Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 8/13/23 13:59, Celejar wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 16:20:00 +0300
Reco  wrote:


Hi.

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 08:04:38AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 05:58:07AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname


This is wrong.



But I didn't put them there, the armbian/jammy install iso did.


You're correct, but for the wrong reason.


I don't know where you got it from, but "mymachines"
and "myhostname" are not valid entries in this file.


On the contrary.

apt show libnss-myhostname libnss-mymachines

Interesting if I knew the why and what:
Package: libnss-myhostname
Version: 249.11-0ubuntu3.9
Priority: extra
Section: universe/admin
Source: systemd
Origin: Ubuntu
Maintainer: Ubuntu Developers 
Original-Maintainer: Debian systemd Maintainers 


Bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug
Installed-Size: 316 kB
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.34)
Homepage: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd
Task: ubuntu-budgie-desktop, ubuntu-budgie-desktop-raspi
Download-Size: 53.4 kB
APT-Manual-Installed: yes
APT-Sources: http://ports.ubuntu.com jammy-updates/universe arm64 Packages
Description: nss module providing fallback resolution for the current 
hostname


Package: libnss-mymachines
Version: 249.11-0ubuntu3.9
Priority: extra
Section: admin
Source: systemd
Origin: Ubuntu
Maintainer: Ubuntu Developers 
Original-Maintainer: Debian systemd Maintainers 


Bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug
Installed-Size: 509 kB
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.34), libcap2 (>= 1:2.24-9~), systemd-container (= 
249.11-0ubuntu3.9)

Homepage: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd
Download-Size: 143 kB
APT-Sources: http://ports.ubuntu.com jammy-updates/main arm64 Packages
Description: nss module to resolve hostnames for local container instances

N: There are 4 additional records. Please use the '-a' switch to see them.
That -a option apparently shows older versions that have been overwritten.



Why would anyone in their sane mind willingly install those is another
question :)


libnss-mymachines is marked as automatically installed on my (Debian
Sid) system:

$ aptitude why libnss-mymachines
i   libvirt-daemon-system Dependslibvirt-daemon-system-systemd (= 
9.6.0-1) | libvirt-daemon-system-sysv (= 9.6.0-1)
i A libvirt-daemon-system-systemd Dependssystemd-container
i A systemd-container Recommends libnss-mymachines

So if one wants to run libvirt as a system service on a systemd system,
and "Recommends" are installed by default (which I would assume is a
not uncommon scenario), then one will end up with libnss-mymachines
installed.



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Celejar]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 16:20:00 +0300
Reco  wrote:

>   Hi.
> 
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 08:04:38AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 05:58:07AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > > hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname
> > 
> > This is wrong.
> 
> You're correct, but for the wrong reason.
> 
> > I don't know where you got it from, but "mymachines"
> > and "myhostname" are not valid entries in this file.
> 
> On the contrary.
> 
> apt show libnss-myhostname libnss-mymachines
> 
> Why would anyone in their sane mind willingly install those is another
> question :)

libnss-mymachines is marked as automatically installed on my (Debian
Sid) system:

$ aptitude why libnss-mymachines
i   libvirt-daemon-system Dependslibvirt-daemon-system-systemd (= 
9.6.0-1) | libvirt-daemon-system-sysv (= 9.6.0-1)
i A libvirt-daemon-system-systemd Dependssystemd-container  
   
i A systemd-container Recommends libnss-mymachines 

So if one wants to run libvirt as a system service on a systemd system,
and "Recommends" are installed by default (which I would assume is a
not uncommon scenario), then one will end up with libnss-mymachines
installed.

-- 
Celejar

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Christoph Brinkhaus]

Am Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 01:41:41PM -0500 schrieb gene heskett:

Hello Gene and Dave,,

> On 2/14/23 10:49, David Wright wrote:
> > Wisely done: we don't need it twice … and logs can be lengthy.

[...]

> Alright guys, I may have an existing system here that shows a 169, but not
> as default. Running Armbian bullseye AND xfce4, in fact I have 2 of them
> that show an ip r of:
> 
> gene@bpi54:~$ ip r
> 
> default via 192.168.71.1 dev eth0 proto static metric 100
> 169.254.0.0/16 dev eth0 scope link metric 1000
> 192.168.71.0/24 dev eth0 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.71.12 metric
> 100
> 
> Probably have 4 of them, but only two are powered ATM, and the other is busy
> running klipper and a 3d printer.
> And networking is running fine on all 4 despite its being present as it is
> not the default. And all are using xfce4, because the gnome screen blanker
> is an instant crash and burn, requiring a power down reset to recover from.
> The xfce4 blanker Just Works.
> 
> The reason you've never seen any logs etc is that if its the default. there
> is no way in hell to get you those logs or other info because there is no
> network to get it to you.  We could take screen pix, but my camera makes 5
> meg jpegs the server won't take.
> 
> So maybe we can figure out whats different about Armbian that makes it work.
> Give me some troubleshooting commands to see if we can figure out whats
> different about armbian that makes it work when there's no way in hell to
> make it work with a debian install of bullseye and going clear back at least
> to stretch, maybe further? Except nuking avahi and rebooting.
> 
> Maybe this is your chance to come up with a fix that doesn't get us a
> sermon, questioning our intelligence for doing it.

I am not sure about difference between Armbian and Debian. But I have
found  https://wiki.debian.org/Avahi with lots of information.
There is a section for what Avahi is intended, about temporary
disabling and permanent disabling. Disabling can be done without
deleting files or packages. I think we can rely on this documentation.
There should be no need for me to reproduce that by installing xfce4.

[...]

I did not meant to be offensive. Please excuse me if this was your
impression. English is not my first language.

> Take care & stay well, everybody.

My best wishes for you as well,
Christoph
-- 
Ist die Katze gesund
schmeckt sie dem Hund.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 11:49:51AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 03:07:08PM -0500, Michael Stone wrote:

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 02:33:12PM +, Tim Woodall wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, jeremy ardley wrote:
> > you can ping them as in
> >
> > ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc
> >
>
> ooh, I didn't know that worked.
>
> Same as
> ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc%eth0
>
> on my machines at least. No idea how it picks the interface when there's
> more than one.
>
> The interface seems mandatory for ssh for me:
>
> tim@einstein(4):~ (none)$ ssh fe80::1
> ssh: connect to host fe80::1 port 22: Invalid argument
> tim@einstein(4):~ (none)$

You actually have an fe80::1 IP address on your system? That would be highly
unusual. If you don't, why would you expect it to respond?


Whether it responds or not is, I think, irrelevant here. The thing
gets cut short by the -EINVAL, which stems from the missing interface
specification (well, "zone index" in IPv6 jargon). Without zone index,
an IPv6LL is (may be?) underspecified. So it would be fe80::1%eth0
or something similar.


Ok, I didn't get what you were asking. Yes, a link local address must 
have a scope (interface) associated with it, by policy. You don't need 
it with ping because it's using a lower level raw socket (but, if there 
are multiple interfaces and you didn't specify one, the packets are 
likely going out the wrong one). The reason for this is that by 
definition the addresses are specific to a link, and there's no 
mechanism (e.g., route table with a default) for the kernel to determine 
which link to use. It's possible for the same link local address to 
be present on multiple links (the addresses are only required to be 
unique per link) so it's not a generally solvable problem, and given the 
purpose of link local addresses it doesn't really need to be.


I'd missed that the OP that started this suggested otherwise. There were 
no command outputs so I don't know if it actually works on that system 
or it was a simply a failure to remember to add the scope id in the 
mail. If it does work I have no idea how, but there'd have to be 
something in the stack adding a scope. When link local addresses are 
returned by nss-mymachines or nss-mynetworks the scope is included so it 
will "just work".

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 04:24:36PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

you basically just made this up

No Michael, just recalling our interaction history, the general tone 
being to give me hell for using hosts files instead of running a dns.


I have not told you that you need to use bind instead of hosts, 
/etc/hosts is a supported mechanism that works fine, please stop 
asserting that I've said otherwise. We've already been asked to stop 
once so I will not reply further.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/15/23 13:08, Michael Stone wrote:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 09:30:57AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
True. But I'd also suggest that if you do not want to support 
/etc/hosts files name resolution methods


/etc/hosts works and has worked fine on debian for decades

I've got around 5 machines still running some version of buster because 
the python-3 is too new for linuxcnc.
Every one of them has had avahi removed by a root rm, and has some 
variation of this in an /etc/resolv.conf that is a real file, before the 
local network worked.


Something changed between buster and bullseye. And it appears from my 
testing just now, that the wintel buster has been fixed since the 
original install years ago. I just removed the +i from /etc/resolv.conf 
on one of those buster machines, commented out the
"search coyote.den, nameserver" in /etc/resolv.conf and rebooted it, and 
the local net still works. NetworkMangler might not be running as a 
reboot did not clean up resolv.conf. ISTR that was also removed by a 
root rm at the time, and I don't think its ever been re-installed. 
Whatever, htop cannot find it running.


to. Your attitude that everybody with a two machine home network 
should run a bind instance just to lookup the other machine 


you basically just made this up

No Michael, just recalling our interaction history, the general tone 
being to give me hell for using hosts files instead of running a dns.


Please demo that you can actually help someone who wants to use host 
files. It should NOT be a black art, to be denigrated at every response 
you make, to me, or to anyone else.


My prejudice against bind goes clear back to redhat-5.2 in about 2000, 
because I felt something was wrong with our q-mail server at WDTV.com, 
and rebooted it w/o a net cable before the hacker had a chance to clean 
up the logs, then it suddenly took down a large part of the internet in 
the next 2 hours. Bind was fixed in about 4 hours and I cleaned up after 
the perp. That was my intro to the black hats, and WDTV.com went to 
hosts files internally. Then the spam blew up, 1000's a day and I caught 
the net tech at our ISP as the poster, so we bought a block of 16 
addresses from a different ISP.   And with that, and finding dd-wrt a 
few days later was the end of our problems. And I've never trusted bind 
since. History as they say, is written by the winners. To a net user 
using hosts files, both avahi and network mangler are a major hindrance.


Keyword here is not "made up", its history. You've no real clue of the 
hassle those 2 default utilities have been to those of us who prefer 
hosts files for small private networks, because w/o a network to report 
them, the hassle does not get reported 98% of the time. That is the 
reality. Admit that it exists, because it sure does.


Take care & stay well, Michael.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Code of Conduct reminder [WAS Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.]

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 01:07:29PM -0500, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 09:30:57AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > True. But I'd also suggest that if you do not want to support /etc/hosts
> > files name resolution methods
> 
> /etc/hosts works and has worked fine on debian for decades
> 
> > to. Your attitude that everybody with a two machine home network should
> > run a bind instance just to lookup the other machine
> 
> you basically just made this up
>

People,

There's been a bunch of name calling, accusations of being a liar,
capital letters written in frustration ... can I respectfully suggest
that all parties end this thread here?

The Code of Conduct requests people to be postive and constructive in
criticism. This thread has sometimes fallen below this standard - can
we gracefully retire this now?

Andy Cater

[For and on behalf of the Community Team] 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 10:12:32AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

Sorry, Gene's line was actually "search hosts, nameserver".

So, "ping coyote" should have triggered name resolution for "coyote.hosts"
and/or "coyote.nameserver".

It's just barely conceivable that *something* might have created a
resolvable entry for "coyote.hosts", and that some libnss-* module might
have returned a working IP address using it.

I just don't know what that *something* could be.


Why worry about it? We'll never get the actual state of the machines 
involved and thus will never be able to do more than speculate, so why 
waste more bytes going back and forth about it, sending messages to 
thousands of people who also can't get the information necessary to do 
more than guess?

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 09:30:57AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
True. But I'd also suggest that if you do not want to support 
/etc/hosts files name resolution methods


/etc/hosts works and has worked fine on debian for decades

to. Your attitude that everybody with a two machine home network 
should run a bind instance just to lookup the other machine 


you basically just made this up

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 10:04:14AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> The part I still don't understand is how adding "search files, nameserver"
> to /etc/resolv.conf and rebooting could change the behavior of any of
> Gene's commands.

Sorry, Gene's line was actually "search hosts, nameserver".

So, "ping coyote" should have triggered name resolution for "coyote.hosts"
and/or "coyote.nameserver".

It's just barely conceivable that *something* might have created a
resolvable entry for "coyote.hosts", and that some libnss-* module might
have returned a working IP address using it.

I just don't know what that *something* could be.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 08:34:49AM -0500, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 07:30:44AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > That said, I'm curious about this part oF Gene's result:
> > 
> > > > gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
> > > > 192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
> > > > gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
> > > > fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54
> > 
> > Where does getent pull that IPv6 address from?  That's not what I get
> > when I look myself up:
> 
> probably mymachines, which is yet another new twist to add to this already
> ridiculous saga

OK, that sounds like a reasonable guess.  Here's what I've managed to
track down so far:

The Debian (and apparently Armbian) packages libnss-mymachines and
libnss-myhostname are part of systemd.

It was easier for me to find their source code than their documentation.
Source code for mymachines is at

https://salsa.debian.org/systemd-team/systemd/-/blob/debian/master/src/nss-mymachines/nss-mymachines.c

And for myhostname,

https://salsa.debian.org/systemd-team/systemd/-/blob/debian/master/src/nss-myhostname/nss-myhostname.c

I couldn't glean much from nss-mymachines.c because mostly what it seems
to do is send messages to other systemd services, and act upon the
responses.  I didn't try to track down what those other services do.

By going to packages.debian.org and looking at the package lists for
these things, I was able to learn what the man pages are called.

https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/libnss-myhostname/nss-myhostname.8.en.html

https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/libnss-mymachines/nss-mymachines.8.en.html

I can't imagine how an end user is supposed to guess that the man page
is named after the source code's *.c filename, rather than the package
name, or the package name without "libnss-".  I guess that if you actually
had these things *installed* you could track them down with "man -k" or
"apropos" or "dpkg -L libnss-myhostname | grep man" or something, but I
don't have them installed, so those options are closed off for me.

Anyway, based on those man pages, I concur that it's quite likely Gene's
answer to "getent hosts bpi54" came from libnss-myhostname.

=

The part I still don't understand is how adding "search files, nameserver"
to /etc/resolv.conf and rebooting could change the behavior of any of
Gene's commands.

In my own testing, it appears that the comma is ignored.  When I put

search wooledge.org, gene

in mine, it acts as if I had put

search wooledge.org gene

which is pretty reasonable, I suppose.  So, we can reduce Gene's line to:

search files nameserver

which should mean that when Gene types "ping coyote", and "coyote" is not
present in /etc/hosts, name resolution should look for "coyote.files"
and "coyote.nameserver" before giving up.

