Microsoft Power BI Users Contact List

[Meghan Hudson]

Hello,



Hope you're having a great day!



I just wanted to know if you're looking to acquire Microsoft Power BI Users 
Contact List for your marketing efforts?



Other BI users like: Sisense, Dundas BI, IBM Cognos Analytics, SAP Business 
Objects, Tableau, Qlik Sense, QlikView, SAP Crystal Reports, WebFOCUS, Splunk 
Enterprise, Oracle BI, Salesforce Analytics Cloud, TIBCO Spotfire, 
MicroStrategy Analytics, SAP Lumira, Infor BI, and many more...



Other Microsoft Product Users like: Microsoft Azure, Microsoft Dynamics 365, 
Microsoft Dynamics CRM, Microsoft Dynamics ERP, Microsoft Dynamics GP, 
Microsoft Dynamics RMS, Microsoft Dynamics SL, Microsoft Hyper-V, Microsoft 
Office, Microsoft SharePoint, Microsoft Skype for Business, Microsoft Visio, 
Windows XP, and many more...



Information Field: Names, Title, Email, Phone, Company Name, Company URL, 
Company physical address, SIC Code, Industry and Company Size (Revenue and 
Employee).



Kindly review and let me know of your target interest so that I can get back to 
you with the exact counts and sample file.



Do let me know if you have any questions for me.



Regards,

Meghan Hudson

Database Executive

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Planirate kupovinu PVC stolarije? Ovo bi trebalo da znate...

[Neo-Frame doo]

Kao kupac PVC stolarije trebalo bi da znate i sledeće - danas se na tržištu 
Srbije jasno izdvajaju dve kategorije PVC stolarije (sa raznim brojem komora):
 
1. PVC stolarija bez garancije (često i sa lažnom etiketom 'Nemačka') - cenom 
je jako primamljiva jer su poneki prozori iz ove kategorije čak i 80% jeftiniji 
nego isti u sledećoj a prodaje se i u velikim hipermarketima i na stovarištima. 
To je postignuto tako što se često isporučuje bez skupljih delova okova 
(cilindri,kvake), bez usluge montaže i prevoza - to je ono što možete i sami 
videti. Ono što se ne vidi jesu stanjeni zidovi PVC profila (2 - 2,2mm), 
izostavljno čelično ojačanje na rasponima koji bi trebali da ga imaju, možda 
izostavljeni i neki od skupljih aditiva u PVC smesi (šta će tek zub vremena 
pokazati), okov za koji se ne zna koliko će izdržati na testu zamora 
materijala... Na kraju svega ako neko tvrdi da je to proizvod vrhunskih osobina 
zašto ne stane garancijom iza njega !?

2. PVC stolarija sa garancijom (delimičnom ili punom) - u ovoj grupi PVC 
stolarija se prodaje sa garancijom na pojedine materijale (PVC profile, okov, 
staklo) ili na kompletan proizvod. Tako možete naći da neko daje 10 godina 
garancije u reklami, ali ćete napismeno dobiti samo garanciju na PVC profile 
koju u toj dužini daju svi ozbiljniji proizvođači profila (da neće doći do 
hemijskih, mehaničkih i vizuelnih promena) - to vas ne štiti od uvijanja 
profila sa stanjenim zidovima, tzv. B-klasom profila koju su u poslednje vreme 
izbacili većina renomiranih evropskih proizvođača, a koju plasiraju obilato van 
EU. A šta je sa ostale dve komponente? Da li je okov loš i da li su metalna 
ojačanja ugrađena gde je trebalo? Da li je staklo loše spojeno pa se posle 2-3 
godine dogodi da između stakala zaznoji? Ima i prevaranata koji će vam dati sve 
garancije pa zatvoriti firmu posle 2 godine i otvoriti drugu pa ponovo 
poslovati a Vi svoja prava nećete ostvariti...


Naše preduzeće postoji i proizvodi PVC stolariju od 1997. godine. Izrađujemo 
stolariju svih oblika i za sve namene, sa prevozom i montažom kao i demontažom 
postojeće stare drvene stolarije. Poslovna politika firme je duvek  bila 
"KVALITET PO PRISTUPAČNIM CENAMA UZ GARANCIJU". U tom smislu oduvek smo kao 
snabdevače repromaterijala imali samo proverene firme čiji materijali imaju 
višegodišnju garanciju i koji su se već dokazali na tržištu, pa tako danas 
koristimo sledeće:
1. Profili - TERAPLAST, garancija 10 godina, veoma masivni 5-komorni PVC 
profili (krilo širine 85mm), debljine zidova 3-3.2mm, UV stabilisani na bazi 
CaZn, sa 3 zaptivne gume i savremenim rešenjem srednjeg zaptivanja.
2. Okov - ROTO-NT, garancija 10 godina ili preko 5 otvaranja, najnovija NT 
generacija za koju će postojati rezervni delovi i narednih 20-30 godina.
3. Staklo - termopan staklo izrađeno od kvalitetnog FLOT stakla iz Mađarske ili 
Češke sa međurastojanjem od 18mm (4+18+4) zatvoreno poliuretanskim lepkom, u 
varijantama sa niskoemisionim infra-crvenim filmom i međuprostorom napunjenim 
inertnim gasom Argonom (bolja toplotna izolacija).
4. Paneli za vrata - GBW (Engleska), 10 godina garancije; ovi ukrasni paneli su 
izrađeni u jedinstvenoj vakum tehnologiji i jedni su od retkih na tržištu EU 
koji imaju toliku garanciju; imaju ugrađena kaljena stakla.

Mi za svoje proizvode dajemo 5 GODINA PISANE GARANCIJE  (Garantni list) - Sve 
navedeno spojeno sa dugogodišnjim iskustvom naših majstora i kvalitetnim 
mašinama Austrijske firme ACTUAL rezultuje da svojim mušterijama dajemo 
garanciju na kompletan prozor (stabilnost profila, funkcionisanje okova, 
zaptivenost termopana i montažu -neki konkurenti daju samo na profile, često 
samo usmeno, dok oni koji ne nude nikakvu garanciju prodaju proizvode veoma 
sumnjivog kvaliteta). Kao direktni uvoznici materijala uspevamo da budemo među 
najpovoljnijim u pomenutom rangu kvaliteta.
 
Linkovi:
http://www.teraplast.ro/ro/PROFILE-CU-5-CAMERE--cID164.html
http://www.teraplast.ro/ro/PROFILE-CU-6-CAMERE--cID165.html
http://www.roto.de/de/publishingde.nsf/Content/fuerFenster_NT
http://www.gbwuk.com/range.php?range=Shire

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Re: VMware install bi-passes iso file

[Chris Davies]

> Chris Davies  writes:
>> The host hardware's largely irrelevant. What is important is the virtual
>> hardware offered within the VM. I successfully run a 686 based kernel,
>> here.

Harry Putnam  wrote:
> What ISO did you use?

The most recent from which I've installed is debian-505-i386-netinst.iso.

I tend to do an absolute minimal installation from the latest netinst.iso,
add in the repositories for Backports, Testing, Unstable, Experimental,
and Volatile, along with a preferences file to pin Stable/Backports,
and then install from there. (Synaptic seems to ignore the preferences
file. Aptitude and apt-get honour it.)

Chris


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Re: VMware install bi-passes iso file

[Mihira Fernando]

 On 11/03/2010 11:03 AM, Harry Putnam wrote:

Klistvud  writes:


Dne, 01. 11. 2010 16:28:53 je Harry Putnam napisal(a):

I think what you got yourself are images for the Intel Itanium
processors. What you need are either the i386 or the x64 (AMD) images.

Oh boy another 4.4 GB download...

Another poster has said it doesn't matter too much which ISO you get
but is dependent on what HDW the VM offers.

Do you know from experience that the i386 is required in my case?

(Running i7 Q820 multiple 1.73 Ghz and windows 7 64 bit)

If you're going to use ia64 version of debian make sure the VM that you 
create for it is Intel Itanium type. If the VM is a standard 686 or a 
x64, then use the i386 or x64 isos respectively.


The question whether i386 is required in your case or not depends on how 
much memory you are planning to allocate to the VM as well as what 
software that you plan to use on it.
If the memory allocation is 4GB or less, the i386 iso is quite enough. 
If there's any specific software that you plan to install which needs a 
64bit kernel, then install x64 iso.


If your net speed is 512kbps or higher, it'll be easier to use the 
net-install cd rather than the full DVD.

Mihira


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Re: VMware install bi-passes iso file

[Harry Putnam]

Chris Davies  writes:

> Harry Putnam  wrote:
>> I hope someone might be able to help me with installing debian as
>> guest by way of vmware.
>
>> I downloaded the iso DVD (4.4 GB what a hefty download)
>
> If you've got network access you're probably far better off with one of
> the netinst images, and using the network to bring in recent editions
> of the packages you're actually going to use.
>
>
>> Also, I wasn't really sure if I'm getting the right one.  The hardware
>> is (intel) i7 Q820 multiple cores with windows 7 64 bit.
>
> The host hardware's largely irrelevant. What is important is the virtual
> hardware offered within the VM. I successfully run a 686 based kernel,
> here.

What ISO did you use?


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Re: VMware install bi-passes iso file

[Harry Putnam]

Klistvud  writes:

> Dne, 01. 11. 2010 16:28:53 je Harry Putnam napisal(a):
>
> I think what you got yourself are images for the Intel Itanium  
> processors. What you need are either the i386 or the x64 (AMD) images.

Oh boy another 4.4 GB download...

Another poster has said it doesn't matter too much which ISO you get
but is dependent on what HDW the VM offers.

Do you know from experience that the i386 is required in my case?

(Running i7 Q820 multiple 1.73 Ghz and windows 7 64 bit)


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Re: VMware install bi-passes iso file

[Chris Davies]

Harry Putnam  wrote:
> I hope someone might be able to help me with installing debian as
> guest by way of vmware.

> I downloaded the iso DVD (4.4 GB what a hefty download)

If you've got network access you're probably far better off with one of
the netinst images, and using the network to bring in recent editions
of the packages you're actually going to use.


> Also, I wasn't really sure if I'm getting the right one.  The hardware
> is (intel) i7 Q820 multiple cores with windows 7 64 bit.

The host hardware's largely irrelevant. What is important is the virtual
hardware offered within the VM. I successfully run a 686 based kernel,
here.

