Re: OFF-TOPIC - cyberseguranca

[Yuri Musachio]

Então Vitor, você tem que lembrar que tudo é "rede", com outras formas de 
comunicação, outros protocolos... Mas continua sendo rede. E outra, já tem 
tempo que as chamdas telefônicas utilizam parte da rede de internet para 
trafegar... Claro, ali rola uma separação das comunicações.
Entretante, todos esses problemas que o amigo informou (que não sei se são 
possíveis, mas não dúvido) são problemas relacionados a própria tecnologia da 
telefonia em si.
Há uns anos atras, papo de quase 10 (acho que foi quando rolou aquela parada do 
WikiLeaks falando do NSA com a Dilma), recordo vagamento de ter rolado uma 
matérias sobre as vulnerabilidades da rede de telefonia, e que futuramente 
modificariam a maneira como a rede de telefonia funcionava (nível 
internacional).
Pelo visto isso ainda não foi pra frente, ou ao menos não é algo que tenhamos 
visto no momento.

Best,
On Jun 12 2024, at 10:05 am, luigui  wrote:
> Bom dia Vitor,
>
> nao sei se classificaria completamente como OFF-TOPIC
> Visto que configuracoes em nossas distros Debian poderao oportunamente serem 
> criadas sobre programas que venham a auxiliar no reconhecimento de chamadas.
> Nao estendendo, mas ja sao criadas antenas domesticas por agressores que 
> conseguem contornar os protocolos de comunicacao e seguranca das operadoras 
> estabelecendo conexoes mal intencionadas.
> Mas presumo que razao possa lhe assistir.
> Grato pelo retorno.
>
>
> On 12/06/2024 07:41, Vitor Hugo wrote:
> > Bom dia,
> >
> > Isto é um OFF-TOPIC.
> > Desconheço esse tipo de ataque, mas teoricamente se para isto funcionar 
> > deveria ser feito por uma chamada pela internet, acredito que somente por 
> > voz sem internet isso não seja possível.
> > Porem sei que aqui na lista possuem pessoas muito informadas e esclarecidas 
> > com conhecimentos técnicos de primeira linha que possam lhe ajudar mais.
> >
> > Em 11/06/2024 23:03, luiz gil escreveu:
> > > Boa noite aos amigos!
> > > Peco que retornem alguma experiencia ou mesmo uma ciencia de qualquer 
> > > natureza do abaixo enunciado como, leitura, conversas com experts ou 
> > > afins.
> > > Desculpem pelo topico ser talvez de baixa correlacao desta lista.
> > >
> > >
> > > E' possível que apenas ao receber uma chamada sem dizer uma palavra ao 
> > > agressor, você possa ter seu telefone infectado. Esse tipo de ataque é 
> > > conhecido como ataque de "chamada perdida" ou "chamada silenciosa". Nesse 
> > > cenário, os hackers exploram vulnerabilidades nos sistemas de comunicação 
> > > dos dispositivos para enviar uma chamada aparentemente inofensiva, mas 
> > > que na verdade contém códigos maliciosos.
> > > Quando você atende a chamada, mesmo sem falar nada, os códigos maliciosos 
> > > podem ser executados automaticamente no seu dispositivo, explorando 
> > > alguma vulnerabilidade do sistema operacional ou de um aplicativo. Esses 
> > > códigos podem instalar malware no seu telefone, roubar informações 
> > > pessoais, controlar remotamente o dispositivo, entre outras ações 
> > > prejudiciais.
> > > Portanto, é importante ter em mente que, mesmo sem interagir verbalmente 
> > > com o agressor durante uma chamada, seu telefone ainda pode estar em 
> > > risco se houver uma exploração de vulnerabilidade através dessa chamada. 
> > > Manter o software do seu dispositivo atualizado, evitar atender chamadas 
> > > de números desconhecidos e usar aplicativos de segurança confiáveis podem 
> > > ajudar a mitigar esses riscos.
> > > --
> > > Atenciosamente,
> > > Luiz Carlos Proenca Gil
> >
>

Re: OFF-TOPIC - cyberseguranca

[luigui]

Bom dia Vitor,

nao sei se classificaria completamente como OFF-TOPIC

Visto que configuracoes em nossas distros Debian poderao oportunamente 
serem criadas sobre programas que venham a auxiliar no reconhecimento de 
chamadas.


Nao estendendo, mas ja sao criadas antenas domesticas por agressores que 
conseguem contornar os protocolos de comunicacao e seguranca das 
operadoras estabelecendo conexoes mal intencionadas.


Mas presumo que razao possa lhe assistir.

Grato pelo retorno.


On 12/06/2024 07:41, Vitor Hugo wrote:

Bom dia,

Isto é um OFF-TOPIC.

Desconheço esse tipo de ataque, mas teoricamente se para isto 
funcionar deveria ser feito por uma chamada pela internet, acredito 
que somente por voz sem internet isso não seja possível.


Porem sei que aqui na lista possuem pessoas muito informadas e 
esclarecidas com conhecimentos técnicos de primeira linha que possam 
lhe ajudar mais.



Em 11/06/2024 23:03, luiz gil escreveu:

Boa noite aos amigos!
Peco que retornem alguma experiencia ou mesmo uma ciencia de qualquer 
natureza do abaixo enunciado como, leitura, conversas com experts ou 
afins.

Desculpem pelo topico ser talvez de baixa correlacao desta lista.


E' possível que apenas ao receber uma chamada sem dizer uma palavra 
ao agressor, você possa ter seu telefone infectado. Esse tipo de 
ataque é conhecido como ataque de "chamada perdida" ou "chamada 
silenciosa". Nesse cenário, os hackers exploram vulnerabilidades nos 
sistemas de comunicação dos dispositivos para enviar uma chamada 
aparentemente inofensiva, mas que na verdade contém códigos maliciosos.


Quando você atende a chamada, mesmo sem falar nada, os códigos 
maliciosos podem ser executados automaticamente no seu dispositivo, 
explorando alguma vulnerabilidade do sistema operacional ou de um 
aplicativo. Esses códigos podem instalar malware no seu telefone, 
roubar informações pessoais, controlar remotamente o dispositivo, 
entre outras ações prejudiciais.


Portanto, é importante ter em mente que, mesmo sem interagir 
verbalmente com o agressor durante uma chamada, seu telefone ainda 
pode estar em risco se houver uma exploração de vulnerabilidade 
através dessa chamada. Manter o software do seu dispositivo 
atualizado, evitar atender chamadas de números desconhecidos e usar 
aplicativos de segurança confiáveis podem ajudar a mitigar esses riscos.


--
Atenciosamente,
Luiz Carlos Proenca Gil
null

Re: OFF-TOPIC - cyberseguranca

[Vitor Hugo]

Bom dia,

Isto é um OFF-TOPIC.

Desconheço esse tipo de ataque, mas teoricamente se para isto funcionar 
deveria ser feito por uma chamada pela internet, acredito que somente 
por voz sem internet isso não seja possível.


Porem sei que aqui na lista possuem pessoas muito informadas e 
esclarecidas com conhecimentos técnicos de primeira linha que possam lhe 
ajudar mais.



Em 11/06/2024 23:03, luiz gil escreveu:

Boa noite aos amigos!
Peco que retornem alguma experiencia ou mesmo uma ciencia de qualquer 
natureza do abaixo enunciado como, leitura, conversas com experts ou 
afins.

Desculpem pelo topico ser talvez de baixa correlacao desta lista.


E' possível que apenas ao receber uma chamada sem dizer uma palavra ao 
agressor, você possa ter seu telefone infectado. Esse tipo de ataque é 
conhecido como ataque de "chamada perdida" ou "chamada silenciosa". 
Nesse cenário, os hackers exploram vulnerabilidades nos sistemas de 
comunicação dos dispositivos para enviar uma chamada aparentemente 
inofensiva, mas que na verdade contém códigos maliciosos.


Quando você atende a chamada, mesmo sem falar nada, os códigos 
maliciosos podem ser executados automaticamente no seu dispositivo, 
explorando alguma vulnerabilidade do sistema operacional ou de um 
aplicativo. Esses códigos podem instalar malware no seu telefone, 
roubar informações pessoais, controlar remotamente o dispositivo, 
entre outras ações prejudiciais.


Portanto, é importante ter em mente que, mesmo sem interagir 
verbalmente com o agressor durante uma chamada, seu telefone ainda 
pode estar em risco se houver uma exploração de vulnerabilidade 
através dessa chamada. Manter o software do seu dispositivo 
atualizado, evitar atender chamadas de números desconhecidos e usar 
aplicativos de segurança confiáveis podem ajudar a mitigar esses riscos.


--
Atenciosamente,
Luiz Carlos Proenca Gil

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Leandro Cunha]

Olá,

Em sáb., 25 de mai. de 2024, 12:16, Atenágoras Silva 
escreveu:

> Talvez seja o caso de levar esta questão à mídia independente, tipo "The
> Intercept".
> As empresas de telefonia não fazem nada porque, talvez, as medidas simples
> para impedir que isto aconteça seja mais caro do que deixar acontecer. A
> Agência reguladora é leniente, e a mídia hegemônica tem as teles como
> principais anunciantes (a Globo, inclusive, é parceira da Claro em alguns
> negócios).
> O Jornalismo de "The Intercept" é investigativo, relevante, e às vezes,
> "fura a bolha", porque, dependendo da matéria e da seriedade, a grande
> mídia é obrigada a repercutir, ou fazer a sua própria investigação.
>

A Globo tem parceria com a Claro por conta que a América Móvil que é
proprietária da Claro, Embratel e da Embratel Star One é dona de vários
satélites que são utilizados para fazer transmissão para antenas
parabólicas. Não somente ela, várias emissoras de TV dependem desta empresa
que era da Embratel antigamente e são utilizados estes satélites até o dia
de hoje neste momento pra milhares de brasileiros.

https://www.embratel.com.br/satelites

Mas este problema é complicado, o jeito seria apelar pra dar repercussão e
parar na justiça. Isso talvez força a ANATEL e as operadoras pra fazerem
algo.

Att,

Leandro

>

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Atenágoras Silva]

Talvez seja o caso de levar esta questão à mídia independente, tipo "The
Intercept".
As empresas de telefonia não fazem nada porque, talvez, as medidas simples
para impedir que isto aconteça seja mais caro do que deixar acontecer. A
Agência reguladora é leniente, e a mídia hegemônica tem as teles como
principais anunciantes (a Globo, inclusive, é parceira da Claro em alguns
negócios).
O Jornalismo de "The Intercept" é investigativo, relevante, e às vezes,
"fura a bolha", porque, dependendo da matéria e da seriedade, a grande
mídia é obrigada a repercutir, ou fazer a sua própria investigação.

Em sex., 24 de mai. de 2024 às 16:47, Leandro Cunha <
leandrocunha...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 3:50 PM Paulo Correia  wrote:
> >
> > Nem eu sei quantas operadoras e nvmo existem.
> > Você acredita que ir no Procon e falar que quero abrir contra todas as
> operadoras vai resultar em algo?
> > No mínimo o Procon vai rir da minha cara.
> > A ANATEL é inerte a isso e só fala pra você cadastrar o seu número no
> naomeperturbe.com.br o que é ineficaz.
> > Não existe processo genérico, nem abertura de procon genérica. Isso é
> que complica muito.
> > Se você quiser tentar ir no Procon ou Anatel fique à vontade.
> > Eu cansei!
> > Só estou levando conhecimento a público. Se passar na TV quem sabe as
> operadoras se mechem.
> >
> > 
> > De: Leandro Cunha 
> > Enviado: sexta-feira, maio 24, 2024 2:22:35 PM
> > Para: debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org <
> debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org>
> > Assunto: Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha
> >
> > Olá,
> >
> > On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 8:38 AM Paulo Correia 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por
> qualquer número.
> > > Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim
> impedir que isso ocorra.
> > > Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar
> sem telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.
> > >
> > > Att,
> > > Paulo Correia
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Ok, discutir aqui e se for algo bem grave que envolve operadoras, você
> > teria que entrar em contato com as prestadoras e se não for resolvido
> > abrir uma reclamação na ANATEL. Dependendo da resposta, até processos
> > judiciais visando aplicar a legislação vigente e não esquecer de
> > contratar um advogado.
> > Estou vendo que estamos tendo número de banco que está em posse de
> > terceiros e bancos grandes com estes problemas. Nos quais deveriam
> > fazer algo e não fazem.
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Leandro Cunha
> >
> >
>
> São eles os responsáveis por regularizar e supervisionar o serviço das
> operadoras (ANATEL) e PROCON com defesa ao consumidor e quem deveria
> fazer isso é quem está ficando sem os números de telefone que são os
> bancos. O Nubank ficou sem o 4020-0185 que está sendo usado para
> aplicar golpes e tiveram outros bancos com este problema.
>
>
> https://comunidade.nubank.com.br/t/central-fake-de-atendimento-ao-cliente-4020-0185/543753
>
> Nubank ao ser questionado sobre isso, apenas citou para entrar em
> contato com 0800 591 2117 ao invés desse número.
> --
> Cheers,
> Leandro Cunha
>
>

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Leandro Cunha]

On Fri, May 24, 2024 at 3:50 PM Paulo Correia  wrote:
>
> Nem eu sei quantas operadoras e nvmo existem.
> Você acredita que ir no Procon e falar que quero abrir contra todas as 
> operadoras vai resultar em algo?
> No mínimo o Procon vai rir da minha cara.
> A ANATEL é inerte a isso e só fala pra você cadastrar o seu número no 
> naomeperturbe.com.br o que é ineficaz.
> Não existe processo genérico, nem abertura de procon genérica. Isso é que 
> complica muito.
> Se você quiser tentar ir no Procon ou Anatel fique à vontade.
> Eu cansei!
> Só estou levando conhecimento a público. Se passar na TV quem sabe as 
> operadoras se mechem.
>
> 
> De: Leandro Cunha 
> Enviado: sexta-feira, maio 24, 2024 2:22:35 PM
> Para: debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org 
> 
> Assunto: Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha
>
> Olá,
>
> On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 8:38 AM Paulo Correia  wrote:
> >
> >
> > As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por qualquer 
> > número.
> > Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim 
> > impedir que isso ocorra.
> > Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar sem 
> > telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.
> >
> > Att,
> > Paulo Correia
> >
> >
>
> Ok, discutir aqui e se for algo bem grave que envolve operadoras, você
> teria que entrar em contato com as prestadoras e se não for resolvido
> abrir uma reclamação na ANATEL. Dependendo da resposta, até processos
> judiciais visando aplicar a legislação vigente e não esquecer de
> contratar um advogado.
> Estou vendo que estamos tendo número de banco que está em posse de
> terceiros e bancos grandes com estes problemas. Nos quais deveriam
> fazer algo e não fazem.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Leandro Cunha
>
>

São eles os responsáveis por regularizar e supervisionar o serviço das
operadoras (ANATEL) e PROCON com defesa ao consumidor e quem deveria
fazer isso é quem está ficando sem os números de telefone que são os
bancos. O Nubank ficou sem o 4020-0185 que está sendo usado para
aplicar golpes e tiveram outros bancos com este problema.

https://comunidade.nubank.com.br/t/central-fake-de-atendimento-ao-cliente-4020-0185/543753

Nubank ao ser questionado sobre isso, apenas citou para entrar em
contato com 0800 591 2117 ao invés desse número.
-- 
Cheers,
Leandro Cunha

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Paulo Correia]

Nem eu sei quantas operadoras e nvmo existem.
Você acredita que ir no Procon e falar que quero abrir contra todas as 
operadoras vai resultar em algo?
No mínimo o Procon vai rir da minha cara.
A ANATEL é inerte a isso e só fala pra você cadastrar o seu número no 
naomeperturbe.com.br o que é ineficaz.
Não existe processo genérico, nem abertura de procon genérica. Isso é que 
complica muito.
Se você quiser tentar ir no Procon ou Anatel fique à vontade.
Eu cansei!
Só estou levando conhecimento a público. Se passar na TV quem sabe as 
operadoras se mechem.