The surprising part is that apparently one of these names *works*.  Maybe?
I don't know if we ever saw the output of "ping coyote" on Gene's
machine when it was in the "working" state.

If one of the nss-my* modules is creating resolvable entries for one of
those names, it would explain the behavior Gene is seeing.  But I can't
find anything in the documentation to indicate they would do that.

So, I'm still rather confused.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/15/23 09:20, Charles Curley wrote:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 07:57:09 -0500
gene heskett  wrote:


192.168.71.4sixty40.coyote.den  sixty40
192.168.71.7vna.coyote.deb  vna


I think you have a typo in the line for vna.

Correct, Charles, but that machine died 2 or 3 years ago and has been 
replaced by a $3500 Siglent about a year back. That one can do its thing 
of drawing a smith chart on an AM broadcast tower in essentially real 
time. The older one took an hour or more to fiddle with.


That is one of broadcastings black arts.  Might be 10 guys in the 
country that can do that, and I am one of them.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/15/23 08:41, Michael Stone wrote:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 07:57:09AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
And this disclosed that I had not properly added coyote.coyote.den to 
the /etc/hosts file on that machine. That mistake, fixed, now makes 
the local net pingable. The rest of it, whats powered up, was/is all 
pingable. It just wasn't tried. This machine is generally the master, 
and when I couldn't ping it, I assumed none of the local stuff worked.


Checking that on some of my other machines disclosed that something 
besides me is mucking with the /etc/hosts on some, but not all, of the 
other machines. And its something I'll have to fix from the machines 
own keyboard because my /sshnet/localname network doesn't allow root 
logins. The /etc/hosts file on go704 has been stripped to just itself! 
Fixed and chattr +i added to it now.


So you've finally figured out that what you told us is wrong, but you're 
doubling down on baroque workarounds that will make it even harder to 
figure out what's actually happening. And presumably, you'll be loudly 
announcing to other users that the only solution is to do ridiculous 
things like chattr +i random files, confusing future users who find this 
stuff via google and don't realize that you only got halfway to figuring 
out what was going on before announcing what the "proper" fix was. 
That's the frustrating part: you can do whatever you want with your own 
system and it doesn't really matter to anyone else, but we're going to 
keep reading wrong information proclaimed loudly and often--which does 
potentially affect others.


And I'm pretty sure I put it in there correctly when I installed 
armbian on it.


Occam suggests otherwise.

True. But I'd also suggest that if you do not want to support /etc/hosts 
files name resolution methods, choose another msg to reply to. Your 
attitude that everybody with a two machine home network should run a 
bind instance just to lookup the other machine is a huge waste of 
resources to do a job that a home network occupying all non-routable 
addresses is best served by a hosts file, is tiresome at best. Your 
insistance that a dns is the one true way, adding the complexity of bind 
to every machine on the planet makes little sense in this camp.  There 
are ways to do local name resolution that do not involve running even a 
lookalike to bind.


But you probably will not admit that on a public list.

Take care & stay well, Michael.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 07:57:09 -0500
gene heskett  wrote:

> 192.168.71.4  sixty40.coyote.den  sixty40
> 192.168.71.7  vna.coyote.deb  vna

I think you have a typo in the line for vna.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 03:46:21PM +0300, Reco wrote:

libnss-myhostname does that.
Why it chooses ipv6 link-local over ipv4 static IP is another question.


perhaps because ipv6 is preferred and there is no public ip6. it doesn't 
really matter because normal users won't notice or care whether it's 
ipv6 or ipv4.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 07:57:09AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
And this disclosed that I had not properly added coyote.coyote.den to 
the /etc/hosts file on that machine. That mistake, fixed, now makes 
the local net pingable. The rest of it, whats powered up, was/is all 
pingable. It just wasn't tried. This machine is generally the master, 
and when I couldn't ping it, I assumed none of the local stuff worked.


Checking that on some of my other machines disclosed that something 
besides me is mucking with the /etc/hosts on some, but not all, of the 
other machines. And its something I'll have to fix from the machines 
own keyboard because my /sshnet/localname network doesn't allow root 
logins. The /etc/hosts file on go704 has been stripped to just itself! 
Fixed and chattr +i added to it now.


So you've finally figured out that what you told us is wrong, but you're 
doubling down on baroque workarounds that will make it even harder 
to figure out what's actually happening. And presumably, you'll be 
loudly announcing to other users that the only solution is to do 
ridiculous things like chattr +i random files, confusing future users 
who find this stuff via google and don't realize that you only got 
halfway to figuring out what was going on before announcing what the 
"proper" fix was. That's the frustrating part: you can do whatever you 
want with your own system and it doesn't really matter to anyone else, 
but we're going to keep reading wrong information proclaimed loudly and 
often--which does potentially affect others.


And I'm pretty sure I put it in there correctly when I installed 
armbian on it.


Occam suggests otherwise.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 07:30:44AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

That said, I'm curious about this part oF Gene's result:


> gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
> 192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
> gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
> fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54


Where does getent pull that IPv6 address from?  That's not what I get
when I look myself up:


probably mymachines, which is yet another new twist to add to this 
already ridiculous saga

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/15/23 07:31, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 08:30:08AM +0100, Michel Verdier wrote:

Le 15 février 2023 gene heskett a écrit :


gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54
gene@bpi54:~$ ping -c1 coyote (this machines alias in /etc/hosts)
ping: coyote: Name or service not known


If coyote is really an alias and not part of domain name give us
grep -i coyote /etc/hosts

For what you show bpi54 is the short hostname so you need to do
ping -c1 bpi54
and not
ping -c1 coyote


bpi54 is the machine where Gene is issuing the commands.  What we
need to see is bpi54 failing to ping some OTHER machine on his local
network.  I don't know whether "coyote" is such a machine, but if it
is then I would have expected to see something like:

gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i coyote /etc/hosts
192.168.71.11   coyote.coyote.den   coyote

Which is the case with coyote, its this machines hostname, alias, and 
part of the domain name.


Why? Done in homeage to a now long gone smartest dog I ever met, a bitch 
that was half coyote. Named Lady by the folks I was working for as a 2nd 
job in the 1970's as the bench tech at Norfolk 2-way radio. You could 
ask her how much is 2 and 3 ( or some other pair of single digit 
numbers) and she would bark the number of the answer times. I've never 
met another "dog" that could do that.



followed by a whole bunch of other lines that are false hits, because
for some reason Gene used "coyote" as both a local hostname *and* part
of his local domain name.


correct.


Surely there must be some machine on Gene's network which is in the
/etc/hosts file on bpi54, and which is not named "coyote" or "den".
That's what we want to see.

As I said before, it doesn't even have to be a machine that works and
responds to pings.  It could be a printer that he used in 2003 and no
longer exists, but is still in the /etc/hosts file.  Anything.

That said, I'm curious about this part oF Gene's result:


gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54


Where does getent pull that IPv6 address from?  That's not what I get
when I look myself up:

unicorn:~$ grep -i unicorn /etc/hosts
127.0.1.1   unicorn.wooledge.orgunicorn
unicorn:~$ getent hosts unicorn
127.0.1.1   unicorn.wooledge.org unicorn

I don't understand Gene's result.


Neither do I.


Oh, and one last thing that popped into my head this morning: name
service caching daemons.  Is it possible that Gene is running nscd or
something like it, and that this is influencing his results?  It might
explain why he felt a need to reboot after changing something.

How would I test that?


.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Reco]

Hi.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 07:30:44AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> That said, I'm curious about this part oF Gene's result:
> 
> > > gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
> > > 192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
> > > gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
> > > fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54
> 
> Where does getent pull that IPv6 address from?

libnss-myhostname does that.
Why it chooses ipv6 link-local over ipv4 static IP is another question.

Much better question is - what exactly one should put into /etc/hosts so
that it would be completely ignored? 


> That's not what I get when I look myself up:

Maybe because *your* /etc/hosts is not malformed?

Reco

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/15/23 02:30, Michel Verdier wrote:

Le 15 février 2023 gene heskett a écrit :


gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54
gene@bpi54:~$ ping -c1 coyote (this machines alias in /etc/hosts)
ping: coyote: Name or service not known


If coyote is really an alias and not part of domain name give us
grep -i coyote /etc/hosts


gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i coyote /etc/hosts
192.168.71.1router.coyote.den   router
192.168.71.4sixty40.coyote.den  sixty40
192.168.71.7vna.coyote.deb  vna
192.168.71.8rock64v2.coyote.den rocj64v2 ender5plus
192.168.71.9bpi51.coyote.denbpi51
192.168.71.10   go704.coyote.dengo704
192.168.71.11   bpi53.coyote.denbpi53
192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
192.168.71.13   rpi4.coyote.den rpi4
192.168.71.21   scanner.coyote.den  scanner
192.168.71.22   rock64.coyote.den   rock64
192.168.71.23   bpi52.coyote.denbpi52
192.168.71.25   tlm.coyote.den  tlm
192.168.71.50   dddprint.coyote.den dddprint

And this disclosed that I had not properly added coyote.coyote.den to 
the /etc/hosts file on that machine. That mistake, fixed, now makes the 
local net pingable. The rest of it, whats powered up, was/is all 
pingable. It just wasn't tried. This machine is generally the master, 
and when I couldn't ping it, I assumed none of the local stuff worked.


Checking that on some of my other machines disclosed that something 
besides me is mucking with the /etc/hosts on some, but not all, of the 
other machines. And its something I'll have to fix from the machines own 
keyboard because my /sshnet/localname network doesn't allow root logins. 
The /etc/hosts file on go704 has been stripped to just itself! Fixed and 
chattr +i added to it now.


So, I've some repair work to do, and some sudo chattr +i's to apply to 
/etc/hosts. The real question is who, besides me as sudo, has rights to 
edit /etc/hosts?



For what you show bpi54 is the short hostname so you need to do
ping -c1 bpi54

which worked

and not
ping -c1 coyote

which didn't because it was missing from the hosts file!

And I'm pretty sure I put it in there correctly when I installed armbian 
on it.


I'll own the mistake, my apologies to all. I thank you for the impetus 
to check, assuming it was as I put it when installing the machine.


Take care and stay well all.


.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 08:30:08AM +0100, Michel Verdier wrote:
> Le 15 février 2023 gene heskett a écrit :
> 
> > gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
> > 192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
> > gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
> > fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54
> > gene@bpi54:~$ ping -c1 coyote (this machines alias in /etc/hosts)
> > ping: coyote: Name or service not known
> 
> If coyote is really an alias and not part of domain name give us
> grep -i coyote /etc/hosts
> 
> For what you show bpi54 is the short hostname so you need to do
> ping -c1 bpi54
> and not
> ping -c1 coyote

bpi54 is the machine where Gene is issuing the commands.  What we
need to see is bpi54 failing to ping some OTHER machine on his local
network.  I don't know whether "coyote" is such a machine, but if it
is then I would have expected to see something like:

gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i coyote /etc/hosts
192.168.71.11   coyote.coyote.den   coyote

followed by a whole bunch of other lines that are false hits, because
for some reason Gene used "coyote" as both a local hostname *and* part
of his local domain name.

Surely there must be some machine on Gene's network which is in the
/etc/hosts file on bpi54, and which is not named "coyote" or "den".
That's what we want to see.

As I said before, it doesn't even have to be a machine that works and
responds to pings.  It could be a printer that he used in 2003 and no
longer exists, but is still in the /etc/hosts file.  Anything.

That said, I'm curious about this part oF Gene's result:

> > gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
> > 192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
> > gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
> > fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54

Where does getent pull that IPv6 address from?  That's not what I get
when I look myself up:

unicorn:~$ grep -i unicorn /etc/hosts
127.0.1.1   unicorn.wooledge.orgunicorn
unicorn:~$ getent hosts unicorn
127.0.1.1   unicorn.wooledge.org unicorn

I don't understand Gene's result.

Oh, and one last thing that popped into my head this morning: name
service caching daemons.  Is it possible that Gene is running nscd or
something like it, and that this is influencing his results?  It might
explain why he felt a need to reboot after changing something.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 03:07:08PM -0500, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 02:33:12PM +, Tim Woodall wrote:
> > On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, jeremy ardley wrote:
> > > you can ping them as in
> > > 
> > > ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc
> > > 
> > 
> > ooh, I didn't know that worked.
> > 
> > Same as
> > ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc%eth0
> > 
> > on my machines at least. No idea how it picks the interface when there's
> > more than one.
> > 
> > The interface seems mandatory for ssh for me:
> > 
> > tim@einstein(4):~ (none)$ ssh fe80::1
> > ssh: connect to host fe80::1 port 22: Invalid argument
> > tim@einstein(4):~ (none)$
> 
> You actually have an fe80::1 IP address on your system? That would be highly
> unusual. If you don't, why would you expect it to respond?

Whether it responds or not is, I think, irrelevant here. The thing
gets cut short by the -EINVAL, which stems from the missing interface
specification (well, "zone index" in IPv6 jargon). Without zone index,
an IPv6LL is (may be?) underspecified. So it would be fe80::1%eth0
or something similar.

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6_address#zone_index
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michel Verdier]

Le 15 février 2023 gene heskett a écrit :

> gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
> 192.168.71.12 bpi54.coyote.denbpi54
> gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
> fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54
> gene@bpi54:~$ ping -c1 coyote (this machines alias in /etc/hosts)
> ping: coyote: Name or service not known

If coyote is really an alias and not part of domain name give us
grep -i coyote /etc/hosts

For what you show bpi54 is the short hostname so you need to do
ping -c1 bpi54
and not
ping -c1 coyote

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/14/23 18:12, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 05:51:52PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

Already done that a month or so ago, to satisfy my own curiosity, the answer
is yes host lookups did fail again without it.

And just to make sure, I just went to it, removed the lsattr i, from
resolv.conf, commented that line and rebooted.


Why on earth did you reboot?  Just edit the file, ping something, see
whether it works, and if it doesn't work, SHOW US THE DETAILS!


Just to make sure there wasn't any leftovers.

I can ping yahoo.com just
fine, but this machine, 20 feet of cat5 away, is Name or service not found,
no local network IOW.