Chris


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Re: VMware install bi-passes iso file

[Klistvud]

Dne, 01. 11. 2010 16:28:53 je Harry Putnam napisal(a):

I think what you got yourself are images for the Intel Itanium  
processors. What you need are either the i386 or the x64 (AMD) images.


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VMware install bi-passes iso file

[Harry Putnam]

I hope someone might be able to help me with installing debian as
guest by way of vmware.

I have some small experience with both Debian and VMware and have
successfully installed it that way several times.

Its been a good while... maybe over a yr.  And I'm using a newer
version of VMware... 7.1 on windows 7

I downloaded the iso DVD (4.4 GB what a hefty download) Told the
vmware dialog to use the iso file as CDrom. When I start the vm it
zips right thru to a blank screen and no install media ever fires up.

That is, it offers a chance to access the bios and then its just a
black screen... nothing more happens.

I set the bios to boot from Cdrom, and also tried `removable devices'
which is apparently VMware default.  Neither worked.

I'm also installing opensolaris into a vmware, and in that case the
iso was recognized straight off and the install went right through.

The Debian isos are meant to be bootable in this way right?

Also, I wasn't really sure if I'm getting the right one.  The hardware
is (intel) i7 Q820 multiple cores with windows 7 64 bit.

I downloaded the `ia64' iso is that the right one.. or would it
still be i386

Oh, and I went back and got the netinst ISO and tired it too.  Again
ia64 and again the behavior did not change.

Can anyone coach me a bit on this?


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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Emanoil Kotsev]

T o n g wrote:

> 
> Thanks for your feedback, Emanoil. Could you elaborate more? unison
> "looks" promising to me, and I've just learned that there are no ocaml
> runtime dependency for it on i386, amd64. So usability is the most
> important issue to me now. Anyone has positive experience with unison?
> 
> Thanks
> 

I have already forgotten why I decided not to use it, but there wer few
posts with different reasons.

regards


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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Osamu Aoki]

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 07:32:57AM -0700, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 03:26:37AM +, T o n g wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Anyone knows a good bi-directional file-synchronization tool that can 
> > synchronize changes to files and directories in both directions on 
> > different hosts, propagating the changes between them?
> > 
> > This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my 
> > notebook and desktop (at home and at work). Any good recommendation?
> > 
> > syrep is too limited, unison seems to be the exact tool that I'm looking 
> > for, just I want to avoid its dependency (OCaml) if possible.
> 
> I have used unison for quite a while for this purpose and although it
> does what it claims, I find it doesn't really suit my needs. First, it
> is slow (or seems so to me), it does seem to fail randomly on some
> files, and I don't like it's conflict resolution interface. But the
> real reason I'm not liking it now, after about two years of using it
> to sync my desktop and my laptop, is that I don't think it will work
> well for adding additional machines. 
> 
> But all of these reasons to not use unison are mostly personal to
> me. It definitely suited my needs quite well for quite a while. 
> 
> I'm planning to move to keeping all of /home in git and giving that a
> try. You might want to read: http://joey.kitenet.net/svnhome/ and the
> various links from there.

I am not using it but keeping eye on these pages...

This page may be good to check these days.

http://joey.kitenet.net/blog/git/
 
> A



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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Andrew Sackville-West]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 03:26:37AM +, T o n g wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Anyone knows a good bi-directional file-synchronization tool that can 
> synchronize changes to files and directories in both directions on 
> different hosts, propagating the changes between them?
> 
> This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my 
> notebook and desktop (at home and at work). Any good recommendation?
> 
> syrep is too limited, unison seems to be the exact tool that I'm looking 
> for, just I want to avoid its dependency (OCaml) if possible.

I have used unison for quite a while for this purpose and although it
does what it claims, I find it doesn't really suit my needs. First, it
is slow (or seems so to me), it does seem to fail randomly on some
files, and I don't like it's conflict resolution interface. But the
real reason I'm not liking it now, after about two years of using it
to sync my desktop and my laptop, is that I don't think it will work
well for adding additional machines. 

But all of these reasons to not use unison are mostly personal to
me. It definitely suited my needs quite well for quite a while. 

I'm planning to move to keeping all of /home in git and giving that a
try. You might want to read: http://joey.kitenet.net/svnhome/ and the
various links from there.

A


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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Osamu Aoki]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 01:40:03PM +, T o n g wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:03:47 +0200, Emanoil Kotsev wrote:
> 
> >> This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my
> >> notebook and desktop (at home and at work). Any good recommendation?
> >> . . .
> > Hi, so far I have not found any nice and useful software that can do
> > this (I mean with gui and so on)
> > 
> > The mentioned unison program failed the tests. May be rsync but not sure
> > it didn't do the things I wanted and I wanted to do it the way you can
> > do it in i.e. windows with some commercial software.
> > 
> > I was also thinking unison is just the right thing, but then I noticed
> > it's not really syncing like it should and leading to inconsistency.
> 
> Thanks for your feedback, Emanoil. Could you elaborate more? unison 
> "looks" promising to me, and I've just learned that there are no ocaml 
> runtime dependency for it on i386, amd64. So usability is the most 
> important issue to me now. Anyone has positive experience with unison?

You may wish to read sections around:
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch10.en.html#_copy_and_synchronization_tools
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch10.en.html#list-of-vcs

If you use rsync or unison, I think you must have keep time correct.

Unison overwrite files.  So please make sure you have proper data backup.

Osamu


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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Sylvain Le Gall]

Hello,

On 18-09-2009, T o n g  wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:03:47 +0200, Emanoil Kotsev wrote:
>
>>> This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my
>>> notebook and desktop (at home and at work). Any good recommendation?
>>> . . .
>> Hi, so far I have not found any nice and useful software that can do
>> this (I mean with gui and so on)
>> 
>> The mentioned unison program failed the tests. May be rsync but not sure
>> it didn't do the things I wanted and I wanted to do it the way you can
>> do it in i.e. windows with some commercial software.
>> 
>> I was also thinking unison is just the right thing, but then I noticed
>> it's not really syncing like it should and leading to inconsistency.
>
> Thanks for your feedback, Emanoil. Could you elaborate more? unison 
> "looks" promising to me, and I've just learned that there are no ocaml 
> runtime dependency for it on i386, amd64. So usability is the most 
> important issue to me now. Anyone has positive experience with unison?
>

I am using it daily for synchronization of my /home between:
- home computer and server 
- home computer and work computer
- home computer and notebook

I also from time to time synchronize part of my /home tree to Windows
(i.e. the part containing my source code).

Works flawlessly (and automatically) since years. Never have problems,
except very long transfer when there was very big files... (but this is
due to standard bandwidth problems).

If there is any inconsistency I think it related to software that use
file synchronized. I.e. if you don't close iceweasel and synchronize its
files, you can get inconsistency because iceweasel can still handle data
not on your hard drive during synchronization. 

The other most obvious problem that can exists is also for the first
synchronization. In this case unison don't know yet what host to trust
for synchronization. E.g. if both computers hold a copy of file A, unison
don't know in which way it should be synchronized. It is the same if
there is a file A on one host and not on the other. Once this first
synchronization is done, unison remember the state of the last
synchronization point and use it: if you remove file A on one host it
will understand that it should remove it on the other host. 

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall


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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[T o n g]

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:03:47 +0200, Emanoil Kotsev wrote:

>> This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my
>> notebook and desktop (at home and at work). Any good recommendation?
>> . . .
> Hi, so far I have not found any nice and useful software that can do
> this (I mean with gui and so on)
> 
> The mentioned unison program failed the tests. May be rsync but not sure
> it didn't do the things I wanted and I wanted to do it the way you can
> do it in i.e. windows with some commercial software.
> 
> I was also thinking unison is just the right thing, but then I noticed
> it's not really syncing like it should and leading to inconsistency.

Thanks for your feedback, Emanoil. Could you elaborate more? unison 
"looks" promising to me, and I've just learned that there are no ocaml 
runtime dependency for it on i386, amd64. So usability is the most 
important issue to me now. Anyone has positive experience with unison?

Thanks

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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Sylvain Le Gall]

On 18-09-2009, T o n g  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Anyone knows a good bi-directional file-synchronization tool that can 
> synchronize changes to files and directories in both directions on 
> different hosts, propagating the changes between them?
>
> This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my 
> notebook and desktop (at home and at work). Any good recommendation?
>
> syrep is too limited, unison seems to be the exact tool that I'm looking 
> for, just I want to avoid its dependency (OCaml) if possible.
>

If unison is the exact tools you need, just stop searching. You don't
need to learn OCaml to use Unison... (maybe on some arch you will need
to download runtime dependency for it, but that's all -- and this is not
the case for i386, amd64).

Regards,
Sylvain Le Gall


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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Rakotomandimby Mihamina]

09/18/2009 06:26 AM, T o n g:

syrep is too limited, unison seems to be the exact tool that I'm looking
for, just I want to avoid its dependency (OCaml) if possible.


- You dont need ocaml to use unison
- OCaml is a very good programming language

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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Jochen Schulz]

T o n g:
> 
> Anyone knows a good bi-directional file-synchronization tool that can 
> synchronize changes to files and directories in both directions on 
> different hosts, propagating the changes between them?
> 
> This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my 
> notebook and desktop (at home and at work). Any good recommendation?

I really recommend using some kind of Version Control System. During my
studies, I had everything stored in Subversion. Nowadays I would
probably pick some distributed VCS like Mercurial or Git.

"Classical" tools for synchronisation only work well for two systems,
(D)VCSs work for an arbitrary number of systems. Additionally, you get
file history for free. And the distributed VCSs are very efficient when
synchronising data.

J.
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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Emanoil Kotsev]

T o n g wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Anyone knows a good bi-directional file-synchronization tool that can
> synchronize changes to files and directories in both directions on
> different hosts, propagating the changes between them?
> 
> This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my
> notebook and desktop (at home and at work). Any good recommendation?
> 
> syrep is too limited, unison seems to be the exact tool that I'm looking
> for, just I want to avoid its dependency (OCaml) if possible.
> 
> Thanks
> 

Hi, so far I have not found any nice and useful software that can do this (I
mean with gui and so on)

The mentioned unison program failed the tests. May be rsync but not sure it
didn't do the things I wanted and I wanted to do it the way you can do it
in i.e. windows with some commercial software.

I was also thinking unison is just the right thing, but then I noticed it's
not really syncing like it should and leading to inconsistency.

regards


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RE: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[David Christensen]

T o n g wrote:
> This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my
> notebook and desktop (at home and at work).