De: Leandro Cunha 
Enviado: sexta-feira, maio 24, 2024 2:22:35 PM
Para: debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org 

Assunto: Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

Olá,

On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 8:38 AM Paulo Correia  wrote:
>
>
> As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por qualquer 
> número.
> Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim impedir 
> que isso ocorra.
> Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar sem 
> telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.
>
> Att,
> Paulo Correia
>
>

Ok, discutir aqui e se for algo bem grave que envolve operadoras, você
teria que entrar em contato com as prestadoras e se não for resolvido
abrir uma reclamação na ANATEL. Dependendo da resposta, até processos
judiciais visando aplicar a legislação vigente e não esquecer de
contratar um advogado.
Estou vendo que estamos tendo número de banco que está em posse de
terceiros e bancos grandes com estes problemas. Nos quais deveriam
fazer algo e não fazem.

--
Cheers,
Leandro Cunha

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[luigui]

Exato Leandro,

os bancos se limitam a dizer que devemos seguir a cartilha sobre seguranca.

Ocorre que ferramentas sao desenvolvidas crescentemente para 
recolhimento de dados e posterior ataques.


Sem atribuicoes de culpa por falta de investimento em cyberseguranca, 
redes de comunicacoes caminham para um ambiente de bagunca.


Att

On 24/05/2024 14:21, Leandro Cunha wrote:

Olá,

On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 8:38 AM Paulo Correia  wrote:


As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por qualquer número.
Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim impedir 
que isso ocorra.
Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar sem 
telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.

Att,
Paulo Correia



Ok, discutir aqui e se for algo bem grave que envolve operadoras, você
teria que entrar em contato com as prestadoras e se não for resolvido
abrir uma reclamação na ANATEL. Dependendo da resposta, até processos
judiciais visando aplicar a legislação vigente e não esquecer de
contratar um advogado.
Estou vendo que estamos tendo número de banco que está em posse de
terceiros e bancos grandes com estes problemas. Nos quais deveriam
fazer algo e não fazem.

--
Cheers,
Leandro Cunha
null

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Paulo Correia]

Apesar de ir no STJ ser algo muito fora da casinha.
E até concordar que eles tem outros casos mais urgentes a tratar.
Mas, recomendo sim. No mínimo judiciário.
Aprendi que um processo faz com que o governo ande.

Mas, talvez antes levar esse caso a mídia fosse interessante, quem sabe todos 
sabendo as operadoras se mechem.

From: luigui 
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 12:46:34 PM
To: Paulo Correia ; debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org 

Subject: Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha


No meu caso, recebo em media 4 a 5 ligacoes diarias de entidades que se dizem 
passar por bancos.

Vc citou o principal, Anatel, orgao que precisa ser reestruturado e 
coresponsabilizado juntamente com tais operadoras.

Tal inercia serve apenas para fomentar a criminalidade e desordem nas redes de 
comunicacoes.

Talvez uma peticao junto ao STJ ? Qual o orgao acima da agencia que pode 
pressiona-la?


On 24/05/2024 10:45, Paulo Correia wrote:
Então, vou dizer como descobri.
Estou recebendo ligações de vários números. Alguns tem ZAP e pergunto pra 
pessoa se ela me ligou.
Ela até mostra print do histórico de chamadas.
Aí acabei descobrindo que as centrais telefônicas podem brincar (se passar por 
qualquer número) e que as operadoras não estão fazendo nada.
E a ANATEL muito menos.
Aliás tem serviço (API) que faz isso de ligar pras pessoas.
Só ver a matéria abaixo:

https://www.uol.com.br/tilt/noticias/redacao/2018/09/18/como-instalar-o-robo-telefonista-que-liga-sem-parar-para-empresas.htm

Github

https://github.com/haskellcamargo/gemidao-do-zap

Até vi que o totalvoice.com.br está fora do ar, mas vai saber quantos outros 
"n" serviços assim não existem.

Sei que o foco da lista é Debian, mas isso afeta a todos.

Pois podem fazer ligações com o seu número sem usar seu celular/fixo.
E com isso aplicar golpe.

Não sou jornalista, não tô fazendo propaganda de nada. Não é fake news. Tenho 
conversa no ZAP como evidência.
Nem quero "ganhar" nada com isso.
Só quero que as operadoras tenham mais segurança na rede.
E que só possa ser possível ligar de um terminal (fixo ou móvel).
Ou seja só pode ligar a partir de um número que você tem. Não de um que você 
inventou. Ex: 98765-4321 com qq DDD

From: luigui <mailto:lucap...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 9:09:39 AM
To: 
debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org<mailto:debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org>
 
<mailto:debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha


Gostaria de saber melhor sobre esse assunto.

Acho que o zelo da credibilidade da lista compete a todos.

Mesmo que seja algo noticioso, e' valido discutirmos.


On 23/05/2024 12:55, Atenágoras Silva wrote:
Pode explicar melhor o problema?

Em qui., 23 de mai. de 2024 às 08:38, Paulo Correia 
mailto:psc...@hotmail.com>> escreveu:

As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por qualquer número.
Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim impedir 
que isso ocorra.
Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar sem 
telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.

Att,
Paulo Correia

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Paulo Correia]

Onde está escrito "brincar" leia-se "binar". Corretor Maledeto

Obter o Outlook para Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: Paulo Correia 
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 10:45:54 AM
To: luigui ; debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org 

Subject: Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

Então, vou dizer como descobri.
Estou recebendo ligações de vários números. Alguns tem ZAP e pergunto pra 
pessoa se ela me ligou.
Ela até mostra print do histórico de chamadas.
Aí acabei descobrindo que as centrais telefônicas podem brincar (se passar por 
qualquer número) e que as operadoras não estão fazendo nada.
E a ANATEL muito menos.
Aliás tem serviço (API) que faz isso de ligar pras pessoas.
Só ver a matéria abaixo:

https://www.uol.com.br/tilt/noticias/redacao/2018/09/18/como-instalar-o-robo-telefonista-que-liga-sem-parar-para-empresas.htm

Github

https://github.com/haskellcamargo/gemidao-do-zap

Até vi que o totalvoice.com.br está fora do ar, mas vai saber quantos outros 
"n" serviços assim não existem.

Sei que o foco da lista é Debian, mas isso afeta a todos.

Pois podem fazer ligações com o seu número sem usar seu celular/fixo.
E com isso aplicar golpe.

Não sou jornalista, não tô fazendo propaganda de nada. Não é fake news. Tenho 
conversa no ZAP como evidência.
Nem quero "ganhar" nada com isso.
Só quero que as operadoras tenham mais segurança na rede.
E que só possa ser possível ligar de um terminal (fixo ou móvel).
Ou seja só pode ligar a partir de um número que você tem. Não de um que você 
inventou. Ex: 98765-4321 com qq DDD

From: luigui 
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 9:09:39 AM
To: debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org 

Subject: Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha


Gostaria de saber melhor sobre esse assunto.

Acho que o zelo da credibilidade da lista compete a todos.

Mesmo que seja algo noticioso, e' valido discutirmos.


On 23/05/2024 12:55, Atenágoras Silva wrote:
Pode explicar melhor o problema?

Em qui., 23 de mai. de 2024 às 08:38, Paulo Correia 
mailto:psc...@hotmail.com>> escreveu:

As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por qualquer número.
Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim impedir 
que isso ocorra.
Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar sem 
telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.

Att,
Paulo Correia

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Leandro Cunha]

Olá,

On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 8:38 AM Paulo Correia  wrote:
>
>
> As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por qualquer 
> número.
> Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim impedir 
> que isso ocorra.
> Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar sem 
> telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.
>
> Att,
> Paulo Correia
>
>

Ok, discutir aqui e se for algo bem grave que envolve operadoras, você
teria que entrar em contato com as prestadoras e se não for resolvido
abrir uma reclamação na ANATEL. Dependendo da resposta, até processos
judiciais visando aplicar a legislação vigente e não esquecer de
contratar um advogado.
Estou vendo que estamos tendo número de banco que está em posse de
terceiros e bancos grandes com estes problemas. Nos quais deveriam
fazer algo e não fazem.

--
Cheers,
Leandro Cunha

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[luigui]

No meu caso, recebo em media 4 a 5 ligacoes diarias de entidades que se 
dizem passar por bancos.


Vc citou o principal, Anatel, orgao que precisa ser reestruturado e 
coresponsabilizado juntamente com tais operadoras.


Tal inercia serve apenas para fomentar a criminalidade e desordem nas 
redes de comunicacoes.


Talvez uma peticao junto ao STJ ? Qual o orgao acima da agencia que pode 
pressiona-la?



On 24/05/2024 10:45, Paulo Correia wrote:

Então, vou dizer como descobri.
Estou recebendo ligações de vários números. Alguns tem ZAP e pergunto 
pra pessoa se ela me ligou.

Ela até mostra print do histórico de chamadas.
Aí acabei descobrindo que as centrais telefônicas podem brincar (se 
passar por qualquer número) e que as operadoras não estão fazendo nada.

E a ANATEL muito menos.
Aliás tem serviço (API) que faz isso de ligar pras pessoas.
Só ver a matéria abaixo:

https://www.uol.com.br/tilt/noticias/redacao/2018/09/18/como-instalar-o-robo-telefonista-que-liga-sem-parar-para-empresas.htm

Github

https://github.com/haskellcamargo/gemidao-do-zap

Até vi que o totalvoice.com.br está fora do ar, mas vai saber quantos 
outros "n" serviços assim não existem.


Sei que o foco da lista é Debian, mas isso afeta a todos.

Pois podem fazer ligações com o seu número sem usar seu celular/fixo.
E com isso aplicar golpe.

Não sou jornalista, não tô fazendo propaganda de nada. Não é fake 
news. Tenho conversa no ZAP como evidência.

Nem quero "ganhar" nada com isso.
Só quero que as operadoras tenham mais segurança na rede.
E que só possa ser possível ligar de um terminal (fixo ou móvel).
Ou seja só pode ligar a partir de um número que você tem. Não de um 
que você inventou. Ex: 98765-4321 com qq DDD


*From:* luigui 
*Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2024 9:09:39 AM
*To:* debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org 


*Subject:* Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

Gostaria de saber melhor sobre esse assunto.

Acho que o zelo da credibilidade da lista compete a todos.

Mesmo que seja algo noticioso, e' valido discutirmos.


On 23/05/2024 12:55, Atenágoras Silva wrote:

Pode explicar melhor o problema?

Em qui., 23 de mai. de 2024 às 08:38, Paulo Correia 
mailto:psc...@hotmail.com>> escreveu:



As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por
qualquer número.
Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede,
assim impedir que isso ocorra.
Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem
utilizar sem telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.

Att,
Paulo Correia

null

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Paulo Correia]

Então, vou dizer como descobri.
Estou recebendo ligações de vários números. Alguns tem ZAP e pergunto pra 
pessoa se ela me ligou.
Ela até mostra print do histórico de chamadas.
Aí acabei descobrindo que as centrais telefônicas podem brincar (se passar por 
qualquer número) e que as operadoras não estão fazendo nada.
E a ANATEL muito menos.
Aliás tem serviço (API) que faz isso de ligar pras pessoas.
Só ver a matéria abaixo:

https://www.uol.com.br/tilt/noticias/redacao/2018/09/18/como-instalar-o-robo-telefonista-que-liga-sem-parar-para-empresas.htm

Github

https://github.com/haskellcamargo/gemidao-do-zap

Até vi que o totalvoice.com.br está fora do ar, mas vai saber quantos outros 
"n" serviços assim não existem.

Sei que o foco da lista é Debian, mas isso afeta a todos.

Pois podem fazer ligações com o seu número sem usar seu celular/fixo.
E com isso aplicar golpe.

Não sou jornalista, não tô fazendo propaganda de nada. Não é fake news. Tenho 
conversa no ZAP como evidência.
Nem quero "ganhar" nada com isso.
Só quero que as operadoras tenham mais segurança na rede.
E que só possa ser possível ligar de um terminal (fixo ou móvel).
Ou seja só pode ligar a partir de um número que você tem. Não de um que você 
inventou. Ex: 98765-4321 com qq DDD

From: luigui 
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2024 9:09:39 AM
To: debian-user-portuguese@lists.debian.org 

Subject: Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha


Gostaria de saber melhor sobre esse assunto.

Acho que o zelo da credibilidade da lista compete a todos.

Mesmo que seja algo noticioso, e' valido discutirmos.


On 23/05/2024 12:55, Atenágoras Silva wrote:
Pode explicar melhor o problema?

Em qui., 23 de mai. de 2024 às 08:38, Paulo Correia 
mailto:psc...@hotmail.com>> escreveu:

As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por qualquer número.
Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim impedir 
que isso ocorra.
Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar sem 
telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.

Att,
Paulo Correia

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[luigui]

Gostaria de saber melhor sobre esse assunto.

Acho que o zelo da credibilidade da lista compete a todos.

Mesmo que seja algo noticioso, e' valido discutirmos.


On 23/05/2024 12:55, Atenágoras Silva wrote:

Pode explicar melhor o problema?

Em qui., 23 de mai. de 2024 às 08:38, Paulo Correia 
 escreveu:



As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por
qualquer número.
Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede,
assim impedir que isso ocorra.
Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem
utilizar sem telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.

Att,
Paulo Correia

null

Re: Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Atenágoras Silva]

Pode explicar melhor o problema?

Em qui., 23 de mai. de 2024 às 08:38, Paulo Correia 
escreveu:

>
> As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por qualquer
> número.
> Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim
> impedir que isso ocorra.
> Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar sem
> telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.
>
> Att,
> Paulo Correia
>
>
>

Off Topic - Rede das Operadoras sem senha

[Paulo Correia]

As centrais telefônicas, estão fazendo ligações se passando por qualquer número.
Todas as operadoras tem que se unir para colocar senha na Rede, assim impedir 
que isso ocorra.
Ou seja podem utilizar o seu número para fazer chamada sem utilizar sem 
telefone/celular e com isso aplicar golpes.

Att,
Paulo Correia

Re: [off topic] High Sierra, was: Cindex

[David Wright]

On Sun 12 May 2024 at 21:52:05 (+0100), Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Sun, 12 May 2024 22:27:58 +0200 "Thomas Schmitt" wrote:
> 
> >Hah ! Do they think that ISO 9660 is dead enough so they can highjack
> >its birth name ?
> 
> Happens all the time (just saying - not condoning);
> 
> Solid State Drive - referring to HDs without moving parts.
> 
> BITD, Solid State referred to equipment that operates using transistors,
> not valves.  By that definition, *all* HDs are Solid State.

High Sierra is a proper noun, not just a lofty mountain range.
You'd normally only capitalise solid state drive in a heading,
or when defining SSD.

Of course, the company has history; think Apple Corps,
McIntosh Laboratory, etc.

Cheers,
David.

Re: [off topic] High Sierra, was: Cindex

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 12 May 2024 22:27:58 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt"  wrote:

Hello Thomas,

>Hah ! Do they think that ISO 9660 is dead enough so they can highjack
>its birth name ?

Happens all the time (just saying - not condoning);

Solid State Drive - referring to HDs without moving parts.

BITD, Solid State referred to equipment that operates using transistors,
not valves.  By that definition, *all* HDs are Solid State.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
I must be hallucinating, watching angels celebrating
There Must Be An Angel (Playing With My Heart) - Eurythmics


pgpYcSjDZvFzD.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

[off topic] High Sierra, was: Cindex

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Brad Rogers quoted:
> macOS 10.13 (High Sierra)

Hah ! Do they think that ISO 9660 is dead enough so they can highjack
its birth name ?

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9660
  "ISO 9660 traces its roots to the High Sierra Format, [...]
   In November 1985, representatives of computer hardware manufacturers
   gathered at the High Sierra Hotel and Casino [...] in Stateline, Nevada.
   This group became known as the High Sierra Group (HSG).
   Present at the meeting were representatives from Apple Computer [...]"

A company now run by cultureless bleeps suffering from historical amnesia.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

off-topic spamassassin issue

[Byunghee HWANG]

Hellow Debian Hackers,

This email[0].

The submitter use reportbug(1) program of Debian.
And it seems that submitter use `reportbug.debian.org' as relay SMTP.
And the contents are good i think.

By the way, SpamAssassin did mark as SPAM (X-Spam-Flag: YES).

What do you guys think about this issue?

At least i think that email[0] should not be treated as SPAM. Really i
want to talk with each others here Debian users, thanks!