Please show us at least the following:



An sh -Y into bpi54 still works.  So: copy/paste both directions.

cat /etc/debian_version

11.6

uname -a
Linux bpi54 5.19.16-meson64 #22.08.6 SMP PREEMPT Tue Oct 18 07:08:32 UTC 
2022 aarch64 GNU/Linux

hostname

bpi54

cat /etc/hostname

bpi54

grep hosts: /etc/nsswitch.conf

hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname

cat /etc/host.conf

multi on

cat /etc/resolv.conf

# Generated by NetworkManager
nameserver 192.168.71.1

grep -i WHATEVER /etc/hosts

gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i WHATEVER /etc/hosts
gene@bpi54:~$ grep -i bpi54 /etc/hosts
192.168.71.12   bpi54.coyote.denbpi54

getent hosts WHATEVER

gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts WHATEVER
gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts coyote
gene@bpi54:~$ getent hosts bpi54
fe80::4765:bca4:565d:3c6 bpi54

ping -c1 WHATEVER

gene@bpi54:~$ ping -c1 coyote (this machines alias in /etc/hosts)
ping: coyote: Name or service not known
gene@bpi54:~$ ping -c1 yahoo.com
PING yahoo.com (74.6.231.21) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from media-router-fp74.prod.media.vip.ne1.yahoo.com 
(74.6.231.21): icmp_seq=1 ttl=48 time=62.8 ms


--- yahoo.com ping statistics ---
1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 62.839/62.839/62.839/0.000 ms



... where "WHATEVER" is the name of the machine you are trying to ping,
which is failing.

Also, anything else that you can think of that I might have forgotten.
We *really* need to know how to reproduce this.



I note my #comment has been removed from resolv.conf, so network mangler
has been there and rewritten it. That is the reason I normally do a
sudo chattr +i /etc/resolv.conf
as soon as I save after adding my "search hosts, nameserver" line to it,
otherwise Network Mangler will destroy it as it is right now.

Your turn, I'm going back to bed.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 05:51:52PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> Already done that a month or so ago, to satisfy my own curiosity, the answer
> is yes host lookups did fail again without it.
> 
> And just to make sure, I just went to it, removed the lsattr i, from
> resolv.conf, commented that line and rebooted.

Why on earth did you reboot?  Just edit the file, ping something, see
whether it works, and if it doesn't work, SHOW US THE DETAILS!

> I can ping yahoo.com just
> fine, but this machine, 20 feet of cat5 away, is Name or service not found,
> no local network IOW.

Please show us at least the following:

cat /etc/debian_version
uname -a
hostname
cat /etc/hostname
grep hosts: /etc/nsswitch.conf
cat /etc/host.conf
cat /etc/resolv.conf
grep -i WHATEVER /etc/hosts
getent hosts WHATEVER
ping -c1 WHATEVER

... where "WHATEVER" is the name of the machine you are trying to ping,
which is failing.

Also, anything else that you can think of that I might have forgotten.
We *really* need to know how to reproduce this.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/14/23 15:20, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 03:01:18PM -0500, Michael Stone wrote:

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:02:22PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

Yes Greg, you keep telling me that. But I'm in the process of bringing
up a 3dprinter farm, each printer with a bpi5 to manage octoprint. Joing
the other 4 on this net running buster and linuxcnc.

Just last week I added another bpi5, copied the /etc/hosts file and
restarted networking. It could NOT find the other machines on my net
UNTIL I added that search directive to resolv.conf.  This net is about
50/50 buster and bullseye.

If what you say is true, that should not have been the fix, so explain
again why its not working, cuz it is.


Because you change a bunch of things all the same time in a non-repeatable
fashion, lose track of what you've done, and decide that the nonsense line
did something.


As an experiment, Gene, what happens if you comment out or remove
the "search files, dns" (or whatever the exact syntax was) line in
your /etc/resolv.conf file?  Do /etc/hosts lookups stop working?

Already done that a month or so ago, to satisfy my own curiosity, the 
answer is yes host lookups did fail again without it.


And just to make sure, I just went to it, removed the lsattr i, from 
resolv.conf, commented that line and rebooted. I can ping yahoo.com just 
fine, but this machine, 20 feet of cat5 away, is Name or service not 
found, no local network IOW.


Make what you will of that, maybe, just maybe, we'll solve a problem 
you've claimed does not exist. But it does. And I'm tired to being 
called a liar, in nicer terminology.


I'll leave it that way, using it as a test bed, at least until I need to 
put it to work, currently at least 2 weeks or more in the future since 
its eventual home is running an ender5+ I'm rebuilding from the frame 
up, Starting with triangulating the frame and a 3 phase nema 23 
stepper/servo running on 42 volts for its Y drive. X drive is flying 
weight, subject to whatever works AND is light enough a 1NM nema23 can 
throw it around at 200 or more mm a second.  That is the Achilles heel 
of the Ender 5 +, anything over 50mm will lose Y home long before the 
print is done.  The last straw was 17days into a 28 day job, making 
outer housings for a BIG woodworkers vise screw, 6 up on the enders big 
plate.



If they do, this is *huge* news, and I'd love to have all of the
relevant information to be able to reproduce this result, so that I
can begin to understand it.




If they don't, well, you know what that means.


Yup, back to calling me a liar.

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 03:01:18PM -0500, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:02:22PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > Yes Greg, you keep telling me that. But I'm in the process of bringing
> > up a 3dprinter farm, each printer with a bpi5 to manage octoprint. Joing
> > the other 4 on this net running buster and linuxcnc.
> > 
> > Just last week I added another bpi5, copied the /etc/hosts file and
> > restarted networking. It could NOT find the other machines on my net
> > UNTIL I added that search directive to resolv.conf.  This net is about
> > 50/50 buster and bullseye.
> > 
> > If what you say is true, that should not have been the fix, so explain
> > again why its not working, cuz it is.
> 
> Because you change a bunch of things all the same time in a non-repeatable
> fashion, lose track of what you've done, and decide that the nonsense line
> did something.

As an experiment, Gene, what happens if you comment out or remove
the "search files, dns" (or whatever the exact syntax was) line in
your /etc/resolv.conf file?  Do /etc/hosts lookups stop working?

If they do, this is *huge* news, and I'd love to have all of the
relevant information to be able to reproduce this result, so that I
can begin to understand it.

If they don't, well, you know what that means.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 02:33:12PM +, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, jeremy ardley wrote:

you can ping them as in

ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc



ooh, I didn't know that worked.

Same as
ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc%eth0

on my machines at least. No idea how it picks the interface when there's
more than one.

The interface seems mandatory for ssh for me:

tim@einstein(4):~ (none)$ ssh fe80::1
ssh: connect to host fe80::1 port 22: Invalid argument
tim@einstein(4):~ (none)$


You actually have an fe80::1 IP address on your system? That would be 
highly unusual. If you don't, why would you expect it to respond?

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:02:22PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
Yes Greg, you keep telling me that. But I'm in the process of bringing 
up a 3dprinter farm, each printer with a bpi5 to manage octoprint. 
Joing the other 4 on this net running buster and linuxcnc.


Just last week I added another bpi5, copied the /etc/hosts file and 
restarted networking. It could NOT find the other machines on my net 
UNTIL I added that search directive to resolv.conf.  This net is about 
50/50 buster and bullseye.


If what you say is true, that should not have been the fix, so explain 
again why its not working, cuz it is.


Because you change a bunch of things all the same time in a 
non-repeatable fashion, lose track of what you've done, and decide that 
the nonsense line did something.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michael Stone]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 07:42:59PM +, Brian wrote:


I was attracted by this idea and it gave me pause for
thought. Leaving aside printers that include a network
interface, the IPP-over-USB standard applies to a
non-network-capable  printer.

The specs require IPP (put in firmware, I suppose) and
DNS-SD discovery (again in firmware). Little extra cost?
AFAICT, a networking stack is not specified. Why should
it be for an isolated machine?


Because that's how IPP works: IPP-over-USB essentially creates a 
point-to-point network to the printer, which is then addressed via TCP 
just like any other networked printer. Historically there was a 
significant cost associated with adding a networking stack (more 
processors, memory, etc), but as everything gets more integrated it's 
essentially a zero-cost addition. It's not going to be added to old 
hardware, but not many new designs are likely to be introduced without 
it.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/14/23 10:49, David Wright wrote:

Wisely done: we don't need it twice … and logs can be lengthy.


I have seen the 169.254.xxx.yyy on my system, too.
It is a Debian Bullseye. To check if Debian works on this hardware I
have simply select the xfce4 option in the installer. Either the avahi
stuff or xfce4 triggered the setup of the 169.254.xxx.yyy adress.
Disabling the start of the avahi-daemon did not change the situation.
Deinstall of avahi-daemon did not help, too.

Today I have deleted almost everything of avahi and xfce4. After a
reboot the 169.254.xxx.yyy is no more configured.


Yes, and that's a problem for anyone trying to replicate the
configuration of these addresses: we usually never see files
and logs from offending systems, but just reports of package
deletion or, even less helpful, so-called nuking of random files.

Cheers,
David.


Alright guys, I may have an existing system here that shows a 169, but 
not as default. Running Armbian bullseye AND xfce4, in fact I have 2 of 
them that show an ip r of:


gene@bpi54:~$ ip r

default via 192.168.71.1 dev eth0 proto static metric 100
169.254.0.0/16 dev eth0 scope link metric 1000
192.168.71.0/24 dev eth0 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.71.12 
metric 100


Probably have 4 of them, but only two are powered ATM, and the other is 
busy running klipper and a 3d printer.
And networking is running fine on all 4 despite its being present as it 
is not the default. And all are using xfce4, because the gnome screen 
blanker is an instant crash and burn, requiring a power down reset to 
recover from. The xfce4 blanker Just Works.


The reason you've never seen any logs etc is that if its the default. 
there is no way in hell to get you those logs or other info because 
there is no network to get it to you.  We could take screen pix, but my 
camera makes 5 meg jpegs the server won't take.


So maybe we can figure out whats different about Armbian that makes it 
work. Give me some troubleshooting commands to see if we can figure out 
whats different about armbian that makes it work when there's no way in 
hell to make it work with a debian install of bullseye and going clear 
back at least to stretch, maybe further? Except nuking avahi and rebooting.


Maybe this is your chance to come up with a fix that doesn't get us a 
sermon, questioning our intelligence for doing it.


That I don't mind saying gets old. You aren't dealing with a dummy. I've 
passed several of those tests in my time, getting scores within the top 
1%, made 147 on the Iowa IQ test, made 98 out of 100 on the AFQT in the 
middle of Korea, next best in 140 other boys that day was 36, and in 
'72, made 123 out of 125 on the CET test by walking in the door and 
putting my $20 bill to sit for the test on the professors desk. He'd 
been teaching that 2 year coarse for 5 years and I, just a stranger 
walking in the door was the first to pass that test. Without cracking a 
book I hadn't already devoured years before. I still have a mental 
picture of how high his eyebrows went when I turned in the paper, 45 
minutes into the 4 hours allocated, when he laid the answer stencil on 
it and saw a sea of black he had never seen before. Priceless. ;o)>


Take care & stay well, everybody.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Christoph Brinkhaus]

Am Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 09:48:11AM -0600 schrieb David Wright:

Hello David,

> On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 11:39:31 (+0100), Christoph Brinkhaus wrote:
> > Am Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 09:29:16PM -0600 schrieb David Wright:
> > > On Fri 10 Feb 2023 at 06:40:42 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:32:46PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > > > > On 2/9/23 07:53, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 07:32:18AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > (I have no idea what mdns4_minimal is, but Debian put it there, 
> > > > > > > and it
> > > > > > > hasn't caused a problem yet so I left it alone.)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > This is a zeroconf thingy. My box hasn't that, because I banned 
> > > > > > Avahi
> > > > > > and its ilk long ago.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Just out of curiosity: does your box have one of those funny 
> > > > > > link-local
> > > > > > IPv4 169.254.xxx.yyy addresses?
> > 
> > [deleted almost everything]
> 
> Wisely done: we don't need it twice … and logs can be lengthy.
> 
> > I have seen the 169.254.xxx.yyy on my system, too.
> > It is a Debian Bullseye. To check if Debian works on this hardware I
> > have simply select the xfce4 option in the installer. Either the avahi
> > stuff or xfce4 triggered the setup of the 169.254.xxx.yyy adress.
> > Disabling the start of the avahi-daemon did not change the situation.
> > Deinstall of avahi-daemon did not help, too.
> > 
> > Today I have deleted almost everything of avahi and xfce4. After a
> > reboot the 169.254.xxx.yyy is no more configured.
> 
> Yes, and that's a problem for anyone trying to replicate the
> configuration of these addresses: we usually never see files
> and logs from offending systems, but just reports of package
> deletion or, even less helpful, so-called nuking of random files.

Ok, this is true. Fortunately I have a git repository of /etc.
The diff is as below:

X11/Xsession.d/55xfce4-session (gone)
alternatives/lightdm-greeter (gone)
alternatives/x-session-manager (gone)
alternatives/x-session-manager.1.gz (gone)
alternatives/x-terminal-emulator
alternatives/x-terminal-emulator.1.gz
avahi/avahi-autoipd.action (gone)
avahi/avahi-daemon.conf (gone)
avahi/hosts (gone)
dbus-1/system.d/avahi-dbus.conf (gone)
default/avahi-daemon (gone)
dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/avahi-autoipd (gone)
.../dhclient-exit-hooks.d/zzz_avahi-autoipd (gone)
group
group-
gshadow
gshadow-
init.d/avahi-daemon (gone)
ipp-usb/ipp-usb.conf (gone)
ld.so.cache
mailcap
network/if-down.d/avahi-autoipd (gone)
network/if-up.d/avahi-autoipd (gone)
nsswitch.conf
passwd
passwd-
rc0.d/K01avahi-daemon (gone)
rc1.d/K01avahi-daemon (gone)
rc2.d/K01avahi-daemon (gone)
rc3.d/K01avahi-daemon (gone)
rc4.d/K01avahi-daemon (gone)
rc5.d/K01avahi-daemon (gone)
rc6.d/K01avahi-daemon (gone)
shadow
shadow-
xdg/autostart/xscreensaver.desktop (gone)
xdg/xfce4/Xft.xrdb (gone)
.../xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-session.xml (gone)
xdg/xfce4/xinitrc (gone)
xfce4/defaults.list (gone)
40 files changed, 6 insertions(+), 841 deletions(-)

May be this gives some information. If not I can reproduce the issue
and provide logs as required.

Now there is no 169.254.xxx.yyy in any file of /etc.

Kind regards,
Christoph
-- 
Ist die Katze gesund
schmeckt sie dem Hund.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Nicolas George]

David Wright (12023-02-14):
> > lsusb -v > /tmp/1
> > sudo lsusb -v > /tmp/2
> > diff -u /tmp/1 /tmp/2

> Irrespective of the lines that interested Brian, how did your system
> manage to produce no output

I copy-pasted only the commands, not their output.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[David Wright]

On Tue 14 Feb 2023 at 13:32:37 (+0100), Nicolas George wrote:
> Brian (12023-02-14):
> > > FWIW, if you invoke lsusb with the -v option, you need
> > > some superpowers. So better "sudo lsusb -v".
> > I do not believe that to be the case.
> 
> experiment > belief
> 
> lsusb -v > /tmp/1
> sudo lsusb -v > /tmp/2
> diff -u /tmp/1 /tmp/2
> 
> Regards,

Irrespective of the lines that interested Brian, how did your system
manage to produce no output, whereas Greg's and all of my systems
produce lots; in my case, 95, 141, 226, 278 and 303 lines.
(Greg used sudo, whereas I logged in as root.)

