Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 11:12:02PM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote: more likely to give better reports if asked by a nice dd. But since its not 'policy', its not something that is required. There is the obvious situation where DD have real lives and can not respond to every user, Apparently policy does not list requirements but best practices. IOW policy is not (supposed to be(?)) used to enforce behaviour. Please correct my statement(s) if I am off target. -- Chris. == -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 10:30:29AM -0400, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 11:12:02PM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:
more likely to give better reports if asked by a nice dd. But since its
not 'policy', its not something that is required. There is the obvious
situation where DD have real lives and can not respond to every user,
Apparently policy does not list requirements but best practices. IOW
policy is not (supposed to be(?)) used to enforce behaviour.
Please correct my statement(s) if I am off target.
That is why I used the quotes ('policy' vs policy).
--
| .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: |
| : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/|
| `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and |
| `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 |
| my keyserver: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org |
|join the new debian-community.org to help Debian! |
|___ Unless I ask to be CCd, assume I am subscribed ___|
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:30:29 -0400, Chris Bannister [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 11:12:02PM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote: more likely to give better reports if asked by a nice dd. But since its not 'policy', its not something that is required. There is the obvious situation where DD have real lives and can not respond to every user, Apparently policy does not list requirements but best practices. IOW policy is not (supposed to be(?)) used to enforce behaviour. No, Policy must directives are things package must comply with, or they are thrown out of the release (unless release managers offer dispensation). However, policy _changes_ tend to be conservative, and policy is not where you do design and tinkering. So new stuff needs to be tested, and deployed, and _then_ policy changes. Policy also does not tend to change rapidly and make gazillions of packages instantly buggy. Please correct my statement(s) if I am off target. You are. manoj -- A jury consists of twelve persons chosen to decide who has the better lawyer. Robert Frost Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golden-gryphon.com/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 07:44:58 -0400, Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 10:30:29AM -0400, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 11:12:02PM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:
more likely to give better reports if asked by a nice dd. But since
its not 'policy', its not something that is required. There is the
obvious situation where DD have real lives and can not respond to
every user,
Apparently policy does not list requirements but best practices. IOW
policy is not (supposed to be(?)) used to enforce behaviour.
Please correct my statement(s) if I am off target.
That is why I used the quotes ('policy' vs policy).
Hmm. I wondered why kevin was saying this, since he is generally
clued in, and knows policy is to be followed. The distinction is that
Debian technical policy, the entity Chris is referring to (I presume),
does not govern people. It governs technical aspects of packaging
Debian software, so it has no jurisdiction in how reports are responded
to.
Sorry if my previous mail was confusing.
manoj
--
Sushido, n.: The way of the tuna.
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golden-gryphon.com/
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nate Bargmann wrote: keeling: Plenty of stuff, lots of replies and multipost threads. Can't see any bug reports. Guess it's off to the BTS to search there. Drat. How 'bout that? Search of the BTS for submitter reports no reports found. Huh? What address did you submit them from? H, methinks the emperor has no clothes. ;-) Hey, that's pretty pejorative. I TOLD you I don't use Debian. I didn't submit from my machine. So it isn't in my name, is it? Ah. I guess that might be an overly broad assumption on my part these days. I don't think you're a troll. No. It seems likely that she will blast Debian, and I just didn't want to disappear off the list with no explanation, and thought that some explanation might aid the group. Okay. My Mom just went from an iMac to Vista. I feel your pain. Still, I'd rather the perceived problems got fixed. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Nate Bargmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007 Sep 26 04:27 -0500]: Btw, THIS IS ALL VOLUNTEER WORK HERE. fyi. Yup. And I for one appreciate our Debian Volunteer Overlords. ;-) Ah geez. You made me laugh. I even considered typing LOL ... Crap! -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: a lot of time working on non-goals; the question at hand is whether adoption by the level of user in question is or is not a goal. I'm satisfied to leave that up to the individual. It's none of my business. Caveat emptor applies in all situations. If they want to use it, _good for them_. If they want crapware from Redmond instead, _good for them_. Irrelevant to me. I've got what I want. I'm sure Debian doesn't depend on any one user. I'm also sure that she's not the only one like her. Anyway, I think this thread has probably already gone on too long. Andrew Sackville-Jones(sp?) has the multiple queues thing working. What else is a problem? -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
s/Jones/West/g You gotta change your name to Steve. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 10:28:38AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 07:44:58 -0400, Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 10:30:29AM -0400, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 11:12:02PM -0400, Kevin Mark wrote:
more likely to give better reports if asked by a nice dd. But since
its not 'policy', its not something that is required. There is the
obvious situation where DD have real lives and can not respond to
every user,
Apparently policy does not list requirements but best practices. IOW
policy is not (supposed to be(?)) used to enforce behaviour.
Please correct my statement(s) if I am off target.
That is why I used the quotes ('policy' vs policy).
Hmm. I wondered why kevin was saying this, since he is generally
clued in, and knows policy is to be followed. The distinction is that
Debian technical policy, the entity Chris is referring to (I presume),
does not govern people. It governs technical aspects of packaging
Debian software, so it has no jurisdiction in how reports are responded
to.
Sorry if my previous mail was confusing.
manoj
I don't recall if there is anything written in the 'dev corner' that
dictates DD-'bug reporter' reponse-policy or best-practices. Any pointer
appreciated.
And now for something completely different...