[0] Take from my Mailbox (With debian-bugs-dist mailing) 
https://gitlab.com/soyeomul/Gnus/-/raw/d563c3f3865ae6726d7094734102ff0ced11fc14/stuff/170832481599.2657.12127301583661701514.reportbug@debian


Sincerely, Byunghee from South Korea


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

[outrageously off-topic] All those Thomas [was: cronitor.io for monitoring cron jobs]

[tomas]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 05:08:04PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 06:49:00PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 05:31:45PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > and we're all twins [1] ;-)
> > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_(name)
> > > 
> > > But paradoxly less than half of all twins bear this very cool name.
> > 
> > Which is a pity, ain't it ;-)
> > 
> > Imagine the clerk at the civil registration office:
> > 
> >  Q: "But... but both your kids are called Thomas?"
> >  A: "Well, yes. They are twins!"
> > 
> 
> Everyone's called Thomas? I doubt it ... 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubting_Thomas

;-)

> [In Wales, Thomas is quite a common family name - there are probably *lots*
> of sets of twins surnamed Thomas :) ]

In Germany, this isn't unheard of either. Interestingly, in Spain I haven't
met any. Go figure.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

SOLUCIONADO Re: OFF TOPIC - openvpn en Debian 12 error

[Marcelo Eduardo Giordano]

Gracias estimado. Me funcionó perfecto.

Pero tuve que hacer algunas cosas que yo no sabía:

primero modifiqué el archivo ovpn directamente y no el archivo que 
estaba alojado


/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/vpn.nmconnection

Saludos

Re: OFF TOPIC - openvpn en Debian 12 error

[Camaleón]

El 2023-06-24 a las 18:09 -0300, Marcelo Eduardo Giordano escribió:

> me sigue saliendo el mismo mensaje de error.

Vaya :-?

¿Te conectas mediante consola o algún componente gráfico?

> Alguna otra alternativa?

Revisa este otro hilo, el error parece bastante común y la solución 
rápida pasa por lo mismo (bajar los requisitos de seguridad), pero 
según se desprende de los que comentan en el hilo, dependiendo de cómo 
te conectes (consola o cliente gráfico) tendrás que configurar el 
parámetro en un archivo o en otro:

Lab Access Openvpn certificate verify failed
https://forum.hackthebox.com/t/lab-access-openvpn-certificate-verify-failed/

Prueba a añadirlo en el archivo que indican y a conectar mediante 
consola, a ver qué sucede.

> Gracias por tan importante ayuda
> 
> 
> openvpn megiordano.ovpn
> 2023-06-24 18:04:56 WARNING: Compression for receiving enabled. Compression
> has been used in the past to break encryption. Sent packets are not
> compressed unless "allow-compression yes" is also set.
> 2023-06-24 18:04:56 Note: --cipher is not set. OpenVPN versions before 2.5
> defaulted to BF-CBC as fallback when cipher negotiation failed in this case.
> If you need this fallback please add '--data-ciphers-fallback BF-CBC' to
> your config
> uration and/or add BF-CBC to --data-ciphers.
> 2023-06-24 18:04:56 OpenVPN 2.6.3 x86_64-pc-linux-gnu [SSL (OpenSSL)] [LZO]
> [LZ4] [EPOLL] [PKCS11] [MH/PKTINFO] [AEAD] [DCO]
> 2023-06-24 18:04:56 library versions: OpenSSL 3.0.9 30 May 2023, LZO 2.10
> 2023-06-24 18:04:56 DCO version: N/A
> 2023-06-24 18:04:56 WARNING: No server certificate verification method has
> been enabled.  See http://openvpn.net/howto.html#mitm for more info.
> Enter Private Key Password: 
> 2023-06-24 18:05:58 WARNING: this configuration may cache passwords in
> memory -- use the auth-nocache option to prevent this
> 2023-06-24 18:05:58 TCP/UDP: Preserving recently used remote address:
> [AF_INET]181.13.51.141:1194
> 2023-06-24 18:05:58 UDPv4 link local: (not bound)
> 2023-06-24 18:05:58 UDPv4 link remote: [AF_INET]181.13.51.141:1194
> 2023-06-24 18:05:58 VERIFY ERROR: depth=0, error=CA signature digest
> algorithm too weak: C=AR, ST=MZ, L=Mendoza, O=DIC, CN=server,
> emailAddress=ry...@mendoza.gov.ar, serial=465
> 2023-06-24 18:05:58 OpenSSL: error:0A86:SSL routines::certificate verify
> failed
> 2023-06-24 18:05:58 TLS_ERROR: BIO read tls_read_plaintext error
> 2023-06-24 18:05:58 TLS Error: TLS object -> incoming plaintext read error
> 2023-06-24 18:05:58 TLS Error: TLS handshake failed

Saludos, 

-- 
Camaleón 

Re: OFF TOPIC - openvpn en Debian 12 error

[Camaleón]

El 2023-06-23 a las 15:13 -0300, Marcelo Eduardo Giordano escribió:

> Le agregué
> 
> |tls-cipher=DEFAULT:@SECLEVEL=0|
> 
> 
> al archivo /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/vpn.nmconnection
> 
> que estaba vacio y no cambió nada.
> 
> alguna otra alternativa?

Prueba a ver si tras reiniciar el sistema te funciona. 

Si sigue igual, revisa los registros nuevamente y mándalos a la lista, 
a ver si hay algún cambio. 

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón 

Re: OFF TOPIC - openvpn en Debian 12 error

[Marcelo Eduardo Giordano]

Le agregué

|tls-cipher=DEFAULT:@SECLEVEL=0|


al archivo /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections/vpn.nmconnection

que estaba vacio y no cambió nada.

alguna otra alternativa?

Re: OFF TOPIC - openvpn en Debian 12 error

[Camaleón]

El 2023-06-21 a las 16:23 -0300, Marcelo Eduardo Giordano escribió:

> Amigos:
> 
> Usaba debian 11 con una VPN sin ningún problema. Realizo una instalación
> limpia de Debian 12 y ahora me sale esto
> 
> 2023-06-21 09:56:28 WARNING: Compression for receiving enabled. Compression
> has been used in the past to break encryption. Sent packets are not
> compressed unless "allow-compression yes" is also set.
> 2023-06-21 09:56:28 Note: --cipher is not set. OpenVPN versions before 2.5
> defaulted to BF-CBC as fallback when cipher negotiation failed in this case.
> If you need this fallback please add '--data-ciphers-fallback BF-CBC' to
> your config
> uration and/or add BF-CBC to --data-ciphers.
> 2023-06-21 09:56:28 OpenVPN 2.6.3 x86_64-pc-linux-gnu [SSL (OpenSSL)] [LZO]
> [LZ4] [EPOLL] [PKCS11] [MH/PKTINFO] [AEAD] [DCO]
> 2023-06-21 09:56:28 library versions: OpenSSL 3.0.9 30 May 2023, LZO 2.10
> 2023-06-21 09:56:28 DCO version: N/A
> 2023-06-21 09:56:28 WARNING: No server certificate verification method has
> been enabled.  See http://openvpn.net/howto.html#mitm for more info.
> Enter Private Key Password: 
> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 WARNING: this configuration may cache passwords in
> memory -- use the auth-nocache option to prevent this
> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 TCP/UDP: Preserving recently used remote address:
> [AF_INET]xx
> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 UDPv4 link local: (not bound)
> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 UDPv4 link remote: [AF_INET] xx

Estos no parecen mensajes de error sino de notificación.

Parece que ha habido algunos cambios desde la versión 2.5, y te avisa 
por si quieres revisar la configuración actual.

> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 VERIFY ERROR: depth=0, error=CA signature digest
> algorithm too weak: C=AR, ST=MZ, L=Mendoza, O=DIC, CN=server,
> emailAddress=, serial=465

Quito la dirección IP y la dirección de correo electrónico por 
privacidad y seguridad. Gente, cuidado con lo que enviáis a la lista.

> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 OpenSSL: error:0A86:SSL routines::certificate verify
> failed
> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 TLS_ERROR: BIO read tls_read_plaintext error
> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 TLS Error: TLS object -> incoming plaintext read error
> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 TLS Error: TLS handshake failed
> 2023-06-21 09:56:33 SIGUSR1[soft,tls-error] received, process restarting
> ^C2023-06-21 09:56:34 SIGINT[hard,init_instance] received, process exiting
> 
> Alguna idea?

Estos mensajes con el certificado sí parecen de error.

A ver... Google tiene varios enlaces que hablan de este problema que 
te aparece en la nueva versión de OpenVPN.

Este creo que te podrá servir:

[SOLVED] OpenVPN - How to allow too weak certificate?
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=281136

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón 

OFF TOPIC - openvpn en Debian 12 error

[Marcelo Eduardo Giordano]

Amigos:

Usaba debian 11 con una VPN sin ningún problema. Realizo una instalación 
limpia de Debian 12 y ahora me sale esto


2023-06-21 09:56:28 WARNING: Compression for receiving enabled. 
Compression has been used in the past to break encryption. Sent packets 
are not compressed unless "allow-compression yes" is also set.
2023-06-21 09:56:28 Note: --cipher is not set. OpenVPN versions before 
2.5 defaulted to BF-CBC as fallback when cipher negotiation failed in 
this case. If you need this fallback please add '--data-ciphers-fallback 
BF-CBC' to your config

uration and/or add BF-CBC to --data-ciphers.
2023-06-21 09:56:28 OpenVPN 2.6.3 x86_64-pc-linux-gnu [SSL (OpenSSL)] 
[LZO] [LZ4] [EPOLL] [PKCS11] [MH/PKTINFO] [AEAD] [DCO]

2023-06-21 09:56:28 library versions: OpenSSL 3.0.9 30 May 2023, LZO 2.10
2023-06-21 09:56:28 DCO version: N/A
2023-06-21 09:56:28 WARNING: No server certificate verification method 
has been enabled.  See http://openvpn.net/howto.html#mitm for more info.

Enter Private Key Password: 
2023-06-21 09:56:33 WARNING: this configuration may cache passwords in 
memory -- use the auth-nocache option to prevent this
2023-06-21 09:56:33 TCP/UDP: Preserving recently used remote address: 
[AF_INET]181.13.51.141:1194

2023-06-21 09:56:33 UDPv4 link local: (not bound)
2023-06-21 09:56:33 UDPv4 link remote: [AF_INET]181.13.51.141:1194
2023-06-21 09:56:33 VERIFY ERROR: depth=0, error=CA signature digest 
algorithm too weak: C=AR, ST=MZ, L=Mendoza, O=DIC, CN=server, 
emailAddress=ry...@mendoza.gov.ar, serial=465
2023-06-21 09:56:33 OpenSSL: error:0A86:SSL routines::certificate 
verify failed

2023-06-21 09:56:33 TLS_ERROR: BIO read tls_read_plaintext error
2023-06-21 09:56:33 TLS Error: TLS object -> incoming plaintext read error
2023-06-21 09:56:33 TLS Error: TLS handshake failed
2023-06-21 09:56:33 SIGUSR1[soft,tls-error] received, process restarting
^C2023-06-21 09:56:34 SIGINT[hard,init_instance] received, process exiting

Alguna idea?

Re: off topic, has anyone here built marlin from src?

[gene heskett]

On 12/26/22 08:44, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 08:15:55AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;



Hi Gene :)


debian bullseye, on a i5 machine, uptodate a/o yesterday.
trying to build marlin for a newer board in a 3d printer, static blew the
Robin Nano 1.2 board that drove a two trees sapphire 5 plus.  The blown
board has been replaced with a newer Robin Nano 3.1 board, with TMC2209
motor drivers.

I've had pip3 install platformio but cannot find instructions of how to
start from square one.



If you're installing from pip3 - you are probably on your own. Anything you
install from pip, you generally have to debug by yourself.


Understood, I should go pester the python list then.


I have available, several banana pi m5's if that would be a more suitable
platform. And I build LinuxCNC from fresh git pulls on an rpi4b regularly,
so I'm not a newbie for arm stuff.



Are the banana pi m5's or the Robin Nano _actually_ running Debian?
If they're not, and running Armbian or similar: you're once again on your
own and will need to ask their support channels.


Armbian, which is equ to testing. And like the rpi world, no mailing 
list, only forums. And you can get banned for years asking about a 
realtime kernel.  That is not a foundation approved topic.


So I did my own, first on this planet, including figuring out my own 
installer too. The uncompressed tarball is about 28 megs. Its on my web 
page.



Marlin has switched to an autoconfig of sorts, two methods of building,
platformio, and visual studio.



The Debian wiki is your friend here for Visual Studio.
https://wiki.debian.org/VisualStudioCode


I'd druther stay out of that pigpen. Not near enough lipstick. History 
teaches me well. NT-3.51 had a habit of its late night housekeeping 
deleting 3.51's main .dll. I called Redmond and asked for just that 
library. And got accused of being a pie-rat. So Bill and I agreed to 
disagree nearly 30 years ago. Bills product has improved since, a lot, 
but not enough to interest me.

It's a very popular development environment but it comes from Microsoft -
so once again, you may be on your own. I would strongly suggest using
the simple .deb package rather than snapd or flatpak. It is also
available for arm64 and armhf (probably built for Ubuntu), but, as ever
your mileage may vary.


debs for this do not exist. The Marlin zip from github is around 150 
megs and needs another 50megs or so for config files as it covers at 
least  500 various printers in 5 or 6 basic architectures. There's 
another maker under every juniper bush.


Or whatever they are called in your locale. ;o)>

I do use a couple AppImages, but from what I've read about snap calling 
home scares me. OpenSCAD and digiKam run fine as AppImages yet are many 
versions newer than your repo's offer. The difference in OpenSCAD? The 
current, about 30 day old AppImage is about 100x faster that your repo's
nearly 2 yo version. The repo version of digikam crashes accessing my 
camera, the ApppImage Just Works. I know nothing about flatpack.



One path involves Visual Studio which does not seem to be available for
debian, so it appears the platformio path is the one to follow. But step by
step instructions are pretty slim.

Can anyone help get me started?



See above.

See mine. :0>

Take care and stay well Andrew. I hope we both have a better 2023.


Thank you.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.


And cheers to you - and all best wishes for 2023

Andy Cater


--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: off topic, has anyone here built marlin from src?

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 26.12.2022 18:15, gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;
...
One path involves Visual Studio which does not seem to be available 
for debian, so it appears the platformio path is the one to follow. 
But step by step instructions are pretty slim.


Can anyone help get me started?

I don't have any experience with CNCs or MarlinFW, but from what I've 
read from documentation [1] [2] it should be pretty straight forward.
First things first you need to install VSCode (Visual Studio Code IDE) 
[3]. Which is not available in Debian repos so you have to trust 
Microsoft and add their external repos along with trusted gpg key.
After VSCode installation, you can proceed and install "PlatformIO" 
which is an extension plugin for VSCode. [4]
To do that, basically you need to press "Ctrl+Shift+X" inside VSCode and 
type "PlatformIO" into search bar inside left-side panel and click 
Install button.
After that you will have a ready-to-go toolkit for MarlinFW 
configuration and compilation, and proceed with further steps, as 
described in [4].



[1] https://marlinfw.org/docs/basics/install.html
[2] https://marlinfw.org/docs/configuration/configuration.html
[3] https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/setup/linux
[4] https://marlinfw.org/docs/basics/install_platformio_vscode.html
--
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: off topic, has anyone here built marlin from src?

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 08:15:55AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
> 

Hi Gene :)

> debian bullseye, on a i5 machine, uptodate a/o yesterday.
> trying to build marlin for a newer board in a 3d printer, static blew the
> Robin Nano 1.2 board that drove a two trees sapphire 5 plus.  The blown
> board has been replaced with a newer Robin Nano 3.1 board, with TMC2209
> motor drivers.
> 
> I've had pip3 install platformio but cannot find instructions of how to
> start from square one.
> 

If you're installing from pip3 - you are probably on your own. Anything you
install from pip, you generally have to debug by yourself.

> I have available, several banana pi m5's if that would be a more suitable
> platform. And I build LinuxCNC from fresh git pulls on an rpi4b regularly,
> so I'm not a newbie for arm stuff.
> 

Are the banana pi m5's or the Robin Nano _actually_ running Debian?
If they're not, and running Armbian or similar: you're once again on your
own and will need to ask their support channels.

> Marlin has switched to an autoconfig of sorts, two methods of building,
> platformio, and visual studio.
> 

The Debian wiki is your friend here for Visual Studio. 
https://wiki.debian.org/VisualStudioCode

It's a very popular development environment but it comes from Microsoft -
so once again, you may be on your own. I would strongly suggest using
the simple .deb package rather than snapd or flatpak. It is also
available for arm64 and armhf (probably built for Ubuntu), but, as ever
your mileage may vary.

