Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 01 April 2017 21:23:21 Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
> On 4/1/17, cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz  wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 03:33:08PM +, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> >> In all this talk of Debian being the universal operating system, and
> >> helping
> >> newbies ...
> >
> > I'm not sure those two concepts are related. My understanding of Debian
> > being the universal operating system is that it can run on as many
> > hardware platforms as possible, not that it is universally accessible by
> > all and sundry, although I guess if that also occurs then it's an added
> > bonus. :)
>
> They *are* working on Debian *usability*... VERY actively:
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-accessibility/
>
> :)
>
> Cindy :)

Accessibility generally means for disabled people, not newbies.  It is a 
different thing.

Lisi

Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 4/1/17, cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz  wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 03:33:08PM +, Lisi Reisz wrote:
>>
>> In all this talk of Debian being the universal operating system, and
>> helping
>> newbies ...
>
> I'm not sure those two concepts are related. My understanding of Debian
> being the universal operating system is that it can run on as many
> hardware platforms as possible, not that it is universally accessible by
> all and sundry, although I guess if that also occurs then it's an added
> bonus. :)


They *are* working on Debian *usability*... VERY actively:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-accessibility/

:)

Cindy :)

-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 01 April 2017 18:59:48 cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 03:33:08PM +, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > In all this talk of Debian being the universal operating system, and
> > helping newbies ...
>
> I'm not sure those two concepts are related. My understanding of Debian
> being the universal operating system is that it can run on as many
> hardware platforms as possible, not that it is universally accessible by
> all and sundry, although I guess if that also occurs then it's an added
> bonus. :)

I agree with you.  But I was being told that that view is elitist, in a world 
in which elite is a very pejorative word.

Lisi

Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[cbannister]

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 03:33:08PM +, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> 
> In all this talk of Debian being the universal operating system, and helping 
> newbies ...

I'm not sure those two concepts are related. My understanding of Debian
being the universal operating system is that it can run on as many
hardware platforms as possible, not that it is universally accessible by
all and sundry, although I guess if that also occurs then it's an added
bonus. :)

-- 
The media's the most powerful entity on earth. 
They have the power to make the innocent guilty 
and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power.
 -- Malcolm X

Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[Steve McIntyre]

Lisi Reisz wrote:
>On Wednesday 22 March 2017 17:26:56 Richard Owlett wrote:
>>
>> I had a "Live 8.6 MATE" DVD next to me.
>> I had a minor glitch and a possibly significant problem.
>> The minor glitch was when launching the installer it needed a password.
>> Having seen that problem reported before, entering "live" got it going.
>>
>Interesting.  I wonder whether that would apply to all the mainstream Live 
>CDs, or just the Mate one?  I think they may be very individual.  I know the 
>Trinity unofficial one was, until it became the Devuan one anyway.  But it 
>installed OK, ran well both live and installed, and told you what password to 
>use in the accompanying documentation.

There have been significant issues with running the installer from a
live system in the past, and unfortunately a lack of volunteer time to
fix the manifold bugs found. I'd still very much recommend using a d-i
(netinst/DVD/whatever) image for installation in preference - you're
much less likely to hit random edge cases that way.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
< liw> everything I know about UK hotels I learned from "Fawlty Towers"

Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 22 March 2017 17:26:56 Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/22/2017 10:33 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Wednesday 22 March 2017 14:53:24 Richard Owlett wrote:
> >> On 03/22/2017 09:28 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday 22 March 2017 14:05:28 Richard Owlett wrote:
>  The results of the 6 installs I intended to run:
>  [the only variable being which DE related boxes checked]
>  [space used reported by gparted]
> 1. None
>    CLI installed taking ~.92 GB
> 2. Only top entry checked (asking for unspecified desktop)
>    Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
> 3. Top entry *and* Gnome checked
>    Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
> 4. Top entry *and* MATE checked
>    MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
> 5. Gnome only checked
>    Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
> 6. MATE only checked
>    MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
>  Tests 1-6 were run were run from a flash drive copy of DVD1.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks, Richard.  And are you able to confirm that, by default, the top
> >>> entry is checked, and you have to  uncheck it to achieve option 1?
> >>
> >> That is correct.
> >>
> >> HOWEVER that line of thought is why I included my 1st paragraph on the
> >> "educational" problems encountered.
> >> 
> >> My "educational" failure was in attempting to create a preseed.cfg file
> >> so the tests would require minimal hands on attention. I wanted the
> >> tasksel screen to appear. I did not succeed. Instead the installer went
> >> on its merry way installing Gnome in ~3.67 (not the ~3.59 GB of other
> >> runs). 
> >>
> >> I've never used netinst and don't know if my failed preseed.cfg might
> >> resemble it.
> >
> > Thank you.  I prefer facts to alternative facts or guesses!  I must play
> > around with net install when I have got both time and a suitable
> > platform!
> >
> > In all this talk of Debian being the universal operating system, and
> > helping newbies, no mention has been made of the Live CD installation
> > method, which I should have though was ideal for those who want their
> > hands held.  That perception may be false, but is why I barely go near
> > it!  I use Knoppix when I want a Live CD and the net install disk when I
> > want to install Debian.
>
> I had a "Live 8.6 MATE" DVD next to me.
> I had a minor glitch and a possibly significant problem.
> The minor glitch was when launching the installer it needed a password.
> Having seen that problem reported before, entering "live" got it going.
>
> The possibly significant problem was inability to install grub.
> I say "possibly significant" because my test machine and installation
> routines have a few oddities.
>
> I manually partitioned *AND* defeated using a swap partition as it would
> have changed the UUID of my swap partition thus messing up my exiting
> installs (have 3 active at the moment).
>
> Not installing grub was no problem for me as I don't install it anyway,
> choosing to run update-grub under control of the install on /dev/sda1.

Interesting.  I wonder whether that would apply to all the mainstream Live 
CDs, or just the Mate one?  I think they may be very individual.  I know the 
Trinity unofficial one was, until it became the Devuan one anyway.  But it 
installed OK, ran well both live and installed, and told you what password to 
use in the accompanying documentation.

Now that I think one could criticise, since it should actually run.  If Martin 
Wimpress ever actually turns up to a meeting, instead of saying that he is 
hoping to come, I shall tell him so!!

Thanks again.

Lisi

Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/22/2017 10:33 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Wednesday 22 March 2017 14:53:24 Richard Owlett wrote:

On 03/22/2017 09:28 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Wednesday 22 March 2017 14:05:28 Richard Owlett wrote:

The results of the 6 installs I intended to run:
[the only variable being which DE related boxes checked]
[space used reported by gparted]
   1. None
  CLI installed taking ~.92 GB
   2. Only top entry checked (asking for unspecified desktop)
  Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
   3. Top entry *and* Gnome checked
  Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
   4. Top entry *and* MATE checked
  MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
   5. Gnome only checked
  Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
   6. MATE only checked
  MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
Tests 1-6 were run were run from a flash drive copy of DVD1.


Thanks, Richard.  And are you able to confirm that, by default, the top
entry is checked, and you have to  uncheck it to achieve option 1?


That is correct.

HOWEVER that line of thought is why I included my 1st paragraph on the
"educational" problems encountered.

My "educational" failure was in attempting to create a preseed.cfg file
so the tests would require minimal hands on attention. I wanted the
tasksel screen to appear. I did not succeed. Instead the installer went
on its merry way installing Gnome in ~3.67 (not the ~3.59 GB of other
runs). 

I've never used netinst and don't know if my failed preseed.cfg might
resemble it.


Thank you.  I prefer facts to alternative facts or guesses!  I must play
around with net install when I have got both time and a suitable platform!

In all this talk of Debian being the universal operating system, and helping
newbies, no mention has been made of the Live CD installation method, which I
should have though was ideal for those who want their hands held.  That
perception may be false, but is why I barely go near it!  I use Knoppix when
I want a Live CD and the net install disk when I want to install Debian.



I had a "Live 8.6 MATE" DVD next to me.
I had a minor glitch and a possibly significant problem.
The minor glitch was when launching the installer it needed a password.
Having seen that problem reported before, entering "live" got it going.

The possibly significant problem was inability to install grub.
I say "possibly significant" because my test machine and installation 
routines have a few oddities.