(cue monty python music)
--
| .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: |
| : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/|
| `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and |
| `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 |
| my keyserver: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org |
|join the new debian-community.org to help Debian! |
|___ Unless I ask to be CCd, assume I am subscribed ___|
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Nate Bargmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007 Sep 26 04:27 -0500]: Btw, THIS IS ALL VOLUNTEER WORK HERE. fyi. Yup. And I for one appreciate our Debian Volunteer Overlords. ;-) Ah geez. You made me laugh. I even considered typing LOL ... Crap! -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nate Bargmann wrote: keeling: Plenty of stuff, lots of replies and multipost threads. Can't see any bug reports. Guess it's off to the BTS to search there. Drat. How 'bout that? Search of the BTS for submitter reports no reports found. Huh? What address did you submit them from? H, methinks the emperor has no clothes. ;-) Hey, that's pretty pejorative. I TOLD you I don't use Debian. I didn't submit from my machine. So it isn't in my name, is it? Ah. I guess that might be an overly broad assumption on my part these days. I don't think you're a troll. No. It seems likely that she will blast Debian, and I just didn't want to disappear off the list with no explanation, and thought that some explanation might aid the group. Okay. My Mom just went from an iMac to Vista. I feel your pain. Still, I'd rather the perceived problems got fixed. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: a lot of time working on non-goals; the question at hand is whether adoption by the level of user in question is or is not a goal. I'm satisfied to leave that up to the individual. It's none of my business. Caveat emptor applies in all situations. If they want to use it, _good for them_. If they want crapware from Redmond instead, _good for them_. Irrelevant to me. I've got what I want. I'm sure Debian doesn't depend on any one user. I'm also sure that she's not the only one like her. Anyway, I think this thread has probably already gone on too long. Andrew Sackville-Jones(sp?) has the multiple queues thing working. What else is a problem? -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
s/Jones/West/g You gotta change your name to Steve. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 10:25:10AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:30:29 -0400, Chris Bannister [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Apparently policy does not list requirements but best practices. IOW policy is not (supposed to be(?)) used to enforce behaviour. No, Policy must directives are things package must comply with, or they are thrown out of the release (unless release managers offer dispensation). However, policy _changes_ tend to be conservative, and policy is not where you do design and tinkering. So new stuff needs to be tested, and deployed, and _then_ policy changes. Policy also does not tend to change rapidly and make gazillions of packages instantly buggy. Please correct my statement(s) if I am off target. You are. Thanks for clarifying matters. -- Chris. == -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I have some feedback about my GF who uses Debian at my suggestion. I have no irons in the fire on this one, as I don't use Debian, though I do administer her machine for her. So, please don't take this as a complaint from me, as it isn't. I'm simply informing the Debian forum of a situation. She's had four problems with using Debian on her machine, and support response from this forum has been somewhat less than she had hoped for. snip May be she (what' s a GF?) hoped for too much. I find that if the forum does not respond it is most often because you don' t ask the question right. Or The question should be directed to a more specific forum. Or What you are asking is not a problem. It' s only a problem in your head. Hugo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: ... (what' s a GF?) ... Girl-Friend. (I used to understand the concept of girlfriends better before Debian came along ) -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Kent West wrote:
Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
... (what' s a GF?) ...
Girl-Friend. (I used to understand the concept of girlfriends better
before Debian came along )
The concept is not hazy, but the practice is. I don't understand
THEM much at all.
But, as I advised my son, I don't try too hard to learn to understand
them, I expend my efforts learning to appreciate them.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Kent West wrote: Girl-Friend. (I used to understand the concept of girlfriends better before Debian came along ) ...that lives in another town and can't come to dance (prom, graduation, party) because she always seems to get sick or help her parents. :D -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:22 AM, Mike McCarty wrote: Kent West wrote: Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: ... (what' s a GF?) ... Girl-Friend. (I used to understand the concept of girlfriends better before Debian came along ) The concept is not hazy, but the practice is. I don't understand THEM much at all. But, as I advised my son, I don't try too hard to learn to understand them, I expend my efforts learning to appreciate them. I think the problem is people focus on the 'girl' part and forget the 'friend' part. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
David Brodbeck wrote: On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:22 AM, Mike McCarty wrote: Kent West wrote: Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: ... (what' s a GF?) ... Girl-Friend. (I used to understand the concept of girlfriends better before Debian came along ) The concept is not hazy, but the practice is. I don't understand THEM much at all. But, as I advised my son, I don't try too hard to learn to understand them, I expend my efforts learning to appreciate them. I think the problem is people focus on the 'girl' part and forget the 'friend' part. that's exactly what i did in my younger days and now i am married for more than 40 years... steef -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 09/28/07 16:31, steef wrote: David Brodbeck wrote: On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:22 AM, Mike McCarty wrote: Kent West wrote: Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: ... (what' s a GF?) ... Girl-Friend. (I used to understand the concept of girlfriends better before Debian came along ) The concept is not hazy, but the practice is. I don't understand THEM much at all. But, as I advised my son, I don't try too hard to learn to understand them, I expend my efforts learning to appreciate them. I think the problem is people focus on the 'girl' part and forget the 'friend' part. that's exactly what i did in my younger days and now i am married for more than 40 years... Focus on the girl and forget about the friend? - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFG/YF5S9HxQb37XmcRAjVtAJ9RgvX/kiDvh8a8oGhpEQjNgnbncwCg17YK lLudLGUUQx3t/ZhrruzlcSg= =IofI -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 08:18:32PM -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 03:50:47AM +0200, s. keeling wrote: s/Jones/West/g You gotta change your name to Steve. Steve Sackville-Jones?? No, Andrew Steve Andrew Stevenson Steve Andrews Ann Drew :)) Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Am 2007-09-25 10:11:36, schrieb Mike Bird: On Tuesday 25 September 2007 09:55, Mike McCarty wrote: (big snip) Anyway, that's it, FWIW. Long message wth no specifics. No way to help you. --Mike Bird - END OF REPLIED MESSAGE - ACK! -- No word about whats going wrong. Non Bug# or something else. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian may lose a user
Am 2007-09-25 12:36:11, schrieb Mike McCarty: I wasn't asking for help. I'm telling you that due to perceived lack of help, a user is leaving (or at least it seems to me that she will). You have not ask for helb but wining At the time the problems were first reported, details were provided. Do you have asked the list about it? You have not provided any Bug# to catch what happen there... Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian may lose a user
Am 2007-09-25 14:21:35, schrieb Hal Vaughan: That's an interesting point: We hear a description of someone that basically wants, for free, everything people pay hundreds of dollars for. Sometimes it's easy to forget that open source software companies often give away the software but make their earnings on support. Oh, wait. Debian isn't a company. It's a non-profit organization. But there are Debian based distros that one can buy support for, like Ubuntu. Even without buying support, the Ubunut forums are good places to get help. You do not need forcement a Debian based distro since there are enough Debian GNU/Linux Consultants arround the world. And professionel help (for hard Euros) you can get in Strasbourg from me... :-) what they get. Oddly enough, I find a lot of people complain more about something they get for free than something they pay for. FullACK! -- There are too many peoples, expecting to get the FULL BLOWN support for free. I have a family where 3 of my 4 girls are in an Internat which must be payed (3000 Euro/month)... Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian may lose a user
Am 2007-09-25 20:33:33, schrieb Martin Marcher: Hello, I'm interested in the job offer you posted on [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have several years of experience in Desktop and Server systems with debian and other linux distributions. I charge by the hour, every started hour is normally EUR 50. Contact me privately if you are interested. I also do have some offers if you expect a larger volume of support calls. If you'd like to receive more info on that just add a note. Best regards martin - END OF REPLIED MESSAGE - Are you already registered at http://www.debian.org/consultants ? I am and have a nice bunch of customers in and arround Strasbourg... Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian may lose a user
* s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007 Sep 26 04:27 -0500]: Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Mike Bird wrote: On Tuesday 25 September 2007 12:45, Mike McCarty wrote: I'm not trying to be mean, either. I'm reporting a single event. We're all volunteers here. You too. If you find time I guess some of us would appreciate your posting links to the previous I was deliberately not posting the problems, since that might look like a complaint. I'm not trying to get action. Argh! We're Debian. We're trying to get action! fsck it! groups.google.com -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] site:lists.debian.org Plenty of stuff, lots of replies and multipost threads. Can't see any bug reports. Guess it's off to the BTS to search there. Drat. How 'bout that? Search of the BTS for submitter reports no reports found. Huh? What address did you submit them from? H, methinks the emperor has no clothes. ;-) Mr. McCarty wore out his welcome with me sometime back when I made an honest effort to help and was dismissed. This thread makes me think Mr. McCarty may be playing the part of a troll. YMMV. Btw, THIS IS ALL VOLUNTEER WORK HERE. fyi. Yup. And I for one appreciate our Debian Volunteer Overlords. ;-) Debian, on the other hand, I do care about and want to help fixing anything I can. *Lots* of others in this thread are saying the same thing. Problem? What problem? I can't see it! Where is it? Nobody can fix what they can't even see. You're not helping. Trolling, perhaps? - Nate -- Wireless | Amateur Radio Station N0NB | Successfully Microsoft Amateur radio exams; ham radio; Linux info @ | free since January 1998. http://www.qsl.net/n0nb/ | Debian, the choice of My Kawasaki KZ-650 SR @| a GNU generation! http://www.networksplus.net/n0nb/ | http://www.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Nate Bargmann wrote:
Plenty of stuff, lots of replies and multipost threads. Can't see any
bug reports. Guess it's off to the BTS to search there. Drat.
