subject:"Debian User List"

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 4:24 p.m., Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 12:25:52PM -0400, Polyna-Maude
> Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>> Actually, the message you sent would have been sent only to yourself in
>> the reply if I wouldn't have took the time to add the mailing list as CC.
> 
> OK, let's explore why.
> 
> According to your User-Agent header, you are using the MUA Thunderbird.
> 
> According to the description you just wrote about the behaviour of
> replying, it would NOT have replied to the list, but directly to Tomas.
> 
> That's because you have hit Thunderbird's "Reply" button (or keyboard
> shortcut, or menu entry), which is defined as "reply to sender".
> 
> Thunderbird has a separate "reply to list" function. By default, you can
> see it in the list of actions if you right-click a list mail, or if you
> hit the keys CTRL + Shift + L. I *think* the "Reply all" button that
> normally appears turns into a "reply list" button, when the mail in
> question is a list message.
> 
The "reply list" button was exactly in my face.
Just discovered it's existence.

I'll now use this one.

> You need to be using the separate "reply to list" function to send a
> reply to the correct place.
> 
> In my opinion, it's awkward that there's a separate function and you
> have to remember to use it in some circumstances but not others. That's
> the default behaviour in my chosen MUA too (neomutt). However, I
> reconfigured neomutt so I had a single button to hit that always does
> the right thing. Perhaps, Thunderbird can be similarly configured to be
> more convenient in this regard. I don't know.
> 
> There's one more caveat worth mentioning here, and it's to do with mail
> server stuff, rather than client. In some circumstances, such as when
I need to take some time to configure my own mail server as I'm now
using one rented on shared hosting.

I need a week-end off to do so. Been planning this for the last month.

But I'll probably use something like procmail and fetchmail, or another
list of similar tools.

I have one message where user on the list gave me pretty good hints on
how to get something functional.
But this take time to setup.

> somebody hits "reply all" or CCs you on a mail you get via a list
> anyway, you can get two copies of the mail. Since only one copy came via
> the list, only one copy has the List-* headers, and so Thunderbird's
> "reply to list" function will only work for the list copy. Worse, some
> mail server back-ends (for example Gmail, Exchange) de-duplicated copies
> of mail. Therefore, the one copy you might have (despite having been
> sent two) may not be the list copy either. If that affects you, all I
> can suggest is looking for a better mail provider. But, we can all help
> each other by not CCing people when replying to them on-list. Which is
> why I have that in my mail signature.
> 
> 
Thanks

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-06 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Brian wrote:
> Have I missed out? Is there a mind reading package in Debian 11.

  apt-file search telepathy | wc -l

reports thousands of occurences.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly


On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 12:25:52PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

Actually, the message you sent would have been sent only to yourself in
the reply if I wouldn't have took the time to add the mailing list as CC.


OK, let's explore why.

According to your User-Agent header, you are using the MUA Thunderbird.

According to the description you just wrote about the behaviour of
replying, it would NOT have replied to the list, but directly to Tomas.

That's because you have hit Thunderbird's "Reply" button (or keyboard
shortcut, or menu entry), which is defined as "reply to sender".

Thunderbird has a separate "reply to list" function. By default, you can
see it in the list of actions if you right-click a list mail, or if you
hit the keys CTRL + Shift + L. I *think* the "Reply all" button that
normally appears turns into a "reply list" button, when the mail in
question is a list message.

You need to be using the separate "reply to list" function to send a
reply to the correct place.

In my opinion, it's awkward that there's a separate function and you
have to remember to use it in some circumstances but not others. That's
the default behaviour in my chosen MUA too (neomutt). However, I
reconfigured neomutt so I had a single button to hit that always does
the right thing. Perhaps, Thunderbird can be similarly configured to be
more convenient in this regard. I don't know.

There's one more caveat worth mentioning here, and it's to do with mail
server stuff, rather than client. In some circumstances, such as when
somebody hits "reply all" or CCs you on a mail you get via a list
anyway, you can get two copies of the mail. Since only one copy came via
the list, only one copy has the List-* headers, and so Thunderbird's
"reply to list" function will only work for the list copy. Worse, some
mail server back-ends (for example Gmail, Exchange) de-duplicated copies
of mail. Therefore, the one copy you might have (despite having been
sent two) may not be the list copy either. If that affects you, all I
can suggest is looking for a better mail provider. But, we can all help
each other by not CCing people when replying to them on-list. Which is
why I have that in my mail signature.


--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly


On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 12:39:59PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

No it's not the opposite problem.
If the list become moderated or at least controlled in some way then it
would prevent outsider (people not registered on the mailing list) from
send mail onto the list.


Except, we do control the list, by banning people. Banned people cannot
send mail to the list.


Now even if you ban someone, it just need that they create another
address and send a message for it to appear on the list.


Yes that is true. But it is not what is happening.

What is happening (well, what happened once... I don't know if it's more
common) is that someone who cannot post to the list, got their content
onto the list, by an innocent bystander (you) accidentally quoting their
off-list, private mail, onto the list.
 
Moderating the list would not prevent that, because you would presumably

be subscribed and able to post.  (If by "moderating" you mean "only list
subscribers can post to the list").


Rendering banning pretty much useless for preventing people from writing
stupidity.


Despite the fact that yes, people can circumvent address-based bans, the
current approach is working remarkably effectively, IMHO.

We *do* moderate some Debian lists. I am a volunteer moderator for one
of them (although, I haven't participated in moderation for months.)


--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-06 Thread Brian

On Fri 06 Aug 2021 at 12:31:01 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[...]

> If you can read my mind then you'd know that it's not what I was thinking.
> 
> If you can't read my mind, then maybe it's better to keep quiet than to
> say stuff you don't have a damn clue about.

Have I missed out? Is there a mind reading package in Debian 11.

> On my dumb GUI mail client, I don't see the whole header unless I do ask
> to do so.
> 
> I didn't see no where something saying that it was needed to use a
> specific mail client or take the time to interpret the headers.
> 
> So I'll go with a hint.
> 
> If someone bothers you, then simply use the "block" possibility and send
> their mail to the SPAM folder of your mail client.

Ah. An arguing with me is futile advocate.

[...]

> > Of course, a banned person can try to sneak in by cc-ing to the list.
> > A group reply is then all it's needed.
> > 
> > "Apply some judgement" seems, as always, to be the right thing.
> > 
> > Cheers
> >  - t

mutt shows me this is the post you responded to. You made no comment
on it but went off on a tangent.

-- 
Brian.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 9:43 a.m., Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:54:53AM -0400, Polyna-Maude
> Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>> Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note of
>> who's "on the list" and "who's not". So if someone reply to me regarding
>> a message that was posted on the list, there's pretty good chance that
>> I'll reply "on the list".
> 
> It's not obvious to me, but I take the time to be careful about replying
> to the right place. I make use of decent mail tools configured properly
> to aid me in this, because to do otherwise is a serious breach of
> netiquette.
> 
> In short: if the mail was delivered from the list, it will have the
> correct List-* headers, and a decent, properly-configured MUA will do
> the right thing.
> 
> If your MUA doesn't help you with this, feel free to ask for advice
> about decent MUAs, right here on this list!
> 
>> This list is "unmoderated" and if better access control is needed then
>> maybe it would be time to change how it works. For example, limiting
>> posting to people registered would be a pretty good idea.
> 
> This is more or less the opposite problem to the one we are discussing,
> namely, people who *cannot* post to the list, who are not doing so.
> Moderation isn't going to make any difference to this case.
> 
No it's not the opposite problem.
If the list become moderated or at least controlled in some way then it
would prevent outsider (people not registered on the mailing list) from
send mail onto the list.

Now even if you ban someone, it just need that they create another
address and send a message for it to appear on the list.

Rendering banning pretty much useless for preventing people from writing
stupidity. And that is mostly the reason for banning people, based on
what they write (preventing people from getting the mailing list send to
them is irrelevant as they'll be able to look on the web).
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 8:20 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 07:33:04AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
>> On 2021-08-06 at 07:28, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:54:53AM -0400, Polyna-Maude
>>> Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>>>
 Hi,
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
 Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note
 of who's "on the list" and "who's not" [...]
>>>
>>> Easy: if the message comes from the list, reply goes to the list. 
>>> Your MUA should be able to help you with that, if it's worth its 
>>> salt.
>>
>> I get enough accidental direct replies (proportionally speaking, anyway)
>> that I don't consider this practical. There are too many times when a
>> reply that was sent privately *should* have gone via the list, and so
>> the reply to that should go in turn back to the list.
> 
> Definitely. I don't get it perfectly every time, either. I only took
> issue with Polina's stance, which could be read as "it's not even
> worth trying".
> 
If you can read my mind then you'd know that it's not what I was thinking.

