Re: Goodbye debian

[Daniel Burrows]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 05:00:27PM -0400, Hal Vaughan  was 
heard to say:
> Also, by the time I started using Java, I had learned that many times  
> when I write something, I'm revisiting later and have forgotten it, so  
> making sure my Javadoc comments were clear enough that I wouldn't have  
> to dig up the code just re-enforced that. I'm still surprised at the  
> number of uncommented regex stuff I see in Perl.  If I'm using a regex  
> that has ANY degree of complexity (other than pulling out, say, one  
> string with a wildcard or two), then I comment that line of code  
> specifically.

  I developed the habit of writing Doxygen (C++ version of Javadoc)
comments for all my code after an internship where that was a "house
rule".  I kept it up in large part because I found that writing API
documentation *made my code better*.  If I've divided the functionality
well, most of the subroutines should be able to be documented precisely
in a couple sentences; knowing I'm going to write a doccomment is a
good incentive to divide things sensibly and not have functions that are
a horrible mishmash of orthogonal concerns. :-)

  Daniel


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Cowley Harris]

>Given the ghastliness of maintaining Perl code

I've had to maintain perl code at work, so you have my sympathies.

 But in Perl's defense, it's not a necessary characteristic of Perl to
be hard to maintain. It's just the inherent flexibility of the
language that makes it easier to write "Write Only Code". Given that
you are refactoring at all shows that, while Perl has the flexibility
to be written in an overly complex way, it can also be written to be
maintainable, even in large projects.

As for the lack of comments in the code, I've read some interesting
opinions about the practice of commenting. That bad comments are worse
than no comments at all, and that comments themselves tend to be the
first victim of code rot.  I've seen some comments in production code,
that if it weren't for the NDA, would have been sent to
www.thedailywtf.com.

 Using self-documenting code practices, sticking to the standards set
out in "Perl Best Practices", and the constant use of Perlcritic has
reduced the amount of comments I've needed to put into code, as well
as the need to maintain the comments. Which, in my opinion, can be
harder than maintaining the code. There are no compile or run time
error or warnings for an out-of-date comment.

One extreme view was that comments in the code should be avoided as
the need to comment was a sign that it was time to refactor of the
code instead.

That said, people who don't put descriptive comments with their
submits need shot. :)

I've got a bit of free time on my hands, perhaps you want some help refactoring?

H.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

Thus spoke Master Foo:
>Uncommented code can be a nightmare in ANY language!
and Nubi was enlightened.
-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.   ,= ,-_-. =.
b...@iguanasuicide.net  ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Goodbye debian

[Hal Vaughan]

On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:37 PM, Roger Leigh wrote:


On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 08:30:33AM +0200, Javier Barroso wrote:

Hi,
2009/6/25 明覺 :

I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
"Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
Good bye! :)


Your original question was about installing debian without perl, it  
is

not possible now. If you want to do it, you would have asked in
debian-devel, because debian users can't do anything with this issue.


Given the ghastliness of maintaining Perl code, rewriting it in
C++ does have a certain attraction.  However, one first has to
understand what the code *does*, and a few thousand lines of
uncommented regular expressions are a fairly impenetrable mess!


I was teaching myself 6502 Assembler in college while I was taking a  
course on the Vax 11/780.  My instructor had a rule in Assembler:  
EVERY line of code HAD to have a comment.  Most people had lame  
comments, like, "Transfer from register to memory."  I had learned  
from reading Nibble Magazine, which published programs for the Apple ] 
[, ][+, and //e computers so if I had a task to do, I'd put in  
comments like, "Take the given value and add the offset we need, then  
transfer it to use as an index."  That might be split over 2-3 lines  
of code, but the teacher commented that he liked my comments because  
it made it clear what the program was doing.  That was enough to start  
a lifelong habit.  I don't comment every line now, but I use block  
comments for sections and subroutines and that habit has made my life  
MUCH easier.


Also, by the time I started using Java, I had learned that many times  
when I write something, I'm revisiting later and have forgotten it, so  
making sure my Javadoc comments were clear enough that I wouldn't have  
to dig up the code just re-enforced that. I'm still surprised at the  
number of uncommented regex stuff I see in Perl.  If I'm using a regex  
that has ANY degree of complexity (other than pulling out, say, one  
string with a wildcard or two), then I comment that line of code  
specifically.


I've been thankful, many times, for the habit that teacher created  
with his requirements.


I might add that it's not just Perl, it really depends on who wrote  
the code.  Uncommented code can be a nightmare in ANY language!



Hal

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Roger Leigh]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 08:30:33AM +0200, Javier Barroso wrote:
> Hi,
> 2009/6/25 明覺 :
> > I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
> > anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
> > debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
> > attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
> > As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
> > "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
> > Good bye! :)
> 
> Your original question was about installing debian without perl, it is
> not possible now. If you want to do it, you would have asked in
> debian-devel, because debian users can't do anything with this issue.

Given the ghastliness of maintaining Perl code, rewriting it in
C++ does have a certain attraction.  However, one first has to
understand what the code *does*, and a few thousand lines of
uncommented regular expressions are a fairly impenetrable mess!

I've been maintaining the "sbuild" package in Debian for a few
years now.  It's written in Perl, and is a core part of our
package autobuilding infrastructure, also used by individual
developers for cleanly building packages prior to upload.  I once
had the desire to rewrite it in C++, but even for this one smallish
(but rather complex) program, this is a very time consuming
challenge.

It's taken several *years* of my spare time (I'm a Biologist IRL) to
refactor it do the point where it's mostly understandable and clean,
and this is not even yet complete.  Once this is finally done,
conversion is a remote possibility.  But this will likely never
happen due to the sheer man hours required, as well as the danger of
breaking such a critical tool.  If I was employed full-time to work
on it, it would only be a few months of work, but as it is, I have
my real job to do as well...  When you scale this problem up to all
the *working and tested* tools and programs currently used, one
would soon conclude that the cost/benefit of changing is too high.

Perl certainly has its place for more complex scripts; it's when
it gets to be too large and require long-term maintenence that one
finds it is less than ideal.  What I would give for static analysis
and compile-type type-checking!


Regards,
Roger

-- 
  .''`.  Roger Leigh
 : :' :  Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
 `. `'   Printing on GNU/Linux?   http://gutenprint.sourceforge.net/
   `-GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848   Please GPG sign your mail.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Goodbye debian

[Daryl Styrk]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 07:08:34AM -0500, Allen Meyers wrote:
> I have not followed this thread and getting in only at the end but it
> caught my attention simply because I left Ubuntu for the very same
> reason, but my ire was directed towards the idiots not the experienced
> users.
> I have tried 6 Linux OS to date and without a doubt it is far superior
> to the other I have tried and I will continue with "you guys"

Everyone climbs the tree soon enough.. 

-- 
Daryl Styrk
Naples FL, USA


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Allen Meyers]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 6:33 AM, Daryl Styrk wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 08:26:25AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
>> I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
>> anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
>> debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
>> attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
>> As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
>> "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
>> Good bye! :)
>
> Ah.. Progress in Debian how nice...
>
> --
> Daryl Styrk
> Naples FL, USA
I have not followed this thread and getting in only at the end but it
caught my attention simply because I left Ubuntu for the very same
reason, but my ire was directed towards the idiots not the experienced
users.
I have tried 6 Linux OS to date and without a doubt it is far superior
to the other I have tried and I will continue with "you guys"

> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
>
>


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Daryl Styrk]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 08:26:25AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
> I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
> anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
> debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
> attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
> As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
> "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
> Good bye! :)

Ah.. Progress in Debian how nice... 

