Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Dne, 18. 10. 2014 03:20:25 je Joel Rees napisal(a): When I look at systemd, the fundamental design and structure fly in the face of reason. I'm not trying to be insulting when I say that. For some of us it really does fly in the face of reason. I second that. Some terms that have been used to describe engineers who would try to put too much into core processes include arrogant, prima donna, and trying to defy the law of gravity without wings. These terms were not intended to insult. They were intended to point out that, as we gained real-world engineering experience, we would tend to quit doing such things. In my view, any personal attacks on Poettering, Sievers et al. were largely misplaced and unwarranted for. And I'm not saying this out of political correctness. I'm saying that out of practical reasons: such attacks only shifted the focus from the merits, or demerits, of their software, which should actually be our only concern as Linux users. If they were not intended to insult, they should not have insulted. If they were intended to point out a point, they should have done so. I have no problem whatsoever with primadonnas. My problems in free software, if any, are not with primadonass, but with defective software. KDE developers turned into primadonnas but that, per se, was no problem for me. I just switched from using KDE to using Gnome. When Gnome3 developers turned into primadonnas, I in turn pirouetted to LXDE. As long as there is a place to run to, I have nothing against primadonnas. Not just personally, even on a professional level: they should be entitled to developing their own projects the way they see fit. Nobody, and I say nobody (except their bosses if they have any) should tell them what to do and how. I would even go as far as paraphrasing Voltaire: I don't agree with the software you're developing, but I'll do anything to defend your right to develop it. On the other hand, I as a user am entitled to dump their products and search for alternatives any time I see fit. We hope that systemd will improve. Business-types seem to like the stuff it provides. But it's going to take major re-design to make it reliable. As engineers, we wanted systemd to go through that re-design in experimental distros, not in mainstream distros. As a user, there's only a minor note I would add: let business types have their stuff. But let us, more minimalist users, have ours: lean, wieldy, fast systems which can fly even on a yesteryear's computer. In the long run, I don't believe these two opposing trends can be reconciled. In all probability, the Linux ecosystem will gradually split into two branches: on the one hand glossy Windows/Mac-like systems entangled with huge agglomerates such as systemd/KDE/Gnome, on the other hand stripped-down environments intended for embedded systems, servers and essentialist CLI users who occasionally startx a lightweight window manager. It would warm my heart if, five years from now, I could see Debian still catering to both those branches, just as it has done to this day (various kernels, several architectures, a myriad of window managers etc etc.), and continuing to give life to a mind-boggling undergrowth of blends, derivatives, projects, specialized distros ... The way I understand what happened with Fedora, management at RedHat decided that they weren't willing to be patient enough for systemd to happen in an experimental distribution. Similar things have happened and will happen in the future. I don't think Debian has anything to fear, really. Debian is a point of reference. People look up to it. It is huge -- more than we are aware. People wait for Debian to make decisions before they make their own. It has lead the ecosystem, or a large part thereof, at times without even realizing it. Not at all by being loud -- but being stable, wise, rational and passionate. Not only by delivering arguably the most reliable distribution software-wise, but also by cultivating arguably the best community developer- and user-wise. I would love to see Debian take that lead again, and refuse being bullied by anyone. Sorry for the wall of rambling text. -- Kinda regards, my beast washes Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix Oozer #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1416327203.9098.0@compax
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 03:16:59PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: Andrei POPESCU wrote: - the LSB is a joint project of several Linux distributions. Ironically: The LSB has been criticized for not taking input from projects, most notably the Debian project, outside the sphere of its member companies. Hmm... kind of seems appropriate then, to discussion about systemd. Did you note the word Ironically ? -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141023100730.GU21183@tal
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 09:32:31AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 08:25:31AM +0200, Ludovic Meyer wrote: Even with the addition 10 to 20 people posting on systemd, it shouldn't be a issue. Andrei's point was not that the list /infrastructure/ was at risk, but that debian-user - this list - was essentially subject to a denial of service, because it's main purpose - user support - was impeded by the amount of systemd/-vote watching posts taking place. Particularly all those posts by folks saying don't talk about systemd - seems to me there's about a 3-1 multiplier effect. Complain about systemd (or even ask about a problem with it) and 3-5 people immediately weigh in to simply say shut up. Talk about DoS. Can you cite a post where this actually happened? Posts about problems (i.e. bugs) are welcomed. Possibly it got messed up in a thread taken over by the anti-systemd vigilantes? -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141023110911.GD29294@tal
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 04:49:48PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/20/2014 02:35 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not achieving anything. ~OR!~ List archives get refreshed every 20 minutes. is a more likely reason for the list to go down just for a bit, especially with the higher than normal activity. I doubt any of the 4chan types to give a whit, one way or the other, as we're not exactly clubbing baby seals here. Maybe there is a GNU/Low Orbit Ion Cannon?? That would be more likely. chuckles :) Ric You must have missed the memo : http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201410/2014101801-beware-of-trolls---do-not-feed.html I didn't found any communication from the DSA, but I wouldn't be surprised that some guy decided to retaliate on Debian because of idiotic reasons. And that's why the server was down for a while. And the server is fully able to handle the load of debian-user, given that it handle all others lists as well : https://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html Even with the addition 10 to 20 people posting on systemd, it shouldn't be a issue. -- l. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141021062531.gb29...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 08:25:31AM +0200, Ludovic Meyer wrote: Even with the addition 10 to 20 people posting on systemd, it shouldn't be a issue. Andrei's point was not that the list /infrastructure/ was at risk, but that debian-user - this list - was essentially subject to a denial of service, because it's main purpose - user support - was impeded by the amount of systemd/-vote watching posts taking place. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141021065335.ga28...@chew.redmars.org
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:25:31 +0200 Ludovic Meyer ludo.v.me...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 04:49:48PM -0400, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/20/2014 02:35 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not achieving anything. ~OR!~ List archives get refreshed every 20 minutes. is a more likely reason for the list to go down just for a bit, especially with the higher than normal activity. I doubt any of the 4chan types to give a whit, one way or the other, as we're not exactly clubbing baby seals here. Maybe there is a GNU/Low Orbit Ion Cannon?? That would be more likely. chuckles :) Ric You must have missed the memo : http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201410/2014101801-beware-of-trolls---do-not-feed.html The subject of the preceding article link hasn't posted in several days. I know that because, no matter what name he uses, his posts are immediately recognizeable. So what's the purpose of your putting this link in your email? SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141021025038.4a3b5...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 08:25:31AM +0200, Ludovic Meyer wrote: Even with the addition 10 to 20 people posting on systemd, it shouldn't be a issue. Andrei's point was not that the list /infrastructure/ was at risk, but that debian-user - this list - was essentially subject to a denial of service, because it's main purpose - user support - was impeded by the amount of systemd/-vote watching posts taking place. Particularly all those posts by folks saying don't talk about systemd - seems to me there's about a 3-1 multiplier effect. Complain about systemd (or even ask about a problem with it) and 3-5 people immediately weigh in to simply say shut up. Talk about DoS. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5446606f.6090...@meetinghouse.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:50:02 PM UTC+5:30, Jimmy Johnson wrote: Slavko wrote: Ahoj, napísal: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. All testing's users which are doing testing of the software and are reporting the bugs are working on, despite if they are in some team or not. But now it seems, that the regular users are on the last position of the interest and particular part of the Social contract are only words. This is the reason why i suspend all my contributions for now. I know, that the Debian was here without me and will be here without me too, but i see no enough interest to contribute now. First i was in doubts: is this only my wounded ego? But by last months doings i lost any doubts. ..the small man stands defiantly in front of the moving tank waving his flag of freedom..I don't blame you for moving out of the way, maybe some pieces will be left and you will still be here to help put them pieces back together again, or something new and better will come along, have faith my friend. It seems that https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/ is down right now. This case seems to be generating enough interest for it to register as a DOS (attack) on the servers!?! Heh! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/a2c04792-3aee-49cd-a0b4-874001eff...@googlegroups.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Le 18.10.2014 07:06, Steve Litt a écrit : If they vote no on the GR, then I think that unless Red Hat succeeds in systemdizing X itself, we'll (meaning those of us who care) will replace systemd-contaminated software with init-agnostic software. And for sure, boycott all systemd-dependent software to the best of our ability. Did they successed with wayland? I just took a look at weston and it seems to be linked to stuffD... and with Dbus, when I thought I had read time ago things about them using a home-made bus, because they thought dbus was too heavy... I hope I'm wrong? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/aab44600d5a21e53baffe46596928...@neutralite.org