> One path involves Visual Studio which does not seem to be available for
> debian, so it appears the platformio path is the one to follow. But step by
> step instructions are pretty slim.
> 
> Can anyone help get me started?
> 

See above.

> Thank you.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.

And cheers to you - and all best wishes for 2023

Andy Cater

> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
> 

off topic, has anyone here built marlin from src?

[gene heskett]

Greetings all;

debian bullseye, on a i5 machine, uptodate a/o yesterday.
trying to build marlin for a newer board in a 3d printer, static blew 
the Robin Nano 1.2 board that drove a two trees sapphire 5 plus.  The 
blown board has been replaced with a newer Robin Nano 3.1 board, with 
TMC2209 motor drivers.


This machine is a corexy machine.

I have never tried to build marlin before. Marlin is written in python, 
now python 3.


I've had pip3 install platformio but cannot find instructions of how to 
start from square one.


I have available, several banana pi m5's if that would be a more 
suitable platform. And I build LinuxCNC from fresh git pulls on an rpi4b 
regularly, so I'm not a newbie for arm stuff.


Marlin has switched to an autoconfig of sorts, two methods of building, 
platformio, and visual studio.


One path involves Visual Studio which does not seem to be available for 
debian, so it appears the platformio path is the one to follow. But step 
by step instructions are pretty slim.


Can anyone help get me started?

Thank you.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Off topic - Distribuição de media centraliada / Controle de TVs

[ubuntu]

Olá Maurício

Para gestão de conteúdos e canais, tem a solução Tvheadend.

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 11:29:06 AM WEST Mauricio Neto wrote:
> Amigos da lista bom dia.
> 
> Estou em busca de uma solução para duas questões e como aqui na listas
> temos "sabedores de tudo" recorro a ajuda dos amigos.
> 
> Preciso distribuir vídeos institucionais para diversas TVs instaladas
> remotamente. A ideia é que o ponto onde os equipamentos estejam
> instalados apenas precise de ligar a TV e escolher o "canal" correto
> para que o video seja iniciado a partir de algum servidor central.
> 
> Um super bonus seria poder monitorar e controlar as TVs remotamente.
> 
> Todos os equipamentos de TV são smart com acesso a uma rede local.
> 
> Minha primeira ideia é um servidor de streaming como Plex ou Kodi
> (XBMC), que posso destribuir os vídeos mas ainda não tenho como
> monitorar e controlar os equipamentos remotamente.
> 
> Agradeço a atenção
> 
> Maurício Neto

Off topic - Distribuição de media centraliada / Controle de TVs

[Mauricio Neto]

Amigos da lista bom dia.

Estou em busca de uma solução para duas questões e como aqui na listas 
temos "sabedores de tudo" recorro a ajuda dos amigos.


Preciso distribuir vídeos institucionais para diversas TVs instaladas 
remotamente. A ideia é que o ponto onde os equipamentos estejam 
instalados apenas precise de ligar a TV e escolher o "canal" correto 
para que o video seja iniciado a partir de algum servidor central.


Um super bonus seria poder monitorar e controlar as TVs remotamente.

Todos os equipamentos de TV são smart com acesso a uma rede local.

Minha primeira ideia é um servidor de streaming como Plex ou Kodi 
(XBMC), que posso destribuir os vídeos mas ainda não tenho como 
monitorar e controlar os equipamentos remotamente.


Agradeço a atenção

Maurício Neto

off topic OPORTUNIDADE DE TRABALHO

[Márcio Pedroso]

boa noite, um amigo precisa de alguem para auxiliar em um projeto de um
servidor linux que precisa de configuraçoes quanto a segurança entre
projetos que  vao ser executados nele

segue o email dele é c...@agil.net

-- 
linux user nº 432194

Eu sou livre e você?

Off topic bastante personal. Re: problema con Processing, Java y OpenGL

[Daniel]

Gracias por la atención Camaleón, y disculpas el html :) Ando con mala 
racha, me suelen hostigar mis amigos por "viejo" y "arcaico defensor del 
texto plano", una vez que uso html para poner una negrita me critican!! 
con razón :) La mala racha incluye covid (aunque bien leve por tener 4 
dosis de vacuna) así que me tomaré mi tiempo para probar tus 
recomendaciones. Pintan que alguna puede funcionar, gracias por eso. 
Comento y expongo si algún procedimiento funciona (en el mundo 
Processing la cosa es bastante win... :) . Abrazos desde el sur.


El 2/8/22 a las 04:33, Camaleón escribió:

El 2022-08-02 a las 03:27 -0300, Daniel escribió:

Buf... quito el formato html, mi pobre Mutt sólo ve una morcilla.

(...)


   Resumiendo: la misma aplicación/script hecha en Processing (y
   ejemplos similares que usan OpenGL) funciona perfecto desde el
   fuente, con el IDE de Processing corriendo (ejecutado usando la
   sintaxis con la variable de entorno antes ya comentada). Pero el
   ejecutable compilado no funciona si usa "P2D" o "P3D" (incluso
   seteando la variable de entorno que soluciona todo corriendo
   Processing).

(...)

Prueba con algunas de las opciones que indican por aquí:

3D amb processing
https://wiki.controlonline.net:1029/doku.php?id=tutorials:processing:19_3d

Principalmente, introducir dentro del código de la aplicación la opción
para desactivar «openglcore», porque entiendo que las otras dos
opciones ya las has probado sin éxito.

La página está en valenciano, si quieres traducirla con Google elige
la pareja Catalán a Español.

Saludos,

Re: OFF TOPIC - Problemas com mysql

[Mauricio Neto]

Amigos boa noite.

Quero agradecer a todos que me auxiliaram para solução do problema.

Hélio seu "chute" sobre estar usando dois processos mysql foi 
fundamental para solucionar o problema. Não estava com dois processos 
mysql mais configurações apontando para sockets diferentes, um apontando 
para/*/var/run*/mysqld/mysqld.sock /e outro para 
/*/run/*mysqld///mysqld.sock/. Por você ter "levantado essa bola" eu 
segui este caminho e encontrei o problema.


Alias o diretório//etc/mysql /criado por padrão na instalação do mysql 
com seus diversos arquivos de configuração parece ter sido criado 
propositalmente para testar a atenção e paciência ... :-)


Mas o importante é que esta resolvido.

Muito obrigado a todos,

Mauricio Neto

Em 25/04/2022 20:14, Mauricio Neto escreveu:


Helio boa tarde.

Achei interessante seu "chute" mas veja se estou com o raciocino errado:

No /etc/mysql/mysql.conf.d/mysqld.cnf

/[mysqld]//
//pid-file    = /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.pid//
//*socket  = /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock*//
//datadir = /dbase/mysql//
//log-error   = /var/log/mysql/error.log/

processos mysql:

/# netstat -ln | grep mysql
unix  2  [ ACC ] STREAM OUVINDO   18942 
/var/run/mysqld/mysqlx.sock
unix  2  [ ACC ] STREAM OUVINDO   18945 
/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock/


/# ps -ef |grep mysql//
//mysql   2812   1  0 17:04 ?    00:00:19 /usr/sbin/mysqld//
//root    3332    2541  0 18:15 pts/0    00:00:00 grep mysql/

O que me leva a crer que estou com apenas um processo mysql em 
execução e usando sockets.


mais isso me deixou com uma duvida:

/# netstat -tl | grep mys
tcp6   0  0 [::]:mysql [::]:*  OUÇA/

Obrigado

Mauricio Neto


Em 24/04/2022 11:24, Helio Loureiro escreveu:

Quando você conecta com o client, ele usa o arquivo de socket pra isso.

Eu chuto que o problema é que vc tem dois mysqld rodando.  Uma via 
TCP que parece estar certo, mas via socket entra no errado que parece 
ser um banco zerado (possivelmente a configuração default do MySQL).


./helio

On Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 16:05 Mauricio Neto  wrote:

Gustavo, bom dia e obrigado pelo retorno

É pratica minha  criar um filesystem separado para o database.
Então logo após a instalação do mysql, antes da instalação de
qualquer aplicativo que vá utilizar o banco, eu para o processo ,
copio os arquivos para o filesystem que defini para o database,
aplico as permissões necessárias, modifico o config do mysql e
reinicio o serviço.

O que acho muito estranho é que o Moodle e o Bacula estavam
funcionando perfeitamente. Moodle já com tema configurado e um
cursos disponível e o Bacula com backup full criado e testes de
recuperação que sempre efetuo. O problema apareceu em algum
momento após perfeito funcionamento das duas ferramentas
instaladas e testadas.

Apenas para confirmar, veja la nas evidencias que uso um ls
/dbase/mysql para mostrar a estrutura do mysql onde aparece os
bancos moodle e bacula e no arquivo de configuração do mysql
tenho a diretriz datadir = /dbase/mysql.
O Mysql inicia normalmente via systemctl start sem qualquer aviso
de erro log, com um arquivo de warning sobre usar o padrão de
senhas antigo. Consigo acessar normalmente o mysql (estranhamente
com root sem senha), o que não seria possível se  houvesse
divergência entre a localização do banco e a configuração no
arquivo.

Atenciosamente
Mauricio Neto



Em 23/04/2022 01:52, Gustavo Villela Goulart escreveu:

Opá Mauricio, boa noite!

Vc mexeu na conf do mysql?

Por default o path do datadir é: /var/lib/mysql
Seu datadir esta assim: /dbase/mysql

Se vc alterou essa configuração na mão, ou as aplicações que vc
esta usando fizeram essa alteração, é o que esta causando o
problema.
Para vc alterar o datadir do mysql, faça assim:
   - Pare o mysql
   - Copie todos os arquivos de /var/lib/mysql para o novo diretório
   - Altere o path  datadir        = /dbase/mysql
  - Inicie o mysql

Se vc não fez assim e só copiou os datafiles do bacula e da
outra aplicação, não vai funcionar. Se copiou com o banco
funcionando(mysql startado), provavelmente corrompeu os arquivos.

Espero ter ajudado.

Em sex., 22 de abr. de 2022 às 19:25, Mauricio Neto
 escreveu:

Amigo boa tarde.

Desculpe o off topic já que se trata de um problema de mysql
e não Debian mas como nesta comunidade temos conhecedores de
tudo relato uma situação muito estranha na esperança que
algum dos amigos já tenham visto algo parecido, ou posam
indicar um forum mais apropriado...

Instalei o mysql 8.0, Apache2, PHP7.4, o Moodle (EAD) e o
Bacula backup. tudo funcionando perfeitamente durante alguns
dias e sem que ocorresse qualquer evento estranho tenho o
seguinte cenár

Re: OFF TOPIC - Problemas com mysql

[Mauricio Neto]

Helio boa tarde.

Achei interessante seu "chute" mas veja se estou com o raciocino errado:

No /etc/mysql/mysql.conf.d/mysqld.cnf

/[mysqld]//
//pid-file    = /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.pid//
//*socket  = /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock*//
//datadir = /dbase/mysql//
//log-error   = /var/log/mysql/error.log/

processos mysql:

/# netstat -ln | grep mysql
unix  2  [ ACC ] STREAM OUVINDO   18942 
/var/run/mysqld/mysqlx.sock
unix  2  [ ACC ] STREAM OUVINDO   18945 
/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock/


/# ps -ef |grep mysql//
//mysql   2812   1  0 17:04 ?    00:00:19 /usr/sbin/mysqld//
//root    3332    2541  0 18:15 pts/0    00:00:00 grep mysql/

O que me leva a crer que estou com apenas um processo mysql em execução 
e usando sockets.


mais isso me deixou com uma duvida:

/# netstat -tl | grep mys
tcp6   0  0 [::]:mysql [::]:*  OUÇA/

Obrigado

Mauricio Neto


Em 24/04/2022 11:24, Helio Loureiro escreveu:

Quando você conecta com o client, ele usa o arquivo de socket pra isso.

Eu chuto que o problema é que vc tem dois mysqld rodando.  Uma via TCP 
que parece estar certo, mas via socket entra no errado que parece ser 
um banco zerado (possivelmente a configuração default do MySQL).


./helio

On Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 16:05 Mauricio Neto  wrote:

Gustavo, bom dia e obrigado pelo retorno

É pratica minha  criar um filesystem separado para o database.
Então logo após a instalação do mysql, antes da instalação de
qualquer aplicativo que vá utilizar o banco, eu para o processo ,
copio os arquivos para o filesystem que defini para o database,
aplico as permissões necessárias, modifico o config do mysql e
reinicio o serviço.

O que acho muito estranho é que o Moodle e o Bacula estavam
funcionando perfeitamente. Moodle já com tema configurado e um
cursos disponível e o Bacula com backup full criado e testes de
recuperação que sempre efetuo. O problema apareceu em algum
momento após perfeito funcionamento das duas ferramentas
instaladas e testadas.

Apenas para confirmar, veja la nas evidencias que uso um  ls
/dbase/mysql para mostrar a estrutura do mysql onde aparece os
bancos moodle e bacula e no arquivo de configuração do mysql tenho
a diretriz datadir = /dbase/mysql.
O Mysql inicia normalmente via systemctl start sem qualquer aviso
de erro log, com um arquivo de warning sobre usar o padrão de
senhas antigo. Consigo acessar normalmente o mysql (estranhamente
com root sem senha), o que não seria possível se  houvesse
divergência entre a localização do banco e a configuração no arquivo.

Atenciosamente
Mauricio Neto



Em 23/04/2022 01:52, Gustavo Villela Goulart escreveu:

Opá Mauricio, boa noite!

Vc mexeu na conf do mysql?

Por default o path do datadir é: /var/lib/mysql
Seu datadir esta assim: /dbase/mysql

Se vc alterou essa configuração na mão, ou as aplicações que vc
esta usando fizeram essa alteração, é o que esta causando o problema.
Para vc alterar o datadir do mysql, faça assim:
   - Pare o mysql
   - Copie todos os arquivos de /var/lib/mysql para o novo diretório
   - Altere o path  datadir        = /dbase/mysql
  - Inicie o mysql

Se vc não fez assim e só copiou os datafiles do bacula e da outra
aplicação, não vai funcionar. Se copiou com o banco
funcionando(mysql startado), provavelmente corrompeu os arquivos.

Espero ter ajudado.

Em sex., 22 de abr. de 2022 às 19:25, Mauricio Neto
 escreveu:

Amigo boa tarde.

Desculpe o off topic já que se trata de um problema de mysql
e não Debian mas como nesta comunidade temos conhecedores de
tudo relato uma situação muito estranha na esperança que
algum dos amigos já tenham visto algo parecido, ou posam
indicar um forum mais apropriado...

Instalei o mysql 8.0, Apache2, PHP7.4, o Moodle (EAD) e o
Bacula backup. tudo funcionando perfeitamente durante alguns
dias e sem que ocorresse qualquer evento estranho tenho o
seguinte cenário:

As aplicações não encontram os databases.

O  mysql -u root passa a conectar sem senha ou usando a opção
-p aceita qualquer besteira que eu digite como senha.
Originalmente criado com senha como sempre o faço e situação
verificada quando esquecia ou errava  a digitação da senha :-)

No repositório do mysql   (/dbase/mysql) existi os banco de
dados moodle e bacula como pode ser visto com o ls mas o
comando mysql show databases não mostra os bancos.

O comando select user   não mostra os usuários moodle e
bacula criados anteriormente para as respectivas bases de
dados e o não aparece mais nenhum hash de senha para o root.
Efetuei um teste definindo uma nova senha para o root com o
comando ALTER

Re: OFF TOPIC - Problemas com mysql

[Helio Loureiro]

Quando você conecta com o client, ele usa o arquivo de socket pra isso.

Eu chuto que o problema é que vc tem dois mysqld rodando.  Uma via TCP que
parece estar certo, mas via socket entra no errado que parece ser um banco
zerado (possivelmente a configuração default do MySQL).