If you can't read my mind, then maybe it's better to keep quiet than to
say stuff you don't have a damn clue about.

On my dumb GUI mail client, I don't see the whole header unless I do ask
to do so.

I didn't see no where something saying that it was needed to use a
specific mail client or take the time to interpret the headers.

So I'll go with a hint.

If someone bothers you, then simply use the "block" possibility and send
their mail to the SPAM folder of your mail client.

Like you already said, if it's worth the salt, it will do so.

>> (Which in turn happens because of the whole Reply-To-header argument
>> thing, and everything around it which I don't want to spark off again
>> now...)
> 
> :-)
> 
>> That said, there are definitely times when it's clear whether a direct
>> reply was unintentional vs. not, and outside of special circumstances
>> the ones intentionally sent off-list should be kept that way without
>> mutual agreement.
> 
> Of course, a banned person can try to sneak in by cc-ing to the list.
> A group reply is then all it's needed.
> 
> "Apply some judgement" seems, as always, to be the right thing.
> 
> Cheers
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 7:28 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:54:53AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>> Hi,
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note of
>> who's "on the list" and "who's not" [...]
> 
> Easy: if the message comes from the list, reply goes to the list.
> Your MUA should be able to help you with that, if it's worth its
> salt.
> 
Actually, the message you sent would have been sent only to yourself in
the reply if I wouldn't have took the time to add the mailing list as CC.

> [...]
> 
>> We are far from the percentage of SPAM a usual mailbox may get...
> 
> This is because there are "real people" working hard at it. For free.
> 
> (May I use the opportunity to say a big THANK YOU to them?)
> 
I will also add a big THANK YOU to all of them too, and to all the
fellow user on this mailing list who help out making this community
vibrant. (And much more friendly than other distribution / commercial OS).

> Cheers
>  - t
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly


On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:54:53AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note of
who's "on the list" and "who's not". So if someone reply to me regarding
a message that was posted on the list, there's pretty good chance that
I'll reply "on the list".


It's not obvious to me, but I take the time to be careful about replying
to the right place. I make use of decent mail tools configured properly
to aid me in this, because to do otherwise is a serious breach of
netiquette.

In short: if the mail was delivered from the list, it will have the
correct List-* headers, and a decent, properly-configured MUA will do
the right thing.

If your MUA doesn't help you with this, feel free to ask for advice
about decent MUAs, right here on this list!


This list is "unmoderated" and if better access control is needed then
maybe it would be time to change how it works. For example, limiting
posting to people registered would be a pretty good idea.


This is more or less the opposite problem to the one we are discussing,
namely, people who *cannot* post to the list, who are not doing so.
Moderation isn't going to make any difference to this case.


--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-06 Thread tomas

On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 07:33:04AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2021-08-06 at 07:28, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:54:53AM -0400, Polyna-Maude
> > Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi,
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> >> Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note
> >> of who's "on the list" and "who's not" [...]
> > 
> > Easy: if the message comes from the list, reply goes to the list. 
> > Your MUA should be able to help you with that, if it's worth its 
> > salt.
> 
> I get enough accidental direct replies (proportionally speaking, anyway)
> that I don't consider this practical. There are too many times when a
> reply that was sent privately *should* have gone via the list, and so
> the reply to that should go in turn back to the list.

Definitely. I don't get it perfectly every time, either. I only took
issue with Polina's stance, which could be read as "it's not even
worth trying".

> (Which in turn happens because of the whole Reply-To-header argument
> thing, and everything around it which I don't want to spark off again
> now...)

:-)

> That said, there are definitely times when it's clear whether a direct
> reply was unintentional vs. not, and outside of special circumstances
> the ones intentionally sent off-list should be kept that way without
> mutual agreement.

Of course, a banned person can try to sneak in by cc-ing to the list.
A group reply is then all it's needed.

"Apply some judgement" seems, as always, to be the right thing.

Cheers
 - t



signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-06 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

Jonathan Dowland wrote towards Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside:
> > I've seen that they
> > sometimes reply privately to people's posts on the list.
> > [...] you accidentally replied to their mail, back to the list.

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside:
> Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note of
> who's "on the list" and "who's not". So if someone reply to me regarding
> a message that was posted on the list, there's pretty good chance that
> I'll reply "on the list".

Well, if it's about the replies to
  Subject: Re: OFFLIST: Gnome desktop removal messed up machine
then it seems to have been Gunnar Gervin who got the private mail and
replied to the list.
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/threads.html
Compare the Cc: headers in
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00225.html
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00226.html
and in the reply by Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00237.html


As for who is subscribed, i look for the word "LDOSUBSCRIBER" in the
mail header "X-Spam-Status:". If i don't see it with a thread starting mail,
then i add a Cc with the mail address of the thread starter.

Some regular participants of this list are not subscribed by their sender
mail address, though. So their mails show no "LDOSUBSCRIBER". Some mails
show a hint in their signature:
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/08/msg00303.html
Hopefully i don't use too many Cc by mistake.


Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside:
> It would also solve the problem of people using the list to spam about
> dating site or offering different services.

Spam is really rare here. You mentioned "wanna meet" offers, recently.
Are you sure they came via the list and not from a sender who harvested
your mail address from the list and maybe uses a fake "From:" header ?
The chain of "Received:" headers can tell where the mail entered the
somewhat trustworthy part of the road towards your mailbox.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-06 Thread The Wanderer

On 2021-08-06 at 07:28, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:54:53AM -0400, Polyna-Maude
> Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note
>> of who's "on the list" and "who's not" [...]
> 
> Easy: if the message comes from the list, reply goes to the list. 
> Your MUA should be able to help you with that, if it's worth its 
> salt.

I get enough accidental direct replies (proportionally speaking, anyway)
that I don't consider this practical. There are too many times when a
reply that was sent privately *should* have gone via the list, and so
the reply to that should go in turn back to the list.

(Which in turn happens because of the whole Reply-To-header argument
thing, and everything around it which I don't want to spark off again
now...)

That said, there are definitely times when it's clear whether a direct
reply was unintentional vs. not, and outside of special circumstances
the ones intentionally sent off-list should be kept that way without
mutual agreement.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-06 Thread tomas

On Fri, Aug 06, 2021 at 06:54:53AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Hi,

[...]

> Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note of
> who's "on the list" and "who's not" [...]

Easy: if the message comes from the list, reply goes to the list.
Your MUA should be able to help you with that, if it's worth its
salt.

[...]

> We are far from the percentage of SPAM a usual mailbox may get...

This is because there are "real people" working hard at it. For free.

(May I use the opportunity to say a big THANK YOU to them?)

Cheers
 - t

signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

Hi,

On 2021-08-06 5:25 a.m., Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 09:21:11PM -0400, Polyna-Maude
> Racicot-Summerside wrote:
>> I don't see how it would be possible to ban a user on a open mailing
>> list that anyone can write to (without being registered).
> 
> It is possible, although pretty rare. One person who was banned from
> this list a long time ago remains banned today, but I've seen that they
> sometimes reply privately to people's posts on the list. In fact, this
> person did so, to *you*, and I only found out about it because you
> accidentally replied to their mail, back to the list.
> 
Maybe this is obvious for you, but for myself, I don't take note of
who's "on the list" and "who's not". So if someone reply to me regarding
a message that was posted on the list, there's pretty good chance that
I'll reply "on the list".

This list is "unmoderated" and if better access control is needed then
maybe it would be time to change how it works. For example, limiting
posting to people registered would be a pretty good idea.

It would also solve the problem of people using the list to spam about
dating site or offering different services.

But is this really a big problem ?

Pretty sure it's more time consuming to write this message than to deal
with it. This list has more than 30 thousands subscriber and only a
handful of banning, at most.

We are far from the percentage of SPAM a usual mailbox may get...

> So, as a general warning for list subscribers: if you get private,
> off-list mail replies to list messages from people, one reason might be
> because they are banned from posting to the list directly. In either
> case, don't quote their mail back onto the list.
> 
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development

OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly


Hi Andrew,

Greg wrote a useful mail in another thread
() and Dan replied to suggest that some
of his points might be worth folding into your monthly mail-out. (In
case you haven't seen that thread.)


Best,

--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly


On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 09:21:11PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

I don't see how it would be possible to ban a user on a open mailing
list that anyone can write to (without being registered).


It is possible, although pretty rare. One person who was banned from
this list a long time ago remains banned today, but I've seen that they
sometimes reply privately to people's posts on the list. In fact, this
person did so, to *you*, and I only found out about it because you
accidentally replied to their mail, back to the list.