The extra sections that root reports appear to be variously:
  Hub Descriptor:
Hub Port Status:
  Binary Object Store Descriptor:
  Device Qualifier (for other device speed):

Cheers,
David.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[David Wright]

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 11:39:31 (+0100), Christoph Brinkhaus wrote:
> Am Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 09:29:16PM -0600 schrieb David Wright:
> 
> please excuse the late reply. I have had a side discussion with Tomas
> in German about the issue I observed, too.
> 
> > On Fri 10 Feb 2023 at 06:40:42 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:32:46PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > > > On 2/9/23 07:53, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 07:32:18AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > 
> > > > > > (I have no idea what mdns4_minimal is, but Debian put it there, and 
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > hasn't caused a problem yet so I left it alone.)
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is a zeroconf thingy. My box hasn't that, because I banned Avahi
> > > > > and its ilk long ago.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Just out of curiosity: does your box have one of those funny 
> > > > > link-local
> > > > > IPv4 169.254.xxx.yyy addresses?
> 
> [deleted almost everything]

Wisely done: we don't need it twice … and logs can be lengthy.

> I have seen the 169.254.xxx.yyy on my system, too.
> It is a Debian Bullseye. To check if Debian works on this hardware I
> have simply select the xfce4 option in the installer. Either the avahi
> stuff or xfce4 triggered the setup of the 169.254.xxx.yyy adress.
> Disabling the start of the avahi-daemon did not change the situation.
> Deinstall of avahi-daemon did not help, too.
> 
> Today I have deleted almost everything of avahi and xfce4. After a
> reboot the 169.254.xxx.yyy is no more configured.

Yes, and that's a problem for anyone trying to replicate the
configuration of these addresses: we usually never see files
and logs from offending systems, but just reports of package
deletion or, even less helpful, so-called nuking of random files.

Cheers,
David.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Stefan Monnier]

> Network printers from 2016 almost certainly (always in my
> experience) do ship with IPP-over-USB. For some reason USB-only
> devices generally do not provide it; it's very hit-and-miss.

IPP-over-USB basically requires the whole traditional networking stack,
so it's no surprise that it's usually present in printers that include
a network interface (very little extra cost) and not in
USB-only printers.


Stefan

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/14/23 07:58, Brian wrote:
[...]

Brother HL-L2320D L2300D best budget laser printer review
https://www.youtube.com › watch
7:51
A quick demonstration and review of the Brother HL-L2320D laser printer.Buy it 
on Amazon here: http://amzn.to/2haHDsdOr buy the similar ...
YouTube · DarkStoneCastle · Dec 21, 2016


So... yeah, I guess we're saying that your printer was 5 years old at the
moment you bought it.  Or at least, that it was a 5-year-old *design*,
even if that particular printer had been assembled more recently.


The Brother HL-L2320D seems to have come on the market in early
2016. I haven't any idea when Staples decided to stock it.


Now, personally I don't consider a 7-year-old product to be an antique,
but maybe Brian does.  I certainly can't speak for him on this topic.


I do not consider a 7-year-old product to be an antique. The
significance of 2016 is that it is four years after the
IPP-over-USB standard was ratified.

Network printers from 2016 almost certainly (always in my
experience) do ship with IPP-over-USB. For some reason USB-only
devices generally do not provide it; it's very hit-and-miss.

I do not know why all vendors (not just Brother) have taken that
decision. It's a real pain as it effectively makes the printer
a legacy model and very much limits how it fits into the Debian
printing ecosystem.

The big scanner/printer has an ip address, but its a lot slower when 
using ipv4 to operate it, I wiresharked it back about jessie, and found 
why, the cups driver for IPP was sending a bad crc the first 6 times it 
tried to wake it up before it decided to send a good crc, so there was a 
1 minute time killer just to wake it up. Then it was about a 5 kilobaud 
circuit, about a minute a text page. Its at least 5x faster on a usb2 
circuit. A ping works in 0.5 milliseconds, but that doesn't wake it up. 
Its much faster on a usb circuit.


I made some noise about it at the time, but was ignored. I don't know if 
dfu could update its firmware, or if its too old for that.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Brian]

On Tue 14 Feb 2023 at 14:02:05 +0100, Nicolas George wrote:

> Greg Wooledge (12023-02-14):
> > It's certainly more than "the error messages went away".
> 
> Yes, but Reco was smarter than us, with the "> /dev/null".

OK, my belief, backed up by experience, is that sudo is
not needed to obtain the specific information I was after.

-- 
Brian.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/14/23 07:21, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 07:07:58AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

On 2/14/23 06:29, Brian wrote:

Anyway, this USB-only printer from 2016 does not provide
an IPP-over-USB service. This is not unexpected.


Are you saying that this printer has been sitting on the Staples display for
5 years when I bought it new about when it first showed up there 2 years
ago?


Had to dig through the archive to find the model number (HL-L2320D)
again, since it was snipped in this part of the thread.  Once I found
the model number, I did a Google search, and this was one of the results:


Brother HL-L2320D L2300D best budget laser printer review
https://www.youtube.com › watch
7:51
A quick demonstration and review of the Brother HL-L2320D laser printer.Buy it 
on Amazon here: http://amzn.to/2haHDsdOr buy the similar ...
YouTube · DarkStoneCastle · Dec 21, 2016


So... yeah, I guess we're saying that your printer was 5 years old at the
moment you bought it.  Or at least, that it was a 5-year-old *design*,
even if that particular printer had been assembled more recently.

Now, personally I don't consider a 7-year-old product to be an antique,
but maybe Brian does.  I certainly can't speak for him on this topic.


Good grief, I had no clue the design is that old.

Antique? I resemble that, but at 88 yo most would agree I'm one. 7 years 
is the little girl across the street. I've been here long enough the 5 
year old girl next door has turned 37 and has a 14 year old boy a foot 
taller than me.


Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Nicolas George]

Greg Wooledge (12023-02-14):
> It's certainly more than "the error messages went away".

Yes, but Reco was smarter than us, with the "> /dev/null".

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 03:37:58PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> lsusb -v >/dev/null
> 
> sudo lsusb -v >/dev/null
> 
> 
> First one shows: "Couldn't open device, some information will be
> missing". Second one does not.

diff -u <(lsusb -v 2>&1) <(sudo lsusb -v 2>&1) | less

gives me 252 lines of diff output.  There's at least one whole new section,
and some lines get additional details, like:

-  iInterface  5 
+  iInterface  5 Bulk-In, Bulk-Out, Interface

It's certainly more than "the error messages went away".

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Brian]

On Tue 14 Feb 2023 at 07:21:00 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 07:07:58AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > On 2/14/23 06:29, Brian wrote:
> > > Anyway, this USB-only printer from 2016 does not provide
> > > an IPP-over-USB service. This is not unexpected.
> > > 
> > Are you saying that this printer has been sitting on the Staples display for
> > 5 years when I bought it new about when it first showed up there 2 years
> > ago?
> 
> Had to dig through the archive to find the model number (HL-L2320D)
> again, since it was snipped in this part of the thread.  Once I found
> the model number, I did a Google search, and this was one of the results:
> 
> 
> Brother HL-L2320D L2300D best budget laser printer review
> https://www.youtube.com › watch
> 7:51
> A quick demonstration and review of the Brother HL-L2320D laser printer.Buy 
> it on Amazon here: http://amzn.to/2haHDsdOr buy the similar ...
> YouTube · DarkStoneCastle · Dec 21, 2016
> 
> 
> So... yeah, I guess we're saying that your printer was 5 years old at the
> moment you bought it.  Or at least, that it was a 5-year-old *design*,
> even if that particular printer had been assembled more recently.

The Brother HL-L2320D seems to have come on the market in early
2016. I haven't any idea when Staples decided to stock it.

> Now, personally I don't consider a 7-year-old product to be an antique,
> but maybe Brian does.  I certainly can't speak for him on this topic.

I do not consider a 7-year-old product to be an antique. The
significance of 2016 is that it is four years after the
IPP-over-USB standard was ratified.

Network printers from 2016 almost certainly (always in my
experience) do ship with IPP-over-USB. For some reason USB-only
devices generally do not provide it; it's very hit-and-miss.

I do not know why all vendors (not just Brother) have taken that
decision. It's a real pain as it effectively makes the printer
a legacy model and very much limits how it fits into the Debian
printing ecosystem.

-- 
Brian.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 01:32:37PM +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> Brian (12023-02-14):
> > > FWIW, if you invoke lsusb with the -v option, you need
> > > some superpowers. So better "sudo lsusb -v".
> > I do not believe that to be the case.
> 
> experiment > belief

Indeed.

lsusb -v >/dev/null

sudo lsusb -v >/dev/null


First one shows: "Couldn't open device, some information will be
missing". Second one does not.

Reco

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Nicolas George]

Brian (12023-02-14):
> > FWIW, if you invoke lsusb with the -v option, you need
> > some superpowers. So better "sudo lsusb -v".
> I do not believe that to be the case.

experiment > belief

lsusb -v > /tmp/1
sudo lsusb -v > /tmp/2
diff -u /tmp/1 /tmp/2

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 07:07:58AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 2/14/23 06:29, Brian wrote:
> > Anyway, this USB-only printer from 2016 does not provide
> > an IPP-over-USB service. This is not unexpected.
> > 
> Are you saying that this printer has been sitting on the Staples display for
> 5 years when I bought it new about when it first showed up there 2 years
> ago?

Had to dig through the archive to find the model number (HL-L2320D)
again, since it was snipped in this part of the thread.  Once I found
the model number, I did a Google search, and this was one of the results:


Brother HL-L2320D L2300D best budget laser printer review
https://www.youtube.com › watch
7:51
A quick demonstration and review of the Brother HL-L2320D laser printer.Buy it 
on Amazon here: http://amzn.to/2haHDsdOr buy the similar ...
YouTube · DarkStoneCastle · Dec 21, 2016


So... yeah, I guess we're saying that your printer was 5 years old at the
moment you bought it.  Or at least, that it was a 5-year-old *design*,
even if that particular printer had been assembled more recently.

Now, personally I don't consider a 7-year-old product to be an antique,
but maybe Brian does.  I certainly can't speak for him on this topic.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/14/23 06:29, Brian wrote:

On Tue 14 Feb 2023 at 06:23:34 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 04:04:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

On 2/13/23 14:10, Brian wrote:

lsusb -v | grep -A 3 bInterfaceClass.*7


FWIW, if you invoke lsusb with the -v option, you need
some superpowers. So better "sudo lsusb -v".


I do not believe that to be the case.

As your user run 'lsusb -v | less' and clear the screen
(CTRL-L) or scroll up and down. Observations? Gene
Heskett did use sudo. Note the different messages.

Anyway, this USB-only printer from 2016 does not provide
an IPP-over-USB service. This is not unexpected.

Are you saying that this printer has been sitting on the Staples display 
for 5 years when I bought it new about when it first showed up there 2 
years ago? And I bought it to  replace an older but nearly like model 
that had decided it did not have a toner insert when it had a new one of 
the proper ID in it and had been using it for a couple reams of paper 
already?


I find it quite unlikely this printer is 7 yeas old. My bigger, tabloid 
sized printer, yes, easily 7 years old as I originally bought it to do 
rockhopper printouts of the control logic of my linuxcnc machines with 
fewer sheets of tabloid sized paper. A single machine can output enough 
logic info to piece together, taping sheets together to cover a wall, 
more than covering a single 4x8 foot sheet of plywood. Great for 
troubleshooting but eats shop space like M&M's candy.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Brian]

On Tue 14 Feb 2023 at 06:23:34 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 04:04:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > On 2/13/23 14:10, Brian wrote:
> > > lsusb -v | grep -A 3 bInterfaceClass.*7
> 
> FWIW, if you invoke lsusb with the -v option, you need
> some superpowers. So better "sudo lsusb -v".

I do not believe that to be the case.

As your user run 'lsusb -v | less' and clear the screen
(CTRL-L) or scroll up and down. Observations? Gene
Heskett did use sudo. Note the different messages.

Anyway, this USB-only printer from 2016 does not provide
an IPP-over-USB service. This is not unexpected.

-- 
Brian.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 04:04:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 2/13/23 14:10, Brian wrote:
> > lsusb -v | grep -A 3 bInterfaceClass.*7

FWIW, if you invoke lsusb with the -v option, you need
some superpowers. So better "sudo lsusb -v".

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/13/23 14:10, Brian wrote:

lsusb -v | grep -A 3 bInterfaceClass.*7
gene@coyote:~/Downloads/3dp.stf/trident/stl.stf_from_slipper/02面板安装部分$ 
lsusb -v | grep -A 3 bInterfaceClass.*7

Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
  bInterfaceClass 7 Printer
  bInterfaceSubClass  1 Printer
  bInterfaceProtocol  2 Bidirectional
  iInterface  0
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
--
  bInterfaceClass 7 Printer
  bInterfaceSubClass  1 Printer
  bInterfaceProtocol  2 Bidirectional
  iInterface  0
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
gene@coyote:~/Downloads/3dp.stf/trident/stl.stf_from_slipper/02面板安装部分$ 
sudo lsusb -v | grep -A 3 bInterfaceClass.*7

[sudo] password for gene:
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
  bInterfaceClass 7 Printer
  bInterfaceSubClass  1 Printer
  bInterfaceProtocol  2 Bidirectional
  iInterface  0
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get device qualifier: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get device qualifier: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
--
  bInterfaceClass 7 Printer
  bInterfaceSubClass  1 Printer
  bInterfaceProtocol  2 Bidirectional
  iInterface  0
can't get device qualifier: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get device qualifier: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get device qualifier: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get device qualifier: Resource temporarily unavailable
can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
gene@coyote:~/Downloads/3dp.stf/trident/stl.stf_from_slipper/02面板安装部分$ 





Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/13/23 12:12, Brian wrote:



And the model of b&w laser?