I run a CVS server on Debian and use it to sync files between GNU/ Linux, BSD, 
and Windows machines.  CVS can do DOS/ Unix line-ending conversion of text 
files for you.


rsync might work, if you pick the right options.  But, watch out for clock 
synchronization and FAT filesystem time resolution (2 seconds).


HTH,

David


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Re: bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[Cameron Hutchison]

T o n g  writes:

>Anyone knows a good bi-directional file-synchronization tool that can 
>synchronize changes to files and directories in both directions on 
>different hosts, propagating the changes between them?

>syrep is too limited, unison seems to be the exact tool that I'm looking 
>for, just I want to avoid its dependency (OCaml) if possible.

Unison does not have a dependency on OCaml - just libc6. It may be
written in OCaml, but that's only a build dependency. Do you plan on
modifying a synchronisation tool?


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bi-directional file-synchronization tool

[T o n g]

Hi,

Anyone knows a good bi-directional file-synchronization tool that can 
synchronize changes to files and directories in both directions on 
different hosts, propagating the changes between them?

This is mainly use to synchronize files and directories between my 
notebook and desktop (at home and at work). Any good recommendation?

syrep is too limited, unison seems to be the exact tool that I'm looking 
for, just I want to avoid its dependency (OCaml) if possible.

Thanks

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Re: Oracle bI 2nd request

[Stan Brown]

On Tue Nov 21 04:08:13 2000 Jaume Teixi wrote...
>
>Stan,
>
>Oracle works ok on Debian potato.
>Be sure to not to use libc6 greater than 2.1.3 because Oracle as from 8.1.6 
>doens't
>works with glibc2.2 (only 2.1)
>If you wait me for 2 days I will post install instructions for Debian on a 
>site...
>.and for 128 Mb no problems at all!.and yes it comes with jre 1.1.8
>
>If someone can compile php4 with oci8 support please notify me
>

Works great for me. I am leaving tonight for Thanksgiving, so hopefully 
uou
will have it posted by the time i get back (probably Sunday). 

Could you do me one smal favor? Given the volume of this group, your 
post
announcu=ing this will be a bit hard to fins in, say a weeks wirth, of
messages. Could you email me directly with the address?

Thanks you very much.

-- 
Stan Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]843-745-3154
Charleston SC.
-- 
Windows 98: n.
useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and
a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system
originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit 
company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.
-
(c) 2000 Stan Brown.  Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is prohibited.

Re: Oracle bI 2nd request

[Jaume Teixi]

Stan,

Oracle works ok on Debian potato.
Be sure to not to use libc6 greater than 2.1.3 because Oracle as from 8.1.6 
doens't
works with glibc2.2 (only 2.1)
If you wait me for 2 days I will post install instructions for Debian on a 
site...
.and for 128 Mb no problems at all!.and yes it comes with jre 1.1.8

If someone can compile php4 with oci8 support please notify me

thanks,
jaume


Stan Kaufman wrote:

> Stan Brown wrote:
> >
> > I posted yesterday, and unfortunately, have recieved no replies.
> >
> > I have a fresh potato install, and wish to install Oracle 8I on it.
> > Most of the information I have is for RedGAt.
> >
> > has anyone made this work on Debian? If so, whatr do I need to use
> > this, other than the base install with working X & Gnome?
> >
> > For instance I am totaly unfamiliar with Java, yet I know the Oracle
> > installer is Java based. What packages do I need to add to allow 
> > this
> > to work?
>
> The current 8i (8.1.6) distribution has the necessary Java JDK bundled
> with it. If you have an earlier version, you should get the current one.
> You should join the Oracle Technology Network (it's free); there are
> lots of resources there including discussion groups that will answer all
> your questions. See http://technet.oracle.com/
>
> > Also Oracle seems to recomend a minimum of 128M RAM. I really am not
> > building a production machine, and I have Oracle runing on HP 
> > PA=RUSC
> > boxes with this amount of RAM. Surely I can't really need that much 
> > for
> > just a small test instance?
>
> The installer checks your memory and aborts if there's not enough. And
> 128MB is what you need free *after* your system loads, not just the
> total physical RAM on your machine. So in fact, you need more than that.
>
> If you're just experimenting, you should consider Postgres. It is free
> (as opposed to Oracle which will cost you *big bucks* to deploy a
> system) and is a great RDBMS. And it has been debianized so installing
> it is effortless.
>
> HTH.
>
> Stan
>
> > Anyone who has this working, I would love to hear from you.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > --
> > Stan Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 843-745-3154
> > Charleston SC.
> > --
> > Windows 98: n.
> > useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and
> > a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system
> > originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit
> > company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.
> > -
> > (c) 2000 Stan Brown.  Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is 
> > prohibited.
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe?  mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null
>
> --
> Unsubscribe?  mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null

--
Jaume Teixi
Administrador de Sistemes
6TEMS - Ducform, SA
http://www.6tems.com

RE: Oracle bI 2nd request

[Jason Holland]

>
>   Cool. thnaks.
>
>   I would have sworn somewhere that I had seen that the
> Oracle installer required
>   a particular JRE, Blcakdown I think.

I think previous versions required this.  Earlier than 8.1.6.  But Oracle
was nice enough, and smart enough, to include this in 8i for us. :)

>
>   In any case, I will plow on ahead, and see how it goes.
>
>   I pretty much _have_ to run X to isntall, since the Oracle
> installer is an X
>   app. BTW we are both talking about *I, right? Not not just
> Oracle 8 which does
>   not use the Java based installer.

Yes, the oracle installer does kinda require a gui.  Though, you could just
export your display to a desktop if you didn't want the extra overhead of X
while installing.  Yes, I am talking about Oracle 8i, 8.1.6 for linux.

Jason

Re: Oracle bI 2nd request

[Stan Brown]

On Mon Nov 20 12:47:33 2000 Stan Kaufman wrote...
>
>Stan Brown wrote:
>> 
>> I posted yesterday, and unfortunately, have recieved no replies.
>> 
>> I have a fresh potato install, and wish to install Oracle 8I on it.
>> Most of the information I have is for RedGAt.
>> 
>> has anyone made this work on Debian? If so, whatr do I need to use
>> this, other than the base install with working X & Gnome?
>> 
>> For instance I am totaly unfamiliar with Java, yet I know the Oracle
>> installer is Java based. What packages do I need to add to allow this
>> to work?
>
>The current 8i (8.1.6) distribution has the necessary Java JDK bundled
>with it. If you have an earlier version, you should get the current one.
>You should join the Oracle Technology Network (it's free); there are
>lots of resources there including discussion groups that will answer all
>your questions. See http://technet.oracle.com/

Thansk, I will look inot that. And yes it's 8.1.6
>
>> Also Oracle seems to recomend a minimum of 128M RAM. I really am not
>> building a production machine, and I have Oracle runing on HP PA=RUSC
>> boxes with this amount of RAM. Surely I can't really need that much 
>> for
>> just a small test instance?
>
>The installer checks your memory and aborts if there's not enough. And
>128MB is what you need free *after* your system loads, not just the
>total physical RAM on your machine. So in fact, you need more than that.
>
>If you're just experimenting, you should consider Postgres. It is free
>(as opposed to Oracle which will cost you *big bucks* to deploy a
>system) and is a great RDBMS. And it has been debianized so installing
>it is effortless.

Tahnks, I am already a Postgresql user. It is indeed wonderful. But 
what I am
trying to do here is set up a machine to run a tiny Oracle instance, 
and most
importantly to allow me to run SQLPlus on using SQLNet to access an 
existing
failry major Oracle instance I support. 

Is it possible to install just the client parts? If so can I do that in 
less
than 128MB? The machien I am planing on using does not even have enough 
slots
to plug in that much memory! P133 HP Vectra VL$ BTW.
-- 
Stan Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]843-745-3154
Charleston SC.
-- 
Windows 98: n.
useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and
a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system
originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit 
company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.
-
(c) 2000 Stan Brown.  Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is prohibited.

Re: Oracle bI 2nd request

[Stan Brown]

On Mon Nov 20 13:49:52 2000 Jason Holland wrote...
>
>Hi Stan,
>  you don't need anything extra to install Oracle 8i in Debian.  java comes
>with oracle, you need no extra java packages.  If your not building a
>production machine, 64MB would probably work, but I would not run X at the
>same time, otherwise, go with 128MB.  Hope this helps
>

Cool. thnaks.

I would have sworn somewhere that I had seen that the Oracle installer 
required
a particular JRE, Blcakdown I think.

In any case, I will plow on ahead, and see how it goes.

I pretty much _have_ to run X to isntall, since the Oracle installer is 
an X
app. BTW we are both talking about *I, right? Not not just Oracle 8 
which does
not use the Java based installer.

-- 
Stan Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]843-745-3154
Charleston SC.
-- 
Windows 98: n.
useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and
a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system
originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit 
company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.
-
(c) 2000 Stan Brown.  Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is prohibited.

Re: Oracle bI 2nd request

[Stan Kaufman]

Stan Brown wrote:
> 
> I posted yesterday, and unfortunately, have recieved no replies.
> 
> I have a fresh potato install, and wish to install Oracle 8I on it.
> Most of the information I have is for RedGAt.
> 
> has anyone made this work on Debian? If so, whatr do I need to use
> this, other than the base install with working X & Gnome?
> 
> For instance I am totaly unfamiliar with Java, yet I know the Oracle
> installer is Java based. What packages do I need to add to allow this
> to work?

The current 8i (8.1.6) distribution has the necessary Java JDK bundled
with it. If you have an earlier version, you should get the current one.
You should join the Oracle Technology Network (it's free); there are
lots of resources there including discussion groups that will answer all
your questions. See http://technet.oracle.com/

> Also Oracle seems to recomend a minimum of 128M RAM. I really am not
> building a production machine, and I have Oracle runing on HP PA=RUSC
> boxes with this amount of RAM. Surely I can't really need that much 
> for
> just a small test instance?

The installer checks your memory and aborts if there's not enough. And
128MB is what you need free *after* your system loads, not just the
total physical RAM on your machine. So in fact, you need more than that.

If you're just experimenting, you should consider Postgres. It is free
(as opposed to Oracle which will cost you *big bucks* to deploy a
system) and is a great RDBMS. And it has been debianized so installing
it is effortless.

HTH.