So, as a general warning for list subscribers: if you get private,
off-list mail replies to list messages from people, one reason might be
because they are banned from posting to the list directly. In either
case, don't quote their mail back onto the list.


--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-05 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

Hi Brian,

Some of the people who have received temporary bans have then come back and
been relatively well behaved thereafter. As a member of the Debian Community 
team, I'm certain that the listmasters have banned people for short periods 
in the past. Rather than being judgmental or jumping to conclusions: consider 
that it might not be advisable to identify individuals immediately on 
request?

People on this list notice that I post the FAQ every month: it is probably
also worthwhile to say that the list is covered by the overall Debian
Code of Conduct - https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct - which specifically
mentions temporary and permanent bans as a possible measure.

This is also true for #debian support channels on OFTC and Libera.Chat, for
example.

Hope this helps, all the best as ever,

Andy Cater

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-05 Thread tomas

On Thu, Aug 05, 2021 at 07:35:55PM +0100, Brian wrote:

[...]

> > Listmasters' discretion is always the final arbiter.
> 
> Indeed. They apply the lump hammer.

Always assuming the best ;-/

Cheers
 - t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-05 Thread Brian

On Wed 04 Aug 2021 at 23:30:45 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 11:43:26PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Wed 04 Aug 2021 at 22:01:18 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > 
> > > Problems?
> > > =
> > > 
> > > Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
> > > Debian Community Team .
> > > 
> > > Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
> > > behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
> > 
> > I have never known a tempory ban being applied to a user. Is this a
> > recent change in Listmaster policy?
> > 
> > -- 
> > Brian.
> > 
> 
> I _think_ there have been instances of someone being banned for a week or a 
> month - I think indefinite bans were called out as being inappropriate in
> one case. I'd have to defer to those with more patience to dig through
> Debian mailing list archives.

Basically - you do not know. Why say what you did, then?

> I do remember one instance - a very long time ago - where someone was
> banned after two posts or thereabouts - a Finnish neo-Nazi, I think,
> who abused the lists with political ranting.

Fair enough. I'll not ask for a link to the decision.
 
> Listmasters' discretion is always the final arbiter.

Indeed. They apply the lump hammer.

-- 
Brian.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-04 Thread Cindy Sue Causey

On 8/4/21, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 2021-08-04 6:43 p.m., Brian wrote:
>> On Wed 04 Aug 2021 at 22:01:18 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>
>>> Problems?
>>> =
>>>
>>> Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
>>> Debian Community Team .
>>>
>>> Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
>>> behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
>>
>> I have never known a tempory ban being applied to a user. Is this a
>> recent change in Listmaster policy?
>>
> I don't see how it would be possible to ban a user on a open mailing
> list that anyone can write to (without being registered).
>
> If so, maybe there should be a try on banning the person who doesn't
> stop sending message regarding "Wanna meet you"...

If they're typing to you from North Georgia (USA), the signs are out
there that it's going to be a non-problem very, very soon. If the
group does finally get nabbed, it's going to be a major headline
maker.

Very soon. :)

As to the other, I've seen someone get banned. It fell under that
observation about this being an open list. The person kept coming
back.. repeatedly. It finally stopped. Had to have been a major
intervention of some kind to get to that cease point.

About a week ago, I read the banned person asking for something on one
of the lists. That implies that all involved worked things out
amicably. Finally. Thank you all for that! It was a distressing moment
in things Debian, and now it's not. :)

As an afterthought.. If someone ever writes off list and says they're
me, it's not. I'm actually shy in one-on-one instances. If it ever
happens, please consider taking whatever legal means necessary to help
that not happen to someone else.

It HAS happened. There's a suspended Twitter account because I asked
Twitter to do so. It had my pictures, my name, my "bio" information.
And a town in West Virginia. Knowing the group here like I do, I'd say
the account was coordinating illegal sales up there in the North.

Fun times. :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA
* runs with birdseed *

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-04 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside

Hi,

On 2021-08-04 6:43 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Wed 04 Aug 2021 at 22:01:18 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> 
>> Problems?
>> =
>>
>> Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
>> Debian Community Team .
>>
>> Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
>> behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
> 
> I have never known a tempory ban being applied to a user. Is this a
> recent change in Listmaster policy?
> 
I don't see how it would be possible to ban a user on a open mailing
list that anyone can write to (without being registered).

If so, maybe there should be a try on banning the person who doesn't
stop sending message regarding "Wanna meet you"...

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-04 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 11:43:26PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Wed 04 Aug 2021 at 22:01:18 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> 
> > Problems?
> > =
> > 
> > Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
> > Debian Community Team .
> > 
> > Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
> > behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.
> 
> I have never known a tempory ban being applied to a user. Is this a
> recent change in Listmaster policy?
> 
> -- 
> Brian.
> 

I _think_ there have been instances of someone being banned for a week or a 
month - I think indefinite bans were called out as being inappropriate in
one case. I'd have to defer to those with more patience to dig through
Debian mailing list archives.

I do remember one instance - a very long time ago - where someone was
banned after two posts or thereabouts - a Finnish neo-Nazi, I think,
who abused the lists with political ranting.

Listmasters' discretion is always the final arbiter.

Andy Cater

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-04 Thread Brian

On Wed 04 Aug 2021 at 22:01:18 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> Problems?
> =
> 
> Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
> Debian Community Team .
> 
> Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
> behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

I have never known a tempory ban being applied to a user. Is this a
recent change in Listmaster policy?

-- 
Brian.

debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-08-04 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct

 https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
 https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on 
  this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* How to ask questions and read replies.

1. PLEASE Use a subject line that means something - "I need help" is probably 
not useful. "I'm having problems with the Debian 10.10 amd64 DVD image" or
similar is better - something that sets out one problem / a single  issue.

2. Try and write down what steps you have taken / where you have found 
information. Show what you have actually done as much as what you think you 
have done. If it helps, write down things you do / commands you run as you do
them.

3. People may ask you to run commands to establish what is happening / what
hardware you have. Provide the output if you can: if you can't provide the
output - show what commands you ran and what output (if any) was the result.
Likewise with logs. It may be appropriate to ask what extra information is
needed / may help others solve the problem and then to try to give the extra 
information requested..

4. The mailing list threads replies. Don't break the thread / raise other
issues needlessly . It is as easy to begin a spearate email - one per issue.

5. If several people ask similar questions, it may be possible to summarise
lots of information in one post.

6. Give as much useful information as you can. If you are unsure, it is fine
to ask what other information might be necessary. We cannot all read minds: we
need some clues.

7. If all other things don't work: stop, write down one thing you want to 
make clearer and make that clear. Slow down and think - sometimes a 
deliberate approach is necessary.

8. If the problem has produced a long thread it is very useful to provide a
subject title periodically with [SUMMARY] or [SOLVED] outlining how the 
problem was eventually solved or showing what issues remain outstanding.

* Unfortunately, the people on the Debian mailing lists / IRC channels cannot
give good advice for every Debian-derived distribution. Each distribution
changes different things and we will not have all the answers. Debian
derived distributions are off topic in debian-user. Each one should have
its own support channels and processes to raise issues. Debian is not normally
the place though if you can reproduce the problem in Debian we will be better
able to help. 

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time 
  is of the form: 

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"
  
Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially 
cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to 
ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this
may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect" 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Spam and unsolicited commercial email that doesn't belong on the list
=

Debian does have comparatively strong spam filters on the mailing lists:
listmasters will remove emails that are reported as spam. The easiest
way to report spam is by using the web interface to Debian mailing lists
below https://lists.debian.org

If you quote spam email in a reply, you may end up making the spam filters
less effective. If you respond to it on list, then it becomes part of the
l

debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-07-01 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct

 https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
 https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on 
  this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time 
  is of the form: 

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"
  
Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially 
cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to 
ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this
may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect" 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Spam and unsolicited commercial email that doesn't belong on the list
=

Debian does have comparatively strong spam filters on the mailing lists:
listmasters will remove emails that are reported as spam. The easiest
way to report spam is by using the web interface to Debian mailing lists
below https://lists.debian.org

If you quote spam email in a reply, you may end up making the spam filters
less effective. If you respond to it on list, then it becomes part of the
list conversations forever. Replying to it with angry messages won't get 
back to the originators and does not help the ongoing fight against spam. 

See also: https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/ListMaster/ListArchiveSpam

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: Slightly off-topic: anybody know of a way to keep one's Debian User List posts from failing DMARC?