HL-L2320D

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Brian]

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 11:21:00 -0500, gene heskett wrote:

> On 2/13/23 10:30, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 10:08:22 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > 
> > > On 2/13/23 10:00, Brian wrote:
> > > > On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:30:32 -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 2/13/23 06:01, Brian wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:25:15 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 07:12:42PM +, Brian wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Fortunately, the vast majority of users with a modern printer 
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > not taken a similar view. They now enjoy an effortless and 
> > > > > > > > enjoyable
> > > > > > > > printing experience.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > My printer is all well, thankyouverymuch. Whenever I'm after an
> > > > > > > "experience", I take my bike and ride to the mountains, very
> > > > > > > enjoyable :)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Such a journey would give ample opportunity to ponder why mDNS
> > > > > > multicasting is welcomed by so many users and whether you will
> > > > > > embrace it when CUPS ceases to support legacy printers. :)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > Precisely the unsaid point of my last post.  That will be the impetus 
> > > > > to
> > > > > fork cups.
> > > > 
> > > > That's very doubtful. The printing system's New Architecture
> > > > includes extensive and sound provision to support legacy
> > > > printers. More or less, all the PPD's and drivers distributed
> > > > by Debian are catered for.
> > > 
> > > The idea is fine, Brian, but for Brother stuff, its crippling. A multitray
> > > printer is restricted to the most expensive paper, where duplex does not
> > > work either.  In 2023, that is Unforgivable.
> > 
> > You are basing your view on experience of a single Brother
> > printer, the MFC-J6920DW. This is an IPP printer. It is
> > perfectly possible for the IPP implementation to be less
> > than perfect. Nothing to do with our printing system.
> > 
> > You'll have thoroughly investigated this aspect of the
> > vendor's machine, of course?
> > 
> Wrong again Brian. I have two of their printers here as there is also a $120
> b&w laser that happily spits out 20+ pages a minute in full duplex. But
> running on the debian supplied drivers it can't even duplex. And it will if
> its anything like its predecessor, continue to do that the rest of my life,
> or 50,000 pages as long as I feed it toner & decent paper.

And the model of b&w laser?

-- 
Brian.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Brian]

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 11:11:38 -0500, gene heskett wrote:

[...]

> "Distributed by Debian" is the key phrase here.  That qualifier apparently
> does not include the better Brothers.

The Brother drivers are non-free. They will cease to work.
It will be up to Brother to accomodate them to the New
Architecture.

-- 
Brian.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/13/23 10:30, Brian wrote:

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 10:08:22 -0500, gene heskett wrote:


On 2/13/23 10:00, Brian wrote:

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:30:32 -0500, gene heskett wrote:


On 2/13/23 06:01, Brian wrote:

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:25:15 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 07:12:42PM +, Brian wrote:

[...]


Fortunately, the vast majority of users with a modern printer have
not taken a similar view. They now enjoy an effortless and enjoyable
printing experience.


My printer is all well, thankyouverymuch. Whenever I'm after an
"experience", I take my bike and ride to the mountains, very
enjoyable :)


Such a journey would give ample opportunity to ponder why mDNS
multicasting is welcomed by so many users and whether you will
embrace it when CUPS ceases to support legacy printers. :)


Precisely the unsaid point of my last post.  That will be the impetus to
fork cups.


That's very doubtful. The printing system's New Architecture
includes extensive and sound provision to support legacy
printers. More or less, all the PPD's and drivers distributed
by Debian are catered for.


The idea is fine, Brian, but for Brother stuff, its crippling. A multitray
printer is restricted to the most expensive paper, where duplex does not
work either.  In 2023, that is Unforgivable.


You are basing your view on experience of a single Brother
printer, the MFC-J6920DW. This is an IPP printer. It is
perfectly possible for the IPP implementation to be less
than perfect. Nothing to do with our printing system.

You'll have thoroughly investigated this aspect of the
vendor's machine, of course?

Wrong again Brian. I have two of their printers here as there is also a 
$120 b&w laser that happily spits out 20+ pages a minute in full duplex. 
But running on the debian supplied drivers it can't even duplex. And it 
will if its anything like its predecessor, continue to do that the rest 
of my life, or 50,000 pages as long as I feed it toner & decent paper.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/13/23 10:00, Brian wrote:

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:30:32 -0500, gene heskett wrote:


On 2/13/23 06:01, Brian wrote:

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:25:15 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 07:12:42PM +, Brian wrote:

[...]


Fortunately, the vast majority of users with a modern printer have
not taken a similar view. They now enjoy an effortless and enjoyable
printing experience.


My printer is all well, thankyouverymuch. Whenever I'm after an
"experience", I take my bike and ride to the mountains, very
enjoyable :)


Such a journey would give ample opportunity to ponder why mDNS
multicasting is welcomed by so many users and whether you will
embrace it when CUPS ceases to support legacy printers. :)


Precisely the unsaid point of my last post.  That will be the impetus to
fork cups.


That's very doubtful. The printing system's New Architecture
includes extensive and sound provision to support legacy
printers. More or less, all the PPD's and drivers distributed
by Debian are catered for.

"Distributed by Debian" is the key phrase here.  That qualifier 
apparently does not include the better Brothers.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/13/23 10:00, Brian wrote:

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:30:32 -0500, gene heskett wrote:


On 2/13/23 06:01, Brian wrote:

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:25:15 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 07:12:42PM +, Brian wrote:

[...]


Fortunately, the vast majority of users with a modern printer have
not taken a similar view. They now enjoy an effortless and enjoyable
printing experience.


My printer is all well, thankyouverymuch. Whenever I'm after an
"experience", I take my bike and ride to the mountains, very
enjoyable :)


Such a journey would give ample opportunity to ponder why mDNS
multicasting is welcomed by so many users and whether you will
embrace it when CUPS ceases to support legacy printers. :)


Precisely the unsaid point of my last post.  That will be the impetus to
fork cups.


That's very doubtful. The printing system's New Architecture
includes extensive and sound provision to support legacy
printers. More or less, all the PPD's and drivers distributed
by Debian are catered for.


The idea is fine, Brian, but for Brother stuff, its crippling. A 
multitray printer is restricted to the most expensive paper, where 
duplex does not work either.  In 2023, that is Unforgivable.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Brian]

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:30:32 -0500, gene heskett wrote:

> On 2/13/23 06:01, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:25:15 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 07:12:42PM +, Brian wrote:
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > > Fortunately, the vast majority of users with a modern printer have
> > > > not taken a similar view. They now enjoy an effortless and enjoyable
> > > > printing experience.
> > > 
> > > My printer is all well, thankyouverymuch. Whenever I'm after an
> > > "experience", I take my bike and ride to the mountains, very
> > > enjoyable :)
> > 
> > Such a journey would give ample opportunity to ponder why mDNS
> > multicasting is welcomed by so many users and whether you will
> > embrace it when CUPS ceases to support legacy printers. :)
> > 
> Precisely the unsaid point of my last post.  That will be the impetus to
> fork cups.

That's very doubtful. The printing system's New Architecture
includes extensive and sound provision to support legacy
printers. More or less, all the PPD's and drivers distributed
by Debian are catered for.

-- 
Brian.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 09:25:22AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

[...]

> Ahh nice Tomas, until it says Brother on the printer. Brother has a system
> of drivers AND a Linux installer that will make their printers work exactly
> on Linux as they do on windows [...]

Last Brother I had was straight PS (well, a somewhat crippled one, but
setting things for Level 1 "fixed" most quirks) and an IP port.

More than enough for lprng.

I mistrust vendor "drivers".

[...]

> FWIW, users of Brother printers should keep the installer and re-run it
> occasionally, as it will automatically install the latest, possibly bug
> fixed drivers on your Linux box.  And they Just Work.

This would be absolutely out of the question for me. Either they publish
their stuff and it arrives via the distribution I trust or I must assume
they are too embarrased to show their code in public. Then I don't want
it on my box. Such a printer is next day back in the shop.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/13/23 06:01, Brian wrote:

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:25:15 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 07:12:42PM +, Brian wrote:

[...]


Fortunately, the vast majority of users with a modern printer have
not taken a similar view. They now enjoy an effortless and enjoyable
printing experience.


My printer is all well, thankyouverymuch. Whenever I'm after an
"experience", I take my bike and ride to the mountains, very
enjoyable :)


Such a journey would give ample opportunity to ponder why mDNS
multicasting is welcomed by so many users and whether you will
embrace it when CUPS ceases to support legacy printers. :)

Precisely the unsaid point of my last post.  That will be the impetus to 
fork cups.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 11:00:48AM +, Brian wrote:

[...]

> > My printer is all well, thankyouverymuch. Whenever I'm after an
> > "experience", I take my bike and ride to the mountains, very
> > enjoyable :)
> 
> Such a journey would give ample opportunity to ponder why mDNS
> multicasting is welcomed by so many users and whether you will
> embrace it when CUPS ceases to support legacy printers. :)

No CUPS around here. I always felt a bit queasy about running a
whole grown-up web server to get data to a printer.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Brian]

On Mon 13 Feb 2023 at 09:25:15 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 07:12:42PM +, Brian wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Fortunately, the vast majority of users with a modern printer have
> > not taken a similar view. They now enjoy an effortless and enjoyable
> > printing experience.
> 
> My printer is all well, thankyouverymuch. Whenever I'm after an
> "experience", I take my bike and ride to the mountains, very
> enjoyable :)

Such a journey would give ample opportunity to ponder why mDNS
multicasting is welcomed by so many users and whether you will
embrace it when CUPS ceases to support legacy printers. :)

-- 
Brian.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Christoph Brinkhaus]

Am Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 09:29:16PM -0600 schrieb David Wright:

Hi David,

please excuse the late reply. I have had a side discussion with Tomas
in German about the issue I observed, too.

> On Fri 10 Feb 2023 at 06:40:42 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:32:46PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > > On 2/9/23 07:53, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 07:32:18AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > [...]
> > > > 
> > > > > (I have no idea what mdns4_minimal is, but Debian put it there, and it
> > > > > hasn't caused a problem yet so I left it alone.)
> > > > 
> > > > This is a zeroconf thingy. My box hasn't that, because I banned Avahi
> > > > and its ilk long ago.
> > > > 
> > > > Just out of curiosity: does your box have one of those funny link-local
> > > > IPv4 169.254.xxx.yyy addresses?

[deleted almost everything]

I have seen the 169.254.xxx.yyy on my system, too.
It is a Debian Bullseye. To check if Debian works on this hardware I
have simply select the xfce4 option in the installer. Either the avahi
stuff or xfce4 triggered the setup of the 169.254.xxx.yyy adress.
Disabling the start of the avahi-daemon did not change the situation.
Deinstall of avahi-daemon did not help, too.

Today I have deleted almost everything of avahi and xfce4. After a
reboot the 169.254.xxx.yyy is no more configured.

Kind regards,
Christoph
-- 
Ist die Katze gesund
schmeckt sie dem Hund.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 07:12:42PM +, Brian wrote:

[...]

> Fortunately, the vast majority of users with a modern printer have
> not taken a similar view. They now enjoy an effortless and enjoyable
> printing experience.

My printer is all well, thankyouverymuch. Whenever I'm after an
"experience", I take my bike and ride to the mountains, very
enjoyable :)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Brian]

On Sun 12 Feb 2023 at 07:55:04 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 09:29:16PM -0600, David Wright wrote:

[...]

> > So it's difficult to figure out why some are plagued by these
> > addresses, made worse when one gets used for the default route, eg
> >   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/07/msg00208.html
> > So many of the "solutions" proferred seemed to involve "nuking" avahi.
> 
> My reason for "nuking" Avahi wasn't the IPv4LL. ISTR that it misbehaved
> once, which made me aware of its existence. Then I read up on what it
> does and decided "no, I don't want this on my network".

Fortunately, the vast majority of users with a modern printer have
not taken a similar view. They now enjoy an effortless and enjoyable
printing experience.

-- 
Brian.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2023 11 Feb 21:30 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> I've read that machines give themselves a 169.254.… address when they
> boot up and can't find a DHCP server. But I never see those addresses
> when I boot up a machine, disconnected or connected. All I see is
> localhost on 127.0.0.1, the machine's hostname on 127.0.1.1, and
> if connected, the 192.168.1.NN address handed out by DHCP.

I've never seen a Debian or other Linux distribution self-assign such an
address, but years back at work MS Windows NT 4.0 machines that could
not reach a network would do so routinely.  It made it easy for me to
simply look at the IP address and know there was some connectivity issue
for that machine.

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 09:29:16PM -0600, David Wright wrote:

> My systems all have avahi-daemon and avahi-utils installed, and the
> laptops have avahi-autoipd as well, but I never see 169.254.…
> addresses in the output of   ip a¹   or in the logs², or in the output
> of   avahi-browse -art³   (which shows a driverless printer, my
> apt-cacher-ng, and a TV that's switched on by chance (AirPlay/spotify)).

Thanks for your insights :-)

> I've read that machines give themselves a 169.254.… address when they
> boot up and can't find a DHCP server.

That was my take too, yes. But I think there are other mechanisms which
may set up an IPv4LL.

>   But I never see those addresses
> when I boot up a machine, disconnected or connected. All I see is
> localhost on 127.0.0.1, the machine's hostname on 127.0.1.1, and
> if connected, the 192.168.1.NN address handed out by DHCP.

I'm sure it can be configured out from Avahi.


> So it's difficult to figure out why some are plagued by these
> addresses, made worse when one gets used for the default route, eg
>   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/07/msg00208.html
> So many of the "solutions" proferred seemed to involve "nuking" avahi.

My reason for "nuking" Avahi wasn't the IPv4LL. ISTR that it misbehaved
once, which made me aware of its existence. Then I read up on what it
does and decided "no, I don't want this on my network".

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[David Wright]

On Fri 10 Feb 2023 at 06:40:42 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:32:46PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > On 2/9/23 07:53, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 07:32:18AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > > (I have no idea what mdns4_minimal is, but Debian put it there, and it
> > > > hasn't caused a problem yet so I left it alone.)
> > > 
> > > This is a zeroconf thingy. My box hasn't that, because I banned Avahi
> > > and its ilk long ago.
> > > 
> > > Just out of curiosity: does your box have one of those funny link-local
> > > IPv4 169.254.xxx.yyy addresses?
> > > 
> > rant on:
> > 
> > Same here Tomas, anytime I see one of those  addresses, avahi is another
> > NSFW word, and it goes out by way of rm [...]
> 
> Dunno. Debian here. I just don't install it. Works :-)

My systems all have avahi-daemon and avahi-utils installed, and the
laptops have avahi-autoipd as well, but I never see 169.254.…
addresses in the output of   ip a¹   or in the logs², or in the output
of   avahi-browse -art³   (which shows a driverless printer, my
apt-cacher-ng, and a TV that's switched on by chance (AirPlay/spotify)).

I've read that machines give themselves a 169.254.… address when they
boot up and can't find a DHCP server. But I never see those addresses
when I boot up a machine, disconnected or connected. All I see is
localhost on 127.0.0.1, the machine's hostname on 127.0.1.1, and
if connected, the 192.168.1.NN address handed out by DHCP.

So it's difficult to figure out why some are plagued by these
addresses, made worse when one gets used for the default route, eg
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/07/msg00208.html
So many of the "solutions" proferred seemed to involve "nuking" avahi.