Stan


> Anyone who has this working, I would love to hear from you.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> --
> Stan Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 843-745-3154
> Charleston SC.
> --
> Windows 98: n.
> useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and
> a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system
> originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit
> company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.
> -
> (c) 2000 Stan Brown.  Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is prohibited.
> 
> --
> Unsubscribe?  mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null

RE: Oracle bI 2nd request

[Jason Holland]

Hi Stan,
  you don't need anything extra to install Oracle 8i in Debian.  java comes
with oracle, you need no extra java packages.  If your not building a
production machine, 64MB would probably work, but I would not run X at the
same time, otherwise, go with 128MB.  Hope this helps

Jason

>   I posted yesterday, and unfortunately, have recieved no replies.
>
>   I have a fresh potato install, and wish to install Oracle 8I on it.
>   Most of the information I have is for RedGAt.
>
>   has anyone made this work on Debian? If so, whatr do I need to use
>   this, other than the base install with working X & Gnome?
>
>   For instance I am totaly unfamiliar with Java, yet I know the Oracle
>   installer is Java based. What packages do I need to add to
> allow this
>   to work?
>
>   Also Oracle seems to recomend a minimum of 128M RAM. I really am not
>   building a production machine, and I have Oracle runing on
> HP PA=RUSC
>   boxes with this amount of RAM. Surely I can't really need
> that much for
>   just a small test instance?
>
>   Anyone who has this working, I would love to hear from you.
>
>   Thanks.
>
> --
> Stan Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 843-745-3154
> Charleston SC.
> --
> Windows 98: n.
>   useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and
>   a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system
>   originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit
>   company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.
> -
> (c) 2000 Stan Brown.  Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is
> prohibited.
>
>
> --
> Unsubscribe?  mail -s unsubscribe
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null
>
>

Oracle bI 2nd request

[Stan Brown]

I posted yesterday, and unfortunately, have recieved no replies.

I have a fresh potato install, and wish to install Oracle 8I on it.
Most of the information I have is for RedGAt. 

has anyone made this work on Debian? If so, whatr do I need to use
this, other than the base install with working X & Gnome?

For instance I am totaly unfamiliar with Java, yet I know the Oracle
installer is Java based. What packages do I need to add to allow this
to work?

Also Oracle seems to recomend a minimum of 128M RAM. I really am not
building a production machine, and I have Oracle runing on HP PA=RUSC
boxes with this amount of RAM. Surely I can't really need that much for
just a small test instance?

Anyone who has this working, I would love to hear from you.

Thanks.

-- 
Stan Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]843-745-3154
Charleston SC.
-- 
Windows 98: n.
useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and
a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system
originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit 
company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.
-
(c) 2000 Stan Brown.  Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is prohibited.

Re: Install linux with Pentium Pro 200 Bi-Proc.

[Christen Welch]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2000 at 06:38:19PM +0200,
Centre St.Boniface <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> i.e. Do we need driver of the motherboard, and could send it to us? 
> Is it other particularities, we must care of.
>  

You should install the kernel source. If you are using Debian, you should
select the latest kernel source package and install it. For this, you can
use 'deselect', 'capt' or type:

apt-get install kernel-source-2.2.17

as root. If you aren't running Debian, you can download the latest kernel 
source in a .tar.gz format from http://www.kernel.org. Extract it to 
/usr/src/.

One you have done this, go into /usr/src/linux-2.2.17 (or whatever 
directory it made) and type 

make menuconfig

Select all of the relevant options, including support for SMP systems. 

I hope this helps.  
-- 
Chaotic42 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.pobox.com/~chaotic42/
http://www.bigplasticfork.org/

We are what we repeatedly do - Aristotle


pgpqT2bgrpS3r.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Install linux with Pentium Pro 200 Bi-Proc.

[Centre St.Boniface]

Dear Sir,
 
Trying to install an Intel platform with 
bi-processors Pentium Pro 200 SY032, we have some troubles.
 
Could you please help us for configuration 

 
i.e. Do we need driver of the motherboard, and 
could send it to us? Is it other particularities, we must care of.
 
Thank you in advance for you 
answer
 
Your sincerely
 
Luc Jaquet 
 

Re: bootdisk for bi celeron bp6 ata 66 controller.

[aphro]

the ata66 controller is only supported by a 3rd party kernel patch.  some
people say it works, others say it doesn't ..

i have a BP6 myself, the thing is unstable as hell in SMP (fine in UP),
but i use SCSI only no IDE.

nate

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]--
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Powered By:http://comedy.aphroland.org/
Debian 2.1 Linux 2.0.36 SMPhttp://yahoo.aphroland.org/
-[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]--

On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, Sven LUTHER wrote:

> Hello, ...
> 
> Does anyone have a debian rescue disk with a kernel supporting the ata66
> controller of the bp6 bi celeron motherboard ?
> 
> or know of another way to install debian on an empty ata66 harddisk attached
> on said controller ?
> 
> Appart from putting the harddisk on the ATA33 controller naturally.
> 
> Friendly,
> 
> Sven LUTHER
> 
> 
> -- 
> Unsubscribe?  mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null
> 

bootdisk for bi celeron bp6 ata 66 controller.

[Sven LUTHER]

Hello, ...

Does anyone have a debian rescue disk with a kernel supporting the ata66
controller of the bp6 bi celeron motherboard ?

or know of another way to install debian on an empty ata66 harddisk attached
on said controller ?

Appart from putting the harddisk on the ATA33 controller naturally.

Friendly,

Sven LUTHER

Re: bi -- should have been: vi vs emacs

[David B. Teague]

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Vadim Vygonets wrote:
[ a bunch of correct things about emacs and vi]

An anecdote regarding vi and emacs use:

We had a whole department who were using vi under System V.2 on 
3b2/400s back in the middle 80s. I installed microEmacs (whatever was
current at the time). By the middle of the next month there was not
a single faculty member and few students who were still using vi.

MicroEmacs commands are similar in flavor to (big) emacs. Once we had a
decent Linux system running, everyone used (big) emacs. The only
reversions to vi were folk who had already leared vi somewhere else and
were committed to it.

I know both vi and emacs fairly well, and *much* prefer emacs' damned
peculiarities to vi's equally damned pecularities.

So much for vi being in any sense a casual user's editor.

This is a religeous war, and I apologise for continuing the discussion.

--David
emacs, the one true editor!
vi, because it takes too much time to type emacs!

-
   LINUX: the FREE 32 bit OS for [345]86 PC's available NOW!
David B Teague | User interface copyrights & software patents make 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | programing a dangerous business. Ask me or [EMAIL PROTECTED]

spy counter-intelligence wild porno sex gold bullion Soviet Bosnia clipper


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Re: bi (Please stop it)

[Vadim Vygonets]

> The issue relevant to this group is: what editor should someone
> expect to find on a system's boot/rescue disk?  That someone
> presumably being a person with enough unix experience to recover
> from the usual problems that can make your machine fail to boot.
> The lastthing you need at that point (especially if this is a
> server for many people) is a surprise from the editor or to have
> to learn a new one.

What I'm saying is: Ok, emacs is great, we all (well, almost all) use
it, I use it too.  But if you have your system on the knees, and you
have enough Unix experience to know how to get it up, you surely know
vi, and most chances are that you also know ed.  Emacs surely doesn't
belong to base, and at least one of ed or (I'm not saying xor!) vi
surely does.  ae is good for newbies, but have you ever seen a newbie
recovering your system?  BTW, I work as a sysadmin, and I learned a
little of ed just because I knew that it's better to learn it before
you need it.

Vadik, who uses ed when he can't get his beloved vi.

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.


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Re: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On 17 Apr 1997, Alair Pereira do Lago wrote:

> Neither do I.  Even in X, I almost do not use the mouse.  Indeed, inside a
> console or inside an xterm (emacs -nw) I could only use the mouse if I have 
> done
> some non-standard configuration.  Just don't use the mouse if you prefer. You
> can do everything without the mouse.   

I wasn't talking about the mouse (I use it mostly to travel; between X
windows), I was talking about all the Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift
and arrows...

> Get fvwm-mode (from fvwm-mode.el somewhere) for instance. IMHO, it
> is much more simple to edit fvwm configuration files using this
> mode.  I think this mode was also helpfull when I was configuring
> apache since the configuration files syntax are not so different.
> BTW, use lazy-lock if you are concerned about font-lock CPU
> consuming.

I'm not using fvwm.  I use font-lock for C.  Yes, it does increase
readability.  Both vi and emacs are good for programming, because
programmers are the ones who write editors :)  Well, I don't think ed
is good for programming, but sometimes you just have to use it.

> I usually use Gnus inside emacs for reading and writing news and
> mail.

I hate using emacs as something but an editor.

> I can also score messages according to the author or according to strings
> present in the subject field.

I think other mailers / newsreaders can do it too...

> Emacs is good to be loadedall the time.  Perhaps in my swap, if I am
> not using it.

Well, that's right.  Emacs seems to be designed to run from .xsession
and to stay somewhere on the background until you logout.  The only
thing it can't do is to be a window manager ;)

> > I don't like incremental search because it's slow.

> I sincerely disagree here.  I sincerely do not see how typing
> 'monitor' and ENTER in a search field can be faster than typing just
> 'mon' when I am looking for the section monitor in my
> /etc/X11/XF86Config.

Well, it's slow because it takes resources.  When you type m, it finds
something like "XConsortium", when you type o, it finds "modify", and
it searches all the time...  Give your processor a brk!

> I have just tested in an 8M 486 DX2/66 and incremental search was
> faster thanI could type.  And I tried to be fast.

Well, I didn't say it's _so_ slow, I just said it's heavy.

Use ed!  As long as you don't know teco.
Vadik.

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.


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Re: bi

[Alair Pereira do Lago]

 [ I do not like this kind of discussion but I thing some things could be
   helpful to some people.  Indeed, I have been using emacs for a long long
   time and I started to read this trhead because I would like to learn some
   things about vi. Perhaps I will stop writing in this thread. ]

Vadim Vygonets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Emacs is powerful, but in vi the work is faster not only because the
> editor is faster, but also because you don't have to move your fingers
> off the letters.

Neither do I.  Even in X, I almost do not use the mouse.  Indeed, inside a
console or inside an xterm (emacs -nw) I could only use the mouse if I have done
some non-standard configuration.  Just don't use the mouse if you prefer. You
can do everything without the mouse.   

> > I like [x]jed too.  Indeed I use jedfor small editions.  Besides, my .emacs,
> > site-start.el and default.el load many many things and takes some seconds to
> > start.
> 
> Mine too.  cc-mode, font-lock, etc...