2021-06-09 Thread Andy Smith

Hello,

On Wed, Jun 09, 2021 at 09:58:13AM -0700, James H. H. Lampert wrote:
> I'm told that the Debian List Server doesn't rewrite "From"
> headers for DMARC-enabled senders, and neither does it do anything
> else to handle DMARC-enabled senders.

Correct, so the SPF test will always fail as the list pretends to be
your domain when it sends out mail from you. But the DKIM test can
still pass, because the Debian list software does not alter the body
of your mail or any of the headers you are likely to sign with DKIM.

And indeed, your email that I am replying to was a DKIM pass and
thus would be a DMARC pass as only one of the two is needed.

Many mailing lists modify the body, e.g. to prepend tags to the
subject and/or to append a footer with list information. These
mailing lists can never pass DKIM because the mail content is
signed. Their only option if they care about a DMARC pass is to
rewrite the sender address so that their mail comes from their own
domain, then they can make SPF and DKIM pass and alter the content
as they like.

You will see many DMARC failures from such mailing lists.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Slightly off-topic: anybody know of a way to keep one's Debian User List posts from failing DMARC?

2021-06-09 Thread deloptes

James H. H. Lampert wrote:

> Please excuse the off-topic post, but I'm hoping this has come up with
> others here:
> 
> I've been tasked with implementing DMARC on our domain. And I'm told
> that the Debian List Server doesn't rewrite "From" headers for
> DMARC-enabled senders, and neither does it do anything else to handle
> DMARC-enabled senders.

Couple of years ago, when I was working with a Telco they implemented DMARC
and were thinking it will be soon very strict, but it turned out many
implemented different policies and as Dan Ritter said, it is one important
factor.
Back then (2016) I asked the Telco people (as part of the BA) how many
responses (mails with statistics) they would expect from the peers - they
said they would expect that the major players would do DMARC - respectively
we setup a DB based on this assumption ... well the moment we turned the
collection on - the DB exploded because it was tausends of domains already
implementing DMARK with SPF and sending back the statistics.

Re: Slightly off-topic: anybody know of a way to keep one's Debian User List posts from failing DMARC?

2021-06-09 Thread Dan Ritter

James H. H. Lampert wrote: 
> Please excuse the off-topic post, but I'm hoping this has come up with
> others here:
> 
> I've been tasked with implementing DMARC on our domain. And I'm told that
> the Debian List Server doesn't rewrite "From" headers for DMARC-enabled
> senders, and neither does it do anything else to handle DMARC-enabled
> senders.

DMARC is one of many factors your mail servers need to consider
when deciding whether to accept, bounce or silently drop a piece
of mail.

It is perfectly reasonable to set DMARC as a strong but not
overwhelming factor, and then to write allow lists based on,
for example:

List-Id: 

which is a pretty good representation that this is Debian mail.

So good, in fact, that RFC2919
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2919

suggests it.

-dsr-

Slightly off-topic: anybody know of a way to keep one's Debian User List posts from failing DMARC?

2021-06-09 Thread James H. H. Lampert

Please excuse the off-topic post, but I'm hoping this has come up with 
others here:


I've been tasked with implementing DMARC on our domain. And I'm told 
that the Debian List Server doesn't rewrite "From" headers for 
DMARC-enabled senders, and neither does it do anything else to handle 
DMARC-enabled senders.


--
James H. H. Lampert
Touchtone Corporation

debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-06-01 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct

 https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
 https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of
  the form: 

  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"
  
Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially 
cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to 
ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this
may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect" 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Spam and unsolicited commercial email that doesn't belong on the list
=

Debian does have comparatively strong spam filters on the mailing lists:
listmasters will remove emails that are reported as spam. The easiest
way to report spam is by using the web interface to Debian mailing lists
below https://lists.debian.org

If you quote spam email in a reply, you may end up making the spam filters
less effective. If you respond to it on list, then it becomes part of the
list conversations forever. Replying to it with angry messages won't get 
back to the originators and does not help the ongoing fight against spam. 

See also: https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/ListMaster/ListArchiveSpam

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-05-08 Thread Jonathan Dowland


On Sat, May 01, 2021 at 03:17:39AM -0700, Weaver wrote:

I can recall days when I'd get 300 mails or more, but that was when the
attitude was it was a list for Debian users, and not just a list for
Debian issues.


So can I. The list has definitely got quieter in the last 20 years.


Perhaps the prissy and politically correct simply don't have it right?


I don't think you can attribute the list die-off to the introduction of
the CoC.  You could equally surmise that the kind of behaviour that the
CoC forbids -- which used to be rampant -- has driven people away.  But
the list die-off started long before the CoC was introduced. I suspect
it's simply that more and more users go elsewhere to places like Reddit,
rather than dusty old mailing lists.


--
Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-05-02 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Sb, 01 mai 21, 03:17:39, Weaver wrote:
> 
> `This is a fairly busy mailing list' - Oh no, it isn't!
> It used to be.
> I can recall days when I'd get 300 mails or more, but that was when the
> attitude was it was a list for Debian users, and not just a list for
> Debian issues.
> At times, there would be 70% of threads on topic, while the rest were
> wildly off, but there's one aspect everybody seems to have forgotten:
> conversation/communication builds community.
> And this list is somewhat dry on that quality these days.
> I think we can attribute the list drying up like a river in drought to
> that.

Though personally I enjoy the occasional off-topic discussion I also 
recall the complaints from other subscribers about the (wildly!) 
off-topic mega-threads.

> Perhaps the prissy and politically correct simply don't have it right?
> Cheers!

In my opinion off-topic discussions are orthogonal to that.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-05-01 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

On Sat, May 01, 2021 at 03:17:39AM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> On 01-05-2021 20:07, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
> > and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 
> > 
> > Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:
> > 
> > * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
> >   lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french 
> > 
> > * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for 
> > example,
> >   from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
> >   English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.
> > 
> > * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
> >   the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of 
> > Conduct
> > 
> >  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
> >  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
> > 
> > * This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
> >   answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
> >   others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
> >   may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.
> > 
> > * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
> >   It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
> > 
> >  * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
> >welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
> >do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
> >assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
> >Debian list.
> > 
> > * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on 
> > this
> >   list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
> > 
> > * One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time 
> > is of
> >   the form: 
> >   "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
> >Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"
> >   
> > Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived,
> > potentially cached
> > by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to
> > ensure that
> > all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may
> > only serve to
> > draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
> > 
> 
> `This is a fairly busy mailing list' - Oh no, it isn't!
> It used to be.

Absolutely: however, if you look at the Debian mailing lists as a whole, this
is one of the busier lists - hey, we can get up to four pages worth in the 
debian-user web interface.

> I can recall days when I'd get 300 mails or more, but that was when the
> attitude was it was a list for Debian users, and not just a list for
> Debian issues.

It's still a list for Debian users: not as many people use or appreciate
mailing lists as they did but, actually, they still work well - not least
because there's a searchable archive.

> At times, there would be 70% of threads on topic, while the rest were
> wildly off, but there's one aspect everybody seems to have forgotten:
> conversation/communication builds community.

Agreed. There are days when it feels as if there are only ten people here
but we are here for wider conversation and chat. Comparing this with some
of the language-specific Debian lists, it's still fairly active.

> And this list is somewhat dry on that quality these days.
> I think we can attribute the list drying up like a river in drought to
> that.
> Perhaps the prissy and politically correct simply don't have it right?
> Cheers!

Prissy/politically correct - no, I'm not sure that's right. That's one of
the reasons we do have a Debian Code of Conduct - so there's a minimum
acceptable standard on the lists and so that folk can feel welcome.
If you try to categorise Debian developers or users, you very rapidly come
across category breakers or a breadth of people you can scarcely guess at.
Debian as the universal operating system: priorities free software and our 
users - yes, but there's a space for all sorts of people behind the keyboards
and mail interface.

All best, as ever,

Andy Cater
> 
> Harry.
> -- 
> `Women fall in love with what they hear,
> men fall in love with what they see,
> that's why women wear make up and men lie'.
>

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-05-01 Thread Weaver

On 01-05-2021 20:07, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
> and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 
> 
> Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:
> 
> * The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
>   lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french 
> 
> * It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
>   from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
>   English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.
> 
> * The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
>   the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct
> 
>  https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
>  https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
> 
> * This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
>   answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
>   others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
>   may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.
> 
> * Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
>   It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.
> 
>  * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
>welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
>do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
>assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
>Debian list.
> 
> * There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
>   list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
> 
> * One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is 
> of
>   the form: 
>   "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
>Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"
>   
> Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived,
> potentially cached
> by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to
> ensure that
> all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may
> only serve to
> draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect"
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
> 
> Problems?
> =
> 
> Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
> Debian Community Team .
> 
> Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
> behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

`This is a fairly busy mailing list' - Oh no, it isn't!
It used to be.
I can recall days when I'd get 300 mails or more, but that was when the
attitude was it was a list for Debian users, and not just a list for
Debian issues.
At times, there would be 70% of threads on topic, while the rest were
wildly off, but there's one aspect everybody seems to have forgotten:
conversation/communication builds community.
And this list is somewhat dry on that quality these days.
I think we can attribute the list drying up like a river in drought to
that.
Perhaps the prissy and politically correct simply don't have it right?
Cheers!