./helio

On Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 16:05 Mauricio Neto  wrote:

> Gustavo, bom dia e obrigado pelo retorno
>
> É pratica minha  criar um filesystem separado para o database. Então logo
> após a instalação do mysql, antes da instalação de qualquer aplicativo que
> vá utilizar o banco, eu para o processo , copio os arquivos para o
> filesystem que defini para o database, aplico as permissões necessárias,
> modifico o config do mysql e reinicio o serviço.
>
> O que acho muito estranho é que o Moodle e o Bacula estavam funcionando
> perfeitamente. Moodle já com tema configurado e um cursos disponível e o
> Bacula com backup full criado e testes de recuperação que sempre efetuo. O
> problema apareceu em algum momento após perfeito funcionamento das duas
> ferramentas instaladas e testadas.
>
> Apenas para confirmar, veja la nas evidencias que uso um  ls /dbase/mysql
> para mostrar a estrutura do mysql onde aparece os bancos moodle e bacula e
> no arquivo de configuração do mysql tenho a diretriz datadir =
> /dbase/mysql.
> O Mysql inicia normalmente via systemctl start sem qualquer aviso de erro
> log, com um arquivo de warning sobre usar o padrão de senhas antigo.
> Consigo acessar normalmente o mysql (estranhamente com root sem senha), o
> que não seria possível se  houvesse divergência entre a localização do
> banco e a configuração no arquivo.
>
> Atenciosamente
> Mauricio Neto
>
>
>
> Em 23/04/2022 01:52, Gustavo Villela Goulart escreveu:
>
> Opá Mauricio, boa noite!
>
> Vc mexeu na conf do mysql?
>
> Por default o path do datadir é: /var/lib/mysql
> Seu datadir esta assim: /dbase/mysql
>
> Se vc alterou essa configuração na mão, ou as aplicações que vc esta
> usando fizeram essa alteração, é o que esta causando o problema.
> Para vc alterar o datadir do mysql, faça assim:
>- Pare o mysql
>- Copie todos os arquivos de /var/lib/mysql para o novo diretório
>- Altere o path  datadir= /dbase/mysql
>   - Inicie o mysql
>
> Se vc não fez assim e só copiou os datafiles do bacula e da outra
> aplicação, não vai funcionar. Se copiou com o banco funcionando(mysql
> startado), provavelmente corrompeu os arquivos.
>
> Espero ter ajudado.
>
> Em sex., 22 de abr. de 2022 às 19:25, Mauricio Neto 
> escreveu:
>
>> Amigo boa tarde.
>>
>> Desculpe o off topic já que se trata de um problema de mysql e não Debian
>> mas como nesta comunidade temos conhecedores de tudo relato uma situação
>> muito estranha na esperança que algum dos amigos já tenham visto algo
>> parecido, ou posam indicar um forum mais apropriado...
>>
>> Instalei o mysql 8.0, Apache2, PHP7.4, o Moodle (EAD) e o Bacula backup.
>> tudo funcionando perfeitamente durante alguns dias e sem que ocorresse
>> qualquer evento estranho tenho o seguinte cenário:
>>
>> As aplicações não encontram os databases.
>>
>> O  mysql -u root passa a conectar sem senha ou usando a opção -p aceita
>> qualquer besteira que eu digite como senha. Originalmente criado com senha
>> como sempre o faço e situação verificada quando esquecia ou errava  a
>> digitação da senha :-)
>>
>> No repositório do mysql   (/dbase/mysql) existi os banco de dados moodle
>> e bacula como pode ser visto com o ls mas o comando mysql show databases
>> não mostra os bancos.
>>
>> O comando select user   não mostra os usuários moodle e bacula
>> criados anteriormente para as respectivas bases de dados e o não aparece
>> mais nenhum hash de senha para o root.
>> Efetuei um teste definindo uma nova senha para o root com o comando
>> ALTER  conforme pode ser visto abaixo mas a senha não foi criada...
>>
>> O repositório do banco de dados (/dbase/mysql) esta usando o filesystem
>> XFS.
>>
>> Qualquer ajuda sera bem vinda, inclusive a indicação de um forum sobre
>> mysql.
>>
>> Agradecendo a todos,
>> Mauricio Neto
>>
>> =
>> ** EVIDENCIAS *
>>
>> +Teste do bacula
>>
>> bconsole
>> Connecting to Director Enterprise:9101
>> 1000 OK: 10002 Enterprise-dir Version: 11.0.5 (03 June 2021)
>> Enter a period to cancel a command.
>> *list volumes
>> Automatically selected Catalog: EnterpriseCatalog
>> Could not open catalog database "bacula".
>> mysql.c:290 Unable to connec

Re: OFF TOPIC - Problemas com mysql

[Mauricio Neto]

Gustavo, bom dia e obrigado pelo retorno

É pratica minha  criar um filesystem separado para o database. Então 
logo após a instalação do mysql, antes da instalação de qualquer 
aplicativo que vá utilizar o banco, eu para o processo , copio os 
arquivos para o filesystem que defini para o database, aplico as 
permissões necessárias, modifico o config do mysql e reinicio o serviço.


O que acho muito estranho é que o Moodle e o Bacula estavam funcionando 
perfeitamente. Moodle já com tema configurado e um cursos disponível e o 
Bacula com backup full criado e testes de recuperação que sempre efetuo. 
O problema apareceu em algum momento após perfeito funcionamento das 
duas ferramentas instaladas e testadas.


Apenas para confirmar, veja la nas evidencias que uso um  ls 
/dbase/mysql para mostrar a estrutura do mysql onde aparece os bancos 
moodle e bacula e no arquivo de configuração do mysql tenho a diretriz 
datadir = /dbase/mysql.
O Mysql inicia normalmente via systemctl start sem qualquer aviso de 
erro log, com um arquivo de warning sobre usar o padrão de senhas 
antigo. Consigo acessar normalmente o mysql (estranhamente com root sem 
senha), o que não seria possível se  houvesse divergência entre a 
localização do banco e a configuração no arquivo.


Atenciosamente
Mauricio Neto



Em 23/04/2022 01:52, Gustavo Villela Goulart escreveu:

Opá Mauricio, boa noite!

Vc mexeu na conf do mysql?

Por default o path do datadir é: /var/lib/mysql
Seu datadir esta assim: /dbase/mysql

Se vc alterou essa configuração na mão, ou as aplicações que vc esta 
usando fizeram essa alteração, é o que esta causando o problema.

Para vc alterar o datadir do mysql, faça assim:
   - Pare o mysql
   - Copie todos os arquivos de /var/lib/mysql para o novo diretório
   - Altere o path  datadir        = /dbase/mysql
  - Inicie o mysql

Se vc não fez assim e só copiou os datafiles do bacula e da outra 
aplicação, não vai funcionar. Se copiou com o banco funcionando(mysql 
startado), provavelmente corrompeu os arquivos.


Espero ter ajudado.

Em sex., 22 de abr. de 2022 às 19:25, Mauricio Neto 
 escreveu:


Amigo boa tarde.

Desculpe o off topic já que se trata de um problema de mysql e não
Debian mas como nesta comunidade temos conhecedores de tudo relato
uma situação muito estranha na esperança que algum dos amigos já
tenham visto algo parecido, ou posam indicar um forum mais
apropriado...

Instalei o mysql 8.0, Apache2, PHP7.4, o Moodle (EAD) e o Bacula
backup. tudo funcionando perfeitamente durante alguns dias e sem
que ocorresse qualquer evento estranho tenho o seguinte cenário:

As aplicações não encontram os databases.

O  mysql -u root passa a conectar sem senha ou usando a opção -p
aceita qualquer besteira que eu digite como senha. Originalmente
criado com senha como sempre o faço e situação verificada quando
esquecia ou errava  a digitação da senha :-)

No repositório do mysql   (/dbase/mysql) existi os banco de dados
moodle e bacula como pode ser visto com o ls mas o comando mysql
show databases não mostra os bancos.

O comando select user   não mostra os usuários moodle e bacula
criados anteriormente para as respectivas bases de dados e o não
aparece mais nenhum hash de senha para o root.
Efetuei um teste definindo uma nova senha para o root com o
comando ALTER  conforme pode ser visto abaixo mas a senha não foi
criada...

O repositório do banco de dados (/dbase/mysql) esta usando o
filesystem XFS.

Qualquer ajuda sera bem vinda, inclusive a indicação de um forum
sobre mysql.

Agradecendo a todos,
Mauricio Neto

=
** EVIDENCIAS *

+Teste do bacula

bconsole
Connecting to Director Enterprise:9101
1000 OK: 10002 Enterprise-dir Version: 11.0.5 (03 June 2021)
Enter a period to cancel a command.
*list volumes
Automatically selected Catalog: EnterpriseCatalog
Could not open catalog database "bacula".
mysql.c:290 Unable to connect to MySQL server.
Database=bacula User=bacula
MySQL connect failed either server not running or your
authorization is incorrect.
You have messages.
*mess
22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: No Jobs found to prune.
22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: Begin pruning Files.
22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: No Files found to prune.
22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: End auto prune.

*list jobs
Could not open catalog database "bacula".
mysql.c:290 Unable to connect to MySQL server.
Database=bacula User=bacula
MySQL connect failed either server not running or your
authorization is incorrect.
==
+ Configuração mysql

/etc/mysql/mysql.conf.d# more mysqld.cnf

[mysqld]
pid-file    = /var/run/mysqld/m

Re: OFF TOPIC - Problemas com mysql

[Gustavo Villela Goulart]

Opá Mauricio, boa noite!

Vc mexeu na conf do mysql?

Por default o path do datadir é: /var/lib/mysql
Seu datadir esta assim: /dbase/mysql

Se vc alterou essa configuração na mão, ou as aplicações que vc esta usando
fizeram essa alteração, é o que esta causando o problema.
Para vc alterar o datadir do mysql, faça assim:
   - Pare o mysql
   - Copie todos os arquivos de /var/lib/mysql para o novo diretório
   - Altere o path  datadir= /dbase/mysql
  - Inicie o mysql

Se vc não fez assim e só copiou os datafiles do bacula e da outra
aplicação, não vai funcionar. Se copiou com o banco funcionando(mysql
startado), provavelmente corrompeu os arquivos.

Espero ter ajudado.

Em sex., 22 de abr. de 2022 às 19:25, Mauricio Neto 
escreveu:

> Amigo boa tarde.
>
> Desculpe o off topic já que se trata de um problema de mysql e não Debian
> mas como nesta comunidade temos conhecedores de tudo relato uma situação
> muito estranha na esperança que algum dos amigos já tenham visto algo
> parecido, ou posam indicar um forum mais apropriado...
>
> Instalei o mysql 8.0, Apache2, PHP7.4, o Moodle (EAD) e o Bacula backup.
> tudo funcionando perfeitamente durante alguns dias e sem que ocorresse
> qualquer evento estranho tenho o seguinte cenário:
>
> As aplicações não encontram os databases.
>
> O  mysql -u root passa a conectar sem senha ou usando a opção -p aceita
> qualquer besteira que eu digite como senha. Originalmente criado com senha
> como sempre o faço e situação verificada quando esquecia ou errava  a
> digitação da senha :-)
>
> No repositório do mysql   (/dbase/mysql) existi os banco de dados moodle e
> bacula como pode ser visto com o ls mas o comando mysql show databases não
> mostra os bancos.
>
> O comando select user   não mostra os usuários moodle e bacula criados
> anteriormente para as respectivas bases de dados e o não aparece mais
> nenhum hash de senha para o root.
> Efetuei um teste definindo uma nova senha para o root com o comando ALTER
> conforme pode ser visto abaixo mas a senha não foi criada...
>
> O repositório do banco de dados (/dbase/mysql) esta usando o filesystem
> XFS.
>
> Qualquer ajuda sera bem vinda, inclusive a indicação de um forum sobre
> mysql.
>
> Agradecendo a todos,
> Mauricio Neto
>
> =
> ** EVIDENCIAS *
>
> +Teste do bacula
>
> bconsole
> Connecting to Director Enterprise:9101
> 1000 OK: 10002 Enterprise-dir Version: 11.0.5 (03 June 2021)
> Enter a period to cancel a command.
> *list volumes
> Automatically selected Catalog: EnterpriseCatalog
> Could not open catalog database "bacula".
> mysql.c:290 Unable to connect to MySQL server.
> Database=bacula User=bacula
> MySQL connect failed either server not running or your authorization is
> incorrect.
> You have messages.
> *mess
> 22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: No Jobs found to prune.
> 22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: Begin pruning Files.
> 22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: No Files found to prune.
> 22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: End auto prune.
>
> *list jobs
> Could not open catalog database "bacula".
> mysql.c:290 Unable to connect to MySQL server.
> Database=bacula User=bacula
> MySQL connect failed either server not running or your authorization is
> incorrect.
> ==
> + Configuração mysql
>
> /etc/mysql/mysql.conf.d# more mysqld.cnf
>
> [mysqld]
> pid-file= /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.pid
> socket= /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock
> datadir= /dbase/mysql
> log-error= /var/log/mysql/error.log
>
> innodb_file_per_table= 1
> character-set-server= utf8mb4
> collation-server = utf8mb4_unicode_ci
> skip-character-set-client-handshake
>
> [mysql]
> default-character-set = utf8mb4
> ===
> ++ Usando o mysql
>
> mysql -u root
> Welcome to the MySQL monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.
>
> mysql> show databases;
> ++
> | Database   |
> ++
> | information_schema |
> | mysql  |
> | performance_schema |
> | sys|
> ++
> 4 rows in set (0,01 sec)
> ==
> ls /dbase/mysql
>  auto.cnf binlog.04 binlog.09 client-cert.pem
> ibdata1  mysql   server-cert.pem
>  *bacula* binlog.05 binlog.10
>  client-key.pem   ib_logfile0 mysql.ibd   server-key.pem
>  binlog.01 binlog.06 binlog.index'#ib_16384_0.dblwr'
> ib_logfile1 performance_schema   

OFF TOPIC - Problemas com mysql

[Mauricio Neto]

Amigo boa tarde.

Desculpe o off topic já que se trata de um problema de mysql e não 
Debian mas como nesta comunidade temos conhecedores de tudo relato uma 
situação muito estranha na esperança que algum dos amigos já tenham 
visto algo parecido, ou posam indicar um forum mais apropriado...


Instalei o mysql 8.0, Apache2, PHP7.4, o Moodle (EAD) e o Bacula backup. 
tudo funcionando perfeitamente durante alguns dias e sem que ocorresse 
qualquer evento estranho tenho o seguinte cenário:


As aplicações não encontram os databases.

O  mysql -u root passa a conectar sem senha ou usando a opção -p aceita 
qualquer besteira que eu digite como senha. Originalmente criado com 
senha como sempre o faço e situação verificada quando esquecia ou 
errava  a digitação da senha :-)


No repositório do mysql   (/dbase/mysql) existi os banco de dados moodle 
e bacula como pode ser visto com o ls mas o comando mysql show databases 
não mostra os bancos.


O comando select user   não mostra os usuários moodle e bacula 
criados anteriormente para as respectivas bases de dados e o não aparece 
mais nenhum hash de senha para o root.
Efetuei um teste definindo uma nova senha para o root com o comando 
ALTER  conforme pode ser visto abaixo mas a senha não foi criada...


O repositório do banco de dados (/dbase/mysql) esta usando o filesystem XFS.

Qualquer ajuda sera bem vinda, inclusive a indicação de um forum sobre 
mysql.


Agradecendo a todos,
Mauricio Neto

=
** EVIDENCIAS *

+Teste do bacula

bconsole
Connecting to Director Enterprise:9101
1000 OK: 10002 Enterprise-dir Version: 11.0.5 (03 June 2021)
Enter a period to cancel a command.
*list volumes
Automatically selected Catalog: EnterpriseCatalog
Could not open catalog database "bacula".
mysql.c:290 Unable to connect to MySQL server.
Database=bacula User=bacula
MySQL connect failed either server not running or your authorization is 
incorrect.

You have messages.
*mess
22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: No Jobs found to prune.
22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: Begin pruning Files.
22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: No Files found to prune.
22-abr 01:25 Enterprise-dir JobId 4: End auto prune.

*list jobs
Could not open catalog database "bacula".
mysql.c:290 Unable to connect to MySQL server.
Database=bacula User=bacula
MySQL connect failed either server not running or your authorization is 
incorrect.