Disclosure: The router's DHCP server on my LAN assigns the IP
addresses by means of devices' MACs. As there's no DNS server,
hosts find each other using /etc/hosts, which I redistribute
from a master copy whenever I add, say, a new device to the DHCP
list on the router. It's modified from the standard copy that
Debian installs:

  127.0.0.1   localhost
  192.168.1.1 router.corp router
  192.168.1.2 cascade.corpcascade⁴
  192.168.1.14⁵   ahost.corp  ahost
  127.0.1.1   thishost.corp   thishost# 192.168.1.15⁶
  192.168.1.17bhost.corp  ahost
  192.168.1.12printer.corpprinter
  192.168.1.107   sometv.corp sometv
  192.168.1.184   somephone.corp  somephone
  [ … ]

  # The following lines are desirable for IPv6 capable hosts
  ::1 localhost ip6-localhost ip6-loopback
  ff02::1 ip6-allnodes
  ff02::2 ip6-allrouters

  127.0.0.1   [ 10k+ lines of junk domains⁶ ]

¹ eg:
  $ ip a
  1: lo:  mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group 
default qlen 1000
  link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
  inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo
 valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
  inet6 ::1/128 scope host 
 valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
  2: enp3s0:  mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state 
UP group default qlen 1000
  link/ether a4:12:34:56:78:90 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
  inet 192.168.1.14/24 brd 192.168.1.255 scope global dynamic enp3s0
 valid_lft 80638sec preferred_lft 80638sec
  inet6 fe80::a612:34ff:fe56:7890/64 scope link 
 valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
  $ ip r
  default via 192.168.1.1 dev enp3s0 
  192.168.1.0/24 dev enp3s0 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.1.14 
  $ 

² eg:
  $ grep -i -e avahi -e mdns -e dhclient /var/log/daemon.log | sed -e 's/^Feb 
11 08:18://;'
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: Internet Systems Consortium DHCP Client 4.4.1
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: Copyright 2004-2018 Internet Systems Consortium.
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: All rights reserved.
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: For info, please visit 
https://www.isc.org/software/dhcp/
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: 
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: Listening on LPF/enp3s0/a4:12:34:56:78:90
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: Sending on   LPF/enp3s0/a4:12:34:56:78:90
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: Sending on   Socket/fallback
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: DHCPDISCOVER on enp3s0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 
interval 3
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: DHCPDISCOVER on enp3s0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 
interval 8
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: DHCPOFFER of 192.168.1.14 from 192.168.1.1
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: DHCPREQUEST for 192.168.1.14 on enp3s0 to 
255.255.255.255 port 67
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: DHCPACK of 192.168.1.14 from 192.168.1.1
  35 ahost dhclient[550]: bound to 192.168.1.14 -- renewal in 38632 seconds.
  35 ahost systemd[1]: Listening on Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD Stack Activation Socket.
  35 ahost systemd[1]: Starting Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD Stack...
  43 ahost avahi-daemon[601]: Found user 'avahi' (UID 108) and group 'avahi' 
(GID 117).
  43 ahost avahi-daemon[601]: Successfully dropped root privileges.
  43 ahost avahi-daemon[601]: avahi-daemon 0.8 starting up.
  43 ahost avahi-daemon[601]: Successfully called chroot().

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 02:11:43PM +, Darac Marjal wrote:
> "mymachines" comes from libnss-mymachines:

> "myhostname" comes from libnss-myhostname:

Fascinating.  And confusing.

So, Gene's Armbian distribution uses those packages by default, and
Debian does not, right?

Either way, those entries are *after* "files" in Gene's nsswitch.conf, so
they shouldn't factor into his problem.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/10/23 08:05, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 05:58:07AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname


This is wrong.  I don't know where you got it from, but "mymachines"
and "myhostname" are not valid entries in this file.  NOT EVEN IF THEY
ARE FUCKING METASYNTACTIC PLACEHOLDERS for "coyote.den" and "lupus" or
whatever the FUCK your actual file says.

The instructions in nsswitch.conf are there to tell the name server
switch how to proceed.  It has a man page -- nsswitch.conf(5).  If you
don't want to read that man page, then AT THE VERY LEAST you should
leave the file alone.  Let it retain its default settings, which are:

hosts:  files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns

If you don't like that mdns4 thing because it's a cousin of Avahi
(apparently), then you could remove it, which would leave you with:

hosts:  files dns

That would be the minimal working configuration.


And unchanged since the armbian bullseye install back in October of the past
year.  If that is not correct, then point the finger of guilt at the
installer, not me.


I would imagine that if you were running REAL DEBIAN on these systems
(not Armbian, or Raspbian, or "this one guy's CNC build of something based
on Debian for Raspberry Pis"), and if the installer really did put this
nonsense in nsswitch.conf, other people would also have encountered
this problem by now.


gene@coyote:~$ ls -l /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 516 Oct 20 14:35 /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf
gene@coyote:~$
and the local network did not work on that machine until I added this to
resolv.conf, by making it a real file, not a link to some dynamic thing, and
of coarse added a chattr -i to it so network_mangler couldn't muck it up.



gene@bpi54:~$ cat /etc/resolv.conf
# Generated by NetworkManager
nameserver 192.168.nn.1
search hosts, nameserver


Your nameserver line is incorrect.  It has letters in the middle of the
IPv4 address, where there should only be digits.

YET ANOTHER FUCKING OBFUSCATING METASYNTACTIC PLACEHOLDER, no doubt.  Like
we CARE what subnet of 192.168 you used?  Like it's a god damned STATE
SECRET?  Jesus Christ.


My nsswitch.conf has that, the armbian version does,t. I haven't touched 
either one with an editor.



Now, ignoring that and moving on to the more interesting line

Citing resolv.conf(5):

search Search list for host-name lookup.
   By default, the search list contains one entry, the local domain
   name.   It  is  determined  from  the local hostname returned by
   gethostname(2); the local domain name is taken to be  everything
   after  the first '.'.  Finally, if the hostname does not contain
   a '.', the root domain is assumed as the local domain name.

   This may be changed by listing the desired  domain  search  path
   following  the search keyword with spaces or tabs separating the
   names.  Resolver queries having fewer than ndots  dots  (default
   is  1)  in  them  will  be attempted using each component of the
   search path in turn until a match is  found.

Oh, there's another piece I missed yesterday: we need to know the full
hostname on the "source" system.  So, include a paste of the "hostname"
command and its output as well.  It wouldn't hurt to add
"cat /etc/hostname" to the mix, too, since that's where Debian normally
defines the hostname.

If the documentation is to be believed, you have created a domain name
search path containing the two elements "hosts," and "nameserver".

Which means that if you were to type

getent hosts gene123

the resolver would perform lookups on "gene123.hosts," and
"gene123.nameserver" -- unless of course the entry with a literal comma
in it is rejected.  In that case, the documentation doesn't say what
should happen.

If your system interprets a malformed search line with a comma in it
as a deprecated legacy configuration mimicking what libc5 used to pull
out of /etc/host.conf then this is NOT documented, and you have stumbled
upon something magical by accident.

Sadly, you still haven't shown us the configuration of the system when
it's in the non-working state, which is what we need in order to try to
reproduce your results.

Given the limited information available, the only thing I can try to do
is reproduce your failing configuration using guesswork.

First guess: "mymachines" and "myhostname" are literal, not metasyntactic
obfuscations.

So, let me mangle my /etc/nsswitch.conf in this way and see what happens:


unicorn:~$ cat /etc/resolv.conf
search wooledge.org
nameserver 127.0.0.1
nameserver 10.0.0.1
nameserver 8.8.8.8
unicorn:~$ sudo vi /etc/nsswitch.conf
[sudo] password for greg:
unicorn:~$ grep ^hosts: /etc/nsswitch.conf
hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname
unicorn:~$ sudo vi /etc/hosts
unicorn:~$ grep gene /etc/hosts
11.12.13.14 hi

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/10/23 06:15, Carles Pina i Estany wrote:


Hi,

I'm just an interested reader (now writer?) of this thread and many
other threads here.

On Feb/10/2023, gene heskett wrote:


gene@coyote:~$ cat /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf:

# /etc/nsswitch.conf
#
# Example configuration of GNU Name Service Switch functionality.
# If you have the `glibc-doc-reference' and `info' packages installed, try:
# `info libc "Name Service Switch"' for information about this file.




gene@bpi54:~$ pinfo libc "name server switch"


I think that you intended to use "info", not "pinfo"?

No, that was 100% intentional. pinfo is a heck of a lot friendlier than 
info. I never install info. I've never figured out for sure what the 
next keypress in info is going to do.



For the rest: I will let others to follow up. I'm learning interesting
things in this (and other) threads.

Cheers,



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Tim Woodall]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, jeremy ardley wrote:


you can ping them as in

ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc



ooh, I didn't know that worked.

Same as
ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc%eth0

on my machines at least. No idea how it picks the interface when there's
more than one.

The interface seems mandatory for ssh for me:

tim@einstein(4):~ (none)$ ssh fe80::1
ssh: connect to host fe80::1 port 22: Invalid argument
tim@einstein(4):~ (none)$

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Darac Marjal]

On 10/02/2023 13:04, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 05:58:07AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname

This is wrong.  I don't know where you got it from, but "mymachines"
and "myhostname" are not valid entries in this file.  NOT EVEN IF THEY
ARE FUCKING METASYNTACTIC PLACEHOLDERS for "coyote.den" and "lupus" or
whatever the FUCK your actual file says.


They are if you have the correct NSS plugins available.

"mymachines" comes from libnss-mymachines:

   nss-mymachines is a plugin for the GNU Name Service Switch (NSS) 
functionality
   of the GNU C Library (glibc) providing hostname resolution for local 
containers
   that are registered with systemd-machined.service(8). The container 
names are
   resolved to IP addresses of the specific container, ordered by their 
scope.

   .
   Installing this package automatically adds mymachines to 
/etc/nsswitch.conf.


"myhostname" comes from libnss-myhostname:

   This package contains a plugin for the Name Service Switch, 
providing host
   name resolution for the locally configured system hostname as 
returned by
   gethostname(2). It returns all locally configured public IP 
addresses or -- if

   none are configured, the IPv4 address 127.0.1.1 (which is on the local
   loopback) and the IPv6 address ::1 (which is the local host).
   .
   A lot of software relies on that the local host name is resolvable. This
   package provides an alternative to the fragile and error-prone 
manual editing

   of /etc/hosts.
   .
   Installing this package automatically adds myhostname to 
/etc/nsswitch.conf.


There are several other NSS plugins, offering a variety of methods of 
discovering "names": https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=libnss-


Note that the package descriptions explicitly state that just installing 
the plugins will activate them; I don't know if uninstalling them 
removes the entry in /etc/nsswitch.conf (I would hope so).


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Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Reco]

Hi.

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 08:04:38AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 05:58:07AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname
> 
> This is wrong.

You're correct, but for the wrong reason.

> I don't know where you got it from, but "mymachines"
> and "myhostname" are not valid entries in this file.

On the contrary.

apt show libnss-myhostname libnss-mymachines

Why would anyone in their sane mind willingly install those is another
question :)

Reco

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 05:58:07AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname

This is wrong.  I don't know where you got it from, but "mymachines"
and "myhostname" are not valid entries in this file.  NOT EVEN IF THEY
ARE FUCKING METASYNTACTIC PLACEHOLDERS for "coyote.den" and "lupus" or
whatever the FUCK your actual file says.

The instructions in nsswitch.conf are there to tell the name server
switch how to proceed.  It has a man page -- nsswitch.conf(5).  If you
don't want to read that man page, then AT THE VERY LEAST you should
leave the file alone.  Let it retain its default settings, which are:

hosts:  files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns

If you don't like that mdns4 thing because it's a cousin of Avahi
(apparently), then you could remove it, which would leave you with:

hosts:  files dns

That would be the minimal working configuration.

> And unchanged since the armbian bullseye install back in October of the past
> year.  If that is not correct, then point the finger of guilt at the
> installer, not me.

I would imagine that if you were running REAL DEBIAN on these systems
(not Armbian, or Raspbian, or "this one guy's CNC build of something based
on Debian for Raspberry Pis"), and if the installer really did put this
nonsense in nsswitch.conf, other people would also have encountered
this problem by now.

> gene@coyote:~$ ls -l /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf
> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 516 Oct 20 14:35 /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf
> gene@coyote:~$
> and the local network did not work on that machine until I added this to
> resolv.conf, by making it a real file, not a link to some dynamic thing, and
> of coarse added a chattr -i to it so network_mangler couldn't muck it up.

> gene@bpi54:~$ cat /etc/resolv.conf
> # Generated by NetworkManager
> nameserver 192.168.nn.1
> search hosts, nameserver

Your nameserver line is incorrect.  It has letters in the middle of the
IPv4 address, where there should only be digits.

YET ANOTHER FUCKING OBFUSCATING METASYNTACTIC PLACEHOLDER, no doubt.  Like
we CARE what subnet of 192.168 you used?  Like it's a god damned STATE
SECRET?  Jesus Christ.

Now, ignoring that and moving on to the more interesting line

Citing resolv.conf(5):

   search Search list for host-name lookup.
  By default, the search list contains one entry, the local domain
  name.   It  is  determined  from  the local hostname returned by
  gethostname(2); the local domain name is taken to be  everything
  after  the first '.'.  Finally, if the hostname does not contain
  a '.', the root domain is assumed as the local domain name.

  This may be changed by listing the desired  domain  search  path
  following  the search keyword with spaces or tabs separating the
  names.  Resolver queries having fewer than ndots  dots  (default
  is  1)  in  them  will  be attempted using each component of the
  search path in turn until a match is  found.

Oh, there's another piece I missed yesterday: we need to know the full
hostname on the "source" system.  So, include a paste of the "hostname"
command and its output as well.  It wouldn't hurt to add
"cat /etc/hostname" to the mix, too, since that's where Debian normally
defines the hostname.

If the documentation is to be believed, you have created a domain name
search path containing the two elements "hosts," and "nameserver".

Which means that if you were to type

getent hosts gene123

the resolver would perform lookups on "gene123.hosts," and
"gene123.nameserver" -- unless of course the entry with a literal comma
in it is rejected.  In that case, the documentation doesn't say what
should happen.

If your system interprets a malformed search line with a comma in it
as a deprecated legacy configuration mimicking what libc5 used to pull
out of /etc/host.conf then this is NOT documented, and you have stumbled
upon something magical by accident.

Sadly, you still haven't shown us the configuration of the system when
it's in the non-working state, which is what we need in order to try to
reproduce your results.

Given the limited information available, the only thing I can try to do
is reproduce your failing configuration using guesswork.