Harry.
-- 
`Women fall in love with what they hear,
men fall in love with what they see,
that's why women wear make up and men lie'.

debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-05-01 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct

 https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
 https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of
  the form: 
  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"
  
Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially 
cached
by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to ensure 
that
all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this may only 
serve to
draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect" 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-04-01 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the
   Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct

 https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
 https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. 
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked 
  on this list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time 
  is of the form:
  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

  Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
  cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do
  to ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do
  this may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand 
  effect"
  (see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect )

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-03-01 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both the
   Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct

 https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
 https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. 
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of
  the form:
  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"

  Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially
  cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do
  to ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do
  this may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand 
  effect"
  (see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect )

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-03 Thread Eduardo M KALINOWSKI


On 02/02/2021 18:07, Brian wrote:
Users do not read email headers. Many do not even know they exist. 


That is true, but MUAs can detect the List-Unsubscribe header and offer 
a button to unsubscribe.


Even gmail, which has very particular (and wrong) opinions on how email 
should work supposedly offers this options when that header is present.



--
Q:  What's the difference between Bell Labs and the Boy Scouts of America?
A:  The Boy Scouts have adult supervision.

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-03 Thread tomas

On Tue, Feb 02, 2021 at 01:57:19PM -0800, Rey Paderna wrote:
> I think the most obvious method is to go to
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/, put your email and then
> unsubscribe.  Unfortunately this method does not work.

"Does not work" does not compute. Please, folks. Pretty please.
If you have any interest in things getting fixed, go do your
part.

Describe what "isn't working" for you. Go the extra mile. After
all, other people already went their extra 10 (or 100, or 1000)
miles /for your convenience/.

Furrfu.

Cheers
 - t

signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread Rey Paderna

I think the most obvious method is to go to 
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/, put your email and then 
unsubscribe.  Unfortunately this method does not work.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread RP


Your domain is wrong.  Should be @lists.debian.org

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread Dan Ritter

RP wrote: 
> Your domain is wrong.  Should be @lists.debian.org

Thank you, I've never been corrected so politely before.

-dsr-

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread Brian

On Tue 02 Feb 2021 at 13:14:35 -0700, Charles Curley wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Feb 2021 12:01:40 -0800
> Michael Turner  wrote:
> 
> > How do I unsubscribe?
> 
> Hmmm, is this becoming a FAQ?
> 
> In the headers of emails sent from many list servers you will find a

Users do not read email headers. Many do not even know they exist.

-- 
Brian.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread Charles Curley

On Tue, 2 Feb 2021 12:01:40 -0800
Michael Turner  wrote:

> How do I unsubscribe?

Hmmm, is this becoming a FAQ?

In the headers of emails sent from many list servers you will find a
heading something like:

List-Unsubscribe: 


Most mail readers will show you the headers with control-h.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread Brian

On Tue 02 Feb 2021 at 12:01:40 -0800, Michael Turner wrote:

>  How do I unsubscribe?

You are capable of using a search engine? Search for

  unsubscribe "debian-user"

I think Greg Wooledg has made his point.

-- 
Brian.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread tomas

On Tue, Feb 02, 2021 at 12:01:40PM -0800, Michael Turner wrote:
>  How do I unsubscribe?

Look at the headers of a mail you get from the mailing list.

Among them, there's one roughly looking like this:

  List-Unsubscribe: 


It's telling you to send a mail to

  debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org

with the subject 'unsubscribe' (without the quotes).

You'll receive a confirmation request mail. Follow the instructions.

This works for most mailing lists.

Cheers
-- tomás


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread Dan Ritter

Michael Turner wrote: 
>  How do I unsubscribe?
> 

The headers of this and every other message on the list include:

List-Id: 
List-URL: <https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/>
List-Post: <mailto:debian-user@lists.debian.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Unsubscribe: 
<mailto:debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org?subject=unsubscribe>

So you should send a message to
debian-user-requ...@list.debian.org
with the subject line
unsubscribe

-dsr-

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread Michael Turner

 How do I unsubscribe?

On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 4:49 AM Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 01, 2021 at 09:43:50PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
> > and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.
> >
> > Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:
> [...]
>
> May I suggest a few additions?  Feel free to word them how you like.
>
>  * I received some spam from the list.  What do I do with it?
>
>  * How do I unsubscribe?
>
>

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-02 Thread Greg Wooledge

On Mon, Feb 01, 2021 at 09:43:50PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
> and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 
> 
> Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:
[...]

May I suggest a few additions?  Feel free to word them how you like.

 * I received some spam from the list.  What do I do with it?

 * How do I unsubscribe?

debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-02-01 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct

 https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
 https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
  answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
  others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
  may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

* There is an FAQ on the Debian wiki derived from some questions asked on this
  list at https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

* One question that comes up on almost all Debian lists from time to time is of
  the form: 
  "I have done something wrong / included personal details in an email.
   Could you please delete my name / details / remove the mail"
  
  Practically, this is impossible: the mailing lists are archived, potentially 
  cached by Google and so on. Unfortunately, there is nothing much we can do to
  ensure that all copies anywhere on the Internet are deleted. Asking to do this
  may only serve to draw further attention - the so-called "Streisand effect" 
  see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

debian-user list info and guidelines (FAQ) - posted monthly

2021-01-31 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater

debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian users,
and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics. 

Some guidelines which may help explain how the list works:

* The language on this mailing list is English. There may be other mailing 
  lists that are language-specific for example debian-user-french 

* It is common for users to be redirected here from other lists - for example,
  from debian-project. It is also common for people to be posting here when 
  English is not their primary language. Please be considerate.

* The list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to both 
  the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct

 https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
 https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

* This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an
answer - please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so
others can benefit; private conversations don't benefit people who
may be following along on the list or reading the archives later.

* Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time.
  It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided.

 * Please try to stay on topic. Arguments for the sake of it are not
   welcome here. Partisan political / religious / cultural arguments
   do not belong here either. Debian's community is world wide; don't
   assume others will agree with your views or need to read them on a
   Debian list.

Problems?
=

Complaints about inappropriate behaviour should be referred to the
Debian Community Team .

Inappropriate behaviour on the list may lead to warnings; repeated bad
behaviour may lead to temporary or permanent bans for offenders.

Re: debian-user list information and guidelines : don't use CC mail list

2021-01-26 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Ma, 26 ian 21, 11:37:59, Robbi Nespu wrote:
> Hi hello
> 
> On 24/1/2021 3:24 am, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > The mailing list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to 
> > both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of 
> > Conduct
> > 
> > https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
> > https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
> > 
> > This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an answer - 
> > please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so others can 
> > benefit; private
> > conversations don't benefit people who may be following along on the list 
> > or reading the archives later.
> > 
> > Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. 
> > It is common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. If 
> > responding to
> > someone, be considerate of their time and effort.
> 
> I would like ask opinion on a little proposal to add new rule regrading
> using CC with mail list address.
> 
> The reason is, why the sender need to use "TO" to original sender / reply-er
> and CC the mail list, since the original sender / reply-er also subscriber
> to the same mailing list.
> 
> In another case, maybe someone not subscriber but try to help or ask for
> help directly but Debian additional CoC said "Do not quote messages that
> were sent to you by other people in private mail, unless agreed beforehand"
> 
> I prepared ASCII table for comparison matrix here[1] have a look, I could
> paste the table here since it may look broken on your email client.
> 
> What I wish is to add one more additional code of conduct which something
> like "Do not send or reply email with CC mailing list, instead please use TO
> mailing address to send message if the person you want to communicate is
> coming from mail list" (need better sentences)
> 
> Let me know what do you think about it.
> 
> [1] 
> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/RobbiNespu/ed58a5cf28560e47a8a6a3f717bdccca/raw/47a06adc566e00c9055b3c8a7b40ab70e5494f39/gistfile1.txt
 
In my understanding of the above and your table the Mailing List CoC 
already covers all your cases, so I must be misunderstanding something.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: debian-user list information and guidelines : don't use CC mail list

2021-01-26 Thread tomas

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 11:37:59AM +0800, Robbi Nespu wrote:
> Hi hello

[...]