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 20/10/14 04:03, Martin Read wrote: On 19/10/14 17:45, Rusi Mody wrote: As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks off your seafront house? If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a person (as far as I know!) Debian is a project created by a group of people. It is not a force of nature. And user/tester rights? Problematic to a degree all consumers are users and can/do provide feedback. I'm not unsympathetic, just unsure of where the responsibility lies, particularly with FOSS - and wary of unrealistic expectations. Since analogies are being deployed:- If I find a piece of machinery unsatisfactory I will let the manufacturer know - but getting a say in the direction of the company, even when overlooking the problems of satisfying a diversity of opinion, is not possible without at least the purchase of a share or a position in the company. I could organise a protest in the car park - but if my demands are unreasonable I may succeed in changing the company direction at the cost of driving the business - out of business. Just some thoughts on the difficulties that would have to be dealt with to achieve a successful outcome - for all involved. Kind regards -- They say we destroy the things we love, but really the things we love destroy us. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54441fd1.3080...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Scott Ferguson wrote: On 20/10/14 04:03, Martin Read wrote: On 19/10/14 17:45, Rusi Mody wrote: As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks off your seafront house? If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a person (as far as I know!) Debian is a project created by a group of people. It is not a force of nature. And user/tester rights? Problematic to a degree all consumers are users and can/do provide feedback. I'm not unsympathetic, just unsure of where the responsibility lies, particularly with FOSS - and wary of unrealistic expectations. Since analogies are being deployed:- If I find a piece of machinery unsatisfactory I will let the manufacturer know - but getting a say in the direction of the company, even when overlooking the problems of satisfying a diversity of opinion, is not possible without at least the purchase of a share or a position in the company. I could organise a protest in the car park - but if my demands are unreasonable I may succeed in changing the company direction at the cost of driving the business - out of business. Just some thoughts on the difficulties that would have to be dealt with to achieve a successful outcome - for all involved. Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet. So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards. With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux). Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/544512e4.9060...@meetinghouse.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 20/10/14 01:28, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Did they successed with wayland? I just took a look at weston and it seems to be linked to stuffD... and with Dbus, when I thought I had read time ago things about them using a home-made bus, because they thought dbus was too heavy... I hope I'm wrong? A default build of the Weston reference Wayland compositor will link against libdbus, because the default build includes support for interacting with logind. It *appears* (from the options offered by the configure script) that building Weston with dbus and logind support is optional. Not being involved in the project, I have no information about how well-tested that configuration is and will leave any further commentary on the subject to people who have the relevant knowledge. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54450388.1020...@zen.co.uk
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote: On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:14 AM, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: We were objecting to the ad hominem unpleasantness and destruction of the list. Let me try to explain (yet again, sorry, but re-wording things sometimes does help) my point of view and why some of what I have said should not be considered ad hominem. (Some will say pessimistic, I won't argue with that, even though I think pessimism is warranted.) [big snip] Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground antics? Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the -offtopic list. Currently one of Debian's main support channels is being DOSed with these debates. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Lu, 20 oct 14, 09:49:24, Miles Fidelman wrote: Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet. So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards. Not a good example: Ethernet is an IEEE standard and as far as I understand from Wikipedia this is not a user association, but a professional association. With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux). Would you please be so kind to explain how systemd breaks LSB? Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:15:47 +0300 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote: Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground antics? Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the -offtopic list. Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the bus, petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance. Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves, reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola, and the Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to: A) Reach real people involved in the situation B) Build a community Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to our intelligence. You know it, and we know it. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141020135237.39350...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Sorry about the newbie question but, can I vote somewhere to preserve the choice of init systems ? I would like to firm my position, not against systemd but, instead, in favor of the preservation of Debian's stability and future, by being able to choose a init system during the installation (d-i). I'm trying systemd these days but, I'm not liking it (too many bugs popping up everywhere), maybe in 2016~2020 it becomes really stable... I don't want to be a systemd guinea pig. Cheers! Thiago On 20 October 2014 15:52, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:15:47 +0300 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote: Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground antics? Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the -offtopic list. Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the bus, petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance. Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves, reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola, and the Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to: A) Reach real people involved in the situation B) Build a community Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to our intelligence. You know it, and we know it. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141020135237.39350...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 20 oct 14, 09:49:24, Miles Fidelman wrote: Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet. So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards. Not a good example: Ethernet is an IEEE standard and as far as I understand from Wikipedia this is not a user association, but a professional association. With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux). Would you please be so kind to explain how systemd breaks LSB? These are both situations where folks other than those who do the work have a lot of say in what work gets done. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5445542f@meetinghouse.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Unfortunately, unless you're a Debian Developer, the answer is no - other than with your feet - to one of the dwindling number of distros that make it policy to stay away from systemd. Sigh Miles Fidelman Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: Sorry about the newbie question but, can I vote somewhere to preserve the choice of init systems ? I would like to firm my position, not against systemd but, instead, in favor of the preservation of Debian's stability and future, by being able to choose a init system during the installation (d-i). I'm trying systemd these days but, I'm not liking it (too many bugs popping up everywhere), maybe in 2016~2020 it becomes really stable... I don't want to be a systemd guinea pig. Cheers! Thiago On 20 October 2014 15:52, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com mailto:sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:15:47 +0300 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com mailto:andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote: Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground antics? Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the -offtopic list. Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the bus, petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance. Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves, reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola, and the Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to: A) Reach real people involved in the situation B) Build a community Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to our intelligence. You know it, and we know it. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org mailto:debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org mailto:listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141020135237.39350...@mydesq2.domain.cxm -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5445550b.9070...@meetinghouse.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Lu, 20 oct 14, 13:52:37, Steve Litt wrote: Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the -offtopic list. Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the bus, petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance. You're free to boycott Debian or systemd or whatever. Civil disobedience doesn't really apply here, since you're not a citizen of Debian, i.e. you can leave at any time, you don't pay taxes, etc., you're only using what Debian provides for free (in both meanings of the word). If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not achieving anything. Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves, reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola, and the Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to: A) Reach real people involved in the situation A simple announcement like hey, we want to discuss 'this' and 'that' over 'there', if you're interested join us would have been as effective. B) Build a community By destroying another one? Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to our intelligence. You know it, and we know it. No, actually I don't. Call me stupid if you want, but I fail to see how having such discussions elsewhere is insulting. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Okay, no problem... Tks for your reply!:-) On 20 October 2014 16:31, Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote: Unfortunately, unless you're a Debian Developer, the answer is no - other than with your feet - to one of the dwindling number of distros that make it policy to stay away from systemd. Sigh Miles Fidelman Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: Sorry about the newbie question but, can I vote somewhere to preserve the choice of init systems ? I would like to firm my position, not against systemd but, instead, in favor of the preservation of Debian's stability and future, by being able to choose a init system during the installation (d-i). I'm trying systemd these days but, I'm not liking it (too many bugs popping up everywhere), maybe in 2016~2020 it becomes really stable... I don't want to be a systemd guinea pig. Cheers! Thiago On 20 October 2014 15:52, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com mailto: sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 17:15:47 +0300 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com mailto:andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote: Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground antics? Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the -offtopic list. Sure it can. Every single status-quo supporter in history has told protestors the same thing: If you want to ride on the front of the bus, petition the county, but don't do boycotts and civil disobediance. Yes, if we all wanted to have a polite discussion amongst ourselves, reaching nobody but those wanting to discuss cars, Obama, Ebola, and the Mideast, we certainly could go on the offtopic list. But we want to: A) Reach real people involved in the situation B) Build a community Frankly, telling us we can do it on the offtopic list is an insult to our intelligence. You know it, and we know it. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org mailto:debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org mailto:listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141020135237.39350...@mydesq2.domain.cxm -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5445550b.9070...@meetinghouse.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Lu, 20 oct 14, 14:27:59, Miles Fidelman wrote: Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 20 oct 14, 09:49:24, Miles Fidelman wrote: Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet. So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards. Not a good example: Ethernet is an IEEE standard and as far as I understand from Wikipedia this is not a user association, but a professional association. With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux). Would you please be so kind to explain how systemd breaks LSB? These are both situations where folks other than those who do the work have a lot of say in what work gets done. According to Wikipedia: - the IEEE has about 425000 members. Do you mean none of them are actually working in the industry? See highly unlikely to me. - the LSB is a joint project of several Linux distributions. Ironically: The LSB has been criticized for not taking input from projects, most notably the Debian project, outside the sphere of its member companies. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 20 oct 14, 14:27:59, Miles Fidelman wrote: Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 20 oct 14, 09:49:24, Miles Fidelman wrote: Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet. So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards. Not a good example: Ethernet is an IEEE standard and as far as I understand from Wikipedia this is not a user association, but a professional association. With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux). Would you please be so kind to explain how systemd breaks LSB? These are both situations where folks other than those who do the work have a lot of say in what work gets done. According to Wikipedia: - the IEEE has about 425000 members. Do you mean none of them are actually working in the industry? See highly unlikely to me. - the LSB is a joint project of several Linux distributions. Ironically: The LSB has been criticized for not taking input from projects, most notably the Debian project, outside the sphere of its member companies. Hmm... kind of seems appropriate then, to discussion about systemd. Cheers, Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54455fab.2060...@meetinghouse.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/19/2014 04:32 PM, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 20/10/14 04:03, Martin Read wrote: On 19/10/14 17:45, Rusi Mody wrote: As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks off your seafront house? If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a person (as far as I know!) Debian is a project created by a group of people. It is not a force of nature. And user/tester rights? Problematic to a degree all consumers are users and can/do provide feedback. I'm not unsympathetic, just unsure of where the responsibility lies, particularly with FOSS - and wary of unrealistic expectations. Since analogies are being deployed:- If I find a piece of machinery unsatisfactory I will let the manufacturer know - but getting a say in the direction of the company, even when overlooking the problems of satisfying a diversity of opinion, is not possible without at least the purchase of a share or a position in the company. I could organise a protest in the car park - but if my demands are unreasonable I may succeed in changing the company direction at the cost of driving the business - out of business. Just some thoughts on the difficulties that would have to be dealt with to achieve a successful outcome - for all involved. Scott, that can't be right. It makes too much sense. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54456f26.3060...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/20/2014 01:27 AM, Rusi Mody wrote: On Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:50:02 PM UTC+5:30, Jimmy Johnson wrote: Slavko wrote: Ahoj, napísal: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. All testing's users which are doing testing of the software and are reporting the bugs are working on, despite if they are in some team or not. But now it seems, that the regular users are on the last position of the interest and particular part of the Social contract are only words. This is the reason why i suspend all my contributions for now. I know, that the Debian was here without me and will be here without me too, but i see no enough interest to contribute now. First i was in doubts: is this only my wounded ego? But by last months doings i lost any doubts. ..the small man stands defiantly in front of the moving tank waving his flag of freedom..I don't blame you for moving out of the way, maybe some pieces will be left and you will still be here to help put them pieces back together again, or something new and better will come along, have faith my friend. It seems that https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/ is down right now. This case seems to be generating enough interest for it to register as a DOS (attack) on the servers!?! Heh! It's back up. The newer threads are titled re: re-proposal followed by Amendment (Re: Re-Proposal) now, while Peter Kremer has an exciting investment proposal for us. You must have tried to access during an update period (last was 4:00PM). The last entry as of now: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00255.html references Lan's contention that IMO summary lines should certainly not be written by opponents of the proposed option. I think I will better spend my time watching mold grow on the fallen autumn leaves, while drinking an diet orange soda. ;) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/544572fe.7010...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/20/2014 10:15 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Sb, 18 oct 14, 10:20:25, Joel Rees wrote: On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:14 AM, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: We were objecting to the ad hominem unpleasantness and destruction of the list. Let me try to explain (yet again, sorry, but re-wording things sometimes does help) my point of view and why some of what I have said should not be considered ad hominem. (Some will say pessimistic, I won't argue with that, even though I think pessimism is warranted.) [big snip] Does this help explain why what appears to some as mere turf battles and childish name-calling, etc., is a bit more than playground antics? Not to me. All these discussions could very well happen on the -offtopic list. Currently one of Debian's main support channels is being DOSed with these debates. I wonder if they are pro or con the proposal or the re:proposal? :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5445735a.2040...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/20/2014 02:35 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not achieving anything. ~OR!~ List archives get refreshed every 20 minutes. is a more likely reason for the list to go down just for a bit, especially with the higher than normal activity. I doubt any of the 4chan types to give a whit, one way or the other, as we're not exactly clubbing baby seals here. Maybe there is a GNU/Low Orbit Ion Cannon?? That would be more likely. chuckles :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5445756c.4020...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Lu, 20 oct 14, 16:49:48, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/20/2014 02:35 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not achieving anything. ~OR!~ List archives get refreshed every 20 minutes. is a more likely reason for the list to go down just for a bit, especially with the higher than normal activity. I doubt any of the 4chan types to give a whit, one way or the other, as we're not exactly clubbing baby seals here. Maybe there is a GNU/Low Orbit Ion Cannon?? That would be more likely. chuckles :) Ric I meant debian-user, as in: most traffic is now about systemd instead of supporting users with problems. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/20/2014 04:54 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 20 oct 14, 16:49:48, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/20/2014 02:35 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: If you mean you are actually DOSing Debian's support channels just to make you're point that's likely to get you banned instead, besides not achieving anything. ~OR!~ List archives get refreshed every 20 minutes. is a more likely reason for the list to go down just for a bit, especially with the higher than normal activity. I doubt any of the 4chan types to give a whit, one way or the other, as we're not exactly clubbing baby seals here. Maybe there is a GNU/Low Orbit Ion Cannon?? That would be more likely. chuckles :) Ric I meant debian-user, as in: most traffic is now about systemd instead of supporting users with problems. Heh, that's another Low Orbit Ion Cannon. But, the OP presented a link to the Debian-Vote channel being down, if I recall correctly. Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54457b93.9040...