How 'bout that? Search of the BTS for submitter reports no reports
found. Huh? What address did you submit them from?
H, methinks the emperor has no clothes. ;-)
Hey, that's pretty pejorative. I TOLD you I don't use
Debian. I didn't submit from my machine. So it isn't in
my name, is it?
How about engaging brain before starting mouth?
Mr. McCarty wore out his welcome with me sometime back when I made an
honest effort to help and was dismissed. This thread makes me think
Well, I don't recall that, but if I did, then I'm sorry.
Mr. McCarty may be playing the part of a troll. YMMV.
Not at all.
Trolling, perhaps?
No. It seems likely that she will blast Debian, and I just didn't
want to disappear off the list with no explanation, and thought
that some explanation might aid the group.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 06:39:37AM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: Yup. And I for one appreciate our Debian Volunteer Overlords. ;-) In soviet russia, debian volunteers you! A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian may lose a user
Nate Bargmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007 Sep 26 04:27 -0500]: Btw, THIS IS ALL VOLUNTEER WORK HERE. fyi. Yup. And I for one appreciate our Debian Volunteer Overlords. ;-) Ah geez. You made me laugh. I even considered typing LOL ... Crap! -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nate Bargmann wrote: keeling: Plenty of stuff, lots of replies and multipost threads. Can't see any bug reports. Guess it's off to the BTS to search there. Drat. How 'bout that? Search of the BTS for submitter reports no reports found. Huh? What address did you submit them from? H, methinks the emperor has no clothes. ;-) Hey, that's pretty pejorative. I TOLD you I don't use Debian. I didn't submit from my machine. So it isn't in my name, is it? Ah. I guess that might be an overly broad assumption on my part these days. I don't think you're a troll. No. It seems likely that she will blast Debian, and I just didn't want to disappear off the list with no explanation, and thought that some explanation might aid the group. Okay. My Mom just went from an iMac to Vista. I feel your pain. Still, I'd rather the perceived problems got fixed. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: a lot of time working on non-goals; the question at hand is whether adoption by the level of user in question is or is not a goal. I'm satisfied to leave that up to the individual. It's none of my business. Caveat emptor applies in all situations. If they want to use it, _good for them_. If they want crapware from Redmond instead, _good for them_. Irrelevant to me. I've got what I want. I'm sure Debian doesn't depend on any one user. I'm also sure that she's not the only one like her. Anyway, I think this thread has probably already gone on too long. Andrew Sackville-Jones(sp?) has the multiple queues thing working. What else is a problem? -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
s/Jones/West/g You gotta change your name to Steve. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 03:50:47AM +0200, s. keeling wrote: s/Jones/West/g You gotta change your name to Steve. Steve Sackville-Jones?? A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Debian may lose a user
I have some feedback about my GF who uses Debian at my suggestion.
I have no irons in the fire on this one, as I don't use Debian,
though I do administer her machine for her. So, please don't take
this as a complaint from me, as it isn't. I'm simply informing
the Debian forum of a situation.
She's had four problems with using Debian on her machine,
and support response from this forum has been somewhat less
than she had hoped for. Of the four problems, one I was able
to fix up somewhat by cooking up a printer description file
for her new printer, which now works in a limited sense. One
of them we have a work around, though it isn't pleasant, and
requires me to do some physical recabling of the machine.
The other two remain completely unfixed.
I used the official reporting tool on one of the problems,
and we were not even accorded the courtesy of a response
indicating that the report had been received and was going
to be acted upon. The tool did confirm that a report had
been made, but that was all. I've seen no indication from
Debian that any progress has been made.
At one point, another fellow contacted me stating that
one of the unsolved problems had also bitten him, and
wanted to know what progress or solution eventually came
out. I regretfully responded that there was, AFAIK, no
solution, and she simply lives with the fact that Debian
cannot do what she wants at all.
Anyway, she bought a copy of Windows XP a few weeks ago, and I'm
pretty sure she intends to install this weekend, since she
sent me an e-mail showing that she purchased a copy of F-Prot
for Windows. This would be a heads up for me, indicating
what might be on the honey do list for this weekend.
I provide this only to let you know that it looks like Debian
is going to lose a user to Windows shortly, due to perceived
lack of concern over user's difficulties shown by those who do
support for Debian. I have gently nudged her in the direction of
sticking with it a little longer, and so due to my reluctance to
kill Debian she has. But things seemingly have just gone on too
long.
Anyway, that's it, FWIW.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tuesday 25 September 2007 09:55, Mike McCarty wrote: (big snip) Anyway, that's it, FWIW. Long message wth no specifics. No way to help you. --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike Bird wrote:
On Tuesday 25 September 2007 09:55, Mike McCarty wrote:
(big snip)
Anyway, that's it, FWIW.
Long message wth no specifics. No way to help you.
I wasn't asking for help. I'm telling you that due to
perceived lack of help, a user is leaving (or at least
it seems to me that she will).
At the time the problems were first reported, details were provided.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 12:36 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
Mike Bird wrote:
On Tuesday 25 September 2007 09:55, Mike McCarty wrote:
(big snip)
Anyway, that's it, FWIW.
Long message wth no specifics. No way to help you.
I wasn't asking for help. I'm telling you that due to
perceived lack of help, a user is leaving (or at least
it seems to me that she will).
Mike, you have to realize that support is provided by volunteers who
have lives (families, children, jobs, little league, etc.) outside of
supporting the software. There is no guarentee of any support when you
install Debian. But it is there. You have to learn how to ask, and
sometimes you have to ask several times before you get a response.