> I would like ask opinion on a little proposal to add new rule
> regrading using CC with mail list address.
> 
> The reason is, why the sender need to use "TO" to original sender /
> reply-er and CC the mail list, since the original sender / reply-er
> also subscriber to the same mailing list.

Sometimes (s)he is, sometimes not. You don't need a subscription
to post here. This is a conscious decision, to lower the entry
threshold (I haven't contributed to that decision myself, but I
do support it wholly).

> In another case, maybe someone not subscriber but try to help or ask
> for help directly but Debian additional CoC said "Do not quote
> messages that were sent to you by other people in private mail,
> unless agreed beforehand"

This is irrelevant. The above, when someone not subscribed posts a
question, that's what counts here.

> I prepared ASCII table for comparison matrix here[1] have a look, I
> could paste the table here since it may look broken on your email
> client.

Sorry. I'm not clicking on a github link until there is a strong
reason to do so.

> What I wish is to add one more additional code of conduct which
> something like "Do not send or reply email with CC mailing list,
> instead please use TO mailing address to send message if the person
> you want to communicate is coming from mail list" (need better
> sentences)

This discussion comes up here from time to time. It hasn't reached
a clear consensus yet: it's far more complex that it seems, because it
involves mail user agents and the interpretation of not-quite-standard
mail headers.

Do some research on the mailing list archives, and you'll see what
I mean :-)

> Let me know what do you think about it.

To be honest, I'm a bit rubbed the wrong way when you request a
discussion (good!) and come with the result of the discussion ("to
add one more additional code of conduct...").

There will be other positions here, and I expect of everyone to
at least understand the others people's points.

Cheers
 - t

signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Lu, 25 ian 21, 15:29:11, John Kaufmann wrote:
> On 2021-01-25 14:23, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Lu, 25 ian 21, 11:11:44, John Kaufmann wrote:
> > > On 2021-01-25 08:11, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:
> > > > > > In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list:
> > > > > > * debian-user
> > > > > > 1 bounce out of  mails in one day (%, kick-score is 80%)
> > > > > 
> > > > > First: How common is this occurrence for others?
> > > > 
> > > > It is common enough that it belongs in a FAQ.
> > > 
> > > Ah, you mean this:
> > > > On 2021-01-23 14:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > > > > There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of
> > > > > updating. https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
> > > 
> > > Despite the implicit invitation to all ;-) I'm not qualified to update 
> > > that FAQ. Who is?
> > 
> > Sigh.  The point of a wiki is to be kept up to date by *anyone* who
> > can provide a contribution (including spell checking!).
> 
> You are right, of course. I did not mean to suggest a reluctance in 
> principle, but a reluctance in domain expertise. (As mentioned, I 
> don't even know what measures the debian lists use against spam.) 
> Thanks; I will consider.

A link to the Listmaster's FAQ would be a good start ;)

More details on how the filtering is done probably belong there as well, 
and the debian-user FAQ should just link to that. Similar for everything 
that might be applicable for (many) other Debian lists.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: debian-user list information and guidelines : don't use CC mail list

2021-01-25 Thread Robbi Nespu

Hi hello

On 24/1/2021 3:24 am, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

The mailing list is a Debian communication forum. As such, it is subject to
both the Debian mailing list Code of Conduct and the main Debian Code of Conduct

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

This is a fairly busy mailing list and you may have to wait for an answer -
please be patient. Please post answers back to the list so others can benefit;
private
conversations don't benefit people who may be following along on the list or
reading the archives later.

Help and advice on this list is provided by volunteers in their own time. It is
common for there to be different opinions or answers provided. If responding to
someone, be considerate of their time and effort.

I would like ask opinion on a little proposal to add new rule regrading
using CC with mail list address.

The reason is, why the sender need to use "TO" to original sender /
reply-er and CC the mail list, since the original sender / reply-er also
subscriber to the same mailing list.

In another case, maybe someone not subscriber but try to help or ask for
help directly but Debian additional CoC said "Do not quote messages that
were sent to you by other people in private mail, unless agreed beforehand"

I prepared ASCII table for comparison matrix here[1] have a look, I
could paste the table here since it may look broken on your email client.

What I wish is to add one more additional code of conduct which
something like "Do not send or reply email with CC mailing list, instead
please use TO mailing address to send message if the person you want to
communicate is coming from mail list" (need better sentences)

Let me know what do you think about it.

[1]
https://gist.githubusercontent.com/RobbiNespu/ed58a5cf28560e47a8a6a3f717bdccca/raw/47a06adc566e00c9055b3c8a7b40ab70e5494f39/gistfile1.txt

--
Email: Robbi Nespu
PGP fingerprint : D311 B5FF EEE6 0BE8 9C91 FA9E 0C81 FA30 3B3A 80BA
PGP key : https://keybase.io/robbinespu/pgp_keys.asc

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread The Wanderer

On 2021-01-25 at 08:57, Andy Smith wrote:

> Hi John,
> 
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:16:38AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:
>> nb.net no longer run their own MTA (maybe for just this reason?), 
>> farming it out to userservices.net. As a result they increasingly 
>> unresponsive to complaints. I have not figured out my next step.
> 
> As mentioned, I do self-host my own email but when friends and family
> ask for a solution I like to point them at fastmail.com.
> 
> I've no association with fastmail.com, I just find them pleasant to 
> deal with when helping people.

I am (as you can see from my E-mail address) a Fastmail customer, from
before they switched to the .com domain as their primary if not default
address location.

I have had zero complaints about them over the years. I'd have to dig
pretty deep into my archives to find out just how long it has been since
I switched - but at one point when my family changed ISPs and I had to
migrate all my subscriptions (etc.) to a new address, I decided I didn't
want to ever have to do that again, and Fastmail (even at some of its
cheaper tiers) looked like everything I was looking for.

I've rarely had occasion to communicate with them for customer service,
but in every case that I recall I've gotten a response from an actual
human, albeit not always promptly.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam


On 2021-01-25 14:23, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 25 ian 21, 11:11:44, John Kaufmann wrote:

On 2021-01-25 08:11, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:

In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list:
* debian-user
1 bounce out of  mails in one day (%, kick-score is 80%)


First: How common is this occurrence for others?


It is common enough that it belongs in a FAQ.


Ah, you mean this:

On 2021-01-23 14:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of
updating. https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


Despite the implicit invitation to all ;-) I'm not qualified to update that 
FAQ. Who is?


Sigh.  The point of a wiki is to be kept up to date by *anyone* who
can provide a contribution (including spell checking!).


You are right, of course. I did not mean to suggest a reluctance in principle, 
but a reluctance in domain expertise. (As mentioned, I don't even know what 
measures the debian lists use against spam.) Thanks; I will consider.

Kind regards,
John

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam




On 2021-01-25 14:57, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 11:39:14AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:

On 2021-01-25 08:56, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

...
Look, I don't fear spam as much as provider's greed. ... IMO the best
anti-spam measures are a good MUA and a knowledgeable user.


Could not agree more. Thanks,
John

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 11:39:14AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:
> On 2021-01-25 08:56, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >...
> >Sometimes I get the impression that some economic actors hate mail
> >because it can't be fenced-off as easily as the "social" silos and
> >are doing their best to kill it.
> >
> >A pity that pgp/gpg hasn't caught on better.
> 
> That comment led me to wonder about what contribution pgp/gpg might make to 
> fighting spam. That led to pgp.mit.edu/faq.html, which has this ...

...although I didn't mean to imply that. OTOH, such shenanigans
as Brian reports (the mail provider changing mail's content in
transit -- hamfisted much? What else do they do?) would be cut
short by that.

> >Q: I think spammers got my email address from the PGP keyserver. What can I 
> >do?
> >A: Yes, there have been reports of spammers harvesting addresses from PGP 
> >keyservers. Unfortunately, there is not much that either we or you can do 
> >about this. Our best suggestion is you take advantage of any spam filtering 
> >technology offered by your ISP.
> 
> ... which of course brings us back to what triggered this thread. Now, I 
> suspect IAC that addresses harvested from a PGP server would be unprofitable 
> for a spammer, but do you have something operational in mind?

Look, I don't fear spam as much as provider's greed. FWIW, I run my
own mail server and have next to no spam filtering measures (whenever
some source becomes annoying, I quench that one directly) and the
amount of spam I receive is mildly annoying, at most.