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 21/10/14 00:49, Miles Fidelman wrote: Scott Ferguson wrote: On 20/10/14 04:03, Martin Read wrote: On 19/10/14 17:45, Rusi Mody wrote: As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks off your seafront house? If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a person (as far as I know!) Debian is a project created by a group of people. It is not a force of nature. And user/tester rights? Problematic to a degree all consumers are users and can/do provide feedback. I'm not unsympathetic, just unsure of where the responsibility lies, particularly with FOSS - and wary of unrealistic expectations. Since analogies are being deployed:- If I find a piece of machinery unsatisfactory I will let the manufacturer know - but getting a say in the direction of the company, even when overlooking the problems of satisfying a diversity of opinion, is not possible without at least the purchase of a share or a position in the company. I could organise a protest in the car park - but if my demands are unreasonable I may succeed in changing the company direction at the cost of driving the business - out of business. Just some thoughts on the difficulties that would have to be dealt with to achieve a successful outcome - for all involved. Well, it's worth noting that in many areas of endeavor, users, or user communities, write specifications/standards that all players have to meet. So, for example, when one buys an ethernet card - vendors really do not really have a choice as to whether or not to implement the standards. True - though I don't see the relevance to Debian users. The standards that Debian uses - and there are many - couldn't be defined as written by Debian users. With Linux distros, including the kernel and implementing the LSB are pretty much things everyone has to meet (with a few notable exceptions like GNU/kFreeBSD - though arguably that's not Linux). Agreed Miles, and I don't mean to overlook the huge advantage that the (F)OSS model has over closed-source in it's testing userbase. That still doesn't translate into entitlement. Tail wagging dog?. Analogies have their limitations, but... In the 80s a Sydney Mental Hospital experimented with letting the patients vote on the medication they were given. It's not a system still in use - despite successful outcomes in a small percentage of patients. A problem with trying to please everyone due to the nature of diversity (and that xy thing). Like democracy the Debian system of letting developers decide what they develop is not a perfect model, but it's the least worst one we've got - and it's the developers model. We as users, are free to suggest, but might be foolish to force. Words that springs to mind are guidance, feedback, and symbiotic, softer terms than obligation and entitlement or debt. Though the military may disagree - enforced freedom is oxymoronic. At which I'll leave my part in this discussion. Miles Fidelman Kind regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5445a2e3.8080...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 21/10/14 05:24, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: Sorry about the newbie question but, can I vote somewhere to preserve the choice of init systems ? http://boycottsystemd.org/lennart1.png ? ---8---8 Please don't top post. Kind regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5445a726.1030...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Ahoj, Dňa Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:09:59 -0400 Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org napísal: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. All testing's users which are doing testing of the software and are reporting the bugs are working on, despite if they are in some team or not. But now it seems, that the regular users are on the last position of the interest and particular part of the Social contract are only words. This is the reason why i suspend all my contributions for now. I know, that the Debian was here without me and will be here without me too, but i see no enough interest to contribute now. First i was in doubts: is this only my wounded ego? But by last months doings i lost any doubts. regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Slavko wrote: Ahoj, napísal: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. All testing's users which are doing testing of the software and are reporting the bugs are working on, despite if they are in some team or not. But now it seems, that the regular users are on the last position of the interest and particular part of the Social contract are only words. This is the reason why i suspend all my contributions for now. I know, that the Debian was here without me and will be here without me too, but i see no enough interest to contribute now. First i was in doubts: is this only my wounded ego? But by last months doings i lost any doubts. Hi Slavko You think you are the only one with concerns? That would be very strange!! My summary: MS - Vista Gnome -- Gnome 3 Ubuntu -- pulseaudio And until now debian -- systemd All likely mistakes -- expensive ones. But as can be seen on the vote mailing list even though its a bit late, the devs are seeing ways to contain the mistake. As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks off your seafront house? If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a person (as far as I know!) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/a18482bc-86fd-4058-838f-696444ba3...@googlegroups.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 19/10/14 17:45, Rusi Mody wrote: As for 'wounded ego': Do you have a wounded ego if a dead branch falls and smashes the windshield of your car? Or a Tsunami knocks off your seafront house? If you are taking offense, who are you offended by? Debian is not a person (as far as I know!) Debian is a project created by a group of people. It is not a force of nature. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5443eef9.2020...@zen.co.uk
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 3:42 PM, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote: The fun part will be to see who actually steps up to the plate to do all of the extra work. Especially amongst all of those pledged seconds. I hope someone is keeping a list. :) Ric From what I read, it will be one all debian devs (package maintainers) to fully support all supported init systems in debian in any packages that they maintain. I see nothing wrong with this. It isn't forcing anything on anyone, in that any debian package maintainer is free to step down (stop maintaining debian packages) any time they want. It is simply a rule of being a debian package maintainer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5443f422.5050...@libertytrek.org
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Slavko wrote: Ahoj, Dňa Fri, 17 Oct 2014 16:09:59 -0400 Dan Ritter d...@randomstring.org napísal: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. All testing's users which are doing testing of the software and are reporting the bugs are working on, despite if they are in some team or not. But now it seems, that the regular users are on the last position of the interest and particular part of the Social contract are only words. This is the reason why i suspend all my contributions for now. I know, that the Debian was here without me and will be here without me too, but i see no enough interest to contribute now. First i was in doubts: is this only my wounded ego? But by last months doings i lost any doubts. ..the small man stands defiantly in front of the moving tank waving his flag of freedom..I don't blame you for moving out of the way, maybe some pieces will be left and you will still be here to help put them pieces back together again, or something new and better will come along, have faith my friend. -- Jimmy Johnson Debian Sid - KDE 4.14.1 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda14 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5443ff7b.3030...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/19/2014 01:25 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 10/17/2014 3:42 PM, Ric Moore wayward4...@gmail.com wrote: The fun part will be to see who actually steps up to the plate to do all of the extra work. Especially amongst all of those pledged seconds. I hope someone is keeping a list. :) Ric From what I read, it will be one all debian devs (package maintainers) to fully support all supported init systems in debian in any packages that they maintain. I don't see anything like that in the resolution or discussion. The resolution prohibits exclusive dependence on a PID 1 init, ie it doesn't (directly) enforce multi-init, but it prohibits init tying or mono-init, I guess you could say. See the -vote discussion for the full explanation. I see nothing wrong with this. It isn't forcing anything on anyone, in that any debian package maintainer is free to step down (stop maintaining debian packages) any time they want. It is simply a rule of being a debian package maintainer. It's also been Debian Policy for ages (9.1.1). The resolution may reinforce a policy seen as obsolete by some devs, but changing it requires a 2/3 vote which means that this doesn't really do much, and that or similar arguments were primary objections, if I followed it correctly (and as a user seeing for the first time how Debian sausages get made). What it allegedly does, however, is clarifies policy over an application case where there seems to be lots of confusion and debate, making it a candidate for resolution. This point was generally not contested. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54440082.2080...@ix.netcom.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 10:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:59:44 -0700 Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/17/2014 08:44 PM, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/17/2014 10:22 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: What's the hurry, Squeeze is good until 2016, we have plenty of time to test other init-systems. You use KDE. Where you there when KDE3 became KDE4 and broke our hearts? What a flame fest that was. Yet, you use it now? Ah! Time must have finally smoothed the rough edges. Yet, KDE4 happened no matter what any of us had to say, and I was royally jerked about it. Gnome went through the very same cycle. So did Ubuntu with all of the lens (IMHO) junk. Every one of those projects were driven top-down. We users just got pulled along. Yes! I was at the KDE4 release at Google what fun..I also helped with Trinity, Linux is about diversity and Debian has always been the leader. Whoa guys, slow down on the generalizations. Don't assume everyone uses KDE4. Two years ago I kicked KDE, in its entirety, libraries and all, off all my computers. It's an entangled monolith and a danger to computing. The time might come when I need to do the same with Gnome. Don't assume that users just bend over and take this entangled junk. Debian KDE4 has been manageable, nothing but a bunch of meta-packages remove what you don't need and then use 'aptitude keep-all' to keep the app's and then 'upgrade-system' to cleanup the crud. Some of the best minds use KDE. ;) -- Jimmy Johnson PCLinuxOS 2014 - KDE 4.13.3 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda10 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5442037d.6000...