-- 
Daryl Styrk
Naples FL, USA


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Javier Barroso]

Hi,
2009/6/25 明覺 :
> I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
> anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
> debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
> attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
> As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
> "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
> Good bye! :)

Your original question was about installing debian without perl, it is
not possible now. If you want to do it, you would have asked in
debian-devel, because debian users can't do anything with this issue.

As comments in other answers, you could help migrating the slowest
tools writen in perl/python to C code (as cdebootstrap do)

Good luck in your task

Debian Rocks!


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Aioanei Rares]

明覺 wrote:
> I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
> anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
> debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
> attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
> As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
> "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
> Good bye! :)
>
>   
Linus Torvalds must be jealous...


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

明覺 wrote:
> As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
> "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
> Good bye! :)

Good luck!

It really is a shame that apparently no one stepped in to help you
reprogram a great part of the debian archives in c/c++. To some
estimations that's just about 30 000 person years of full time
programmers' time; and therefore with 1500 helping hands, the task could
be accomplished within your schedule of 20 years.

Please let us know as soon as you are finished with the basic task of
reprogramming X and the desktop-manager!

Cheers,
Johannes


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2009-06-25 04:26:53, schrieb Oliver Schneider:
> > As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
> > "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
> However, I hope the one language isn't assembler. I really can't
> imagine shell scripting that way - well, if you take "Only One
> Programming Lanuguage" serious that is ... ;)

Why not?  

It runs faster then the hell.

I do a similar thing for ARM 9/11 because I need  a  more  reliabel  and
more stabile OS running in a 64 MByte or smaller NAND Flash then Linux.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
25.9V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

-- 
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
# Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #
 Michelle Konzack
   c/o Vertriebsp. KabelBW
   Blumenstrasse 2
Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de   77694 Kehl/Germany
IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) Tel. DE: +49 177 9351947
ICQ #328449886Tel. FR: +33  6  61925193


signature.pgp
Description: Digital signature

Re: Goodbye debian

[Oliver Schneider]

> As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
> "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
However, I hope the one language isn't assembler. I really can't imagine shell 
scripting that way - well, if you take "Only One Programming Lanuguage" serious 
that is ... ;)

> Good bye! :)
Bye, and good luck. I admire people who have the endurance to follow through 
with a project of that magnitude (after all you compared your endeavor to 
Debian).

// Oliver


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Neal Hogan]

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Adriano
Trentini wrote:
> Goodbye, Mr. Shi.
> However, I always received many help from debian users.
>
> --- Em qua, 24/6/09, 明覺  escreveu:
>
> De: 明覺 
> Assunto: Goodbye debian
> Para: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Data: Quarta-feira, 24 de Junho de 2009, 21:26
>
> I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
> anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
> debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
> attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
> As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
> "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
> Good bye! :)
>



Since I did spend some time looking after his threads . . . actually,
it kept me up at night, I feel that I should pay my respects to a
noble and fearless . . . ummm . . . individual. Despite the fact that
you're not reading this, 明覺, I wish you, again, luck. You will be
missed. The time we've spent the past 48 . . .  . . . I
can't go on 

For the love of something, can't the debian community offer something
for everybody . . . jeez . . . what the hell are the devs getting paid
to do?!



 P.S. -- be sure to tip you bartender.

> --
> 初禪言語寂滅，二禪覺觀寂滅，三禪喜心寂滅，四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫，是為無上禪。
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmas...@lists.debian.org
>
>
> 
> Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 -
> Celebridades - Música - Esportes


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: Goodbye debian

[Adriano Trentini]

Goodbye, Mr. Shi.
However, I always received many help from debian users.

--- Em qua, 24/6/09, 明覺  escreveu:

De: 明覺 
Assunto: Goodbye debian
Para: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Data: Quarta-feira, 24 de Junho de 2009, 21:26

I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
"Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
Good bye! :)

-- 
初禪言語寂滅，二禪覺觀寂滅，三禪喜心寂滅，四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫，是為無上禪。


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org




  

Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! +Buscados
http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com

Re: Goodbye debian

[Victor Padro]

2009/6/24 明覺 :
> I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
> anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
> debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
> attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
> As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
> "Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
> Good bye! :)
>
> --
> 初禪言語寂滅，二禪覺觀寂滅，三禪喜心寂滅，四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫，是為無上禪。
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
>
>

Pleas, don't leaveee!

We need you to enlighten our list!

(Sorry, but I needed to do that)

Goodbye Shi Min Jue.

-- 
"It is human nature to think wisely and act in an absurd fashion."

"Todo el desorden del mundo proviene de las profesiones mal o
mediocremente servidas"


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Goodbye debian

[明覺]

I do not have time to read your replies about another discussion
anymore for they are useless, and I do not feel happy with all you
debian guys, so I leave this mailing list, also debian has no
attraction to me anymore, I will stop using it from now.
As I have decalared, I will build my own OS and applications by a
"Only One Programming Lanuguage" way.
Good bye! :)

-- 
初禪言語寂滅，二禪覺觀寂滅，三禪喜心寂滅，四禪出入息寂滅于貪欲心、嗔恚心、愚痴心不樂、解脫，是為無上禪。


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Andrei Popescu]

On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 01:21:50PM +0100, Johannes Wiedersich wrote:
> Yuriy Kuznetsov wrote:
> > This link appeared on gmail page. Kind of Micro$oft about Micro$oft
> > propaganda. Nice one ;o)
> > 
> > http://www.microsoft.com/ireland/getthefacts/default.mspx
> 
> And I knew for sure: that airline went bankrupt...

Not entirely correct. Swiss Air went bankrupt. The remains of it were 
taken over by Crossair and a new airline emerged called Swiss. I'm not 
sure they were doing very well either as they were bought by Lufthansa.

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Johannes Wiedersich]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Yuriy Kuznetsov wrote:
> This link appeared on gmail page. Kind of Micro$oft about Micro$oft
> propaganda. Nice one ;o)
> 
> http://www.microsoft.com/ireland/getthefacts/default.mspx

And I knew for sure: that airline went bankrupt...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFHy+1eC1NzPRl9qEURAgebAJ93c/f2YILKKLCrHfqMd3T+9M9x8ACdEjdf
opLlumeLNTX3E3/LKkcc+oA=
=nj3E
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dave Thayer]

On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 07:15:14PM +0100, Dan H. wrote:

> I am on "my own" machine and I am able to write to local drives. I've
> successfully installed Opera, but I can't install Openoffice (because
> that requires root -- oops, "administrator" privileges) nor cygqin
> (because its can't go through a firewall that requires authentication).
> 

Portableapps 
has OOo which, although intended to be run from a USB stick, works
just fine when unpacked to a local directory.

HTH

dt

-- 
Dave Thayer   | Whenever you read a good book, it's like the 
Denver, Colorado USA  | author is right there, in the room talking to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | you, which is why I don't like to read 
  | good books. - Jack Handey "Deep Thoughts"


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Christopher Bradley]

actually opera does have tabs (since before firefox) and does have a wand
which remembers passwords. Before firefox, i used it as
the best alternate to explorer when I have to use a windows machine. But why
not load firefox? If you got opera on, firefox should be doable. If loading
is an issue, you could check into portable apps and put firefox and a few
other programs onto a flack stick for use with windows machine.

good luck.