IMO the best anti-spam measures are a good MUA and a knowledgeable
user.

Cheers
 - t

signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Lu, 25 ian 21, 11:11:44, John Kaufmann wrote:
> On 2021-01-25 08:11, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:
> > > > In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list:
> > > > * debian-user
> > > > 1 bounce out of  mails in one day (%, kick-score is 80%)
> > > 
> > > First: How common is this occurrence for others?
> > 
> > It is common enough that it belongs in a FAQ.
> 
> Ah, you mean this:
> > On 2021-01-23 14:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> > > There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of
> > > updating. https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
> 
> Despite the implicit invitation to all ;-) I'm not qualified to update that 
> FAQ. Who is?

Sigh.

The point of a wiki is to be kept up to date by *anyone* who can provide 
a contribution (including spell checking!).

Changes are monitored by other contributors and changes can be reverted 
quite easily (if really necessary).

If despite all this you are still reluctant to touch it please do feel 
free to post proposed changes to the list. If nobody objects within a 
few days proceed with the edits.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Pierre Frenkiel


On Mon, 25 Jan 2021, Andy Smith wrote:


 to point them at fastmail.com.

I've no association with fastmail.com, I just find them pleasant to
deal with when helping people.


  an other solution is "getmail", available as a debian package,
  and also, I suppose, with other distribs.
  I'm using it since several years, and is very happy with the way it works.
  It puts the incoming mail in a directory, and it's then easy to
  run a filter script, to remove spams.

best regards,
--
Pierre Frenkiel

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam


On 2021-01-25 08:56, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

...
Sometimes I get the impression that some economic actors hate mail
because it can't be fenced-off as easily as the "social" silos and
are doing their best to kill it.

A pity that pgp/gpg hasn't caught on better.


That comment led me to wonder about what contribution pgp/gpg might make to 
fighting spam. That led to pgp.mit.edu/faq.html, which has this ...


Q: I think spammers got my email address from the PGP keyserver. What can I do?
A: Yes, there have been reports of spammers harvesting addresses from PGP 
keyservers. Unfortunately, there is not much that either we or you can do about 
this. Our best suggestion is you take advantage of any spam filtering 
technology offered by your ISP.


... which of course brings us back to what triggered this thread. Now, I 
suspect IAC that addresses harvested from a PGP server would be unprofitable 
for a spammer, but do you have something operational in mind?

Kind regards,
John

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread brainfart





On 2021-01-25 07:56 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


A pity that pgp/gpg hasn't caught on better.


fud - fear uncertainty and doubt
if you use encryption you'll attract the attention of the man

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam


On 2021-01-25 08:11, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:

In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list:
* debian-user
1 bounce out of  mails in one day (%, kick-score is 80%)


First: How common is this occurrence for others?


It is common enough that it belongs in a FAQ.


Ah, you mean this:

On 2021-01-23 14:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of updating. 
https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


Despite the implicit invitation to all ;-) I'm not qualified to update that 
FAQ. Who is?

Some subscribers are using corporate (or even non-corporate) email 
systems that have aggressive filtering. ... For the record, as of

today, the email that I receive at this address undergoes no fewer
than *four* types of modifications before I see it ...

... And those are just the modifications that I know about, for the
messages I actually see.  ...


That's depressing; it suggests that, for all the attention it attracts, the 
problem is getting worse, not better.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam


On 2021-01-25 02:36, Andy Smith wrote:

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:

... The best practice when dealing with a piece of mail that has been
identified as so spammy that you don't want to receive it is not to
file it away in a spam folder, but to reject it at SMTP time.

... At least with an SMTP-time reject, the sending system knows that
the mail has not been safely sent. If it is a human sender than they
can take appropriate action if a mistake has been made.

Unfortunately Debian's listserv doesn't like it when you do this...
[so I] abandon the SMTP reject best practice policy for mails from
Debian lists.

You don't have that option, because you don't run your MTA. But the
people who run your MTA are doing the right thing by rejecting email
that they consider too spammy. So although it may be worth asking if
there's anything they can do, it's likely they won't want to do
anything differently there.


I cannot currently post to the SOGo list because their spam
filter (UCEPROTECT) claims that my ISP currently hosts 6
spammers. In response, they block all mail from that ISP (called
UCEPROTECT Level2 protection). Again, getting my ISP to care
about this is an ongoing challenge.


Now this one is different. UCEPROTECT doesn't have a good reputation
amongst DNSBLs. They routinely list entire providers for a small
number of incidents and they require a payment to be removed.


Ah. That may have something to do with my MTA provider's lack of interest in 
dealing with UCEPROTECT.

I would call it extremely unwise to outright block email for 
UCEPROTECT level 2 listing. ... They will be rejecting a lot of

legitimate email...  All you can do is try to persuade them to stop
using UCEPROTECT though.


Which can be hard to do if they won't accept my mail. ;-)

Thanks,
John

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Gene Heskett

On Monday 25 January 2021 08:56:04 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:29:54AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 02:17:34PM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > Are those modifications added by the Debian mailing list? That'd
> > > be strange, because I don't see them...
> >
> > No.  They're done on the receiving end.  I'm just letting you know
> > that there's some horrible shit out here in the real world.
>
> Definitely =:-o
>
> Sometimes I get the impression that some economic actors hate mail
> because it can't be fenced-off as easily as the "social" silos and
> are doing their best to kill it.
>
> A pity that pgp/gpg hasn't caught on better.

A lack of implementation instructions presented as a sales pitch is to 
blame there. That, and today, finding a copy that doesn't have the NSA 
back door that got Phil out of prison can be a chore.

> Cheers
>  - t


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Gene Heskett

On Monday 25 January 2021 08:29:54 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 02:17:34PM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Are those modifications added by the Debian mailing list? That'd be
> > strange, because I don't see them...
>
> No.  They're done on the receiving end.  I'm just letting you know
> that there's some horrible shit out here in the real world.

I agree. I get them too, and I think in the last several years I've only 
found one legit email in the whole lot. So I dump the bounce msgs 
to /dev/null by hand.

What we really need is a utility like the little Amazon box that blocks 
phone numbers from a war dialer so nicely. I answer the phone here with 
a finger near the big red button, and I'll say go or hello twice in 3 
secs, if no human is on the line by then, its a war dialer looking for 
its human to sell me something, so the button gets pushed.  Never hear 
from that number again. Something that looks at the messages header and 
auto-composes a procmail recipe to kill it forever.  I'd install that in 
front of kmail in a heartbeat. I've had it about a year, the blocked 
counter is nearly 100.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Greg Wooledge

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 02:56:04PM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> Sometimes I get the impression that some economic actors hate mail
> because it can't be fenced-off as easily as the "social" silos and
> are doing their best to kill it.

That may be true, but it's not the reasoning behind the changes at
my site.

The primary driving force behind the changes I've been experiencing is
a desire to protect the institute/enterprise from cyberattacks -- in
particular, ones like these:

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/cybersecurity/the-5-most-significant-cyberattacks-in-healthcare-for-2020.html

(I can send URLs out -- I just can't see them when they come back in.
Not even my own.)

As near as I can determine, the short term goal that our IT department
is striving to reach is "no end user will ever receive anything through
email that could compromise the network", which means no unfiltered URLs
that could be clicked on, no attachments that can be executed, etc.
Doesn't matter that the end user is reading email in mutt in a Linux
terminal.  Our IT department is all Microsoft people anyway, and I'm
not sure they even understand what a terminal *is*.

They've also totally blocked access to gmail.com and other large email
sites, so users can't receive malware through that vector -- for those
users who are still working on campus, anyway.

In the long term, they're trying to get to a point where *all* Internet
traffic is under their complete control and supervision.

Don't be surprised if I unsubscribe from this list with this email
address in the near future.  I may have to.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Andy Smith

Hi John,

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:16:38AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:
> nb.net no longer run their own MTA (maybe for just this reason?),
> farming it out to userservices.net. As a result they increasingly
> unresponsive to complaints. I have not figured out my next step.

As mentioned, I do self-host my own email but when friends and
family ask for a solution I like to point them at fastmail.com.

I've no association with fastmail.com, I just find them pleasant to
deal with when helping people.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:29:54AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 02:17:34PM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Are those modifications added by the Debian mailing list? That'd be
> > strange, because I don't see them...
> 
> No.  They're done on the receiving end.  I'm just letting you know that
> there's some horrible shit out here in the real world.

Definitely =:-o

Sometimes I get the impression that some economic actors hate mail
because it can't be fenced-off as easily as the "social" silos and
are doing their best to kill it.