I use auto-load for almost everything.  Font-lock is loaded the first time I
use a mode with Font-lock capabilities.  I think font-lock (and I use colors
here) increases the readability.  Get fvwm-mode (from fvwm-mode.el somewhere)
for instance. IMHO, it is much more simple to edit fvwm configuration files
using this mode.  I think this mode was also helpfull when I was configuring
apache since the configuration files syntax are not so different.  BTW, use
lazy-lock if you are concerned about font-lock CPU consuming.

> So?  I use pine, and emacs as the alternative editor.

I use pine sometimes too. Sometimes I just use mail.  I usually use Gnus
inside emacs for reading and writing news and mail.  I like to be able to
score messages according to the subject, for instance.  Those people who would
not like to read this thread, for instance, could just underscore this thread.
I can also score messages according to the author or according to strings
present in the subject field.

> Well, I use emacs for mail and programming, and vi for configs and
> patches.  Sometimes I use ed.

If I have not started an emacs and I wanna do small edition I usually prefer
an other editor too.  Sometimes jed.  Sometimes others.  Emacs is good to be
loaded all the time.  Perhaps in my swap, if I am not using it.

> Well, both vi and emacs have its own
> purposes.

I agree with you.

> I don't like incremental search because it's slow.

I sincerely disagree here.  I sincerely do not see how typing 'monitor' and
ENTER in a search field can be faster than typing just 'mon' when I am
looking for the section monitor in my /etc/X11/XF86Config.  

> On my
> good ol' 486

I have just tested in an 8M 486 DX2/66 and incremental search was faster than I
could type.  And I tried to be fast.

>I used emacs only when I needed something really big.

I used to do my LaTeX edition in my old 8M 386 DX/40 box using GNU Emacs with
font-lock-mode.  My file was 200Kbytes large.  Sometimes, I was doing that
with latex running in background...

> Now I have a Pentium 133, but I'm too used to vi to forget it :)


> 
> Vadik.
> 
> --
> Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
> If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
> abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
> the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.
> 

-- 
Alair Pereira do Lago  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Computer Science Department -- Universidade de S~ao Paulo -- Brazil


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Re: bi (Please stop it)

[Craig Sanders]

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Pete Templin wrote:

> I agree with Joey's original message: let's let the editor debate rest a
> bit, folks, or give it focus and a new thread name.

i disagree.  I see two valuable results from the thread:

1.  people get to show off neat tricks that they've learnt/figured out 
with their favourite editor, whether it be vi or emacs or something
else. This is good because by writing it in a form for other
people to understand they achieve a greater understanding for
themself...teaching others is a great way to learn.

2.  people get to see useful features, tips & tricks, etc for the editors -
possibly helping them to learn how to use their editor more effectively,
or even helping them to make a choice as to which editor to focus their
learning on.

newbies hear all sorts of claims that 'vi is powerful' and 'emacs
is powerful' - but unless they have the opportunity to see some
examples then they should take these claims with a huge grain of
salt.

isn't the self-education process a big part of what this mailing list
is about?

Both emacs & vi are good editors - i personally prefer vi but
acknowledge that emacs has some neat features too (every so often i try
to learn emacs properly but give up because it doesn't give me anything
that vi doesn't give me in less memory and less keystrokes - i have
no use for elisp or gnus in a text editor)

If the thread devolves into '{vi/emacs} is an abomination' then it
becomes useless...but while it remains friendly, helpful rivalry it is
very useful. 

craig


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Re: bi (Please stop it)

[Pete Templin]

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Leslie Mikesell wrote:

> The issue relevant to this group is: what editor should someone
> expect to find on a system's boot/rescue disk?  That someone
> presumably being a person with enough unix experience to recover
> from the usual problems that can make your machine fail to boot.
> The last thing you need at that point (especially if this is a
> server for many people) is a surprise from the editor or to have
> to learn a new one.

So why is the issue that _seems_ to be relevant to the group (or at least
the posters within) the minimization of the number of keystrokes or the
level of injury supposedly inflicted by its interface? 

Besides, wouldn't a discussion of an appropiate boot/rescue disk editor be
better suited for the developer's list?  It would seem to me that they are
the ones responsible for developing the actual boot disks.

I agree with Joey's original message: let's let the editor debate rest a
bit, folks, or give it focus and a new thread name.

Thanks,

Pete

--
Peter J. Templin, Jr.   Client Services Analyst
Computer & Communication Services   tel: (717) 524-1590
Bucknell University [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: bi (Please stop it)

[Leslie Mikesell]

> what does it matter if one editor is faster than another?  Or if one
> is more powerful than any other?  Nothing!  The particular user has 
> to be familiar with at least one editor in that way that _he_ can
> use it for his purposes.

The issue relevant to this group is: what editor should someone
expect to find on a system's boot/rescue disk?  That someone
presumably being a person with enough unix experience to recover
from the usual problems that can make your machine fail to boot.
The last thing you need at that point (especially if this is a
server for many people) is a surprise from the editor or to have
to learn a new one.

Les Mikesell
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: bi (Please stop it)

[Martin Schulze]

Folks,

what does it matter if one editor is faster than another?  Or if one
is more powerful than any other?  Nothing!  The particular user has 
to be familiar with at least one editor in that way that _he_ can
use it for his purposes.

It doesn't make any sense discussing wether one particular editor
is better than another.  This is a problem which is not decidable -
speaking as a computer scientist.

So please stop this now.

If there is still one person who hasn't found his favourite editor, please
consult either ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/bo/binary/editors/ or
ftp://sunsiste.unc.edu/pub/Linux/apps/editors/

Regards,

Joey


-- 
  / Martin Schulze * Debian GNU/Linux Developer * [EMAIL PROTECTED] /
 / http://www.debian.org/  http://home.pages.de/~joey/


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Re: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On 16 Apr 1997, Alair Pereira do Lago wrote:

> Here, I was not saying anything about fastness or slowness of any editor, but
> about a powerful use of emacs.

Emacs is powerful, but in vi the work is faster not only because the
editor is faster, but also because you don't have to move your fingers
off the letters.

> I like [x]jed too.  Indeed I use jedfor small editions.  Besides, my .emacs,
> site-start.el and default.el load many many things and takes some seconds to
> start. 

Mine too.  cc-mode, font-lock, etc...

> > You didn't type it in emacs, did you?  Emacs auto-fill mode breaks at
> > 70th character, and you typed about 79 per line.
> 
> I will answer you in a simple way:
> Take an Emacs and start the Gnus news reader. Then select my message in the
> summary and hit 't'.  In this way you will see all the headers of my
> message. There you will see the X-Mailer field which was:
> 
>   X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34
> 
> In your reply to my message I see the message ID was
> 
>   Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> so I guess you have used pine to send your message.

So?  I use pine, and emacs as the alternative editor.

> See Vadik, I do not want to say that vi is bad.  I was just trying
> to expose a feature of emacs that I like a lot: incremental search
> for strings or regular expressions. I do not use vi for some
> editions just because I do know how to use it well.

Well, I use emacs for mail and programming, and vi for configs and
patches.  Sometimes I use ed.  Well, both vi and emacs have its own
purposes.  I don't like incremental search because it's slow.  On my
good ol' 486 I used emacs only when I needed something really big.
Now I have a Pentium 133, but I'm too used to vi to forget it :)

Vadik.

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.


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Re: bi

[Alair Pereira do Lago]

Vadim Vygonets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 15 Apr 1997, Alair Pereira do Lago wrote:
> 
> > I do not know vi well but I do not see how it could be simpler than 
> > ctr-alt-s
> > in emacs.  There, while you are filling the regular expression you can see
> > the text that the incomplete regular expression is matching. If you put one
> > letter more and the matching you had does not match anymore, it goes to next
> > ocurrence of that regular expression you have in the text.

Here, I was not saying anything about fastness or slowness of any editor, but
about a powerful use of emacs.

> Two reasons emacs is slow:
> 1. Lisp (jed is faster than emacs because it uses S-Lang (however they
>spell it)).

I like [x]jed too.  Indeed I use jed for small editions.  Besides, my .emacs,
site-start.el and default.el load many many things and takes some seconds to
start. 


> 2. It does too much things on your every keystroke (like that one
>above).

Probably.  I recall that emacs in a console or xterm is faster than in X.  If
you are using features like font-lock-mode (which put colors on your text
according to the syntax), then things can be slower.  Anycase, the time
between two of my keystrokes are much more large.

> You didn't type it in emacs, did you?  Emacs auto-fill mode breaks at
> 70th character, and you typed about 79 per line.

I will answer you in a simple way:
Take an Emacs and start the Gnus news reader. Then select my message in the
summary and hit 't'.  In this way you will see all the headers of my
message. There you will see the X-Mailer field which was:

X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34

In your reply to my message I see the message ID was

Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

so I guess you have used pine to send your message.


See Vadik, I do not want to say that vi is bad.  I was just trying to expose a
feature of emacs that I like a lot: incremental search for strings or regular
expressions.  I do not use vi for some editions just because I do know how to
use it well.

-- 
Alair Pereira do Lago  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Computer Science Department -- Universidade de S~ao Paulo -- Brazil


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Re: bi

[Boris D. Beletsky]

 On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Vadim wrote:

 Vadim> > My beloved Vadik, :) there is nothing objectively "fast"
 Vadim> > about slang and nothing "slow" about lisp. Emacs seems to
 Vadim> > be alot more complicated then jed that's all. (maybe jed is
 Vadim> > faster just because it meant to be "fast emacs clone"?)
 Vadim>
 Vadim> Dearest Borik, you should know that various Lisps (scheme,
 Vadim> e-lisp, etc.) are interpreted really really slow, and S-Lang
 Vadim> is interpreted faster. 

E-lisp is a very light lisp...

 Vadim> As far as I know, jed can do basically
 Vadim> the same things emacs can. 

Jed uses alot less system calls, too bad ;-).

 Vadim> It's still slower than vi, because
 Vadim> vi doesn't make 8 system calls per keystroke (as emacs does).

Jed is about 3 system calls per keystroke, but it has nothing to do
with lisp.

 Vadim> And about jed being faster because it's supposed to be a
 Vadim> faster emacs clone -- let's call emacs a faster ed clone and
 Vadim> see how it works ;)

Let's call ed "fast but reduced emacs clone".

 Vadim> > Always truly yours, borik
 Vadim>
 Vadim> I love you too, bro Vadik.