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Dan H. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well, I guess the subject caught your attention after all.
>
> Of course I'm not saying goodbye to Debian, at least not voluntarily and
> certainly not at home. But I just changed jobs, and so moved from a self-
> administered Debian box to a locked-up, preinstalled all-M$ Dell thing.
> M$ Office, M$IE, Lotus Notes 6 (soon to be migrated to Outlook Express).
>
> I've never really used Windows before and thought of it as just another
> system -- I like Debian, you like Windows, no sweat.
>
> Boy, what a piece of crap. It boggles the mind. This is how the world's
> office workers get their work done? Or do they?
>
> I managed to install Opera in a directory owned by myself, but whenever I
> try to open any page it keeps asking me for usernames and passwords,
> which IE somehow seems to inherently know about. That thing doesn't even
> have tabs or a decent bookmark handler. That's the #1 browser in the
> world! WTF? Am I missing something here?
>
> OK, this rant really doesn't belong in this group, but I need some
> sympathy right now.
>
> Thanks for listening,
> --D.
>
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFHwecAGdM4FB223AcRAnePAJ9a1hSp9nKsAOqkNVEfmiZbku2zhACfXXn+
> 0tWWgOZGBk2C8RtFOQkCCKM=
> =t+o4
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 07:15:14PM +0100, Dan H. wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 02:57:30AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>  Actually, if he's got his own machine, then he can install the
> > portableapps applications locally, without a flash drive. It's much
> > faster that way, in fact, at the university I copy portable firefox to
> > the machine I'm sitting at and then erase it when I leave. I recommend
> > portable Open Office and mplayer as well.
> 
> I am on "my own" machine and I am able to write to local drives. I've
> successfully installed Opera, but I can't install Openoffice (because
> that requires root -- oops, "administrator" privileges) 

Last time I tried you could install it as non-administrator.

http://www.openoffice.org/docs/setup_guide/single_install.html
(Looks old, but maybe still relevant)

> nor cygqin
> (because its can't go through a firewall that requires authentication).

The cygwin installer allows you to separate the download and install
parts. download at home to a temporary directory. Anstall at work (as a
user).

I don't believe that there's a popular enough free software that you
cannot install as a non-admin user.

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ||  best
ICQ# 16849754 || friend


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dan H.]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 07:18:38AM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> Coporate IT is driven by sweetheart deals from suppliers to IT
> management.  It is full of fiefdoms and "not invented here" syndromes. 
> It is a meca to the power hungry and the control freaks.  It has little
> to do with helping the workers use the best tool for the job.  If that
> happens, it's often the result of an accident or an oversight and will
> soon be corrected.
 

The IT people here are really helpful. I get them on the line, and they
actually call back fifteen minutes after they said they would. I'm sure
I could convince them that I needed some software, but OO (for instance)
ain't THAT much better than M$ Office that I would want to bother them. 

--D.



signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dan H.]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 02:57:30AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
 Actually, if he's got his own machine, then he can install the
> portableapps applications locally, without a flash drive. It's much
> faster that way, in fact, at the university I copy portable firefox to
> the machine I'm sitting at and then erase it when I leave. I recommend
> portable Open Office and mplayer as well.

I am on "my own" machine and I am able to write to local drives. I've
successfully installed Opera, but I can't install Openoffice (because
that requires root -- oops, "administrator" privileges) nor cygqin
(because its can't go through a firewall that requires authentication).

Mplayer I don't need.

--D.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dotan Cohen]

On 27/02/2008, Nate Bargmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Of course I read Dilbert. And I am full aware of the corporate IT
>  > environment. But I'm still 30-young and think that I can change the
>  > world by trying. I'm so naive that I encourage others to do the same.
>  > I know that I'm doomed to the same fate as Winston Smith.
>
> I hope you can retain your youthful optimism before the system grinds
>  you up and leaves you cynical, embittered and looking for easier
>  battles to fight.  At work I've given up and use whatever schlop they
>  throw on their machines.  After work I come home to my nice Debian
>  machines that are configured to my preferences.

I'm stubborn. But I hope that you are right and I will work to keep
making the changes. Lenin had a good quote for this, but I can't
remember or find it at the moment.

>  > My attitude has gotten my university and my local green club to send
>  > documents in PDF instead of Word, and I write to sites that do not
>  > display properly in Firefox. I write to software houses (Adobe)
>  > requesting they port to Linux, and I write to hardware vendors (ATI)
>  > demanding Linux support. Every week. Am I making a difference? Maybe.
>  > If one out of one hundred OOo || Firefox || Linux users would stand up
>  > and let themselves be known, we'd be in a much better position. I'm
>  > setting an example.
>
>
> Congrats on your success.  I suspect you're not in the USA so you'll
>  likely find people more accepting of and willing to try Free Software.
>  Here things that are offered for free (gratis) are often considered
>  shoddy or sub-standard.  Many people live by the axiom "you get what
>  you pay for" and therefore believe that a few hundred dollars for an
>  office suite is money well spent.  Someone claiming to offer an office
>  suite at no cost is to be considered with caution as they must have
>  some other agenda.  This kind of thinking permeates corporate IT as
>  well as individuals and is why MS has such a hold on the IT market
>  here.  Another big reason is that people are simply reluctant to step
>  out of their comfort zone and since they know MS they stick with it,
>  warts and all.

Same problems here. The "you get what you pay for" is more often than
not "you get what you can pirate" but that just makes the deal
sweeter. What I find amazing is that people are so used to the faults
of MS that they have trained themselves to think the faults are
computer faults. The don't miss the MS faults when switching to Linux,
but jump at any Linux fault. It's only after using Linux for a month
and then sitting at a Windows computer do people realize just how bad
Windows is.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Jamin Davis]

Dan H. wrote:


I know cygwin, and it is on my to-be-installed list. I can't live
without find and grep and xargs and... well, a lot of good grep will
do me in a world full of Word documents.. ;-)


There was a .DOC to text filter prog, Antiword that could be used in a 
pipe with grep ;)


--
Jamin @ Home @ Chester UK


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Nate Bargmann]

* Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008 Feb 26 08:00 -0600]:

> Of course I read Dilbert. And I am full aware of the corporate IT
> environment. But I'm still 30-young and think that I can change the
> world by trying. I'm so naive that I encourage others to do the same.
> I know that I'm doomed to the same fate as Winston Smith.

I hope you can retain your youthful optimism before the system grinds
you up and leaves you cynical, embittered and looking for easier
battles to fight.  At work I've given up and use whatever schlop they 
throw on their machines.  After work I come home to my nice Debian
machines that are configured to my preferences.

> My attitude has gotten my university and my local green club to send
> documents in PDF instead of Word, and I write to sites that do not
> display properly in Firefox. I write to software houses (Adobe)
> requesting they port to Linux, and I write to hardware vendors (ATI)
> demanding Linux support. Every week. Am I making a difference? Maybe.
> If one out of one hundred OOo || Firefox || Linux users would stand up
> and let themselves be known, we'd be in a much better position. I'm
> setting an example.