If you want a telephone number, and (almost) instant gratification, then
your GF should use Windows. If you want to be part of a community and
save thousands of dollars in software costs over the lifetime of your
computing life, then you have to have patience, and learn how to ask
questions. And you have to give back to the community that is helping
you.
At the time the problems were first reported, details were provided.
No volunteer is going to go back and research your problem report. If
you want to solve the problem, you have to be ready to assit the
volunteers who are willing to help you when they are ready to help.
Just my 2 cents.
Mark
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tuesday 25 September 2007, Mike McCarty wrote: Mike Bird wrote: On Tuesday 25 September 2007 09:55, Mike McCarty wrote: (big snip) Anyway, that's it, FWIW. Long message wth no specifics. No way to help you. I wasn't asking for help. I'm telling you that due to perceived lack of help, a user is leaving (or at least it seems to me that she will). At the time the problems were first reported, details were provided. If, by the official reporting tool, you mean filing bug reports, I don't know of any program or group that replies to those unless they have to ask for specifics. If she has problems with bugs in Windows XP, it's even less likely any bugs she reports will be fixed, unless it's in the next version she has to pay for. On the other hand, I did not see a statement in your original letter that said she (or you) actually asked for help on a mailing list or similar forum. I'm a big proponent of being as helpful to new users as possible. When I first came on D-U when I wanted to learn Debian, Woody was still out and, at that time, I was shocked at how blunt and rude some responses to questions were. It's not like that anymore, but I did learn one thing: Debian is not for everyone. From what I've seen, this user Debian might lose filed issue reports and expected quick patches for them, did not ask for help on a mailing list, and figures it's just this one distro or Windows. Then, as admin, you bring up these problems to inform Debian, but do not give one single detail so we can help. If we can't help, why tell anyone anything? There's also distros intended for people that aren't as familiar with Linux, like Ubuntu or Mandriva. If I were working with this person, I'd recommend trying Ubuntu instead. Debian is not for everyone. I don't mean to be rude, but given the facts indicated in the paragraph just before this one, I seriously doubt your girlfriend has the experience needed to use Debian. I'm not saying that to be mean. It's like any other tool: Some work for everyone, some work better for people with no experience, and some work best for those who are experienced and want more than what most use. Debian, in many ways, is more for servers than an end user system. While I don't like to lose users, I would question if this is a user that gets Debian or even should be using Debian as opposed to another distro or even a different OS. Hal
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty wrote: I provide this only to let you know that it looks like Debian is going to lose a user to Windows shortly, due to perceived lack of concern over user's difficulties shown by those who do support for Debian. I have gently nudged her in the direction of sticking with it a little longer, and so due to my reluctance to kill Debian she has. But things seemingly have just gone on too long. Anyway, that's it, FWIW. Fair enough. A user who needs guaranteed outside support is not advised to use Debian, but one of the paid-for Linux-with-support distributions such as Red Hat. At a pinch, Windows might do, but check with Microsoft about the cost of support calls first, as it isn't included in the price. Support from Microsoft over breakages due to service packs and upgrades is free. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 12:36:11PM -0500, Mike McCarty wrote: Mike Bird wrote: On Tuesday 25 September 2007 09:55, Mike McCarty wrote: (big snip) Anyway, that's it, FWIW. Long message wth no specifics. No way to help you. I wasn't asking for help. I'm telling you that due to perceived lack of help, a user is leaving (or at least it seems to me that she will). At the time the problems were first reported, details were provided. Not every problem is solveable in debian, and if there are things your gf needs that debian can't do, then she should use something that can do those things. That said, I find it hard to believe that there is much that can be done with Windows that can't be done with debian. But I know there can be showstoppers for people and sometimes they can be really simple things that make the experience intolerable and force a change to some other OS. that's all fine. But, not every problem that is solveable in debian is solveable by the particular group of people who happen to read this list at any particular time. IOW, its just possible (and in fact likely) that the posts you've made about particular problems happened to hit at a time when the folks who could solve it weren't looking. Surely this can be frustrating. I appreciate that you are attempting to communicate a general problem in support responsiveness. I assume you are doing this as a heads-up call for us that we are missing opportunities and that you hope we can improve (something I'm sure we can do and probably need to do). But, if you really want us to do better, give us the opportunity to solve these problems again. (I'm guessing one of them is the multiple-print-queue issue which I'm sitting down to work on right now.) Of course, if you're done and had enough, I understand too. I feel its a little unfair to tell us we've messed up and probably lost a user and then not give us that last opportunity to make it right. respectfully A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tuesday 25 September 2007, Joe wrote: Mike McCarty wrote: I provide this only to let you know that it looks like Debian is going to lose a user to Windows shortly, due to perceived lack of concern over user's difficulties shown by those who do support for Debian. I have gently nudged her in the direction of sticking with it a little longer, and so due to my reluctance to kill Debian she has. But things seemingly have just gone on too long. Anyway, that's it, FWIW. Fair enough. A user who needs guaranteed outside support is not advised to use Debian, but one of the paid-for Linux-with-support distributions such as Red Hat. At a pinch, Windows might do, but check with Microsoft about the cost of support calls first, as it isn't included in the price. Support from Microsoft over breakages due to service packs and upgrades is free. That's an interesting point: We hear a description of someone that basically wants, for free, everything people pay hundreds of dollars for. Sometimes it's easy to forget that open source software companies often give away the software but make their earnings on support. Oh, wait. Debian isn't a company. It's a non-profit organization. But there are Debian based distros that one can buy support for, like Ubuntu. Even without buying support, the Ubunut forums are good places to get help. There are always those who want everything and won't be happy no matter what they get. Oddly enough, I find a lot of people complain more about something they get for free than something they pay for. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mark Phillips writes: If you want a telephone number, and (almost) instant gratification, then your GF should use Windows. No, she should contract for paid support for Debian. It is available. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Hello,
I'm interested in the job offer you posted on
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I have several years of experience in
Desktop and Server systems with debian and other linux distributions.
I charge by the hour, every started hour is normally EUR 50. Contact
me privately if you are interested.
I also do have some offers if you expect a larger volume of support
calls. If you'd like to receive more info on that just add a note.
Best regards
martin
2007/9/25, Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I have some feedback about my GF who uses Debian at my suggestion.
I have no irons in the fire on this one, as I don't use Debian,
though I do administer her machine for her. So, please don't take
this as a complaint from me, as it isn't. I'm simply informing
the Debian forum of a situation.
She's had four problems with using Debian on her machine,
and support response from this forum has been somewhat less
than she had hoped for. Of the four problems, one I was able
to fix up somewhat by cooking up a printer description file
for her new printer, which now works in a limited sense. One
of them we have a work around, though it isn't pleasant, and
requires me to do some physical recabling of the machine.
The other two remain completely unfixed.
