.  $0.15/GB/mo, plus $0.10/GB upload/download.

I'm backing up about 150MB per day one place for about US$3/month.

Cheers,

-- 
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Federation of Students
University of Waterloo
p: (519) 888-4567 x36329
e: egerl...@feds.uwaterloo.ca


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Re: Back up routines

[AG]

Ron Johnson wrote:

On 2009-07-27 01:40, AG wrote:
[snip]


Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches.  The 
next step for me is to take each one and do some further research and 
make a decision.


If it would be useful, I'm happy to post back once I've done so and 
experimented with some test data.




Whatever script or method you decide on, just remember that hard 
drives are *dirt cheap* (as are external enclosures), and that your 
mother probably wouldn't mind you picking one up/dropping another off 
one or twice a month.


Thanks for the sage advice, but given that she died over a decade ago, 
that might prove difficult. :)



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Re: Back up routines

[Daniel D Jones]

On Monday 27 July 2009 09:59:15 Girish Kulkarni wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, AG wrote:
> > Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches.  The
> > next step for me is to take each one and do some further research
> > and make a decision.
>
> Nobody mentioned Unison?  I've been using it for backups for last two
> years.  It is well-documented and simple.

I was wondering the same thing myself.  Since this is a home environment, I'm 
not concerned with backing up the state of the system.  I'm only concerned 
with saving my data - documents, pictures, email, etc.  I have a small server, 
a portable hard drive, my laptop and my desktop.  I keep a copy of my data on 
all four, synced via Unison.  My server and desktop are Linux, my laptop runs 
Windows (company machine, no choice) and Unison runs on both and syncs them 
seamlessly.



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Re: Back up routines

[Girish Kulkarni]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, AG wrote:

Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches.  The
next step for me is to take each one and do some further research
and make a decision.


Nobody mentioned Unison?  I've been using it for backups for last two
years.  It is well-documented and simple.

Girish.

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Re: Back up routines

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-07-27 01:40, AG wrote:
[snip]


Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches.  The 
next step for me is to take each one and do some further research and 
make a decision.


If it would be useful, I'm happy to post back once I've done so and 
experimented with some test data.




Whatever script or method you decide on, just remember that hard 
drives are *dirt cheap* (as are external enclosures), and that your 
mother probably wouldn't mind you picking one up/dropping another 
off one or twice a month.


--
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The Doom-Bringer


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Re: Back up routines

[AG]

AG wrote:
Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home 
directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system 
through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most 
reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a 
catastrophic HDD-failure.


Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine 
that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can 
just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It 
would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an 
USB.  It would be best if the application was able to tell what has 
changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but 
perhaps that is the default anyway.


Any recommendations please?

Cheers

AG


Dear all

Thanks for the many suggestions of applications and approaches.  The 
next step for me is to take each one and do some further research and 
make a decision.


If it would be useful, I'm happy to post back once I've done so and 
experimented with some test data.


Many thanks one and all.

Best

AG


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Re: Back up routines

[owens]

>
>
>
> Original Message 
>From: g...@slsware.com
>To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>Subject: Re: Back up routines
>Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:01:00 -0600
>
>>On 7/26/09 11:48 AM, AG wrote:
>>
>>> Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home
>>> directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system
>through
>>> pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most
>reliable of
>>> options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic
>HDD-failure.
>>
>>It won't help with accidental deletions in /home, either.
>>
>>> Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine
>that
>>> is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can
>just
>>> leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It
>would be
>>> backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB.
>It
>>> would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed
>>> between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but
>perhaps
>>> that is the default anyway.
>>>
>>> Any recommendations please?
>>
>>There are 10M ways to backup. A lot of the decision process has to
>do 
>>with cost.
>>
>>I use amanda cron jobs every other day, and write to tape
>(expensive, 
>>not real fast, but very reliable). But I hear amanda will do disk
>now. I 
>>like amanda because it's been around long enough to get the bugs
>out, 
>>it's free, and it writes with tar or dump -- plain old *nix
>utilities, 
>>so things are recoverable by hand if worst comes to worst.
>>
>>Backuppc and Backula (sp?) are also well respected. Rsync can do a
>good 
>>job, too. Also all free.
>>
>>You might want to consider whether or not you want to keep old
>versions 
>>of things around, in case you change your mind about a mod. And if
>you 
>>do want to keep them, how long? That can get more complicated, but
>it 
>>can be well worth the trouble. And expense.
>>
>>And if files have been deleted on the master, do you want the BU
>system 
>>to delete from the backup as well?
>>
>>And one more thing, be sure to verify what been copied. An
>unverified 
>>backup isn't a backup. Usually costs nothing but time and wear on
>hardware.
>>
>>-- 
>>Glenn English
>>g...@slsware.com
>>
I use backuppc for both incrementals and fulls.  It also backs up my
wife's win*&* machine
Larry
>>
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listmas...@lists.debian.org
>>
>>