First guess: "mymachines" and "myhostname" are literal, not metasyntactic
obfuscations.

So, let me mangle my /etc/nsswitch.conf in this way and see what happens:


unicorn:~$ cat /etc/resolv.conf
search wooledge.org
nameserver 127.0.0.1
nameserver 10.0.0.1
nameserver 8.8.8.8
unicorn:~$ sudo vi /etc/nsswitch.conf
[sudo] password for greg: 
unicorn:~$ grep ^hosts: /etc/nsswitch.conf 
hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname
unicorn:~$ sudo vi /etc/hosts
unicorn:~$ grep gene /etc/hosts
11.12.13.14 hi.gene hi
unicorn:~$ getent hosts hi.gene
11.12.13.14 hi.gene hi
unicorn:~$ ping hi.gene
PING hi.gene (11.12.13.14) 56(84) bytes of 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Carles Pina i Estany]

Hi,

On Feb/10/2023, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> > > gene@bpi54:~$ pinfo libc "name server switch"
> > 
> > I think that you intended to use "info", not "pinfo"?
> 
> pinfo is a program (part of the like-named package) for people who
> want to miss what info has to offer -- uh -- an alternative user
> interface to info.

:-) apt install pinfo and yes, it works for me... one more thing that
I've learnt today (I should have checked!).

-- 
Carles Pina i Estany
https://carles.pina.cat || Wiktionary translations: https://kamus.pina.cat

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 11:05:22AM +, Carles Pina i Estany wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm just an interested reader (now writer?) of this thread and many
> other threads here.
> 
> On Feb/10/2023, gene heskett wrote:
> 
> > gene@coyote:~$ cat /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf:
> > 
> > # /etc/nsswitch.conf
> > #
> > # Example configuration of GNU Name Service Switch functionality.
> > # If you have the `glibc-doc-reference' and `info' packages installed, try:
> > # `info libc "Name Service Switch"' for information about this file.
> 
> 
> > gene@bpi54:~$ pinfo libc "name server switch"
> 
> I think that you intended to use "info", not "pinfo"?

pinfo is a program (part of the like-named package) for people who
want to miss what info has to offer -- uh -- an alternative user
interface to info.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Carles Pina i Estany]

Hi,

I'm just an interested reader (now writer?) of this thread and many
other threads here.

On Feb/10/2023, gene heskett wrote:

> gene@coyote:~$ cat /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf:
> 
> # /etc/nsswitch.conf
> #
> # Example configuration of GNU Name Service Switch functionality.
> # If you have the `glibc-doc-reference' and `info' packages installed, try:
> # `info libc "Name Service Switch"' for information about this file.


> gene@bpi54:~$ pinfo libc "name server switch"

I think that you intended to use "info", not "pinfo"?

For the rest: I will let others to follow up. I'm learning interesting
things in this (and other) threads.

Cheers,

-- 
Carles Pina i Estany
https://carles.pina.cat || Wiktionary translations: https://kamus.pina.cat

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[jeremy ardley]

On 10/2/23 19:03, gene heskett wrote:


Chuckle, guilty Tomas, but NM has now been muffled and no longer yells 
at you via the logs when it find's a chattr +i denying its ability to 
impregnate the lassie. 


I personally eradicate NM and use either systemd-networkd on debian, or 
networking service on non systemd devices.


NM is truely awful.

Jeremy

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/10/23 00:48, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 04:22:52PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:

has worked very well since redhat 5.0 in 1998.  The only thing I do is
a chattr +i on resolv.conf so network mangler can't putz with it. And


That kind of quick&dirty hack is fairly dangerous in the long run: as
they accumulate, they increase the risk that one of them will lead to
a completely unexpected behavior that nobody can predict/understand.


I have used that as a debugging device though: do the chattr and watch
the culprit screaming bloody murder in the logs.

Gives some amount of evil satisfaction ;-)


Chuckle, guilty Tomas, but NM has now been muffled and no longer yells 
at you via the logs when it find's a chattr +i denying its ability to 
impregnate the lassie.


So there is that.


Cheers


Take care and stay well, Tomas

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/10/23 00:45, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 05:17:42PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

On 2/9/23 15:57, Greg Wooledge wrote:


[...]


Maybe I am the last on the planet still using hosts files [...]


Nonsense. I do use /etc/hosts profusely. If you have the right
incantation in /etc/nsswitch.conf (as Greg has said a couple
of times here) it should Just Work (TM).

Cheers


Ahh, but Tomas, the installer it appears is wrong, it doesn't Just Work. 
And ANAICT, no one has said what the "right" incantation is.


here is the nsswitch.conf from that machine:
gene@coyote:~$ cat /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf:

# /etc/nsswitch.conf
#
# Example configuration of GNU Name Service Switch functionality.
# If you have the `glibc-doc-reference' and `info' packages installed, try:
# `info libc "Name Service Switch"' for information about this file.

passwd: files
group:  files
shadow: files
gshadow:files

hosts:  files mymachines dns myhostname
networks:   files

protocols:  db files
services:   db files
ethers: db files
rpc:db files

netgroup:   nis

And unchanged since the armbian bullseye install back in October of the 
past year.  If that is not correct, then point the finger of guilt at 
the installer, not me.


gene@coyote:~$ ls -l /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 516 Oct 20 14:35 /sshnet/bpi54/etc/nsswitch.conf
gene@coyote:~$
and the local network did not work on that machine until I added this to 
resolv.conf, by making it a real file, not a link to some dynamic thing, 
and of coarse added a chattr -i to it so network_mangler couldn't muck 
it up.


resolv.conf on all my machines looks like this, and is a real file:
gene@bpi54:~$ cat /etc/resolv.conf
# Generated by NetworkManager
nameserver 192.168.nn.1
search hosts, nameserver

and local network is not resolvable w/o that 2nd line on any machine 
here. nameserver is dd-wrt, which forwards dns queries to my ISP. Who 
has no knowledge of whats behind my fixed, registered with namecheap, 
ipv4 address. Pinging the link in my sig will give you that.


Now, I'm blind again, the installer did not install the tools to 
troubleshoot this even If I knew how to, neither info nor pinfo is 
installed, so I just added pinfo, but get this because the installer 
didn't install any docs.

gene@bpi54:~$ pinfo libc "name server switch"
Przemek's Info Viewer v0.6.13
Error: could not open info file, trying manual
Error: No manual page found

I rest my case. If something comes by to fix it. let me know. This 
subject/thread is done until it Just Works OOTB. 24 years now I have 
been making my local net work. And in that 24 years, there have been 
tweeks offered like networkmangler. Which early on turned into a 
headache they have not invented a pill for. Yet...


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Felix Miata]

tomas@... composed on 2023-02-10 06:47 (UTC+0100):

> On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 16:22:52 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> > has worked very well since redhat 5.0 in 1998.  The only thing I do is
>> > a chattr +i on resolv.conf so network mangler can't putz with it. And

>> That kind of quick&dirty hack is fairly dangerous in the long run: as
>> they accumulate, they increase the risk that one of them will lead to
>> a completely unexpected behavior that nobody can predict/understand.

> I have used that as a debugging device though: do the chattr and watch
> the culprit screaming bloody murder in the logs.

> Gives some amount of evil satisfaction ;-)

Prezactly! No putzing with /MY/ computer! :-D
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:16:49PM -0500, Dan Ritter wrote:
> gene heskett wrote: 
> > 
> > Chuckle... I might, but there also several switches in this lashup, the main
> > one claims to be managed but the other 2 are just glorified hubs. There's
> > even another router out in the shed but its running as a hub, radio turned
> > off just as are all the others here. They either come in on the cable modem
> > thru the NAT to get to my web page, or they don't get in. Nice cozy
> > feeling
> 
> The good news here is that your switches and hubs operate on
> the ethernet level, not the IP level, so they don't care whether
> they are passing IPv4 or IPv6 or something stranger.

I'll believe they aren't switches when I see they are not generating
layer three traffic ;-)

> A management interface on a switch might be IPv4 only, if it's
> particularly old.

The question would be if such a switch can "do" v6 nevertheless...

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 02:46:51PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 2/9/23 04:13, Anssi Saari wrote:

[...]

> > I don't know why though. The other IPv6 access I have is through a VPN
> > and there, for privacy, of course my connection is NATted to the same
> > exit IPv6 address as everyone else's. IPv6 defines the range fc00::/7 as
> > unique local addresses which are similar to IPv4 private network ranges
> > and I get a local IPv6 address from that range from the VPN server.
> > 
> > .
> And where is that info published? Up till now I was not aware of an ipv6 equ
> to 192.168.xx.xx addresses.  That could make the cheese quite a bit less
> binding. :o)>

Not "equ" but just "similar". They are called "unique local addresses",
and, as always, Wikipedia [1] is your friend. You can go from there to
the relevant RFCs if you want *all* the gories. Wikipedia's IPv6 entry
[2] is highly recommended.

Yes, that info is published.

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unique_local_address
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6
-- 
t


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Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 04:22:52PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > has worked very well since redhat 5.0 in 1998.  The only thing I do is
> > a chattr +i on resolv.conf so network mangler can't putz with it. And
> 
> That kind of quick&dirty hack is fairly dangerous in the long run: as
> they accumulate, they increase the risk that one of them will lead to
> a completely unexpected behavior that nobody can predict/understand.

I have used that as a debugging device though: do the chattr and watch
the culprit screaming bloody murder in the logs.

Gives some amount of evil satisfaction ;-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 05:17:42PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 2/9/23 15:57, Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

> Maybe I am the last on the planet still using hosts files [...]

Nonsense. I do use /etc/hosts profusely. If you have the right
incantation in /etc/nsswitch.conf (as Greg has said a couple
of times here) it should Just Work (TM).

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[tomas]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:32:46PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 2/9/23 07:53, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 07:32:18AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > (I have no idea what mdns4_minimal is, but Debian put it there, and it
> > > hasn't caused a problem yet so I left it alone.)
> > 
> > This is a zeroconf thingy. My box hasn't that, because I banned Avahi
> > and its ilk long ago.
> > 
> > Just out of curiosity: does your box have one of those funny link-local
> > IPv4 169.254.xxx.yyy addresses?
> > 
> > Cheers
> 
> rant on:
> 
> Same here Tomas, anytime I see one of those  addresses, avahi is another
> NSFW word, and it goes out by way of rm [...]

Dunno. Debian here. I just don't install it. Works :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 05:17:42PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> Maybe I am the last on the planet still using hosts files, but I doubt that

You are not.  Some of my systems at work use them.  Technically, they
*all* do if you count the mandatory entries for the NIS servers.

> I also think it would be foolhardy to publish all that on a public list.

All you need to do is find ONE computer which can't ping one OTHER
computer, due to name lookup failure.

This gives us two hostnames.  The one you're typing the commands on,
and the one you're trying to ping.  Let's call them "source" and "dest".

We don't care ANYTHING about how dest is configured.  It's totally
irrelevant.  "dest" doesn't even have to exist.  It could be entirely
imaginary.  All that matters is "source" THINKS it exists.

What we care about is how "source" is configured.  So, we'll want the
version of Debian that it's running, and then the following:

1) A paste of you running "ping dest" and the resulting output.

2) A paste of you running "getent hosts dest" and the resulting output.

3) A paste of "grep hosts: /etc/nsswitch.conf".

4) A paste of "grep -i dest /etc/hosts".

5) A paste of "cat /etc/host.conf".

6) A paste of "cat /etc/resolv.conf".

Just now, on my own system, I did an "strace getent hosts gene" to see
what files it looks at.  The results were surprising.

The first file it looks at (besides libraries and locale stuff) is
/etc/host.conf.  The second file it looks at is /etc/resolv.conf.  The
third is /etc/nsswitch.conf.  The fourth is /etc/hosts.  (It actually
opens this one twice, and I have no idea why.)

This tells me that my knowledge of Linux name resolution is incomplete.
Clearly there're some things I still need to learn, and I'm happy to
do that.

If you'd like us to help you solve your name resolution problem while
we're learning, we're going to need all of the relevant details.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/9/23 17:41, jeremy ardley wrote:


On 10/2/23 05:32, Michel Verdier wrote:

Le 9 février 2023 gene heskett a écrit :

And where is that info published? Up till now I was not aware of an 
ipv6 equ

to 192.168.xx.xx addresses.  That could make the cheese quite a bit less
binding. :o)>

You could find a nice list here:
https://www.apnic.net/get-ip/faqs/what-is-an-ip-address/ipv6-address-types/

Every IPv6 aware interface will generate a fixed IP address in addition 
to any configured by DHCP or DNS or configuration file.


It's of the form fe80:

If you use command

ip a

You will see the fe80 addresses assigned to the interfaces.

you can ping them as in

ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc

you can ssh to them

ssh username@fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc

you can add them to /etc/hosts

fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc my_file_server_1

and then ssh to them as

ssh username@my_file_server_1

or ping my_file_server_1

So without any infrastructure at all you too can be using ipv6

Jeremy

Possibly enlightening experience, AFTER I remove the # comments in front 
of the ipv6 stuff the installer put there and reboot.


Thank you Jeremy.

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/9/23 16:33, Michel Verdier wrote:

Le 9 février 2023 gene heskett a écrit :


And where is that info published? Up till now I was not aware of an ipv6 equ
to 192.168.xx.xx addresses.  That could make the cheese quite a bit less
binding. :o)>


You could find a nice list here:
https://www.apnic.net/get-ip/faqs/what-is-an-ip-address/ipv6-address-types/

.

Interesting, bookmarked FFS.   Thank you Michel.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[jeremy ardley]

On 10/2/23 05:32, Michel Verdier wrote:

Le 9 février 2023 gene heskett a écrit :


And where is that info published? Up till now I was not aware of an ipv6 equ
to 192.168.xx.xx addresses.  That could make the cheese quite a bit less
binding. :o)>

You could find a nice list here:
https://www.apnic.net/get-ip/faqs/what-is-an-ip-address/ipv6-address-types/

Every IPv6 aware interface will generate a fixed IP address in addition 
to any configured by DHCP or DNS or configuration file.


It's of the form fe80:

If you use command

ip a

You will see the fe80 addresses assigned to the interfaces.

you can ping them as in

ping fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc

you can ssh to them

ssh username@fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc

you can add them to /etc/hosts

fe80::87d:c6ff:fea4:a6fc my_file_server_1

and then ssh to them as

ssh username@my_file_server_1

or ping my_file_server_1

So without any infrastructure at all you too can be using ipv6

Jeremy

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/9/23 15:57, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:47:37PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

you refuse to answer the question asked. from that machine to any other
machine on my net "ssh -Y othermachines' alias as shown in the hosts file..
response was not found.  Ditto for a ping unless I gave ping the actual ipv4
address.


ping and ssh are both dynamically linked against libc6 on Debian, and
have been for a very long time.  They should therefore be using the libc6
resolver code.  They should be following the DOCUMENTED rules for name
resolution, beginning with nsswitch.conf.