Can't live without you!! :..(..

borik
 
---
Boris D. Beletsky  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System Group[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Institute of Computer Science   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hebrew University Jerusalemhome: +972 2 6411880
 


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Re: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Boris D. Beletsky wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
>  On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Vadim wrote:
> 
> Vadim> Two reasons emacs is slow: 1. Lisp (jed is faster than emacs
> Vadim> because it uses S-Lang (however they spell it)). 
> 
> My beloved Vadik, :) there is nothing objectively "fast" about slang
> and nothing "slow" about lisp. Emacs seems to be alot more
> complicated then jed that's all. (maybe jed is faster just because
> it meant to be "fast emacs clone"?)

Dearest Borik, you should know that various Lisps (scheme, e-lisp,
etc.) are interpreted really really slow, and S-Lang is interpreted
faster.  As far as I know, jed can do basically the same things emacs
can.  It's still slower than vi, because vi doesn't make 8 system
calls per keystroke (as emacs does).  And about jed being faster
because it's supposed to be a faster emacs clone -- let's call emacs a
faster ed clone and see how it works ;)

> Always truly yours,
> borik

I love you too, bro.
Vadik.

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.


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Re: bi

[Boris D. Beletsky]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

 On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Vadim wrote:

 Vadim> Two reasons emacs is slow: 1. Lisp (jed is faster than emacs
 Vadim> because it uses S-Lang (however they spell it)). 

My beloved Vadik, :) there is nothing objectively "fast" about slang
and nothing "slow" about lisp. Emacs seems to be alot more
complicated then jed that's all. (maybe jed is faster just because
it meant to be "fast emacs clone"?)

Always truly yours,
borik

- ---
Boris D. Beletsky  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Network Administrator   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Institute of Computer Science,  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hebrew University Jerusalemhome: +972 2 6411880

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Re: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On 15 Apr 1997, Alair Pereira do Lago wrote:

> I do not know vi well but I do not see how it could be simpler than ctr-alt-s
> in emacs.  There, while you are filling the regular expression you can see the
> text that the incomplete regular expression is matching. If you put one letter
> more and the matching you had does not match anymore, it goes to next
> ocurrence of that regular expression you have in the text. 

Two reasons emacs is slow:
1. Lisp (jed is faster than emacs because it uses S-Lang (however they
   spell it)).
2. It does too much things on your every keystroke (like that one
   above).

You didn't type it in emacs, did you?  Emacs auto-fill mode breaks at
70th character, and you typed about 79 per line.

Vadik.

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.

Re: bi

[Alair Pereira do Lago]

Craig Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> a key point to make here is that regexps aren't difficult to learn
> because of vi, they are difficult to learn because they are complex -
> but you MUST learn them if you want to have any proficiency with unix.
> vi actually makes them easier to learn because you can play with them
> interactively.

I do not know vi well but I do not see how it could be simpler than ctr-alt-s
in emacs.  There, while you are filling the regular expression you can see the
text that the incomplete regular expression is matching. If you put one letter
more and the matching you had does not match anymore, it goes to next
ocurrence of that regular expression you have in the text. 

-- 
Alair Pereira do Lago  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Computer Science Department -- Universidade de S~ao Paulo -- Brazil

Re: bi

[Douglas L Stewart]

On 14 Apr 1997, Kai Grossjohann wrote:

> Well, vi is not the only choice.  If they're using X, why don't you
> tell them to use xedit?  It's about as braindead as pico but can do
> search and replace, so it should be very easy to use.

To take this silly editor thread a bit off-topic (and away from the
flames)...

xedit?  You mean the old CMS editor? :-)

Or did someone write an editor that runs under the X-Window system and
call it xedit?

-douglas

Re: bi

[Kai Grossjohann]

> Jason Costomiris writes:


  Jason> I get calls from users all the time asking "How do I search
  Jason> and replace in my file?"  9 times out of 10, they are using
  Jason> pico, which has to be the most brain dead editor ever
  Jason> created.  I always tell them, use vi, [...]

Well, vi is not the only choice.  If they're using X, why don't you
tell them to use xedit?  It's about as braindead as pico but can do
search and replace, so it should be very easy to use.

Then, there's nedit which has a nice Motif feel to it so Windoze users
will love it instantly.

For my part, I use Emacs and I think that simple things are easy to do
in Emacs so Emacs isn't unsuited for beginners at all.

kai
-- 
Two caf\'e au lait please, but without milk.
(American tourist in paris.)

Re: bi

[Britton]

> > I stay versed in vi commands because I have to be, not because I want
> > to be. There may be a better bare-bones editor for debian than ae, but
> > it should not be vi.
> 
> no, it should be vi because that is the standard unix text editor. you
> want something else, then install something elsebut every unix
> system should have vi installed. unix without vi is like unix without
> sh.
> 
> IMO, the base system should have vi AND some crappy editor like ae or
> pico, with some note saying "if you can't use vi, then XXX is installed"

I'll second this.  vi, or vi AND something else.  Not just something else.

RE: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> Sorry.  I was watching these vi msgs go back and forth and had to jump in and
> make it worse.  I think everyone should use whatever they want to.  I agree
> 100% about emacs.  I have better things to do than to memorize all that crap.
> That's why I use the GUI version, menu's.

Editors whould use keys, not mouse.  I use both emacs and vi, so I can
say: to edit with vi, you need the keys iaxX"dd"u.(dot) and maybe
(if you have a really dumb tty) hjkl.  To change a config file, you
don't need to use all the power of vi.  Well, sometimes I change
config files with ed, although I don't think of myself as one who
*knows* ed.

> I think the original reason for this endless thread was to discuss the best
> editor for a base install.  One of the points I tried to get across is that a
> newbie won't be able to use any editor that isn't either similar to an M$
> editor (not edlin) or that doesn't have a menu of some kind, such as ae.

When I saw Unix first time, I was taught vi.  5 minutes lesson + brief
explanation of man(1).  Put 5 lines explaining vi behaviour in the
installation guide, and that will be enough.

Vadik.

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.

Re: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Craig Sanders wrote:

> IMO, the base system should have vi AND some crappy editor like ae or
> pico, with some note saying "if you can't use vi, then XXX is installed"

s/XXX/ed/

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.

RE: bi

[Pete Templin]

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> Sorry.  I was watching these vi msgs go back and forth and had to jump in and
> make it worse.  I think everyone should use whatever they want to.  I agree
> 100% about emacs.  I have better things to do than to memorize all that crap.
>  That's why I use the GUI version, menu's.

Agreed.  Let's chill this thread a bit, folks.  Everyone, go back to your
computers and use an editor, any editor.  :)

Pete

--
Peter J. Templin, Jr.   Client Services Analyst
Computer & Communication Services   tel: (717) 524-1590
Bucknell University [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: bi

[Carey Evans]

Ralph Winslow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > Teco.
> > 
> When you've said teco, you've said it all!  vi is superb, and emacs (for
> those who've spent the weeks required to master it) is way cool, but
> teco RULES!!!  Anybody out there have the source for the greatest text
> editor cum programming language in the known universe??

ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/apps/editors/tty/teco.tar.gz>

-- 
Carey Evans  <*>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 "Double, double, toil and trouble, /
   Fire burn and cauldron bubble."

RE: bi

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-


On 12-Apr-97 Jason Costomiris wrote:
>I never said the various emacsen couldn't do it.  I find emacs very
>confusing.  47 bazillion different "modes" to do everything, a googleplex
>of command key sequences, and sucks RAM like it's going out of style.
>Sounds like something straight out of Redmond.  Even the modes lack a
>redeeming quality, being written in LISP a language that uses more
>parentheses than actual code.
>
>> Why go back to a command shell editor when I can use a GUI editor?
>
>You want a GUI so bad?  gvim.
>
>> vi had it's time.  Time to move on.  There are better editors now.
>
>Better for who?  I like vi.  Who are you to tell me that I can't use my
>favorite editor?  I even have a copy of vim on my PowerBook.

Sorry.  I was watching these vi msgs go back and forth and had to jump in and
make it worse.  I think everyone should use whatever they want to.  I agree
100% about emacs.  I have better things to do than to memorize all that crap.
 That's why I use the GUI version, menu's.

After seeing remarks like - tell them to use jove, if they can't handle it
give 'em a pencil and eraser.  I wanted to jump in.  vi-hards try to make
those that won't use it look like less than they are or something.  A persons
choice of editors has nothing to do with what they can do on a *nix system.

I think the original reason for this endless thread was to discuss the best
editor for a base install.  One of the points I tried to get across is that a
newbie won't be able to use any editor that isn't either similar to an M$
editor (not edlin) or that doesn't have a menu of some kind, such as ae.

Anyway.  Sorry for raising your blood pressure.

Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 02:37:47
- --

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RE: bi

[Jason Costomiris]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> I do search and replace in Xemacs all the time.  I'm fairly sure that regular
> emacs will do it too.

I never said the various emacsen couldn't do it.  I find emacs very
confusing.  47 bazillion different "modes" to do everything, a googleplex
of command key sequences, and sucks RAM like it's going out of style.
Sounds like something straight out of Redmond.  Even the modes lack a
redeeming quality, being written in LISP a language that uses more
parentheses than actual code.

> Why go back to a command shell editor when I can use a GUI editor?

You want a GUI so bad?  gvim.

> vi had it's time.  Time to move on.  There are better editors now.

Better for who?  I like vi.  Who are you to tell me that I can't use my
favorite editor?  I even have a copy of vim on my PowerBook.

Jason Costomiris | Finger for PGP 2.6.2 Public Key
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | "There is a fine line between idiocy
My employers like me, but not| and genius.  We aim to erase that line"
enough to let me speak for them. |  --Unknown

http://www.jasons.org/~jcostom

Re: bi

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Why not just echo > text.file and echo >> text.file??

Or maybe use this to write a small C program that will write the text file?

Just kidding.  I know all these things play important roles.  I just don't
believe in buying a convertible and never putting the top down or buying a
Corvett and driving it at half the speed limit all the time.

I guess the years I spent in M.I. using the line editors on the unix systems
we used broke me.  When they finally put a full screen editor in I was born
again.

Anyway.  To each his own.