==
+ Configuração mysql

/etc/mysql/mysql.conf.d# more mysqld.cnf

[mysqld]
pid-file    = /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.pid
socket        = /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock
datadir        = /dbase/mysql
log-error    = /var/log/mysql/error.log

innodb_file_per_table    = 1
character-set-server    = utf8mb4
collation-server     = utf8mb4_unicode_ci
skip-character-set-client-handshake

[mysql]
default-character-set = utf8mb4
===
++ Usando o mysql

mysql -u root
Welcome to the MySQL monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.

mysql> show databases;
++
| Database   |
++
| information_schema |
| mysql  |
| performance_schema |
| sys    |
++
4 rows in set (0,01 sec)
==
ls /dbase/mysql
 auto.cnf     binlog.04     binlog.09  client-cert.pem  
ibdata1      mysql server-cert.pem
*bacula*         binlog.05     binlog.10  client-key.pem   
ib_logfile0 mysql.ibd server-key.pem
 binlog.01     binlog.06     binlog.index '#ib_16384_0.dblwr'   
ib_logfile1 performance_schema   sys
 binlog.02     binlog.07     ca-key.pem '#ib_16384_1.dblwr'  
'#innodb_temp'   private_key.pem       undo_001
 binlog.03     binlog.08     ca.pem  ib_buffer_pool *moodle*    
  public_key.pem undo_002


mysql> select user, host, authentication_string from mysql.user;
+--+---++
| user | host  | authentication_string |
+--+---++
| mysql.infoschema | localhost | 
$A$005$THISISACOMBINATIONOFINVALIDSALTANDPASSWORDTHATMUSTNEVERBRBEUSED |
| mysql.session    | localhost | 
$A$005$THISISACOMBINATIONOFINVALIDSALTANDPASSWORDTHATMUSTNEVERBRBEUSED |
| mysql.sys    | localhost | 
$A$005$THISISACOMBINATIONOFINVALIDSALTANDPASSWORDTHATMUSTNEVERBRBEUSED |

| root | localhost | |
+--+---++
4 rows in set (0,00 sec)

===
** TESTE TESTE TESTE 

Re: off topic-cura question

[Peter Hillier-Brook]

On 05/02/2022 12:13, gene heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

Does anyone have an address that willl actually get to the Ultimaker-cura
developers? I have a wish, bug to report.

Thanks all, pm's ok.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.


Might this be a good place to start?:
https://support.ultimaker.com/hc/en-us

off topic-cura question

[gene heskett]

Greetings all;

Does anyone have an address that willl actually get to the Ultimaker-cura 
developers? I have a wish, bug to report.

Thanks all, pm's ok.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[Terence]

Many thanks - now it's back to normal! (whatever that is in these Covid
days!)


On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 12:17, piorunz  wrote:

> On 29/11/2021 12:02, Terence wrote:
> > Many thanks, Piotr, that's done it. Since the early 1990s I have always
> > been impressed by the support given on the Debian lists - wonderful!
>
> You are most welcome!
>
> Now as you have working firefox, you can import everything from old
> profile if you are using Mozilla cloud sync, or if you don't, you can
> try to fix old profile: CTRL+F5 on the page (forces to drop caches on
> this page), clean cookies, clean cache, cache, disable addons, until you
> have this resolved. Good luck :)
>
> --
> With kindest regards, Piotr.
>
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
> ⠈⠳⣄
>

Re: Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[piorunz]

On 29/11/2021 12:02, Terence wrote:

Many thanks, Piotr, that's done it. Since the early 1990s I have always
been impressed by the support given on the Debian lists - wonderful!


You are most welcome!

Now as you have working firefox, you can import everything from old
profile if you are using Mozilla cloud sync, or if you don't, you can
try to fix old profile: CTRL+F5 on the page (forces to drop caches on
this page), clean cookies, clean cache, cache, disable addons, until you
have this resolved. Good luck :)

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[Terence]

Many thanks, Piotr, that's done it. Since the early 1990s I have always
been impressed by the support given on the Debian lists - wonderful!


On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 11:03, piorunz  wrote:

> Please try new profile.
>
> firefox-esr -P
>
> is the command to run. Usually everything works on clean, new profile.
> When you confirm that, you can concentrate to restore your old profile
> to working order.
>
> On 29/11/2021 09:43, Terence wrote:
> > Thank you, all. I'm not running NoScript but thank you for the
> > suggestion. It does seem strange as I'v e used it for years with no
> problem.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 19:31, Hans  > > wrote:
> >
> > Am Sonntag, 28. November 2021, 20:22:25 CET schrieb
> > harrywea...@tutanota.com :
> >
> > Running debian/stable, amd64, fully updated. No problems here.
> >
> > Just a guess: Are you running NoScript plugin im Firefox? Maybe it
> > is not
> > trusted.
> >
> > Have fun!
> >
> > Hans
> >  > > Duckduckgo shows its search page in Firefox as normal, but
> > returns no
> >  > > search result. It works fine in Chromium as usual.
> >  > >
> >  > > Has anyone else the same problem/
> >  >
> >  > No problem here, on SID!
> >  > Cheers!
> >  >
> >  > Harry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> With kindest regards, Piotr.
>
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
> ⠈⠳⣄
>
>

Re: Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[piorunz]

Please try new profile.

firefox-esr -P

is the command to run. Usually everything works on clean, new profile.
When you confirm that, you can concentrate to restore your old profile
to working order.

On 29/11/2021 09:43, Terence wrote:

Thank you, all. I'm not running NoScript but thank you for the
suggestion. It does seem strange as I'v e used it for years with no problem.


On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 19:31, Hans mailto:hans.ullr...@loop.de>> wrote:

Am Sonntag, 28. November 2021, 20:22:25 CET schrieb
harrywea...@tutanota.com :

Running debian/stable, amd64, fully updated. No problems here.

Just a guess: Are you running NoScript plugin im Firefox? Maybe it
is not
trusted.

Have fun!

Hans
 > > Duckduckgo shows its search page in Firefox as normal, but
returns no
 > > search result. It works fine in Chromium as usual.
 > >
 > > Has anyone else the same problem/
 >
 > No problem here, on SID!
 > Cheers!
 >
 > Harry.







--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[Terence]

Thank you, all. I'm not running NoScript but thank you for the suggestion.
It does seem strange as I'v e used it for years with no problem.


On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 19:31, Hans  wrote:

> Am Sonntag, 28. November 2021, 20:22:25 CET schrieb
> harrywea...@tutanota.com:
>
> Running debian/stable, amd64, fully updated. No problems here.
>
> Just a guess: Are you running NoScript plugin im Firefox? Maybe it is not
> trusted.
>
> Have fun!
>
> Hans
> > > Duckduckgo shows its search page in Firefox as normal, but returns no
> > > search result. It works fine in Chromium as usual.
> > >
> > > Has anyone else the same problem/
> >
> > No problem here, on SID!
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Harry.
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[Hans]

Am Sonntag, 28. November 2021, 20:22:25 CET schrieb harrywea...@tutanota.com:

Running debian/stable, amd64, fully updated. No problems here. 

Just a guess: Are you running NoScript plugin im Firefox? Maybe it is not 
trusted.

Have fun!

Hans
> > Duckduckgo shows its search page in Firefox as normal, but returns no
> > search result. It works fine in Chromium as usual.
> > 
> > Has anyone else the same problem/
> 
> No problem here, on SID!
> Cheers!
> 
> Harry.

Re: Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[Nicolas George]

Terence (12021-11-28):
> Duckduckgo shows its search page in Firefox as normal, but returns no
> search result. It works fine in Chromium as usual.
> 
> Has anyone else the same problem/

I do not know if it is related, but I have observed problems of parts of
some pages not displaying, or displaying as flat rectangles, just after
a Firefox upgrade to 78.15.0esr-1~deb11u1. I downgraded to
78.14.0esr-1+b1 for now.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[harryweaver]

-- 
 Sent with Tutanota, the secure & ad-free mailbox. 



29 Nov 2021, 02:22 by terence.j...@gmail.com:

> Duckduckgo shows its search page in Firefox as normal, but returns no search 
> result. It works fine in Chromium as usual.
>
> Has anyone else the same problem/
>
>
No problem here, on SID!
Cheers!

Harry.

Re: Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[Erwan David]

Le 28/11/2021 à 17:22, Terence a écrit :
Duckduckgo shows its search page in Firefox as normal, but returns no 
search result. It works fine in Chromium as usual.


Has anyone else the same problem/


Works for me (but I do not use the firefox package, I use the upstream 
software)

Off Topic: Firefox and Duckduckgo Failure

[Terence]

Duckduckgo shows its search page in Firefox as normal, but returns no
search result. It works fine in Chromium as usual.

Has anyone else the same problem/

[Off topic] Linux lynxes. was: Re: question from total newbie.

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Jude DaShiell wrote:
> I've been installing debian since sarge and remember
> no lynx code word attached to any debian version.

There was an Ubuntu release named Lucid Lynx, 11 years ago.
(My bet is that it won't run on a contemporary laptop.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 07:27:17AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> I think the primary use case of debian-user-offtopic would be to
> have a place for people on debian-user to tell others to move
> their threads.

It is technically feasible of course. That's not the bit I'd have
doubts about.

One of the common defences of the abundance of off-topic posting
here is that with proper use of a mail client they are easy to
ignore. I would also suggest that with proper use of a mail client
one can set followups to another place, i.e. the off-topic place. In
such a way, an experienced mail sender could diverge into off-topic
land for one mail but the replies would come to the other place, for
that audience.

What I don't believe though, is there there is any will amongst the
most prolific posters to do this. I think that they have decided
they are entitled to post that stuff here and absent any actual
enforced rule change they will not stop doing so.

It sounds sensible and polite to move the conversation, *if* you
believe that the conversation doesn't belong on debian-user. If you
don't believe that then one person's "sensible and polite" becomes
another's "unacceptably controlling and politically correct attempt
to destroy the community",

So I see a separate off-topic list as doomed to go the same way as
the previous effort, because hardly anyone will use it. I see it as
an easier task to get the support traffic off debian-user to a place
where it can be handled alone, than it would be at this point to get
the off-topic posts off of debian-user.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 9:04 a.m., Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Thu, 2021-08-19 at 07:23 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> I've been subscribed to this list for a long time and I've seen a
>> change in how it is being used, which I think is harmful to its core
>> purpose
> 
> 100% agree.  I'm another long time subscriber here and this is just
> bonkers lately.  The noise has surpassed the signal for at least the
> last 6 months.  Trying times perhaps, but geeze this is not a good image
> to present to new Debian users.
I totally agree but can't say for the six months as I've been on the
list for only 4 months. One thing I can agree is that it sends a bad
image to new Debian users, even more when we tell  them rudely that they
are going against a specific rule.
Not everyone will take the time to read the FAQ and guidelines entirely
before subscribing. In a ideal world, we'd all read the guidelines, FAQ
and all the documents before joining this list. But it's not what's
happening and it will never be.
Still, this doesn't justify being rude or lacking consideration for new
comers. I've been on mailing list before but that was 10 years ago and
those we're only local ones we created for the university. Some rules
developed by itself.
So when someone told be in a really direct manner and without more
explanation "no top posting", I didn't really understand what he meant
until I did a search for the term. I understood easily what it was,
because we had this rule but hadn't named it, we just explained it.
Yes it's easier when someone ask about "Devuan" to tell him in a quick
say "Go away", but is this really helpful ? I doubt...
What does it take as a time to explain why it may not be the best place
for this question ain't that much. Because this person asked the
question in good faith and we have to respect him. It may be a nice
acronym RTFM but it's far from being polite.
The world has changed and so does the user on this list. Some people may
say "I've been on this list for 20 years, was better before". Yes it was
different before but those are changes that goes with the fact that now
Linux is more democratic. Some distribution made good publicity (I think
of Ubuntu) and this made more people start using Linux, even ones that
weren't system admins or that weren't forced to use a Unix/Linux system
to run some specific application or services. And Debian itself got
easier to use, with a widespread support for most common hardware on the
x86/x64 platform.
Wasn't the goal of all this to get new users to Debian ? Don't we want
as much user as possible to use Debian ? So that they can also test the
software we all use and give us feedback, even discover bugs that didn't
pop up at us ?
We can't expect all those new users to be Cisco certified network
administrator or to have a master degree in computer science, being able
to write in assembly language, C/C++/Fortran and some Lisp too. We have
to accept those new users and remember that we also asked question that
seem stupid for others and we also asked question that the answer we're
in the first page of the manual.
If we can look at ourselves and that's not something that everyone seems
able to do. Or we can join the club of all the people nostalgic of the
soviet union and the 1970s and dream of the cold war but if we do so
then we must also go back using a 1200 baud modem and a teletype.
> 
> -Jim P.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, 2021-08-19 at 07:23 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I've been subscribed to this list for a long time and I've seen a
> change in how it is being used, which I think is harmful to its core
> purpose

100% agree.  I'm another long time subscriber here and this is just
bonkers lately.  The noise has surpassed the signal for at least the
last 6 months.  Trying times perhaps, but geeze this is not a good image
to present to new Debian users.

-Jim P.

Re: Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list ...]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 4:34 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 04:27:08AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2021-08-19 2:18 a.m., deloptes wrote:
>>> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
>>> moral superiority syndrome.
>>>
>> wow ! you seem really to have your mind sticking somewhere what does
>> politics has to do with this discussion ?
> 
> Just a humble suggestion: Polyna, please, keep it low. It was an obvious
> flamebait. If you jump (too much) for it, you are just playing his game.
> 
+1 agree
> Cheers
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 4:04 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 12:51:24AM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Do you really think it's that bad?
> 
> I actually agree that it is manageable. OTOH, things are
> changing, and change must be tackled.
> 
> Community is these days more diverse than it used to be.
> This is a Good Thing, but it makes communication a more
> "interesting" task. No free lunch :-)
+1 for this nice thought
> 
> Cheers
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list ...]

[tomas]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 04:27:08AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2021-08-19 2:18 a.m., deloptes wrote:
> > Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

[...]

> > You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
> > moral superiority syndrome.
> > 
> wow ! you seem really to have your mind sticking somewhere what does
> politics has to do with this discussion ?

Just a humble suggestion: Polyna, please, keep it low. It was an obvious
flamebait. If you jump (too much) for it, you are just playing his game.

Cheers
 - t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants ...]

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 3:47 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 08:18:37AM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
>> moral superiority syndrome.
> 
> This is a crudely obvious flamebait. Why do you do this?
> 
I don't know why he does this.

But surely made me laugh to see such comment on a forum based on
cooperation and community support. That's pretty much "leftist" or
socialist as we could say.

I may have had the wrong words with some user (I think of Gunnar Gervin
for example), but I always tried in good faith to help out. Even if this
meant taking a message and time so I could explain to this user some
basic rules like "don't top post", "ask simple question, describe your
hardware", etc... I've never went this far as insulting people or
supposed political opinion or anything personal.

I think the best is only to ignore those type of behavior.
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 2:18 a.m., deloptes wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
>> putting yourself on the *good* side.
>>
> 
> see this is exactly the attitude I am reffering to. 
> 
>> What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
>> over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
>> giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
>> acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
>> itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.
>>
> 
> You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
> moral superiority syndrome.
> 
wow ! you seem really to have your mind sticking somewhere what does
politics has to do with this discussion ?

it's kind of awkward to talk against leftist when this list if for
cooperation and support, all of this without getting anything in return.
you seem a bit upset, is it possible to help you ?

you have something constructive to say ?

other than the fact that you seem to really dislike people who you call
*leftist*, I have serious doubt about your ability to discuss in a
civilized manner without resorting to personal insult.

accusing me of correcting someone and acting like you do is one type of
*laughable irony*
>> That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
>> ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
>> was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...
> 
> This post was totally unnecessary. And this is my problem with you.
> I usually ignore what you write, but as this is in the focus of the
> discussion, I write this only once and "plonk" you. I am sorry for that and
> for you and for your family especially children if you have such.
> 

go ahead and plonk me one more time. feels to me like reading a high
school teenager being pissed off *sorry for your family and children*
that's low level name calling that the only comment I can add... You
must be damn sad if you have all those emotions for everybody around

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 12:51:24AM -0700, Weaver wrote:

Do you really think it's that bad?


Yes.


I can remember back when I would wake up in the morning to have over 300
list messages on screen.
And, many of those were Off-Topic but, usually, people were reasonably
active in labelling them as such.


I don't think labelling helps people who are not experienced with
mailing lists and so can interpret threads and suchlike properly,
which is the audience I want to help.


On the other hand, the majority, as it is now, would be on topic.


It doesn't *feel* to me that the majority are on topic now, but I
haven't sat down and classified a sample to truly find out.


And, further, those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to
repeat it.
We've had an off-topic mailing list in the past.
I actually signed up for it and spent a little time there.
It was a ghost town.
It simply didn't work.


Yes it didn't work, that's my impression too. So I agree with you at
least as far it would not be worth doing the exact same thing again.
One thing that wasn't done last time (or really, at any time) was
to enforce the mailing list rules more strictly. Therefore there was
no incentive for people to bother using the second list. Perhaps
stronger enforcement of the rules is needed. In which case, having a
more relaxed list where off-topic wasn't a problem might be a more
attractive proposition.