Congrats on your success.  I suspect you're not in the USA so you'll
likely find people more accepting of and willing to try Free Software. 
Here things that are offered for free (gratis) are often considered
shoddy or sub-standard.  Many people live by the axiom "you get what
you pay for" and therefore believe that a few hundred dollars for an
office suite is money well spent.  Someone claiming to offer an office
suite at no cost is to be considered with caution as they must have
some other agenda.  This kind of thinking permeates corporate IT as
well as individuals and is why MS has such a hold on the IT market
here.  Another big reason is that people are simply reluctant to step
out of their comfort zone and since they know MS they stick with it,
warts and all.

- Nate >>

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dave Sherohman]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 10:22:31AM -0600, Chuck Rhode wrote:
> By my count that six arguments anti to two pro.  IT wins!

...in the context of duplicating processes which are mission-critical
and/or changing the location of sensitive data.

Most of those anti arguments don't really apply to such things as "IT
only supports MSIE, but I can accomplish more and/or do it more securely
with Firefox" or even "I need to extract relevant information from this
spreadsheet which will take eons to do by hand, but a quick (non-IT-
approved) shell/other script will have it done in 5 minutes".

IT isn't always wrong.  IT isn't always right.  You need to consider the
actual situation to see whether something unsupported is appropriate or
not.

-- 
News aggregation meets world domination.  Can you see the fnews?
http://seethefnews.com/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Chuck Rhode]

Dotan Cohen wrote this on Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 02:53:51PM +0200.  My
reply is below.

> If using a portable app makes no permanent changes to the machine,
> why should it not be allowed?

This is the old, old End-User Programming argument, isn't it?

... so let's say you are a clerk (flunky) who knows a thing or two
about running spreadsheets on a PC.  You design, code, and test your
own spreadsheet that duplicates a corporate application.  You propose
your department adopt it and drop corporate IT's application program.
Here are your arguments for doing so:

o  It's quick.  There's no lag time in getting results.

o  You can work offline.

That's your parochial (tactical) point of view: Get your job done and
get on to something else.

IT, on the other hand, has a company-wide (strategic) attitude.  They
are a cost center, not a profit center.  Their job is to minimize
costs for the whole organization, not just one department.  Here are
reasons why they may figure it's their job to say, "No:"

o Spreadsheet software (even open source) is not free.  It takes
resources to keep the programs up-to-date and to train End-Users.
(This is not a strong argument.  Usually spreadsheet software is
already supported for reasons other than the issue at hand.)

o If you can work offline, you can take work home.  This opens the
organization to claims for compensation for time spent "off the
clock."

o If work leaves the office, other people (the Family) may see it
(inadvertently).  This makes you individually responsible for data
security, a responsibility most induhviduals are not cut out for.

o If work is hauled around, it may be lost or stolen.  This makes you
and the company liable to the shareholders (owners) for any
inappropriate release of privileged information including insider
trading, loss of proprietary secrets, and identity theft.  Also
portions of the work may be irrecoverable; the data may become
incomplete.

o By trying to duplicate corporate calculations, you may inadvertently
introduce subtle mistakes that magnify your misunderstanding.  Thus,
the data may become wildly (or worse it may become slightly)
inaccurate.

o You may not be able to keep up with approved changes in corporate
calculations.

o When you leave the organization (or die of natural causes or are
shot), nobody else will have a clue what you were up to.

By my count that six arguments anti to two pro.  IT wins!

-- 
.. Chuck Rhode, Sheboygan, WI, USA
.. Weather:  http://LacusVeris.com/WX
.. 20° — Wind NNW 17 mph — Sky haze.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dotan Cohen]

On 26/02/2008, Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dotan Cohen wrote:
>
>  *** Major snip ***
>
> > I'm setting an example.
>
>
> Let's not break your arm pattin' yourself on the back.
>
>  More people then you think are doing the same thing you claim to be
>  doing - thus, you are NOT setting an example.
>
>  You're not that important to claim such a remark/comment.
>
>  More appropriately stated would be: I'm doing my part to help the OS
>  community.
>

I'm willing to accept your argument.

I am doing my part to help the FOSS community.

Better?

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 08:34:23AM -0600, Chris wrote:
> Dotan Cohen wrote:
> *** Major snip ***
> >I'm setting an example.
> 
> Let's not break your arm pattin' yourself on the back.
> 
> More people then you think are doing the same thing you claim to be 
> doing - thus, you are NOT setting an example.
> 
> You're not that important to claim such a remark/comment.
> 
> More appropriately stated would be: I'm doing my part to help the OS 
> community.

I hope that you are not setting an example by this example.

Dotan may not be setting an example among your circle of enlightened
beings but he very well may be in his circle.  He's not breaking his arm
patting himself on the back, instead he is making explicit what is
occult on email.  Unless someone from his circle is also on this list,
we can't see that he is leading by example except by being told so.

Since not everyone on this list is as enlightened as you two are, then
he may be leading by example (or, to give the devil his due, by claimed
example) here too.

Every individual is equally important in the great scheme of things.  It
is only from narrow viewpoints that some seem more important than
others.

Thanks.

Doug.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dotan Cohen]

On 26/02/2008, Richard Lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 03:54:06PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>
>  [...]
>
> >
>  > My attitude has gotten my university and my local green club to send
>  > documents in PDF instead of Word, and I write to sites that do not
>  > display properly in Firefox. I write to software houses (Adobe)
>  > requesting they port to Linux, and I write to hardware vendors (ATI)
>  > demanding Linux support. Every week. Am I making a difference? Maybe.
>  > If one out of one hundred OOo || Firefox || Linux users would stand up
>  > and let themselves be known, we'd be in a much better position. I'm
>  > setting an example.
>
>
> Well done that man!  !ןתוד,דובכה לכ  I wish I were as dedicated (I do
>  occasionally write, too).

Thanks.
יופי של עברית, ריטשארד!

Just to flow my own boat, some of my letters are documented here, but
I really need to spend some time updating these pages:
http://dotancohen.com/eng/linux_compatibility.php
http://dotancohen.com/eng/firefox_compatibility.php
http://dotancohen.com/eng/support_linux_firefox.php
http://dotancohen.com/eng/software_in_linux.html

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Andrius]

Dotan Cohen wrote:

On 26/02/2008, Nate Bargmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 > Additionally, they can see that running these programs are important
 > to the user. Remember, IT is there to HELP the user do what he needs,
 > not prevent him from doing what he needs.

In a perfect world, perhaps.  In real life, not so much.

 > If IT wants to support
 > software XX and not YY that's fine, but unless YY is known dangerous
 > (Kazaa, for instance) then IT should not have veto power in it's use,
 > especially if using the program requires no registry changes such as
 > an installed (not portable) app would do. If using a portable app
 > makes no permanent changes to the machine, why should it not be
 > allowed?

Sigh.  I don't mean to be unkind, but have you actually worked in the
 corporate world of IT or been subject to its whims?  Have you ever read
 the Dilbert comic strip?  Nothing in the Dilbert strip is a stretch of
 the truth, in fact reality is often more bizarre.

 Coporate IT is driven by sweetheart deals from suppliers to IT
 management.  It is full of fiefdoms and "not invented here" syndromes.
 It is a meca to the power hungry and the control freaks.  It has little
 to do with helping the workers use the best tool for the job.  If that
 happens, it's often the result of an accident or an oversight and will
 soon be corrected.

 I apologize for being so kind toward corporate IT.