I used the official reporting tool on one of the problems,
and we were not even accorded the courtesy of a response
indicating that the report had been received and was going
to be acted upon. The tool did confirm that a report had
been made, but that was all. I've seen no indication from
Debian that any progress has been made.
At one point, another fellow contacted me stating that
one of the unsolved problems had also bitten him, and
wanted to know what progress or solution eventually came
out. I regretfully responded that there was, AFAIK, no
solution, and she simply lives with the fact that Debian
cannot do what she wants at all.
Anyway, she bought a copy of Windows XP a few weeks ago, and I'm
pretty sure she intends to install this weekend, since she
sent me an e-mail showing that she purchased a copy of F-Prot
for Windows. This would be a heads up for me, indicating
what might be on the honey do list for this weekend.
I provide this only to let you know that it looks like Debian
is going to lose a user to Windows shortly, due to perceived
lack of concern over user's difficulties shown by those who do
support for Debian. I have gently nudged her in the direction of
sticking with it a little longer, and so due to my reluctance to
kill Debian she has. But things seemingly have just gone on too
long.
Anyway, that's it, FWIW.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://noneisyours.marcher.name
http://feeds.feedburner.com/NoneIsYours
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:21 PM Hal Said: There are always those who want everything and won't be happy no matter what they get. Oddly enough, I find a lot of people complain more about something they get for free than something they pay for. I've only had one item I've ever identified that was not and has never been fixed. And it is in the base linux kernel and has never been fixed in any distro. I identified it in the 2.2 kernel - long time back... And, I've never had ANYTHING fixed by Microsoft that was not Upgrade to newest version in their response. I mainly handle servers, so I love the debian distro... Here's the one item I mentioned above: Dialup into a USB Modem has issues with CR/LF (opost settings) and there is no way to compensate for them within the local terminal emulation program since the handling of CR/LF behaves differently based upon whether you are at the prompt or in an application like vi. - So, you have to switch back and forth the CR/LF settings in your favorite terminal package based on what you are doing on the linux box whenever you dial into a USB modem... (Dila into the same system, serial modem, works fine...) I sent the bug to usb-core and usb-serial years ago and it still hasn't been addressed. stty opost settings work on serial lines, but not usb-serial lines.. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty wrote: I provide this only to let you know that it looks like Debian is going to lose a user to Windows shortly, due to perceived lack of concern over user's difficulties shown by those who do support for Debian. The real problem here is that Linux is losing a user to Windows. To be honest, Debian can lose many users. Either you're a Debian user or you're not. There's no negative connotation to that, it is just Debian is focused on a certain group and not all users fall within that group. My advice is, yes, your GF should not use Debian. I say that as a Debian user. I would rather your GF, and by extension you, be happy with your decision in a distribution and if Debian is not making you happy, by all means, go elsewhere. However, speaking as a KUbuntu user, don't let Debian be the only distribution that your GF experiences. Just as Debian is aimed at a certain set of users so too is Ubuntu in its many forms. Again, no negative connotation in that. For someone who is not die-hard into Linux and willing to put forth the effort to dig into problems and resolve them I would no longer recommend Debian. I would point them to Ubuntu for Gnome, KUbuntu for KDE or XUbuntu for XFCE. If they were not sure and had only experience in Windows then I'd steer them to KUbuntu. I use Debian on my servers because I am not concerned about the niceties. I just want to plop it on there, get it running and let it go. My laptop and main machine have KUbuntu because I do want the niceties. I don't want to have to dig into it. I just want to read my mail, write my stories, browse the web and play my games. I'm guessing that is the level your GF is at. So have her give a distribution that is geared for that level a try. -- Steve Lamb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 09/25/07 11:55, Mike McCarty wrote: I have some feedback about my GF who uses Debian at my suggestion. I have no irons in the fire on this one, as I don't use Debian, though I do administer her machine for her. So, please don't take this as a complaint from me, as it isn't. I'm simply informing the Debian forum of a situation. She's had four problems with using Debian on her machine, and support response from this forum has been somewhat less than she had hoped for. Of the four problems, one I was able I've come to the conclusion that Debian isn't an end-user[0] distro. It should only be managed by knowledgeable geeks. [0] Grandma/SO successfully using Debian to read email, surf the web and look at photos in eog/gqview and write the occasional document in OOo or AbiWord is more of a kiosk than a GP system. to fix up somewhat by cooking up a printer description file for her new printer, which now works in a limited sense. One of them we have a work around, though it isn't pleasant, and requires me to do some physical recabling of the machine. The other two remain completely unfixed. Linux has limitations. Sometimes it's lack of kernel driver, sometimes it's proprietary network protocols, sometimes it's a less-fully-functional-than-Windows app, and sometimes is just that the app isn't polished. [snip] Anyway, she bought a copy of Windows XP a few weeks ago, and I'm pretty sure she intends to install this weekend, since she sent me an e-mail showing that she purchased a copy of F-Prot for Windows. This would be a heads up for me, indicating what might be on the honey do list for this weekend. The grass is *not* greener on the other side. Just different. She'll find that out the first time that malware sneaks past F-Prot. I provide this only to let you know that it looks like Debian is going to lose a user to Windows shortly, due to perceived lack of concern over user's difficulties shown by those who do support for Debian. I have gently nudged her in the direction of sticking with it a little longer, and so due to my reluctance to kill Debian she has. But things seemingly have just gone on too long. Ubuntu. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFG+WL8S9HxQb37XmcRAnRsAKCaLsFy1GhjKzQtVskdtfnbwPIbKgCg4gQd rUpu+ilOvgEcw6Q6Xj39DxM= =ugIA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mark Phillips wrote:
Mike, you have to realize that support is provided by volunteers who
have lives (families, children, jobs, little league, etc.) outside of
supporting the software. There is no guarentee of any support when you
install Debian. But it is there. You have to learn how to ask, and
sometimes you have to ask several times before you get a response.
Of course I recognize this. I told you, I'm not complaining.
I have no oars in the water about this.
At the time the problems were first reported, details were provided.
No volunteer is going to go back and research your problem report. If
you want to solve the problem, you have to be ready to assit the
volunteers who are willing to help you when they are ready to help.
I didn't ASK for anything. I don't want anyone going back through
the archives. I don't want anyone to DO anything as a result of
what I wrote.
I'm just providing information. If it isn't useful to you, then
just ignore it.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Hal Vaughan wrote:
[...]
On the other hand, I did not see a statement in your original letter
that said she (or you) actually asked for help on a mailing list or
similar forum.
Every problem she's had has been reported here with details as well.
just before this one, I seriously doubt your girlfriend has the
experience needed to use Debian. I'm not saying that to be mean. It's
She's been using computers since late 1980s or early 1990s.
She used to run a BBS back in the MSDOS days.