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 23:06:53 -0700 Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/17/2014 10:12 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:59:44 -0700 Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/17/2014 08:44 PM, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/17/2014 10:22 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: What's the hurry, Squeeze is good until 2016, we have plenty of time to test other init-systems. You use KDE. Where you there when KDE3 became KDE4 and broke our hearts? What a flame fest that was. Yet, you use it now? Ah! Time must have finally smoothed the rough edges. Yet, KDE4 happened no matter what any of us had to say, and I was royally jerked about it. Gnome went through the very same cycle. So did Ubuntu with all of the lens (IMHO) junk. Every one of those projects were driven top-down. We users just got pulled along. Yes! I was at the KDE4 release at Google what fun..I also helped with Trinity, Linux is about diversity and Debian has always been the leader. Whoa guys, slow down on the generalizations. Don't assume everyone uses KDE4. Two years ago I kicked KDE, in its entirety, libraries and all, off all my computers. It's an entangled monolith and a danger to computing. The time might come when I need to do the same with Gnome. Don't assume that users just bend over and take this entangled junk. Debian KDE4 has been manageable, nothing but a bunch of meta-packages remove what you don't need and then use 'aptitude keep-all' to keep the app's and then 'upgrade-system' to cleanup the crud. Some of the best minds use KDE. ;) LOL, in that case, consider me one of the worst minds. With my special set of hotkeys, I've tweaked my Openbox to break the sound barrier. :-) SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141018023627.471af...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 10:06 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:52:32 -0700 Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/17/2014 07:54 AM, Rusi Mody wrote: On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. -Rob Thank you Ian Jackson and all seconders for this. Particularly Ian for having done this and become the 'bad-guy' for a good cause. Yes! I too think Ian for sticking up for Debian, I was following the posts and Ian's membership was indeed threatened..it's so insane and Ian is trying to save what is left of Debian..But this GR is not enough..I propose all of 'systemd' be removed as default, it's doing nothing but causing problems, VLC-headless is requiring the VLC-player is ridicules, readable text files(my logs) are now unreadable is not rational at all, The perfect is the enemy of the good. The GR is good enough for the time being. We're proceeding with a two prong plan: 1) The GR might cause init program choice. 2) Several of us are documenting, and creating, systemd-free software. snip I just don't want to do anything that jeopardizes the chances of the GR voting for choice. #1 is going to cause a lot of work, if in fact other init-systems are installable the work will be well worth it, but common sense tells me we should keep systemvinit and upgrade the apps. and then make other init-systems installable. #2 when you get something to test, let me know. :) -- Jimmy Johnson PCLinuxOS 2014 - KDE 4.13.3 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda10 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54420b47.8030...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 10:26 PM, Doug wrote: On 10/18/2014 12:59 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: /snip/ I think that depends on what solution you propose, smart people listen. AMEN! I can say that I long ago upgraded to Jessie/systemd so that I could be the first to yell about it. I'm still looking at a 4 monitor/ 2 video card setup with XFCE and it still works swimmingly well. not even one blip. That is more than I could say back when about the upgrade from KDE3 to KDE4. I cannot tell the difference from when I used systemv from now. /Snip/ That's not the problem. A few people have recognized the problem(s). 1--Putting all your eggs (programs) in one basket. Making almost everything have a dependency on systemd. Registry, anyone? 2--Forcing the entire Linux community to use just one system, and every application to be modified so as to run on systemd. 3--Making all those applications incompatible with any other version of Unix. Never mind GNU's not Unix. This stuff we're running is essentially Unix. 4--Eliminating readable logs. I probably missed a few along the way. Doug, You seem to have a grasp of the situation. -- Jimmy Johnson PCLinuxOS 2014 - KDE 4.13.3 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda10 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54421329.9030...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 10:20:16AM -0700, Rusi Mody wrote: Here are the first few seconds: Isn't this information available on the debian-vote list? Seems redundant to repost it here. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141018072403.GE18928@tal
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 10:20:20PM +0200, Sven Joachim wrote: On 2014-10-17 21:42 +0200, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/17/2014 01:32 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 10/17/2014 1:29 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: I finished the thread right before I posted, and there were only 4 seconds. Guess I missed some sub threads or something... Oh well, glad to see it will get a vote... The fun part will be to see who actually steps up to the plate to do all of the extra work. I don't think it will be fun, or even interesting. Especially amongst all of those pledged seconds. I hope someone is keeping a list. The list will likely be empty, I'm afraid. The whole point of the GR is that its proponents can make any required work SEP if it succeeds. SEP? Google is no help. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141018081323.GA22927@tal
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 2014-10-18 10:13 +0200, Chris Bannister wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 10:20:20PM +0200, Sven Joachim wrote: The list will likely be empty, I'm afraid. The whole point of the GR is that its proponents can make any required work SEP if it succeeds. SEP? Google is no help. I meant the acronym invented by Douglas Adams, sorry for my brevity. Cheers, Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87vbnhlr9a@turtle.gmx.de
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Sat, 2014-10-18 at 21:13 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 10:20:20PM +0200, Sven Joachim wrote: [...] The list will likely be empty, I'm afraid. The whole point of the GR is that its proponents can make any required work SEP if it succeeds. SEP? Google is no help. Some Else's Problem? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somebody_Else's_Problem -- Tixy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1413620917.1218.1.ca...@yxit.co.uk
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 18/10/14 02:38, Steve Litt wrote: I would add that it should be delegated to an interchangeable part through a well-specified thin interface, without global variables like dbus. Or, if there *must* be a global variable, at least make it purposed only for interaction between init and program, and not used by my music player to announce song titles. Conveniently, it appears that on my Debian jessie system, there are distinct system and session dbus-daemon instances. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54423a57.1060...@zen.co.uk
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:20:25AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:14 AM, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 21:09:59 Dan Ritter wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with despite the typo the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. in Message-ID: 8761gow4qv@turtle.gmx.de Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:47:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: 87sijspifa@yun.yagibdah.de and Lisi Reisz: We can use what we are offered, and be grateful that we are offered it. Thank you springs to mind. in Message-Id: 201409202246.44899.lisi.re...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:46:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: 20140920202015.gc8...@teltox.donarmstrong.com -dsr- Neither of those says what you claim. ALL the DDs get to make the decision, including those who have now called for a GR. The TC allowed for this possibility from the beginning, in lessening the vote required to overturn its decision, and it is laid down in the constitution. Beside the quotes on top, I've seen you say this same mantra over and over the past months on your battle to shut down any complaining related to the rabbit. Your main line has been from the start: devs are so cute, thank you and shut up. Do you need me to point here every instance you argued on these lines? But if what you need is authority arguing for authority, instead of useless user words, well that's what's happening here: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00061.html If you were able to read beyond the spell they cast, you would maybe understand that spelling is not the purpose of language and would've been glad with the lesson Joel taught right down. Much of what happened is what politicians call nuanced, that is, you interpret it according to your understanding of the circumstances and conditions. We were objecting to the ad hominem unpleasantness and destruction of the list. Let me try to explain (yet again, sorry, but re-wording things sometimes does help) my point of view and why some of what I have said should not be considered ad hominem. (Some will say pessimistic, I won't argue with that, even though I think pessimism is warranted.) When I have my engineer's hat on, I do not want to combine the init process with much of anything else. pid 1 should do the bare minimum. The way I see it, even sysv-init also does more than it should. This is in accordance with engineering principles that are as integrated into my understanding of software and computer hardware engineering as my intuitive understanding of gravity is integrated into the way I dance. When I look at systemd, the fundamental design and structure fly in the face of reason. I'm not trying to be insulting when I say that. For some of us it really does fly in the face of reason. According to what I understand as an engineer, everything that systemd does beyond the minimum (in other words, beyond being the ultimate backstop for signals and dying orphaned processes) should be delegated. Maybe I should say delegated as much as possible, but systemd just does way too much. When we try to describe what systems do when core processes attempt to do too much, we have said such things as chasing its tail, thrashing, wandering away and not coming back and recursively trying to figure out what it was doing when it was trying to figure out what it was doing. These may sound insulting, but it's an attempt to describe what is actually happening in the computer when it quits responding to input. There are other, similar issues about the design and structure of systemd, and listing them all here would tend to sound like a litany, so I won't this time. Some terms that have been used to describe engineers who would try to put too much into core processes include arrogant, prima donna, and trying to defy the law of gravity without wings. These terms were not intended to insult. They were intended to point out that, as we gained real-world engineering experience, we would tend to quit doing such things. Shoot, we all started out as prima donnas. Hubris, as as been noted despite the typo ^ before, seems to be an essential part of the attitude required to push programming projects through to completion. We don't think we are being condescending when we say we know what it's like to be slapped in the face by reality. Good engineers have all had to put up with advice we didn't want to hear, including the use of colorful adjectives intended to help us take a real look at the places