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Re: Back up routines

[Celejar]

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:51:31 +0200
Johan Grönqvist  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> AG skrev:
> > Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that 
> > is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just 
> > leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It would 
> > be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. 
> 
> 
> I know it is considered insufficient, as another poster wrote, but I use 
> rdiff-backup to backup my home directory in a manner similar to what you 
> describe, and I am pleased so far.

I do the same, with rdiff-backup and rsnapshot, a similar tool.  I use
an external USB drive, which I usually keep in a different, albeit
nearby, building, and an old headless system, which is in a different
state (I'm backing up a laptop, and I travel between the two locations
relatively frequently).

Celejar
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Re: Back up routines

[Ron Johnson]

On 2009-07-26 12:48, AG wrote:
Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home 
directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through 
pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of 
options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure.


Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that 
is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just 
leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It would 
be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB.  It 
would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed 
between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps 
that is the default anyway.


Any recommendations please?


A cron job implies that the external drive must be constantly 
attached to the computer, which leaves it vulnerable to electrical 
surges.


Thus, when I'm ready to do a backup, I power-up/plug in the USB 
drive and manually run a script.


http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson/backup.files.sh.txt

Since I purposefully keep most already-compressed files in their own 
directories, I exclude them from the "tar bzip2" commands, and then 
simply tar those directories.


After that, umount and unplug.

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Re: Back up routines

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:48:50 +0100
AG  wrote:

Hello AG,

> Thanks for your thoughts.

You're welcome.

> I am a home user with a small 3 workstation LAN.  The IDE HDD that I

Pretty much the same here.  There's several years worth of family
history data I'd rather not lose, hence my back up strategy.

> am thinking of using as the back-up target is physically separate from
> my machine (in an enclosure connected with a USB cable from my

That still puts it in the same room, I suspect.  At least you can
disconnect it, though.

> machine).  I could back up to DVDs, but given my machine's dubious
> relationship with my DVDCDROM drive (see my previous posts on this
> theme) that seems like the less reliable option. 

I don't recall reading that, but under the same circumstances, i...@d be
inclined to agree with your assessment.

-- 
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/ _)radnever immediately apparent"

Well I don't want you to think I'm being obscene
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Re: Back up routines

[Jerome BENOIT]

Hello List

Robert Holtzman wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009, AG wrote:

Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home 
directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system 
through pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most 
reliable of options and certainly won't help in the case of a 
catastrophic HDD-failure.


Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine 
that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can 
just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It 
would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an 
USB.  It would be best if the application was able to tell what has 
changed between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but 
perhaps that is the default anyway.


I have been using rsync with a usb 320 Gb drive to back up 3 flavors of 
linux. So far no problems,




backup2l combined with rsync is great too.

Jerome


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Re: Back up routines

[AG]

Brad Rogers wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100
AG  wrote:

Hello AG,

  

Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine
that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can
just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It
would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an



Unsatisfactory, IMO.  Any back up should be made to a medium that can be
removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different
part of the building.

I back up to two set of DVDs, of different makes, and keep one copy at
home, away from the computer in the shed, and one at somebody else's
house.  I keep a copy of his backup for him in return.

Why different makes of disk?  If one proves to be from a faulty batch,
the other make is, hopefully, not similarly afflicted.

  

Brad

Thanks for your thoughts. 

I am a home user with a small 3 workstation LAN.  The IDE HDD that I am 
thinking of using as the back-up target is physically separate from my 
machine (in an enclosure connected with a USB cable from my machine).  I 
could back up to DVDs, but given my machine's dubious relationship with 
my DVDCDROM drive (see my previous posts on this theme) that seems like 
the less reliable option. 