Of course I read Dilbert. And I am full aware of the corporate IT
environment. But I'm still 30-young and think that I can change the
world by trying. I'm so naive that I encourage others to do the same.
I know that I'm doomed to the same fate as Winston Smith.

My attitude has gotten my university and my local green club to send
documents in PDF instead of Word, and I write to sites that do not
display properly in Firefox. I write to software houses (Adobe)
requesting they port to Linux, and I write to hardware vendors (ATI)
demanding Linux support. Every week. Am I making a difference? Maybe.
If one out of one hundred OOo || Firefox || Linux users would stand up
and let themselves be known, we'd be in a much better position. I'm
setting an example.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?


You can try Open Solaris as well. Sun ships DVD for free now.
But if you will find that Open Solaris is too slow or something else - 
comeback to Linux. Ideal OS does not exist.


Andrius


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Richard Lyons]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 03:54:06PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:

[...]
> 
> My attitude has gotten my university and my local green club to send
> documents in PDF instead of Word, and I write to sites that do not
> display properly in Firefox. I write to software houses (Adobe)
> requesting they port to Linux, and I write to hardware vendors (ATI)
> demanding Linux support. Every week. Am I making a difference? Maybe.
> If one out of one hundred OOo || Firefox || Linux users would stand up
> and let themselves be known, we'd be in a much better position. I'm
> setting an example.

Well done that man!  !ןתוד,דובכה לכ  I wish I were as dedicated (I do
occasionally write, too).

-- 
richard

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Walt L. Williams]

On Tuesday 26 February 2008 06:38:31 am Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Nate Bargmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  Coporate IT is driven by sweetheart deals from suppliers to IT
> >  management.  It is full of fiefdoms and "not invented here" syndromes.
> >  It is a meca to the power hungry and the control freaks.  It has little
> >  to do with helping the workers use the best tool for the job.  If that
> >  happens, it's often the result of an accident or an oversight and will
> >  soon be corrected.
>
> Not to mention that the IT department sometimes is run by people with
> very little understanding of that field.

Either that they were very nicely conditioned by the school they attended.

W


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Chris]

Dotan Cohen wrote:

*** Major snip ***

I'm setting an example.


Let's not break your arm pattin' yourself on the back.

More people then you think are doing the same thing you claim to be 
doing - thus, you are NOT setting an example.


You're not that important to claim such a remark/comment.

More appropriately stated would be: I'm doing my part to help the OS 
community.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dotan Cohen]

On 26/02/2008, Nate Bargmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Additionally, they can see that running these programs are important
>  > to the user. Remember, IT is there to HELP the user do what he needs,
>  > not prevent him from doing what he needs.
>
> In a perfect world, perhaps.  In real life, not so much.
>
>  > If IT wants to support
>  > software XX and not YY that's fine, but unless YY is known dangerous
>  > (Kazaa, for instance) then IT should not have veto power in it's use,
>  > especially if using the program requires no registry changes such as
>  > an installed (not portable) app would do. If using a portable app
>  > makes no permanent changes to the machine, why should it not be
>  > allowed?
>
> Sigh.  I don't mean to be unkind, but have you actually worked in the
>  corporate world of IT or been subject to its whims?  Have you ever read
>  the Dilbert comic strip?  Nothing in the Dilbert strip is a stretch of
>  the truth, in fact reality is often more bizarre.
>
>  Coporate IT is driven by sweetheart deals from suppliers to IT
>  management.  It is full of fiefdoms and "not invented here" syndromes.
>  It is a meca to the power hungry and the control freaks.  It has little
>  to do with helping the workers use the best tool for the job.  If that
>  happens, it's often the result of an accident or an oversight and will
>  soon be corrected.
>
>  I apologize for being so kind toward corporate IT.

Of course I read Dilbert. And I am full aware of the corporate IT
environment. But I'm still 30-young and think that I can change the
world by trying. I'm so naive that I encourage others to do the same.
I know that I'm doomed to the same fate as Winston Smith.

My attitude has gotten my university and my local green club to send
documents in PDF instead of Word, and I write to sites that do not
display properly in Firefox. I write to software houses (Adobe)
requesting they port to Linux, and I write to hardware vendors (ATI)
demanding Linux support. Every week. Am I making a difference? Maybe.
If one out of one hundred OOo || Firefox || Linux users would stand up
and let themselves be known, we'd be in a much better position. I'm
setting an example.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Nate Bargmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Coporate IT is driven by sweetheart deals from suppliers to IT
>  management.  It is full of fiefdoms and "not invented here" syndromes.
>  It is a meca to the power hungry and the control freaks.  It has little
>  to do with helping the workers use the best tool for the job.  If that
>  happens, it's often the result of an accident or an oversight and will
>  soon be corrected.

Not to mention that the IT department sometimes is run by people with
very little understanding of that field.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Nate Bargmann]

* Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008 Feb 26 06:59 -0600]:
> On 26/02/2008, Nate Bargmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  > Actually, if he's got his own machine, then he can install the
> >  > portableapps applications locally, without a flash drive. It's much
> >  > faster that way, in fact, at the university I copy portable firefox to
> >  > the machine I'm sitting at and then erase it when I leave. I recommend
> >  > portable Open Office and mplayer as well.
> >
> > That's all well and good so long as the company's IT dept hasn't
> >  installed an audit program that routinely reports what software has run
> >  on the machine.  I work in such an environment and found it best to
> >  leave the machine well enough alone even though I'm a part of the IT
> >  dept.
> >
> >  Remember, the machine belongs to the company, not the employee unless
> >  the employee has been granted permission to install software.  OTOH,
> >  it's easier to ask forgiveness than to receive permission.
> >
> 
> Additionally, they can see that running these programs are important
> to the user. Remember, IT is there to HELP the user do what he needs,
> not prevent him from doing what he needs.

In a perfect world, perhaps.  In real life, not so much.

> If IT wants to support
> software XX and not YY that's fine, but unless YY is known dangerous
> (Kazaa, for instance) then IT should not have veto power in it's use,
> especially if using the program requires no registry changes such as
> an installed (not portable) app would do. If using a portable app
> makes no permanent changes to the machine, why should it not be
> allowed?

Sigh.  I don't mean to be unkind, but have you actually worked in the
corporate world of IT or been subject to its whims?  Have you ever read
the Dilbert comic strip?  Nothing in the Dilbert strip is a stretch of
the truth, in fact reality is often more bizarre.

Coporate IT is driven by sweetheart deals from suppliers to IT
management.  It is full of fiefdoms and "not invented here" syndromes. 
It is a meca to the power hungry and the control freaks.  It has little
to do with helping the workers use the best tool for the job.  If that
happens, it's often the result of an accident or an oversight and will
soon be corrected.

I apologize for being so kind toward corporate IT.