The proper place to have a discussion about whether or not the rules
should be enforced is, of course, not here: so I will do so elsewhere.

Lest it seem that I am totally "down" on the community that does exist
on -user: I think there's value in fact that a group of people with a
shared interest enjoy discussing all matter of other things. I don't
want that destroyed. I'd like to see how it might better co-exist with
the user-support aspect of the mailing list. But I might be tilting at
windmills here. There's a reason that almost no other Debian developers
engage with this list, despite them all being, almost by definition,
Debian users.


--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[tomas]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 12:51:24AM -0700, Weaver wrote:

[...]

> Do you really think it's that bad?

I actually agree that it is manageable. OTOH, things are
changing, and change must be tackled.

Community is these days more diverse than it used to be.
This is a Good Thing, but it makes communication a more
"interesting" task. No free lunch :-)

Cheers
 - t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[Weaver]

On 19-08-2021 16:23, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 01:34:24AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside 
> wrote:
>>What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
>>over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
>>giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
>>acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
>>itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.
> 
> I can't speak for Brian but I've been subscribed to this list for a long
> time and I've seen a change in how it is being used, which I think is
> harmful to its core purpose, and so I (and others) are trying to find a
> way to fix that. With respect, you've only been active here for a very
> short while, so you don't have the perspective that others do on the
> problem.
> 
> People posting off-topic and going off on tangents has always happened.

Correct!

> What has changed is the frequency and duration of those tangents, which
> are now drowning out everything else.

Do you really think it's that bad?
I can remember back when I would wake up in the morning to have over 300
list messages on screen.
And, many of those were Off-Topic but, usually, people were reasonably
active in labelling them as such.
On the other hand, the majority, as it is now, would be on topic.
Some _technically_ productive content would be there, and often, once
that purpose had been served, many of those would become off-topic,
also.
But, as I have recently stated, interaction, within a community, is
important, whether the content is on or off-topic.
Within reason.
When carried to the extreme, it's not productive.

And, further, those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to
repeat it.
We've had an off-topic mailing list in the past.
I actually signed up for it and spent a little time there.
It was a ghost town.
It simply didn't work.
Cheers!

Harry.

-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

Flamebait [was: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants ...]

[tomas]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 08:18:37AM +0200, deloptes wrote:

[...]

> You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
> moral superiority syndrome.

This is a crudely obvious flamebait. Why do you do this?

 - t


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Description: Digital signature

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 01:34:24AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.


I can't speak for Brian but I've been subscribed to this list for a long
time and I've seen a change in how it is being used, which I think is
harmful to its core purpose, and so I (and others) are trying to find a
way to fix that. With respect, you've only been active here for a very
short while, so you don't have the perspective that others do on the
problem.

People posting off-topic and going off on tangents has always happened.
What has changed is the frequency and duration of those tangents, which
are now drowning out everything else.


That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...


No decision has been made. The people coming here for help and having
their threads diverted with trips down memory lane have not "chosen" for
that to happen.



--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[deloptes]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
> putting yourself on the *good* side.
> 

see this is exactly the attitude I am reffering to. 

> What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
> over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
> giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
> acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
> itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.
> 

You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
moral superiority syndrome.

> That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
> ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
> was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...

This post was totally unnecessary. And this is my problem with you.
I usually ignore what you write, but as this is in the focus of the
discussion, I write this only once and "plonk" you. I am sorry for that and
for you and for your family especially children if you have such.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-18 12:57 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Wed 18 Aug 2021 at 14:27:13 +0200, deloptes wrote:
> 
>> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>>
>>> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
>>> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
>>> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
>>> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
>>> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
>>> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
>>> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.
>>
>> I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
>> communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
>> then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
>> off topic.
> 
> A decent argument. Put with the observation that off-topic in
> a -user thread can rapidly escalate, the idea of a separate 
> "sin-bin" list is a non-starter. Also, it did not work in the
> past.
> 
>> I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
>> annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
>> some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
>> prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
>> I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
>> (and "plonk" as little as possible).
> 
> I hope so too. There is nothing wrong with some degree of social
> inreraction on the list; it might be said to grease the wheels.
> But think of the user who submits a technical query and those who
> attempt to address it. Would an influx of posts on AA batteries,
> 300 baud modems and short-term memory be seen as being respectful
> to *those* users?
> 
> I am not suggesting that a touch of off-topic should necessarily
> be seen as disrespectful, but as a present campaign in the UK has
> it - Whem the Fun Stops Stop.
> 
> Perhaps, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter. The good ship
> debian-user will continue to naviagte the choppy seas of Community
> assistance and support for Debian users.
> 

You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
putting yourself on the *good* side.

What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.

That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-17 7:04 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 14:56:30 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
>> lot 
>> of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.
> 
> Nice? Really? There was one. It failed abysmally in its task. The boys
> and girls post here what they want when they want. 150+ off-topic posts
> in a recent thread, ranging from comments on user behaviour to plonking
> to 300 baud modems. Self-discipline abandonned.
> 
>> Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now 
>> puzzling 
>> over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
>> flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 
>> 120 
>> maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
>> give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
>> topic mail list.
> 
> This paragrapgh illustrates my point. Something is suggested then taken
> immediately off-topic. All in the space of a single mail. There isn't
> any solution. Lie back and think of Debian :).
> 
There's always the solution that if you ain't happy then create your own
community with moderated mailing list. If not, then enjoy what's offered
here and try to be positive.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Brian]

On Wed 18 Aug 2021 at 14:27:13 +0200, deloptes wrote:

> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> 
> > I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
> > official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
> > such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
> > of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
> > d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
> > things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
> > around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.
> 
> I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
> communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
> then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
> off topic.

A decent argument. Put with the observation that off-topic in
a -user thread can rapidly escalate, the idea of a separate 
"sin-bin" list is a non-starter. Also, it did not work in the
past.

> I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
> annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
> some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
> prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
> I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
> (and "plonk" as little as possible).

I hope so too. There is nothing wrong with some degree of social
inreraction on the list; it might be said to grease the wheels.
But think of the user who submits a technical query and those who
attempt to address it. Would an influx of posts on AA batteries,
300 baud modems and short-term memory be seen as being respectful
to *those* users?

I am not suggesting that a touch of off-topic should necessarily
be seen as disrespectful, but as a present campaign in the UK has
it - Whem the Fun Stops Stop.

Perhaps, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter. The good ship
debian-user will continue to naviagte the choppy seas of Community
assistance and support for Debian users.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[deloptes]

Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.

I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
off topic.
I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
(and "plonk" as little as possible).


-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[rhkramer]

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 07:27:17 AM Dan Ritter wrote:
> I think the primary use case of debian-user-offtopic would be to
> have a place for people on debian-user to tell others to move
> their threads.

That sounds like a useful thing -- somebody could point out that a post is off-
topic and request that the OP (and responders) move the discussion there 
(including the original post).

(Or, of course, ideally the poster would recognize that a subject was off topic 
and post it to that list right from the start.)

> Would it thrive independently of that? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
> more so if all the subscribers of debian-user were automatically
> subscribed to debian-user-offtopic, and had to unsubscribe
> manually.

I like that idea also.  

Maybe also add a short blurb at the bottom of debian-user (like the 
unsubscribe blurb -- oh, wait, on this list that is in the headers and not 
immediately visible in my email client (List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:debian-user-
requ...@lists.debian.org?subject=unsubscribe>) -- I think it would take 
something more visible.

People who are willing to "consider" off topic questions could remain 
subscribed, people who wanted no part of off topic discussions could 
unsubscribe.

Hmm, not sure the idea is ready for prime time, but maybe still worth 
discussing / considering.,,

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Dan Ritter]

Jonathan Dowland wrote: 
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 02:56:30PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
> > lot
> > of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.
> 
> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.

I don't think that's causal.

I think the primary use case of debian-user-offtopic would be to
have a place for people on debian-user to tell others to move
their threads.

Would it thrive independently of that? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
more so if all the subscribers of debian-user were automatically
subscribed to debian-user-offtopic, and had to unsubscribe
manually.

-dsr-

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 02:56:30PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a lot
of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.


I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.



--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[Weaver]

On 18-08-2021 09:04, Brian wrote:
> On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 14:56:30 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
>> lot
>> of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.
> 
> Nice? Really? There was one. It failed abysmally in its task. The boys
> and girls post here what they want when they want. 150+ off-topic posts
> in a recent thread, ranging from comments on user behaviour to plonking
> to 300 baud modems. Self-discipline abandonned.
> 
>> Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now 
>> puzzling
>> over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED
>> flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 120
>> maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd
>> give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
>> topic mail list.
> 
> This paragrapgh illustrates my point. Something is suggested then taken
> immediately off-topic. All in the space of a single mail. There isn't
> any solution. Lie back and think of Debian :).

:-D
Well, that's exactly what it serves!
There's a narrow viewpoint present that believes anything that deviates
from the subject of Debian weakens Debian, when it's _exactly_ the
opposite.
Debian is a community project.
It's strength is reliant on its community.
If that community is limited, it limits Debian.
The more the the community aspect is developed, the better off Debian
is, because it's Debian which benefits.

In this thread, we have had an active demonstration of this.
A member of the Debian community required information in relation to an
`off-topic' subject.
He received the assistance he required from other members.
Relationships are built, so the sense of community builds.
Consequently, Debian benefits.
Cheers!

Harry.

-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

[WAY OFF-TOPIC] Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[John Hasler]

Amp-hr capacity purports to be an indication of the amount of charge
(not energy) that you can put into a cell and expect to get back out
assuming defined end-point voltages.  It doesn't really work well as a
measure of the ability of a cell to store energy but we're stuck with it
for historical reasons.

Even for new cells measured amp-hr capacity is extremely sensitive to
the charge and discharge rates used.  This will vary with the size of
the cell.  For the used-up cells you are working with it will also
depend on the history of each cell.  You cannot expect any
reproducibility here.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Brian]

On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 14:56:30 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

> Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
> lot 
> of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.

Nice? Really? There was one. It failed abysmally in its task. The boys
and girls post here what they want when they want. 150+ off-topic posts
in a recent thread, ranging from comments on user behaviour to plonking
to 300 baud modems. Self-discipline abandonned.

> Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now 
> puzzling 
> over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
> flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 120 
> maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
> give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
> topic mail list.

This paragrapgh illustrates my point. Something is suggested then taken
immediately off-topic. All in the space of a single mail. There isn't
any solution. Lie back and think of Debian :).

-- 
Brian.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 06:21:30 PM Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 03:36:58PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I guess the measure of the charge (18 maHrs vs. 120 maHrs) is not the
> > charge "contained" in the battery, but instead the amount of charge
> > required to bring it up to the desired charge (presumably by voltage) --
> > my guess is the AA battery is in much better condition than the AAA
> > battery and requires less charge to bring it up to "full charge".
> > 
> > PS: s/battery/cell/g
> 
> It may also be that the AA cell can provide a greater current for a longer
> time - AAA are small:)

Yes, but maHr (milliamp hours) should be the measure of that.  More milliamp 
hours should mean that it can supply more current for longer.

(I should mention that the cells I have been testing are at, near, or beyond 
the end of their useful life -- for example, when new, the AAA cells I 
mentioned were rated at 1200 maHrs. -- the AA cells even more (2500 maHrs. for 
the one in question).  I am testing to see if any can be rejuvenated and which 
should be saved and which thrown away (well, recycled).)

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 03:36:58PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 03:26:19 PM Weaver wrote:
> > On 18-08-2021 04:56, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now
> > > puzzling over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to
> > > power an LED flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery
> > > tested to hold 120 maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can
> > > that possibly be?  (I'd give a few more details if I was actually
> > > askinjg the question on that off- topic mail list.
> > 
> >  ... and I hope another Debian-user will be able to help you.
> > Cheers!
> 
> Thanks, I think I puzzled it out ;-)
> 
> I guess the measure of the charge (18 maHrs vs. 120 maHrs) is not the charge 
> "contained" in the battery, but instead the amount of charge required to 
> bring 
> it up to the desired charge (presumably by voltage) -- my guess is the AA 
> battery is in much better condition than the AAA battery and requires less 
> charge to bring it up to "full charge".
> 
> PS: s/battery/cell/g
> 
It may also be that the AA cell can provide a greater current for a longer 
time - AAA are small:)

Andy C.

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[Terence]

I would join an off-topic list as I have seen many interesting off-topic
topics raised here over the last couple of decades (when you measure time
in decades it's probably time to go back to counting in years!).

Terence

On Tue, 17 Aug 2021 at 20:37,  wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 03:26:19 PM Weaver wrote:
> > On 18-08-2021 04:56, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now
> > > puzzling over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to
> > > power an LED flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery
> > > tested to hold 120 maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can
> > > that possibly be?  (I'd give a few more details if I was actually
> > > askinjg the question on that off- topic mail list.
> >
> >  ... and I hope another Debian-user will be able to help you.
> > Cheers!
>
> Thanks, I think I puzzled it out ;-)
>
> I guess the measure of the charge (18 maHrs vs. 120 maHrs) is not the
> charge
> "contained" in the battery, but instead the amount of charge required to
> bring
> it up to the desired charge (presumably by voltage) -- my guess is the AA
> battery is in much better condition than the AAA battery and requires less
> charge to bring it up to "full charge".
>
> PS: s/battery/cell/g
>
>

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 03:26:19 PM Weaver wrote:
> On 18-08-2021 04:56, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now
> > puzzling over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to
> > power an LED flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery
> > tested to hold 120 maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can
> > that possibly be?  (I'd give a few more details if I was actually
> > askinjg the question on that off- topic mail list.
> 
>  ... and I hope another Debian-user will be able to help you.
> Cheers!

Thanks, I think I puzzled it out ;-)

I guess the measure of the charge (18 maHrs vs. 120 maHrs) is not the charge 
"contained" in the battery, but instead the amount of charge required to bring 
it up to the desired charge (presumably by voltage) -- my guess is the AA 
battery is in much better condition than the AAA battery and requires less 
charge to bring it up to "full charge".

PS: s/battery/cell/g

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them)

[Weaver]

On 18-08-2021 04:56, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:54:34 AM SDA wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 03:01:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> > On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 08:26:34AM -0400, SDA wrote:
>> > > BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member,
>> > > but it seems has had little uptake.
>> >
>> > I looked into this the other day, because I hadn't seen reference to it
>> > for a while. It was called d-community-offtopic; it was hosted on the
>> > Alioth server, and I think its eventual demise was when Alioth was
>> > turned off in around 2018.
>> >
>> > The last non-spam message to it was, I think, in 2016. The archives are
>> > here:
>> >
>> > https://alioth-lists-archive.debian.net/pipermail/d-community-offtopic.mb
>> > ox/
>>
>> Thanks for the update Jonathan.
> 
> Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
> lot 
> of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.
> 
> Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now 
> puzzling 
> over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
> flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 120 
> maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
> give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
> topic mail list.

 ... and I hope another Debian-user will be able to help you.
Cheers!

Harry.

-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, August 17, 2021 10:54:34 AM SDA wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 03:01:43PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 08:26:34AM -0400, SDA wrote:
> > > BTW there has been an off-topic list introduced by a community member,
> > > but it seems has had little uptake.
> > 
> > I looked into this the other day, because I hadn't seen reference to it
> > for a while. It was called d-community-offtopic; it was hosted on the
> > Alioth server, and I think its eventual demise was when Alioth was
> > turned off in around 2018.
> > 
> > The last non-spam message to it was, I think, in 2016. The archives are
> > here:
> > 
> > https://alioth-lists-archive.debian.net/pipermail/d-community-offtopic.mb
> > ox/
> 
> Thanks for the update Jonathan.

Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a lot 
of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.

Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now puzzling 
over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 120 
maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
topic mail list.

Re: [Off topic thoughts] Re: debian installation issue

[Joe]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 11:41:37 +0200
 wrote:


>  "Any sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from
> stupidity"
> 
> (some call that "plausible deniability").
> 
>
"People would rather appear stupid than evil".

-- 
Joe

Re: [Off topic thoughts] Re: debian installation issue

[tomas]

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 10:46:34AM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > Secure Boot (Microsoft's attempt to stop you from using Linux)
> 
> Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > While I'm not a fan of Microsoft:
> > > https://wiki.debian.org/SecureBoot#What_is_UEFI_Secure_Boot_NOT.3
> > > "Microsoft act as a Certification Authority (CA) for SB, and they will
> > > sign programs on behalf of other trusted organisations so that their
> > > programs will also run."
> 
> to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >  - do you know any other alternative CA besides Microsoft
> >  - is there any internationally legal binding of Microsoft
> 
> Actually it is the mainboard producers and possibly the CPU producers who
> decide who is in charge as CA.