I'm not trying to be mean, either. I'm reporting a single event.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tuesday 25 September 2007 12:45, Mike McCarty wrote: I'm not trying to be mean, either. I'm reporting a single event. We're all volunteers here. You too. If you find time I guess some of us would appreciate your posting links to the previous problems you discussed. And if you don't find time, we understand. We also cannot find time to do everything we'd like to do. --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Martin Marcher wrote:
Why is it that simple statments, preceded by disclaimers
indicating that they are not complaints, get treated as
complaints?
Hello,
I'm interested in the job offer you posted on
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I have several years of experience in
Desktop and Server systems with debian and other linux distributions.
I charge by the hour, every started hour is normally EUR 50. Contact
me privately if you are interested.
Sarcasm is unbecoming, especially since I am a disinterested third
party.
It's also unbecoming to quote an entire message and not even
to reply particularly to any part of it.
A: Because it reverses the normal order of conversation and
encourages quoting entire messages.
Q: Why is top-posting deprecated by some?
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike Bird wrote:
On Tuesday 25 September 2007 12:45, Mike McCarty wrote:
I'm not trying to be mean, either. I'm reporting a single event.
We're all volunteers here. You too. If you find time I guess
some of us would appreciate your posting links to the previous
problems you discussed. And if you don't find time, we understand.
We also cannot find time to do everything we'd like to do.
I was deliberately not posting the problems, since that
might look like a complaint. I'm not trying to get action.
I really was just describing a situation. I understand there
are some here who wish that Linux were a viable alternative
to the various MicroSoft products that are available. She's
a technically competent user, just not expert at Linux, who
wants her machine just to work.
She was willing to learn to use other tools to do her work,
but she wasn't willing to spend time making the tools work.
Or at least, only limited time.
I provide this information only as an indicator of where
there might be an opportunity to win more Windows users
and lose fewer.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tuesday 25 September 2007, Mike McCarty wrote: Mike Bird wrote: On Tuesday 25 September 2007 12:45, Mike McCarty wrote: I'm not trying to be mean, either. I'm reporting a single event. We're all volunteers here. You too. If you find time I guess some of us would appreciate your posting links to the previous problems you discussed. And if you don't find time, we understand. We also cannot find time to do everything we'd like to do. I was deliberately not posting the problems, since that might look like a complaint. I'm not trying to get action. So what's the point? ... I provide this information only as an indicator of where there might be an opportunity to win more Windows users and lose fewer. That sounds good and honorable, but, in reality, you still haven't provided anything in your original post that helps. To me, as a writer, and as someone who taught English for years, it sounds more like a veiled way to make a complaint while trying to convince yourself and others you're trying to help. I would also wonder how the questions were asked. Were they asked in such a way that information was provided and was clear? To me, the real problem seems to be in the selection of the distro. I saw what you said about her running a BBS and other information, but that still does not mean that Debian is necessarily the best choice for her. I've found it's also a personality issue as well. I am, by passion, a writer. I'm also learning 3D animation so I can animate some of my stories. When I'm writing or doing animation or graphics work, I think completely differently then when I'm keeping my servers running. I've found that when I'm dealing with my server issues, I ask questions in one way and deal with people in one way, but when I'm dealing with workstation issues, my style is different. My server style works better on this list, but my I'm only an end user style works better with Ubunutu. I would dare say that if she had picked Ubuntu to test instead of Debian, she would likely have had a different experience. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike writes: I provide this information only as an indicator of where there might be an opportunity to win more Windows users and lose fewer. I don't see that you provided any useful information. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty wrote: So, please don't take this as a complaint from me, as it isn't. I'm simply informing the Debian forum of a situation. Wow. Mike takes the time to offer a common courtesy of informing the Debian community of how it's being perceived by Jane Average Girlfriend, and the community jumps all over him about various aspects. Folks! Don't read stuff between the lines that isn't there! Just take in the information. I daresay Mike is quite aware that we're a volunteer community that doesn't guarantee support, and that he's quite aware of distros like Ubuntu, etc. Like he said, he's not complaining, or asking for help, or asking for information; he's just saying that we have room for improvement. Granted, most of us know this, but unless you're thin-skinned (which sure seems to be the case) or being charged by the byte (yes, I know there are some of you out there), his email post doesn't hurt anyone, and it might actually serve as a reminder to go that extra mile to help keep the next waffling girlfriend (mmm-mm-mm, waffles and girlfriends ... yowsa!) in the Debian camp (mm-mm-mm, camping with girlfriends ..., and in the mornin', I'm makin' waffles!). Mike. I get it. I appreciate your information. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
John Hasler wrote:
I tried to reply off-list, but the email bounced.
Mike writes:
I provide this information only as an indicator of where there might be
an opportunity to win more Windows users and lose fewer.
I don't see that you provided any useful information.
Then it wasn't directed at you.
There are those here who have expressed a desire for Linux
to be a viable alternative to Windows for more users. It was
directed at those people.
I didn't intend to respond any further on the list, since
my statement has been seen, and I see no point in burdening
the list with arguments.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Kent West wrote: Like he said, he's not complaining, or asking for help, or asking for information; he's just saying that we have room for improvement. Well, yes, but it remains to be seen whether everyone considers this room for improvement. A lot of projects and products spend a lot of time working on non-goals; the question at hand is whether adoption by the level of user in question is or is not a goal. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Kent West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wow. Mike takes the time to offer a common courtesy of informing the Debian community of how it's being perceived by Jane Average Girlfriend, and the community jumps all over him about various aspects. Why was it courteous? Despite the polite tone, it basically came off sounding like Somebody doesn't like you but I won't tell you why. Haha! Unless there's at least some attempt at giving useful information, a post like really serves mostly as a way to make the recipient feel bad, and it's somewhat difficult to believe Mike didn't realize that. -Miles -- A zen-buddhist walked into a pizza shop and said, Make me one with everything. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007, Mike McCarty shared this with us all: --} Anyway, that's it, FWIW. --} As interesting as this appears Mike, it again shows the main difference between operating systems that supply everything a user requires, and one that supplies everything, but the user has to be willing to do a bit themselves. Sometimes wait a while even for acknowledgement, after much searching on their own first. It's interesting that in the most used operating system, if people can't do/view something they just don't do it and say so, and just keep going as best they can without ever resolving the situation. Some of these, sick of paying and still not being able to do something they want, move to open source alternatives and start learning how they work as they attempt to fix things. Usually only hindered by the fact they don't know what tool to use to do it. So not everyone should use Debian, or any other open source operating system. The people that find the environment congenial, if not comfortable, tend toward being willing to be inconvenienced a little, knowing there will be a solution, even enjoying he challenge. Even if the solution is difficult to find, must be waited for and needs to be worried at to discover. I have read where a long time Linux user wrote that he was sick of doing things open source. He just wanted to have an operating system to install and not need to tweak things, just install the software and have it working. Then work with it. I have a feeling that he didn't move into the shadow and look into the light. But if he did, it may have been because with age his thinking changed. It happens. There is not one system better than another, just different, like people are different, we each need to find what we can use and enjoy. So whatever your GF finds best is good. Isn't it? I don't think any operating systems advocates would like to keep her using it against her will. If she thinks of quitting the system because she cannot find the answer herself, or anyone able or willing to help her, then maybe she is not suited to use that system? To use open source you have to think about being open source, having a certain amount of aggravation with something that can be fixed and being one who perseveres. We have all had our frustrations at Debian as with every other operating system, open source or not. How often have we worried and googled a problem and weeks later found some obscure reference to it? Something done by default, that wasn't supposed to happen. Comment out a line in the configuration file and thing works. I think every person on this list has had that experience? Thanks for the heads up, but one is lost and ten are found. To each their own. Please wish her well from me at least. Be well, Charlie -- Registered Linux User:- 329524 +++ When both body and mind are at peace, all things appear as they are: perfect, complete, lacking nothing. DOGEN Debian - Just the best way to do magic. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike writes: There are those here who have expressed a desire for Linux to be a viable alternative to Windows for more users. It was directed at those people. You told us that some unnamed person had unidentified problems which they reported in some unknown way with reportedly unsatisfactory results. What use to us is that? -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
John Hasler wrote:
Mike writes:
There are those here who have expressed a desire for Linux to be a viable
alternative to Windows for more users. It was directed at those people.