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Saturday 18 October 2014 18:50:12 Andre N Batista wrote: Beside the quotes on top, I've seen you say this same mantra over and over the past months on your battle to shut down any complaining related to the rabbit. Your main line has been from the start: devs are so cute, No, devs do the work. And also of course have the say under the constitution. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201410181910.24991.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 02:50:12PM -0300, Andre N Batista wrote: But if what you need is authority arguing for authority, instead of useless user words, well that's what's happening here: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00061.html If you were able to read beyond the spell they cast, you would maybe understand that spelling is not the purpose of language and would've been glad with the lesson Joel taught right down. ?? https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00111.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00145.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00157.html -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141019050032.GG19125@tal
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
- Original Message - From: goli...@riseup.net Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/514115636.12487941.141394395.javamail.zim...@ptd.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. -Rob Thank you Ian Jackson and all seconders for this. Particularly Ian for having done this and become the 'bad-guy' for a good cause. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/c2402014-abd4-4d67-8f92-dbb79fe1b...@googlegroups.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Rusi Mody wrote: On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. -Rob Thank you Ian Jackson and all seconders for this. Particularly Ian for having done this and become the 'bad-guy' for a good cause. Likewise. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54413245.90...@meetinghouse.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. -Rob Thank you Ian Jackson and all seconders for this. Particularly Ian for having done this and become the 'bad-guy' for a good cause. Yes!!! Thank you Ian, and the seconders, and everyone who is speaking up for (what I call) sanity. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141017122127.3eb3c...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 12:21 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. Thank you Ian, and the seconders, and everyone who is speaking up for (what I call) sanity. Still only 4 seconds though... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/544145f4.4090...@libertytrek.org
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 12:38:12 -0400 Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 10/17/2014 12:21 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. Thank you Ian, and the seconders, and everyone who is speaking up for (what I call) sanity. Still only 4 seconds though... Succeed or fail, I thank them immensely. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141017125748.7d255...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 at 12:38 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 10/17/2014 12:21 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Thank you Ian, and the seconders, and everyone who is speaking up for (what I call) sanity. Still only 4 seconds though... Eh? I see at least 8 seconds so far, even if we ignore one which may not have had a valid cryptographic signature (which may or may not have been re-submitted privately), and one from a person with a n...@debian.org E-mail address. Plus there's still at least one person whom I would expect to support such a GR who has recently posted to debian-vote, but who has not yet (publicly) posted a seconding. The secretary has stated that the required number of seconds have been reached, and has created a page to track the GR proposal, including proposed alternative resolutions and revisions to the proposed text of either the original resolution or any proposed alternative. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
- Original Message - From: Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org Still only 4 seconds though... Not true: https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00012.htm There was an alternate proposal made by the Debian Leader. That may have only gotten 4 seconds (I didn't count), but apparently it does not need any seconds because it was made by the Debian Leader (according to the discussion in that thread, anyway). So it looks like there will be a vote on this. -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/440887099.12565880.1413565264705.javamail.zim...@ptd.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Friday, October 17, 2014 10:10:02 PM UTC+5:30, Tanstaafl wrote: On 10/17/2014 12:21 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Rusi Mody wrote: On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. Thank you Ian, and the seconders, and everyone who is speaking up for (what I call) sanity. Still only 4 seconds though... Here are the first few seconds: Simon Richter Alessio Treglia Iustin Pop Florian Lohoff Jonas Smedegaard At which point we have Neil McGovern saying | Hi, | | This reached the required number of seconds at Thu, 16 Oct 2014 17:42:55 | UTC, and thus the relevent minimum discussion period of two weeks has | started. | | Neil Seconds continue Bernhard R. Link Dimitri John Ledkov Arnaud Fontaine Thorsten Glaser And once again loud cheers for Ian Jackson and the seconds Some like Charles Plessy are distressed that this may be de-motivating, delaying etc. Yes that may be so and we should thank all DDs for their work. However the contentiousness of this case clearly overrides the need to hit deadlines -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/855288d2-a899-4d30-ba91-17db3397d...@googlegroups.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 01:01:44PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: On 10/17/2014 at 12:38 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 10/17/2014 12:21 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Thank you Ian, and the seconders, and everyone who is speaking up for (what I call) sanity. Still only 4 seconds though... Eh? I see at least 8 seconds so far, even if we ignore one which may not have had a valid cryptographic signature (which may or may not have been re-submitted privately), and one from a person with a n...@debian.org E-mail address. Plus there's still at least one person whom I would expect to support such a GR who has recently posted to debian-vote, but who has not yet (publicly) posted a seconding. The secretary has stated that the required number of seconds have been reached, and has created a page to track the GR proposal, including proposed alternative resolutions and revisions to the proposed text of either the original resolution or any proposed alternative. https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00012.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00044.html Thank you very much for caring. I cannot believe some people still thinks this is just a minor issue and that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 1:01 PM, The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: On 10/17/2014 at 12:38 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 10/17/2014 12:21 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Thank you Ian, and the seconders, and everyone who is speaking up for (what I call) sanity. Still only 4 seconds though... Eh? I see at least 8 seconds so far, I finished the thread right before I posted, and there were only 4 seconds. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54415214.7040...@libertytrek.org
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 1:29 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: I finished the thread right before I posted, and there were only 4 seconds. Guess I missed some sub threads or something... Oh well, glad to see it will get a vote... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/544152b1.30...@libertytrek.org
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: Seconds continue Bernhard R. Link Dimitri John Ledkov Arnaud Fontaine Thorsten Glaser And once again loud cheers for Ian Jackson and the seconds Some like Charles Plessy are distressed that this may be de-motivating, delaying etc. Absolutely! By definition it's delaying, and I can't conceive of being a systemd-agnostic developer or packager and not being de-motivated by getting yanked this way and that. But ... This reminds me of the old saying: Marry in haste, repeat at leasure. This was all forseeable when the CTTE voted, given their decision logistics. It's too late to repeal the engagement, apparently it's even too late for an annulment, but at least there can be an agreement to see others during this loveless marriage. Systemd as the one-and-only will doubtlessly produce a huge splintering of Linux. Systemd as the preferred over other alternatives will probably calm things down. As for me, regardless of outcome, I'm going to continue finding and making entanglement-free software. In fact, I should have started doing this ten years ago, and in fact, I should have given much higher priority to freedom from gratuitous dependencies of all types. I always had a lousy feeling about network-manager: I should have created a simple, low dependence alternative years ago. I've always had a lousy feeling about dbus, and should have prioritized dbus-free software years ago. And from now on, when people laugh at my ugly, no-dependency, home grown solutions as kludges, I'll have exactly two words to say to them: *Thank you*. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141017135904.5a653...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201410171902.12257.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: Seconds continue Bernhard R. Link Dimitri John Ledkov Arnaud Fontaine Thorsten Glaser And once again loud cheers for Ian Jackson and the seconds Abso-Lutely! [snip] However the contentiousness of this case clearly overrides the need to hit deadlines I agree. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141017140012.1b633...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 01:32 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 10/17/2014 1:29 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: I finished the thread right before I posted, and there were only 4 seconds. Guess I missed some sub threads or something... Oh well, glad to see it will get a vote... The fun part will be to see who actually steps up to the plate to do all of the extra work. Especially amongst all of those pledged seconds. I hope someone is keeping a list. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54417133.8060...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 2014-10-17 21:42 +0200, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/17/2014 01:32 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 10/17/2014 1:29 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: I finished the thread right before I posted, and there were only 4 seconds. Guess I missed some sub threads or something... Oh well, glad to see it will get a vote... The fun part will be to see who actually steps up to the plate to do all of the extra work. I don't think it will be fun, or even interesting. Especially amongst all of those pledged seconds. I hope someone is keeping a list. The list will likely be empty, I'm afraid. The whole point of the GR is that its proponents can make any required work SEP if it succeeds. Cheers, Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/877fzymosb@turtle.gmx.de