A pity that pgp/gpg hasn't caught on better.

Cheers
 - t

signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam


On 2021-01-25 04:24, Joe wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 08:55:53 +0200 Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote:

...
Is there an intelligent way to manage when spam control efforts
break the system they want to protect? Do the debian lists attempt
to control spam by blocking specific users, domains or ISPs?


I've never found content-based anti-spam methods to be reliable. For a
time, I tried spamassassin, but I found I was spending a lot of time
tweaking it, and a week later would need to do it again. I decided that
spammers evolve faster than I care to try to deal with.

I do segregate some emails that cannot possibly be anything other than
spam but do not reject them, and send myself a daily email listing the
very few that were rejected that were actually sent to a real user on
my domains. I do get the occasional incorrect rejection, but no more
than half a dozen a year, which I can normally put right the next day.


Thanks for that perspective and summary of your practice,
John

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Greg Wooledge

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 02:17:34PM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> Are those modifications added by the Debian mailing list? That'd be
> strange, because I don't see them...

No.  They're done on the receiving end.  I'm just letting you know that
there's some horrible shit out here in the real world.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam


On 2021-01-25 04:05, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:55:53AM +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote:



[...] and can never get my ISP to care about this.


We can at least pester them about it. If enough of us do, eventually
they will have no choice but to listen, especially in case of paying
customers.


Very much this. Things only change if enough people care. Pestering
is /always/ The Right Thing to Do(TM).


Yes. I'm sympathetic to Doing the Right Thing(TM), but Time is a Scarce 
Commodity(TM) drained by unanswered emails and unreturned phone calls.

King regards,
John

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 08:11:51AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:
> > > In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list:
> > > * debian-user
> > >   1 bounce out of  mails in one day (%, kick-score is 80%)
> > 
> > First: How common is this occurrence for others?
> 
> It is common enough that it belongs in a FAQ.
> 
> Some subscribers are using corporate (or even non-corporate) email
> systems that have aggressive filtering.  Some legitimate debian-user
> email may be caught by these filters and either rejected outright during
> SMTP, or delayed pending review.  If it's rejected during SMTP, that'll
> certainly trigger the "we've seen bounces" message.

I've seen that (not very often) either because my mail server is
down or because I fat-fingered some configuration.

> For the record, as of today, the email that I receive at this address
> undergoes no fewer than *four* types of modifications before I see it:
> 
> 1) The Subject: line is altered.
> 2) A two-line disclaimer is inserted at the top of the body.  (One very
>long line of text, because *obviously* all those Netiquette guides
>are wrong, and one blank line.)
> 3) All URLs, fully qualified domain names, IP addresses, or any other
>content that looks like one of the above to a dumb regex, get
>replaced by mimecast URLs.
> 4) All attachments that look like they might contain executable code
>are removed.  This includes shell scripts, perl scripts, etc.

Are those modifications added by the Debian mailing list? That'd be
strange, because I don't see them...

Cheers
 - t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam


On 2021-01-25 01:55, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote:
...

... the background info links ... explain the origin
of the problem in spam control, and why bouncing list mail is not
nice, and what can and should be done about spam. I'm sympathetic to
the problem, but don't run my own mail server [I suspect many on this
list do so, and thus are closer to spam issues], and can never get my
ISP to care about this.


We can at least pester them about it. If enough of us do, eventually
they will have no choice but to listen, especially in case of paying
customers.


I avoid "free" mail services because I prefer not to be the commodity, so have 
been a paying customer (nb.net) forever. But nb.net no longer run their own MTA (maybe 
for just this reason?), farming it out to userservices.net. As a result they increasingly 
unresponsive to complaints. I have not figured out my next step.


...


Is there an intelligent way to manage when spam control efforts break
the system they want to protect? Do the debian lists attempt to
control spam by blocking specific users, domains or ISPs?


Start here:
https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/ListMaster/FAQ


Yes, that is where I started, but it does not address what measures the debian 
lists use to control spam. This thread was the next step toward mitigating the 
problem on my end. Thanks for your reply.

Kind regards,
John

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Greg Wooledge

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 01:03:07AM -0500, John Kaufmann wrote:
> > In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list:
> > * debian-user
> > 1 bounce out of  mails in one day (%, kick-score is 80%)
> 
> First: How common is this occurrence for others?

It is common enough that it belongs in a FAQ.

Some subscribers are using corporate (or even non-corporate) email
systems that have aggressive filtering.  Some legitimate debian-user
email may be caught by these filters and either rejected outright during
SMTP, or delayed pending review.  If it's rejected during SMTP, that'll
certainly trigger the "we've seen bounces" message.

For the record, as of today, the email that I receive at this address
undergoes no fewer than *four* types of modifications before I see it:

1) The Subject: line is altered.
2) A two-line disclaimer is inserted at the top of the body.  (One very
   long line of text, because *obviously* all those Netiquette guides
   are wrong, and one blank line.)
3) All URLs, fully qualified domain names, IP addresses, or any other
   content that looks like one of the above to a dumb regex, get
   replaced by mimecast URLs.
4) All attachments that look like they might contain executable code
   are removed.  This includes shell scripts, perl scripts, etc.

And those are just the modifications that I know about, for the messages
I actually see.  Some messages get held until I click an incredibly
long URL, which means I have to bounce the email to my Outlook account,
so I can see it in a web browser.  Even then, the email system warns
me that it still might choose not to deliver the message that I have
"released", because it will still be subject to further scrutiny first.

And yes, I do see those "we've seen bounces" emails.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Richard Owlett


On 01/25/2021 12:03 AM, John Kaufmann wrote:

On 2021-01-23 14:24, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
debian-user is a mailing list provided for support for Debian 
users,and to facilitate discussion on relevant topics.

...
There is a comprehensive FAQ on the Debian Wiki which is in need of 
updating.

https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


Your post provides a hook to ask about a question that arises 
sporadically: Probably less than one a month I receive from Debian 
Listmaster Team  a message 
"lists.debian.org has received bounces from you". Invariably it reads:

In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list:
* debian-user
1 bounce out of  mails in one day (%, kick-score is 80%)


First: How common is this occurrence for others?



I see about the same frequency. It is typically only a single message.
When I click on the link to the problem email I easily identify it as 
spam. I don't know if automatic filtering of posts to various Debian 
lists would be feasible.

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam

2021-01-25 Thread Joe

On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 08:55:53 +0200
Andrei POPESCU  wrote:

> On Lu, 25 ian 21, 01:03:07, John Kaufmann wrote:

> > > In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list:
> > > * debian-user
> > >   1 bounce out of  mails in one day (%, kick-score
> > > is 80%)  
> > 
> > First: How common is this occurrence for others?  
> 
> Depends on the provider. I receive list mail to a GMX account and it 
> does happen from time to time.
>  
> > Even when it happens, it will obviously never rise to the
> > kick-score,   
> 
> It could happen quickly with a misconfigured e-mail server / spam 
> filter, which is why the warning is being sent out.
> 

Or with a mail server that's down for a while, or where the Internet
connection is down, and in my case at least, when Debian's DNS servers
do not respond in a reasonable time.

> > so it's functionally forgettable. But the post itself is
> > educational, particularly with the background info links, which
> > explain the origin of the problem in spam control, and why bouncing
> > list mail is not nice, and what can and should be done about spam.
> > I'm sympathetic to the problem, but don't run my own mail server [I
> > suspect many on this list do so, and thus are closer to spam
> > issues], and can never get my ISP to care about this.  

I run my own mail server, which does *not* reject SMTP transactions
based on content, it looks for respectability. It never rejects Debian
email, whether spam or not.
> 
> We can at least pester them about it. If enough of us do, eventually 
> they will have no choice but to listen, especially in case of paying 
> customers.

I have a client who uses BT as his ISP, and therefore must use
Microsoft as his email provider. It is not possible to affect their
spam policy in any way, or even to turn it off. 

> > 
> > Is there an intelligent way to manage when spam control efforts
> > break the system they want to protect? Do the debian lists attempt
> > to control spam by blocking specific users, domains or ISPs?  

I've never found content-based anti-spam methods to be reliable. For a
time, I tried spamassassin, but I found I was spending a lot of time
tweaking it, and a week later would need to do it again. I decided that
spammers evolve faster than I care to try to deal with.

I do segregate some emails that cannot possibly be anything other than
spam but do not reject them, and send myself a daily email listing the
very few that were rejected that were actually sent to a real user on
my domains. I do get the occasional incorrect rejection, but no more
than half a dozen a year, which I can normally put right the next day.

-- 
Joe

Re: debian-user list info and guidelines: spam