I manually partitioned *AND* defeated using a swap partition as it would 
have changed the UUID of my swap partition thus messing up my exiting 
installs (have 3 active at the moment).


Not installing grub was no problem for me as I don't install it anyway, 
choosing to run update-grub under control of the install on /dev/sda1.

Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 22 March 2017 14:53:24 Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/22/2017 09:28 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Wednesday 22 March 2017 14:05:28 Richard Owlett wrote:
> >> The results of the 6 installs I intended to run:
> >> [the only variable being which DE related boxes checked]
> >> [space used reported by gparted]
> >>1. None
> >>   CLI installed taking ~.92 GB
> >>2. Only top entry checked (asking for unspecified desktop)
> >>   Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
> >>3. Top entry *and* Gnome checked
> >>   Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
> >>4. Top entry *and* MATE checked
> >>   MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
> >>5. Gnome only checked
> >>   Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
> >>6. MATE only checked
> >>   MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
> >> Tests 1-6 were run were run from a flash drive copy of DVD1.
> >
> > Thanks, Richard.  And are you able to confirm that, by default, the top
> > entry is checked, and you have to  uncheck it to achieve option 1?
>
> That is correct.
>
> HOWEVER that line of thought is why I included my 1st paragraph on the
> "educational" problems encountered.
> 
> My "educational" failure was in attempting to create a preseed.cfg file
> so the tests would require minimal hands on attention. I wanted the
> tasksel screen to appear. I did not succeed. Instead the installer went
> on its merry way installing Gnome in ~3.67 (not the ~3.59 GB of other
> runs). 
>
> I've never used netinst and don't know if my failed preseed.cfg might
> resemble it.

Thank you.  I prefer facts to alternative facts or guesses!  I must play 
around with net install when I have got both time and a suitable platform!

In all this talk of Debian being the universal operating system, and helping 
newbies, no mention has been made of the Live CD installation method, which I 
should have though was ideal for those who want their hands held.  That 
perception may be false, but is why I barely go near it!  I use Knoppix when 
I want a Live CD and the net install disk when I want to install Debian.

Lisi

Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/22/2017 09:28 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Wednesday 22 March 2017 14:05:28 Richard Owlett wrote:

The results of the 6 installs I intended to run:
[the only variable being which DE related boxes checked]
[space used reported by gparted]
   1. None
  CLI installed taking ~.92 GB
   2. Only top entry checked (asking for unspecified desktop)
  Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
   3. Top entry *and* Gnome checked
  Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
   4. Top entry *and* MATE checked
  MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
   5. Gnome only checked
  Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
   6. MATE only checked
  MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
Tests 1-6 were run were run from a flash drive copy of DVD1.


Thanks, Richard.  And are you able to confirm that, by default, the top entry
is checked, and you have to  uncheck it to achieve option 1?



That is correct.

HOWEVER that line of thought is why I included my 1st paragraph on the 
"educational" problems encountered.


My "educational" failure was in attempting to create a preseed.cfg file 
so the tests would require minimal hands on attention. I wanted the 
tasksel screen to appear. I did not succeed. Instead the installer went 
on its merry way installing Gnome in ~3.67 (not the ~3.59 GB of other runs).



I've never used netinst and don't know if my failed preseed.cfg might 
resemble it.

Re: [TEST RUNS] Re: installer defaults for desktops (was Re: Suggested edit)

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 22 March 2017 14:05:28 Richard Owlett wrote:
> The results of the 6 installs I intended to run:
> [the only variable being which DE related boxes checked]
> [space used reported by gparted]
>    1. None
>       CLI installed taking ~.92 GB
>    2. Only top entry checked (asking for unspecified desktop)
>       Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
>    3. Top entry *and* Gnome checked
>       Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
>    4. Top entry *and* MATE checked
>       MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
>    5. Gnome only checked
>       Gnome installed taking ~3.59 GB
>    6. MATE only checked
>       MATE installed taking ~2.65 GB
> Tests 1-6 were run were run from a flash drive copy of DVD1.

Thanks, Richard.  And are you able to confirm that, by default, the top entry 
is checked, and you have to  uncheck it to achieve option 1?

Lisi