- Nate >>

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dotan Cohen]

On 26/02/2008, Nate Bargmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Actually, if he's got his own machine, then he can install the
>  > portableapps applications locally, without a flash drive. It's much
>  > faster that way, in fact, at the university I copy portable firefox to
>  > the machine I'm sitting at and then erase it when I leave. I recommend
>  > portable Open Office and mplayer as well.
>
> That's all well and good so long as the company's IT dept hasn't
>  installed an audit program that routinely reports what software has run
>  on the machine.  I work in such an environment and found it best to
>  leave the machine well enough alone even though I'm a part of the IT
>  dept.
>
>  Remember, the machine belongs to the company, not the employee unless
>  the employee has been granted permission to install software.  OTOH,
>  it's easier to ask forgiveness than to receive permission.
>

Additionally, they can see that running these programs are important
to the user. Remember, IT is there to HELP the user do what he needs,
not prevent him from doing what he needs. If IT wants to support
software XX and not YY that's fine, but unless YY is known dangerous
(Kazaa, for instance) then IT should not have veto power in it's use,
especially if using the program requires no registry changes such as
an installed (not portable) app would do. If using a portable app
makes no permanent changes to the machine, why should it not be
allowed?

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Nate Bargmann]

* Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008 Feb 25 19:03 -0600]:

> Actually, if he's got his own machine, then he can install the
> portableapps applications locally, without a flash drive. It's much
> faster that way, in fact, at the university I copy portable firefox to
> the machine I'm sitting at and then erase it when I leave. I recommend
> portable Open Office and mplayer as well.

That's all well and good so long as the company's IT dept hasn't
installed an audit program that routinely reports what software has run
on the machine.  I work in such an environment and found it best to
leave the machine well enough alone even though I'm a part of the IT
dept.

Remember, the machine belongs to the company, not the employee unless
the employee has been granted permission to install software.  OTOH,
it's easier to ask forgiveness than to receive permission.

- Nate >>

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Cousin Stanley]

> 
> I can't live without find and grep and xargs and ... 
> well, a lot of good grep will do me in a world 
> full of Word documents.. ;-)

  Haven't tried  Windows Grep  myself,
  but it  might  at least be worth a look 

http://www.wingrep.com/


-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Damon L. Chesser]

Dan H. wrote:

Well, I guess the subject caught your attention after all.

Of course I'm not saying goodbye to Debian, at least not voluntarily and
certainly not at home. But I just changed jobs, and so moved from a self-
administered Debian box to a locked-up, preinstalled all-M$ Dell thing.
M$ Office, M$IE, Lotus Notes 6 (soon to be migrated to Outlook Express).

I've never really used Windows before and thought of it as just another
system -- I like Debian, you like Windows, no sweat.

Boy, what a piece of crap. It boggles the mind. This is how the world's
office workers get their work done? Or do they?

I managed to install Opera in a directory owned by myself, but whenever I
try to open any page it keeps asking me for usernames and passwords,
which IE somehow seems to inherently know about. That thing doesn't even
have tabs or a decent bookmark handler. That's the #1 browser in the
world! WTF? Am I missing something here?

OK, this rant really doesn't belong in this group, but I need some
sympathy right now.

Thanks for listening,
--D.

  
I worked for a very large computer OEM MFG as a "High Complexity, Alt-OS 
Server support Analyst" (If it was one of our Servers, and you had *nix 
on it, you got me if you called for support.)  We opened a mirrored site 
with the Linux support capability for redundancy.  I moved from 
supporting Windows on servers to Linux.  I could not get the management 
to see that, as a Linux support tech, we NEEDED to run Linux on our 
boxes (if for no other reason, we were immersed in the OS) or to have a 
2nd box running Linux.  They always came back with "you have vms you can 
access".  Most of my team mates had never run Linux before (but we had 
extensive training before taking the first calls) and it would have been 
a huge benefit to have been running Linux with windows on a vm (if 
needed to mesh with the corp. environment).  Again, they said use the 
Linux vms.  I asked them how well the Windows techs could do their jobs 
if they were forced to run Linux and could only access Windows on a vm.  
Def ears.  IT would not let us run Linux, it did not fit into the IT 
security model  provided by IT.  All internal apps were windows based 
and half would not work in Linux.


All in all, very frustrating.  The ONLY dis-satisfaction I had with that 
job.  I had to support my OS of choice, but could not run it myself.  I 
do not ever want to take a job where I am forced to run Windows again.  
Ever.  I can not tell you how many times I had to leave the customer 
hanging because IE crashed, or my box had to reboot due to some Windows 
bug or memory leak that would not clear up.  And the entire time we had 
an official Linux desktop, just IT policy said no.


I share your pain.

--
Damon L. Chesser
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dotan Cohen]

On 25/02/2008, Elf & Dmitryi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Portable Apps allow running everything off the flash drive and have the
>  app/user data saved on the flash drive, too. So basically it's what it
>  says - e. g. Firefox is portable on a flash drive with all the
>  bookmarks, history and settings. A properly set-up flash drive with all
>  the portable apps doesn't require one ever touches the regular Windows
>  nightmare. As a flash drive is usually formatted to FAT, it doesn't
>  require any permission checks (under Windows, only NTFS supports user
>  permissions).
>
>  Portable Opera can also be set up to run cacheless (caching to RAM
>  only) or write its cache to the system's temporary directory. That
>  speeds up flash drive operation somewhat (more of an issue with older,
>  slower flash drives).
>
>  Same about Linux live CDs - both Knoppix and MCN Live could be booted
>  off a flash drive AND save user's home directory and configuration to
>  the flash drive (also supported when booting off a live CD - there's a
>  CD switch for scanning for stored config/homedir).

Actually, if he's got his own machine, then he can install the
portableapps applications locally, without a flash drive. It's much
faster that way, in fact, at the university I copy portable firefox to
the machine I'm sitting at and then erase it when I leave. I recommend
portable Open Office and mplayer as well.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Raj Kiran Grandhi]

Dan H. wrote:

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 09:15:47PM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
 

Remember everything you've noted when the Microsofties remind you that
Linux "is not ready for the desktop".


I must admit though that I was pretty annoyed when my wife wanted to use
sound on our home Debian box and it took me quite a bit of wading
through the system to realize that I had to manually add her to the
"audio" group. That's not desktop fitness, either.


For those starting out on linux, and using the default gnome desktop,
"System->Administration->Users and Groups" will let you 
add/modify/remove users and control the level of privileges of each.

So you can actually specify all the privileges when creating a user.

Even if you 'adduser' from the shell, then you have the option of 
specifying the additional groups on the command line.


In my experience, I find that people with no prior experience with 
computers have no difficulty coping up with linux at all. I recently 
installed ubuntu on my father-in-law's home pc, and he was pleasantly 
surprised at the lack of viruses, ease of copying photos from his camera 
 (in windows, 'it complains of virus'), ease of burning a cd (in 
windows, he has to wade through nero), ease of watching movies (mplayer 
plays everything unlike in windows)


--
Raj Kiran Grandhi
--
At the source of every error which is blamed on the computer, you will 
find at least two human errors, including the error of blaming it on the 
computer.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Yuriy Kuznetsov]

This link appeared on gmail page. Kind of Micro$oft about Micro$oft
propaganda. Nice one ;o)

http://www.microsoft.com/ireland/getthefacts/default.mspx

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Elf & Dmitryi]

Portable Apps allow running everything off the flash drive and have the
app/user data saved on the flash drive, too. So basically it's what it
says - e. g. Firefox is portable on a flash drive with all the
bookmarks, history and settings. A properly set-up flash drive with all
the portable apps doesn't require one ever touches the regular Windows
nightmare. As a flash drive is usually formatted to FAT, it doesn't
require any permission checks (under Windows, only NTFS supports user
permissions).

Portable Opera can also be set up to run cacheless (caching to RAM
only) or write its cache to the system's temporary directory. That
speeds up flash drive operation somewhat (more of an issue with older,
slower flash drives).