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. in Message-ID: 8761gow4qv@turtle.gmx.de Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:47:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: 87sijspifa@yun.yagibdah.de and Lisi Reisz: We can use what we are offered, and be grateful that we are offered it. Thank you springs to mind. in Message-Id: 201409202246.44899.lisi.re...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:46:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: 20140920202015.gc8...@teltox.donarmstrong.com -dsr- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141017200959.gc2...@randomstring.org
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Dan Ritter wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. Given the percentage of Debian (and Linux) developers who are paid by Linux-based companies, that inevitably leads to decisions that are made in ways that advance vendor interests, not user interests. As it stands now, the social contract states: 4. *Our priorities are our users and free software* We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We will support the needs of our users for operation in many different kinds of computing environments. We will not object to non-free works that are intended to be used on Debian systems, or attempt to charge a fee to people who create or use such works. We will allow others to create distributions containing both the Debian system and other works, without any fee from us. In furtherance of these goals, we will provide an integrated system of high-quality materials with no legal restrictions that would prevent such uses of the system. Now... if those who make decisions want to change that, through due process, that's fair game - but these are the current rules of the road. I'll also note that (IMHO) those who do the work needs to be viewed as a larger group than just Debian developers. Those who contribute to the free software community - through development of software, through support, through promotion, and so forth are doing the work and contributing indirectly to Debian. In many (most) cases, users and the free software community ARE doing some of the work - but don't have a vote. Note: I have nothing against Red Hat, Canonical, IBM, and other big players in the Linux world - they make serious contributions, we need them, and I applaud them. But just because they can pay the freight for large amounts of the development activity does not mean that they deserve a rubber stamp. (Conspiracy or not, in the current situation, systemd is driven by Red Hat players, and has pretty much forced other distros to fall into line - for example, Ubuntu's decision to adopt systemd is a direct result of Debian's). Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/544182c9.9070...@meetinghouse.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Friday 17 October 2014 21:09:59 Dan Ritter wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. in Message-ID: 8761gow4qv@turtle.gmx.de Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:47:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: 87sijspifa@yun.yagibdah.de and Lisi Reisz: We can use what we are offered, and be grateful that we are offered it. Thank you springs to mind. in Message-Id: 201409202246.44899.lisi.re...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:46:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: 20140920202015.gc8...@teltox.donarmstrong.com -dsr- Neither of those says what you claim. ALL the DDs get to make the decision, including those who have now called for a GR. The TC allowed for this possibility from the beginning, in lessening the vote required to overturn its decision, and it is laid down in the constitution. We were objecting to the ad hominem unpleasantness and destruction of the list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201410172214.30140.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Good work Ian. It is a well framed GR, and thank you to the seconds. The previous post about the Social Contract is spot-on. I believe the majority of folks who use Debian, do so because of the freedom of choice it provides in their computing environment. We should not ever allow for or accommodate even the smallest possibility for vendor lock-in, which is what Systemd appears to be as time and dependencies continue to grow for it. For this reason alone, Debian should do everything possible to maintain alternate init systems and keep them compatible with multiple DEs, including GNOME. May mean more work, but this is an ideal I believe a lot of contributors will be happy to help with. -- View this message in context: http://debian.2.n7.nabble.com/GR-proposed-re-choice-of-init-systems-tp3393493p3394715.html Sent from the Debian User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1413594618802-3394715.p...@n7.nabble.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:14 AM, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 21:09:59 Dan Ritter wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 07:02:12PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 17 October 2014 18:30:31 Andre N Batista wrote: I cannot believe some people still thinks [snip] that we should simply stick with the TC's authority regardless what. Surely no-one has ever said that?? References if someone has? Sven Joachim. Because the people who do the work get to make the decisions, that's the way Debian works. in Message-ID: 8761gow4qv@turtle.gmx.de Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 06:47:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: 87sijspifa@yun.yagibdah.de and Lisi Reisz: We can use what we are offered, and be grateful that we are offered it. Thank you springs to mind. in Message-Id: 201409202246.44899.lisi.re...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:46:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: 20140920202015.gc8...@teltox.donarmstrong.com -dsr- Neither of those says what you claim. ALL the DDs get to make the decision, including those who have now called for a GR. The TC allowed for this possibility from the beginning, in lessening the vote required to overturn its decision, and it is laid down in the constitution. Much of what happened is what politicians call nuanced, that is, you interpret it according to your understanding of the circumstances and conditions. We were objecting to the ad hominem unpleasantness and destruction of the list. Let me try to explain (yet again, sorry, but re-wording things sometimes does help) my point of view and why some of what I have said should not be considered ad hominem. (Some will say pessimistic, I won't argue with that, even though I think pessimism is warranted.) When I have my engineer's hat on, I do not want to combine the init process with much of anything else. pid 1 should do the bare minimum. The way I see it, even sysv-init also does more than it should. This is in accordance with engineering principles that are as integrated into my understanding of software and computer hardware engineering as my intuitive understanding of gravity is integrated into the way I dance. When I look at systemd, the fundamental design and structure fly in the face of reason. I'm not trying to be insulting when I say that. For some of us it really does fly in the face of reason. According to what I understand as an engineer, everything that systemd does beyond the minimum (in other words, beyond being the ultimate backstop for signals and dying orphaned processes) should be delegated. Maybe I should say delegated as much as possible, but systemd just does way too much. When we try to describe what systems do when core processes attempt to do too much, we have said such things as chasing its tail, thrashing, wandering away and not coming back and recursively trying to figure out what it was doing when it was trying to figure out what it was doing. These may sound insulting, but it's an attempt to describe what is actually happening in the computer when it quits responding to input. There are other, similar issues about the design and structure of systemd, and listing them all here would tend to sound like a litany, so I won't this time. Some terms that have been used to describe engineers who would try to put too much into core processes include arrogant, prima donna, and trying to defy the law of gravity without wings. These terms were not intended to insult. They were intended to point out that, as we gained real-world engineering experience, we would tend to quit doing such things. Shoot, we all started out as prima donnas. Hubris, as as been noted before, seems to be an essential part of the attitude required to push programming projects through to completion. We don't think we are being condescending when we say we know what it's like to be slapped in the face by reality. Good engineers have all had to put up with advice we didn't want to hear, including the use of colorful adjectives intended to help us take a real look at the places things tend to go wrong. Faster CPUs, more CPUs, more RAM than in the past are being depended on to avoid these problems, but there's a wall that will be hit. Several walls, and they have been hit in a number of cases, but CPU speed, extra CPUs, and extra RAM are helping to hide the fundamental problems. Hiding them will not make them go away. As far as the so-called conspiracy theories, looking at parallels in the industry, Microsoft kept making impossible promises about MSWindows being able to duplicate the Macintosh experience on standard IBM-PC hardware, basically from the year 1985, when they first realized that the early Macintosh might not be a fluke. Their forward-looking promises, and their continual reliance on Moore's law to rescue them from the worst of their bad promises, gave them the edge to gain their effective monopoly. That is part of what is being referred to when people express