On 12-Apr-97 Richard Sharman wrote:
>Jason Costomiris writes:
> > On 11 Apr 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > > > THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!
> > > 
> > > Teco.
> > 
> > Bwah.  Real men edit with cat, sed, awk, head and tail.  Better yet, they
> > write directly to the disk with a hex sector editor.
> > 
>
>
>sed, head AND tail?   Isn't that a bit extravagent?
>head -4 f==   sed 4q f
>
>Actually, if you have awk I don't think you need sed.
>
>
>Here's head and tail with awk
>
>
>
>Head() {
>   awk "(NR > $1) {exit} {print}" $2
>}
>
>Tail() {
>   n=`wc -l $2 | awk "{print \\$1 - $1}"`
>   awk "( NR < $n ) {next} {print}" $2
>}
>
>The syntax is a little different,  use Head 4 f  instead of head -4 f
>
>
>% Head 4 f
>line 1
>line 2
>line 3
>line 4
>% Tail 4 f
>line 6
>line 7
>line 8
>line 9
>line 10
>% 
>
>If you have tac,  tail is much easier:
>
>% tac f | Head 4 - | tac
>line 7
>line 8
>line 9
>line 10
>% 
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 12-Apr-97 
   Time: 01:01:39
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Re: bi

[Richard Sharman]

Jason Costomiris writes:
 > On 11 Apr 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > 
 > > > THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!
 > > 
 > > Teco.
 > 
 > Bwah.  Real men edit with cat, sed, awk, head and tail.  Better yet, they
 > write directly to the disk with a hex sector editor.
 > 


sed, head AND tail?   Isn't that a bit extravagent?
head -4 f==   sed 4q f

Actually, if you have awk I don't think you need sed.


Here's head and tail with awk



Head() {
awk "(NR > $1) {exit} {print}" $2
}

Tail() {
n=`wc -l $2 | awk "{print \\$1 - $1}"`
awk "( NR < $n ) {next} {print}" $2
}

The syntax is a little different,  use Head 4 f  instead of head -4 f


% Head 4 f
line 1
line 2
line 3
line 4
% Tail 4 f
line 6
line 7
line 8
line 9
line 10
% 

If you have tac,  tail is much easier:

% tac f | Head 4 - | tac
line 7
line 8
line 9
line 10
% 

Re: bi

[Craig Sanders]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, mike horansky wrote:

> vi is a modal editor, so has a much steeper learning curve than
> something like ae.

modal vs modeless isn't the only criterion for difficulty - there are
many other factors involved.

the more complex things about vi can be difficult to learn, but you
dont have to learn them all at once. you can run vi knowing only that
i=insert, esc=finish insert, d=delete, and the cursor movement keys
(arrows or hjkl).

vi appears to be difficult when you first start using it, but it is
actually extremely simple. there is an amazing consistency in the vi
user interface - unlike many so-called 'modeless' editors, you don't
have to learn different sequences of keystrokes (or worse, mouse clicks)
depending on what mode (aka "dialog box") you're in. There are only two
modes: 1) text entry / insert mode and 2) edit mode (":" command mode is
just an extension to the edit mode). pressing ESC will always get you
back to command mode.

it took me only a few weeks from when i started with knowledge as basic
as that to get to the point of feeling confident about some of the more
complicated operations like how the Yank buffer worked, and using 'm'
to mark the current cursor position, and regexp search & replace rather
than string literal S&R.

a key point to make here is that regexps aren't difficult to learn
because of vi, they are difficult to learn because they are complex -
but you MUST learn them if you want to have any proficiency with unix.
vi actually makes them easier to learn because you can play with them
interactively.

like many things in unix, regexps aren't difficult when you know them,
when you've learned the one or two fundamental concepts behind them -
after that, once you understand them they make perfect sense and you
wonder how you ever did without them.

once you have learnt regexps, you can use them in many other unix
programs: ed, sed, awk, perl, less, and many others.

> I stay versed in vi commands because I have to be, not because I want
> to be. There may be a better bare-bones editor for debian than ae, but
> it should not be vi.

no, it should be vi because that is the standard unix text editor. you
want something else, then install something elsebut every unix
system should have vi installed. unix without vi is like unix without
sh.

IMO, the base system should have vi AND some crappy editor like ae or
pico, with some note saying "if you can't use vi, then XXX is installed"

craig

Re: bi

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Maybe you should upgrade your computer if your resources are that bad off.

I do fifty things at once in X without a problem.  Hmm?

On 11-Apr-97 Ralph Winslow wrote:
>Rick wrote:
>> 
>
>> My point is if Linux is moving forward in time why do vi-hards get
up-in-arms
>> about it being left out.  vi is good for what it is.  I think it should
move
>> into the GUI world since it is really too much for this application.  
>
>What would one need a real editor for in the GUI world? You don't need a
>text editor for playing Tetris and Solitaire, do you?  One only needs a
>real text editor when one is trying to accomplish some work, and one
>wouldn't want to piss away 97% of one's system resources on color and
>mouse handling and reshaping windows and crap like that, ... would one?
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 11-Apr-97 
   Time: 19:37:19
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RE: bi

[Craig Sanders]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> I do search and replace in Xemacs all the time. I'm fairly sure that
> regular emacs will do it too.
>
> My point is if Linux is moving forward in time why do vi-hards get
> up-in-arms about it being left out. vi is good for what it is. I
> think it should move into the GUI world since it is really too much
> for this application. To fix a broken install you need a simple,
> self-contained, small editor.

vi *IS* a simple, self-contained, small editor. its "bells & whistles"
are in its command set and powerful features, not in time-wasting,
memory-hogging frills like graphical user interface.

also, its user interface is consistent with other important/useful
programs like less and more

> If I want to do wordprocessing I'll use Xemacs. I use X because I like
> it.

text editing and word processing are two completely different
applications.

if i want to edit a config file or some source code or write an email
message i'll use a text editor.

if i want to write a letter or report or something i'll use a word
processor (actually, for anything over a page or so i'll enter the
bulk of the text in a text editor and then load it into a WP for final
markup)

> Why go back to a command shell editor when I can use a GUI editor?

vi isn't a 'command shell editor'. it's a text editor. 

one good reason for using a simple text editor like vi is so that you
don't have to take your hands off the keyboard to use the mouse.

> vi had it's time. Time to move on. There are better editors now.

no, there are no better editors.  there are programs which are better suited
to different tasks (like word processing) but you cant beat a simple text
interface for editing text.

craig

Re: bi

[mike horansky]

Ralph Winslow wrote:
> 
> Rick wrote:
> > 
> 
> > My point is if Linux is moving forward in time why do vi-hards get 
> > up-in-arms
> > about it being left out.  vi is good for what it is.  I think it should move
> > into the GUI world since it is really too much for this application.  
> 
> What would one need a real editor for in the GUI world? You don't need a
> text editor for playing Tetris and Solitaire, do you?  One only needs a
> real text editor when one is trying to accomplish some work, and one
> wouldn't want to piss away 97% of one's system resources on color and
> mouse handling and reshaping windows and crap like that, ... would one?
> 

vi is a modal editor, so has a much steeper learning curve than
something like ae. I stay versed in vi commands because I have to be,
not because I want to be. There may be a better bare-bones editor for
debian than ae, but it should not be vi.


-- 
-Mike Horansky, Leland Consultant (http://consult.stanford.edu/)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

OPINIONS EXPRESSED BY ME ARE NOT NECESSARILY SHARED BY MY EMPLOYERS.

Re: bi

[Ralph Winslow]

Rick wrote:
> 

> My point is if Linux is moving forward in time why do vi-hards get up-in-arms
> about it being left out.  vi is good for what it is.  I think it should move
> into the GUI world since it is really too much for this application.  

What would one need a real editor for in the GUI world? You don't need a
text editor for playing Tetris and Solitaire, do you?  One only needs a
real text editor when one is trying to accomplish some work, and one
wouldn't want to piss away 97% of one's system resources on color and
mouse handling and reshaping windows and crap like that, ... would one?

RE: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Jason Costomiris wrote:

> I get calls from users all the time asking "How do I search and replacein
> my file?"  9 times out of 10, they are using pico, which has to be the
> most brain dead editor ever created.

Except ae (may Debian forgive me).
Vadik.

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.

Re: bi

[Vadim Vygonets]

On 11 Apr 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Miquel van Smoorenburg writes:
> > Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all.
> 
> Teco.

Heard of it, never saw it.  Where can I find it?  (Seriously, maybe
I'm a pervert, but I want to see it -- please tell me where one can
find it).

Perversely yours,
Vadik.

--
Vadim Vygonets * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Unix admin
If you think C++ is not overly complicated, just what is a protected
abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor, and when was
the last time you needed one?  -- Tom Cargil, C++ Journal, Fall 1990.

Re: bi

[Ralph Winslow]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Miquel van Smoorenburg writes:

> > ...
> > THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!
> 
> Teco.
> 
When you've said teco, you've said it all!  vi is superb, and emacs (for
those who've spent the weeks required to master it) is way cool, but
teco RULES!!!  Anybody out there have the source for the greatest text
editor cum programming language in the known universe??

> John Hasler
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
> Dancing Horse Hill
> Elmwood, WI

RE: bi

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

I do search and replace in Xemacs all the time.  I'm fairly sure that regular
emacs will do it too.

My point is if Linux is moving forward in time why do vi-hards get up-in-arms
about it being left out.  vi is good for what it is.  I think it should move
into the GUI world since it is really too much for this application.  To fix
a broken install you need a simple, self-contained, small editor.

If I want to do wordprocessing I'll use Xemacs.  I use X because I like it. 
Why go back to a command shell editor when I can use a GUI editor?

vi had it's time.  Time to move on.  There are better editors now.