:-)

Yes, I know how it (should) work. I was pointing out what the actual
effect is.

> create an independent institution which authorizes the legitimate
> boot programs which are acceptable by default.

You know I'm a fan of some bastard of Clarke's Third Law and Hanlon's
Razor. In this case, it applies nicely:

 "Any sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from stupidity"

(some call that "plausible deniability").

Now it doesn't help to whine around that "THEY" are cementing their
monopoly (again"). Well, duh. It's what they do, and I do commend
all the hacker's efforts to understand the new machinery some aliens
have dumped on our yards.

I was just toning down our nerdy "Oh, shiny, no more evil maid attacks"
enthusiasm and just refusing to let Microsoft off that hook, although
they are behaving in a halfway civilised way (the monopoly probes
might have some relation to that, who knows).

Cheers
 - t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

[Off topic thoughts] Re: debian installation issue

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > Secure Boot (Microsoft's attempt to stop you from using Linux)

Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > While I'm not a fan of Microsoft:
> > https://wiki.debian.org/SecureBoot#What_is_UEFI_Secure_Boot_NOT.3
> > "Microsoft act as a Certification Authority (CA) for SB, and they will
> > sign programs on behalf of other trusted organisations so that their
> > programs will also run."

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>  - do you know any other alternative CA besides Microsoft
>  - is there any internationally legal binding of Microsoft

Actually it is the mainboard producers and possibly the CPU producers who
decide who is in charge as CA.
Further they decide whether the firmware offers the possibility to disable
Secure Boot or to become your own CA.

  https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/take-control-your-pc-uefi-secure-boot
shows how it should be in an ideal world. Of course this is still expert's
work.

I myself would see few reason not to disable Secure Boot on my own machines
if necessary. But currently it does not even hamper kernel experiments.
(Dunno whether this is intended by Debian and kernel source code or
whether my test machine is just not as secure as its EFI pretends to be.
My experiments happen in kernel modules like sr, cdrom, isofs. Maybe a
change in the kernel's core would meet more distrust.)

I agree with Andrei POPESCU that Secure Boot is not really for the purpose
of hampering free operating systems, although it causes extra workload on
those who intend to support this boot procedure.
Secure Boot is rather the modern attempt to make systems safe against
simple hardware manipulations. The old way was to seal the USB ports by a
hot glue gun and to use security screws at the side plates of the box.

It is unfortunate that Intel and Microsoft could not bring themselves to
create an independent institution which authorizes the legitimate
boot programs which are acceptable by default.

--------
As we are already off topic:

I agree to Greg Wooledge's overview of x86 boot firmware, as far as
Debian installation is concerned.

I have some nitpicking on technical details, though, which i did not post
because it would not be relevant to the initial topic.

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> UEFI booting requires a GPT disk label (partition table type),

No. UEFI specifies the formats of both, MBR partition table and GPT.
In both partition table types it specifies an identifier for the EFI
partition. (Type 0xEF for MBR partition table,
Type GUID C12A7328-F81F-11D2-BA4B-00A0C93EC93B for GPT.)

There exist some few UEFI firmware implementations which do not obey
the specs and ignore MBR partition tables.


> and one of the partitions on the disk must be an EFI partition.

Actually there is no UEFI implementation known which would not peek into
any recognized partition with a FAT filesystem, whether there is \EFI\BOOT
with the matching BOOT*.EFI file.
This seems to be a quirk which is protected by Microsoft Inc.

Whether a partition is used automatically for booting or whether it is
offered at all as bootable, is a matter of UEFI implementation and settings.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Slightly off-topic: anybody know of a way to keep one's Debian User List posts from failing DMARC?

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Wed, Jun 09, 2021 at 09:58:13AM -0700, James H. H. Lampert wrote:
> I'm told that the Debian List Server doesn't rewrite "From"
> headers for DMARC-enabled senders, and neither does it do anything
> else to handle DMARC-enabled senders.

Correct, so the SPF test will always fail as the list pretends to be
your domain when it sends out mail from you. But the DKIM test can
still pass, because the Debian list software does not alter the body
of your mail or any of the headers you are likely to sign with DKIM.

And indeed, your email that I am replying to was a DKIM pass and
thus would be a DMARC pass as only one of the two is needed.

Many mailing lists modify the body, e.g. to prepend tags to the
subject and/or to append a footer with list information. These
mailing lists can never pass DKIM because the mail content is
signed. Their only option if they care about a DMARC pass is to
rewrite the sender address so that their mail comes from their own
domain, then they can make SPF and DKIM pass and alter the content
as they like.

You will see many DMARC failures from such mailing lists.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Slightly off-topic: anybody know of a way to keep one's Debian User List posts from failing DMARC?

[deloptes]

James H. H. Lampert wrote:

> Please excuse the off-topic post, but I'm hoping this has come up with
> others here:
> 
> I've been tasked with implementing DMARC on our domain. And I'm told
> that the Debian List Server doesn't rewrite "From" headers for
> DMARC-enabled senders, and neither does it do anything else to handle
> DMARC-enabled senders.

Couple of years ago, when I was working with a Telco they implemented DMARC
and were thinking it will be soon very strict, but it turned out many
implemented different policies and as Dan Ritter said, it is one important
factor.
Back then (2016) I asked the Telco people (as part of the BA) how many
responses (mails with statistics) they would expect from the peers - they
said they would expect that the major players would do DMARC - respectively
we setup a DB based on this assumption ... well the moment we turned the
collection on - the DB exploded because it was tausends of domains already
implementing DMARK with SPF and sending back the statistics.

Re: Slightly off-topic: anybody know of a way to keep one's Debian User List posts from failing DMARC?

[Dan Ritter]

James H. H. Lampert wrote: 
> Please excuse the off-topic post, but I'm hoping this has come up with
> others here:
> 
> I've been tasked with implementing DMARC on our domain. And I'm told that
> the Debian List Server doesn't rewrite "From" headers for DMARC-enabled
> senders, and neither does it do anything else to handle DMARC-enabled
> senders.

DMARC is one of many factors your mail servers need to consider
when deciding whether to accept, bounce or silently drop a piece
of mail.

It is perfectly reasonable to set DMARC as a strong but not
overwhelming factor, and then to write allow lists based on,
for example:

List-Id: 

which is a pretty good representation that this is Debian mail.

So good, in fact, that RFC2919
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2919

suggests it.

-dsr-

Slightly off-topic: anybody know of a way to keep one's Debian User List posts from failing DMARC?

[James H. H. Lampert]

Please excuse the off-topic post, but I'm hoping this has come up with 
others here:


I've been tasked with implementing DMARC on our domain. And I'm told 
that the Debian List Server doesn't rewrite "From" headers for 
DMARC-enabled senders, and neither does it do anything else to handle 
DMARC-enabled senders.


--
James H. H. Lampert
Touchtone Corporation

Re: [Off topic] videos of german state TV, was Re: HTML syntax.

[deloptes]

Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> I agree that it is not people-friendly to try preventing the use of a
> video after it was depublicated by state TV. The concept of Depublication
> is technically an unrealistic fiction and also a blow to the payers of
> state TV fees ("Rundfunkgebuehren").
> 
> Given the german judicial principles, the owner (ZDF, as of Michael
> Lange's report here) is obliged to use all reasonable means to enforce its
> legally obliged decision to depublicate the video. So i assume they use
> their copyright claim towards Youtube and others as tool to show this
> reasonable effort.
> 
> I see no indication that the content of the video was the reason for its
> depublication. Such content driven depublication happens from time to
> time, but not silently. Usually it rather enhances the public impact of
> the disliked message.

I understand the general part and partially agree - though it is disputable
if such lows ("Rundfunkgebuehren") are contemporary.
For this specific documentary I do not know, because there are many other
documentaries on YT that are still available.
It is very hard to not slip into conspiracy because even in the documentary
they say that the studies performed by the French Government, VW and Audi
showed that such vehicles become green after 20km and that the media
refused to publish the studies, because it is damageing the image of EVs.

Anyway - I was trying to not download any video I like, but just to bookmark
the link to the video. This story here emerged from the sneaking
dictatorship of big corporations and governments and went off line.

There is definitely less freedom than in 2007. There is more spying,
censorship and aggression from left and right.

As for the HTML5 it is obviously hard to make a parser (there are roughly 2
engines that can handle HTML5 well) so there is also less freedom here.

Hence my conclusion that we enter middle/dark ages of modern world

Re: [Off topic] videos of german state TV, was Re: HTML syntax.

[Joe]

On Wed, 05 May 2021 09:51:59 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt"  wrote:


> 
> But i really do not see any such censoring with the video about
> environmental problems with electrical cars. It was aired and then
> available for two months. Business as good or bad as ever.
> 

Even the WEF are fairly upfront about it:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/03/the-dirty-secret-of-electric-vehicles/

-- 
Joe

Re: [Off topic] videos of german state TV, was Re: HTML syntax.

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote:
> > the song "Meine Oma ist 'ne alte Umweltsau" (= "My granny is an old
> > environmental hog"), sung by a children choir

Michael Lange wrote:
> Still seems to be available on yt, though.

Legally it could now be "Zeitgeschichte" (= "contemporary history") and
thus be exempted from the obligation to depublish it.
But since WDR as the copyright owner retracted it, it rather could be due
to the technical unfeasability of depublication.

My best theory is that they have a good media consultant who told them
that any publicly visible attention to this song would start a new wave
of ridiculing the wobbly backbone of WDR.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [Off topic] videos of german state TV, was Re: HTML syntax.

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote:
> > i really do not see any such censoring with the video about
> > environmental problems with electrical cars.

deloptes wrote:
> But it was on youtube and was removed and I could not find it

I agree that it is not people-friendly to try preventing the use of a video
after it was depublicated by state TV. The concept of Depublication is
technically an unrealistic fiction and also a blow to the payers of state TV
fees ("Rundfunkgebuehren").

Given the german judicial principles, the owner (ZDF, as of Michael Lange's
report here) is obliged to use all reasonable means to enforce its legally
obliged decision to depublicate the video. So i assume they use their
copyright claim towards Youtube and others as tool to show this reasonable
effort.

I see no indication that the content of the video was the reason for its
depublication. Such content driven depublication happens from time to
time, but not silently. Usually it rather enhances the public impact of the
disliked message.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [Off topic] videos of german state TV, was Re: HTML syntax.

[Michael Lange]

Hi,

On Wed, 05 May 2021 09:51:59 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt"  wrote:

(...)
> The reason for not eternally offering videos for download is in the
> legal framework of german state TV. (In german:
> "Rundfunkstaatsvertrag", now "Medienstaatsvertrag".)
> 
> State run TV collects mandatory fees from all households for the purpose
> of broadcasting radio and TV. When the internet became important for
> publishing, the private german newspaper publishers and TV stations
> objected that the state run TV used those fees for financing a strong
> web appearance. The compromise, which is now law, was the rule that
> videos and audio are publicly available only for a limited time.
>   
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96ffentlich-rechtlicher_Rundfunk#Engagement_im_Internet
>   https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depublizieren
> 

I know, but that does not really explain why they bother to block
third-party uploads on yt, there are lots of material there hwre they
apparently don't care, like these two quickly collected examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhGC1O0gZNI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnH10TfhkOQ

> We had cases of self-censoring which led to depublication. I remember
> the song "Meine Oma ist 'ne alte Umweltsau" (= "My granny is an old
> environmental hog"), sung by a children choir and produced by TV station
> WDR in 2019. That video was retracted after conservative politicians
> complained about the insult towards their main voter group.
>   https://www.sueddeutsche.de/medien/wdr-umweltsau-kinderchor-satire-1.4738637

Yeah, I remember that one, and particularly its aftermath; is there an
English word for "Realsatire"? Priceless! :-)

Still seems to be available on yt, though.

> 
> But i really do not see any such censoring with the video about
> environmental problems with electrical cars. It was aired and then
> available for two months. Business as good or bad as ever.

Sure, I agree about that. For some reason they care enough to make yt
block the video for Germany, but that has nothing to do with
"censorship". It think it might even be possible that they found enough
factual errors in the film that they prefer to withdraw it.

Regards

Michael

.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

Vulcans never bluff.
-- Spock, "The Doomsday Machine", stardate 4202.1

Re: [Off topic] videos of german state TV, was Re: HTML syntax.

[deloptes]

Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> We had cases of self-censoring which led to depublication. I remember
> the song "Meine Oma ist 'ne alte Umweltsau" (= "My granny is an old
> environmental hog"), sung by a children choir and produced by TV station
> WDR in 2019. That video was retracted after conservative politicians
> complained about the insult towards their main voter group.
>
https://www.sueddeutsche.de/medien/wdr-umweltsau-kinderchor-satire-1.4738637
> 
> But i really do not see any such censoring with the video about
> environmental problems with electrical cars. It was aired and then
> available for two months. Business as good or bad as ever.

But it was on youtube and was removed and I could not find it

Re: [Off topic] videos of german state TV, was Re: HTML syntax.

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Michael Lange wrote:
> Oddly, it seems like the German public TV station ZDF blocked the video
> for Germany due to "intellectual property rights" which are not explained
> any further.

The reason for not eternally offering videos for download is in the legal
framework of german state TV. (In german: "Rundfunkstaatsvertrag", now
"Medienstaatsvertrag".)

State run TV collects mandatory fees from all households for the purpose
of broadcasting radio and TV. When the internet became important for
publishing, the private german newspaper publishers and TV stations
objected that the state run TV used those fees for financing a strong
web appearance. The compromise, which is now law, was the rule that
videos and audio are publicly available only for a limited time.
  
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96ffentlich-rechtlicher_Rundfunk#Engagement_im_Internet
  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depublizieren

We had cases of self-censoring which led to depublication. I remember
the song "Meine Oma ist 'ne alte Umweltsau" (= "My granny is an old
environmental hog"), sung by a children choir and produced by TV station
WDR in 2019. That video was retracted after conservative politicians
complained about the insult towards their main voter group.
  https://www.sueddeutsche.de/medien/wdr-umweltsau-kinderchor-satire-1.4738637

But i really do not see any such censoring with the video about
environmental problems with electrical cars. It was aired and then
available for two months. Business as good or bad as ever.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [Off topic] videos of german state TV, was Re: HTML syntax.

[Michael Lange]

Hi,

On Wed, 05 May 2021 09:16:55 +0200
deloptes  wrote:

> Michael Lange wrote:
> 
> > now I got curious too.
> > Oddly, it seems like the German public TV station ZDF blocked the
> > video for Germany due to "intellectual property rights" which are not
> > explained any further. Maybe the real copyright holders still hope to
> > earn money by somehow selling their documentary to the audience.
> 
> You are saying you can not open the link (may be better to say watch the
> video) in Germany?!
> But this is not ZDF video - it is ARTE documentary. 
> Please share information. I am sitting in Austria and I can watch and I
> am downloading right now.
> 

as I said, it is blocked in Germany, and according to what yt says it
looks like ZDF holds copyrights for Germany.
My guess is that the film was produced by some third party and the German
copyrights were purchased by ZDF and then passed on to Arte (it is not
unusual that ZDF produced material is actually shown on Arte, there is
obviously some sort of cooperation between those two). Maybe it was even
some sort of international co-production. Personally I don't care enough
to further investigate, you can certainly see the details during the
closing credits.
But all this is really far off-topic here, so i guess this discussion
should better come to an end.
I hope you enjoy the film!

Regards

Michael


.-.. .. ...- .   .-.. --- -. --.   .- -. -..   .--. .-. --- ... .--. . .-.

There is a multi-legged creature crawling on your shoulder.
-- Spock, "A Taste of Armageddon", stardate 3193.9

Re: [Off topic] videos of german state TV, was Re: HTML syntax.

[deloptes]

Michael Lange wrote:

> now I got curious too.
> Oddly, it seems like the German public TV station ZDF blocked the video
> for Germany due to "intellectual property rights" which are not explained
> any further. Maybe the real copyright holders still hope to earn money by
> somehow selling their documentary to the audience.

You are saying you can not open the link (may be better to say watch the
video) in Germany?!
But this is not ZDF video - it is ARTE documentary. 
Please share information. I am sitting in Austria and I can watch and I am
downloading right now.