If you believe you've found a bug in the libc6 name resolver, that
would be a very important bug to get fixed.  Therefore, it would be
extremely helpful if you could describe how to reproduce your results.
We need ALL the details.  Every single piece of the puzzle, please.

I have showno that on my Debian 11 system, without any of your
/etc/host.conf style configuration in /etc/resolv.conf, everything works
as I expect, and as the documentation describes.

You have not shown anything similar on your computer, which is (so far
as we're aware) the ONLY Debian computer in the whole world having this
problem.

.
Maybe I am the last on the planet still using hosts files, but I doubt 
that as I know of a business with a block of 16 addresses still using 
hosts files. Has for nearly 30 years as we were the first tv station in 
the country to setup a web page, letting folks dial it up and read the 
news about 5 minutes after it aired. On a dialup circuit with an amiga 
2000.  So I am not new to this networking thing.


I also think it would be foolhardy to publish all that on a public list.
nuff said. I also think its a waste of resources to run a dns server on 
everything here, when a perfectly functional dns is 22 milliseconds away 
at my isp. /etc/nsswitch.conf has 10 active lines. probably unmodified 
since the bullseye install. And none of it makes any sense to me.  There 
is absolutely nothing in any of the man pages that could actually be 
used to fix a problem. My way Just Works provided avahi is rm'd. 
Security by obscurity is not an answer.  Rewrite the man pages to 
explain exactly what is going on if you want to teach us how to fix our 
own problems. What works for me make sense, which is a hell of a lot 
more than I can say for the man pages on this stuff. And with that, I'm 
out of here.


Take care and stay well Greg.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Michel Verdier]

Le 9 février 2023 gene heskett a écrit :

> And where is that info published? Up till now I was not aware of an ipv6 equ
> to 192.168.xx.xx addresses.  That could make the cheese quite a bit less
> binding. :o)>

You could find a nice list here:
https://www.apnic.net/get-ip/faqs/what-is-an-ip-address/ipv6-address-types/

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 04:22:52PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > has worked very well since redhat 5.0 in 1998.  The only thing I do is
> > a chattr +i on resolv.conf so network mangler can't putz with it. And
> 
> That kind of quick&dirty hack is fairly dangerous in the long run: as
> they accumulate, they increase the risk that one of them will lead to
> a completely unexpected behavior that nobody can predict/understand.
> 
> Quick&dirty hacks are very handy, and I use them on a regular basis, but
> if experience has taught me anything its that they have to be short term
> and hence accompanied with a parallel effort to try&fix the origin of
> the problem.

More to the point, it's not causing Gene's problem with ping and ssh
name resolution.

unicorn:~$ lsattr /etc/resolv.conf
i-e--- /etc/resolv.conf

I have the same setup.  Whatever is different about Gene's system to
cause the issues he's seeing is something else.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Stefan Monnier]

> has worked very well since redhat 5.0 in 1998.  The only thing I do is
> a chattr +i on resolv.conf so network mangler can't putz with it. And

That kind of quick&dirty hack is fairly dangerous in the long run: as
they accumulate, they increase the risk that one of them will lead to
a completely unexpected behavior that nobody can predict/understand.

Quick&dirty hacks are very handy, and I use them on a regular basis, but
if experience has taught me anything its that they have to be short term
and hence accompanied with a parallel effort to try&fix the origin of
the problem.


Stefan

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:47:37PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> you refuse to answer the question asked. from that machine to any other
> machine on my net "ssh -Y othermachines' alias as shown in the hosts file..
> response was not found.  Ditto for a ping unless I gave ping the actual ipv4
> address.

ping and ssh are both dynamically linked against libc6 on Debian, and
have been for a very long time.  They should therefore be using the libc6
resolver code.  They should be following the DOCUMENTED rules for name
resolution, beginning with nsswitch.conf.

If you believe you've found a bug in the libc6 name resolver, that
would be a very important bug to get fixed.  Therefore, it would be
extremely helpful if you could describe how to reproduce your results.
We need ALL the details.  Every single piece of the puzzle, please.

I have showno that on my Debian 11 system, without any of your
/etc/host.conf style configuration in /etc/resolv.conf, everything works
as I expect, and as the documentation describes.

You have not shown anything similar on your computer, which is (so far
as we're aware) the ONLY Debian computer in the whole world having this
problem.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/9/23 15:19, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:02:22PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

Just last week I added another bpi5, copied the /etc/hosts file and
restarted networking. It could NOT find the other machines on my net UNTIL I
added that search directive to resolv.conf.  This net is about 50/50 buster
and bullseye.


Define "find".  What command did you run?  What was the result?  What
were all of the relevant pieces of the name lookup configuration at
that moment?

unicorn:~$ grep hosts: /etc/nsswitch.conf
hosts:  files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns
unicorn:~$ cat /etc/resolv.conf
search wooledge.org
nameserver 127.0.0.1
nameserver 10.0.0.1
nameserver 8.8.8.8
unicorn:~$ grep gene /etc/hosts
11.12.13.14 hi.gene
unicorn:~$ getent hosts hi.gene
11.12.13.14 hi.gene
unicorn:~$ ping hi.gene
PING hi.gene (11.12.13.14) 56(84) bytes of data.
^C
--- hi.gene ping statistics ---
2 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 1002ms

If "find" for you means "I ran a CnC program that was written in 1995
and is a statically linked binary" then it's conceivable that it would
be looking for /etc/host.conf definitions, because it was statically
linked with libc5 resolver code.  In that case, I would expect that
adding the proper libc5 setup in /etc/host.conf would cause it to start
working.

Is it POSSIBLE that the libc5 resolver code from the mid 1990s would
also look for host.conf stuff in resolv.conf?  Uh... maybe, I don't know.
Who the hell knows.  We would have to have your program (or something
from that age) to test with.  Maybe strace it and see what it does.

But I can't imagine why you would go against all of the documented
practices of the time, and put the configuration in the wrong file.
Even in this incredibly hypothetical case.

There was also a libc4, but I don't remember how it worked.  It was
much, much too long ago.  Early 1990s.  If what you're doing is from
the libc4 days, then I will apologize.  But you've gotta find a single
piece of documentation that supports what you're doing.

.
you refuse to answer the question asked. from that machine to any other 
machine on my net "ssh -Y othermachines' alias as shown in the hosts 
file.. response was not found.  Ditto for a ping unless I gave ping the 
actual ipv4 address.


This is all faily modern 64 bit hardware, all boxes are running an ssh 
server and are accessible via an sshfs mount.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Dan Ritter]

gene heskett wrote: 
> 
> Chuckle... I might, but there also several switches in this lashup, the main
> one claims to be managed but the other 2 are just glorified hubs. There's
> even another router out in the shed but its running as a hub, radio turned
> off just as are all the others here. They either come in on the cable modem
> thru the NAT to get to my web page, or they don't get in. Nice cozy
> feeling

The good news here is that your switches and hubs operate on
the ethernet level, not the IP level, so they don't care whether
they are passing IPv4 or IPv6 or something stranger.

A management interface on a switch might be IPv4 only, if it's
particularly old.

-dsr-

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/9/23 07:53, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 07:32:18AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]


(I have no idea what mdns4_minimal is, but Debian put it there, and it
hasn't caused a problem yet so I left it alone.)


This is a zeroconf thingy. My box hasn't that, because I banned Avahi
and its ilk long ago.

Just out of curiosity: does your box have one of those funny link-local
IPv4 169.254.xxx.yyy addresses?

Cheers


rant on:

Same here Tomas, anytime I see one of those  addresses, avahi is another 
NSFW word, and it goes out by way of rm. That thing has caused me enough 
trouble to last a lifetime, insisting on making that 169.xx.xx.xx  the 
default route. And regardless of the magic you put in 
/etc/network/interfaces, it cannot be removed by anything but rm. When 
its there, you can't even post a message asking how to get rid of it 
legally. I'll not name names here because it would trigger another war. 
BETTER YET GET RID OF ITS DEPENDENCY'S so the package manager won't tear 
the system out by its roots removing in it. Better yet, nuke the 
repository that holds its master copy.


/rant off.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 03:02:22PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> Just last week I added another bpi5, copied the /etc/hosts file and
> restarted networking. It could NOT find the other machines on my net UNTIL I
> added that search directive to resolv.conf.  This net is about 50/50 buster
> and bullseye.

Define "find".  What command did you run?  What was the result?  What
were all of the relevant pieces of the name lookup configuration at
that moment?

unicorn:~$ grep hosts: /etc/nsswitch.conf 
hosts:  files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns
unicorn:~$ cat /etc/resolv.conf
search wooledge.org
nameserver 127.0.0.1
nameserver 10.0.0.1
nameserver 8.8.8.8
unicorn:~$ grep gene /etc/hosts
11.12.13.14 hi.gene
unicorn:~$ getent hosts hi.gene
11.12.13.14 hi.gene
unicorn:~$ ping hi.gene
PING hi.gene (11.12.13.14) 56(84) bytes of data.
^C
--- hi.gene ping statistics ---
2 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 1002ms

If "find" for you means "I ran a CnC program that was written in 1995
and is a statically linked binary" then it's conceivable that it would
be looking for /etc/host.conf definitions, because it was statically
linked with libc5 resolver code.  In that case, I would expect that
adding the proper libc5 setup in /etc/host.conf would cause it to start
working.

Is it POSSIBLE that the libc5 resolver code from the mid 1990s would
also look for host.conf stuff in resolv.conf?  Uh... maybe, I don't know.
Who the hell knows.  We would have to have your program (or something
from that age) to test with.  Maybe strace it and see what it does.

But I can't imagine why you would go against all of the documented
practices of the time, and put the configuration in the wrong file.
Even in this incredibly hypothetical case.

There was also a libc4, but I don't remember how it worked.  It was
much, much too long ago.  Early 1990s.  If what you're doing is from
the libc4 days, then I will apologize.  But you've gotta find a single
piece of documentation that supports what you're doing.

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/9/23 07:32, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 02:54:01AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

Where you run a dns of sorts, I don't, resolv.conf says check host first,
then query the router which forwards it to the nameserver at my isp.


Gene, we've been over this MANY times in the last several years.  I'll
repeat it once more here:

Whatever you think you've done in resolv.conf to change the name service
order has NO EFFECT in reality.  You are conflating things from the old
libc5 days with their modern equivalents, and you've got them all mixed
together in a nonsense configuration.

And every time I tell you this, it just slides right off.  Nevertheless,
I'm trying again.

Name service switch configuration in the modern libc6 days is contained
in the /etc/nsswitch.conf file.  This is where your system defines
"local files first, then DNS" or whatever other order you want.

It USED TO BE in the /etc/host.conf file.  See for example
, last updated in 1996.

Somehow, you have taken configuration that would have been in the
/etc/host.conf file in 1996, and moved it to /etc/resolv.conf on
your system, and you have convinced yourself that this actually does
something.

Name service order is defined by the "hosts:" line in /etc/nsswitch.conf.
Mine says this:

unicorn:~$ grep hosts /etc/nsswitch.conf
hosts:  files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns

which means "local files first, then this mdns4_minimal thing, and if
that says notfound, then stop and use that result, but if it doesn't
work at all, then use DNS".

(I have no idea what mdns4_minimal is, but Debian put it there, and it
hasn't caused a problem yet so I left it alone.)

The /etc/resolv.conf file is used by the DNS resolver, to decide what
nameserver(s) to use (their IP addresses must be listed), and in some
cases, what domain names to append to the input, and when to append
them (or not append them).

unicorn:~$ cat /etc/resolv.conf
search wooledge.org
nameserver 127.0.0.1
nameserver 10.0.0.1
nameserver 8.8.8.8

Mine says "append .wooledge.org to any name without any dots in it, and
try the nameserver at 127.0.0.1 first, then the nameserver at 10.0.0.1,
and finally the nameserver at 8.8.8.8".

I use this nameserver configuration because I run a dnscache locally
(127.0.0.1) which should be the primary and preferred source of DNS
information.  But if for some reason that's not available, it should
try the router's forwarding nameserver (10.0.0.1), which is configured
by my ISP's DHCP server, and forwards to my ISP.  And if *that's* not
available or not working, then fall back to Google's 8.8.8.8 nameserver
as the last resort.

I also go out of my way to ensure that this file is never modified
by anything other than me.  This is not a laptop or a phone.  It
doesn't move around to various networks, so I don't want a dynamic
nameserver configuration.  I want THIS configuration, at all times,
period.  If anyone else wants help doing that, see
.

.
Yes Greg, you keep telling me that. But I'm in the process of bringing 
up a 3dprinter farm, each printer with a bpi5 to manage octoprint. Joing 
the other 4 on this net running buster and linuxcnc.


Just last week I added another bpi5, copied the /etc/hosts file and 
restarted networking. It could NOT find the other machines on my net 
UNTIL I added that search directive to resolv.conf.  This net is about 
50/50 buster and bullseye.


If what you say is true, that should not have been the fix, so explain 
again why its not working, cuz it is.



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ipv6 maybe has arrived.

[gene heskett]

On 2/9/23 04:13, Anssi Saari wrote:

jeremy ardley  writes:


In the case of adding IPv6 without NAT, then without a firewall, external 
baddies can connect unsolicited to your internal devices. Some of your devices 
will
have their own personal firewalls already, e.g. any windows machine. Some 
won't, e.g. a printer. In the printer case it would be unfortunate if your 
printer
suddenly started printing out obscenites.. You get the picture.


One point about the IPv6 without NAT: for external connectivity, you
still need to explicitly allow IP forwarding in the *router* and also in
the router's firewall. In Linux terms of course, but Gene said he has
dd-wrt in his router.

If forwarding is not enabled, then the LAN IPv6 hosts are just as
isolated from incoming traffic from the internet as hosts behind NAT.

This was a happy revelation when I started playing with IPv6 last
year. Mostly because systemd-networkd grew built in 6rd support and
that's all my extremely backward ISP does for IPv6 so it was super easy
to try.


The other option of NAT for your IPv6 is frowned on


I don't know why though. The other IPv6 access I have is through a VPN
and there, for privacy, of course my connection is NATted to the same
exit IPv6 address as everyone else's. IPv6 defines the range fc00::/7 as
unique local addresses which are similar to IPv4 private network ranges
and I get a local IPv6 address from that range from the VPN server.

.
And where is that info published? Up till now I was not aware of an ipv6 
equ to 192.168.xx.xx addresses.  That could make the cheese quite a bit 
less binding. :o)>


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page