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 10:20:25 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: According to what I understand as an engineer, everything that systemd does beyond the minimum (in other words, beyond being the ultimate backstop for signals and dying orphaned processes) should be delegated. I would add that it should be delegated to an interchangeable part through a well-specified thin interface, without global variables like dbus. Or, if there *must* be a global variable, at least make it purposed only for interaction between init and program, and not used by my music player to announce song titles. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141017213834.52d70...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 07:54 AM, Rusi Mody wrote: On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. -Rob Thank you Ian Jackson and all seconders for this. Particularly Ian for having done this and become the 'bad-guy' for a good cause. Yes! I too think Ian for sticking up for Debian, I was following the posts and Ian's membership was indeed threatened..it's so insane and Ian is trying to save what is left of Debian..But this GR is not enough..I propose all of 'systemd' be removed as default, it's doing nothing but causing problems, VLC-headless is requiring the VLC-player is ridicules, readable text files(my logs) are now unreadable is not rational at all, Debian needs to backup! Maybe development of Debian needs a new init-system, well then our talented Debian developers should build them and put them in experimental, unstable and testing repos so they can be tested by a number of users, I know I would be happy to install and test, that's what I do..What is the rush of this that it has to be shoved down the throat of the Debian community, this whole thing just stinks and it's not the Debian way that I have known and loved for over 20 years. Just one other thing..I did not know about 'systemd' until 'ksystemlog' broke, bug reports filed and ignored and now I know why and 'it' should not be in Jessie. -- Jimmy Johnson Debian Squeeze - KDE 4.4.5 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda10 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5441c7e0.30...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Ric Moore wrote: On 10/17/2014 01:32 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 10/17/2014 1:29 PM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: I finished the thread right before I posted, and there were only 4 seconds. Guess I missed some sub threads or something... Oh well, glad to see it will get a vote... The fun part will be to see who actually steps up to the plate to do all of the extra work. Especially amongst all of those pledged seconds. I hope someone is keeping a list. :) Ric What's the hurry, Squeeze is good until 2016, we have plenty of time to test other init-systems. -- Jimmy Johnson Debian Squeeze - KDE 4.4.5 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda10 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5441cec8.8070...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/17/2014 08:44 PM, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/17/2014 10:22 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: What's the hurry, Squeeze is good until 2016, we have plenty of time to test other init-systems. You use KDE. Where you there when KDE3 became KDE4 and broke our hearts? What a flame fest that was. Yet, you use it now? Ah! Time must have finally smoothed the rough edges. Yet, KDE4 happened no matter what any of us had to say, and I was royally jerked about it. Gnome went through the very same cycle. So did Ubuntu with all of the lens (IMHO) junk. Every one of those projects were driven top-down. We users just got pulled along. Yes! I was at the KDE4 release at Google what fun..I also helped with Trinity, Linux is about diversity and Debian has always been the leader. But, it would be equally ridiculous for me to expect that I, as a mere user/volunteer could demand that the devels should listen to me and scamper off to do things as I demand them. In a meritocracy I don't think that things work that way, and that is what we basically have here. In a meritocracy, according to my personal contribution, my opinion is worth spit compared to the Devel Project leaders. I think that depends on what solution you propose, smart people listen. I can say that I long ago upgraded to Jessie/systemd so that I could be the first to yell about it. I'm still looking at a 4 monitor/ 2 video card setup with XFCE and it still works swimmingly well. not even one blip. That is more than I could say back when about the upgrade from KDE3 to KDE4. I cannot tell the difference from when I used systemv from now. I'm happy you're enjoying systemd. :) I didn't know about systemd until about 2 months ago when ksystemlog broke, since then I have been studying the situation, studying packages and what Debian members have to say in real-time and systemd would be better to have been tested before being introduced as the next stable Debian system. BUT! Tomorrow I rescue an old headless Proxmox box, running wheezy, and I'm going to upgrade it to Jessie AND systemd and report back if it catches fire or not. Heh, we shall see what we shall see. And, it was running about 5 containers, including WordPress and MyCloud. That will be a good test. :) Ric I wish you success. :) -- Jimmy Johnson PCLinuxOS 2014 - KDE 4.13.3 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda10 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5441f3c0.4090...@gmail.com
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:52:32 -0700 Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/17/2014 07:54 AM, Rusi Mody wrote: On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00:02 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Owens wrote: - Original Message - Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html Very interesting discussion there. Thanks for posting. -Rob Thank you Ian Jackson and all seconders for this. Particularly Ian for having done this and become the 'bad-guy' for a good cause. Yes! I too think Ian for sticking up for Debian, I was following the posts and Ian's membership was indeed threatened..it's so insane and Ian is trying to save what is left of Debian..But this GR is not enough..I propose all of 'systemd' be removed as default, it's doing nothing but causing problems, VLC-headless is requiring the VLC-player is ridicules, readable text files(my logs) are now unreadable is not rational at all, The perfect is the enemy of the good. The GR is good enough for the time being. We're proceeding with a two prong plan: 1) The GR might cause init program choice. 2) Several of us are documenting, and creating, systemd-free software. I think at this point insisting on systemd being declared non-default might risk the success of #1. If they vote no on the GR, then I think that unless Red Hat succeeds in systemdizing X itself, we'll (meaning those of us who care) will replace systemd-contaminated software with init-agnostic software. And for sure, boycott all systemd-dependent software to the best of our ability. The GR is good thing because one of two things will become obvious in the coming years. Either: A. We were right all along, Linux is being destroyed, and because we've maintained init choice, we can dump systemd and the corporation that tried to destory Linux. B. They were right, the world goes on, and systemd is a nonissue. I think within three or four years we'll know which of the above is true. If it's A, we'll take Linux back from Red Hat, and with any luck cause the demise of Red Hat via competition of a superior OS. If it's B, we won't even let out a wimper if, in 2018, they finally declare systemd as the one true init. I just don't want to do anything that jeopardizes the chances of the GR voting for choice. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141018010600.11828...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 21:59:44 -0700 Jimmy Johnson field.engin...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/17/2014 08:44 PM, Ric Moore wrote: On 10/17/2014 10:22 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: What's the hurry, Squeeze is good until 2016, we have plenty of time to test other init-systems. You use KDE. Where you there when KDE3 became KDE4 and broke our hearts? What a flame fest that was. Yet, you use it now? Ah! Time must have finally smoothed the rough edges. Yet, KDE4 happened no matter what any of us had to say, and I was royally jerked about it. Gnome went through the very same cycle. So did Ubuntu with all of the lens (IMHO) junk. Every one of those projects were driven top-down. We users just got pulled along. Yes! I was at the KDE4 release at Google what fun..I also helped with Trinity, Linux is about diversity and Debian has always been the leader. Whoa guys, slow down on the generalizations. Don't assume everyone uses KDE4. Two years ago I kicked KDE, in its entirety, libraries and all, off all my computers. It's an entangled monolith and a danger to computing. The time might come when I need to do the same with Gnome. Don't assume that users just bend over and take this entangled junk. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141018011211.71724...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On 10/18/2014 12:59 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: /snip/ I think that depends on what solution you propose, smart people listen. AMEN! I can say that I long ago upgraded to Jessie/systemd so that I could be the first to yell about it. I'm still looking at a 4 monitor/ 2 video card setup with XFCE and it still works swimmingly well. not even one blip. That is more than I could say back when about the upgrade from KDE3 to KDE4. I cannot tell the difference from when I used systemv from now. /Snip/ That's not the problem. A few people have recognized the problem(s). 1--Putting all your eggs (programs) in one basket. Making almost everything have a dependency on systemd. Registry, anyone? 2--Forcing the entire Linux community to use just one system, and every application to be modified so as to run on systemd. 3--Making all those applications incompatible with any other version of Unix. Never mind GNU's not Unix. This stuff we're running is essentially Unix. 4--Eliminating readable logs. I probably missed a few along the way. --doug -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5441f9f3.2040...@optonline.net
Re: GR proposed re: choice of init systems
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 01:26:11 -0400 Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote: /Snip/ That's not the problem. A few people have recognized the problem(s). 1--Putting all your eggs (programs) in one basket. Making almost everything have a dependency on systemd. Registry, anyone? 2--Forcing the entire Linux community to use just one system, and every application to be modified so as to run on systemd. 3--Making all those applications incompatible with any other version of Unix. Never mind GNU's not Unix. This stuff we're running is essentially Unix. 4--Eliminating readable logs. I probably missed a few along the way. So let me add a couple: * Design with no regard to repairability. In fact, hostility toward repairability. * Lessening the use of interchangeable parts. * Giving design leadership to a guy who said Linux isn't a real operating system. But here's the thing, Doug. Even if it were nothing more than your first two points, it would be a travesty. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141018014611.61124...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
GR proposed re: choice of init systems
Now let's see what happens with this! https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg1.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/3035ef569c222b0d9e8dab47e328e...@riseup.net