Same about Linux live CDs - both Knoppix and MCN Live could be booted
off a flash drive AND save user's home directory and configuration to
the flash drive (also supported when booting off a live CD - there's a
CD switch for scanning for stored config/homedir).

On 25.02.2008 at 20:31 Dan H. wrote:

>On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 04:18:03PM -0600, Elf & Dmitryi wrote:
>> Here's a couple things...
>> 
>> http://mcnlive.org/ - MCN Live, a live CD that can also be installed
on
>> a flash drive. There's Knoppix, too. http://www.knopper.de
>> 
>> http://www.sysresccd.org/ - another live CD that can edit Windows NT
>> passwords.
>> 
>> http://portableapps.com/ has a collection of Firefox, Filezilla,
GIMP
>> etc., all portable and launchable from a flash drive.
>> 
>> And, well, the author's own Windows demoronising/essential tools
>> package (it will write to Windows directory, so for most of the
>> installed items it'll require an admin account, but Sysresc CD might
>> help with that). This also flips around three hundred registry
settings
>> to somewhat more humane, making Windows a tad faster and more
bearable.
>
>That sounds good, but I'm not going to mess with the system. I must
>admit that it works OK; the Lotus Email and calendar things and Excel
>cover 90% of my work, IE 9% more and the rest I can do without. And
>office work is only 30% of what I do. I can and will live with it but
>fun it ain't. Awww- if using the computer were too much fun I'd be
>spending too much time in the office and not in production.
>
>Thanks for the hints though. Saved for future reference.
>
>--D.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dan H.]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 09:15:47PM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
 
> Remember everything you've noted when the Microsofties remind you that
> Linux "is not ready for the desktop".

I must admit though that I was pretty annoyed when my wife wanted to use
sound on our home Debian box and it took me quite a bit of wading
through the system to realize that I had to manually add her to the
"audio" group. That's not desktop fitness, either. In Windows you at
least know the sound works until you manage to find the "no Sound"
scheme.

> P.S. Sounds like you went to work for the company I work for, except
> we're moving from Notes 5.something to 7.0 and it's a disaster.  Let's
> not even mention the train wreck (I work for a railroad) that IE 7.0
> has been.

This is a major semiconductor manufacturer that's doing excellent
business. I hope the OE migration won't hurt too much ;-)
 
--D.



signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dan H.]

On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 07:15:27AM +0530, Raj Kiran Grandhi wrote:
> Well, you have just begun. Wait till you experience the real horrors of 
> windows, aka viruses, spyware, adware, etc, though with your unix like 
> browsing habits, you may be less prone to be fooled by malware sites.

Yeah, there's no problem. Also I've deactivated all of IE's plugins
(except pdf).

> You might want to install cygwin, it gives you a unix-like environment 
> within windows. It was a life-saver during my brief corporate 
> employment. See http://www.cygwin.com
 
I know cygwin, and it is on my to-be-installed list. I can't live
without find and grep and xargs and... well, a lot of good grep will
do me in a world full of Word documents.. ;-)

--D.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dan H.]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 04:18:03PM -0600, Elf & Dmitryi wrote:
> Here's a couple things...
> 
> http://mcnlive.org/ - MCN Live, a live CD that can also be installed on
> a flash drive. There's Knoppix, too. http://www.knopper.de
> 
> http://www.sysresccd.org/ - another live CD that can edit Windows NT
> passwords.
> 
> http://portableapps.com/ has a collection of Firefox, Filezilla, GIMP
> etc., all portable and launchable from a flash drive.
> 
> And, well, the author's own Windows demoronising/essential tools
> package (it will write to Windows directory, so for most of the
> installed items it'll require an admin account, but Sysresc CD might
> help with that). This also flips around three hundred registry settings
> to somewhat more humane, making Windows a tad faster and more bearable.

That sounds good, but I'm not going to mess with the system. I must
admit that it works OK; the Lotus Email and calendar things and Excel
cover 90% of my work, IE 9% more and the rest I can do without. And
office work is only 30% of what I do. I can and will live with it but
fun it ain't. Awww- if using the computer were too much fun I'd be
spending too much time in the office and not in production.

Thanks for the hints though. Saved for future reference.

--D.

 


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian or Microsoft going open source

[Dave Sherohman]

On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 12:22:58PM +0100, Misko wrote:
> Now that MS is going open source (it was on evening national TV news in my
> country) things are surely going to be better :)
> As mentioned news was not very clear can somebody explain what did
> MS actually made available? Is it source code or just some documentation?

Absolutely nothing, of course.  They've promised (again) that they'll
open their file formats and play nice with the FOSS community, but they
haven't taken any actual action on those promises yet, AFAIK.  Whether
they're any more likely to do so this time around than the last half-
dozen times they made essentially the same promise is left as an
exercise for the reader.

> While talking about MS: did they buy Yahoo (this was also on
> national TV about a month ago)?

As of yesterday, no, but MS appears very unlikely to give up and is
making all the moves to initiate a hostile takeover.  I haven't read
today's news yet, but I figure it's going to be in the news for at least
another couple months before finally being resolved.

-- 
News aggregation meets world domination.  Can you see the fnews?
http://seethefnews.com/


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian or Microsoft going open source

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 02/25/08 05:22, Misko wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 04:12:31PM -0800, Kelly Clowers wrote:
>>>  Boy, what a piece of crap. It boggles the mind. This is how the world's
>>>  office workers get their work done? Or do they?
>> It seems implausible, doesn't it?
>> I used to be fairly efficent on Windows, but it took a lot of tweaking. Then
>> something happened and you had to reinstall, and all tweaks where lost...
> 
> Now that MS is going open source (it was on evening national TV news in my
> country) things are surely going to be better :)
> As mentioned news was not very clear can somebody explain what did
> MS actually made available? Is it source code or just some documentation?

"Just" documentation, and with an iffy, probably landmine-filled
license.

> While talking about MS: did they buy Yahoo (this was also on
> national TV about a month ago)?

Google will tell you.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

"(Women are) like compilers.  They take simple statements and
make them into big productions."
Pitr Dubovitch
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFHwtWSS9HxQb37XmcRAnw2AJ9ORPQQYSq1xJNj7Zgv21GLP4NXJACg5Gyn
zBw4fTVejFglF3tCqpBZSh0=
=FdKT
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian or Microsoft going open source

[Misko]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 04:12:31PM -0800, Kelly Clowers wrote:
> >  Boy, what a piece of crap. It boggles the mind. This is how the world's
> >  office workers get their work done? Or do they?
> 
> It seems implausible, doesn't it?
> I used to be fairly efficent on Windows, but it took a lot of tweaking. Then
> something happened and you had to reinstall, and all tweaks where lost...

Now that MS is going open source (it was on evening national TV news in my
country) things are surely going to be better :)
As mentioned news was not very clear can somebody explain what did
MS actually made available? Is it source code or just some documentation?

While talking about MS: did they buy Yahoo (this was also on
national TV about a month ago)?

Misko


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Nate Bargmann]

* Dan H. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008 Feb 24 15:57 -0600]:
> WTF? Am I missing something here?

Nope.  You're right on the mark.

Remember everything you've noted when the Microsofties remind you that
Linux "is not ready for the desktop".