You told us that some unnamed person had unidentified problems which they
reported in some unknown way with reportedly unsatisfactory results. What
use to us is that?
Once again, mail to you has bounced.
If you read here regularly, then you would have seen the reports,
because they were put here. There isn't any hope for response
from people who do not read or do not respond to what they read.
My only point was this: She's leaving Debian because she perceives
that it doesn't always just work, and when it doesn't, often there
isn't a fix easily available.
That's it.
For those who wish to know what has caused one user to buy Windows,
and might cause a class of similar users to do the same, that is useful
information. For those who don't care, it isn't.
You may decide for yourself which category you fall into.
I'm not responding further to you, unless you provide me with
an e-mail address which doesn't bounce.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike writes: Once again, mail to you has bounced. ?? If you read here regularly, then you would have seen the reports, I most likely did. So what? How am I to know which of the innumerable reports posted here you refer to? My only point was this: She's leaving Debian because she perceives that it doesn't always just work, and when it doesn't, often there isn't a fix easily available. _Nothing_ always just works. Some problems are insoluble. This is not news. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Mark Phillips wrote: Mike, you have to realize that support is provided by volunteers who have lives (families, children, jobs, little league, etc.) outside of supporting the software. There is no guarentee of any support when you install Debian. But it is there. You have to learn how to ask, and sometimes you have to ask several times before you get a response. Of course I recognize this. I told you, I'm not complaining. I have no oars in the water about this. I think what they're saying is, we're asking. You don't just send off a bug report and expect some help-desk monkey to jump. Often, you need to do some research and ask multiple questions in multiple venues. People aren't on the net all the time. Things go by without getting seen by the right pair of eyes. Linus says this is the same way it works in kernel hacking. You may have to bang on the door a number of times before you get his attention. fwiw, I've found a really good place to ask difficult questions is in debian-mentors. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
s. keeling wrote:
[snip]
fwiw, I've found a really good place to ask difficult questions is in
debian-mentors.
Thanks for the pointer. If I can convince her not to wipe
Debian from the disc, I think I'll subscribe there as well.
I don't have much hopes on that point, however.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Mike Bird wrote: On Tuesday 25 September 2007 12:45, Mike McCarty wrote: I'm not trying to be mean, either. I'm reporting a single event. We're all volunteers here. You too. If you find time I guess some of us would appreciate your posting links to the previous I was deliberately not posting the problems, since that might look like a complaint. I'm not trying to get action. Argh! We're Debian. We're trying to get action! fsck it! groups.google.com -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] site:lists.debian.org Plenty of stuff, lots of replies and multipost threads. Can't see any bug reports. Guess it's off to the BTS to search there. Drat. How 'bout that? Search of the BTS for submitter reports no reports found. Huh? What address did you submit them from? Btw, THIS IS ALL VOLUNTEER WORK HERE. fyi. I provide this information only as an indicator of where there might be an opportunity to win more Windows users and lose fewer. I'd rather Windows just shrivelled up and died, but I don't really care. If she wants to use their junk, that's her problem. We're allowed to be fools nowadays. Debian, on the other hand, I do care about and want to help fixing anything I can. *Lots* of others in this thread are saying the same thing. Problem? What problem? I can't see it! Where is it? Nobody can fix what they can't even see. You're not helping. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Martin Marcher wrote: Why is it that simple statments, preceded by disclaimers indicating that they are not complaints, get treated as complaints? Hello, I'm interested in the job offer you posted on Sarcasm is unbecoming, especially since I am a disinterested third party. I thought it was pretty funny. I like his rate too. I'm gonna have to talk to my recruiter. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John Hasler wrote: I don't see that you provided any useful information. Then it wasn't directed at you. There are those here who have expressed a desire for Linux to be a viable alternative to Windows for more users. It was directed at those people. After walking in from a day of my kids' soccer matches I noticed this thread and feel I really must post a comment. I may be very late to this, and if so I apologize, but it just seems to me that there is likely a miscommunication going on here. I can't help but think that most people on this list would actually very much welcome the criticism which seems to be on offer regarding this situation, but surely everybody would also like to know what they did wrong, so to speak. I for one get at least a hundred or two messages on this list per day, probably more, and certainly wouldn't know from the above references which posts or questions were those being talked about here. Really, with everything being discussed here how could everybody notice and remember every thread? I also think everyone here has a desire for Linux to be a viable alternative to Windows (I happen to believe it already is one since I in fact use it instead of that OS) and so would certainly assume your comments were directed at them. The people on this list are here quite obviously because they believe in what is done here, and that seems to most often be offer help to others. But, honestly, regardless of how well-intentioned the posts, just how can anyone improve with such esoteric comments? I believe that is what the poster above was saying, and most likely you understood him as being defensive or confrontational. I really don't think the people here are trying to be in any way argumentative, but rather are asking for more info, even if you aren't going to be here to hear the answers. It is just a natural desire to see what mistakes were made, specifically, so that they are not made again. I personally think it is a wonderful sentiment to fill people in on a failure, but if nobody can know how they failed, then really what good is the information? At least that is how I would percieve this situation. Patrick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Roger B.A. Klorese [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Kent West wrote: Like he said, he's not complaining, or asking for help, or asking for information; he's just saying that we have room for improvement. Well, yes, but it remains to be seen whether everyone considers this room for improvement. A lot of projects and products spend a lot of time working on non-goals; the question at hand is whether adoption by the level of user in question is or is not a goal. Well, he did clarify that she's not a total computer noob. I think she'd be most happy on an iMac. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
cothrige wrote:
After walking in from a day of my kids' soccer matches I noticed this
thread and feel I really must post a comment. I may be very late to
It seems like just one of those things, doesn't it :-)
[snip]
which posts or questions were those being talked about here. Really,
with everything being discussed here how could everybody notice and
remember every thread?