Cheers

AG

Re: Back up routines

[ghe]

On 7/26/09 11:48 AM, AG wrote:


Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home
directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through
pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of
options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure.


It won't help with accidental deletions in /home, either.


Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that
is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just
leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week? It would be
backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. It
would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed
between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps
that is the default anyway.

Any recommendations please?


There are 10M ways to backup. A lot of the decision process has to do 
with cost.


I use amanda cron jobs every other day, and write to tape (expensive, 
not real fast, but very reliable). But I hear amanda will do disk now. I 
like amanda because it's been around long enough to get the bugs out, 
it's free, and it writes with tar or dump -- plain old *nix utilities, 
so things are recoverable by hand if worst comes to worst.


Backuppc and Backula (sp?) are also well respected. Rsync can do a good 
job, too. Also all free.


You might want to consider whether or not you want to keep old versions 
of things around, in case you change your mind about a mod. And if you 
do want to keep them, how long? That can get more complicated, but it 
can be well worth the trouble. And expense.


And if files have been deleted on the master, do you want the BU system 
to delete from the backup as well?


And one more thing, be sure to verify what been copied. An unverified 
backup isn't a backup. Usually costs nothing but time and wear on hardware.


--
Glenn English
g...@slsware.com


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RE: Back up routines

[David Christensen]

AG wrote:
> recommendations for a backup routine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_backup_software

Or, roll your own with rsync, tar/gzip, etc., and your scripting
language of choice (I use Perl).


HTH,

David


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Re: Back up routines

[Johan Grönqvist]

Hi,

AG skrev:
Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that 
is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just 
leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It would 
be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB. 



I know it is considered insufficient, as another poster wrote, but I use 
rdiff-backup to backup my home directory in a manner similar to what you 
describe, and I am pleased so far.


Running it is just a one line one command, and restoring to the last 
backup is simple, as a complete copy of the last backup is available in 
uncompressed format on the backup disk.


It 
would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed 
between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps 
that is the default anyway.


It only backs up what has been modified, and stores previous versions, 
or diffs to previous versions, in compressed format.


The homepage  also mentions some 
graphical front ends that may be useful, but I have not tried any of them.


But, of course, what they call an off-site backup solution would be 
better. I have just, so far, been too lazy.




Regards

/ johan


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Re: Back up routines

[Robert Holtzman]

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009, AG wrote:

Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home directory as 
some measure of protection against hosing my system through pebkac-type 
activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of options and 
certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure.


Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that is 
safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just leave to 
run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It would be backing up 
to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB.  It would be best if 
the application was able to tell what has changed between backup sessions to 
back up only that which is new, but perhaps that is the default anyway.


I have been using rsync with a usb 320 Gb drive to back up 3 flavors of 
linux. So far no problems,


--
Bob Holtzman
AF9D 8760 0CFA F95A 6C77  E125 BF90 580F 8D54 9279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"


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Re: Back up routines

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:48:17 +0100
AG  wrote:

Hello AG,

> Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine
> that is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can
> just leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It
> would be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an

Unsatisfactory, IMO.  Any back up should be made to a medium that can be
removed from the computer and, at the very least, stored in a different
part of the building.

I back up to two set of DVDs, of different makes, and keep one copy at
home, away from the computer in the shed, and one at somebody else's
house.  I keep a copy of his backup for him in return.

Why different makes of disk?  If one proves to be from a faulty batch,
the other make is, hopefully, not similarly afflicted.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"

What will you do when the gas taps turn?
The Gasman Cometh - Crass


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Back up routines

[AG]

Generally I have relied on the separate partitioning of my /home 
directory as some measure of protection against hosing my system through 
pebkac-type activities, but this is not necessarily the most reliable of 
options and certainly won't help in the case of a catastrophic HDD-failure.


Thus, can I please have a few recommendations for a backup routine that 
is safe for dummies (i.e. me) and is low maintenance that I can just 
leave to run according to a cron job once (or twice) a week?  It would 
be backing up to my former IDE HDD (now in an enclosure) via an USB.  It 
would be best if the application was able to tell what has changed 
between backup sessions to back up only that which is new, but perhaps 
that is the default anyway.


Any recommendations please?

Cheers

AG


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