On 11-Apr-97 Jason Costomiris wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:
>
>> What is it that is so special about vi?  Does it decompile programs or
write
>> them all by itself or leap tall buildings with a single bound?
>
>I get calls from users all the time asking "How do I search and replace in
>my file?"  9 times out of 10, they are using pico, which has to be the
>most brain dead editor ever created.  I always tell them, use vi, and
>then:
>
>:g/search-regexp/s//replace-string/g
>
>Voila.  Takes about 3 seconds to type it and change every instance of some
>expression in an entire file.  Could be handy if you suddenly realize that
>you've been misspelling some guy's name throughout your 50 page thesis.
>
>I tell them to use vi, they wretch, much like you seem to be.  They ask if
>there's something else.  I then tell them:
>
>perl -pi.bak -e 's/search-regexp/replace-string/g' filename
>
>  and then they go into convulsions.  Then they waste a bazillion years
>ftp'ing their file to their Windoze box, make the changes using Notepad,
>and then ftp it back in binary mode, thus munging the end of lines, and
>then call me again for help, asking why there are all of these funny ^M's
>on the end of their lines.  Argh.
>
>Jason Costomiris | Finger for PGP 2.6.2 Public Key
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] | "There is a fine line between idiocy
>My employers like me, but not   | and genius.  We aim to erase that line"
>enough to let me speak for them. | --Unknown
>
>   http://www.jasons.org/~jcostom
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 11-Apr-97 
   Time: 17:22:43
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RE: bi

[Paul Wade]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Jason Costomiris wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:
> 
> > What is it that is so special about vi?  Does it decompile programs or write
> > them all by itself or leap tall buildings with a single bound?
> 
> I get calls from users all the time asking "How do I search and replace in
> my file?"  9 times out of 10, they are using pico, which has to be the
> most brain dead editor ever created.  I always tell them, use vi, and
> then:
> 
> :g/search-regexp/s//replace-string/g
> 
> Voila.  Takes about 3 seconds to type it and change every instance of some
> expression in an entire file.  Could be handy if you suddenly realize that
> you've been misspelling some guy's name throughout your 50 page thesis.
> 
> I tell them to use vi, they wretch, much like you seem to be.  They ask if
> there's something else.  I then tell them:
> 
> perl -pi.bak -e 's/search-regexp/replace-string/g' filename
> 
>   and then they go into convulsions.  Then they waste a bazillion years
> ftp'ing their file to their Windoze box, make the changes using Notepad,
> and then ftp it back in binary mode, thus munging the end of lines, and
> then call me again for help, asking why there are all of these funny ^M's
> on the end of their lines.  Argh.

Tell them to install joe. If they can't figure out how to use joe, give
them a pencil (with eraser) and paper.

+--+
+ Paul Wade Greenbush Technologies Corporation +
+ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.greenbush.com/ +
+--+
+ http://www.wtop.com/What does W.T.O.P. mean? +
+--+

Re: bi

[Jason Costomiris]

On 11 Apr 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!
> 
> Teco.

Bwah.  Real men edit with cat, sed, awk, head and tail.  Better yet, they
write directly to the disk with a hex sector editor.

Jason Costomiris | Finger for PGP 2.6.2 Public Key
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | "There is a fine line between idiocy
My employers like me, but not| and genius.  We aim to erase that line"
enough to let me speak for them. |  --Unknown

http://www.jasons.org/~jcostom

RE: bi

[Jason Costomiris]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> What is it that is so special about vi?  Does it decompile programs or write
> them all by itself or leap tall buildings with a single bound?

I get calls from users all the time asking "How do I search and replace in
my file?"  9 times out of 10, they are using pico, which has to be the
most brain dead editor ever created.  I always tell them, use vi, and
then:

:g/search-regexp/s//replace-string/g

Voila.  Takes about 3 seconds to type it and change every instance of some
expression in an entire file.  Could be handy if you suddenly realize that
you've been misspelling some guy's name throughout your 50 page thesis.

I tell them to use vi, they wretch, much like you seem to be.  They ask if
there's something else.  I then tell them:

perl -pi.bak -e 's/search-regexp/replace-string/g' filename

...  and then they go into convulsions.  Then they waste a bazillion years
ftp'ing their file to their Windoze box, make the changes using Notepad,
and then ftp it back in binary mode, thus munging the end of lines, and
then call me again for help, asking why there are all of these funny ^M's
on the end of their lines.  Argh.

Jason Costomiris | Finger for PGP 2.6.2 Public Key
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | "There is a fine line between idiocy
My employers like me, but not| and genius.  We aim to erase that line"
enough to let me speak for them. |  --Unknown

http://www.jasons.org/~jcostom

Re: bi

[jghasler]

Miquel van Smoorenburg writes:
> Ed, man!  !man ed
> ...
> Computer Scientists love ed
> ...
> RUNS ED!!
> ...
> ...the mighty ed...
> ...
> Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all.
> ED IS THE TRUE PATH TO NIRVANA!
> ...
> THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!

Teco.

John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI

Re: bi

[Leslie Mikesell]

> I'm going to finally ask this question.
> 
> What is it that is so special about vi?  Does it decompile programs or write
> them all by itself or leap tall buildings with a single bound?

It works from any keyboard, you don't need arrows, f-keys or other
unlikely stuff.  You keep your hands on the keyboard all the time
even when doing search commands, etc. With only a couple of exceptions
everything takes exactly the same syntax [count] [range] command [escape]
so you always type what you mean.  For example a typical sequence is
/old text (find old text)
2cwreplacement words (change 2 words)
n(find next occurance)
.(repeat change)

Is anything really easier or less keyboard-intensive than that?

> Really.  I've been on unix boxes for about 7 years and only used vi when I
> had no other choice.  Is there some hidden, undocumented functionallity to it?

It's all documented somewhere.  Insert a row of '= ' with 35i =.
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
convert columns of 'Last, First' to 'First Last' with 
:%s/^\(.*\), \(.*\)/\2 \1/
(and if it doesn't work right the first time, just 'u'ndo).

Build complicated ex mode commands in the edit buffer itself or read in
some you've done before, delete to a register, execute the register
and if it doesn't quite work you can undo, yank back the text of the
command and fix it.  With other editors if your complicated transformations
don't work you usually get to make the same typing mistake all over again
because they think commands are somehow magically different from the
text. Also ex mode is good for scripting things that don't work in
sed (like ':$-10d' to delete the 10'th line from the end).

Les Mikesell
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  

RE: bi

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Are you saying that I should use vi all the time so I know what to do when I
have no other choice?  Or are you saying that vi is a solid standby editor to
use in an emergency and you don't understand why ppl use it all the time?

On 11-Apr-97 Rick Macdonald wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:
>
>> Really.  I've been on unix boxes for about 7 years and only used vi when I
>> had no other choice.  
>
>That's it, exactly. When you have no other choice. Some people seem
>to force themselves to use it _all_ the time, just they they know what to do 
>when they have no other choice. Go figure.
>
>RickM...
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 11-Apr-97 
   Time: 11:42:40
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Re: bi

[Miquel van Smoorenburg]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Rick Macdonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:
>
>> Really.  I've been on unix boxes for about 7 years and only used vi when I
>> had no other choice.  
>
>That's it, exactly. When you have no other choice. Some people seem
>to force themselves to use it _all_ the time, just they they know what to do 
>when they have no other choice. Go figure.

I want "ed" on the base disks. Explanation follows.

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Patrick J. LoPresti)
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (News system)
> Subject: The True Path (long)
> Date: 11 Jul 91 03:17:31 GMT
> Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs,alt.slack
> Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

When I log into my Xenix system with my 110 baud teletype, both vi
*and* Emacs are just too damn slow.  They print useless messages like,
'C-h for help' and '"foo" File is read only'.  So I use the editor
that doesn't waste my VALUABLE time.

Ed, man!  !man ed

ED(1)   UNIX Programmer's ManualED(1)

NAME
 ed - text editor

SYNOPSIS
 ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ]
DESCRIPTION
 Ed is the standard text editor.
-

Computer Scientists love ed, not just because it comes first
alphabetically, but because it's the standard.  Everyone else loves ed
because it's ED!

"Ed is the standard text editor."

And ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair.  Just look:

-rwxr-xr-x  1 root  24 Oct 29  1929 /bin/ed
-rwxr-xr-t  4 root 1310720 Jan  1  1970 /usr/ucb/vi
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root  5.89824e37 Oct 22  1990 /usr/bin/emacs

Of course, on the system *I* administrate, vi is symlinked to ed.
Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog
message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K;
and 3) RUNS ED!!

"Ed is the standard text editor."

Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed:

golem> ed

?
help
?
?
?
quit
?
exit
?
bye
?
hello? 
?
eat flaming death
?
^C
?
^C
?
^D
?

---
Note the consistent user interface and error reportage.  Ed is
generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm
the novice with verbosity.

"Ed is the standard text editor."

Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all.

ED IS THE TRUE PATH TO NIRVANA!  ED HAS BEEN THE CHOICE OF EDUCATED
AND IGNORANT ALIKE FOR CENTURIES!  ED WILL NOT CORRUPT YOUR PRECIOUS
BODILY FLUIDS!!  ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR!  ED MAKES THE SUN
SHINE AND THE BIRDS SING AND THE GRASS GREEN!!

When I use an editor, I don't want eight extra KILOBYTES of worthless
help screens and cursor positioning code!  I just want an EDitor!!
Not a "viitor".  Not a "emacsitor".  Those aren't even WORDS ED!
ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!!!

TEXT EDITOR.

When IBM, in its ever-present omnipotence, needed to base their
"edlin" on a UNIX standard, did they mimic vi?  No.  Emacs?  Surely
you jest.  They chose the most karmic editor of all.  The standard.

Ed is for those who can *remember* what they are working on.  If you
are an idiot, you should use Emacs.  If you are an Emacs, you should
not be vi.  If you use ED, you are on THE PATH TO REDEMPTION.  THE
SO-CALLED "VISUAL" EDITORS HAVE BEEN PLACED HERE BY ED TO TEMPT THE
FAITHLESS.  DO NOT GIVE IN!!!  THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!

Mike.

RE: bi

[Rick Macdonald]

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Rick wrote:

> Really.  I've been on unix boxes for about 7 years and only used vi when I
> had no other choice.  

That's it, exactly. When you have no other choice. Some people seem
to force themselves to use it _all_ the time, just they they know what to do 
when they have no other choice. Go figure.

...RickM...

RE: bi

[Rick]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

I'm going to finally ask this question.

What is it that is so special about vi?  Does it decompile programs or write
them all by itself or leap tall buildings with a single bound?

Really.  I've been on unix boxes for about 7 years and only used vi when I
had no other choice.  Is there some hidden, undocumented functionallity to it?


On 11-Apr-97 Rick Hawkins wrote:
>
>
>> Apart from the fact that I need a vi, many new users won't ever use
>> vi if they find it.  vi is a tool for freaks, hackers and gurus (therefore
>> it's a very good editor for us...). 
>
>I only wish i could remember all the vi i knew , gad, 13 years ago? I got
here, hit 
>unxix again, but everything defaulted to emacs.  And i keep trying to do
things that i 
>once knew how to do . . .
>
>rick
>
Have a good one.

- --
Rick Jones  E-Mail: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Date: 11-Apr-97 
   Time: 11:15:32
- --

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bi

[Rick Hawkins]

> Apart from the fact that I need a vi, many new users won't ever use
> vi if they find it.  vi is a tool for freaks, hackers and gurus (therefore
> it's a very good editor for us...). 

I only wish i could remember all the vi i knew , gad, 13 years ago? I got here, 
hit 
unxix again, but everything defaulted to emacs.  And i keep trying to do things 
that i 
once knew how to do . . .

rick