Of course not.
I also think everyone here has a desire for Linux to be a viable
alternative to Windows (I happen to believe it already is one since I in
fact use it instead of that OS) and so would certainly assume your
Umm, some comments I've received cause me to believe that not
everyone here is like that.
In any case, my desire was not to ask for help, as that's
already been done before. My intent was to inform of what
kinds of considerations went into the decision of one Debian
user to switch to Windows XP. I wasn't making a last moment
plea for help to try to keep her on Debian, nor trying to
criticize Debian devel group nor any of the users nor other
members of this forum. I'm not sure but what her reaction would
be the same for any Linux distro. Ecah has its strong points
and weak points. I've used several, and none is clearly
better than all the others for everyone.
[snip]
I believe that is what the poster above was saying, and most likely you
understood him as being defensive or confrontational. I really don't
think the people here are trying to be in any way argumentative, but
rather are asking for more info, even if you aren't going to be here to
hear the answers. It is just a natural desire to see what mistakes were
See my other message which lists the challenges for Debian with
her hardware setup. They have been mentioned before (except for
the RAM upgrade, which occurred just a few weeks ago), but I
repost them just for those who have interest.
Whether having fixes by Saturday will cause her to retain
Debian is a debatable point. I suspect that Windows XP is
going on this machine, and that's the end of the matter.
Even if Debian survives as a boot option, and the machine
becomes dual boot, I suspect that Debian will not get booted
very often, if at all.
I intend to make a backup before doing anything drastic,
at least. I may just make a tar of the entire disc using
Knoppix or sth like that as well.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
Roger B.A. Klorese wrote:
Well, yes, but it remains to be seen whether everyone considers this
room for improvement. A lot of projects and products spend a lot of
time working on non-goals; the question at hand is whether adoption by
the level of user in question is or is not a goal.
I'm sure Debian doesn't depend on any one user. I'm also
sure that she's not the only one like her.
Anyway, I think this thread has probably already gone on
too long.
Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 11:55:26AM -0500, Mike McCarty wrote: I have some feedback about my GF who uses Debian at my suggestion. I have no irons in the fire on this one, as I don't use Debian, though I do administer her machine for her. So, please don't take this as a complaint from me, as it isn't. I'm simply informing the Debian forum of a situation. She's had four problems with using Debian on her machine, and support response from this forum has been somewhat less than she had hoped for. There are different levels of support for what ever you use. Microsoft and its partners get the specs they need and produce reasonable support for hardware and since they are not open source, they can not be improved by others. So driver support can vary greatly. Software is in a similar situation as is the Operating system. And commercial support cost real money. IIRC MS had something like 150 USD for one support call and there is no gauruntee of the outcome. But if the issue is hardware support, then driver support is going to be, on average, useable out-of-the-box. And similarly if you have software needs that align with already existing products, then that too will work out-of-the-box. Now distros are of varying quality and have varying support. Debian is known to have mostly volunteer support with commercial support mostly for server use which would probably have costs on par with windows server support. If you used Ubuntu, you'd have out-of-the-box a commercial support option targeted for home/soho users which IIRC costs 150 USD/ year, which seems quite reasonable. Now with Free software, at present, there are many problems that simply have no solution regardless of which one you choose and so the only 'support' option is to pay a large sum of money or wait until that magic day. I recently heard that 'evince' now support the ability to fill-in pdf forms. I have wanted this for some years and only using Adobe´s regular product to do this with the help of WINE, now, as of this month, this feture is part of a free software tool. One of the issue with MS and Apple is they have limited support for hardware and software. So if you have something less that 4 years old. you should be ok. But the farther out you go, there is an increasing change that floss support will be on-par or better. So if your SO buys/has recent HW and has software needs in-line with current products, then XP may be the way to go. The benefits of FLOSS are know to you and you may have explained them to your SO but if she can't get her work done, that is the ultimate arbitrator. snip I used the official reporting tool on one of the problems, and we were not even accorded the courtesy of a response indicating that the report had been received and was going to be acted upon. The tool did confirm that a report had been made, but that was all. I've seen no indication from Debian that any progress has been made. One of the issue discussed on -devel was something similar. Some feel that every bug report should have a human responding saying 'thanks for your bug report´, other wanted an automated response. It was noted that not all bug reports are equal, so it was mentioned that if a DD wanted better info, they should send out a message asking for it and make 'contact' with the bug reporter because users dont feel appreciated when they are not contacted and thanked and made to feel an equal part of Debian. So a thanked user is more apt to give more bug reports and more likely to give better reports if asked by a nice dd. But since its not 'policy', its not something that is required. There is the obvious situation where DD have real lives and can not respond to every user, But some said that they should respond within say 1 or 2 week if possible, if not able to sooner. Someone suggest that there to a team of people whose job is to monitor new bugs and acknowledge users contributions and triage bugs with the users help. So in the area of user-bts-DD interaction, there is room more improvement. Perhaphs the paid support of Canonical would fill this gap, thus the Ubuntu recommendation. One final note, at least she is aware of the existance of FLOSS and that it was able to fulfill most of her needs and when those issues that she had are resolved, she might be game to take the plunge. It also means that she is one more person who can be witness to the fact that FLOSS is not what the general population thinks it is, useless and not ready for general use. cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keyserver: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | |join the new debian-community.org to help Debian! | |___ Unless I ask to be CCd, assume I am subscribed ___|
Re: Debian may lose a user
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 09:17:05PM -0500, cothrige wrote: Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip I believe that is what the poster above was saying, and most likely you understood him as being defensive or confrontational. I really don't think the people here are trying to be in any way argumentative, but rather are asking for more info, even if you aren't going to be here to hear the answers. It is just a natural desire to see what mistakes were made, specifically, so that they are not made again. I personally think it is a wonderful sentiment to fill people in on a failure, but if nobody can know how they failed, then really what good is the information? At least that is how I would percieve this situation. I dont'think anyone here did anything wrong and I dont think he was implying that. There are many thing that a list like this can do like respond to users request for help and provide insights, answers or alternatives. But maybe this problems the person had have no current answer at all or the one person who knew the answer missed the post. One thing that many people want is an answer in a limited amount of time, this list is not suited to a demanding user who perhaps will lose a client or money as a result, that is the domain of paid support. If the issue can be worked around or tolerated for a few months, then this list is fine. Like many DD, we too must balance our lives and trying to fix ever users issue would drive folks to drink, so there has to be an expectation that we list readers will miss stuff. This is no ones fault. Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keyserver: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | |join the new debian-community.org to help Debian! | |___ Unless I ask to be CCd, assume I am subscribed ___| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