- Nate >>

P.S. Sounds like you went to work for the company I work for, except
we're moving from Notes 5.something to 7.0 and it's a disaster.  Let's
not even mention the train wreck (I work for a railroad) that IE 7.0
has been.

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Raj Kiran Grandhi]

Dan H. wrote:

Well, I guess the subject caught your attention after all.

Of course I'm not saying goodbye to Debian, at least not voluntarily and
certainly not at home. But I just changed jobs, and so moved from a self-
administered Debian box to a locked-up, preinstalled all-M$ Dell thing.
M$ Office, M$IE, Lotus Notes 6 (soon to be migrated to Outlook Express).

I've never really used Windows before and thought of it as just another
system -- I like Debian, you like Windows, no sweat.

Boy, what a piece of crap. It boggles the mind. This is how the world's
office workers get their work done? Or do they?

I managed to install Opera in a directory owned by myself, but whenever I
try to open any page it keeps asking me for usernames and passwords,
which IE somehow seems to inherently know about. That thing doesn't even
have tabs or a decent bookmark handler. That's the #1 browser in the
world! WTF? Am I missing something here?

OK, this rant really doesn't belong in this group, but I need some
sympathy right now.

Thanks for listening,
--D.



Well, you have just begun. Wait till you experience the real horrors of 
windows, aka viruses, spyware, adware, etc, though with your unix like 
browsing habits, you may be less prone to be fooled by malware sites.


You might want to install cygwin, it gives you a unix-like environment 
within windows. It was a life-saver during my brief corporate 
employment. See http://www.cygwin.com


--
Raj Kiran Grandhi
--
At the source of every error which is blamed on the computer, you will 
find at least two human errors, including the error of blaming it on the 
computer.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Kelly Clowers]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Dan H. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, I guess the subject caught your attention after all.
>
>  Of course I'm not saying goodbye to Debian, at least not voluntarily and
>  certainly not at home. But I just changed jobs, and so moved from a self-
>  administered Debian box to a locked-up, preinstalled all-M$ Dell thing.
>  M$ Office, M$IE, Lotus Notes 6 (soon to be migrated to Outlook Express).

Outlook *Express*?! Are they mad? Outlook is bad and Notes is worse,
but at least Notes is powerful and awful. OE is weak and awful.

>  I've never really used Windows before and thought of it as just another
>  system -- I like Debian, you like Windows, no sweat.
>
>  Boy, what a piece of crap. It boggles the mind. This is how the world's
>  office workers get their work done? Or do they?

It seems implausible, doesn't it?
I used to be fairly efficent on Windows, but it took a lot of tweaking. Then
something happened and you had to reinstall, and all tweaks where lost...

>
>  I managed to install Opera in a directory owned by myself, but whenever I
>  try to open any page it keeps asking me for usernames and passwords,
>  which IE somehow seems to inherently know about.

Yeah, in a domain environment, IE can tie directly into the Windows NTLM
system, and use the credentials you logged into Windows with.

Firefox NTLM:
http://codebetter.com/blogs/eric.wise/archive/2006/11/16/Note-to-self_3A00_-Firefox-Windows-Authentication.aspx

Opera 9.0 (for Windows) and up is supposed to have basic support for NTLM.
The 9.5 betas may have improved support and there are proxies that you can
run on your local machine that will do NTLM auth.

PortableApps.com may help for some things.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Elf & Dmitryi]

Here's a couple things...

http://mcnlive.org/ - MCN Live, a live CD that can also be installed on
a flash drive. There's Knoppix, too. http://www.knopper.de

http://www.sysresccd.org/ - another live CD that can edit Windows NT
passwords.

http://portableapps.com/ has a collection of Firefox, Filezilla, GIMP
etc., all portable and launchable from a flash drive.

And, well, the author's own Windows demoronising/essential tools
package (it will write to Windows directory, so for most of the
installed items it'll require an admin account, but Sysresc CD might
help with that). This also flips around three hundred registry settings
to somewhat more humane, making Windows a tad faster and more bearable.

http://my.opera.com/S-Priest/blog/commander-kit

On 24.02.2008 at 22:52 Dan H. wrote:

>Well, I guess the subject caught your attention after all.
>
>Of course I'm not saying goodbye to Debian, at least not voluntarily
and
>certainly not at home. But I just changed jobs, and so moved from a
self-
>administered Debian box to a locked-up, preinstalled all-M$ Dell
thing.
>M$ Office, M$IE, Lotus Notes 6 (soon to be migrated to Outlook
Express).
>
>I've never really used Windows before and thought of it as just
another
>system -- I like Debian, you like Windows, no sweat.
>
>Boy, what a piece of crap. It boggles the mind. This is how the
world's
>office workers get their work done? Or do they?
>
>I managed to install Opera in a directory owned by myself, but
whenever I
>try to open any page it keeps asking me for usernames and passwords,
>which IE somehow seems to inherently know about. That thing doesn't
even
>have tabs or a decent bookmark handler. That's the #1 browser in the
>world! WTF? Am I missing something here?
>
>OK, this rant really doesn't belong in this group, but I need some
>sympathy right now.
>
>Thanks for listening,
>--D.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Goodbye Debian

[Richard Lyons]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 10:52:00PM +0100, Dan H. wrote:

> Well, I guess the subject caught your attention after all.
> 
> Of course I'm not saying goodbye to Debian, at least not voluntarily and
> certainly not at home. But I just changed jobs, and so moved from a self-
> administered Debian box to a locked-up, preinstalled all-M$ Dell thing.
> M$ Office, M$IE, Lotus Notes 6 (soon to be migrated to Outlook Express).
> 
> I've never really used Windows before and thought of it as just another
> system -- I like Debian, you like Windows, no sweat.
> 
> Boy, what a piece of crap. It boggles the mind. This is how the world's
> office workers get their work done? Or do they?
> 
> I managed to install Opera in a directory owned by myself, but whenever I
> try to open any page it keeps asking me for usernames and passwords,
> which IE somehow seems to inherently know about. That thing doesn't even
> have tabs or a decent bookmark handler. That's the #1 browser in the
> world! WTF? Am I missing something here?
> 
> OK, this rant really doesn't belong in this group, but I need some
> sympathy right now.

Understood.  That is how I feel every time I have to use my wife's
university-supplied laptop.  Or try to help her untangle some horrors
from m$word.

with much sympathy,

-- 
richard


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[OT] Goodbye Debian

[Dan H.]

Well, I guess the subject caught your attention after all.

Of course I'm not saying goodbye to Debian, at least not voluntarily and
certainly not at home. But I just changed jobs, and so moved from a self-
administered Debian box to a locked-up, preinstalled all-M$ Dell thing.
M$ Office, M$IE, Lotus Notes 6 (soon to be migrated to Outlook Express).

I've never really used Windows before and thought of it as just another
system -- I like Debian, you like Windows, no sweat.

Boy, what a piece of crap. It boggles the mind. This is how the world's
office workers get their work done? Or do they?

I managed to install Opera in a directory owned by myself, but whenever I
try to open any page it keeps asking me for usernames and passwords,
which IE somehow seems to inherently know about. That thing doesn't even
have tabs or a decent bookmark handler. That's the #1 browser in the
world! WTF? Am I missing something here?

OK, this rant really doesn't belong in this group, but I need some
sympathy right now.

Thanks for listening,
--D.



signature.asc
Description: Digital signature